No-deal Brexit: Destiny or disaster? | Head to Head

after three years and two missed deadlines we must leave the EU Britain is in chaos people are taking to the streets angry indignant divided and it's all because of brexit the Conservative government wants out of the European Union as fast as possible even without a deal and no matter the costs we're leaving on the 31st of October no ifs or buts for supporters of brexit a new world of global trade opportunities and reduced immigration beckons but the UK Parliament has blocked a No Deal scenario the eyes have a the eyes citing official warnings of an economic meltdown and even a shortage of food and medicines it's going to be an absolute disaster for everybody the battle between those who want to leave right now and those who want to remain is threatening to undermine British democracy [Applause] critics say the brexit is are guilty of incendiary rhetoric what brexit Stan will take the knife to them which has created a climate of fear for vulnerable minorities this one getting punished immigrants and even politicians my guest today is Richard theis co-founder and chair of the brexit party we're going to London to stoke the break super trial a key figure in the leave campaign he dismisses predictions of catastrophe as project fear I'm Mandi Hudson and I've come here to the Oxford Union to go head-to-head with Richard theis the British entrepreneur turned politician who's now leading the controversial No Deal brexit campaign I'll challenge him on how much responsibility his side takes for the polarizing of British society and ask him how on earth could leaving the EU without an agreement be good for Britain's democracy or economy tonight I'll be joined by three experts Graham gudgeon a pro brexit economist at Cambridge University and chief economic adviser at the conservative think-tank policy exchange he's also the editor of the briefings for brexit website jonathan is the deputy director for the pro-european think-tank British influence he's also a political commentator for the Guardian newspaper Prospect magazine and the BBC among others and ash Sarkar a senior editor at the progressive online media outlet navara media in London she also teaches political theory at the Sandburg Institute [Music] ladies and gentlemen please welcome Richard theis Tice has been a member of the European Parliament since May 2019 when the brexit party obtained a third of the vote Richard theis thanks for joining me on head - ever since the 2016 new referendum there have been three prime ministers - mister brexit deadlines the unlawful suspension of Parliament the collapse of the pound and the British people divided like never before isn't it the case Richard the brexit has led not just a political chaos but to the UK becoming the laughingstock of the world yes it's a simple word I mean the reality is that's what happens when you have weak feeble leadership you know I'm a businessman and a bad chief executive of a business can ruin it in two years a bad Prime Minister can humiliate a country in a couple of years and that's what we've seen with what happened to Theresa May as of right now the UK is in the midst of what many would call a constitutional crisis Parliament was suspended by the Pro brexit Prime Minister Boris Johnson it was an unsuspended by the Supreme Court that said it was null and void I remember Richard people saying we have to leave the EU because Parliament is sovereign not the EU not Brussels but now when the UK Parliament blocks Britain crashing out of the EU without an agreement blocks No Deal brexit suddenly you say Parliament's not sovereign anymore how convenient I've never said Parliament sovereign the people are sovereign they lend that sovereignty to Parliament and the disgraceful thing about what happened over the last 40 years is that Parliament then lent that sovereignty to an overseas power to the European Union without the people's consent and more and more and more power was permanently given to Brussels every political scientists including the ones and universities like this one as well as the Supreme Court of this country says Parliament is sovereign that's been a bedrock of British politics for decades for centuries before you and I were born but when you say you've never said it you're the group you found it leave EU said in October 2015 less than a year before the referendum and I quote though to leave the EU to ensure lawmaking power returns to our sovereign national parliament that's what you were saying back then as soon as that sovereign Parliament passes a law and bricks that you don't like it's not sovereign anymore that's very convenient what Parliament says is considerably more sovereign than giving it to the European Union but fundamentally the people of sovereign as I said so so your group to say in October 2015 said a sovereign national parliament yeah because the Parliament passes laws yes so it's been lent the sovereignty for a four or five year period to pass laws yes until it hands back that sovereignty to people so it's passed along now saying Britain cannot exit by October 31st yeah unless there's a deal and presumably the government will have to abide by its illegitimate law in your view legitimate yes I mean it's Parliament's past the lawns oh yeah and the Prime Minister should follow the law if he breaks the law because he suggested he's gonna exit regardless for sure would you support him breaking the law no of course not okay even if you're right that Parliament isn't sovereign that the public will somehow Trump's parliamentary legislation which I they say goes against political traditions in this country well you say that but actually that's what a referendum is about exactly because a referendum is the case for a references out sourced the decision to the people they did an advisory referendum no no let's be very clear it was an advisory or forget all that nonsense it's not nonsense it was an advisory referendum as they said they sent out a nine million pound leaflet to every house in the country sent a leaflet but the law the EU referendum at 2015 made it very clear was an advisory referendum we will need a Nigel Farage's said it was an advisory people have a right to trust what the government writes agreed okay but it wasn't under the law it was an advisory referendum can we agree on that as a fact let's agree on that but if you write the people fair you say that we will implement your decision and it's a once-in-a-generation decision and you then renege on that it's not surprising we face the biggest lack of trust betrayal of trust in democracy in this country given we're in this chaos right now and given that you know there's this argument over who is legitimate where the sovereignty lies we're finding in this conversation why not then