Bethel Redding & Modern Apostles: A Biblical Analysis

welcome to the Elisa Childers podcast where we equip Christians to identify the core beliefs of historic Christianity discern its counterfeits and proclaim the gospel with Clarity kindness and truth and that's what we're hoping to do today we have a topic that might be a bit sensitive and the reason I say that is because I predict that many people who might even be regular listeners of this podcast as we unfold the conversation today you might begin to even notice some of the teachings that we're addressing today might be taught in your church maybe that might be confusing because maybe your church is clear on the gospel they teach the substitutionary atonement of Jesus Christ the second coming they teach that Jesus is God and they don't hesitate on any of those topics maybe they have a good biblical ethic when it comes to sexuality in things like abortion and so it can be confusing just for someone to come along saying hey here's an unbiblical teaching and then you might recognize it in your churches here's what I want to ask today I'm just I'm talking from my heart here I'm just asking you to keep an open mind so we're going to be talking today about the movement called the New Apostolic Reformation I have a couple of guests on that have written a new book that I truly believe is maybe the most important book released this year and I say that having released a book this year the reason I say that is because this movement of the New Apostolic Reformation is a very tricky thing to discern I myself found myself in a church that was increasingly being influenced by the ideas of the Nar guys this was even after I had started my blog and even had a podcast in fact many of you where we call that I had an episode on the New Apostolic Reformation I believe it was back in maybe 2018 maybe 2017. I I have to go back and look but one of the reasons I went ahead and did that podcast is because I had just come out of a church that got swept up in this and so it's something that's very near and dear to my heart and I want to be very sensitive to anyone listening today who might recognize some of these key teachings in your church I would just encourage you to keep an open mind pray stay engaged with the conversation ask the Lord to to show you truth ask the Holy Spirit to illuminate truth to you and please know that in addressing this movement nobody is saying that people who go to Nar churches are not Christians nobody is saying that um there aren't many genuine Christians in churches that teach some of these things what I think we're hoping to do is sound the alarm in fact this book has been described as a wake-up call and I think it will serve to be that I it's my prayer that it will be that I myself needed that wake-up call when I found myself in a church that was influenced by some of these teachings even after my apologetics Ministry started so I'm right there with you so again uh I won't belabor it but keep an open mind I do think this is possibly the most important book of the year it's called counterfeit Kingdom the dangers of new revelation new prophets and New Age practices in the church it's been written by Holly pivic who has a Blog at hollypivic.com she blogs about this movement quite often and then her co-author there is Douglas guivit who is Professor of philosophy at Talbot there at Biola University and together they have produced a book that is gentle charitable thorough well-researched and truthful and I'm had the privilege of interviewing them in studio when they were both in town for a conference so they came over to the house and we got to have a meal together and then sit down and record this podcast so I would just like to encourage my listeners hear them out buy their book I'm going to be buying lots of these books to be giving out to pastors when I go and speak at churches I really want the church to become aware of what's going on in a movement that's incredibly influential largely through the worship music that they produce that most churches most are singing right now so I will take you now to my conversation with Holly and Doug [Music] my guests are Holly pivik and Doug guivit Holly writes a Blog almost exclusively dedicated to this topic and they've written other books on this topic as well and Doug is the professor of philosophy at Talbot School of Theology at Biola University so guys thank you so much for coming no we're in studio which is fun because I don't always get to have in studio guests so you guys are in town for a conference and I was just so glad that you were able to stop by and join the podcast today so let's just start for for people who may be completely unaware of what the Nar is of course this podcast talks a lot about Progressive Christianity and there's some overlap with Nar there but it's it's a different movement in fact very often I think people confuse the two I'll have people ask me about maybe an Nar thought leader and say oh this is a progressive and I'll say well actually that's something else that's called the New Apostolic Reformation so Holly let's start with you what is the New Apostolic Reformation right the New Apostolic Reformation or Nar or Nar for sure is a fast-growing Global movement and it's led by church leaders who claim to be Apostles and Prophets and they claim that they must govern the church and they must actually hold the highest authoritative roles in the church even about pastors or elders and the reason for that is they claim to be giving critical new revelation that all Christians must receive so that those Christians so every Christian can learn how to gain miraculous Powers such as Healing The Sick raising the dead and prophesying and the purpose of that is so that the church can rise up as like this miracle-working Army and bring God's physical Kingdom to Earth but the Core teaching of the New Apostolic Reformation is that Apostles working together with prophets must govern the church that's what sets it apart apart from say Pentecostal or charismatic teachings where they do believe in the present Day gifts of the holy spirit such as prophesying or healing or speaking in tongues but this movement is goes far beyond that and says that these Apostles and Prophets must hold these authoritative governing hierarchical type rules in the church and that all pastors and and then by extension all Christians who come under those pastors uh submit to them and receive their New Revelations right and I'm glad you brought that up because there there have been Pentecostal and charismatic leaders that have that have come alongside you and saying look we all do need to be concerned about this it's not we're not just talking about the Charismatic Church in general this is sort of a a movement maybe could you say within the charismatic church because because it typically Nar is charismatic but it's not all charismatics would you say that's right it goes Way Beyond what charismatic that Nar people do believe in the gifts of the holy spirit like prophesying and speaking in tongues and and emphasize those things as charismatics do but then they go much further right in saying that these Apostles and Prophets must be the ones who govern govern in the church and it really um the latter rain movement of the post-world War II era was really a pre-course precursor to this movement and it kind of fizzled out after the Assemblies of God Pentecostal denomination um denounced that movement and so it kind of fizzled out kind of went underground but then resurfaced starting in 1980s 1990s when governing prophets and apostles started rising up in the church now real quick what would be the difference between say um viewing and because I've heard some pastors talk about Apostles as more like Messengers or church Planters or some kind of maybe uh somebody who goes to another church as an itinerant speaker with a message what would be the difference between using the word that way and what what you guys are talking about either one of you can can take that well maybe we could both chime in on that I would say that the main difference is that the apostles exercise Authority in a church of a governing sort but they also provide covering for the congregation or for people who submit to the authority of the Apostle the prophets themselves have the capacity to reveal new truths they could be theological truths they could be truths of divine guidance for individuals or for local congregations or they could have National and international significance so that's a a big claim that they make about the nature of their Authority Apostles might be viewed by some as simply people who plant churches and Foster new movements of the the church around the world but this is different because the presence of the Apostle in the church is required for God to bless the church in some of the ways that maybe Holly would like to describe well and and the big thing is is that they claim to be bringing new Revelation critical Revelation that their followers in