NAR Vocabulary and Terminology

hey everybody in this video we're picking up on our conversation about the new apostolic reformation or gnar for short we've done stuff in prior episodes talk about our doctrine and practices in this video we're specifically going to be talking uh about the uh the vocabulary the language in which frames of the new apostolic reformation it's gonna be a great episode you guys stay tuned you are watching the remnant radio a crowd funded show where we interview pastors teachers historians and theologians from different churches and denominations my name is joshua lewis and this is my co-host michael roundtree together we want to help you break outside of your theological echo chambers if you're interested in learning about history theology or the gifts of the spirit this is the show for you [Music] howdy howdy that pre-show chatter it's uh it's gonna be a good show guys getting activated very very excited uh about our show today we're talking about the new apostolic reformation cole perkins you guys are wrong okay thanks nicole i appreciate that he's talking to people in chat cole was he was there when i was in louisiana he invited me to come speak in louisiana that's who cole is he's probably telling people in the comments i assume i assume he's talking to the people in the comment section he wouldn't talk trash about you running so as you can see we do these shows live which makes it extra fun so um a couple things we have coming up on tuesday tomorrow we have back to the fathers we have a 12 week kind of series going so we're in like week three or four here uh talking about dreams and visions throughout church history have you ever wondered like what did this look like what did prophecy look like throughout church history going to be really exciting and then on wednesday josh and i are going to be interviewing dr sam storms one of the favorites on the show so stay tuned for that hit that subscribe button hit that like button and if you're live in the chat guys chat it up throw your questions out yeah and just remember guys we're entirely crowdfunded so if you've watched other episodes of remnant radio or you maybe this is your first time and you've been blessed by this episode or other content we've produced if you want to help support the content all you have to do is go to the links of the description give on paypal or patreon and there's tons of ways that you can give their paypal one-time gift patreon as low as five bucks a month but as much as however your heart leads you to give you can do that i also want you guys know about a conference that we're doing called the pursuit conference this weekend we're leaving on sunday we drive down to houston and it's a monday tuesday wednesday it's specifically a pastor's conference teaching you how to equip your church in the gifts of the spirit the pursuit conference matt chandler sam storms jack dear is going to be there you need to go check out that website radio there we're going to be posting i'll be prophesying on sunday night you'll be doing the prophecy business so well miller will be down there doing a roundtable discussion you and me uh with the team it's going to be really great so obviously we believe in the gifts of the spirit we probably need to say that at the top of the show we're charismatics but we're talking about the gnar but the question is what means charismatic because it's uh it's not a monolith right this is not just one stream here and uh and we really want to is we're talking about the new apostolic reformation you know we were accused on facebook of being heresy hunters today because you know we we have been critical of the new apostolic reformation before uh we we didn't we're not actually heresy hunters i mean we're pretty nice guys actually uh but we do have some criticisms toward the new apostolic reformation and um and there are numerous streams within charismatics right and so uh so we want to help you identify this specific stream of the new apostolic reformation uh because i don't know so we find it a little bit dangerous what are some things that are dangerous about the gnar um man i think the the gnar ultimately has certain practices that cause people to be displaced and hurt um you know i've got personal experiences with friends that have the the nar has a specific ecclesiological structure that often places one person at the top they have specific visions and callings that the lord has led them to uh that the whole structure then kind of submits themselves to right so you have um first timothy five elders who are called to direct the affairs of the church fight for 75 17 but then you have an apostle who gets to tell the elders what to do yeah well i would even say yeah and then so some will say that that is not residential so some of the people that are like nar associated um there's nar incorporated and there's nar associated right so you have the nar associated where they'll be like hey i'm just the pastor of my local church and i look outside and there's an apostolic voice that speaks into our life and that's just basically an association of churches that are connected well with one guy that they aspire to and like his his theology and ministry now there's another kind of nar i would say incorporated where you've got this guy who thinks himself he fancies himself an apostle and and then he says everyone's going to submit to me and usually that's like the senior pastor guy and then that kind of trickles down yeah and we did an episode with michael miller on that where he got i think it's called fired from narchur which was the name of the episode and he talks about that so the senior pastor takes this role of basically being the apostolic leader and hey everything submits to the apostles vision and so we just think that it can violate the plurality of of leadership that is that the new testament binds us to um and and really this touches on the issue of authority and the new apostolic reformation's interpretation of ephesians 2 20 where it speaks of christ being the chief cornerstone the church is like a temple and then apostles and prophets are the foundation and so they'll interpret that to mean that as though what paul is saying is that apostles and prophets have authority upon the church and that in each season in churches that this wasn't a unique thing to church history that you know and i'll just give my interpretation of ephesians 2 20 while we're at it okay um in ephesians 2 20 when he when he mentions these apostles and prophets we can't interpret this in isolation he'll go a few verses later in ephesians 3 5 and i'll talk about how the apostles and prophets received revelation that jews and gentiles would both be part of what he calls in ephesians 2 the new man the body of christ and so uh whereas in old testament prophecy there are lots of prophecies that gentiles would become part of you know would kind of stream into israel but it was a very israel-centric thing yeah well in the new testament it's like well it's actually a christ-centric uh a christ-centric thing and christ is the cornerstone and jews and gentiles are actually partakers together the promise his point is that apostles and prophets received this revelation and and it was in that role that they were foundational we do believe that there are apostles and prophets today but josh and i would both say that that foundational role of receiving revelation about jews and gentile inclusion in what we call church that that foundational role does not continue in the future since that apostles and prophets are giving us new teachings and new truths that we must submit ourselves to and that is a common teaching in the new apostolic reformation right moses there wasn't a prophet in the old testament like moses moses was unique and they said hey there's another guy who's going to come he's going to be jesus he's going to be different but he's going to be like moses all the other prophets not like moses do we believe there were unique 12 apostles absolutely we do do you believe there are apostles today yep the word missionary comes from the same latin phrase of sent one that apostle does we just think that missionaries and apostles are the same thing so if you're out there and you're like they believe in apostles just hear us saying we believe in missionaries guys who play in churches we totally believe