Mehdi Hasan — Win Every Argument - with Jen Psaki

coming out my name is Katie O'Donnell and I'm an event staffer here at politics and Pros bookstore soar where we now host in person and virtual events along with partnered and supported events trips and classes for a full list of everything offered please visit our website at politicspros.com just a few housekeeping items before we get started this evening please silence your cell phone so as to not disrupt the event and while we have lifted The Mask mandate here in the store you are encouraged to continue to wear a mask throughout the event and we have some at the front of the store for your convenience when we get to the portion of tonight's part of the conversation for audience questions we have placed a standing microphone here at the end of the aisle to your right please line up at one of these mics to ask your question that way we can hear your question in the recording of the event as well as for folks who are in the back of the store following the Q a we will have a signing up here at this table so if you have not already purchased a copy of the book we have many copies up behind the register at the front of the store to your back left once the event is complete we do ask that you fold up your chairs and lean them against something sturdy to help out our staff this evening so without further Ado it is my immense pleasure to welcome Maddie Hassan celebrating the release of win every argument the art of debating persuading and public speaking when every argument shows how anyone can communicate with confidence rise above the Tit for tats on social media and Triumph in a successful and productive debate in the real world whether you are making a presentation at work or debating current political issues with a friend mehdi Hassan will teach you how to sharpen your speaking skills and make the winning case Hassan is an award-winning British American journalist he will right and he is the host of The Many Hassan Show on MSNBC and NBC streaming Channel peacock Hassan is a former columnist and podcaster at the intercept and a former presenter on Al Jazeera English and his op-eds have also appeared in the New York Times And The Washington Post Hassan will be in conversation this evening with Jen saki who has been called one of the best press secretary I'm going to restart because this deserves its own one one of the best press secretaries ever a fitting accolade A fitting Accolade given that her tenure at the wait as the White House Press Secretary covered one of the most complex periods in modern presidential history saki has a show launching on MSNBC in two weeks inside with Jen saki at 12 pm on Sundays so please welcome me in joining to politics and pros this evening Maddie Hassan and Jen saki thank you what a great crap okay what a great crowd here this is amazing uh well first I want to start by just giving you a little heads up that when we get to the Q a portion you will all have the opportunity to debate Medi should you choose so people here who know him know there's some safe topics where he'll be on the other side he's a cheese lover if you hate cheese get on up there or if you are somebody who thinks coveted restrictions should have been thrown out a year ago he's also happy to debate you um so just a heads up for that I will note that while you're thinking about this I have a blurb on the back where I refer to many as one of the toughest interviews I did in the white house so just prepare yourself make some notes and you'll have your time so I want to start because everybody in here may own the book or maybe their potential book buyers and book buyers for their friends why do you need to know how to win a debate what what is the goal uh it's a great question thank you everyone for coming out I never realized how popular you were Jensen until until I saw this crowd and I was like I picked the right person to be in conversation with special thanks to everyone standing up I came to politics and prose last year from my friend Rabia chowdry's book lunch and I had to stand up the whole time and I was [Applause] into the book try and say oh I don't like arguing I did I did a mutual colleague Lawrence O'Donnell interviewed me on Monday night said I don't like argument a lot of people say we try and avoid them and I quote they're missing out I quote tail Carnegie in the book saying avoid arguments like you'd avoid rattlesnakes I think most people actually do enjoy arguments they enjoy winning them the problem is they don't always win them and if you lose an argument uh obviously you're not going to enjoy doing it so I I'm of the school of thought that believes that everyone wants to win an argument everyone at some point in their life needs to or has to win an argument and that everyone can be taught to win an argument and that's why I set out to write the book because I I believe very strongly that it's people say oh you know what you do or what I do we're born that way it's a natural no I don't I don't buy that at all I think what we do can be taught can be learned I've learned over the years people have been talking about stuff for thousands of years going back to Aristotle and I just wanted to come I wanted to combine what was already out there with my own experiences and say to people don't be afraid of this stuff anyone can do this and that's why I wrote the book I I love that you said that and you and I have talked about this that ever sometimes people think you just like we all came out with the womb ready to like debate people and there was a huge amount of preparation that goes into it it's almost the most important part you talk a lot about this in your book so I have a show launching in two weeks just again tell us a little bit about your preparation for winning an argument or an interview which sometimes is an argument on your show so the book is divided into three sections the first section is all about the fundamentals it's all the stuff I'm talking about the stuff you need to know about how to make emotional appeals what you need to do with facts what I call your receipts which you know all about um and what you need to do in terms of listening because listening is important also ad hominem arguments which I mount a controversial defense for give us a little more for people who haven't read the book what is an ad hominem argument is attacking the person not the argument when you're in high school debate and my daughter's in high school debate you are taught play the ball not the man and that's great in theory great on college campuses in real life we all know you have to play the man and the ball right that is just and I make the point because one of the main ways you win an argument is by asserting your credibility and diminishing your opponents Aristotle called the ethos one of the three pillars of an argument and therefore when people say well you should just just leave the person alone just address the argument that's nonsense and I give examples in the book if somebody has a history of lying you should point that out you don't trust that person that's an ad hominem argument if somebody is paid by the fossil fuel industry to deny climate change you should point that out that there's a conflict of interest interest there and so on so I in the first third of the book I point out all these kind of fundamentals in the middle third I I have fun it's the spicier section some trips don't skip to the middle the beginning is good too tricks techniques uh things to get you out of a hole things to kind of um corner or knock off your adversary off balance and then the third section is what I call what some people might call wbd it's kind of worthy but dull it's practice preparation how to build confidence with all that stuff oh that sounds like homework there's actually a chapter on homework but it's probably the most important third of the book because I couldn't do what I do and you wouldn't be able to do what you do unless you put in those hours and that effort because as I say this is not natural stuff this is stuff that requires preparation delivery and I tell the story of many people in the book who we consider today to be great orators who didn't start out that way whether it was Winston Churchill uh whether it was I talk about demosthenese those of you who study the Asian period democities was the greatest orator of ancient Greece he's considered by some to be the father of rhetoric demosthenese could not give a speech in his twenties he embarrassed himself in public in court he had a stutter and a stammer he was short of breath he built himself an underground Batman style cave which he retreated into he even shaved off half his head so he would be too embarrassed to come out of the cave so he forced himself to stay down there standing in front of a mirror running back and forth with pebbles in his mouth to get past his stammer until he thought he was good enough to go out and take people on again and today he's considered one of the great fathers