let the public decide how to resolve this mess that we're in by holding another vote I mean if you had lost the last referendum campaign 52% to 48% instead of winning it as you did 52% to 48% you would have been calling for another referendum now two wouldn't you wouldn't we wouldn't be where we are message just to complete non freely well why didn't I do prefer aaj the leader of your party say in May 2016 a month before the referendum in a 52:48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way today I'm not Nigel Faraj I didn't hear him say whether you heard them or not is irrelevant he did say it to the mirror he's never denied saying it he said it would be unfinished business by a long way you can't just disown the leader of a party a way to manifest something awkward the way democracy works is that you have elections every five years right if you lose an election yeah you try and do better the next time you have a thing called losers consist an endorsee leader said you abide by that if you lost democracy only works in this country yeah if losers except they lost completely agree okay and yet your leader said your leader said if the remains campaign I'm quoting your leader I'm not forgiving any of my views if the remain campaign wins two-thirds to one-third that ends it you didn't win want two-thirds to one-third so it's not over according to Nigel Farraj I don't have to agree with every word that he said look if you want to review the referendum 10-15 years down the track that's fine happy but yeah you have to implement the will of the people first time right in the same way when you have it the will of the people so I'm saying that will give you a decision it's not edged in stone people get to change their minds don't have a general election and then say oh I didn't like the results so can we have another vote really just 2015 we might have one next month that's in two years [Applause] but what happened after that election Teresa may want it just with a hung parliament with the DUP so she's the Prime Minister right and she's trying to get three times she put a deal and you disagreed with that deal because it was a terrible deal is the worst it doesn't matter it was bricks if that's what you wasn't behind it we've always said that's not brexit that is that's half in half so what you're saying Richard is that there are multiple forms of brexit listen which weren't on the ballot paper in 2016 Mehdi there was leave on the ballot paper it wasn't it wouldn't leave subject to a deal you or Tereza may well let's be honest leave means leave that's why I founded the could by definition it doesn't mean that that's why we're in this mess it does repeat three words but it means nothing we'll talk about that beyond three words in a few moments but do you think we do keep it simple faithful we do before we do just something that's been a big story here in the UK recently and given an anti brexit MP Joe Cox was murdered in the middle of the referendum campaign by a white nationalist who considered her to be a collaborator and a traitor do you think it's wise right now that politicians constantly talk of betrayal of traitors of surrender isn't it irresponsible for your party denied you fraud to talk about picking up a rifle if brexit isn't delivered of taking a knife to civil servants in london is this not dangerous stuff Richard the word surrender is a normal part of the English language just like betrayal if we can't use simple language like that then actually you are preventing free speech you know no one's banning you saying we're saying we're saying when you hear when you hear women in Parliament saying they're getting death threats citing the primaries of words isn't that does that make you feel British the Joe Cox murder was absolutely hideously shocking and appalling huh I've never said don't we want to avoid another one happening by all moderating our lack of course how about picking up a rifle and knifing civil servants what about Ed Davies saying he wanted to decapitate the Prime Minister when air Davey comes on the show al asking about I'm also a Farraj we could do what about to them all day I use my own life I'm my own person I'm not responsible for other people I mean you're chair of the brexit body you actually are responsible for Nigel Frances he's the leader of your party that's how it worked other one who didn't have to be the chair in politics you don't dictate what other people say you don't but you have a comment on it let's just be clear do you disagree with the language of rifle and knifing it's not language I would have used why I choose different language that's what I'm wondering person because there's something wrong with what Freud said right everybody's different okay so you're okay with that language I'm sorry get clear are you okay with everybody's different I would use different language that's fine okay let's bring in our panel here who are waiting patiently to come in Jonathan lives as the deputy director the pro-european think-tank British influence he's also a journalist contributor to The Guardian Prospect among others Jonathan you've called this new rhetoric the end of playing by the rule you say people have every right to be scared Richard makes the point that there's people on your side of the argument using some pretty heated rhetoric - no one is using language which would incite violence on on my side of the debate no one is accusing anyone of treason and when they're in if they ever did then I would completely disavow that what we are seeing now is a very trumpian style approach where there's an attempt to reframe language and to normalize that reframing because in order to take control of the people you have to take control of their lexicon let me bring in Graham gudgeon who's a pro brexit economist at Cambridge University chief economic adviser at the conservative think-tank policy exchange great you've been a big supporter of brexit Boris Johnson the prime minister the UK at the time of this recording has said that he will take Britain out of the e on the 31st of October he's dodged questions of legality whether he would be breaking the law would you support that are you someone who says we've got to do brexit no matter what Parliament passes oh absolutely we've got to get this done now this has just gone on far too long companies are in trouble that they don't know what to do there are big investments to make even if it involves breaking the law just to be clear want to know where you stand there's a law that says he cannot do this no I don't think you should break that break the law but but the law itself the pen act is just ridiculous it's effectively hands over the power to the EU since we're not allowed to accept no deal the EU can offer us any deal that they want and they can offer