some cases these Apostles and Prophets would say they're giving Revelation that's for the global church and so and so that's very different than someone just claiming to you know I founded a church and then that church started some new churches and I'm kind of overseeing that this uh you know Church movement or something like that those those claims go far beyond that these Apostles exercise a special Authority and virtue of the relationship they have with God as Apostles and so they provide covering uh for protection of their whoever Falls within well really people who are submissive the submissive side is the other side of the coin it's they have authority and then people who live under that Authority um submit in effect and that's how they receive the blessings that are promised through uh the ministry of this this Apostle and through the various Nar practices I mean uh very quickly we could get into issues related to how they interact with angels to involve angels in activity in human Affairs and you have to have Apostles that are playing this uh crucial role for some of these things to even happen right for just jumping off of that um Chris Valentin is a leader at Bethel Church in Redding California he's the chief Prophet there working together with Bill Johnson who's the chief Apostle and um Bethel Church for those who don't know in reading is the leading Church in this movement today it's part of the the larger New Apostolic Reformation movement even though the leaders of that church may not readily admit it's part of the New Apostolic Reformation it does promote the core teachings as we talked about governing Apostles and Prophets and and um who are bringing new revelation but this was a this is a quote by Chris Valentin talking about um if you're under the authority of Apostles and and how and um I'll just read it here when we when we pray and prophesy in the name of the Lord the Angels hear the voice of the Lord and go out to perform it but we can only declare a word of the Lord that commissions and sins Angels if we are under Authority and therefore have authority and in the context of this book he's talking about the authority of Apostles that's from his book heavy rain and then in another book the supernatural ways of royalty Chris Alton writes do the Angels always go out and answer everyone's prayers I don't believe they do because they recognize people who are under submission to an Apostolic Mission and so the teaching being that um you can make prayer declarations and we can maybe talk about that later but you can make prayer declarations that the angels will actually go out and carry out and fulfill um but you can only do that if you're submitted to the authority of an apostle otherwise your prayer declarations won't be answered and so this is a totally different kind of claim than just like what we're saying like someone who might call themselves an apostle but they just kind of oversee a group of churches and they're not claiming to have this kind of extraordinary Authority right okay so you mentioned Bethel and I think that's you know people ask all the time like what about Bethel what's going on at Bethel because um this is another reason I think your book is so important is because this isn't just kind of a fringe movement that a few people over here are believing um arguably bethel's the most influential of the churches that are promoting these teachings and these practices but it uh it gets in absolutely everywhere through the worship music right so everybody I guarantee you anybody watching this podcast there's a really good chance I mean a very strong chance that you have sang a battle song at your church even if you're it doesn't matter if you're Presbyterian Southern Baptist or where you're coming from you've probably seen one of their songs so I just want to impress upon people um how influential this is and even amongst churches that may not be charismatic they might not even be somebody that bethel's actual teachings would be on their radar but we're going to talk about the music in a little while but maybe a good bridge to that also to give our audience a picture of how this kind of manifests on social media and everyday life there was a situation that happened I believe maybe a year or two ago and it's remembered as the wake up Olive you know thing that happened and so one of the worship leaders from Bethel tragic I mean you know my heart just breaks telling this story because I remember watching this on social media but their little girl had died uh in the night I guess in her sleep and rather than you know begin the process of mourning and and all of the things that that people would typically do they began to declare that she was going to be raised from the dead and so the hashtag wake up Olive uh caught on on social media on Instagram um why don't you Doug tell us a little bit about the wake up all of uh sort of a phenomenon that happened on social media and uh and then we'll go from there okay well yeah so uh Olive was I I believe about two years old and uh she died unexpectedly and the parents were are not only members of the church Bethel Church in Redding California but also um active in the ministry of the church I think her mother was involved in the music side of the ministry of the church and uh he described it well uh there was this appeal to um pray prayers of Declaration that all of would be resurrected or raised from the dead and it was fully expected and it was Global this um expectation just spread like wildfire around the world and really in addition to believing that she would be raised there was the belief that by participating in the prayers of Declaration and praying in this way with this expectation that would enable its occurrence that would actually Foster and increase the chances that this would happen this is one of the problems with the view is its doctrine of prayer and how our prayers by um sort of growing and congealing around a common concern worldwide somehow get answered more effectively than otherwise so there was that now um and and they were quite consistent in expecting this and and uh praying this way and expecting it really to to to happen literally uh until about the fourth day I think it was the fourth day that they announced that uh there was actually going to be a funeral for six days or was it the same as the six days okay so um so that's quite a long time to hold out hope that this would happen and uh and then it didn't happen uh I feel the same way you do you know the the the concern for the parents and just uh lamenting the loss you know and this happens to so many I mean how it happened in my home when I was a child when I was five years old I lost a brother who was two years old and uh the same thing and uh but in this case for some reason it was believed that in in her case she would be raised from the dead and you could confidently declare this in a form of prayer that would help to bring it about and I think it's especially tragic when something as painful as that happens and then it's in the context of expecting something that God is just going to do and then he doesn't come through he doesn't do it you have to explain this and this is another thing that's striking about this case is everything just went silent there are no explanations we don't hear from Bill Johnson or Chris Valentine at Bethel Church explaining uh how the they could possibly be mistaken about this and so I think it's a case of uh pastoral malpractice when you raise expectations you teach people to pray this way and believe this way and then not only does it not happen but you've got nothing to say that would explain why yeah I remember so vividly when this was all going on because I was you know I'd already had you both on the podcast and you were on previously to debate with Dr Michael Brown about whether or not Nar is a real thing or not you know because some people claim this isn't even a real a real movement and uh I I remember seeing the post and thinking surely this is still this isn't going to catch on right this is just kind of a Bethel thing that maybe a few people and then it'll fizzle and just grieving parents you know I just thought it was like then I'm watching it catch on I'm watching major nationally known worship leaders join their voices declaring that this little girl was going to be raised from the dead and uh I can I'm researching deconstruction right now I can hardly fathom the The Fallout from an event like that now that's a real big one that's one we've saw you know manifest so largely on social media and you're right I remember a few days I would check it every day and I remember there was one day even where I believe Bill Johnson even came on and said they're standing with the family and that was even still kind of surprised me because I just thought this is this is so really such a bizarre kind of way to respond to this then every night they would show the worship services that they were having and um just lots of this declaration so let's