that's a gift and a grace that god gives people to do but there's another area of the new apostolic reformation that is a little concerning to us and it's these spiritual and mystical practices now as we get into it today you'll hear some of this but i really believe that you can open yourself up to some very demonic stuff we've done multiple videos on the courts of heaven from robert henderson go and watch reports of heaven and those videos are so underwatched because it's shocking how uh uh how i don't know i mean that got a lot of views no i i mean i feel like it should be some of our most popular stuff and the reason being is because it's touching so much of the charismatic world and it really needs to be shared around because it's one of those videos where uh we addressed i mean these they're talking about like speaking to the dead uh angels you know if you're giving enough that gives you kind of spiritual authority and heavenly places to do stuff we'll talk about that here in a sec but man if you're if you're like literally just waiting to like speak to dead saints like i call that necromancy and i think you're opening yourself up to demonic stuff although we've had anglicans on the show well that's but see even that they would say that what we're doing is we're asking them to do something for us we're not looking to speak and interact with them they're not doing like saul witch of endor no just saying that kind of stuff it's not like it's it's not like their anglican brothers are like you know like some kind of blood sacrifice or something ridiculous that's a different category okay okay um and and then if you haven't even though it's outdated it was our new york new year's eve uh oh yeah marathon of eight hours new york i could see how you got that yeah whatever anyway it was like eight hours long but uh but we did this review of prophecies from the previous year and it was just a really uh it was really powerful and uh and i think important uh because every year these apostles and prophets are releasing their prophetic words over the global church or the american church whatever it is and every year they seem to be wrong and they seem to mix in some prosperity gospel into their prophecies and you know they're they're prophesying stadiums are going to be filled and like churches are empty because of covet that year and so so we we reviewed those but but the thing is and the reason i bring that up is because there was a lot of within the new apostolic reformation like we're fully on board with prophecy like i said i'm going to be people i am from a stage huge to lots of people next week like we're fully on board i train for prophecy uh i mean we're on board but we're not on board for loose cannon prophecies that carry something like apostolic authority something that's like you know in competition with the authority of the written word of god we're not in favor of that agreed and i think finally what we need to do before we get too much further i really should have done this very first thing is there are people who are watching right now you've heard nar being used in a kind of pejorative all stupid charismatics and that's like uh everybody's nar because they're charismatic we don't we're not using them that way uh and then there's another group that wants to say uh everyone's saying that the nar is some kind of clandestine underground organization they're like the knights templar they're like this this secretive group and and all the leaders none of them know that they're part of the nar it's like no no nar is a category that was created by c peter wagner it's not like a formal organization or or church structure he's saying that hey i've noticed uh that there are groups of people who cluster together that have certain beliefs and practices that are uniform and then another group of people doug and hawley put together uh they've been on our show talking about the new apostolic reformation they put it in book form and in writing talking about hey there's a group of people that have a certain set of beliefs and we're categorizing it as that now the illustration i use frequently is like dispensationalism right if i talk to someone i started explaining to them you know are you a dispensationalist and they go no of course not and they don't know what the word means and you explain well do you have do you believe that there's a future plan for israel and do you believe like these certain theological things and they go well yeah of course i do then you go well you're dispensationalist right they just don't know what the category means so it makes perfect sense that there could be people who are leading the new apostolic reformation who don't believe they're a part of it because they don't know that we're talking about categories not formal structures absolutely and that's helpful and this vocabulary words that we're about to run through is really going to help you identify is my church part of the new apostolic reformation or not and even if if your church is part of the new apostolic reformation it and your leaders might not acknowledge that but if it seems to be we're not even saying necessarily you need to exodus from that church right because and here's why there's a range here there's like a there's like a nars scale the one on our scale how gnarly are they how gnarly are they right and and some people are gnar light and some are heavy and the gnar heavy is what we're particularly concerned about because it really the like the big picture is it kind of all comes back to the to authority a single person who has uh unprecedented authority over your soul that goes beyond what the new testament says on authority over elders who are to direct the affairs of the church authority to deliver prophetic words that are binding on the consciences upon the global body of christ authority to teach new truths should be able to agree that these all these things are dangerous but not everyone's going to be all the way there some will and then some will be uh not not at all there or just barely there so here are some of the catch words let's run through these words and then we'll talk about like is are these theological shorthands uh bad evil you know can it be good uh i mean there's words like kingdom prophetic apostolic now those words aren't exclusive to the nrar everyone uses them uh but uh they definitely get doubled down on and used as adjectives in the inning yeah i think your thing with them is is can kingdom be an adjective right right yeah kingdom finance yeah kingdom yeah kingdom influence and apostolic authority and they're solid prophetic right okay so again the adjective form and doesn't matter and what you'll find as we walk through this is that we'll probably disagree we might disagree on some of them and and we're not saying that they're all necessarily bad we would just we're just saying that if you're in a gnar church you're going to hear these words a lot can i just read through them fast then we'll kind of review it okay um you'll hear kingdom prophetic apostolic probably in greater concentration than you would find in the new testament even though those principles are important in the new testament okay alignment shift billion soul harvest portal realm accelerate activate fresh anointing assignment atmosphere awakening birthing breakthrough dominion double why did you laugh when i said birth or double portion impartation uh mantle open heaven promotion shift soaking strategic spiritual warfare spiritual mapping transfer of wealth unlocking again we're not saying all of these words are bad but i i think my question that i would ask you is if all of these words sound super familiar to you but the word justification is something you can't define you might be in a gnar church yeah i mean and again i think that we should really aim i mean i don't think there's any way to avoid some christianese we sure have it sure but i think we should really aim to major in the vocabulary of the bible yeah so let me give two examples okay these two examples will help us say that using words that aren't like let's look at the word portal someone will hear that word like that's not a biblical word get that one out of here they're like real strong biblicist and and i would tend to conform with that idea like hey we should use words that are in the bible but let's use some words that aren't in the