any timescale they want and then the remainder parliament can say okay we'll accept that thing otherwise known as the Parliament the Parliament the United Kingdom which is suffering has really started you you've surrendered the key issue of how long we remain in I mean it's just like you make suggestion Parliament can accept it let's bring in ash Sarkar see the edits of the progressive online media outlet Navarro media she also teaches political theory at the Sandburg Institute is the language around bricks it is it is it as toxic as people seem to suggest it is well you know what I think is important to use passionate terms for when you feel passionately about politics I do have a specific question for you though because a few weeks ago one of your parliamentary candidates for South Northamptonshire Rachel Warby tweeted that she totally agreed with a list calling for me personally to be either executed or imprisoned do you think that this is appropriate conduct no I don't think that's appropriate candidate well I have to look at it and make a form of you I mean do you have a code of conduct about this kind of thing of course we do and is and is calling for political opponents be executed against that code of conduct well I will look at it of course I'll give you that I will give the other assurance right we have withdrawn the whip from one of our MEP s because of a conflict of interest between his business interests and his role as an MEP very very briefly is that it seems to me that there's a pattern of behavior when it comes to using language around violence by brexit party supporters including Nigel Farage I remember the day of the referendum result they boasted that have been won without a single bullet being fired merely days after the murder of Joe Cox so my next question would be these brexit party supporters who radicalize them and where it's it's a big divisive moment so what about what about Davey the other day it's okay for remain as to serve is it let me ask you quick before we move on very quickly if you agree as you say you do we all agree that we want to reduce the likelihood of god forbid another attack or a murder of a member of Palembang what give me your top proposal for creating a Britain where that doesn't happen what would you like to see happen get this job sorted so we can actually try and unify the country about a successful economic performance afterwards so that we can they're mumbling about rhetoric people's rhetoric you know this is such a divisive issue let's implement it and then we can all move on you talk about implementation Richard you're running on a platform to leave the European Union without a deal whether on October 31st or beyond but just going back to 2016 when your side was telling the British people that they could leave the EU with a great deal with a trade agreement in place it would be easy so I'm wondering were you deliberately misleading them back then were you gaslighting them or were you ignorant about how differently there was going to be which one is it neither what was it then why did you make those promises why because actually we'd had proper leadership from someone who believed in breaks it we would have got that you didn't say vote leave you'll be great unless there's a bad Prime Minister I don't like you didn't add that little Asterix caveat and we didn't say leave subject to a deal that everybody likes we said leave you went on the BBC in the run-up to the referendum and you promised the viewers that the UK would quote still have a friendly agreement negotiated with the EU in the two years after we vote no it's been three and Frank said on the economics it'll be broadly the same that's what you told it's gonna be even better and you if I'd be negotiating it we would have had a deal and we would have been out run out hold on even Michael Gove conservative cabinet minister one of the leaders of the vote leave campaign he said he said I quote we didn't vote to leave without a deal that wasn't the massive message of the campaign I helped lead he's being honest about it why not just he's owned it we got it wrong he's not being honest about it here's a man who a few months ago said you know that we were leaving with a good deal to resumés deal now he's in charge of leaving without a deal or a clean break breaks here and he's saying that's absolutely fine but you just can't trust a word that man says Aaron banks who was the big donor to the levy who's got nothing to do it was a big donor to the levy you can be a referendum right now when you were saying in the referendum three of you Norway free-trade agreement none of that's on the table now now you're telling us to forget all that maybe we just own it why pretend you were always for a No Deal slash clean break so what did Michel Barnier say at the beginning of the negotiations he said if you want a simple free trade deal you can have one to resume rejected it and that's why we're in the mess we are only isn't she isn't it only last week Misha Barney I had a meeting with one of my colleagues one of my bricks at Party MEP and he said if we leave with a with no deal with a clean break breaks it then they will start negotiating a free trade deal the following week I mean you know what the economists are saying you know what the Office of Budget Responsibility said about they're the same people who said that we'd go into immediate recession would lose half a million job you said the pound would collapse and it did and we were employing a million people more than we did at the time the referent and you lowest rate of unemployment well outperforming the eurozone one of the members of the monetary policy committee the Bank of England says already the cost of brexit is running at 40 billion pounds a year how the IMF which last time I checked didn't vote in referendum on UK GDP is about three and a half percent by 2021 the army led by christine lagarde right who said that there's going to be a complete collapse so no IMF British Retail Consortium that says prices will go up in supermarkets after no dia breakfast there'll be a shortage of film it won't they won't know the people on so you know more than the person who runs Sainsbury's and Tesco's yes frankly you know more than the Bank of England because you know more than more than the Bank of England because he's at he's you know he's useless okay every decision he's made about the interest rate it's been totally and utterly wrong when we leave on a clean break we can then make the decisions about what tariffs we cut so we can cut the tariffs of goods that we don't produce in this country consumer goods food for everyone right under World Trade Organization laws but if we do reduce tariffs on everything know on goods that we don't produce I've been to the WTO very senior people