of rhetoric so I say if he can do it if Churchill can do it if MLK and where does Churchill where did Churchill practice there's a story about his valet Norman who used to hear Churchill murmuring in the bathroom in the tub and he would run and say Sir what can I get you and he would say Norman I'm not talking to you I'm addressing the House of Commons Churchill would practice his speeches in the tub because Churchill I tell the story in the book when he was a younger MP tried to give a speech in the comments lost his place went red-faced I'm sure many of us have been there just couldn't remember what was the next thing they wanted to say and he got if you watch the House of Commons is not like the House of Representatives it's much more Furious prime minister's question spicier a little spicier belligerent and he got he got heckled down he was so embarrassed he said that will never happen to me again so he spent the next 20 30 years becoming the guy we now remember fight them on the beaches stand up to the Nazis that didn't come naturally to him so give us a little sense of each stage so you have a big interview coming up this Sunday maybe you do I don't know what it is you can tell us all here uh what are you doing to prepare for that starting tomorrow so the number one thing I do when I have an interview guest and I and I encourage and this doesn't just apply to interviews this applies to you have a big meeting in the boardroom tomorrow you have a big case in court if you're a lawyer you have a big presentation in high school I try and find out every it sounds obvious I know it sounds like the department of bleeding obvious try and find out everything there is you could possibly find out about the issue the other person every argument I talk about in the book a technique called steel Manning we always talk about straw Manning using the weakest possible argument against your opponent misrepresenting your opponent's argument in a weak way don't do that I mean you could do that during a debate to mock them but when you're preparing for a debate Steel Man the argument come up with the strongest possible argument on the other side that you're going to come up against I always try and pride myself in knowing the other side's argument better than they do if you can know the other person's arguing better than they do then they've got really nowhere else to go and there's no surprises you don't want to be surprised in a live event on live TV in the middle of a boardroom presentation so people again take the stuff for granted but it requires a lot of time I talk about in the book about role playing when I was at Al Jazeera English when we spent a long time on interviews longer than we have in cable news as you'll discover in a couple of weeks um we would actually sit and role play so you know we had the we had the former Israeli foreign minister on the show Danny eilon I had a producer basically become Danny Ireland for a week and she would come into meetings and she would be Danny Ireland and I would treat her as Danny Ireland and she would basically her job was to go through all of his previous interviews and know what his answers are to various questions it was almost like a chart if he says this I'll say this if he says this I'll go there so that you're complete the whole thing is mapped out before people think oh look at me just winged how did he pull that I wish I could take credit and say I just pulled it out from my memory no it's all planned out like I'm calling her Danny even after the show's over because I got so into it but you know the role playing um brainstorming uh steel Manning I talk about all these techniques in but to get ready for that big event do the homework put in the time because it really annoys me as someone who does this for a living that people go out there and think well you know if I'm gonna operate on a patient or if I'm gonna do somebody's tax plans I'm an encounter I'm going to do all the work for I'm going to go to the posturist universities I'm going to put get the best degrees public speaking oh yeah I can just do that in half an hour no put the same amount of effort in it's just as hard if not harder so you've done all the prep work which is the whole point you get to the interview what's it like in the moment when you know you've prepared for this moment and the person says something and you're like I have the receipt in my back pocket and I'm so excited about this moment or describe it for me but I but I love the way you're describing it as if you don't know that moment because I'm pretty sure I saw you do that in the White House briefing room with the foxes Pete Ducey a fair few times um the great the great nepo baby of the White House Press Corps um I saw the sake bombs um but I enjoyed doing many many bombs on online I do enjoy doing them I do I talk about it in the book I'm not going to pretend this book I'll be honest with there's no false modesty in this book I'm sorry to say to you if you're gonna buy this but I make it very clear in the book like there's a hundred books in the store I'm sure that will teach you how to negotiate and give a speech and you know do a presentation I'm not doing that I'm teaching you how to win and I'm very ruthless about that and I'm very open about that um and I say in the book I get a lot of yeah there is a high there is a God adrenaline when I'm interviewing John Bolton and John Bolton says and I say to John Bolton because I did the homework I went back and found his older speeches I find him giving a speech which is a kind of not so Iranian cult opposition group which people think is good because it's against the Iranian government so we should support that group but they're nuts and he's gone and given speeches for Money Paid speeches so I asked him no one ever asked him about this so I thought okay let's ask you about this so I asked him and John Bolton we're having the interview and I say what about the MEK you you claim to be for Iranian freedom but is it because they pay you 10 grand a speech or whatever it is how dare you suggest that I do that no one buys John Bolton but they did pay you for your speeches when they were prescribed terrorist organization he said no no Hillary Clinton I'm sure you love she delisted them I'm like yeah but you gave a speech to them before they were delicited in Paris in 2000 whatever it was I have the date I have the YouTube I went and watched it we transcribed it you said this interview would be 15 minutes sir and I'm like actually no I've got a clock in front of me we're not at that time and that is a great moment to know that John Bolton who jumped on his you know is nobody's fault what do you think about John smart guys been debating since the Yale political union is actually very good at interviews most interviews don't get the better that's a great moment to go okay I have the receipt he thinks he's out of here but he's not out of here so those moments are great moments when you talk about in the book you know you you know gotcha questions as a former press but I'm sure you've accused others of using gotcha questions it's a classic move from politicians oh that's a gotcha question nothing wrong with a gotcha question that's good I'm trying to get you I'm holding you to account right I love the way I love the way people run away yeah I'm trying to get you I make no apologies for that right holding someone to catching them out fine if you're inconsistent if you're dishonest I'm going to call you out General Michael Flynn before he went kind of full q anon-esque and had the shortest National Security advisor career in American history he came on my show he was still a trump proxy at that time in the 2016 race and we had discovered that during the Obama Administration when were you in the Obama especially till the end so in the end of the Obama he was the head of the DIA defense into perhaps Barack Obama's worst decision many decisions but he made Michael Flynn head of the defense intelligence agency Philip went in front of Congress and we found a quote from a transcript where he talked about how Iran's nuclear program wasn't a threat or something such formulation so I decided to read those words out and I talk about it in the book a way to kind of disarm your opponent is present them with their own words without telling them they're their words people think that's below the belt why is it below the belt it's your word it's not my job to remember today your words it's your job so we read out the quote I said well you keep he spent the whole showing Iran Iran Iran we must but you know hawkish I said do you agree with people who say that Iran's nuclear program is not no I don't agree with that I don't agree with that at all those are your words that Mo that was a moment yeah some people they go cheer up football games that's me that's my moment yes yes that's my moment I say the receipt so they have a chapter on the chapter three of the book is all about the receipt so always make sure you have your