'Like teenagers': Shock Prince Harry and Meghan Markle revelations in Valentine Low's Courtiers book

Hello and welcome to a very special episode  of Palace confidential and it's been a year   of extraordinarily anticipated Royal books  but none more so than the one written by my   guest today during his time as Royal correspondent  for the Times Valentine Lowe has broken a number   of Royal stories including that the palace was  investigating claims of bullying made by staff   Against The Duchess of Sussex his new book called  courtiers the hidden power behind the crown looks   at the fascinating position occupied by those who  work for the royal family and how they shape what   goes on Valentine is with me now welcome thank you  for being here with us today thank you for having   me on we have so much to discuss including your  behind the scenes account of Mexican among other   things but before we get into it tell us where  did the idea for the book come from it came from   Megan's interview with Oprah Winfrey when she  spoke about so something good came with that   exactly when she spoke about the institution  she contrasted the institution with the family   uh and basically was having a dig at the people  who worked there the men in Gray suits as Diana   used to call them um implying that really a lot of  what went wrong in her time the royal family was   down to the people who worked behind the scenes  the palace advisors the Penny Gray suits and the   idea came up well let's have a look at them who  are they what do they do and are they as bad as   they assume and do you think that it was um  that interview with Oprah that meant that a   lot of people you spoke to felt aggrieved enough  to to speak up and get their side across I think   they felt that um it was a valid exercise  to to explain what they did because no one's   ever had a serious look at who these people  are and what they do and it's very easy to   caricature them as the men in Gray suits um sort  of untrustworthy Machiavellian scheming Bunch uh   and actually a lot of them are very public  spirited and trying to do a decent job and   what who are they what kind of people are they  you know from your book and from descriptions   from various members of the royal family they  seem to sort of like be part staff part friend   part relative how how do they get that balance  right in those jobs it's very difficult because   you're doing a job that's both professional  and personal um and the thing of being it's   very interesting just to go back in history a  bit um there was someone called lord Stamford   and who worked for the royal family for ages and  ended up being George V's private secretary and   he died still in post in in his 80s and when he  died George V said that his loss is irreparable   and Queen Mary said that George was like a child  who'd lost a dear Nanny it was extraordinary that   was the sort of closeness of the relationship  but they do have to be professional   um but they do also they can become almost like  a friend and one very interesting example of that   was a song called Jamie louder Pinkerton who was  William and Harry's first private secretary and he   would he would always have said that while working  for them he was not a friend he was an advisor he   was a professional and all the courtiers I spoke  to all absolutely adamant they're not friends but   by the time Jamie finished working for me he had  become a friend of Williams he was um his son was   a page boy at their wedding uh Jamie is Godfather  to Prince George and there's no doubt that Jamie   and I think partly this is a function of him  having been there when William and Harry were   relatively young so in a way he kind of young  adults he saw them kind of growing into their   roles as role as as members of the royal family um  and yeah he became a friend it sounds to me like   it must be one of the most all-consuming Blurred  Lines duties do you think that you mentioned   that this very close friend Jamie left is there a  just an inevitable shelf life in these jobs where   you just can't stand it anymore uh I think there  can be a shelf life it can be very difficult and   um we're seeing that right now with uh sir Edward  young who was who worked for the Buckingham Palace   for a long time worked for the queen uh ended up  as the Queen's private secretary he's now staying   on for only for a few months because sir Clive  alderton the king's private secretary worked   with him when he was Prince of Wales he's going  to be the number one guy and basically sir Edward   is going to do the Handover so that's an example  of it being a short shelf life but some of them   stay there for years and in fact sir Clive has  been there for a long time he had a stint as uh   Prince Charles's Foreign Affairs advisor  essentially became Deputy private secretary   they went off to become ambassador to Morocco and  then came back as his principal private secretary   he's one of the longest serving private  secretaries for Charles and I think he will   be there for the duration now you said that um  Diana used to sort of like I rollingly refer to   men in Gray suits but there doesn't seem to be  an enormous amount of women is that fair it is   absolutely fair I mean I mean there are women but  um notice Charles Prince Charles now the King has   never had a woman private secretary and principal  private secretary ever he's had about 10 I think   Prince William who has done what he can to  modernize how he runs the household and has really   tried to make it a bit more inclusive he has never  had a woman uh as principal private secretary said   yeah and don't get me started on the lack of  ethnic minorities uh yes well that's another   interesting thing isn't it it's a