bible that would actually be helpful and shorthand for christians to use like uh penal substitutionary atonement or psa right the term psa or the acronym psa isn't in the bible the word trinity is not in the bible but those little you know quippy little shorthands are helpful to communicate a broad theological point into a very succinct moment that's actually helpful to do in other camps they will use those in a bad way you'll have a guy like uh i would say boyd but you know boyd or pete ends or like we've been doing episodes maybe speaking of which we did an episode with alyssa childers and two hours of stuff with dawson specifically on brian zahn that's going to be so good uh but that's all comes out while we're in houston all that being said they use the word christopher hermeneutic to have a whole bunch of bad theology packaged into a very concise word right so hermeneutic the way you interpret the bible christoform or sometimes they'll say cruciform speaking of the cross or jesus yeah but but really what they mean is like hey we read the old testament through the lens of christ the incarnation to the lens of the cross and so what they tend to do is uh and that sounds great i mean jesus does that in luke chapter 24 and he jesus is preaching jesus from genesis to malachi i would have loved to hear that sermon in luke 24 jesus is all throughout the old testament but the way they use and if that's what they meant by christopher hermeneutic just see jesus in the old testament that'd be one thing i'm i'm on board yeah but what they tend to mean is that well those uncomfortable parts of the bible and you know whatever happened with the canaanites and read them allegorically yeah read them allegorically or it's just uh they say well that doesn't look like you know that doesn't look like god was behind that you know they kind of made that up and that was kind of their cultural deal and so we we know that god is like this and so they they tend to when you read their books it sounds like their anti-old testament yeah so what we're going to do is we're going to say what are the ways that we can sorry i'm going to ingest it all of a sudden it's it's a demonic congestion i need apostolic relations to get delivered out of there bro so um when it comes to these words how do we define because obviously categories can be used to make succinct theological points such as trinity and psa that can be good and some can be used that are bad they have bad theological meanings behind them so how do we discern some of these charismatic keywords if you will these nar keywords that are just really really really used all the time in the nar spaces are some of them bad are we kind of over overreacting to some of these words because i think we are i think some people on there like can you believe they use the word shift it's like if you never use the word shift in a sermon like hey guys i really feel like uh man like the the the political space is shifting right now it's like does are you gonna label someone gnar for using the word shift like right it just seems excessive there's another big yeah it's really common in our circles to talk about atmosphere you know the holy spirits and that come and fill this atmosphere or whatever uh you'll hear that a lot but is it wrong yeah you know it's got some package theology and so what we want to do yes we want to put the words out there we're going to walk through them and and some of them we will have a problem with yeah some of them we will but we also want to be careful on the other side and we don't want to be the heresy hunter we don't want to just be looking for problems right in the body of christ so i mean we got plenty of our own problems so we want to call balls and strikes that's right everything we do let's try out what we try to do okay so walk us through some of the things we want to okay what do you want to talk first you want to i mean so kingdom prophetic apostolic that might surprise people because i know you're the one that made that note um well let's talk about like okay so again we want to find out how these things are back up before we get it yeah does it does it create a a grandiose distinction between us and them so when the word apos apostle is used now sometimes the way that i would use the word apostle would be the way i would use the word missionary this person's gonna be sent they're gonna go plan a church they're gonna do a new work certainly they're gonna teach doctrine they're certainly gonna establish people they're gonna raise up leaders all that stuff is true but oftentimes the way that the apostle is used is that they have a spiritual connection to god and a supernatural covering in that there are certain churches and again this is documented we're going to go through this in here in a second but there are churches that when they sit underneath apostolic power they have supernatural power in the heavenly places in an evangelism it's like god the mediator between god and ministry is apostolic ministry it is communicated in such a way that rather than the the life and light of christ like christ is our head and we receive the blessing from him we actually received the blessing from our apostolic head that's right so does starts to get us so it's the us and them thing okay and you don't have to be charismatic to do this i mean there are lots of other people who do this too but but is the leader communicating in such a way that they are elevating themselves over and over and over again in their degree of authority and does does the language that we're going through does it fit that description so those are things we're going to be looking for does it elevate a person to be our mediator between god and man that's going to be a big deal does the language force you to blindly trust the leader right uh and and then we'll kind of flow this into point three yeah through mysticism and speculation yeah okay because i was gonna comment on both end through mysticism and speculation and paul will talk about this in the book of uh colossians where people are they're like talk constantly you know you're talking about angels and inflated by visions and he says that they're detached from the head who is christ and i believe in visions and i believe in supernatural encounters and i've had some uh but people who are constantly talking about those things like it's like uh like like like they just say things uh such as okay um i had this vision of an angel and the angel told me that so and so was going to win this election and they go into great detail about the angel and you feel like you have to believe this word because they saw an angel well and then next week they saw another angel and then the next week and they talk about it like it's casual but when i read the bible and people see angels they're not just like chilling with them you know except maybe the ones that take on human form but some angels you know appearing in glory they're not just chit-chatting with them yeah and let's talk about like the the mysticism and speculation when we're talking about building christian doctrine and practice around something we want to use the scriptures we want to open up the bible we want to look at those scriptures a preacher will often use an illustration from their life they'll say this is what the bible says on this specific subject and look at this story behind here that supports that idea a lot of times what will happen in this nar space is they'll say this is the spiritual practice of how to do this thing in the spiritual heavens right and then they'll say this is my experience right it doesn't it's not scripture and then the experience it kind of explains it all out they actually have an experience that they're trying to make sense of and then they run to a bible verse to justify their experience it's a very different use of scripture so so we're going to ask ourselves does this lean heavily on personal experience this kind of mysticism and speculation or is it really rooted in god's word are we really finding out how to do this because frankly jesus and the apostles and none of the patriarchs warfared over principalities over specific geographical regions with specific kind of prayers it never happened in the bible right which is touching on our fourth question is the language used to disguise unbiblical uh unbiblical practices so you touched on one