receipts don't get into any debate argument discussion where you are not armed with and sometimes physical receipts the whole phrase receipts Whitney Houston's line about receipts comes from actually wanting to see physical reasons sometimes it's great to have a document you've done that again yeah in the briefing room you've pulled out I've got it here I had this in my pocket I just accidentally just accidentally so one of the things you talk about in the book which really stuck with me is just this how where do you balance between facts and charts and heart and emotion I mean in Democrats God bless all of them in the umbrella love a good chart and love data I mean I don't know if you all remember the bending the cost curve stage of the Affordable Care Act that was the argument I was in the White House at the time I still don't know what that means um did you did you stay awake during the meetings um but you know there is a balance right because you want to be fact-based and have the receipts but you also want to be flexible and agile so what's that balance or how do you talk how do you how would you define that so the balance is you need facts I'm not kellyanne Conway I'm not here to tell you that we're in a post-fact alternative fact World in fact in fact one of the reasons I wrote the book is because we might come to this is like there are so many people gaslighting us these days and bsing us and have ruined the art of the debate just by kind of beating the crap out of us with nonsense that you can't even have a good faith argument anymore but in terms of the people who do want to have a good faith disagreement I say look facts are really important you need to have a solid substantive backing to what you're saying but that is not what's going to win you there nobody's ever convinced with a chart or and Democrats bless them the labor party in the UK where I'm from it's the same thing very technocratic approach if I can do one more Pew poll data point I will convince this voter if I can you know if I had just one more Fact one more statistic and you know Hillary Clinton blessed our heart in 2016. you know she's up against Donald Trump Donald Trump understands whatever you think about Donald Trump he understands how do Rouse people emotionally with all the worst emotions but he knows how to arouse people emotionally build the wall lock her up ban Muslims we remember those lines today because they're to the point and they Rouse something in you either kind of disliking or like Hillary Clinton has like what a 17-point child care plan I'm sure it was great I'm sure it would have improved child care across America but nobody was going to vote on that basis no one was paying attention sadly I wish we lived in the world where the person with the 17 point child care plan wins but that's not the world we're living again I say in the book living the world as it is not the kind of abstract High School College debate uh assistant that's great for heist if you're a high school college to better grade but in the real world it's not how it works you have to have an emotional appeal you have to be able to tell stories engage people with passion if it's going to be heart versus head the heart is going to beat the head nine times out of ten and again goes back to Aristotle Aristotle talks about logos reason he talks about ethos your personal credibility but he talks about pathos he talks about the need to connect with people's hearts the human brain is not hardwired to receive a bunch of Statistics that's not how you convince your spouse or your kids to get anything done you make an emotional appeal but when we get into public policy and politics sometimes we just say I think Democrats in particular because I don't know liberal arts education law degrees no idea but it's this idea of we're like yeah National we will rationally defeat you in this Socratic method and unfortunately that's not how Americans are or most people around the world are they want to be inspired enthused they want to see righteous anger I talk in the book about Michael Dukakis as a kind of case study in you know you remember 1988 yeah there's a bunch of good debate will you talk about them in the book a bunch of good debate examples where they prepped for weeks probably and they just sort of yeah I mean it's the moment I give a lot of examples of the book not just from my own career but of you know American presidential debates ancient Greece good practice and bad practice and bad practice 1988 Michael Dukakis is up against George Bush Senior the debate begins in LA but not sure CNN first question because Michael dougarkus is anti the death penalty is getting hit hard as being soft on crime those of you old enough to remember I won't see which ones of you I think are old enough to remember and Dukakis is asked what would you do if Kitty Dukakis his wife was raped and murdered would you still not support the death penalty Dukakis gives a three-minute answer like I transcribe it in the book if you have the audio book you can listen to the clip three minutes away talks about Massachusetts crime rates he talks about DEA law enforcement he talks about planning a drug Summit for the southern hemisphere he talks about everything except the fact that the guy just said his wife might have been brutally murdered people want to hear from their commander-in-chief what is his reaction his gut reaction to somebody saying his wife has been brutally murdered and he didn't do it he was cold he was emotionless he was flat and he absolutely got destroyed his own campaign manager said I knew we had lost that night and that is a problem the Democrats do that far too often and interestingly Hillary Clinton someone else who was accused of being cold Etc some some of that was misogynistic some of that was true but you'll remember that she beat Barack Obama in New Hampshire shortly after what after kind of crying and people saying wow she engaged with voters at I think it was a restaurant and I don't think that was a coincidence I don't think it's a coincidence sort of the six Democrats in presidential elections in the 21st century the three who lost were Al Gore John Kerry and Hillary Clinton I don't think that's a coincidence all great people smart people not the most inspiring of orators and then you have Barack Obama in a different league and Joe Biden who bless him is not the greatest of orators but he's authentic people think when he speaks he's saying what he means he's not talking off talking points or a teleprompter so I think I do think I know correlation is not causation but I do think that is that there is a link there when it comes to the emotional appeal so how do you think the the art of winning an argument or a debate has changed since Trump came on the political scene it's awful I mean I say this is someone who loves doing this who enjoys having people on my show I people think oh you just want you're about to launch a show right you want to have a bunch of interesting eclectic diverse guests that's what we want to do I love having different voices I hate soggy consensus having discussion where everyone agrees right that's not how I was raised I talk about it in the book I come from a very disputatious household it explains a lot I know so I love having people who are going to push back against me disagree with me and then have that good faith I can't really do that anymore because I want to have conservatives on the show The only conservatives you're going to get are kind of the never trumpers that you see on MSNBC already you're not because I have a hygiene role that I don't want to have election denies on the show I don't have climate change deniers on the show because I'm up for arguing but I'm not going to argue with people who don't accept reality that's the point there's no point arguing in that sense so but it limits me right I'm limited and I don't know how long I can stick to that rule as we approach 2024 because if the entire modern Republican party is now election deniers does that mean we say we have no one from that party on the show that's a hard choice to make as a journalist in a two-party system it's a real dilemma which we struggle with my team and I every day okay but you know they have ruined to go back to your question these people a lot of these people come on TV and they try and steamroll you and I do a chapter in the book on it it's called beware the Gish galloper and I talk about this technique called the Gish Gallop if you can call it a technique and it comes from an evolution it's called Dwayne Gish sorry evil creationist called Dwayne Gish who used to debate evolutionists I don't know if any of you have been on YouTube and watched kind of the number of debates are out there on Evolution fact or fiction between a creationist and an evolution about it and the scientist always loses because the scientist turns up and does hey I've got one more statistic I have a peer-reviewed study and uh and the other person is is inspiring and funny and