Hidden Signs of Narcissistic Relationships

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(upbeat music) - Hi, I'm Kyle Kittleson with MedCircle joined by the final word on narcissism, clinical psychologist Dr. Ramani, we're talking about a very popular topic, narcissistic abuse, specifically the timeline that can often occur from the start to the end of such a vicious cycle. We talk about narcissistic abuse a lot but we don't really dive into the short-term and long-term effects, that the person can experience who, or that the person can have when they experience this. Let's start with what narcissistic looks like actually. - So narcissistic abuse is maybe we could call it. It's a syndrome looking for a name. And in fact, I don't, you know how we said we don't love the name, borderline personality disorder, I actually kind of don't love the name, narcissistic abuse. It's what everyone's using. Another thing we could probably call this is antagonal relational abuse because I think that that uses language that's more diagnostically familiar. But whatever you call it, this is a pattern and an experience a person has when they are in a relationship where they're with somebody who has a high conflict, rigid, antagonistic, entitled, egocentric, dysregulated style. Okay? So that's the nice way of saying all that without saying the word narcissist. And so it's a relationship that's characterized by dismissiveness, invalidation, manipulation like gaslighting, minimization, lots of entitlement and lots of dysregulated rage. It's just a really uncomfortable space for a person. And over time, especially if a person doesn't understand what they're up against, because many people in these so-called narcissistic relationships, blame themselves. They say, this is my fault, maybe I need to do what they're saying. Maybe I'm not being nice enough, I'm not being intimate enough, I'm not being thin enough. I'm not being clean enough. I'm not being smart enough. I'm not being enough, enough, whatever it is. And so the person exhausts themselves in an attempt to deliver on the impossible ask of the narcissist, right? And over time, people who are survivors of this experience have sort of a very specific set of psychological symptoms. The most central symptoms we see in people who are experiencing narcissistic abuse are patterns like confusion, diminished self-esteem, anxiety, some depressive symptoms, including sadness, sometimes even anger and irritability, lots of rumination. Can't stop thinking about it, because they can't fix it. And helplessness, hopelessness and powerlessness. The symptoms go on a lot wider than that. And in fact, I tend to break the symptoms down into sort of six categories. There's all the, sort of the patterns associated with changes in thinking in a survivor of narcissistic abuse. They ruminate a lot. There's a lot of regret, again that helplessness, the confusion. Some of them get caught up in this loop of perfectionism. "If I could only get it just right "then I'll win the narcissist over." There's a lot of interpersonal stuff. People going through narcissistic abuse feel very lonely because they feel as though nobody understands this sort of unique circumstance they're in, because remember narcissists often show a very sunny face to the world. So a lot of times people think that you're the luckiest person in the world to be in this relationship. They can also feel very socially isolated, as well as a lot of shame of, "How the heck did I get myself into this experience?" There can be a lot of what I call symptoms of perception and arousal. They can be very hypervigilant always walking on eggshells, always on edge. Am I gonna say the wrong thing? Am I gonna do the wrong thing? They can have difficulties with concentration. There are the symptoms around what we call self and identity. So these are things like a person has a lot of self doubt. There's a lot of self blame. There's a lot of self devaluation. Like I said, real decrements in self-esteem. On the emotional front, all that depression, the anxiety, apathy, low energy, grief. And then in the physical and the health realm 'cause this does affect people's health. You'll see challenges with sleep. You'll see people will be reporting a lot more physical health issues. A lot of them are symptoms of stress and tension, headaches, muscle tension, but it is a lot of chronic stress. So you can sometimes see diminishments in immune function. So people may actually get sick more often or it might make the existing illness like diabetes, for example, the course of that maybe become more problematic. People also don't take good care of themselves when they're in these relationships, you're devaluing yourself so much. You may not take your medications the right way, you may not exercise as much. You may not engage in a healthy diet. You may also use unhealthy coping, like using drugs and alcohol, smoking, spending money, things like that. And people with this pattern, report a lot of fatigue. So you can see it takes in a lot of territory. And by and large, in the clients I work with who have this, or are experiencing this syndrome, have symptoms in all six of those categories. - You mentioned at the top of your answer that oftentimes people who start to experience this narcissistic abuse, will try to become the person that they believe will stop the abuse. So they will try to