Mindfulness & Self-Inquiry | Byron Katie & Jon Kabat-Zinn

there's actually only one conversation that ever happens here I was going to say we're moving from embodiment into mindfulness or and self- inquiry but we're not right are we John uh there's no moving from anything to anything it's just uh it's just different languaging around pretty much the same thing as I see it and uh that actually could be an interesting way to start because uh some people probably look at each of your work with mindfulness and self inquiry as as somewhat separate uh and what are you doing on stage together when you have different shticks different different games or different focuses and it could be kind of curious just to uh have you share a little bit about how you see your when you do teach or you do lead sessions what do you see yourself as leading and what do you and how there might be similarities or or different approaches uh to each of your work is that a good way to yeah so um what I appreciated and and what you appreciated by each other would be great what I appreciated this morning is sitting with you John with the sound and the clear Direction it was so clear and it came out of that it it felt to me that authentic experience of you in it so it was so easy just to sit by that well and just drop and drop in your words you know it's it's to me it's not like something you can practice and memorize didn't it feel that way you were just dropping in so simply and the visual so clear and allowing those answers to meet your questions and then more deeply again and more deeply again and as I see uh inquiry as I um offer it it allows people to to identify what they're the judgments that they're thinking and believing and then just drop into using those four questions as the guide a kind of dropping into the well like um there's something wrong with me with eyes closed and just sitting in is it true is it true and then just contemplating that the way we dropped into the well this morning and then noticing and this is what I appreciated about your discussion with eileene is noticing how you react when you believe the thought she described it so so well you know the the distance the worry the you know I can't say it better than she did because she also coming out of experience and authentic experience that we all know so well and what I love about inquiry that kind of guided mindfulness because we are mindfully focused on is it true focused on how we react the moment we believe the thought and all those emotions and then as e said it's so connecting and sitting with you was just so connecting all the way and experiencing that is embodiment and it's who am I without the thought without believing that you know those heart's judgments like for example there's something wrong with me I mean who am I without that I can hear I'm aware I'm present so as we mindfully using that beautiful term that you have attracted so so many of us to I I love it and and and you know sitting in that we become comfortable in our lives in in in the present moment and noticing the anticipating it's like if you want a little fear and Terror get a future and just in case that's not enough if you want a little depression get a past and notice how you react when you believe these thoughts it's like you're scattered but it's okay you know just notice who would you be without what you're thinking and believing that judgment in the moment and and aware and connected and and pres so John that seems how would you is how would you put in I know language never is the way the way you framed this you know was like okay are you and I the same or different are we think yeah is a familiar in the Zen tradition yeah uh because it undo the mind that thinks and so I like to think of all of these things and just a deep bow to you and nen for the earlier conversation and and I said this to her I mean she is so real and what struck me was when both of you uh when we allow ourselves to be vulnerable and not feel like oh I'm the person that has it all together and then I put on a front a mask so to speak uh and when we allow that to sort of dissipate we know it's there it's an Impulse but then dissipates then the authenticity is virt is not literal not I was going to say virtual embodiment and you saw it in in Eileen you saw it in yourself and just how modestly you spoke about how this began okay so that it's personal and at the same time it's not at all personal and that's I think what we're groping for it's like in some sense when you we ask those questions uh your questions or we listen deeply in the well maybe you realize that after the why am I really really really really really here maybe what came up was I don't know did anybody have I don't know come up some fundamental way so that's a form of knowing the not knowing but the knowing that you don't know is a very powerful transformative way of waking up which is the subject of this how do we actually wake up from the dream of all of the kind of thought stream and where almost always I mean one of the things about mindfulness as soon as you uh start to pay attention to what's on your mind let's say you've never heard of mindfulness never heard of meditation just invite people let's just watch what's coming up in the mind it's almost all future or past it's like the two places we most like to hang out and then you realize you actually make