telling anecdotes and grish was a master of this he was very engaging very funny and he would absolutely bombard whoever he was up against Relentless chain of cherry pick statistics quotes out of context misrepresented studies but he would throw so many in such a fast space of time that the scientists couldn't respond to all of them and the neutral third party in the audience might say wow I mean the science is not responding to all that maybe there's some truth in what he's saying and that's the whole point of that technique and Donald Trump has mastered the gishka maybe knowingly or unknowingly has mastered idea that you get overwhelmed with BS Steve Bandon famously said our opponents are not the media and not the Democrats they're the media and the way to deal with the media is to flood the Zone with and that is what they've done they've flooded it with excrement because for a while it was let's fact check everything he said there was a debate about whether we should there was he was going to be shown whether his tweets should be stoned but you can't fact check that's the problem you see Daniel Daniel Dale who we both know who's now the CNN fact Checker probably the best fact check in America like there's a moment in 2020 when he comes on Don Lemon Sean I talk about it in the book and he just runs out of breath because he does two minutes of it I mean this was false and this was false and this was false but you can't do that every day and if you remember the first presidential debate in 2020 which I'm sure you do Biden versus Trump Chris Wallace who's a pretty good interviewer can't control Donald Trump Donald Trump I talked about in the book he goes through two minutes of just nonsensical claims one after another he tells a lie every nine seconds in that two minute period there's no scenario in which Joe Biden Chris Wallace the entire White House Press Corps could come on stage I would not be able to say let's go through you just don't have the time so I talk about that in the book what do you do when you have these people like Giuliani and kellyanne Conway and Donald Trump and others and the original Dwayne Gish who's passed away pushing this just overwhelming you uh with nonsense I'm sure you've across that in daily life you've had people just completely like where do I begin with all the nonsense I just heard so I talk about in the book there's a three-part strategy and I love the number three everything is in three I have a chapter on why you should always do everything in threes I do everything in threes uh to my friends and Family's great frustration three reasons three ways you can stop the Gish caliper number one you pick your battles Jen you don't try and rebut everything that's a Fool's errand you pick the weakest dumbest most ridiculous claim and you zero in on that and you mock the hell out of that so the audience says wow that's a load of nonsense surely the rest of those arguments are probably nonsense as well number two you don't um you don't budge in our in our in our industry and I could say our industry you're in too many interviewers and I've said this openly move on too quickly and it's always their fault we live in a very time poor environment you're gonna you're gonna have to go to break very soon you know there's always an ad break coming up it's a lot of you know not enough time on cable TV and we move on and the Gish galloper the bullshitter takes advantage of that because they know that they can say 10 nonsensical things and you either will about one of them or you won't you'll just move on to your next question because your producer's like come on keep keep the interview moving my position is don't budge less is more don't do 20 questions do two but make sure they answer those two so when I interviewed Steve Rogers in 2018 who was a trump advisor sadly not Captain America uh for my original English show sadly sadly as a Marvel fan it could still happen I decided my team and I decided that we're going to focus on one Trump claim which was at the time he was saying U.S steel is announced six still new steel mills and they had an unsticks do not at all they put out a statement saying we haven't announced it but Trump knew no one's gonna ask him No One's Gonna Factor he's already moved on to the next lie so I said to his proxy Trump didn't announce six steel new rules that's that's false that's a lie oh no no what he meant to say was you know steel is doing really well I said yeah but that's not what he said he said it's a very specific number he said six steel mills where are they still us still says there aren't any oh well manufacturing's doing so and he just kept Dodge and I wouldn't move on and I kept saying but six where are the six Steelers he said six he's lying isn't he at one point Steve Rogers says to me you can watch the Clippers by pin tweet it's a bit of fun he says just move on never done because he started producing me just say John Bolton style I said no I'm not going to move on because and this is the third point this is what I said I said because you know it's a lie and that's what you're doing here the third point is call it out when someone is trying to BS you forget about all the other arguments in the book and just say you know what this isn't a good faith argument This is BS right call out the strategy this is a Gish Gallop this is nonsense you're trying to flood don't say gesh Gallop don't say gush unless you've read the book and you're talking to someone else who's read the book which I'm sure you have unless we divide up after them and we will argue but pointing out because and the Rand Corporation makes another analogy Rand Corporation talks about Putin he's a master of this also if you saw his recent speech where he rambled through everything from Ukraine to Communism to transgender rights Ron Corporation says when the Russian firehose of falsehood is on the fire hose of falsehood put raincoats on the people it's aimed at well your job is if somebody is bsing everyone it's to protect the audience you want to tell them you want to make them aware of what's going on so that is I mean look it's not easy to go up against but there's a reason why only people like Jonathan Swann have done a good job of actually interviewing Trump and I talk about Swan's interview but it's hard and there's no Silver Bullet but I give it kind of my attempt at a strategy for how to take on the BSA so we've talked a lot about kind of taking on the BSR and kind of you know dismantling their arguments but part of winning an argument as you talk about in here is also presenting something good or positive or something that people can also bite their teeth into this is sometimes a mistake made in politics what's the balance do you think is for people on that uh in terms of what you what positive negative or yeah I mean how much is it taking apart your opponent versus presenting an alternative agree so again I would say context matters hugely so it depends where you are are you in a formal debate in a University Auditorium are you are you the evolutionist versus the creationist are you on cable news for a five minute hit are you in a courtroom trying to persuade a jury are you on the are you in a presidential debate speaking to the audience at home it all I think you have to vary I took a lot in the book about flexibility people kind of become very rigid there is no one style no right answer you have to decide I even talk about in the book you have to vary your volume based on if I was talking to a very if it was just you me and two other people in a room we would be having a very different conversation to this conversation if we're on TV right now we might be having a different tone so your tone your volume your delivery all of that matters and yes substance matters too you need to know who your audience is is it an audience who are kind of hostile to you then you need to tailor your message in that in in that case you need to say stuff that might appeal to them that might surprise them because they come come with a kind of wow Maddie has I don't like him that msnb what are you going to say to try and kind of catch them off guard and pleasantly surprise them if it's an audience of everyone you agree with do you want to challenge their priors do you want to upset the conventional wisdom and say something provocative that makes them think so it really depends where you are but yes to take your wider point I talk about in the book especially in the Final Chapter about the grand finale is you have to leave people with something substantive that they can take away and it doesn't have again it doesn't have to be a fact or figure it can be a feeling right there's a famous phrase in debating circles that people won't remember what you said but they'll remember how you made them feel and that is so important sometimes you watch people give a delivery an argument on TV a speech whatever it is and it kind of dribbles off at the end I'm done thank you very much for your time don't do that that's Madness