Lord of the Rings - Aegnor & Andreth | Tolkien Reading Day 2022

hey internet it's matt here for the dork lords if you're new to the channel welcome we talk about all manner of dorkly things here whether it's sci-fi fantasy superheroes we probably have a playlist about it feel free to check us out today march 25th is tolkien reading day and every year to celebrate several members of the tolkien youtube community collaborate on a token reading day playlist some of the big channels participate like in deep geek and men of the west as well as some of the smaller channels like yours truly i'll put a link to the playlist at the end of the video and in the description this year's theme is love and friendship and as it happens there's a topic that several commenters have requested including larissa and christiane fiorito that fits in perfectly with this theme that topic is the relationship between ignore and andrus the first recorded elven elven-human relationship in the chronology of middle-earth okay first let's get the backstory for this i ignore and andreth are probably the most obscure of our notable elven human pairings the big three would be baron and luthien two are in idril and aragorn and arwen and there are other half elven pairings as well but all of those relationships post-date ignore and andreth as i mentioned they're the first and another unique feature of this relationship is that unlike the big three andreath is a human woman in love with ignore the brother of galadriel now tolkien wrote about this relationship in a passage called atherbes finrad andres there's a lot of thus in there but aka the debate of fenrod and andruth it's in the history of middle-earth compendium fienrod is also the brother of ignore and galadriel it's notable that tolkien leaves ignore out of this conversation it's an in-depth heartfelt discussion between andreth and the brother of her true love it's odd but i think tolkien's reasoning is that this impassioned conversation changes fien rod's perspective and as it happens dramatically impacts the fate of middle earth just put a pin in that because we'll come back to it andrea is a wise woman from the house of baor she will eventually be the great aunt of baron ignore and his brother angrad rule the realm of dorthumian and that is where andreth and ignore meet and fall in love flash forward a few decades to the year 410 of the first age so thousands of years before the war of the ring fienrod has found that he can talk philosophy and get an honest human perspective from andrus and he has many conversations with her of which one of these conversations i believe the last conversation appears in the history of middle earth i know i'm burying the lead on this conversation but i want to give one more bit of backstory first the year 410 happens during the siege of angband arguably the most peaceful era for the elves in the first age that siege is going to be broken by the battle of sudden flame in 455 but for now all is well sometime before the year 410 before this conversation galadriel goes to visit her brother fenrod in his realm of nagathrond and as sisters do she asks him about his relationship status silmarillion chapter 15. it came to pass that narcothrone was full wrought and the sons of finnarfin were gathered there to a feast and galadriel came from doriath and dwelt a while in nagathrond now king finrad feligund had no wife and galadriel asked him why this should be but foresight came upon feligund as she spoke and he said an oath i too shall swear and must be free to fulfill it and go into darkness nor shall anything of my realm endure that a son should inherit but it is said that not until that hour had such cold thoughts ruled him for indeed she whom he had loved was a marie of the vaniar and she went not with him into exile talk about a conversation killer hey brother are you seeing anybody these days your question has just spawned a vision of my impending death please pass the potatoes anyway uh yes dramatic this passage shows you finrod's mindset at this time of his life his true love amarye is back in the west he left her out of a perceived duty to the noldor he made a choice to reject love he has just had a vision of his impending death and the destruction of his realm and he has the gift of prophecy which we'll see later as well and because of the doom of mendoz he has no reason to think he will be reborn once he dies spoiler alert uh he does get reborn so that guy with that mindset is talking with andreth around the year 410. the beginning of their talk revolves around the recent death of andra's grandfather boron not the element at the age of 93. that leads to a rather lengthy discussion of the difference between elven and human lifespans it's an interesting chat but it's not on the theme of love and friendship so i'll just sum it up with this quote from finrod the debate of finrad and andreth thus far then i perceive that the great difference between elves and men is in the speed of the end in this only for if you deem that for the quenty there is no death inelectable you air now none of us know though the valar may know the future of arda or how long it is ordained to endure but it will not endure