which uh which is called within the new apostolic reformation strategic spiritual warfare now what they're going to say is they're going to say well uh josh you're wrong because in daniel chapter 10 there was the principality of the prince of persia and there was the uh you know the prince of greece and so just as you have these battles taking place on earth you have the the the supernatural principality demonic they would call them their language for it would be territorial spirits and that is an accurate designation uh but here's what we don't see we don't see daniel in chapter 10 saying i cast you down prince of persia i cast you down prince of greece no you just see daniel praying and fasting for 21 days because the prince of persia isn't omnipresent and he can't hear your prayers right so the strategic spiritual warfare you know in fact this makes me think of a uh somebody on our facebook page whenever we posted that we're going to be doing this episode he uh the comment said i wrote it down i bet you think spirit i bet you think strategic spiritual warfare is dangerous ephesians much like i've never read ephesians and i didn't know about principalities and powers and rulers and authorities i guys i think the way that we spiritual warfare is we pray to god god give us power and strength to suffer well and preach the gospel and then we go out we preach the gospel and we suffer well well right i mean ephesians chapter six it's the armor of god right the helmet of salvation it's the breastplate of righteousness the shield of faith the sword of the word of god the spirit the sword of the spirit which is the word of god etc it's all the way down but you don't see paul anywhere there in there saying cast out territorial spirits this way never said and um and so we're on board for spiritual warfare it's a big part of the christian life in ephesians chapter six it's sort of the culmination of paul's ethical exhortations that began in chapter four so we're all on board for spiritual warfare but in the gnar strategic is added at the beginning and who doesn't like strategic who doesn't like strategic but strategic means you have to have an apostle who gets a revelation that you can't get i can't get you have to be an apostle to get the revelation to understand which territorial spirit it is so that you can strategically address it this will involve some spiritual mapping another vocab term and so our point is is is this language used to disguise on biblical practices well who doesn't want strategic spiritual warfare that sounds like a good thing but we would actually have trouble with it because of the way they use it and please guys consider i've had conversations and this is going to trigger everybody i had a two ever conversation over zoom with randy clark asking him about spiritual mapping and things like that now he may say strategic spiritual warfare and means something very different than carlos anaconda and that's one of the things with this conversation that we're saying we've got to figure out what these words mean and we've got to have conversations with people and start fleshing out what this theolo these theological categories actually mean when we're having conversations so even when you just heard michael talk about strategic spiritual warfare don't think that every time someone uses that phrase they're talking about robert henderson's courts of heaven they're they're different people they have different schools of thought it can literally be anywhere on the pendulum that's right so let's start with um we talked a little bit about adjectives and using specific words as adjectives kingdom prophetic apostolic and power how do we do that yeah i mean i i don't really have a problem with using kingdom prophetic and apostolic as adjectives i hate it so much is that a personal hatred is that just kind of you know you we all have preferences for how church should be done it but like i mean is there actually is there a danger in this so i ask you that hang on we hung out with kirk keener remember that time that we hung out with craig junior because we're cool and we just get to hang out with guys like that so we're hanging out with craig keener and i was like hey answer me this question about apostolic ministry because people you just use that remember you just used the word apostolic yeah you have a star like ministry you adject devised i did adjectivize it so i said apostolic ministry some have said that we stole the word from rome we stole the roman there's a there's a soldier in rome and he was an apostle and his job was to go and conquer a city-state or a region and to transform the culture of that region with you know with art and entertainment and literature and culture eyes these people that they conquered and craig looked at me confused craig was like i don't know where you heard that that's nuts that's not a thing and craig knows more about bible background context than anyone i mean i have his background commentary yeah beautiful yeah craig keener is like like when you go onto the the the logos and like you want to buy all of the the packages on background history commentary it's like his commentaries are the ones that come out yeah so he says so he's like that's hogwash that's ridiculous that's no that's not a thing so i'm sitting there going wow that's fascinating but see that's the word the way that apostolic is being used so it's like if you're going to be an apostolic but you're going to be apostolic in the marketplace your apostolic or your prophetic marketplace or apostolic marketplace the idea is that you're going into the marketplace and then you're going to shift that culture that's the way that they're talking about it they're going to shift that atmosphere okay right okay sometimes but you know okay so jack dear he'll tell the story he said you know one time he okay he said you know i don't consider myself an apostle but apparently someone else did because they sent me a letter in the mail and they and the letter said we don't know whether you consider yourself an apostle but we do and if you send this much money you can join our apostolic network and so on that would have been a terrible usage right okay yes to join the apostolic network for such amount of such and such amount of money okay so i get it it can be misused it can be abused but i would also say this whether jack is an apostle or not um whatever i don't i don't know i don't care but is he and has he throughout his history been apostolic i think the argument could be made that he has been so we might need to look at has he planted churches and done some missionary work we could have the debate but it at least in the sense of kind of having a sort of trans local voice it's apostolic perhaps but see trans local isn't what what it is to be an apostle right so has jack played in a couple churches well okay the man apostolic let's say he had let's say planet 10 churches i would say cool yeah would you say would you have a problem with saying his apostolic no not there and i and when it comes to those so you don't hate the word entirely it's just the way it's often used the way that it's often used so let's use this quote i think this will help help you guys smell what i'm stepping in here uh this is from robert henderson he goes i called together a total of 10 people that operate in the seer gift to help me discern what was what was happening in the spirit realm as we began to pray and submit ourselves to the lord the spirit realm opened up to the seers with me whatever dimension of jurisdiction an apostle carries the seers and the prophetic gifts will begin to see into that dimension oh so this is why i don't like the word apostle and being used as an adjective because it's like apostolic authority i have special sauce energy that when you sit underneath my ministry it actually supercharges your ministry it's like you are a good fighter but if you sit under me you can go super saiyan at this point because there's there's literally no substance in that quote whatsoever but it there is loads of jargon and and what that does i mean i just want you guys to notice this and people will do this it make it can it's a way of making themselves sound more spiritual maybe even scholarly to some people okay but it's it's just a cloud of dust it's it's nothing it's a bunch of jargon that means nothing so uh we want