this is your moment that the end is the moment really really send them away with Food For Thought inspired maybe a call to Arms what should you be doing after this so I definitely believe in more positive than negative get people inspired when I talk about emotion Trump does all the negative emotions he inspires people with kind of loathing of foreigners and anger and paranoia yeah but there's light Inspire them with light with hope I'm all for that but obviously if it's some guy or some person who's you know some bad faith person or some person who's trying to kind of trick people yeah you know use the spicy sections yeah the space in the middle the spicy metal so I know your wife is here I've never met her okay we're gonna call her out now what you write in your book about how she actually wins Arguments for those of you who don't know Maddie you can see how he would win arguments here because I was like I've been up since four in the morning I need a cup of coffee just to make sure I can keep up with many so but your wife wins arguments so how does she win arguments what's her tactics is well first of all she's much smarter than me so brain power intellect matters but I'll say one thing here let me let me use my wife's example to make a wider point a lot of people been snarking about the title of the book right preet last night in New York made this point about should you win a lot of people on Twitter and other places like fill us off should you win every argument isn't that bad who said yes you're my friend yeah um bad you know debating is about learning and you know interactions and you should you should be getting stuff back great I'm at the point of the book I'm not telling you to go out and necessarily win every argument I'm saying here's how you can win every argument should you choose to just as if I'd written a book called Drive every car I'm not telling you to go out buy every car in the world and drive I'm saying here's how you could if you wanted to so the example I'll give my wife is maybe you might be able to meet your spouse in an argument I'm saying just don't maybe just avoid it that's a little bit like he's saying he throws the game sometimes I'm not sure about that but to quote a famous White House Press sector I couldn't possibly come and I'll come back I'll come back I'll come back so we're gonna get to your questions in a moment and as the per the instructions at the beginning if you would like to ask a question if you'd like to debate if you hate cheese if you hate covid restrictions or anything else uh you can just line up right here Marvel movies Joe Biden run for office again we get Jen's take yes everyone's too old um so I don't think that I'm just making fun of it okay um you can line up at this um at don't be shy but line up here and we'll and Maddie's gonna take your questions um but as you're doing that I have a little rapid fire so line up line up people okay who's the best debater today do you mean in politics what take it wherever you want to take it Medi it's your book so because it's my book I'm gonna plug the book in the book I talk about Elizabeth Warren and how she turned up to Las Vegas and I'll say this about Elizabeth Warren whatever you think about Warren you might think she's two left you might think you don't like whatever it is one thing I'm hoping we can all in this room agree that no matter what she does between now and the day she meets her maker is that she saved the world from Michael Bloomberg in one 60 seconds in one she destroyed Michael Bloomberg's ridiculous presidential candidacy in 59 seconds I talk about it in the book she turns Up in Vegas first answer she goes for a billionaire who calls women pigs no I'm not talking about Trump it's genius her team were hugging chairs in the green room and jumping up and down Wikipedia that night changed Bloomberg's page to say killed on stage in Las Vegas by Elizabeth Warren so I would say as politicians go Warren who's been who's a high school debate champion and went to university on a debate scholarship is certainly up there you know what else she did I mean she had lots of plans maybe more than Hillary Clinton I don't know they could have a plan off or something but they messaged she has a plan for that which you would just meet people at events and I went to a bunch of the early States and people would be like whimper because she has a plan for everything and it's like have you read the plans no but she has a plan for all of it I'm like that's amazing which is funny because four years later nearly or three years later will Summers of The Daily Beast has a book out this week called the plan it's all about Q Anon because Q Anon people obsessed with the plan so the plan has unfortunately taken a whole different meaning we got to take it back um okay who would you love to debate news maybe could be someone on your show could be a debate at an event someone I've always wanted to interview and really Grill and go at it back and forth because I both loathe them and respect them as intellectually oh I'm intrigued I'm intrigued is uh Tony Blair no it's this month is the 20th anniversary of the Iraq invasion which Blair and Bush happily gave the world and George Bush I always think George Bush would be a kind of pointless interview I mean no disrespect but like shooting shooting fish in a barrel Tony Blair Tony Blair is a very smart guy and I've watched him be interviewed on Iraq for two decades and no one really lands a blow he always he's the great Teflon Tony always slips out of it always well my intentions were good well the intelligence and I would love to kind of go back and forth with him with him nowhere else to go on the Iraq invasion on the lies that were told on the lives that were lost and hold that guy to account because no one's really held him to account for 20 years I mean I'd watch that Tony Blair if you're watching C-SPAN if you're on Twitter you're in we're a politics and Pros if you're in Washington we're ready to do it right here um what is the issue where public opinion is most starkly different from your point of view oh that's a good question because on most issues I have the people no um I guess right now A contentious one is I support defunding police brutality in this country and unfortunately the polls of the American public are not there yet um and it's a tough choice and people in your party as you know in the Democratic Party in the administration you're part of run away from this argument uh because they don't they just don't think that you should defund the police but or or they do but they don't want to say it because it's political suicide they think um or they're worried about crime in their communities go on hold on or I didn't say anything about crime I said defunding police brutality which surely you agree with well defunding police departments well then you changed the meaning of this term which is the whole point of the book you're against no no no no no no I'm not a Gish caliber because I'm not overwhelming with I'm reframing the debate which is the chapter on Judo moves which is when you're making a case Define it on your terms liberals and leftists for far too long fight arguments on the terrain of conservatives and I think that's mad Define it as you want for example when I talk about I say in the book when I talk about making a case the police argument is a very hard argument to win but don't talk about it in terms of you know police crime rates police levels Etc talk about it in purely emotional terms tell me which American supports funding the beating of Tyree Nichols find me an American says yes I support funding that that's my argument show me that person okay all right I think we're ready for some questions go ahead okay um I would like to know which debate you lost oh and why and to who um so we'll stay away from personal household debates um so I so I um I did a debate um I did a debate on um those couples I'm just gonna think which one's most more interesting one I'm thinking um well a couple of things one is I did a I did a debate with a climate change denier years ago I would never have climate change on my show now but then I was cocky 10 years ago I could do a climate change today and it was just pure scallop it was a disaster like it was just nonsense one after another it's conspiracy theories you know you question this that's part of the conspiracy you excite this study well they're all in on it uh it didn't go anywhere and I was embarrassed that I'd used up an hour of air time on my show to platform a conspiracy theory so that's the kind of ones I would say avoid and if I wrote another book one chapter not in this book is when to walk away from an argument when not to have the argument but an actual proper debate that I lost I did a debate for Intelligence Squared which is a debating organization in the UK and the US on Angela Merkel years ago uh during the height of the Euro crisis when Greece was really suffering and it was about how is Angela Merkel destroying