Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth: A Colloquial Summary

welcome back in this video i will be summarizing and explaining a very interesting essay on the nature of elves and men it's titled athrabeth finrod andreth which means the debate of finrod and andreth you can find this essay in the book called morgoth's ring the tenth in the twelve book series titled the history of middle-earth compiled and edited by christopher tolkien j.r.r tolkien wrote this piece after the publication of the lord of the rings and it concerns two characters in the first age who have a philosophical conversation so these two characters are finrod the son of finarfin an older brother of galadriel and andreth a middle-aged wise woman of the house of baor she is actually the great aunt of beren and this conversation takes place in balerion during the first age more specifically during the siege of angbond that period of 400 years of relative peace when the noldor keep morgoth at bay tolkien states that this piece of writing is quote an example of the kind of thing that inquiring minds on either side the elvish or the human must have said to one another after they became acquainted unquote in other words of course philosopher men and elves would have wound up discussing their natures with each other at some point or another now before we start let's look at a couple important vocabulary words since this debate is about the nature of the fates of elves and men of course we're going to see discussion about body and soul the term for body is roa and the term for soul is feya so every incarnate being in arda has a heroia and a feya that's elves and men and just a refresher the word arda refers to the world in which all of tolkien's stories take place he describes it as somewhat like our solar system and the earth within that solar system is called imbar but kind of confusingly the term arda is used interchangeably with earth so you should really just think about it as a physical place in the universe the universe being known as aya and eru the one in other words god lives outside of aya he lives outside of the physical universe so just keep this in mind as we go along fienrod really enjoys getting to know the other peoples of middle earth especially humans in fact he's the first elf to have ever come across men after they come over the blue mountains and we know that these people he meets come from the house of beor we see this in the silmarillion as such he has a special place in his heart for them he likes to visit them often especially andreth who is very wise and knowledgeable about the lore and legends of men and more ready to share that history with finrod than the other wise men are and she is known among the elves as cylinder or wise heart in the year 409 of the first age finrod is a guest in the house of bellamir a kinsman of andreth who also lives there and he comments to her offhand that the swift passing of men's lives is very sad to him mentioning the various generations of men of the house of baor whom he had already known and seen die and she replies that men used to pass away even more quickly before they came to belarion so that's at least one good thing a little lifting of the shadow the shadow being morgoth but finrod is curious how morgoth is connected to men's short lives and he goes on to state that since men are children of eru therefore their fate to die comes from him there you go end of story well not so fast because andreth replies ugh you elves all say the same thing we're children of eru and we die so therefore we're meant to die be real you guys just look down at us as weak pitiable creatures yes some elves think like that but not me we don't speak lightly when we say you men or fellow children of eru as such you're hroar and feyar are more similar to ours than anyone else on the earth therefore you are our kin we believe your swift passing to be a part of your nature and because we're kin this grieves us even more than when a plant or animal dies don't you guys believe that death is a part of your nature no among the lore of the wise comes a voice out of the distant darkness of our past telling us that men didn't always die and death is not part of our true nature morgoth's malice brought death to men and that's why we're mortal i can believe that morgoth's power in middle earth has helped shorten men's lives and weaken their bodies heck you see it with us too elves who live here and those who have come back from aman all have diminished health and stature that's what happens when you live in a marred world everything fades more quickly no that's not what i meant you guys have such a one-track mind elves or elves men are men and the preordained order is like that of lords looking down on the lowly the mighty first comers and the weak followers no no no no the wise speak of something different they say we were never supposed to experience death but rather it was imposed upon us and that's why we fear death and try to escape it but i don't think we can escape it in this world not even if we were in amman we ran all the way to belarion trying to escape the shadow only to find it here waiting for us these words are strange and terrible i can imagine that men have suffered some great hurt if this is what the wise among you believe but trust me we do not get a kick out of you guys dying the only one who would say otherwise is morgoth watch out for his lies you seem to think he imposed death on you and you talk about his shadow and death itself is the same exact thing in escaping a shadow you escape death this isn't true if men's mortality only came from him then why is there death among other creatures in this world as well nah i think the word death would otherwise be good but morgoth has tainted it to mean something evil it's easy for you to say that death can be good how would you know anything about it you're never going to die oh no we actually can die and we fear it too we've been dropping like flies ever since we came back here to wage war with morgoth on behalf of everyone not just for our own benefit we're trying to prevent his shadow from spreading oh really i heard you guys just came here to get your precious jewels back or maybe that was just the reasoning of the sons of feanor anyway i'm gonna ask you again what do you know of death because when you guys die quote unquote you don't actually leave the world you get to be reborn again eventually but us nope when we die it's lights out forever and it's not supposed to