there and they said right I went to them back in January and they said yes you could easily turn the 29 page political declaration into an article 24 heads of terms and actually that would be a sensible thing to do given where it's at who did you meet at the WTO I met a couple of their very senior matter what are their names I'm not gonna give you the names now well I'm telling you the director-general of the WTO Rafa Acevedo says there will be costs and the cost may be very significant in some sectors but his predecessor Pascal Lamy who run the WTO before him says you'd be brutally jumping from trade Ligue 1 to trade league 3 that's the director-general of the WTO and his predecessor but two anonymous people you may have guaranteed you things will be fine I asked you their names I can't tell me them I didn't say I just they actually asked me not to say the names if you really want to know okay right then the realities they said what would what you know what they thought we could do and should do I think that's absolutely right we've always said that we should ask for an article 24 heads of agreement under the wo rules which basically means you agree the heads of terms you then basically in corporate terms you put it into solicitors hands and you dot the i's and cross did you know that can't have that the fundamental points of agreement is the two sides have to agree of course is not going to agree to have a cherry pick heads of terms trade agreement if we don't give the EU what they want which is citizens rights the divorce and the Irish backs up the eg who has always had more leverage in the UK because it's like it's more powerful it's rich than we are they can afford to walk way rich that is the truth without so let me bring in virgin I'm billion they are almost bucket let me ask you this gram the yellowhammer document from the government also is predicted possibly shortage of medicines foods disruption at the border delays are you willing to concede that one no I know to everybody to look at that yellow hammer doc you a twenty five pages it won't take you very long it is the most ridiculous document yeah it's not so it's utter guy it's not a prediction it's what they is what they call a worst-case scenario well actually they called it they called it a base scenario and then they renamed it when it got after I got leaves you know if they kept the base case scenario it would be beyond ridiculous it would be is the internal planning document from a probe just to be clear but they're part of the remained conspiracy as well let me tell you what this analysis was based on this just quotes from document it's not not what not my view if between 50 and 85 percent of haulage companies are unable to fill in French customs forms not only on the first day but for three months and then half of them are unable to fill in these forms for six months then we'd have problems now the French customs and indeed our own customs have been handing out forms to lorry drivers for the last six months why would you say there won't be any disruption after a No Deal breaks I'm not saying that I'm saying to be a if there's any disruptions would be fairly small Jonathan very briefly respond to there will be a small disruption well I mean look the government is as you say a Pro breaks the government I say listen to actual government which has no interest in in ramping up the dangers of no deal they are saying that terrible things can happen we have a duty a responsibility to listen to those risks and pay attention how could anyone read that document and approve No Deal is completely beyond me ash I just want to bring you on on something or debris you know Senator Richard said about hold on which I'll bring back a little second to respond just just one thing is that fair now when you hear all the debates in British politics about we were misled we should rerun the vote they weren't fully honest with us etc advisor ever where do you stand on all that I'm what you'd call it you're a skeptic remain and which means that I a lien--a everyone and no one likes for me I there are very strong arguments about why brexit should happen and I think the main one is the democratic principle which is when you vote for something regardless of what the letter of the law says about it being advisory or not advisory our political system relies on the trust of the electorate and I do think that there is a negative consequence for breaking that trust I do also however think that there is no mandate for no deal there was when Parliament voted to trigger article 50 Parliament has since changed its mind which is the right of Parliament but I've got a very very simple question for you and it's really straightforward I know that you don't hold truck with what's in the yellow hammer reports but it says two things one is that lowest income families are likely to be hardest hit by the disruption and second is that there may be some shortages of medicine now I know you think that none of that's going to happen but if you could just put a number on it for me how many job losses are worth brexit happening and how many deaths from medicine shortages for you oh that's ash thank you that question is beneath you the great thing is we're actually because it's going to be a huge success because it's not your job I've just told you we've come on to the medicines point now it's really important briefly so this this ridiculous suggestion that you know we're gonna have a medicines shortage let's just think folks you know one of our VPS was with for French pharmaceutical companies just a fortnight ago and every single one of those executives from those companies French pharmaceutical companies said it's completely ridiculous of course we're going to keep selling and course that we plenty of medicines let me ask you a question if we take a break if you're wrong about the medicines issue and the disruption the shortage of food I just want to know how do people hold you to account for that here are now in an election that's how elections work you know if politicians stand up and say something like well and I'm quite happy to stand up and say tellers and retailers my heart it's never half-empty I'm a positive optimistic sort of guy I think Mina the final item in solution isn't in us tube that's to worry always yeah to miss maybe you're deluded okay we will have to take a break there you're watching head-to-head we will be back in part two with Richard theis and our panel and our very patient audience here in the Oxford Union to discuss what's happening with British public opinion is it more divided than ever before and what's the future for Richards brexit party join us after the break [Applause] welcome back you're watching you head-to-head on al Jazeera English my guest today is the businessman turned