Europe and I was making the case that she was and it was an intelligent squared and it's another reminder that you have to know your audience I Ted up at this debate and I'm pushing kind of you know Paul Krugman and Lefty themes about Keynesian spending and whites austerities destroying Europe the entire crowd have paid 70 pounds for a ticket or whatever it is even the Greeks in the crowd are kind of like Greek shipping tycoons well I guess we need to destroy our country um and I was like this is not going anywhere like from half of 20 minutes we're not winning 20 minutes in I was like this audience maybe I could win this debate somewhere else but in this Hall tonight with these people I got no chance so it is very important the first the very first chapter of the book is called know your audience like it is nothing is more important than to understand who your audience are what they want to get out of something what you can offer that audience how you can identify with them because if you nail that everything else is easy go tip number one you can step skip the first chapter just kidding uh go ahead all right uh which politician do you uh appreciate the most as far as their debating skills um so I mentioned Elizabeth Warren already I mentioned Tony Blair already um let's pick someone else I actually think um so if you think debating skills interesting you didn't say interviewing sales I would say Alexandra ocasio-cortez if you watch her on the house floor separate to TV interviews if you've seen some of her performance on the house floor it is you know to use the the kids memes she does bring the fire um it is really really passionate and I love passion I like the thing I hate most about politicians on on the liberal left is when they are technocratic and bureaucratic and managerial um and she if you've seen some of her recent speeches including her speech if you want to YouTube it her speech on the day Republicans voted to remove ilhan Omar from the Foreign Affairs committee was a stunning piece of oratory and she it was it was it you watch it and you feel something that for me is how you as I say that's the emotional appeal that's going to be any kind of technical argument well you didn't remove Matt Gates or you didn't know that what she came up with in terms of bigotry and standing together with marginalized communities was a very powerful and kind of got your skin on edge yeah good one you've given everyone homework it's good it's good okay go ahead yeah watching YouTube what I do in my space hey midi so first of all I've been a fan of yours for a while so it's it's an honor for me to be thank you very much and so uh so one pattern I've noticed across your career is uh you on several occasions you interviewed Noam Chomsky who's a legendary professor and you've on multiple occasions you references most famous book manufacturing consent on how the media likes to manufacture consent for uninformed American public to get them to you know vote for candidates who are I guess only serve the interest of the elite so across your career you know your records have been very clear your uh your staunch critic of Israel You're a staunch critic of uh this question is going I'm guessing I'm guessing in my head okay I'll go real quick I'll make a way he's done your son's critic of Saudi Arabia and human rights violation you can't you criticize U.S military camps it's like the best positions in Afghanistan Iraq Libya and others so my question for you is how does and how does an anti-establishment figure like you uh work for a corporate establishment media such as MSNBC so let me so so let me ask you this why are you walking away do you know that's a weird was that a question or a speech no it was a question because but normally when you ask a question you wait till the answer so and actually okay let's do it this way let me ask you back how do I work for them you tell me how do I work for them well you're you're a broadcaster on on NBC which is owned by Comcast is one of the largest telecommunications but of all the issues you just mentioned which ones have I stopped talking about since I went to work for MSNBC wait can you repeat the question happily you I'm good at repeating questions um you listed a bunch of issues that you said I've done over my career and then you said and now you work for MSNBC I'm saying of all the issues you mentioned Israel Saudi Arabia U.S militarism uh Libya Etc which ones have I stopped talking about or stopped railing against since I joined MSNBC in August of 2020. um no well for example last year when the issue between Israel and Gaza was happening you had one of the I think as a deputy Ambassador or something like that yeah Israel and you've had him on and he just couldn't shut up about Hamas and stuff like that so that very clearly says you know you're you know and at the end of the end of the uh the debate you asked him do you support a two-state solution he didn't really give you a direct answer on that well that's an example so that's a good example right yeah yeah good I love that there you go ending in agreement so my position is I have the similar I have the same criticism with the corporate media I've always had I have the opportunity to work for corporate media uh it's a great blessing and opportunity because I get to address millions of people uh on platforms that I normally wouldn't have access to uh for example I was on air in prime time in MSNBC doing all in the week that Joe Biden uh made one of his best decisions but most criticized decisions was to end the war in Afghanistan uh in August 2021 and I was able to get more Afghan voices on TV that week than probably any cable show or any cable channel has ever done in the space of five days so for me I have all my criticisms I know about all the constraints um but my position is hey as long as they let me do what I'm doing I'll keep doing it and when they stop letting me do what I do I'll stop doing it I hope that's all right thank you for your questions okay [Applause] hi um so you mentioned the Jonathan Swan interview which brought back lots of great memories for me that's another piece of homework it's very good please everyone should look that up in the audiobook so um I think that's a really great example of someone accusing the tactics that you mentioned to really turn the tables on a Gish scalper yes Gish caliper um so um so well so that if I remember correctly a former president Trump was actually the one holding up the graphs yes right he was pulling out his folders and holding up graphs and some great memes came out of that as well what learnings can uh modern journalists and hosts take away from that interview when they are choosing to interview um more these Gish calipers and election deniers and so on and so forth it's a great question and I actually use Jonathan's intervention there's a good friend of mine we've talked about that interview many times I used that interview who's seen the Jonathan Swan Donald Trump interview yeah good A lot of people have seen it with the famous Jonathan you've at least seen the memes the memes everyone's seen the memes and he won an Emmy for it which he deserved um he did the three-part process which I mentioned he he picked his battle he said let's talk about death numbers let's talk about the statistics uh case fatalities he didn't budge when Trump brought out the grass Trump's like look at South Korea and most interviews would be like screw South Korea I've got another question Jonathan goes okay let's look at South Korea and now Trump thinking South Korea what do I do because normally Trump's used to like next Trump doesn't know South Korea is who's the president of South Korea um by the way why do interviewers why did interviewers never ask Trump just fact questions people always say what would you ask Trump I always think just fat questions Mr President what does NATO stand for what is the who I mean when are you heading for wakanda briefing room Decay if I do but but Swan Swan Swan did that he he's he he he picked his battle he didn't budge when Trump threw the papers at him and he called it out he said look this is not our numbers are bad we have much worse statistics is what you're doing you're just trying to Railroad me and what's interesting is people did learn from the swan interview but the problem was the swan interview was 2020 it was at the end of the Trump presidency it wasn't until the very end that a lot of interviews started going wising up to Trump tactics standing up to him using words like the L word liar r word racist which too many journalists ran away from from the first three years of presidency and I know my good friend Ali is here somewhere in the crowd as well and he's made this point that like a lot of us there were a bunch of us for years saying hey Trump's kind of fascist and racist and dishonest I don't know you can't say stuff like that he's depressed that's extreme you've got Trump derangement syndrome then now it's like oh January 6th we all agree