most don't like to hang out make real little of this a little of that exactly and so it becomes a kind of a a way of avoiding the actuality of the only only moment we're ever in and then if we're talking about inquiry that's a kind of deep investigation a deep looking into who am I as you said or what am I and also honoring the judgments you know the ego we have tried to kill we've shamed it we've blamed it we've tried to get rid of it but through inquiry we can identify these judgments these ego judgments identify them and give them a voice you know to meet them I see every judgment every thought every concept that runs through my head as as like a homeless child you know what are we going to do kick a kid right so that's in some sense you know kick them out you know we want to do that with our own kids occasionally we don't so if we see our thoughts as children and meet them through through as you know in in my words on inquiry these four questions and meet them with understanding they get a chance to just without being stopped or shamed or blamed or ignored you know your children won't ignore you when you want when they want something and they don't stop until they get it or whatever happens in that situation but thoughts are the same so it it gives them you know it gives this mind the ego mind a home in itself a place the rest where it doesn't have to scream where the mind is met with understanding and that's the end of War so all these thoughts from the past misunderstood create our future so really there's no thought that isn't in the past projected on so inquiry is um is you know it's again just meditating on a judgment and moment in time going into putting out the welcoming mat I think John is yeah and asking yourself is my anger or my sadness or my fear is my is my awareness of my anger angry and you can investigate you ask yourself and and look is my awareness of my fear actually afraid is my awareness of my sadness sad and then you can even investigate the my yeah who is it that's even caught in the that stream yeah and it's in some sense one way of thinking about observing one's thoughts in the mind and I'm sure you've all had this experience is when you get very quiet and very still and thoughts Bubble Up they're kind of like uh coming off seeding from the bottom of a pot of boiling water and they come to the top and they go poof all by themselves you don't have to do anything if you're truly in the knowing and the not knowing and the non- self-identifying with the thoughts they self- liberate in a certain way it's almost like touching a soap bubble your awareness touches the soap bubble and it goes puff and then you don't need to create a future or a past because that's thinking and when you are awareness in it's kind of nothing wrong with thinking except that it imprisons us constantly when we're not mindful of it but once we be friend thoughts then they're no longer you know they they we're bringing the children back into the family so to speak yeah and the next time they come they're they're meeting understanding so they're no longer a problem they uh you can see it's it's understood that it's it's like if we're fearing are we fearful is are we afraid of something in the world someone or something in the world or are we afraid of what we're thinking and believing about that something you know it's what I'm believing about that something that is the cause of my fear not that something the world is is is it's a beautiful place to live once you understand the Mind well a couple real quick things I'm hearing a slight Echo just so the people in who the sound who's doing the sound can uh address that um um but I'm wondering uh do you because I know you're both in relationships you both have children um and I know a lot of us get triggered in relationships and also with children uh so I'm curious do you know does that still happen for both of you and when that does happen what is your process around that um because I think a lot of people will be like cool I'm totally into the present moment I'm totally un noticing my mind and yet that damn ex or that damn whatever right how can my kid do this for the 100 time you know and so there's certain close things that I think grab us more than other things and I'm curious if you have particular experience uh and guidance around those very touchy delicate things which comes from any two people living together with different desire systems of course how can you not have uh challenges um but I'm curious in your own uh lives and to whatever extent you feel free uh how to work with triggers because I think that's something anybody have a tri get [Laughter] triggered um uh that's something that that as like I'm a spiritual person I'm so peaceful oh I just love you and yet uh you know this other thing comes out and so how do we make space for that so if if there's a problem in my family that's on me someone just said what living with Stephen is to live with the perfect man I can honestly say that what I'm thinking and believing about Stephen now that could use a little [Laughter] [Applause] work so so it can be very quiet in our house but once I once I have questioned what I'm thinking and believing about Stephen it's like there's Steven you know the real step but if I'm having a problem with Stephen it is something that happened or I'm afraid will happen and in the meantime