politician Richard theis whose chair of the brexit party and we're talking about what else brexit Richard a lot of minorities in this country people of color immigrants feel as if racism and xenophobia has gone up since the 2016 referendum and a lot of the official stats on hate crimes on racist attacks a lot of the polls seem to support that view given the leave campaign ran and overtly nationalistic campaign some would say xenophobic campaign is it any surprise to you that racism and racist attacks have gone up in Britain in recent years I think you know to the extent that they have then you know that's a that's a tragedy and of course you know no one should welcome that you know my view on immigration has always been that this country has been very good at welcoming immigration but you have to have sensible immigration that works for your economy and in the last 10 years we've had immigration of over a quarter of a million a year and actually we've had zero real wage growth for the least well-off in society and you know that's what happened and and people felt anxious about that what you're saying is a very legitimate view many politicians many people in the public hold that view about immigration but it's more about the tone for example that breaking-point poster that some will remember here that was run that Nigel fried unveiled during the referendum campaign that had in some people's views Nazi undertones I mean Michael Gove who co-chaired the vote leave campaign the other leave campaign said he regrets the very harsh anti-immigrant anti-foreigner aspect of the campaign do you yes some stuff was said that probably should have been said you know some of the stuff was difficult it was tough dude through the breaking point poster I think that was tough and you know it it was a tragic tragic racist was it racist different people have different views do you think I mean was it racist you tell me what you're viewing I don't think it was why why I just don't think what it was a picture that it appeared let's remember on all sorts of newspapers in previous weeks the campaign you co-founded levy you still active you've quit that campaign I you have to be pretty clear I left that just off the reference yes since then it's been accused of anti-semitism when it posted an image of a Jewish billionaire George Soros as a puppet master with Tony Blair it's been accused of Islamophobia after post an image of London Mayor Sadiq Khan next to the words London is Stan and Islamic fundamentalism do you condemn those anti-semitic Islamic images by your Islamophobic you can't be held responsible for an organisation's action I'm not asking you do you condemn them yeah I don't like it I wouldn't have done it if I was involved okay yeah I'm not involved okay I think it's really interesting isn't it how people try and continue to discredit and smear someone even though they've got nothing to do with organization you've just tried to organisation and they did bad things after I left and somebody do you condemn I say yeah that was run condemn it and I don't like it you're looking at me so I don't like you okay let's talk about your current party the brexit party Nigel Farage is a man the most famous brexit er in Britain I think it's fair to say you've compared him to Gandhi and Mandela in this very chamber of yeah and actually he he yeah and I have to say in terms in terms of delivering lasting change okay absolutely okay well let's be honest about breaks it breaks it is a huge opportunity a seismic shift in the way this country is gonna be run let me just finish my quest that is last engage my question before before they turn in their graves further and he has a long history of complaining about foreign languages being spoken on the train Romanians moving in next door to him immigrants causing traffic jams a powerful Jewish lobby can you really blame people for calling Farraj as a leader of your party and your party itself xenophobic even racist based on that kind of language I just I just fundamentally don't agree I mean you know you only look at the brexit party right we've got more diversity amongst our MVPs than any other party in the European Parliament that doesn't cancel out if you have black candidates it will the Rangers can make will restart Rajan's it's not like a get-out-of-jail-free card that you go if we were racist party would we have that diversity I didn't say you're racist party if you just laid just inferred I said can you blame people for thinking a racist when your leader says yes yes Romanians are moving in next door to him yeah I do blame people people say they look at my nacelles racist you're saying they're wrong to say that I'm saying fine I don't want a racist you know we are not a racist party you have a problem in the Romanians moving in next door to you basically no I mean you know what no I was checking yeah because he does so I'm just checking but it's not just fraud your former colleague and party leader Catherine Blake Glock who co-founded the brexit party was forced to resign because she said Islam is equal to slavery Muslim men were impregnating white British girls to create Muslim babies and she retweeted a leading UK neo-nazi dozens of times she recently compared Clapham to the Caribbean and said the Tower Hamlets looked like Pakistan and those you know those were outrageous things to say and that's why she left the party almost immediately the moment it was set up when which credit to your party format but then she's the founder of your party that's she's not just some random passerby that's why we got rid of her but why did you let us set up the party you didn't know she was I wasn't I wasn't involved in that moment Nigel chose someone to set up the party he maybe he didn't know what she was saying or tweeting or doing okay but feride won't be leaving anytime soon well no no and the idea that he's racist is just wrong so plain wrong I know the bloke he's not it's as simple as that is it as simple as I just go things that he said okay I know him better than you and I'm telling you he's not a racist I'll be honest I'm glad you know him better than I do let's go to our panel here who were listening ash Sircar is a senior editor at Navarro media she also teaches political theory at the Sandburg Institute ash in your view since the brexit referendum took place in June 2016 has racism gone up in the UK and can it be attributed to a single figure or campaign or movement or played well is that too simplistic I'll give you an example of something that happened to me the day after the referendum campaign I took a walk with my friend in the morning and someone leaned into both of our faces and called me a brown c-word and then later on that day a group of men got in my face and started yelling brexit right so for them that