with that so some of us were saying this stuff for a long time Jonathan Swan did that great interview Chris Wallace also did a great interview Trump in in 2020 but it was all at the very end now the big question is what happens now in 2024 do you still platform him it's a good question and I think journalists have to think long and hard how they're going to platform him how are the interviews going to happen do you do them live please God no at least pre-take them so you can somehow interject with facts and things Jonathan Carl of ABC did a very good interview with um uh Arizona election dinner why am I forgetting her name Carrie Lake Carrie how can you forget Carrie Lake she's still she's still protesting the election um he didn't and he did a pre-tape for a Sunday show and he cut away every time she said some nonsense the voice of God Narita came that's not true actually and I was great I think we should do more of that with people who just are serial Fabricators yeah lots of tips there okay who's next I'm heady um I've always wanted to ask you this question because I think any politician who agrees to come on your show is out of their minds and because you are you are terrifying and so you must have amazing producers that can convince people who know they're going to be destroyed to come on yes um okay but so my question is my question is are there people who like you have you are not not been able to get because they're so scared to be interviewed by you name some names yes but I'm not going to tell you their names because we're still trying to get them off he's so scared of me he won't come on that's not really going to work in the persuasion angle um but no look I have great producers um last night in New York my MSNBC team came out uh it was really fun to talk they were watching me and I was giving them the credit they deserve because they make me look good with all their research and prep and I think another friend of mine is here Lucas raticello is there at the back he's a Al Jazeera English producer who I worked with for years he knows a lot of those Al Jazeera guys they got their ears chewed off by guests like there's a guy called Ryan Coles who I mentioned in the book who used to be his now in London he was the guest broker and his job was to walk people out of the studio to the street so awkward a little guy it was so open like Julia Gillard the former Australian prime minister comes on the show she comes on to promote some Initiative for girls in Africa that she's promoting former and I say to the team I want to ask my immigration okay could you just ask one immigration request at the end my one question the end was how does she sleep at night with blood on her hands from all the boats that have drowned because of her policies and we're sitting opposite each other it's me her a cameraman no one else in the room and the interview's over thank you for joining me how long are you in town for when are you in DC tell she's just looking I'm like she wants to kill me Ryan comes in and has to do the Long Walk of Shame with her team who are all giving him dirty looks Vitali Klitschko I talk about the Victoria Stone story he came on the show and you know Vitali Klitschko current mayor of Kiev valiantly defending a city against Russian aggressors former heavyweight champion of the world six foot ten uh has arms you know the size of my entire body and he was mayor of Kiev and he comes on the show and I we persuaded him to come it's very hard to get him on the show we're still trying to get him on actually recently and he doesn't want to come back on the show for some reason he came asked him he said to me my English good you speak slowly sorry I can only do Ivan Drago I can't do I can't do Vitali Klitschko and I said all right I'll speak slowly and for the first few minutes of the interview I was like you know the British tourist on holiday can you show me the way to the Colosseum and I was very sorry but then after a few minutes I was in the heat at the moment I went back to my normal fast-paced speech and he was getting annoyed and I couldn't notice and then I asked him does he is he linked to the Ukrainian Mafia which was accusation at the time so the interview ends and he's Furious because I've spoken fast and I've accused him of being a criminal and he stands up over me six foot ten he says you said you would speak slowly and I'm thinking is he gonna hit me and if he hits me am I gonna die but is it gonna go viral horrible thoughts to be having all at the same time it's little sick little very sick but then Ryan gets to walk him out of the room he's Ryan's property that's tough where's Ryan today mine is in London he fled the country understandable all right hello can you record this my friend I forgot to ask him a voice recording is okay too videos so much huge fan of both of you so thank you for looking at me directing the eye I feel that my heart is beginning to flutter so uh let me get this over with whether it's from General me but yeah thank you so um I had a question actually because my friend who I had another friend I invited to come could not make it but I'm asking this on her behalf as well because I was just having a conversation with her about this topic and for her and I both we feel that there are so many times when we host and possess such an expansive and Variety in terms of our knowledge on of topics that can be so extensive however not to such a degree that becomes a specialty so perhaps this phrase known as a jack of all trades kind of thing and we were kind of wrestling with this idea of how to argue and I don't know if perhaps you addressed in the book but to the crowd tonight how do you find yourself tackling an argument with someone who perhaps could have more who can have more information on topic that you do not find yourself to be masters in political science this is kind of My Life um I never feel I not that I never feel that I don't have enough in French but sometimes I'm arguing someone who has views that perhaps I don't agree with but because of the lack of information and research-based fact I cannot carry on and I want to because no one wants to know why did you talk about that in the book A Lot okay it's a challenge for all of us uh Jen's gonna have it winter show launches I have it right now in my shoulder when I was doing I was doing a nightly interview very recently a nightly live show an hour a night and uh my my mother blessed I was watching on YouTube in the UK and she's like how do you I don't understand how you have time for how do you know how do you prepare for all these eyes I have a great team she goes how can you be on you know I know you don't know all this stuff so my mom she's my mum she wanted me to be a doctor she knows I don't know anything about covid what am I doing talking about medicine public health and uh every Asian child feels that not becoming a doctor um and it's really important I talk about the book the whole chapter on doing your homework and there's a whole chapter on Preparation and it's so important I've got I talk about in the book having to interview um uh people like um Stephen Pinker for example stupid huge intellect Huges 100 times smarter than me wrong on almost everything but smart guy right and I have to debate with him he comes on my show and you know we prepare as much as we can Paul Bremer I'll give the example I give in the book is Paul Bremen some of you may remember Paul rubber he was the Viceroy that George Bush sent to run Iraq and uh my father's home country again whatever well whatever you think about Paul Bremer smart guy and he turns up to do an interview me an hour and ten long interview on Iraq and his legacy in Iraq literally ran Iraq right I hadn't been to Iraq for 10 years at that point five years and this is years after so what do we do my team and I we go through everything we read his Memoir we read other people's Memoirs who were in Iraq at the same time we read all of the U.S inspector General's reports on waste of money during the Iraq occupation we go through all that stuff we spend days preparing to the point where I've got stack of papers to the point where the interview's over and he's sweating I'm sweating and he leans forward and it's a great moment he says nice research he leaves on he looks like he has nice research that is a great moment for someone like me who is I Define myself as a jack of all trades I'm not a specialist on anything I try and kind of keep interest in lots of interesting things and that again the simple answer to that solution is you've got to put in the work that you've got and actually can help you there is an advantage I took it there's a chapter in the book called Judo moves how you knock people off balance if somebody comes thinking I am the greatest Authority on this subject and you pull out three things they hadn't thought of or three studies they hadn't noted that immediately gives you an advantage in that position and they'll have newfound respect for you and the audience