let's talk about the prayer because um we we just had lunch together before we came here and and one of you I can't remember which one of you said it but it was so profound to me um and that's that a lot of times when people come out of this movement they don't know how to pray and they they feel really stunted in prayer because is that prayer is such a huge part of this movement it's a very specific Theology of prayer so I wonder if one of you could talk about that yeah well um so so in this movement it is taught that the type of prayer that is the most effective or powerful is is prayer making prayer declaration so you know what would that look like right so so normally traditionally historically what we think of when we think of Christians think of prayer is making humble requests petitions requests of God asking him you know if it's your will God you please heal this person or or this or that but um with making prayer declarations it's declaring that such and such will happen declaring that a healing will occur or declaring that finances will come through for something and and it's believed that the spoken word actually creates reality much the way that that God spoke in Genesis and and created and this is a Word of Faith teaching that has been incorporated into the new Apostolic Reformation so it's seen as like this lost truth that was restored through the word of faith movement and then it's it's part of Gnar a really pivotal part of Nar Theology and so the leaders in this movement go so far is to say that nothing happens without declarations being made so they're even in the writings of of leaders of this movement um like Bill Johnson they'll say that even Christ's first coming it only happened because prayer declarations were being made by like Simeon and Anna and um and that his second coming won't even occur in until the church is making prayer declarations and so literally nothing happens in the kingdom of God without be first there being prayer declarations that are being made and um interestingly though they often just refer to it as prayer and what they mean is prayer declarations often so like when this Olive incident happened you know in in the media and they were being criticized because major media picked up that story large newspapers and and they were saying things like we're just praying we're just we're we're just praying that it's you know people are like what's wrong with them praying to ask this little girl to be raised from the dead who could object to that but they weren't just praying uh like like Christians normally think of prayer they weren't making quest of God they were declaring that she would be raised from the dead and that's a totally different thing and so what you'll find in this movement is they often equivocate on terms like prayer and that's one way this movement has been able to grow and gain so much influence um among unsuspecting Christians is because they'll use terms like prayer but they've redefined it and given it a new meaning in many cases or talking about making prayer declarations yeah and so they're able to kind of stay under the radar well Doug your your philosophy Professor so she just mentioned they're equivocating can you help our audience understand like what is the equivocation fallacy and you know how how might that manifest in an example in this movement well you can use you can equivocate in an argument and commit a fallacy which is a mistake in reasoning it's a crime against logic yeah uh or you can equivocate just by switching up the way you're using terms without using them in an argument so you might not be committing a fallacy just because you're equivocating so in the simplest sense of the term it just means that a word that is being that is used with one sense in mind somehow switches during the course of conversation to have a different sense and it might be that people are parties to the discussion don't catch on to the switch they don't notice the sleight of hand or the change in language or meaning of the same language so here it's prayer the key word is prayer and so when we talk about prayer and we are prayerfully expecting God to respond to our desires for healing for someone for example we would call that petition but we don't always use the word petition let's say we pray for that person all right well now in Gnar they might pray for that person and use that language but the equivocation occurs when they load that language with something different than petition they mean something different by it than petition and we believe what they mean by it is something that's foreign to scripture so it's actually an unbiblical form of Prayer of invoking God's power and there are all sorts of religious Traditions that have prayer as part of the practice and they seek to invoke the power of God to change things in the world and there are different ways to think about what that is we think that what narfolk have done is they've invested the concept of prayer which should be a Biblical concept of petition with different meaning that you can actually associate with other religious traditions where you're invoking God's power and you're using as a kind of lever to make things happen in the world as if you're harnessing divine power and so the equivocation is in the change up in the use of the term in a in in what you presume to be a shared context of understanding but because the language is is the same that's no guarantee that the context of understanding really is the same yeah so you when you're mentioning some of the quotes from earlier Holly and you and then you're talking about you mentioned Doug that the way that this prayer happens is really foreign to scripture as you were reading the quotes Holly I was thinking where is this coming from because if you read the Bible you don't you don't find information like that in the Bible there's nowhere that I can think of in scripture that's telling New Testament Christians hey you have to submit to an apostle uh and you're you're in Disobedience to God if you don't do what they say um in the in the sense obviously we have the the apostles right who are authoritative in writing our New Testament and these were commissioned by Jesus so is the is where they're getting it scripturally from that idea uh like it do they believe these Apostles are on par with Peter and Paul or how does that work out theologically well first of all leaders in this movement pretty much unanimously will say that the apostles and Prophets today don't claim to be equal to the 12. they differ on whether where Paul stands but but um but even though they do say that um pretty much what they mean is that Apostles and Prophets today can't write new scripture but um but the truth is they give critical new revelation it's seen as critical this Revelation is seen as that that God's kingdom can't be brought to Earth you know unless um Christians are receiving these new strategies that are being revealed by the apostles and Prophets such as like the seven Mountain mandate and um and supposedly a strategy God has given for for the church under Apostles and Prophets to take control of the seven major societal institutions like media government education and you know Etc and so um and so um what what they'll say though is that the apostles and Prophets receive prophetic illumination into the scriptures and so they could look at a verse or a passage of scripture and it's like a light bulb goes on and it's like they receive Revelation into a new understanding of this passage that nobody has ever seen before and so they'll say it's based on scripture and they'll say that they're you know that we have to everything's based on scripture but at the same time they're bringing new meanings to scripture that have never been seen before for example the the reading uh the example I read by Chris Belton about angels um well only um fulfill the prayers or the prayer Declarations of those who are submitted to the authority of Apostles well he he claims that he got that teaching from um in Corinthians where it talks about head coverings and women and wearing head coverings and and that it's a sign of submission and and that the um the it's important for women to wear head coverings uh so as I can't remember the exact wording but uh because uh being aware of the pre the angels and and so he would say that you know well he received insight into this passage that that that shows that um when we're submitted to apostles then we're recognizing uh Authority and then the Angels see that and fulfill our prayers right so how did the prophets and apostles work together in these in these movements in these churches well uh I believe that he they make the distinction but in some ways they do similar things I think Apostles will often presume to be able to prophesy but prophets are specially tasked with uh discerning divine revelation and it could be new truths that are not particularly associated with any passage of scripture or it could be special insight into the meaning of a