you guys to pay attention to that yeah so and this would be another point that that robert henderson makes a big effort to say hey if you're going to do evangelism in a given region and you haven't taken authority over the principalities of that region you have to first get an apostle to sit over your church before you do spiritual warfare and then you have to do that before you do evangelism or your evangelism will be effective so it's not the gospel that's the power of god unto salvation it's the gospel the power of god of salvation when it's submitted to courtroom prayer that's submitted to some kind of apostolic authority if you don't have an apostle over you when you're doing strategic spiritual warfare over this region demonic attacks will come after you and your family so you've got to make sure that you have the right you have the right kind of balance and the right kind of voice is speaking so again when you say apostolic is it being used in a way to give a person endow a person with certain specific powers that are extra biblical that make it absolutely essential for you to have them right for you to function in regular ministry just think about like all the new stuff that he added that we have to do i mean there's enough in the in in the scripture for me to try to obey yeah for now you'll be busy for the rest of your life through all of these hoops and we don't we don't name people on the show unless we consider them truly dangerous and we do find in fact we've even done shows about whether we named someone or not yeah uh robert henderson is worth naming if you're reading his books i would encourage you just please stop reading his books they're dangerous uh even border on again we talked about some quartz of heaven episode that that book was gnostic to the core all the way through uh and so it's just 21st century gnosticism it's a it's a bad deal so um hey i think we'll pass over the word alignment you another word was shift okay now why why is that such a big deal the word shift or is it is it a big deal okay so shift it's like it's on your keyboard so the question would be does the word is the word used in the bible and the the answer is no it's not in the bible so is it being used in a biblical way i mean i think the long and short of it is that it can be i think i think you can say hey you know our cul our community has really shifted the way they view um uh view abortion or whatever like they they they used to view it this way we've been uh you know we've been in the community i think uh there's churches that that tithe to their community they do city outreaches and they were this this community was hostile to christianity and now it's like things have shifted and they they they like us like i mean i don't get what's wrong with that in luke 10 when the disciples come back from their mission they've been preaching gospel casting out demons and jesus says i saw satan fall like lightning from heaven uh which would be a fun one to jump into it take about five minutes my point to really adequately explain it but my my point is the one that i really wanted eschatology squirrel did you guys see it there it went well eschatology squirrel there it is yeah so but my point is he is at least remarking so at least giving away some of my interpretation he is at least remarking upon some kind of shift that's happened yeah right so um so there could be a bright usage of this but the question is how does the gnar use it i know we have in our notes here another quote from robert anderson uh this one says i began to prophesy the portions of his destiny that i felt were in his book so people have secret books that are in heaven that you have to find and read you have to find them and read through revelation through sort of traveling to heaven and reading books that are apparently there um i broke the spirit of depression and i told it to leave i immediately felt things shift and here's the thing can i just say like i think the book stuff in the courts of heaven stuff is wacky but i would actually use that phrase i actually brought this quote in here for the sake of saying i'd probably talk like that if i pray over someone like we prayed over a lady who confessed like hey like i have suicidal thoughts like we prayed and literally you can feel that demonic power leave and the holy spirit come and it's like felt a shift i mean i don't know that i would say that but i certainly am not going to say anyone who does say it is gnar that's wacky yeah that that demon went straight into a portal to somewhere else it shifted right into a different portal okay so ridiculous i hear people talk a lot about the billion soul harvest yeah now this goes back to where you want to talk to us yeah bob jones bob jones gave a prophecy and not the university no kansas city prophet there's there are groups of bob jones there's bob jones ifb independent fundamentals baptist world but there's a different bob jones that came out of the kansas city prophets right uh they're in ihop now bob has got a couple of scandals on the under his belt and people will say hey he was restored you know i don't want to debate that necessarily but he didn't end so well i mean towards the very end of his life we've got video footage of him teaching bethel how to travel to heaven which we've done videos on you can go back and watch and in addition to that he has also we've got video footage of todd bentley explaining how he was trying to travel into the third heavens go into heaven and and you know do one of his spirit field trips and then uh the there's a spirit that was dressed in robes and it looked like a monk and he told this to bob jones and he's like oh that's the dalai lama spirit that's preventing you from getting into the third heaven he's hanging out in the second heaven you've got to empty your mind and speak in tongues so that you anyway so again [Music] this guy did not end well um and and again maybe he was restored but his scandal was pretty excessive as well and as from what i know of people who were very close to him and around him they would say that guy had no business teaching the bible so i would just say again but some of those same people do seem to think he was truly restored many of those people would say he's truly responsible and many of them would say that he had an authentic prophetic gift yeah and that which makes it common so neither here they're there but he was the source of the billion soul harvest and he used to prophesy way back in the day i mean i know it was a long time ago um 90s a long time ago long time ago free fall anyway but uh anyway a billion soul harvest and i and i think it went with like stadiums all over the place being filled which is interesting because that was a prophecy over 2020 that's right uh and so uh and so there was going to be a billion soul harvest so um what's wrong with a billion soul harvest i would like to see that i who wouldn't like to see that and i think that if you have a specific eschatological view that that actually makes sense for some of these people um and i think many i think that you'll find that a lot of these views in these phrases come from a specific reading of eschatology um this one in particular i'm not against who doesn't want to see a billion souls saved but again where is our source material coming from why do we believe that there's a billion soul harvest again i'm looking at a guy who's got a track record of manipulating people uh that scandal i literally cannot say it like i literally cannot tell you in a clean conscience knowing that there are kids who watch this there are some things that there's some bad some really bad stuff that shouldn't be spoken of um and then again the way that it ended not good guys um so i i would just say should we believe that god is going to save the lost and if your eschatology specifically says there's going to be a mass a mass soul-winning thing that happens towards the end of mass revival man praise god uh but but using again that specific phrase billions of harvest it ties that back into an uncredible uh unaccountable prophetic ministry that i don't think we should we should be endorsing or should be promoting frankly by by referencing it yeah well i mean i don't know i i just think that if your church is talking about a billion soul harvest all the time it just means that they've been influenced by the