appease the abuser, which is futile, I assume. I believe that because I have this education on narcissism, that once I saw the abuse, I would be able to cut ties and move away. What causes somebody though, to experience the abuse and try to accommodate the abuser rather than experiencing the abuse and moving away? - Right? So that's all comes down to an experience that's unique to any kind of abusive relationship, including a narcissistic relationship called cognitive dissonance. Cognitive dissonance refers to our challenges with keeping two sorts of opposing thoughts in our mind at the same time. And it's a dynamic that is actually far worse for people, who've actually been histories of toxic or dysfunctional family systems that they grew up in, or trauma and abuse in those settings. Because what cognitive dissonance is the most classical example of cognitive dissonance is the one from Aesop's Fable where the Fox couldn't get the grapes. And what does the Fox say about the grapes? He's jumping and jumping and the grapes are so big and so juicy. And so delicious looking, Fox jumps, Fox jumps Fox can't get the grapes. What does the Fox then say? "Well, I bet those grapes were sour anyhow, right?" So the Fox makes a justification for not being able to get the grapes, because he's just gonna walk away from the beautiful grapes, and to make that more comfortable he had to tell himself the grapes were sour. Now turn that story in the other direction for survivors of narcissistic abuse. "Person's abusing me, person's invalidating, "person's manipulating me, person is cruel to me. "Person is entitled, person's yelling at me." Okay, you're right. All of that should be assigned to leave. "But this is my partner. "This is my family, right?" And so, especially if you learn to make those justifications as a kid, like you get a parent like this, "Well, daddy's just angry, daddy's just tired. "Daddy had a hard day at work. "Mommy worked so hard. "Mommy's been cleaning all day." We justify, justify, justify, justification lets us stay in the relationship, right? Because the idea of leaving it is actually feels too scary, especially again, and it's this idea of staying in a abusive relationship or a toxic relationship long past its shelf life is called trauma bonding. So people in narcissistically abusive relationships do tend to be trauma bonded and they have heavy cognitive dissonance. It's very difficult to break away and either say, "I am going to stay with this person who I know is abusive "and I'm staying, and I know why I'm staying "'cause I'm saying for money or kids or whatever "and I'm aware they're gonna keep abusing me." That's a much more honest depiction of what's happening. The biggest thing that holds a lot of survivors of narcissistic abuse back is lack of knowledge, which is the central work I do, which is to educate people on this. So for them to know, most centrally narcissistic patterns don't change. And number two, their pattern is not your fault. And so, once you understand those two things, like, "Oh this is never gonna change. "You're telling me when they retire, "it's not gonna change?" No. "When they get the promotion, it's not gonna change?" Mm-mm (negative) "When we move is not gonna change?" Mm-mm-mm. "When the kids grow up?" No, nothing, never. - When you have a kid it's not gonna change. - Nothing. Have a kid, don't have a kid, get married, don't get married. Retired, go on vacation. No, no, no, no. And that's something, I work with clients on called radical acceptance. It's not gonna change. So if you decide to stay, I can get down with that, but you're not staying in this dissonant state. You're not justifying their behavior saying, "This person is really unhealthy and awful and bad for me. "And I'm staying for very practical reasons "because right now I don't wanna dismantle this. "So that means I need to be in therapy. "I need to take care of myself. "I need to develop healthier relationships. "I need to have realistic expectations." You see what I'm saying? That's it. It's like now you're staying, but with your eyes wide open, rather than in this rather blind, justifying space. - There are people who just heard you say that and their hearts sunk to their foot. - I know. - They are clinging for the hope that this person will change. They believe if they work hard enough, if they read enough books, if they watch enough videos, this person will change. They've heard of stories where a husband cheated on his wife, but then finally came to terms with it, and now they're happy. And they're the happiest they've ever been. You're saying, no, stop, stop. - Stop, you can't. And people get mad, and I'll be Frank with you, Kyle, some people live in that dissonance space, all their lives. I'm sad for them because it's sometimes a half of a life, but they're also potentially dangerous those people who stay dissonant because they keep spreading the gospel of enabling. So, which is not, that's not okay because then they might tell someone else who's going through this. "Well, they are stressed "and you shouldn't be so judgmental (mumbles)" So that's a lot of the dismantling. That's how that happens here. But that's how people get stuck. And that's how knowledge sets people free. And so to do realistic expectations. But Kyle, it's not that simple because some people go through this process of radical acceptance and they get it and