passage so there's some overlap in terms of their activity and their function but I think in general the idea is that the new Revelations come through the prophets and the apostles when they're not functioning prophetically themselves are really the ones who uh determine how the program is implemented at the church or at the at the national or International level if it may if it is on such a scale um they're sort of the generals of the army right uh who do the the ultimate strategizing but they receive Revelations themselves as well and Bill Johnson who would be the Apostle uh best known Apostle at uh Bethel church has received Revelations from God and he's talked about his experiences and some of its Divine illumination of scripture um when Holly was speaking to that I was thinking of times when I've heard him say that the spirit of God when he's reading the passage of scripture in the Old Testament let's say the spirit of God is breathing on these words in the moment that he is reading and as this is happening he happening he is receiving special insight into the meaning of that passage and the meaning could be uh its significance just as pure content or it could go beyond that it usually does go beyond that as having special application to his congregation or to a situation so then he can preach on Sunday morning what he received not as a result of just exegetical study of the scripture but of experiencing illumination into the text as the spirit in that moment is breathing on those words not that he'll explain exactly what that's like what breathing on the words means is is that uh are we talking about the words on the page are the pages you know fluttering in the breeze ease or it doesn't go into any details about what the experience is like but that's the language he'll use and the result the upshot is he sees things in the text that you wouldn't see or that he wouldn't see if the spirit and hadn't the spirit hadn't acted in that special way in that moment so we've talked about the governing Authority being the apostles and then there's these prophets that also receive this supposed you know general or direct Revelation from the Holy Spirit um what why is that so dangerous why do you guys why is it so important to you to say look we need to warn churches about this churches need to protect themselves against these teachings what do you see being the big danger here uh let's just talk about periphery for a moment again think about that uh if the Bible gives us models of prayer examples of prayer the model prayer that Jesus gave his disciples and so forth and declaration prayer is not part of the biblical concept of prayer but it is the dominant way that they pray in this movement then people are effectively Christian people effectively living a prayerless life they are missing out on the true experience of prayer as intended by God designed by God and Illustrated throughout the scriptures by adopting a concept of prayer and a form of prayer that's completely foreign to scripture so that by itself is one really significant loss to the church and to the individual and we know that prayer is critical to our own experience of intimacy with God and um really we should be praying for um the healing of individuals but to do it with a proper prayer of faith and not this kind of almost superstitious practice where your words somehow leverage God's action in the world um if you do it just the right way and with just the right amount of faith and that's another issue is Faith what does faith look like on this on this View and it seems like what drives this expectation that God is going to heal is the belief that God does want everybody to be well right he ex you know that is a deep expectation that if you're not well that's somehow a violation of God's will for your life and uh and and it's never used as part of his vocation in your life to shape you and form you and and make you a more virtuous person more christ-like capable of compassion towards those who are suffering and so forth no God Wants You Well and so that's the expectation now we have to figure out how we partner with him to make that happen and prayer is a part partnership with God to bring that about I don't think I don't think that is Faith I think faith is when we can ask God for things knowing that he wants to give us our desires but he wants them to be good for us at the same time and that's all things considered and we don't know what that is so the reason why we pray and submit to his will is that we know he knows better than we do we can't pray consistent with every perfect thing that God in his wisdom knows and so that's why the prayer of faith should be one of submitting to the outcome of his will and the outworking of his will and saying Lord this is what we desire but we also know that you know much better than we do and we want that I think I've said you know I don't want to live a day longer than God wants me to yeah you know and we are all going to die and some of us are going to die from illnesses and so forth and uh that's just the way of the world for the time being and he rescues us from that when he raises us from the dead but um yeah I I don't want to ask God for something that I mean now there are things I want right and that I would like for him to want for me but and there are times I think the the things I want I already know better than to think he would want them but sometimes we simply don't know and so we have to say but maybe God you have something better in mind for me right and that's really ultimately what I want more than the thing that I can think of that would please me and the book um just for our listeners and our viewers just want to let them know that you've done such a beautiful job in the book you know you're not saying we shouldn't pray for healing you're not saying we shouldn't do these things in fact you even write a beautiful prayer for healing in the book that somebody could should just read and pray and I've had experiences like that in my own life even just on little minor things where you know I've got a big date where I've got to speak the next day and I can't sleep and I'm like you know in my choices do I say Lord I need to go to sleep help me go to sleep and I'm certainly going to ask him for that yeah but I've learned as I've gotten older my prayer now becomes Lord I'd really love to go to sleep and if you want to help me with that that'd be great but if there's some bigger thing that I that I need to learn through this like and I every time I I wake up with peace knowing that I'm relying on the Lord and my weakness he is strong and whether I slept or not you know it's not about me anyway and there's so such deeper lessons we can learn sometimes by not getting the outcome we would have asked for if we could just declare it into existence but uh so Holly what about you why why did you wanna why is this message so important to you because you you've been talking about this a long time right well since we wrote our last books um we've been contacted by countless people literally from around the world sharing stories of harm that they've personally experienced from this movement and in many cases uh that harm was linked to experiences that they've had through the teachings of Bethel church and reading and that's one reason our new book focuses on Bethel quite a bit um but as far as you know harm caused by this movement division is a really common thing that we hear in the letters we receive division in churches churches splitting because when you have Apostles and Prophets coming in that are claiming that everyone needs to receive their Revelations and submit to their Authority that's divisive and um people in the church you know take sides and they have to decide and and it's literally splits churches um this movement has caused a lot of division in families we share some stories in our book um of uh you know kids that that um go off to Bethel School Supernatural Ministry and then just cut off their parents and um we've just heard heartbreaking stories of parents that haven't even been invited to their children's own graduations or weddings because after they get involved in this movement they've they they cut off their parents and it strain marriages uh is is something we've heard of um and um disillusionment because when Promises of healing are not you know when it doesn't happen when someone isn't healed um that can cause them to become very disillusioned in their faith and you know even in many cases people that have left in our churches will tell us that they um no longer go to church at all they don't feel like they can find a new church that they can trust um or they don't know how to to find the Sound Church um and or they can end up leaving the faith you know walking away completely sadly um uh spiritual abuse story we've heard a lot of stories of spiritual abuse that have occurred in churches where Apostles are just exercising this really heavy-handed leadership and um we share some of those stories in our