meant something when they saw an Asian woman and then since then I've experienced more racism just walking around London than I have before in my life and my experiences are also backed up by statistics you have huge increases and reported racist hate crimes now I'm not saying that it's caused by brexit I'm not saying that anyone who supports brexit is racist but what I want to know is what your explanation is for why so many racists seem to feel that the brexit result validated their hateful and bigoted views and why they feel so able to act on them it's appalling yeah there is there is zero justification it's appalling and utterly concerned I'm deeply sorry that you had those experiences of course but it seems to me that it's easy for you to condemn it when it's around them on the street but it's the leader of your party suddenly you bending over backwards and contorting to explain why I'm just saying you know he's not a racist I know the bloke he's not a race let's go to Graham gudgeon is a pro brexit economist at Cambridge University chief economic adviser to the think-tank policy exchange Graham you were saying in part one that in addition to being a proud brexit support you're also an academic you have to look at the evidence when there's a 22% rise since 2016 and the number of ethnic minorities reporting racism discrimination that they've experienced is that causation correlation how do you link that to the EU referendum in your view I mean I think there's always problems when there's rapid cultural change in in a society it's it's a speed which which matters there's a great majority in the UK and it's not just levers actually it's a lot of remainders as well agree with the idea that you have to control migration that doesn't mean necessarily that you have to diminish it in Australia they've actually increased immigration after they controlled it because people relaxed they think if it's good for Australia's another country where races attacks have gone up so it's not exactly the best example to give in defence yes but the migration that we're going to control in the UK is European migration from European countries it in a sense the same European race if that's controlled I think we'll probably will probably experience larger immigration from India the Middle East and other places that hardly suggests that this is the racist policy I don't think we say anything about the policy I think we're talk about the people involved Jonathan lizard the deputy director of the pro-european think-tank British influence Jonathan the language the referees and razor language do you blame your opponents for no look we have to look at the the referendum campaign from 2016 which was overtly Islamophobic I remember the posters saying turkey population 80 million in brackets is about to join the EU and a series of footsteps leading to an open door that was a naked attempt to terrify middle England into voting for Brett sit on his llama phobic grounds and he had another poster not for new organization from boat leave which had turkey highlighted with Iraq and Syria on a map Maxim now that wasn't his llama phobic and a mainstream Islamophobia discourse I don't know what was so humbug well the good news is that John's and I we agree on something that it you know that poster didn't come from us but let's just remember it was government policy at the time David Cameron's policy at the time was for Turkey to join the European Union that's actually not true you know it's true I was don't lie Richard I'm not lying I worked the European Parliament I worked in their Foreign Affairs Committee where Turkish membership was discovered on a week it was a shake up everyone if he went to Brussels you would know that Turkey was not joining for decades if ever so simple a lie though I was very back at you and the other point for a minister to go on penny is penny Morgan did on television and say that Britain a she had no veto over Turkish membership was simply another way to terrify people into voting for brexit how could we possibly say this is legitimate I've got to move on but I I'm just gonna make the point again it was UK government policy under David Cameron join the euro dude are you saying the turkey poster was all wasn't bad it was you know it was tough some tough stuff was done you say tough other people say racist where's the gap between tough and racism subjects if it's difficult I'm just wondering where's your where did where does racism begin for you then with those kind of things it doesn't it actually I didn't think I don't think those posters were racist but they're you know they were tough they were sharp it was a tough sharp end of the campaign huffin sharp is new youthful missives for what many people are minimums I'm allowed week if I'm allowed to use whatever language I want nobody said you're not allowed it no way you'd be dearly for that nobody stop what you because you're attacking the language I use I've asked you to define your language your terms are very loose tough and sharp does nothing loose about tough and sharp it's pretty clear actually is it as clear as bricks it means bricks it yes it is and it's good as clear as lead means leave leave p-please see you're one of these who still thinks that it was Lee's subject to a deal it wasn't it was leave yeah I'm foolish enough to watch the man go on BBC in 2016 call Richard Tyson say we will get a deal and all Smith's and if I'd been insurance we would have got to do okay but we didn't so therefore we shouldn't leave according to your logic before we go to our very patient audience here in the arts video and one quick question about the brexit party we talked in part one a great deal about democracy and importance of democracy and yet your own party the brakes Abadi has basically no internal democracy whatsoever it's run as a company with two directors you and Nigel Farage with registered supporters not members it's run basically as a dictatorship by you and Nigel fraud isn't it it's run as a fast-growing tech startup and hey folks you at the end of the day democracy basically is at the ballot box and actually essentially isn't it we've got things done we're only 25 weeks I mean I'm sweet many dishes get things done around the world that's what dictators do doesn't mean it's a good thing it's a conservative structure your friend Aaron banks says it's almost a dictatorship it's a normal company structure and people have the they have the option to vote for it at the ballot box and interesting isn't it when they have that option they voted for it and we won a national election securing 50% more votes than anybody else maybe actually people are focused on the the opportunity of breaks it not only 1% of the vote 1/3 of the vote if 2 percent more than any other part of a third of the vote I