they leave. And it's not all moonbeams and rainbows and unicorns when they leave, there's grief, there's regret. There's anger, a time lost. There's the fact that if they're co-parenting they still have to have relatively regular contact with this person. There's the idea of, "Okay, I had to let go "of my narcissistic mother, so now what? "I don't have a family of origin. "I don't have that safe harbor." There's grief around that. This isn't as like walking off into a bright future. Now don't get me wrong. Choosing between which is healthier for you or not probably setting those boundaries. And it doesn't mean you've cut the person off. You've written them a sort of a dear John letter, and sent them on their way. It's not that, in some cases, it's that you've really erected some really strong, tall boundaries. You don't engage in the same way, you're much more careful in your engagement. So it may mean you still get to go to the family weddings and family get togethers, but with a much wise mind going into it. You're not then saying, "I don't understand why mom's not interested in me." Like, "My mom's not interested in me, it's all good. "I'm just here for my cousin's wedding." And so you're able to hear it, not with the sorrow of a five-year-old child that's not being seen, but with the grace and the height of an adult who finally sees the situation clearly. - Well said. When narcissistic abuse starts initially, does that abuse look different than the abuse that may occur down the line? - Oh, that's a great question, Kyle. So when we are talking about intimate relationships, like staying in that space, 'cause that's a little bit more unique. You meet someone and there's a whole process. The narcissistic relationship has a very unique architecture to it. It tends to start with a period that's popularly often called love bombing. It's a period characterized by idealization and seduction and winning someone over. And this can be grand gestures like 100 roses or something like that. This can be smaller gestures just by being super empathic and super interested in your life. But, it's definitely sort of romantic and overwhelming, that then pretty soon thereafter probably anywhere from eight to 12 weeks, if you're lucky sometimes as little as six weeks, goes into something, we called devaluation. It's no, the 100 dozen roses aren't showing up anymore. In fact, it tends to be more, a dismissiveness, contempt, more interested in their phone than you. You're like, everyone says this after the first three months. "I want that person back." I'm like, honey, that person never existed. So good luck with that. So, "I want that back, "I want those first three months back." And they will spend the next year or two waiting for the first three months, not realizing that was a short-term moment and then it's devaluation. And then in some point, in many cases it ends up in what's called discarding. Now discarding doesn't necessarily mean that they leave. Okay, and move away. Discarding can mean they do leave. Discarding can mean that you leave, okay. Discarding can also mean that they've really disengaged from the relationship. It's no longer really a relationship. Discarding can mean that they stay in the relationship, but they're unfaithful or something like that, make different choices. And then if there's some form of discard and let's say either you leave or they leave, somebody ends it, in a significant proportion of cases, but not all, there's a period called hoovering. Where they will often suck you back in. And this will often happen as soon as people set boundaries with a narcissist. So they're like, "This is going nowhere." So they cool off on the narcissist. They start cultivating their own interests and all that. Then all of a sudden the narcissist sensing that you're pulling away they try to suck you back in. Then that whole idealization starts again, and you can see how the cycle keeps playing out over and over again. In the early phases, the narcissistic abuse is a bit more confusing, right? So people are actually, you would think that well, they're new in it, won't they spy it quicker? Not necessarily, because so many people are so wowed initially by all that's happening and they want it to be what it is. So they start justifying. And then the difference is that early on, you're not so deep into it. So it doesn't feel like you're sunk so much resource in it. The longer a person is exposed to narcissistic abuse the more harmful it's effects. I do believe that it's cumulative that over time a person gets much more riddled with the self-doubt. With the confusion, the self devaluation, the isolation, they pull themselves out of their own lives. They pull themselves out of their own aspirations. It almost creates a sort of what we call a lifelong dysphoria, like this sort of sad kind of, it's not quite depression, dysphoria is something more, it's like a far overreaching kind of sadness that hunts into every corner of someone's life. That's what happens to the long-term survivor of narcissistic abuse. And I've seen it many times in clients and it's devastating. - I get a lot of emails, not as many as you from people who are in these abusive relationships, they feel alone. They feel like they're the only one in the world that this is happening to. I'm telling you, you are not alone. There are many people out there going through something