book um and then there's damage to the church at large's reputation you know the Distortion of the gospel and this movement the gospel becomes it's not primarily about what Jesus did at the cross so we could have our sins forgiven and be reconciled in our relationship with God in this movement the gospel has become about taking Dominion it's about the church taking control of the nations of the societal institutions to bring God's kingdom to Earth and doing that through learning to work these Miracles and doing signs and wonders and so that becomes the focus of the gospel and so there's this Distortion of the gospel and then there you know the damage to the church at large is reputation when um with this the sort of gospel or with the prophecies like for example a number of leaders in this movement many prophets prophesied that President Trump would be re-elected to a second term in office and uh in 2020 and when he wasn't then um you know that was those prophecies were picked up by the major media Outlets uh they and and then it was became a cause of um for mocking Christians like the friendly atheist is a well-known blogger and and you know he he uh was mocking all Christians because of these failed prophecies yeah and so it just gave ammunition to the atheists or people who would like to discredit Christianity um so and and all in all what this movement is is doing really is it's redefining the Christian faith it's it's really defining the gospel it's redefining what prayer is it's redefining faith and so um you know my background being in apologetics um that's something that really really concerns me when the gospel gets distorted and when the base is for faith is young people are being taught that the basis for their faith is that they should be looking for miracles to be happening all the time which can sound very exciting yeah it can be I think it's so appealing to so many people because they might go into a church and maybe they've been in a church that's a little on the dry side and then they go into in any our church and the music is top-notch the singers are amazing the musicians are amazing we're going to get to the music in a second but I want to Circle back to the Trump prophecies because I think that when when you guys are talking about how important it is to make people aware of this it gets in everywhere and I see it everywhere and that was one area where you have and this is the thing that's sort of slippery about the Nar is none of these people are saying hey by the way we're all in a movement called the Nar and we'd like you to join us it's like Progressive Christianity it slips in here and there through different Avenues in different ways and my big concern about those Trump prophecies was that you have these quote unquote profits that are saying Trump's going to be reelected God has revealed this it's going to be done and then that led a lot of people who may have never heard of Nar to to then conflate God's trustworthiness with the outcome of the election and that really tied together I think in a in a detrimental way for a lot of Christians their political views and their religious views in the sense that in in some cases I I'm afraid to say that or I I should say I'm sad to say it seems like the gospel was conflated with politics so like Trump getting elected was sort of synonymous with God being faithful and true and good in the gospel being real and that is a huge danger that's a huge danger and that's the thing also about Nar that you know of course I'm not nearly as well studied as you two are but as I've observed it's a it can be harder to discern than say something like a progressive Christianity Progressive christianities not that difficult you're going to have a shift on biblical sexuality you're going to have a shift on abortion you're going to start to deny hell you're going to start to deny the substitutionary atonement of Jesus there are very clear boxes that get unchecked in Progressive Christianity but Nar is tougher to discern because they're going to be pro-life they're going to for the most part hold to a Biblical sexual ethic they're going to check all the boxes on the core gospel claims right they're going to write songs about them and so it can be very very confusing for a lot of Christians who might feel the excitement of the movement and the music and not realize that these practices are really harmful when we base what we think is harmful and all of that in objective truth and the objective truth of God's revealed word then we do we can know what's harmful and there is a ton of spiritual abuse coming out of this movement and so uh again I'm just so thrilled you guys are addressing it uh before we get to the music I want to talk about the passion translation because many Christians Also may be unaware that the passion translation uh is I forget the the chapter of your book at what you call it it was it was a clever title I think the the title of the chapter there but yeah it's kind of it's like every kind of you know movement ends up getting their own translation like you know you have a passionately wrong Bible they're passionately wrong Bible I think that was it so talk about that of course we've talked about that on the podcast and I always recommend people go to Mike Winger's uh series on this he did a really good job very thorough bringing Scholars on to talk about it but just give us a little overview of the passion translation and and why Christians should should be wary of it yeah I'll say something and then Doug can say something if he wants to but um so the passion translation is a translation of the Bible well it's said to be a translation produced by a Nar Apostle named Brian Simmons and he claims that in 2009 Jesus Christ visited him in his room breathed on him and commissioned him to write a new Bible translation and he actually said that Jesus told him he would give him secrets of the Hebrew language he would give him the spirit of Revelation to help him make this translation and um and so the problem though is so so Simmons lacked the qualifications to produce a translation of the Bible and he claims it's a translation he's very clear it's not a paraphrase this is a translation but what this translation has done uh is it he's taken Nar teachings and practices and smuggled them into the text and the effect is is it makes it actually appear that the uh Bible you know support season our teachings and I had an example here um in his passion translation so so in the NIV or or in other translations of the Bible this is from the NIV it says these are the names of the 12 apostles this is from Matthew 10 12. it says these are the names of the 12 apostles first Simon who is called Peter and it goes on you know that's from the NIV the passion translation though it said now these are the names of the first 12 Apostles so he added one friend these are the names of the 12 apostles to now these are the names of the first 12 Apostles Simmons inserted the word first there and it seems clear given his his Nar views uh that he the reason he did that was to make it to open the door for for more Apostles uh to come and but there was no reason no basis in the text for him to add that word and um that's just one example of he's he's done that with we in our book in our chapter we give many more examples of that um but it's very concerning because people because he he has described it as a translation that's a translation that people can trust they can use for their primary method of Bible study people do do that many people in the Nar are still in very well and then you have leaders like Bill Johnson who've endorsed the passion translation sometimes he preaches from it in the pulpit and so it's become wildly popular it's selling really really well unfortunately and many people have begun to use this especially in the Nar movement or in even in charismatic churches as their Bible their primary Bible yeah is it still on the on the Bible app I think last time I checked I may have heard maybe they're removing it but um it was removed from gateway gateway gateway removed it from their list of translations so that was very encouraging last I heard I think it was still on the Bible app and I'm not sure about it so an unsuspecting person goes to the Bible app they start looking at different translations and there they have the first of the 12 apostles and you know that that that's I think again just to help people realize like this is not isolated this is something that's going to get into your Bible app it's going to get into your Christian bookstore it's going to come in through your worship music so just you know just want to encourage people to really be aware of how this when you call it a translation and then you insert words you're misrepresenting what you've done uh a translation will be faithful to the manuscripts that we have the best manuscripts that we have we don't have the original writings we have copies of The Originals and you do you talk about this very eloquently and very