he's just Steven so am I angry at the Steven imagine that I imagine from the past even if it's a nanc or am I angry with Stephen as I identify him in the future which of he's obviously [Laughter] innocent I mean either way either way he's innocent right one's gone one's not happening so if I'm angry at Stephen I'm nuts I'm angry at this Steven or this Steven how about this Steven right there not doing the dishes he's right there and just not doing the dishes and you see him you see the dishes and he's just right now that would be Steven sometimes but if if I believe that he should do the dishes and he's not doing them you know then there's Steven not doing them and then there's this this unkind husband that's that of the future and me having to do the dishes you see that image of me having to do the dishes okay because of him okay well he's just standing there with a smile on his face he loved [Laughter] dinner so I want to make sure I'm attacking the right person because they're going to get it when I find one so it's kind of like that and my children the same and you know these four questions I can I can honestly say I don't I don't live with my children saying is it true that doesn't [Laughter] happen so like Stephen you know I want the real deal I don't want to live with an imagined spouse or family I want to live with the the authentic the real deal so again I it's it really is the end of War it was the end of war in my home my home my home beautiful yeah Don do you have uh anything add or subtract from that well you know i' I've spent some time with with um with John and and Sten uhhuh and and we have visited and they move like that and they're dis it is so lovely just to spend a couple of days with how they are you know how they are it's just so with that story [Laughter] oh so good it was wonderful so good being together and um I think you're famous for saying if you want to fight with reality you're going to lose every time yeah yeah so argue with in family how many of you are part of family life in some way or other on a regular basis right so okay so then we're talking about sort of something that's very close to all of our hearts uh and for me it really comes down to uh uh what is actually so you know we are continually creating realities in our mind as you just pointed out that are not what's actually going on and attributing motives to people that are you know just another part of there some story that we're creating so uh and of course have you noticed that we often are like uh really wonderful with everybody else but in the family somehow it you know we we devolve to our times you might say your worst self so there's no better meditative environment for inquiry for investigation for meditation for mindfulness for heartfulness than the family because your children and your spouse unless your Katie are going to wind up pushing every single one of your buttons that you thought you've transcended well don't leave Katie out of it okay thank you okay I just want to say it um or do you're GNA get a chance to recognize that in this moment your I don't use the word spiritual but whatever you want to attribute your mindfulness practice your best self your you know your your so beautiful wise caring spiritual self is completely evaporated and you're a stark rving lunatic in that moment why because you're attached to a particular viewer outcome now the rotation in Consciousness is in that very moment just as you're saying in that very moment can I wake up to what's actually going on and stand in in an embodied way in understanding that this moment is a profound opport opportunity it is the curriculum the non dishes the issues around this or that or whatever it is or the just saying I didn't even sign up for this I never thought that it was going to be like this my image of how family life was going to be or this child or whatever it is that it was going to be like this but now it's like that wait a minute I don't I don't want this so who's that on it's on you okay that that's the curriculum of this moment that's the meditation practice not this in that moment so we can ask ourselves if you're struggling with thinking that it's a certain way and telling yourself a story about how it is and you'll get lots of evidence you can gather enormous amounts of evidence that it is that way 30 years of evidence all that evidence then you are basically constructing a prison where nothing can happen you don't see any way out in a certain way you be creating like a prison for others in the family so that there is no way out because you're in this mind prison that's sort of consensually established or that you're always fighting over so there's no better opportunity than than family life for letting the messiness actually become the teacher of the moment and then the turnaround or what I call this orthogonal rotation in Consciousness like nothing has to to change nothing's different in any moment except you are actually holding the space in a way that before you were caught in the thought stream and then the next moment is like surprise daddy's not doing that anymore in this moment or and then you find new degrees of freedom not in some conceptual enacting of embodied mindful ESS but right here before words underneath words in this moment and that's how we exercise the muscle and so to me I mean we're born We Grow Old we die some