mean it's a great use of Statistics a third of the vote we won let's go to our audience who want to come in now let's go to someone at the back lady there with a hand up you're a businessman turned politician another businessman turned politician comes to mind that's Donald Trump one of my frustrations sometimes with people in your position is that I feel that you shuck the social responsibility that comes with some of your policies so what do you say to people like us who have been told things like go back where you come from when we've only ever lived in this country do you have anything to say to us other than I'm so sorry that happened to you I said it earlier to action I'm very sorry if that happens to you you know of course we have social responsibilities as politicians I absolutely agree with that you have policies on fighting racism yes we do we're completely intolerant of intolerant of what's the poly said you have policy well that is the policy the policy that's just another phrase what's your definition of a policy a plan that a government can enact using the powers of the state or the exchanging laws around discrimination inequality changing the education system cracking down on discrimination all of those I'm not even a politician [Applause] you recently accused our tea shock Leora car of hijacking the brags issue and claimed that the amount of trade crossing the Irish border was to use your own words on micros irrelevant can I say is a point of information there is no such thing as an Irish land border it is a UK border imposed on the island of Ireland the Irish border is the see if you think it is irrelevant can you now speak to the social and political implications to the people of Northern Ireland if a hard border is introduced if you care so at all a picture tells a thousand words right think of a glass jar with a thousand Smarties in it I was going to note your analogy which was horrific by the way I want a thousand Smarties those Smarties represent all of the trade that goes across all of the 28 countries in Europe okay the trade that goes across that Irish border is between one and two Smarties it is a tiny tiny amount how dare you this is not about economics I've asked you about the social and political implications so the people of Northern Ireland if a hard border is introduced it's not going to be introduced because everybody has that's not what young called Yonkers said he said there has to be we can't do some animals coming across the border what he said everybody who said they're not going to impose a hard border the head of the police force in Northern Ireland says he worries this could be a trigger for violence is he part of a remain conspiracy as well I don't look the reality well you know more about policing in Northern Ireland the net but but there is no reason about to be the so when assistant Chief Constable Barbara great gray who heads up the counterterrorism unit in Northern Ireland says we predict that a six to twelve month period if there's a No Deal brexit there could be an upsurge in violence that doesn't worry you at all of course everybody should be worried if you know you don't sound very worried you just made it analogy about Smarties and we're talking about the return of violence I used I used an econ [Applause] let's go back gets violent let's before I got my audience deal with the violence point them yeah no one wants violets Leslie very clear so let's go back people are warning of violence Richard what do you say to them I say why did the head of the EU zone report into the border lasse karlsson who had a report called smart borders - he said that under any situation any type of deal that could be a friction-free border Younker has said that's not the case and he said I'm gonna go back to this Radtke point because just before he we're briefing the audience that way but this is such a crucial it is as the lady quite rightly says under under enda kenny right he said with goodwill we can find the technological solutions he had good will unfortunately his successor didn't many other hijackers shoot for disgraceful his own reasons okay let's go to the gentleman there my question is about immigration from the EU to the UK could in that Northern Ireland border become a choke point because anyone in the EU has the right to go to Dublin there is no visa no control no checks and supposedly if there's no border just walk across the border okay so my question is what we do about that would you put up controls between northern and nothing but nothing okay so then there would be free-floating immigration into the UK then from the EU yeah there's been a common travel area in Ireland and Northern Ireland for a hundred years and of course that would remain so you're okay with people coming in from the EU through the frictionless border yeah that we'll have is that what leave means leave yeah I don't think it'll happen but to the extent it does you know we'll have to look at it okay maybe here when we leave I'm the brexit Portuguese woman and I want to know what will happen to my rights because the settlement scheme didn't work for me I gave your country my youth what will you give me um thank you very much that question it's a great person and and the scheme is there at the moment and it sounds that have you just recently tried to get settled status my status was frozen for five months my Embassy is helping me I felt very frustrated I'm sure and I sympathize and I'm very sorry about that because then since Nigel frosh how many years have you been in the UK just 20 20 years and you're now worried about your future person yes yeah and and he started to talk I was attacked attacked many times you can't put on one you can't put on I'm sorry listen straight after the referendum I said the very first thing we should do is we should say that everybody's every EU citizens rights were absolutely guaranteed I said that on question time in November 16 and I was poo pooed for it but I'd you know by a Labour MP but do you absolutely feel that was absolutely the right to sort this in your country it's your country but if you start our conversation by saying the island is full and you didn't differentiate by anybody then we wouldn't be divided like this okay we're going to respond to that I didn't say the island is full I've always I've always said I welcome immigration on a sensible controlled basis okay let's go back to the audience gentlemen here as we're waiting in the front so the brexit party is claiming to be sort of an answer to labour in a lot of working-class communities so why was your first policy that you brought out to get rid of inheritance tax like who you really you know because that was not first policy right that wasn't our first policy our very first policy was actually to invest over a hundred