uh I think very insightfully and very uh clearly in your book thank you I liked it a lot I was reading it again listen but uh how you know we can trust the manuscripts that we have to give us an approximation of the original they're called the autographer right the the autographs um a translation should represent in a natural language like English uh what it said in the Greek or the Hebrew or in the few Aramaic passages that there are but uh he doesn't do that you can't find the word first in that passage in Matthew there is no good manuscript where it says you know here's a list of the first 12 Apostles first is in there and so you have to ask yourself well how did it get in there why is it in there and that's a theological agenda that he has but there are some that are even more egregious than that there's John 14 12 for example Jesus said to his disciples he had his disciples with him he was they were in the upper room his hours were almost up and he said to them among other things he said the works that I have done you will do also and Greater Works than these he used the word works and there's a Greek word for works that's the characteristic English word for the Greek word that is used there Simmons uses the word miracles he inserts the word Miracles now and he adds he changes to Mighty Miracles and it's mighty Miracles and greater Miracles so now you might say well that's an innocent thing to do if that's what Jesus is talking about maybe he is talking about miracles yeah okay maybe not too so what you have to do is you have to use the word in English that is the closest approximation to the word used by the author so that then you can decide what is the likelihood that this means Miracles or other works or both Miracles and other words but he just makes that decision for the reader and calls it a good translation which it simply is not but there's clearly an agenda there because you'll hear Bill Johnson say for example when he preaches that Passage even if he uses a translation that uses the word Works he'll say that has to be Miracles it couldn't be anything else but Miracles you know you'd have to be dense not to see that well that's simply not true and biblical Scholars know better than that but readers don't have the benefit of that discernment on the part of the real trained translator a skilled translator sticking Faithfully to what the manuscripts permit so this is a serious problem now Simmons has made some adjustments which is another thing that's kind of telling because you know he purports that he receives this with special help from the Holy Spirit and yet when he comes under criticism such as the criticisms that we've raised and others that were on the show that you described he'll make some adjustments it doesn't make a big deal out of it he doesn't announce oh I've just made it you know a change I've retracted my translation in this verse but he'll do that and if he as he does that he is in effect saying and I was wrong I got that wrong how did he get it wrong is the question right if the mechanism for producing it is the way he said if it came from the spirit of God in the way that he described so that's a very telling editorial component in his in his activity I'm glad you mentioned that because the passage I read from Matthew 10 12 he has changed that so that was that's one case that was before he updated the translation he had added the word first 12 Apostles well after he came under criticism for adding that word first he just silently removed the word first so if you get the updated passion translation and now we'll read more summer you know more similar to the other translations but that's what he does when he's called out for for something like that um he'll just he'll just change it and update the translation without right mentioning that he had done that so he's you know obviously and I know there have been a lot of updates to the passion translations I've kind of followed that a little bit um and and then you have again we mentioned the prophecies that were all untrue they came they came untrue right what's the Trump prophecies the Trump prophecies yeah so what is the what what happens when like how is that explained when somebody saying I'm hearing directly from God I'm a prophet this is what the Lord has said is going to happen or this is what the Lord says this verse means or the Holy Spirit has enabled me to translate this verse this way right and then it's wrong it's it's it's false how is that explained people need to be aware that there is now within the church um a sector of teachers saying that a new testament Prophet or someone with the gift of Prophecy today or we're talking about people who purport to have the office of a prophet they can make mistakes they can get things wrong that they can receive what they believe is revelation from God present it without qualification this is what's going to happen and then be wrong and it doesn't disqualify them as prophets if they are wrong now we think that's mistaken we think that's false as itself in itself as a teaching but there are biblical reasons for challenging that view but there are practical reasons too think about it if you learn that your best prophets the most likely profits in your community are also getting things wrong and that's okay then nothing they ever tell you is really truly ever actionable in the moment that you receive it because it's always possible that what they're telling you did not actually come from God it came from someplace else and that's another question too by the way is if you've got profit after profit saying that so and so is going to get reelected and he doesn't you have to wonder well if it didn't come from God what are they getting this stuff you know and I'm not even here to um presume to know I'm not going to say it here's where they're getting it I'm just saying it's got to be you got to be able to explain the error somehow how do you explain an error like that especially if it's committed by so many in this Gnar movement so that's a serious problem that that prophecies that purport to give you personal guidance Elisa Childers for tomorrow or the next day or for the future whether it's about raising your children or budgeting your finances or planning your vocation any of these things how is any of that actionable if you know that not only is it possible that this purported possible profit is getting it wrong but has a track record of getting things wrong it seems to me then you can never act confidently on the advice the council the direction that you're receiving um from a fallible prophet and and so I when it looked like President Trump wasn't going to get a second term when the election results were being contested I saw Bill Johnson on the victory Channel and he said that he believed that the profits would be Vindicated so he thought the outcome was going to go in in president Trump's favor and he he was calling on Christians to like add their voice to the prayer declarations that were being made that he that he would um win a second term and so that's a that's something they do too is they so and now that that didn't happen what Bill Johnson could always say is while enough Christians didn't add their voice and they weren't making enough people didn't make prayer declarations so there's always an out when you know and often the onus the blame is put on on the people you know if more people would made prayer declarations then that would have happened now think about the you know you go back to what are your concerns about this movement we've listed quite a few I think a pretty substantial concerns yeah but here's one basic concern is it induces anxiety uh it it creates a kind of legalism even within your experience of Christianity you don't think so but because you think no we're experiencing the spirit and that's liberating right we're experiencing Christian Living at the most liberal level because it's the spirit of God that we're interacting with but we don't even know that for sure in every case because sometimes our prophets get things wrong but in order to experience the full blessing of God whether it's healing or what have you the Fulfillment of a prophecy you have to be Towing the line you have to be chiming in you have to be in fall under the covering of the Apostle and be obedient and submissive and we know of testimonies of people who just feel exhausted spiritually and emotionally exhausted by the uncertainty of it all and the the level well on the level of emotion that you have to invest just to kind of keep this thing cranked up and this is interesting because oftentimes you'll see comparisons between a church like Bethel where it seems like it's so alive and exciting and you mentioned how you know um impressive the quality the music is and and all of all that and they compare that with other churches that in contrast they look dead they look like there's no life there's no Spirit there and we're not we can't be the judge of that and so what happens is you get a false