forever you see us the quindi still in the first ages of our being and the end is far off as maybe among you death may seem to a young man in his strength save that we have long years of life and thought already behind us but the end will come that we all know and then we must die we must perish utterly it seems for we belong to arda and beyond that what the going out to no return as you say the uttermost end the irremediable loss our hunter is slow footed but he never loses the trail i did not know this said andreth and yet and yet at least ours is slow-footed you would say said femron now let me say up front that i love the character of fenrod he's top tier elven royalty he demonstrates all the traits of a true epic hero but his logic here is terrible it sounds really patronizing actually i guess i'm letting my pro-human bias show through i'm glad andreth calls him out when she says i did not know this and yet he basically says i can empathize with your human mortality because we elves also die or we will when the world ends okay i mean it's great because it does sound like something someone would say who has no frame of reference for what a 90-year lifespan is like he can't process that andreth is approaching 50 years old at this point and she's going to pass away at around age 95. and finrod can say with a straight face yep just like us you live for 90 years we live for a few million you know it's basically the same no no it isn't it isn't at all i'm calling bs on that one i do really like the line our hunter is slow footed but he never loses the trail it's awesome pros talking at his best but they're slow and there's wait till the end of the world's slow the advantage for humanity is that our spirits can leave arda while elves lives are tied to the land so this gap in mortality between elves and humans is described as a gulf between them and this is where the conversation turns to ignore because one of the reasons ignore and andreth are not currently together is that gulf a couple of terms you'll hear in this next quote one is ikonar that's another name for ignore and the other term is adanath finrod uses it when talking to andreth adenf basically means woman across the gulf that divides our kindreds said andreth is there no bridge but mere words and then she wept again there may be for some i do not know he said the gulf maybe is between our fates rather for us we are close akin closer than any other creatures in the world yet perilous is it to cross a gulf set by doom and should any do so they will not find joy upon the other side but the griefs of both so i deem but why dost thou say mere words do not words overpass the gulf between one life and another between thee and me surely more has passed than empty sound have we not drawn near at all but that is i think little comfort to thee i have not asked for comfort said andreth for what do i need it for the doom of men that has touched thee as a woman said feenrod dost thou think that i do not know is he not my brother dearly loved i ignore eikenar the sharp flame swift and eager and not long are the years since you first met and your hands touched in this darkness yet then thou were to maiden brave and eager in the morning upon the high hills of dorthumian say on said enderth say who art now but a wise woman alone an age that shall not touch him has already set winter's gray and thy hair but say not thou to me for so he once did i was young and i looked on his flame and now i am old and lost he was young and his flame leaped towards me but he turned away and he is young still do candles pity moths or moths candles when the wind blows them out said feenrod adanath i tell thee i can are the sharp flame loved thee for thy sake now he will never take the hand of any bride of his own kindred and live alone to the end remembering the morning in the hills of dorthonion but too soon in the north wind his flame will go out foresight is given to the eldar in many things not far off though seldom of joy and i say to thee thou shalt live long in the order of your kind and he will go forth before thee and he will not wish to return then andreth stood up and stretched her hands to the fire then why did he turn away why leave me while i still had a few good years to spend another great turn of phrase is do candles pity moths or moths candles when the wind blows them out awesome pros so here is where finrad brings up his brother's love for andreth they met they fell in love she wanted the relationship to continue but he turned away and as we'll see he did so without explaining why he ghosted her then rod points out that ignore has lived alone ever since and we know that andreth has also lived alone they both have given up on love as did fenrod and remember i mentioned finrad's gift of foresight here we see it again he has foreseen that ignore will die before andreth and once in the west even if he is reborn he will not return to middle earth and indeed eigenor is slain in the battle of sudden flame shortly before an elderly andreth passes away finrod may or may not have shared that information with his brother although he did share the vision of his own demise with galadriel but it's interesting that