similar that you're going through. Can you share Dr. Ramani, any stories from your past or clients you've worked with, who have really succeeded on coming out of that relationship, working on themselves and moving into a life that is really for and about them rather than a life that was for and about somebody else? - Oh, numerous, numerous, numerous stories. I think there's a tremendous, tremendous likelihood of not only good survivorship, but thriver-shift after this all happens. But it means making changes and mental shifts at a Herculean level. It means leaving an old life behind, an old set of narratives and an old set of beliefs. And that is not easy. The most challenging part of dismantling narcissistic abuse, it's not often about dismantling that primary relationship. Let's say somebody leaving a narcissistic marriage, you then start looking around saying, "Oh my gosh I was surrounded by people "who were invalidating me, enabling this nonsense. "I was letting this happen." And as you clear off the dust, you're like, it's almost like mold in a house. You don't have mold in just one corner that has overtaking your house. And it is a hatchet job to get it out of every corner of your house, to make it safe for you to live there. And so, but what I will tell you after that what I see Kyle is, and I do workshops on this for survivors, is that there is a new life they step into where, it's like, if you've ever watched a cat, you know animals better than anyone. If you watch a cat step on a surface, they're not sure if it's gonna be safe underneath. Like I see this with my cat on my comforter. Very. Is that gonna hold? Is that gonna hold? Is that gonna hold? That sort of the cat on comforter feel of a person who just comes out of narcissistic abuse, survivorship, they're just like mm, mm, mm. And they're like, "Oh, it's holding. "Oh, I can go back to school. "Oh, wait, I can write this blog." Or, "I can laugh out loud at this TV show." Or, "I can cook foods with garlic." Or, "I can put the thermostat at 75." Then they're like, "Which means I can start being me." And they introduce themselves to themselves sometimes for the first time in 50 years. When I do, I have all program, I make them go through they get acquainted with themselves again. And when that happens, they're like, "I'm all in." And some of them actually do survivorship work, some go back and become therapists and coaches. So they can actually work with survivors. They write about it. They make art, they go back to school. I've known people to go and start multiple businesses. I've known people to go back to graduate school at 70. I mean, it's pretty remarkable what people do with the gift of life being given back to them. Are some people riddled with regret? Yes. Others will say, "Maybe I wasn't gonna learn how strong I was "until I really went 15 rounds with this person." And they did, and they came out, but it is a, some of them fall in love again which is remarkable after what they've just been through. They have love stories, and it's beautiful. I mean, I'm gonna tell you, I've heard just as many beautiful stories as I've heard tragic ones. And so I think there's tremendous potential for not only growth, but I actually think that people who survive narcissistic abuse are the most interesting people in the room. And we all identify each other. If we walk into a crowded room, you can see it, there's something in our eyes and we catch each other. And it's like one of those M. Night Shyamalan films where like we could see dead people. I can see survivors. And you see each other, and there's almost like a knowing node across the room. You get it. - Fantastic. I see you survivors as well. And if you feel comfortable sharing a comment below, saying that you are a survivor and you are surviving and or thriving today, I would appreciate it. And I know many others would as well, because sometimes those survivors don't say they are a survivor, and you guys are out there and it will certainly inspire others to see that you are doing so well. So thank you for being brave and sharing that. Dr. Ramani, great session as always. Wonderful, thank you for sharing your insight. We're gonna have more from Dr. Ramani and our other MedCircle doctors tonight. If you'd like to join us live use the links below to do that. If you can't join us live, would like a replay of tonight's panel, still sign up, we will send you the replay of course, you can learn more about Dr. Ramani at watch.medcircle.com. I'm Kyle Kittleson. Remember, whatever you're going through, you got this. (upbeat music)
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Channel: MedCircle
Views: 2,043,610
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Keywords: narcissistic, narcissist, narcissistic personality disorder, narcissistic abuse, narcissistic mother, how to spot a narcissist, narcissists, narcissistic relationship, narcissistic parents, narcissism, mental health, personality disorder, kyle kittleson, dr. ramani, npd, medcircle, dr ramani, narcissist relationship, relationships, how to deal with a narcissist, narcissistic abuse syndrome, narcissistic abuse recovery, signs someone is narcissistic, signs someone is a narcissistic
Id: NjIhNFyPQEc
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Length: 21min 7sec (1267 seconds)
Published: Thu Apr 08 2021
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