impression or conception of what a live a church alive in the spirit really looks like I think the measure should be the full the the the realization the production of the Fruit of the Spirit love joy peace patience and some of these little country churches where they just don't have you know the professionalism and the spark and all that and you might go in there and say boy that can't Spirit can't be working there if you could just peel back the layers and see what that Community what the people are doing for each other there may be even healings of of illness and disease happening in that Community but you've got the wrong very prayer from petitionary prayer but you've got the wrong you're using the wrong litmus test I read a book recently came out in the last few months where the author a guy I know was advising uh Christians to become more tapped into the miraculous and and look for the miraculous on a on a grander scale than what they're used to experiencing and that means for him going and finding churches where the miraculous is always emphasized because you know what you're not going to find that in these boring churches that are you know preaching just the text if they can't report that Miracles are happening too and that just is I think that is bad pastoral uh advice so of course if we have the wrong criteria for evaluating the quality of a Church's life we might think that it's this church and not this church that's got it together yeah let's talk about music music yeah because that's the vehicle right yes it is that's really how it's getting into so many different places Holly talk about the music um obviously everybody's hurt like what what are some songs that are popular that people may not realize these are written from an archeology right so I think it's important for people to realize that many of the popular songs that are produced today are produced by churches that are part of the New Apostolic Reformation or are there churches that have been heavily influenced by the New Apostolic new episode Reformation so um of course Bethel Music uh Jesus Culture is a is a Nar Church Forerunner anything by Forerunner music that comes out of the International House of Prayer in Kansas City Missouri led by Mike Bickel um Gateway Worship Is heavily in our influence Hillsong music is heavily in our influence and um even even Elevation Worship many of their lyrics show signs of nor influence but um we talk about specific lyrics in our book and um what we talk about is how um the Theology of narc can be laced throughout the lyrics and people may not realize it all the time because they're using buzzwords in the music and so you have to know the buzzwords in order to recognize your theology but for example in the Bethel Music song be lifted High um there's a lyric they talk about how we will be the generation calling down the reign of heaven and um so so that lyric is alluding to teachings about making prayer declarations because you're calling down through your spoken words the reign of heaven and that's alluding to the idea that we're supposed to bring God's physical Kingdom to Earth and that the way we do that is through making these prayer declarations um and Bethel Music is even described in in their ad in their promotional materials as their lyrics as being declaration so people may not realize when they sing Bethel Music songs that is seen by by people at Bethel as as these people are joining in and singing and joining in and making their prayer declarations they are in fact choreographing declaration prayers in churches Across America right right and then so another Bethel Music song called Champion it it talks about just open your mouth and miracles start breaking out and so again you can see teaching about declaration and the idea that that Miracles will occur if you make these declarations there's another Bethel Music song it's called too good not to believe it talks about all of these different types of Miracles and there's a line in it that says don't you tell me he can't do it and so this song it depicts a reality where it depicts that we should expect miracles to occur that they should be routine and and there's another line in there um oh I don't know if I wrote down the other line here but um it's Miracles are presented as a sign of God's love for someone in this song So this isn't too good not to believe and when it says don't tell don't you oh yeah too good not to believe that that that um Miracles are signed with God's love for someone you'd have to look up the lyrics to get them exactly right but not expecting a miracle your chest chastise is having a lack of face when it says don't don't you tell me he can't do it and so a lot of Gnar music today is there's a real focus on Miracles even like resurrections from the dead or and things like that and it's not that again it's not that we don't believe that God does Miracles or that he can do Miracles that's not it at all but it's the idea that the music is conditioning people to believe to expect that Miracles should be routine they should be happening all the time and that it's a basis um for our faith it's a gauge of the quality of faith that you have right and this is I think a reason why in the praying for example there's such a reluctance to say not my will but thine be done who was I quoting to there just now I think it was Jesus but anyway there's a reluctance to pray that way because that looks like a lack of faith and that lack of faith can mean then that your prayer is diffused of power it just it doesn't have the power that it would have if you prayed with declaration you know with the Declaration right uh that it will happen and so the music is supposed to be performing a similar role and if you dare to say you know maybe that wasn't a miracle or uh even ask the question well I think that was a miracle what is the evidence that that was a miracle I think that's a perfectly appropriate question and that it isn't even that we should automatically assume that it is as long as we're told that it is I think we should want more than that for evidence and that's a fake Builder evidence is actually a faith building so I would expect my faith to grow into and to accumulate um when I see God answer prayer and when I see prophecies actually come true um and yet we're supposed to believe just expect these things to be come true whether the track record is really that good or not so you know that that is a serious serious issue now here's the thing about the lyrics Holly could read lyrics like this and a person might say I don't really see the problem with those lyrics um and Miss what they mean because they don't know what the theology is that's being taught we talked about equivocation and how the same word prayer can mean different things you could be living a prayerless life while you think you're the most prayerful person in your in your town um and here you know you might think you're doing you know you're you're singing uh music that is perfectly in harmony with scripture but you don't know that you're it's choreographed to be praying declarations right so even an astute Theologian who isn't really tuned into what's going on in not her might not see what's the problem with a particular lyric and then there are questions about whether it even matters what the lyrics are there may be songs that are lyrically Innocent but it still would be imprudent for us perhaps to be singing those in our churches and there's another reason for that well what I want you to give us that reason because I want to say something publicly today because uh I've been on record people have asked me I get this question all the time you know should we sing Bethel and you know Nar songs in our churches if they're theologically sound yeah and so what I've always said up to this point and I'm on video saying this I'm written somewhere saying this as I always said because I come from the music industry and so I know sometimes it's hard to track down where a song comes from or you might have a co-write between an Nar person and someone who's not so much an Nar person because it's so much you know a mesh together and so what I've always said up to this point is Let each song stand on its own theologically if it's theologically sound I'll sing it if not um but I'm you you have persuaded me when I read your chapter in the book on this um I just you know want to go on record as saying it is now my position that if it all possible we should avoid singing those songs in our churches and um it you know when I'm this puts me in a tough position because now when I go to a conference let's say and it's worship time um I'm gonna probably have to just maybe pray or be be silent if it's not if I know that a song is coming from that no there might be songs I don't know you sometimes you don't find out till the end yeah um but I would urge worship leaders and pastors to think about moving in that direction because not only for the reasons you said and I know you're going to give another reason here