famous scientist thousands of years ago observed that old age sickness and death and then also the potential for wakefulness sometimes during that trajectory why not now and then and then the conditions are like never right for it if you notice like I'd really like to meditate only not now it's like now is so boring or my body hurts or I'm busy or my phone you wouldn't believe my email so but there's only now so when you can rotate in that way and hold then life becomes the not only the practice it becomes the teacher and every aspect of it whatever ever it is whether it's you know aging whether it's you dealing with parents whether it's with children whether it's with spouses or Partners or this kind of relationship or that kind of relationship it's the curriculum and the practice is not reading something in a book that you're to do now it's not about doing it's about being in Wise relationship and then you have to figure out what wise means in order to be free now I'll just say one more thing is that we're talking a lot about wakefulness and it's deeply related to Liberation to Freedom you use that kind of language and it's not about some other time it's about now it's not like 10 years from now if you meditate in the cave in the Himalayas you'll be any more enlightened I like to sometimes think and people project onto other people how enlightened they are I really feel that to a first approxim to a first approximation at least we should maybe abandon the thought of Enlightenment or some special state that if you meditate long enough in the right way then it will happen to you and then all those problems will be in the past only the your past will be littered with casualties including yourself follow that path but instead that it's it's this moment okay that this is the opportunity and when we hold fed in that way it's not like you there are enlightened people it's more like there are only enlightening moments and the more of them you string together the in some sense the the the more fluent the conversation the more fluent the embodiment the more fluent the dance you know what's important to me is not am I enlightened yeah it's not for you is not what I'm not am I enlightened yes not am I enlightened but am I kind that's it yep so and the curriculum life is the curriculum as you were saying but that curriculum I have come to see clearly that the universe is friendly is what the universe is friendly it's a match to our true nature and in that friendly Universe if I don't see it that way then I question what I'm believing and there it is again I'm getting through the smog the degree the the corrupted real script going on so in that in that understanding the only you know my emotions let me know that of that I'm off so the curriculum understanding the true nature of everything that it is not mean and it's not doing something terrible to us but in that in within that curriculum it's like I have I have I've come to I've come to know myself so of course that's what I would project onto the world so in this friendly Universe it leaves me just here now and that's true for all of us you're all here now we've all got that in common but in this in in this friendly Universe it's this curriculum it leaves me and I'll put it here but without the corrupt against my true nature that corrupted mind I can see I'm free to see what really is I'm re I'm excited without these stories going on I something opens my eyes in the morning and I'm excited I have I'm using the word I I'm excited because I don't know the future I'd get one if it were necessary it's absolutely absolutely unnecessary I'm excited so someone asked me before I came on it it it's like something about um I hope you do it well and I thought what is it I'm supposed to do well and then I remember also there is no curriculum the curriculum was in noticing that so I wouldn't come here with a curriculum I'm too excited to see what unfolds and in a friendly Universe you don't have to guess so anything that would cost me that friendly Universe would be a judgment about you or about me or anyone you know anyone or anything any situation that would cost me vision and in that excitement of don't know in that excitement of not needing to know this something something can unfold yeah and we don't know what it is but when we know it's true nature here it comes here comes the curriculum if there's one thing off it's me exciting it's like a one we have a we that's the danger of the personal pronoun so please hear what Katie just said on a lot of different levels if there's one thing wrong in the universe it's me don't take that personally yeah no it's the way I am seeing it's what I'm thinking and believing very good so we are getting a message from the friendly Universe please up and I don't have paper let's I want I want to resist wrap up the glass I want to resist I want to resist that reality um but I also know that there are uh There are rules to the universal uh game and mainly I really want to appreciate both of you and thank you for bringing your heart allowing us to unfold thank you all thank you

Channel: Wisdom 2.0 with Soren Gordhamer

Views: 105,183

Keywords: Byron Katie, Jon Kabat-Zinn, Soren Gordhamer, Mindfulness, Mindful, Meditation, self inquiry, self, inquiry, Wisdom 2.0, Wisdom 2, Wisdom

Id: E8CgNlQ1zYg

Length: 31min 25sec (1885 seconds)

Published: Fri Mar 04 2016