will have super respect for you thanks so much more sake bombs on MSNBC please all right how much how much time do we have left just so I don't know who I'm asking an authority there's like a voice of God somewhere okay great okay I'm too long in mind I'm gonna be very short no no I just want to make sure we get to as many people yeah yeah absolutely go ahead yes all right also a long time admirer of both of you thanks for doing this um your 60 second rants frequently go viral you simply do not stutter they're so good so effective and lethal in your arguments um I was wondering if you could take one of those two minutes to unspot whatever you want 60 seconds either either either I was thinking early I was thinking either maybe like you it's always a rant about something that's wrong in the world so maybe like a rant for 60 seconds about something that you find positive in American politics or 60 seconds on whatever is bothering you right at this moment I'll play the role of timer so um all right I'm gonna say here we go Ready set go I am 43 years old and I love living in this country because I love all the people who my kids age right now my kids are 15 and 10. I love young people in America because young people are saving Democracy in America and my evidence for that is go look at the 2018 midterms go look at the 2020 election go look at the 2022 midterms every study that's been done if you go talk to John de la Volpe at Harvard he will tell you that young people with a crucial difference Democrats say oh young people don't vote only old people vote no not true young people turned out in major levels if you take young voters out of the elected Democrats don't win the house in 2018 don't win the presidency in 2020 don't save the senate in 2022 and therefore young people are actually inspiring us because everyone's like young people apathetic they're always on Tick Tock they're always doing nonsense actually young people out there fighting for abortion rights fighting for civil rights fighting for minority rights fighting for transgender rights fighting for people who can't speak for themselves and so I say young people is what inspires me America because I don't care what the older generation is doing building walls and voting for Donald Trump it's for young people who are going to save this kind and save democracy because it needs saving to the second to the second thank you that was very good okay hi I'm Amanda and I have forgotten my question uh after that just kidding um I am a communication instructor um on the hill so I have worked with you before thank you very much and I admire you thank you um and I work for Congressman Betty McCollum so I very much one of the few members of Congress who truly stands up for Palestinians yes I'm honored to work for her and honored to have been on your broadcast before but my question is not about that my question is about gender and I would just love uh to know is there anything in your book um do you do you cover the gender politics around making a case and I would actually love to hear from you as well John if you have any I need another hours yeah I sadly I don't I don't address a head-on okay I will say one thing there are far too there are far too few women in this book I talk about Warren and others especially because some of the ancient examples are all men like they weren't many women unfortunately debating with Socrates back in the days me at least not that we're published well said um one thing I would say is when you talk about Jennifer you talk about the way that certain arguments when made by a woman would not be taken the same way when made by men that's 100 sure we saw I mentioned Hillary Clinton earlier Elizabeth Warren herself one thing I do say in the book is uh and it may not be the answer you're looking for but I talk about myself as I'm not a woman obviously but I'm a Muslim I'm a member of a minority which has its own comes with its own baggage I talk in the book about having ramf which is resting angry Muslim faces when I'm paying attention it looks like I'm angry literally when the question the guest is talking about please and therefore I have to deal with some of the baggage that comes with kind of people's stereotypes preconceptions angry Muslim man and one thing I say in the book is and again this is not a good answer Jen's gonna have a much more inspiring and hopeful answers with I say look you just have to deal with it you know what you can you know if you're trying to win the argument in that moment you're gonna have to save the point scoring the double standards the hypocrisy for another day you have to it I took it you have to be flexible you have to be nimble you have to adapt to your situation and you have to use it to your favor I've done it in my own case for example when I'm in front of a conservative crowd that thinks this Muslim person doesn't like the West I will go out of my way to talk about kind of the western Canon and the Magna Carta and our glorious Constitution because that throws them off balance they're not expecting the Muslim dude to say that but you're right there is a gender discourse there is a minority discourse uh not everything in this book probably applies in that way maybe that's the sequel I love that it's such a good it's okay oh man um here's what I would say um and I can only speak to my own experience with this um when I was working for President Barack Obama I was the only female spokesperson in the Press office um and I always felt and these were many people who are my friends then were my friends today uh but I always felt like maybe I had to replicate who they were right if their approaches were I'm going to yell at reporters and I'm going to slam down the phone and then I'm going to brag about it or I'm going to send like a Fu block curse laid an email and that's going to be how I am tough and I always thought I don't that doesn't feel really like me um but if I'm gonna be like them and be tough in this business I have to be like that it probably took me turning 40 to realize I don't have to be like that and amnetti talks about this as much as it's not about gender it's about being your authentic self and your own authentic version of of how to make those arguments so to me I would much rather not come out hot screaming expletives but know I have the receipts in my back pocket and I'm just waiting like a bear for Slaughter for somebody to walk into that but it doesn't but I don't have to do it with like f-bombs right I don't have to do it by slamming my phone um the other thing I would tell you is that my own experience was also that not all women but a lot of women and certainly for me you have to believe you can do it and there is a confidence Gap right of thinking I mean when I worked for Barack Obama and I became the spokesperson traveling with him on the 2012 campaign I was like how am I gonna do this there's no one else advising him it's me and it's like Robert Gibbs who was the Press at First Press Tucker said to me I can't do a Southern accent but just like play along with that like you just gotta act like you belong there and at certain point people believe you and that's true it's pretty simple but you didn't you weren't advising a president until you were you weren't making an argument on television until you did it and sometimes you just have to like do a little superhero fit you know pose I don't know if anybody watches Ted lasso in this room but I used to okay you know the scene when we're and then I'll rap because but you know the scene when Rebecca who is the female owner of the soccer team is going to go in and talk to the male soccer players and she does this like big thing where she's like a tree I used to do that before the briefing because it's a psychological thing where you're saying to myself I got this so figure out what your thing is find your authentic argument doesn't have to be like other people and then just you know fake it till you make it a little bit believe you can do it exactly there you go all right well I think that wraps our program um Medi this book which I read several months ago but it's phenomenal I learned a lot in this book there are so many key components of this book I still don't want to go on medi's show and I did Fox News a lot so um it's amazing highly recommend it I think you speak to Jen saki Brian Williams so much more right anyway I think Maddie's you're gonna sign some books right okay great well thank you all for coming this is an amazing crowd and turnout thank you

Channel: Politics and Prose

Views: 566,029

Keywords: books, book, politics and prose, bookstore, author, author talk, author video, book talk, new books, book store, indie bookstore, independent bookstore, book tube, booktube, reading vlog, annotating books, book annotations, reading vlogs, journalism, journalist, Washington DC, DC, bookworms, bookworm, book worm, book worms, book chat, @politicsprose

Id: 9zBAXKYdcus

Length: 62min 15sec (3735 seconds)

Published: Thu Mar 02 2023