but a one reason I would add too is with ccli they're making money every time churches sing these songs so we're effectively financing this movement when we sing their songs in churches and so um I think that that yeah I just I wanted to publicly say that and thank the two of you for your well-reasoned arguments on this because it really I finished that chapter and I said I'm going to have them on and I'm going to publicly change my position wow well thank you for that we thought really long and hard about our position on this and how to advise people we get the same question and one of the things that we've learned uh and you've confirmed this too uh from other people that are in the music industry Christian music industry is that they're getting this question a lot uh we've had a couple of them tell us this is the question I'm asked the most is it okay is it pretty basic way to ask the question is it okay for us to be singing Bethel songs or songs that are Gnar influenced or that are associated with an organization that has Gnar tendencies and so we've we've really wanted to give wise counsel on this and not come off you know shrill and um judgmental without really good reason uh for thinking that there are problems here and I think one of the most significant problems is that every song regardless of the lyrics is a channel it's a tributary back to Bethel Church for example so if it's Bethel Music one person once told us uh that he he was a music uh worship leader and he said that he finally concluded that it was like a gateway drug that it hooked people on the music and then it was an entree into the broader theology now what he probably didn't know and I wish I could quote verbatim was what Bill Johnson himself has actually said about the utility of the music to change people's minds when they wouldn't listen to straight teaching so in other words if you try to teach this to them straight they might not believe it but you put it in the music and you got him and he is saying that forbid not verbatim practically verbatim that's a pretty close paraphrase of what he's and it's a clear indication of what he believes and so we say in the book for example that in many churches uh and it's it's true regardless of the music that's being played it's very sobering that uh the music is like the catechism of the church today because it's the drum beat it's the literal drum beat and the regular repetition of the same phrases the same language and the theology that is being expressed by that language that you're hearing over and over and over again and in our churches it's probably proven to be the most effective way to communicate what you think is basic truth and many people have told us that the draw to Gnar to Bethel was initially the music yeah yeah so and Bill Johnson has also said that he views he views Bethel Music as a way to export the the uh beliefs the practices of the church throughout throughout the world so so so the problem with the even the lyrics that seem innocuous they seem innocent they seem even sound if if it's coming from a Nara church or like Bethel there's an agenda Behind the Music and when you use the music in your church you're helping helping further that agenda by introducing people in your churches to than our movement even if you don't realize that yeah well we we are out of time I feel like we could go a whole other hour on this and maybe we'll maybe we will maybe we'll we'll do a part two at some point but um I'd love for you both to just take maybe like a minute each and just share your heart I know there there are probably if I would have been listening to this as a worship leader five years ago I probably would have thought oh man you know just it's it's so we've got all our songs in our rotation everything's already all set I mean this is a big truck to try to back up right um and then there's probably pastors watching this thinking oh well this would never influence our church I don't need to worry about this or maybe there's there are people watching who are like yeah go to a church where I think it's theologically sound but we sing some Bethel songs um so there are people that are coming at this from different perspectives what what would just be your your heart your advice for for whoever might be listening to this today who might feel overwhelmed by all this information like what do I do with all this yeah okay well so I'll go first on this um it's very hard to put in a nutshell a nice simple answer to that set of questions that was a big one yes but um you know I'm a first of all I stress the importance of evidence right seek evidence for the claims that you hear if somebody purports to be an apostle ask him for the evidence why are you calling yourself an apostle or if you're not calling yourself one why are you functioning like you are one why do you act like you believe you're an apostle why do you let other people call you that I want to understand this because if you are then I should live my life a certain way under your Authority look for the evidence and that's just one example but always look for the evidence I would say always go to the scriptures and hold your preachers accountable to the scriptures um make them show you from scripture what it is that supports what they're teaching you and learn to read and study the Bible for yourself so that you can get that nutrition on your own and and don't depend on what others claim to know for everything you believe that's another important point I would say that when you're singing or when you're praying either one ask yourself these few questions number one what does this mean these words mean what exactly number two do I believe these words if that's what they mean can I say I believe them that could be when you're praying or singing the next question is should I believe them what's the evidence for these things in other words are they true and do I have good reason to believe that they're true I think prayer and singing would be revolutionized if people just ask those simple questions what do these words mean do I believe them and should I believe them if so on the basis of what evidence that's good that's great Holly yeah I would say uh for those who there may be people in your audience who think you know I've I don't think I've ever encountered this movement well um they likely have encountered this movement um and like we talked about just through Bethel Music or or every every large city every small town has churches that have come under the influence of this movement to some degree or another um and once they start learning to the buzzwords the teachings and the practices uh they will uh be able to recognize that for themselves and they'll probably start spotting it all the time like oh yeah that's part of Gnar um for pastors who think the Gnar may never come into their Church there probably already is some Gnar influence in their church at least among the people who attend their Church they may not know that there are people sitting in their pews who are listening to Bill Johnson sermons reading you know books written by Gnar leaders um of traveling to Bethel um it's um it likely there already is influence there among their people and they they don't realize it um you know people will will sometimes accuse us of we're just being divisive and and it's really important to have unity in the church but but you know what I want to say is um we're not breaking the unity of the church what's breaking the unity as people who have introduced these harmful dangerous destructive teachings into the church and we're simply trying to sound the alarm the alarm and warn people because um the teachings in this movement some of the teachings are serious error and they've caused a lot of damage and destruction in people's lives we hear all the time about this uh from people the harm that they've experienced from this movement so it's really important for people to become educated about this movement to learn how to recognize signs of its influence and and also once they do that to warn other people about it as well that's good well I want to thank my guests Holly pivik and Doug ivitt for just a great discussion today get this book it's called counterfeit kingdoms it's out now so order that Amazon wherever books are sold buy a copy for your pastor but I just want to thank you so much for tuning in today if you're watching on YouTube don't forget to subscribe and click the Bell icon because that's what will notify you every time we release a new video always helps if you you click like and share this somewhere on social media helps get the word out to more people and of course if you're listening on iTunes or wherever you're listening on the audio platforms leaving a great review will help trigger those algorithms in a good direction for us so thanks so much for watching and we'll see you next time [Music]

Channel: Alisa Childers

Views: 167,339

Keywords: apologetics

Id: lYAtKSua59M

Length: 78min 0sec (4680 seconds)

Published: Sun Nov 13 2022