eigenor has another 50 years max to live and again there's no guarantee that he'll ever leave the halls of mandos the doom of mandos basically says the noldor will not be reborn that's your curse so this is it for him he basically has a human length lifespan left and yet he turns away from a chance at happiness why this is what andrew asks why did he turn away finrod attempts to provide the answer alas said finrod i fear the truth will not satisfy thee the eldar have one kind and ye another and each judges the others by themselves until they learn as do few this is time of war andreth and in such days the elves do not wed or bear child but prepare for death or for flight i ignore has no trust nor have i in this siege of angband that it will last long and then what will become of this land if his heart ruled he would have wished to take thee and flee far away east or south forsaking his kin and thine love and loyalty hold him to this what of thee to thine thou has said thyself that there is no escape by flight within the bounds of the world for one year one day of the flame i would have given all kin youth and hope itself adenath as i am said andreth that he knew said fenrod and he withdrew and did not grasp what lay to his hand elder as he is for such barters are paid for in anguish that cannot be guessed until it comes and in ignorance rather than encourage the eldar judge that they are made so fenrod says that this is a time of war and elves do not wed in a time of war well that sounds pretty simple cut and dried what could ignore do a rule's a rule but is it remember when this is happening the year 410 andreath and ignore probably met around the year 380. ish okay in the year 60 the good guys were at their zenith they trounced morgoth in dagger aglareb the glorious battle which began the siege of angband the year 60. yes there were some lesser battles fought after that the last of which was when the elves defeated a young glaurung sending him scurrying back to angband in the year 260. that began a period of time known as the long piece over a hundred years into the long piece is when ignore meets andreth as i mentioned before this is the most peaceful era in the first age i get it finra and ignore don't think it'll last but by that logic there was no time any elf in middle earth could get married in the first age it sounds like an excuse yeah we're in the middle of the long piece but there's no guarantees so let's not see each other ever again and finra throws a dig at andreth with that last line andreth says i would have given up everything even hope itself to be with ignore for even a short time and finra's response is essentially that sentiment is spoken in ignorance rather than courage in other words you're misguided and i ignore saved you a lot of pain which is pretty harsh but i think cleanrod senses this is not a compelling argument for why ignore left andreth so he offers up another reason nayarnath if any marriage can be between our kindred and thine then it shall be for some high purpose of doom brief it will be and hard at the end yay the least cruel fate that could befall would be that death should soon end it but the death is always cruel for men said anderth i would not have troubled him when my short youth was spent i would not have hobbled as a hag after his bright feet when i could no longer run beside him maybe not said finrad so you feel now but do you think of him he would not have run before thee he would have stayed at thy side to uphold thee then pity thou wouldst have had in every hour pity inescapable he would not have had thee so shamed andreth adenith the life and love of the eldar dwells much in memory and we if not ye would rather have a memory that is fair but unfinished than one that goes on to a grievous end now will he ever remember thee in the sun of morning and that last evening by the water of i lewin in which he saw thy face mirrored with a star caught in thy hair ever until the north wind brings the night of his flame yea and after that sitting in the house of mandos in the halls of awaiting until the end of arda and what shall i remember said she and when i go to what halls shall i come to a darkness in which even the memory of the sharp flame shall be quenched even the memory of rejection that at least so fenrod sums up his feelings on any elven human pairing by saying the least cruel fate that could befall would be that death should soon end it i'm getting a strong vibe that fien rod is not a fan of elves marrying humans and andruth has a great response the end is always cruel for men in other words yeah someone will eventually die and their partner will be grief-stricken so in her case she's just been told by finrod that she'll be the one grieving over ignore's body and she accepts that outcome because of course you do it's just a concept that goes right over finra's head fenron is now metaphorically in the corner just getting pummeled in this debate so in desperation he brings out what i consider to be his weakest argument yet hey ignore would have pitied you as you got older and he would have stayed by your side which is just terrible for some reason again remember he's gonna die before she does and then