be that way okay fair enough you say our death sucks but at least we can come back whereas your death is an end without any hope of coming back and making things right right yes but there's another difference too your deaths are just a blip on the radar that you can avoid if you're fortunate strong or clever but our deaths inescapable no matter what it's like a hunter that always catches his prey whether or not that prey is lucky or unlucky wise or foolish and being thus pursued men have no hope we have no certainty or knowledge just fears or vague impressions but hope even the wise barely talk about that maybe we'll discuss it soon sure we can but hang on so far as i can tell the biggest difference between men and elves is the speed of our deaths but you think elves can't experience inescapable death that's not true arda will come to an end someday along with all creation we elves are bound to the world body and soul so when it goes so do we lights out for us too and we don't have any certainty of our fate beyond that either just like you guys and no one talks to us about hope oh i didn't know that but at least at least our hunter is much slower you would say true but i don't know if that makes things any better at the end of the day so let me get this straight you don't believe that men were ever supposed to die like you do now how did this happen if you are indeed correct you say it's by the malice of morgoth but you ignore the fact that he's marred and diminished the entire world you seem to think he did it to men specifically like he has it out for you or something that is correct yes yikes then that is something quite dreadful i mean morgoth is mighty believe me i've seen him in action but never has it crossed elves minds that he could fundamentally change the nature of the children of eru like you describe if he can then he's more powerful than we could ever imagine and all the efforts of the noldor are in vain even valinor is in trouble if that's the case aha didn't i say that you don't know about death and now the moment you actually have to think about it you start panicking we men know that morgoth is the lord of this world and trying to fight him will always be folly and fruitless hey watch what you say don't confuse aru with morgoth the only lord of this world is aru who made it and his vice region is manue sure evil things come from morgoth but do you honestly think he's powerful enough to doom the deathless to death no i don't believe your tale only eru is powerful enough to make death a part of your fate so let me ask you what did you men do in your distant past to anger eru so much that he would change your nature from immortality to mortality we don't talk about that with those of other race but even the wise disagree at any rate whatever happened long ago we've been trying to get away from it ever since i'm just curious aren't there any tales of your days before death even though you won't share them with outsiders maybe perhaps the valar no the valar how should i know your valar don't care about us we didn't get a special summons watch it you don't know what you're talking about i've walked among them and seen the light of the trees don't talk about them with disrespect words like that come from morgoth and hasn't it ever occurred to you that men may have put themselves out of the valar's reach long ago or better yet that the valar could never govern you in the first place because you are masters of yourselves only under eru and no one else jeez if you're not going to tell me what you guys did to earn death then just be careful about placing the blame because there's nothing i can do to help you figure things out anyway let's switch gears the original state of men before death do you mean you guys were more like us no our legends only concern dying and not dying none of that stuff about ending when the world ends we didn't even know about the eldar until very recently oh okay well to be honest i thought that when you said men weren't supposed to die you were just kind of jealous of us that's obviously not the case but wait a minute men did come across elves farther east not eldar but elves nonetheless surely you guys were mortal by then and talked about the different fates of our two peoples we already had our lore by the time we met them and we believed then as we do now that in our beginning we were born never to die by this we mean born to life everlasting without any shadow of any end that's a really strange nature really many of the wise believe no living thing was originally supposed to die yeah elves don't believe that it doesn't make sense and here's why number one you said that men once had imperishable bodies not bound by the limits of arda and yet your bodies come from arda and must live in it to survive number two you're basically saying although you may not realize it that from the very beginning your hroar and feyar were out of harmony and yet we elves believe that harmony of bonnie and soul is essential to the true unmarred nature of all children of eru yes i see her point on the first one the wise have their own theory on that but the second one please explain okay so we've been observing you guys for three generations now and here's what we've come up with your feyar and the elves they are are similar but not the exact same your souls don't seem to be confined to arda like ours arda is not their home now of course you guys love this world just like us but i think we love it in different ways let me put it this way men are like visitors to a strange land everything is new and interesting and therefore lovable but elves are like the inhabitants of that land everything is familiar and therefore precious so men are like guests you've hit the nail on the head well if we're guests which lands do we know as our own you tell me the elves say of men that when you guys look at something or study it it's not for the sake of the thing in and of itself but rather to discover something else and if you love something it's only because it reminds you of something else much more dear but what are you comparing it to where are these other more wonderful things men are of arda so where does this memory come from of better things somewhere else it's funny you should say that because i feel like i'm reminded of something even though i don't understand it you know the men say of elves that you know no weariness you never seem to get tired of anything but with us if we see or experience something enough we get bored with it