gnar it doesn't mean that there's a problem with praying for a billion soul harvest i mean sure i just think it's a vocabulary phrase to be aware of um but i don't i don't think talking about a billion soul harvest is particularly dangerous i'm fine with it and i would hope and pray for it too uh so why but again that's that's the thing it's like if if it's like why a billion why not two billion oh why not 12 billion massive harvest okay big harvest revival i pray for revival again that that's my point would be why would you trust that prophetic word billion okay i did this yeah okay so you keep bringing up the portal we gotta talk we haven't really what we haven't done is quoted the passion bible the passion translation on the portal if you've not seen our video with mike winger on the passion translation please watch that video you might have thought hey it's just kind of like another message bible what's the harm and uh there's harm in the passion translation so we did a whole video on that it's really good uh but how and there's a gnar connection to passion translation you want to speak into that than our connection to the passion translation yeah i mean the connection is that brian simmons believes that god has spoken to him specifically in a kind of revelatory way to enhance the bible in areas that it needed to be enhanced in addition to that he thinks that he's getting extra books and some other stuff that's pretty uh extra books extra chapters um there's another chapter to the book of john that's right and so uh anyway so he's backing up his translation with extra biblical revelation uh and just we just get real nervous about uh tampering with the bible more than nervous anyway but here is second corinthians 12 10 in the passion translation uh so i'm not defeated by my weakness but i'm delighted oh no i hate this one for when i feel my weakness and endure mistreatment when i'm surrounded with troubles on every side and face persecution because of my love for christ i am made yet stronger for my weakness becomes a portal to god's power another one second corinthians 12 10 oh it keeps going it's the second verse but that's an esv so people who aren't familiar with that okay okay okay yeah yeah so uh here's the same verse in the english standard version for the sake of christ then i am content with weaknesses insults hardships persecutions and calamities for when i am weak then i am strong so the key is paul says when i'm weak then i'm strong but the passion translation says for my weakness becomes a portal to god's power so uh what's going on here well again um this is trying to create a form of divine cosmology of how we access certain things and i think this is one of the things that that bothers me with nar is that it seems to speak of things in these kinds of overly simplistic terms um how when we speak of healing it's god's will to kill everyone everyone gets healed on this side of heaven there's no mystery there's no sovereignty it's just cut and dry plain if you're gonna do warfare over a specific region you know it's not like hey sometimes you win sometimes you lose part of god's divine plan that you get your butt kicked sometimes like no it's like you've got to like do specific warfare and have apostolic structures and and and this there's kind of this universal energy that's built into things well if you enter into weakness there's this portal that will open up and you'll have access to this energy and it's like no that's not the way that the universe works in fact it's it's by god seeing that you are weak that he is glorified and his power is displayed through your weakness it's not that you somehow get this divine energy that works through the cosmos that you have access to we've got to think in careful terms and explain what we mean carefully because again things like this they create they create systems if you put a quarter in you crank the machine you're always going to get this result out have enough faith always get out of healing have enough this always get out of that right and again i think this it feeds into that philosophy and theology in ways that i don't think is helpful yeah it i think it it changes that versus meaning from being hey you know when i'm weak god's going to use it for his glory and and magnify his grace it changes it from meaning that to if it's suddenly a portal it is a supernatural boost from heaven that that sounds more like a turbo boost like a it sounds more like an experience that you have i don't think that's what paul is trying to communicate that i have a charismatic experience with god that supercharges my weakness and make turns me into samson right so right so not helpful there can we i want to do this this question here by daniel he says question because we're talking about ihop and we talked about uh our boy uh bob jones which obviously basically is ihop gnar yeah that literally is the question okay okay um i think it's a no okay i i've met mike bickle uh a number of times and i have a lot of respect for mike pickle me too i have a lot of respect for what he's done with uh with the prayer room am i gonna agree with mike bickle on everything certainly not um but uh does he fit that category does he have uh one man at the top is it their spiritual authority and spiritual structures that have been built into the system that cause abuse that are extra biblical i haven't seen those i don't think they fit that description maybe they have some of this vocabulary who says that they suffered abuse why do you ihop and uh i i don't know i can't really i certainly would validate that that person had a bad experience yeah i mean is that due to church government there is it do i don't know what it was due to but again that's a different question because when i talk about spiritual abuse i mean i'm talking about like are there spiritual practices everywhere everywhere but but are there spiritual practices like courts of heaven like strategic warfare is there is there ecclesiology set up specifically does love the word realm he does but you can enter the beauty realm but that's after a pickle uh impression that's what you guys are saying let's see a lot like lou engle honestly it sounded like you know uh uh lord i plead your blood over my sins and the sins of my nation dude that is an abortion revival to america it destroys my vocal cords okay dude so my long and short of it is no i don't think there are are there things there that can be unhealthy again michael told a story of a friend of ours a mutual friend i trust her story and other stories that have like that um i respect mike pickle long and short of it um i don't think his ecclesiology is set up that way i don't think that they are practicing certain spiritual practices like defined theological categories that have divine cosmology and stuff whacked out i think that they might use some of the vocabulary i think they may associate with people who definitely fit that description but i'm not willing to say and that's why it's so hard is the charismatic movement is really yeah i mean there's they're going to be some difference in my scotology could not be more radically different than mike pickles but um well i guess it could be but anyway it's very different um he has a very literalistic reading of of revelation compared to me but um anyway i don't think he's naruto okay so portals is it helpful let's do realm because that's one that like that one's actually used in the bible like in average translations the word realm is used in the bible 13 times if you use the nasb and that one has seems to have the usher and be the most generous as i could and asp is a decent translation you're saying there can be a place that can be placed using realm it's a biblical word in the next question and we're kind of you can see we're kind of doing the same thing for every vocabulary word here how does the gnar use the word so um okay here's an example another robert henderson people boy robert so robert says people normally think of this as depicting a satanic hierarchy structure this is however a structure in the spirit runs okay are we back great guys i don't know what happened i think michael has chosen not to pay his internet bill here at the church and i think our microphones are crazy loud now you know our microphones are that loud earlier anyway um guys i apologize no in the chat yeah sorry um uh