he says now will he ever remember thee and the son of morning in other words wouldn't it be better if he just carried a memory of you and your youth instead of remembering old you like what this makes l sound very petty and trivial and again andreth comes back with a nice jab and what shall i remember her point is that she's not going to the halls of mandos her memories might be all erased even the memory of the sharp flame shall be quenched even the memory of rejection that at least bang knockout at least when i die i won't remember your brother's completely unwarranted rejection so the debate is now over in my opinion there's a clear winner and finra drops the defense of his brother knowing that he and andreath will likely never speak again he offers a very touching farewell darkness fell in the room he took her hand in the light of the fire wither go you she said north away he said to the swords and the siege and the walls of defense that yet for a while in beleriand rivers may run clean leave spring and the birds build their nests air night comes will he be there bright and tall and the wind in his hair tell him tell him not to be reckless not to seek danger beyond need i will tell him said finrod but i might as well tell thee not to weep he is a warrior andreth and a spirit of wrath in every stroke that he deals he sees the enemy who long ago did thee this hurt but you are not ferrara whether you go may you find light await us there my brother and me i particularly appreciate the line whether you go may you find light it's a very moving sentiment and i know i've been tough on fenrod in this debate but he is just doing what he thinks is right and he's now off to join the seas for another 45 years before the battle of sudden flame from this text i think that prior to this conversation with andres fenrod and likely his brother are convinced that elven-human relationships can't work primarily because of this mortality issue but i think anderson passion words change his mind at the battle of sudden flame andrew's nephew barahir saves fenrod's life and finrod swears an oath to aid him and his family ten years later barry here's son baron andrus great nephew comes to fenrod's court requesting aid silmarillion chapter 19. thus baron came before king finrad feligund and feligan knew him needing no ring to remind him of the kin of beor and a bearer here behind closed doors they sat and bearing told of the death of barahir and of all that had befallen him in doriath and he wept recalling luthien and their joy together but felikan heard his tale in wonder and disquiet and he knew that the oath he had sworn was come upon him for his death as long before he had foretold to galadriel here is a fitting ending to this debate fienrod is honoring his oath knowing it will result in his death in order to help andrus great nephew baron from the world of men pull off a seemingly impossible task take a silmaril from morgoth in order to marry the love of his life the daughter of the elven king luthien he's prepared to lay down his life in service to the first elven human marriage and this is very much in the time of war by the way so just to complete finrad's arc here is the passage in which he saves baron's life at the cost of his own this is also from the silmarillion chapter 19. in the pits of sauron baron and feligan lay and all their companions were now dead but sauron purposed to keep felligan to the last for he perceived that he was an oldo of great might and wisdom and he deemed that in him lay the secret of their errand but when the wolf came for barren feligand put forth all his power and burst his bonds and he wrestled with the werewolf and slew it with his hands and teeth yet he himself was wounded to the death then he spoke to baron saying i go now to my long rest in the timeless halls beyond the seas and the mountains of amman it will be long here i am seen among the knoll door again and it may be that we shall not meet a second time in death or life for the fates of our kindreds are apart farewell he died then in the dark in toll in gaurav whose great tower he himself had built thus king finrad and most beloved of the house of fenway redeemed his oath but baron mourned beside him in despair dramatic emotional scene and again i think it's fitting that one of andres kin is mourning over the body of one of ignore's kin so the tragedy of the relationship that never was between andreth and ignore starts a ripple effect that leads to change and while yes as fenrod said there will be grief and sorrow in the elven human relationships to come including baron and luthien there will be great joy and love as well and those relationships will stand as a symbol uniting elves and men for ages to come so there you have it my humble entry on love and friendship thanks to all the commenters who requested this topic and happy talking reading day everyone make sure you check out the rest of the videos in the token reading day playlist thanks again bye you

Channel: Dork Lords

Views: 4,160

Keywords: dorklords, dork lords, tolkien, tolkien reading day, aegnor, andreth, lotr, lord of the rings

Id: DlsdMcMLq3k

Length: 26min 11sec (1571 seconds)

Published: Thu Mar 24 2022