billion quid in the regions that have been left behind we announced it on the 30th of June had our political rally we said how we're going to pay for it and actually you know it's it's those regional road and rail scheme will help the least well-off insistent with the inherence tax point no that is a very regressive tax it helps rich people in this country that's not really standing up for the left behind I you look it's well actually it's interesting isn't it it's the most unpopular most hated tax in the UK and we think it's we think it's unfair we think it's egregious see they started the benefits from a cotton inherence test would go to the richest two states at mistakes worth over a million pounds we've got policies on the left in the middle and on the right but that is the most unpopular tax and we think it would actually it's been pretty well received very briefly ash come anyway a company that you set up in 1991 a suddenly Property Group documents passed me by open democracy showed that over 40% of it is owned by two firms one based in Panama one based in the British Virgin Islands so why should we trust you on the direction of this country when a company that you set up most of its dividends dividends go through tax havens and auction this country simply because I'm a UK I'm a UK taxpayer I was one of the shareholders do about a dozen showers in that business right they were UK shareholders and they pay you I'm happy to be corrected quick question do you own sincere Holdings Limited in Panama or shuttlecock Holdings Limited in the British Virgin Islands absolutely I know owned them have nothing to do with cracking down on what the brexit body be cracking down on tax havens when it's an office yeah I'll tell you why I'll tell you why because what we believe we believe in high growth low taxation if you have low taxation in this country then you reduce the need for people to look at tax avoidance gentleman here in the white shirt given that the vote leave campaign has been found to have broke in electoral law by the Electoral Commission why should we respect the results of a referendum won by illegal means well firstly firstly it it wasn't won by illegal means right there was a there was a lawful referendum right over 30 million people participate in that referendum the votes were counted and we won by over a million votes and then after the reality and then after was done you were 13 it's a magnet some amount for overspending that's cheating some might say it's not cheating cheating just on the 70 grand that levy you was fined yeah you paid that fine but I don't know I'm not involved in leave Dottie you have no idea but you were at the time but the fine covers the period you were in charge of it I was a co-founder of it yeah I genuinely deserve 70 grand so you can understand remain as say come on this isn't fair that one of the main items campaigning got fine for overspending you understand why people say that and it's interesting it because Priti Patel the current home secretary asked the Electoral Commission to investigate why the remain campaign set up five companies in the last month so they could spend an extra million quid illegally and the Election Commission wouldn't investigate why because it's deeply bad but just to be clear levy you did pay a 70 grand fine for overspending in your referendum campaign no one's disputing that well I don't know cuz I don't know if they paid a 70 grand fine it's pretty big news because I'm not a director but I wasn't involved in it but you don't even voted to know what's happening in the news what did you know if you missed it they've subsequently been exonerated haven't they they've been late so they've got the 70 grand back I told you I don't know what did you know don't MIT police know you can't pick and choose what you know you can because the Middle East suddenly you know about the story suddenly you don't it has continued I can tell you what's public information which is the Met Police and the National Crime Agency have confirmed that leave Totten you did not carry out any illegal criminal activity at gentleman ear if a school 50 was to be revoked all together what was your prediction be for the future of British politics are you someone who wants to see it revoked not revoke I vote for brexit I'm 22 from southeast London and I vote for the brexit party so I think I think would be absolutely disastrous trust in democracy in this country would collapse even further than it currently is I mean it would be the most appalling thing let me ask you this one last question before we finish let's say you get your wish and this No Deal brexit / clean break happens if not on October 31st and shortly after its and let's say I know this is hard for you to hear you're wrong and the economists and the Bank of England the obr are right and there's a housing crash there's a fall in GDP there's inflation there's employment at that point will you say nope it was all still worth it Breck's it was worth the cost or will you say maybe we got this wrong well there's different elements there's the economic issue and I think I'm right if I'm wrong people won't vote for us is very simple but if there's other issues in terms of reaching exact in terms of sovereignty you we get back our sovereignty from the European Union back to Parliament and back to the people so that is you know that is that is something that is absolutely priceless we must achieve that and you know that is priceless just to be clear yeah there's a recession you think but we got our freedom back yes settlement yeah I think that you wouldn't be suffering from that recession isn't if there's a recession everybody suffers by the same way Richard you won't be suffering as much as some of the low-income communities are hit by well as I've said before that actually if we have a clean break breaks it we can cut tariffs immediately on the items of the goods that actually reducing those prices will benefit the least well-off the poorest paid in our society the most and that's a good thing on that note we're gonna have to leave it there thank you to our patient audience in the Oxford Union thank you to our panel of experts thank you to richard theis for coming on that's also heads ahead we'll be back next week [Applause]

Channel: Al Jazeera English

Views: 547,203

Keywords: youtube, theresa may, boris johnson, no deal brexit, aljazeera, aljazeera english, discussion, al jazeera english, nigel farage, aljazeera live, europe, brexit, aljazeera.com, racism, immigration, al jazeera, islamophobia, united kingdom, european, headtohead, head to head, eu, mehdi hasan, richard tice, aljazeera news, european union, brexit party, interview, ireland, uk, leaver, remainer

Id: 0EEUkhdaecU

Length: 49min 35sec (2975 seconds)

Published: Fri Oct 11 2019