yeah i apologize it has been happening right around the same time every time in the show so i apologize that we lost some of you in that program but the long and short of it is we were talking about what we're talking about we're talking about the realm the realms okay so the word realm in daniel is actually used uh to specifically speak of like dominion and actually the words in the nasb often uses the word realm when you go through the the the book of daniel and you'll see that he uses the word realm to speak about the specific authority like the realm of the earth the earth's realm god's speaking to daniel or or the realm of this king the king speaks of his realm everyone in my realm will act and behave this specific way um so yeah it's it's an interesting use of the word we would typically use a different word uh we would use like the word not the word kingdom here i have actually written in here we would use the word sorry that the whole internet thing threw me off um dominion would use the word like dominion like the king's dominion whereas the king's i guess the king's realm is the way that it's being used so if i'm going to be generous to interested in some of these nar guys they're using realm in a technically correct sense is there a demonic realm well if there's a demonic kingdom and that kingdom has authority over certain things like it's sure for the english language it actually works in some sense i'm just not going to beat them so one occasion they might use it in the right way okay so but i want to give an example that would concern me a little bit okay so here's revelation 4 1 in the english standard version did we lose it no it's just that quote okay i was like i thought we lost the connection okay after this i looked and behold a door standing open in heaven okay famous verse revelation 4 1. i'm going to read you the same verse in the passion translation suddenly after i wrote down these messages i saw a portal open into the heavenly realm okay whoop i mean so he exchanged door for portal and then he exchanged heaven for heavenly realm now could heaven be described as a heavenly realm okay i mean any place could be described as a realm potentially not necessarily a problem there but here's my problem with it a common translation of the the translation heavenly realm is commonly used in the scripture in a completely different way and i think that this could cause confusion take for instance the book of uh the book of ephesians where the apostle paul we're talking he'll say in one breath let's say ephesians 1 3 that where it says the god and father of our lord jesus blessed be the god and father our lord jesus christ who has blessed us in christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms okay so you have heavenly realms there uh in a good sense like the the that uh that's where the father has blessed us in christ okay but then in ephesians chapter six you have and you quoted this earlier that that we're engaging in a battle with principalities and powers and authorities of this dark world and the heavenly realms is how some versions translate and so um so heavenly realms you have good powers and you have bad powers there and and most interpreters will understand heavenly realms or sometimes heavenly places in the book of ephesians uh to be sort of like the spiritual world it's a it's the realm where believers are both blessed and embattled and so uh it's kind of like if you put sort of a transparency over this room and it's like you could see or i mean that's about it it's a bad analogy but you just could see the spiritual realm spiritual realm okay heavenly places heavenly realm that that's kind of all the same for paul my point is right here in revelation 4 1 where there's a vision of literal heaven he turns it into what could be confused as a common uh translation for heavenly places or heavenly realms yeah and i think it's really important that we realize that there are different words like again we use the word missionary and apostle right the thing is that the english language preferences missionary because when i say missionary you think of someone who goes and plants churches when i say apostle you think of someone who infallibly writes scripture and is one of the twelve right so when i'm trying to talk about apostolic ministry it would be probably preferable for us to talk about the work of missionaries because it actually lends itself to clear communication now someone might argue now you guys don't you realize that the word portal in some random language somehow actually refers to doors yeah but when you say portal here everyone thinks stargate everyone thinks you know some kind of star trek star wars you know you say the word realm people think of gandalf you know i mean there's these words have meaning and they have meaning within the culture of the people who speak those languages and those words so so when we are using the word portal i would just say guys talk about an open heaven talk talk about something that actually makes sense to the hearer because when when when a person hears hey guys we need to open up the portal to the glory realms to experience this like transcended apostolic kingdom power right now so things will shift the atmosphere you know that we can come into our manifest destiny i know i grew up in this whole community like the non-believer sitting there is like i gotta get out before they start serving kool-aid like they just sound good try to just follow you um yeah and so i think we would just say don't be taken in by big vocab words yeah or strange vocab words portal realm accelerate activate open heaven like all of this stuff like it doesn't make you more spiritual and your talk of all these visions that you had when you were taken up through the portal into the open heaven and there was and there was this angel there it just don't be taken in by that that doesn't mean that somebody has special spiritual authority to speak into your life okay we we're unless you use your phone like matt does to get into the portal you use your phone as a portal to the remnant radio realm in which case it's perfectly acceptable like matt matt is in the comments he just said he uses his phone as a portal to the remnant radio oh well i was like praise god praise god that's the kind of nar stuff we can get behind um so we probably have time for like one more word okay so uh i'm gonna read them one more time and it'll refresh everyone's memory anyway and you just tell me which one you want to focus on accelerate activate fresh anointing assignment atmosphere awakening birthing breakthrough i don't know why i always say it like that when i read it birthing breakthrough spiritual placenta wow i was so caught off guard by that translation okay uh dominion double portion impartation kingdom as an adjective mantle open heaven promotion where do you want to go bro hmm you can't decide i can't man what do you want what do you mean we could talk activate okay activate spiritual gifts right okay activating your spiritual gifts so here is um so holly pivik we had it on the show yep uh back in november a year ago talking about the gnar wrote a whole book about it here is one of her quotes she has concern about activate and i want to see if you agree with this josh she says uh the gnar teaching on the activation of a gift has more in common with new age teachings than with biblical christianity new agers believe that everyone is born with supernatural powers that they can activate or awaken or unlock by engaging in various new age practices okay is holly being too harsh here uh or do you agree with her you seem to not like the word activate i don't like in the same way that i think i talked about earlier about the the coin machine that like there's a there's a universal principle that you can just act upon to get the result so like some will say hey here are the things that you do that will activate tongues or hear the things that you can do that'll activate prophecy i don't like that now if you mean hey i want to lay hands on you to impart you some spiritual gift like paul says like i want to pray and then the lord will sovereignly do what the lord sovereignly does praise god i'm all about that now if you're talking about practicing spiritual gifts like hey we're going to pray and we're going to ask god to speak to us and and if god speaks to us and