but what do you think why do we grow tired of things is that because the shadow made us do that or is that also part of our nature the shadow may have darkened your unrest and made you get weary more swiftly but i say it has always been a part of your nature this restlessness but this brings me back to my second point before regarding the disharmony of your horror and fear children of eru all have a mind and body that are meant to be together so that's why men are interesting your souls are just guests here in arda and we'll leave it eventually and yet your bodies come from arda and must remain here i wouldn't want a body that will live beyond arda's existence and yet that's exactly what you claim that men's bodies were originally supposed to be truly immortal but i feel like a truly immortal soul would much rather leave the body eventually so as to get out of arda and be released or maybe even return to its true home beyond the confines of this world if you look at it that way then death doesn't seem so bad but you don't believe that do you no i don't that sounds like contempt for the body i don't think that the severance of our bodies and souls is according to our true nature talk about disharmony it's natural for the soul to be immortal and abandon the body to die then that would mean that we men have a heroin fear not united in love the body would be more like a chain or an imposition rather than a gift if this were our nature from the beginning then it must have come from morgoth but i think that men are like you in that we only live in the right way when our bodies and souls are together therefore death which separates them is a disaster okay this amazes me because if what you say is true that your bodies and souls must stay together then it only follows that when your souls leave the world they must take the bodies with them and both will exist beyond time and the universe itself thus arda will be released from the taint of morgoth and even from the limits set forth by eru in the vision mighty indeed did aru make men so what a great disaster is the change in their original nature i wonder if the souls of men compare arda with a vision of what it was supposed to be where everything lives forever or maybe there's another world that's like this one but better i don't know we men are kind of just preoccupied with thinking about death okay so here's what i'm thinking men aren't supposed to be the followers to us no instead they're supposed to be the heirs and fulfillers who heal the marring of ardas agents of the magnificence of eru to enlarge the music and surpass the vision of the world instead of arda unmarred it'll be arda healed bigger and better yeah i wonder if the valar saw any inkling of this or maybe arrow kept it a secret for later this is so cool alright so when is this supposed to happen i don't know i'm talking about a vision of men as the deliverers of the elves even though we've been talking about death as a separation of body and soul my idea of elvish death has always been that one's arda ends our bodies and souls end as well but this vision of ardor remade we elves could live there forever and walk with men our deliverers what would you say to us i can only guess maybe we would tell you stories from the past from arda that once was and you guys would finally feel at home in the world like you really own it you would then know what we are reminded of the days when we first met and our hands touched in the dark the memories of elves in this world are a burden to us as the ages pass but an artery made they would be wonderful but we're talking about this future as if it's for certain it doesn't change the fact that men are diminished now and that darkness lies before us there is no ardor remade right now so you have no hope an expectation of good to come in the future based on our experiences of the possibility that good can happen no we don't that is one type of hope we call it amdir or looking up but there's another kind of hope estel we call it meaning trust it comes from our nature rather than expectations based on our experiences if we are children of aru then he won't allow himself to be parted from us for long not even by the enemy that is the basis of estelle all of his original designs were for our joy you don't have amdir but what about estelle maybe but don't you see that it's shaky at best because of our wound of death isn't morgoth still lord of the world don't even say it in question form it can't be unsaid don't you get it we walk in despair even though we have just a little hope of healing of escaping death someday is this estelle mere flight in a dream from the only thing we know which is darkness and death mere flight in a dream in dream many desires are revealed desire might be the last flicker of estelle but you're confusing dream with hope and waking with belief you're insinuating that the former is doubtful and the latter is more sure are men asleep when they speak of escape and healing i don't know how or when will we be healed and what type of beings will we become after that and what happens to those of us now who die before the healing begins only people of the old hope have any idea of an answer who are they those men who think morgoth can be defeated but defying him doesn't undo the damage he's done what was this hope exactly they say that eru himself will enter arda and heal men and all the marring that has ever happened they say this legend has been around since men have existed do you believe this too how can i it's so outrageous i mean forget about the men who serve morgoth most men just view the world as a battle between the equal powers of light and dark but of course you would say no that's just manway and morgoth but eru is above them all but isn't aru just the greatest among the valar a great god among gods but again yes you would say oh no no eru is one and alone without peers he created the universe and he's beyond it well yeah i would and so would the valar except one but who do you think is more likely to lie those who make themselves humble or he that exalts himself i get it but i don't understand this hope how can eru enter something he's made and yet be beyond measure greater than the thing itself he's already in it and outside of it but sure in different modes okay eru can be in the universe that he created but going into arda he's so great he would shatter it or maybe all of creation itself i have no idea that's way beyond me but you're assuming that because aru is measureless then