he sovereignly gave the gift of prophecy and then if he didn't he didn't right so we're also we're yielding ourselves to that that kind of metric that's what i'm comfortable with when i hear activate again i hear a kind of universal mechanism in which we're going to we're going to do something to so that it spits out for us some spiritual gift that's what i don't like you know and in the context of that quote i pulled it from her book in the context of that quote she's actually criticizing the idea that uh it comes on the tail end of her criticizing the idea that you can train for and that people can practice prophecy so she's if she's coming from that angle i would disagree with her because i think why would we put prophecy in a special category of gifts that you can't train for can you train people in teaching can you train them in evangelism nobody has a problem with that but you can't train people to be prophets they're either either hear from the lord or they don't but and honestly i think that violates ephesians 4 11. it also doesn't make a whole lot of sense of the schools or the prophets like people are going to say yeah yeah but but what were the schools of the prophets doing well if someone was teaching them well maybe they had like this special curriculum from god i didn't see that in scripture yeah i i think i don't get it i i think that we we can't put spiritual gifts certain spiritual gifts into special categories that you cannot train for you're automatically 100 perfect at it from the word go and and i think and i'm i'm maybe assuming too much i don't know that holly is a cessationist but she uh i don't know yeah but she's uh she doesn't think we're heretics i know that yeah i think there's a lot of room for agreement on some of this stuff and there's a lot of room for disagreement you'll see us disagree with holly and daughter and each other we did two hours where we disagreed with them we disagreed with each other but we also had a lot of areas that we were able to agree on and i think that's one of the reasons that remnant radio exists is we want to have these kinds of intelligible conversations um with people that we agree with that we disagree with on these subjects we just so you guys know we've had a conversation with randy clark about coming on and talking about the nar because he's a very different perspective and we want to hear it i've talked to him for like two hours on it he was doing a really big research paper on it um now randy would be a guy that that i would find probably more disagreement with i think you might find more similarity with you guys had similar circles back in the day i don't know is that my speaking for you there like jack used to roll with randy for a minute right i mean ish yeah i mean jack has rolled with a lot of people and i i think that sometimes charismatics can be a little bit looser in their associations sometimes it doesn't mean they agree with everything i would associate with randy clark if that means having him on the show and i've absolutely yeah but yeah i'm not going to randy's more theological yeah for sure he's worth it for sure yeah okay uh but i i think for our viewers just maybe a takeaway here and maybe we can get to that um now is maybe you were you were listening to this and you were saying just like josh josh said i grew up in this that's why he could just roll up like you you speak that tongue yeah if that's you we're not again we're not saying exodus from the church we're simply saying begin to walk on a little bit of discernment and begin to ask yourself the question of are they twisting the meaning of these scriptures are they giving me spiritual practices that are actually never prescribed in the bible are they making me rely upon an apostle's authority to to move and shake and do things in certain portals and realms that i can't do and are they are they elevating themselves on a pedestal um are they exerting is there a single man exerting authority over my church which is honestly that's not just nar that's all over the place um these are the kinds of questions that you can begin to ask yourself and and if those things are true then you're opening yourself up to harm and we say we would say okay that is uh that is a scenario where you probably should look for a different church uh but i would also say there are some people who have put every charismatic church in the gnar category it's not fair and that's not fair and and even as we said there's there's a scale of gnar yeah okay and so it's just not monolithic and so we we need to have some grace for each other uh and i i consider people who are part of the gnar even even those who are deep gnar to be brothers deep state yeah and brothers and sisters in christ okay i would okay now robert henderson i would i would say he teaches heresy but i i think that's maybe like 11 on the scale of one to ten so anyway be careful walk in discernment but we do consider these are brothers and sisters so so i think that would be mine and i would we need to talk about a scale right i would say that i was on a one out of the eleven i don't think that my church was practicing all of these wacky experiences or teachings or anything but we did have the language the speaking in novel language as a way to one maybe sound spiritual maybe just because the culture of the people that were around us they just adopted some of the language they didn't have any of the practices and they thought the practices were weird i would really encourage you that if you're hearing a lot of these words just begin to have the conversation with your spouse with your family with the close people at your church going what do these words mean when we're saying these things like they sound real lofty they sound really important but what do they mean go talk to your pastor ask them what do you mean by this because you might find that this is actually the gateway that will help this is the portal into you discovering some discernment right and going hey maybe this is dangerous maybe you have a completely orthodox church that you should absolutely continue going to they should absolutely sacrifice into and serve into and you just have adopted some weird language and then maybe encourage them to go hey go watch this episode of remnant radio i think that language is concerning to some folk and it's not really helpful in building unity and building up the body of christ so i anyway that's what i would say those are my thoughts on it this should be the the way that you start that conversation yeah yeah anyway yeah yeah radio entirely crowdfunded so if you've been blessed by this episode and you want to give do that links in the description you can do a paypal or uh you know patreon so it's five bucks a month we have a vote on what book we're going to do next is it a watchman knee book is it a book uh a german guy who was a part of the hitler assassination bonhoeffer uh or watchman tozer watchman knee or bonhoeffer three books that are mentioned very good you can vote on them if you have on patreon and then you'll be part of that book club and every week we'll go through a chapter of that or a couple chapters of that and discuss it as a group to be a lot of fun people love that kingdom of the colts kingdom of the cult was a lot of fun it was a lot of really great stuff that we we went through this is very much more discipleship less less like discernment this is really good josh leading you in a book study every saturday yup right so that's part of a benefit of patreon do it blessings guys we'll see you next week next week subscribe button tomorrow talk about visions and dreams from the desert fathers how to discern them how to know if they're from a devil how to know if they're from god uh those things actually were talked about in the first couple of hundred years of the church and wednesday with dr storms yeah who makes us call themselves a storm is a bruin

Channel: The Remnant Radio

Views: 13,001

Keywords: NAR, new apostolic reformation exposed, new apostolic reformation explained, new apostolic reformation movement, new apostolic reformation false teaching, new apostolic reformation leaders, New Apostolic Reformation, NAR Vocabulary, New Apostolic Reformation Vocabulary, NAR teaching, NAR explained, NAR Exposed, NAR Leaders

Id: HwxFFY3qe8I

Length: 61min 49sec (3709 seconds)

Published: Mon Sep 27 2021