he's too big for arda he's all powerful i'm sure he'd figure out a way to make it work and i honestly can't see another way to heal the world without him coming into it because he wouldn't just let morgoth completely take over and win out in the end he'd put a stop to it because think about it even if morgoth were thrust out of arda his shadow and poison would still remain to multiply so if any sort of total healing of that were to occur it would have to come from eru so are you telling me you believe in this old hope don't ask me that yet because this is the first that i'm hearing of it the elves have never heard of this kind of hope until now and this news comes through you it might lift our hearts a bit maybe it was preordained that we elves and men should bring good news to one another that you and i can speak to each other across the gulf that divides our kindreds so that we should not be wholly afraid across the gulf that divides our kindreds is there no bridge except mere words there may be for some i don't know the gulf is our difference in fates for of all the creatures in middle earth we are closest and most alike to one another but it's dangerous to cross a gulf set by doom and for those who do they won't find joy on the other side but griefs of both but why do you say mere words haven't we drawn nearer to one another by speaking words but for you that doesn't provide much comfort does it i didn't ask for comfort what do i need it for because of the doom of men that you experience as a woman don't you think i know is ignore not my brother i cannot the sharp flame swift and eager it hasn't been that many years since you first met and your hands touched in this darkness you were just a maiden then brave and eager in the morning upon the high hills of dorthonion ok say it who am i now but a lonely wise woman and the age that will never touch him has already turned my own hair gray but don't speak to me so familiarly as he once did oh i see oh my dear andreth that is the bitterness that has colored your speech this entire evening if i could speak comfort to you then you would deem it lordly and pitying coming from me one who sits across the gulf yeah but what else can i say but remind you of the hope that you yourself just informed me of i'd never say it was my hope and even if it were so i would still cry why do we love you why do you love us if you do and yet set the gulf between us we didn't make ourselves and therefore we elves didn't set this gulf no we're not lordly in this but compassionate and full of pity i know you don't like that word but i mean it in love not pride oh don't talk to me of pity i don't want it i was young and i looked on his flame and now i am old and lost he was young and his flame leapt towards me but he turned away and he is young still do candles pity moths or do moths pity candles when the wind blows them out andreth i tell you truly that i ignore loved you and for your sake he will never get married as long as he lives but live alone till the end remembering the morning in the hills of dorthonion but in the north wind his flame will go out all too soon i have this foresight and i can see that you will live long in the order of your kind but he will die before you do and he will not wish to return then why did he turn away why leave me while i still had some good years left to live i know i know but andreth listen to me this is wartime and during war the elves never get married nor have children but instead prepare for death or flight neither i ignore nor i believe this siege will last for very long and then what will become of beleriand trust me if he had his way and could follow his heart he would take you far away from here forsaking his family and friends as well as yours but love and loyalty keep him here can't the same be said for you and besides didn't you say that it's impossible to escape death in this world anyway for one year one day of the flame i would have given all kin youth and hope itself mortal woman that i am he knew that and he withdrew and didn't grasp what was at hand elf he is because such trades are made in ignorance rather than courage and paid for in anguish no if any marriage is to occur between our two kindreds then it's for some high purpose of doom and destiny brief it would be and hard at the end with the last cruel fate being death that ends it but death is always cruel for men and i wouldn't have troubled him once i grew old i wouldn't have hobbled after him like some old hag when i could no longer run beside him alright you say that now but think of it from his point of view he wouldn't have kept running ahead of you he would have stayed at your side to help you and pitied you until the end he could never shame you like that andreth the life and love of the elves dwells mostly in memory and we would rather have a good memory of something unfinished then see it to its sad end now he will always remember you and the sun of the morning and that last evening by the water of i lean in which he saw your face mirrored with a star caught in your hair he would remember this when the north wind blows out his flame and after that when he sits in the halls of mandos until the end of the world and what shall i remember when i die what hall shall i go to to a darkness where my memory of the flame will be erased we elves don't have any healing words for such thoughts but do you wish that men and elves had never met is the light of the flame of no worth even now do you believe yourself to have been scorned do away with that thought for it comes from the darkness if i can at least make it clear that you were not then our conversation has not been in vain farewell where are you going now away north to the swords and the siege and the walls of defense so that for a while at least balerion will be defended from the night will he be there bright and tall and the wind in his hair tell him not to be reckless or to seek danger needlessly i'll tell him but i may as well tell you not to weep he's a warrior and a spirit of wrath in every stroke that he deals he sees the enemy who long ago did you this hurt but you are not for arda whither you go may you find light await us there my brother and me you

Channel: Ælfwine's Road

Views: 4,175

Keywords: Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth, Debate of Finrod and Andreth, Morgoth’s Ring, The History of Middle-earth, Tolkien, summary, explanation, synopsis

Id: uBoh2rXKeyU

Length: 29min 9sec (1749 seconds)

Published: Wed May 18 2022