pretty pale male  stale environment but do you think it is there I'm   being cheeky with this but is it just that King  Charles can't bear the idea of being yelling   at a woman it's my he's like you know he's much  more likely to feel comfortable losing his temper   well well he he does yell a bit I mean in the  description of saunas I spoke to he goes to from   naught to 60 in a Flash well we've seen haven't  we yeah we see him with the pen yeah but he I   think he recovers quite quickly and it's I don't  think it's necessarily aimed at people personally   um it's aimed at situations um but he does does  get frustrated I did not like the shouted woman   um I'm not so sure about that there was someone  called Sally Osman who was his communication   secretary for a while um and he welcomed her you  know she was the new thing and then within a week   um he lost his temper and later he said someone  else you know he was very worried that he he   might put Sally off already after a new week  you may as well know what you're getting in for   but yeah but what do you think do you think the  courtiers have in their ways shaped the kind of   King that Charles will be I think they probably  they've shaped the kind of King he'll be but also   they've reflected it I mean it's very interesting  the different court is the difference of private   secretaries has had different times of Life have  kind of reflected who Charles was so there was   a time when he was very much about setting up  his charity as he was the prince for the social   conscience and and the successful advisors from  that era were those who were very much in tune   with that and the unsuccessful ones and they were  answered six unsuccessful ones were the ones who   didn't really kind of believe in Charles's Mission  and the way he did but later Charles moved on to   different things that he became he wanted to  cast himself more as a global Statesman and   and it was the job of the people around him to  help shape that and reflect that and advance that   um what about Charles's younger life do you see  parallels with some of the frustrations that you   talk about with Charles when he was making his  way as a young prince and sort of like looking at   shaping his future as the king is there  any parallel with that and his son Harry   yeah I think that there are parallels um Charles  was faced when young with a long period of being   the heir to the throne and he wanted to do more  than some previous Prince of Wales his have done   which was they basically had a nice time yeah why  you wouldn't do that he wanted to do some good it   was fantastic and he had this idea of helping  disadvantages Youth and that eventually became   the prince's trust which is a phenomenally  successful charity and has helped more than   a million young people and it's brilliant I  mean the list of people he's helped us is long   but there were there were some people within  monkey in Palace who were not helpful at that   time and I think Charles got frustrated and yeah  in different ways um Harry has been frustrated and   and Harry has had a similar drive to Charles  in the sense that you know he Harry is aware   that he has he felt he had a limited shelf life  I found that fascinating because look at he could   absolutely have an amazing Legacy with things like  the Invictus games why does that have to come with   a shelf life I know but he felt that people Royals  become if they're not on the track to become   Monarch they become less relevant as they grow  older as they move down the line of succession   and as younger more glamorous more interesting  roles come along after all the Duke of cat who   these days could have even knows who the Jew who  Kent was but he was once something like an eighth   in line to the throne but um so Harry felt that  by the time Prince George was going to be 18 or   so no one would care about Harry so he had this  relatively small number of years which he could   make an impact and he was very keen to make an  impact quickly which is why um the Invictus games   he he did it fantastically swiftly he from having  the idea to it being realized was just one year I   mean his Breakneck speed that's incredible  but it does seem In fairness like there is   a certain amount of culture of no matter how  powerful you are you could be the king the   Queen the Prince of Wales but there is this whole  system that you come up against within that within   the walls of those palaces yeah there is a system  but there's another way of looking at it the the   that you're there as part of an institution uh and  the queen was always very firm that the long-term   security the stability of the institution was What  mattered above uh anyway personal needs or desires   well let's move that brings us nicely on to prince  Andrew um God bless him car crash interviews bad   choices do you think if he'd had better courtiers  things would have been different uh he had a very   good advisor in some in some respects in the form  of a woman called Amanda thirsk who's very sharp   very dedicated incredibly hard working is this the  woman who organized the news night interview yes   as well so she she did she did a lot of good  for Andrew I mean she helped him when he was   um setting up his pitch at Palace thing which  you know at a time when his reputation was not   terrific it gave him some kind of validation  but but um she had a blind spot about the   media she didn't really understand the media  and when Epstein Epstein could revived itself   um the accusations surfaced again because the  taxation has been around for some number of years   um and then when he was arrested for the  second time and when he died they they   resurfaced interesting there's no new accusation  against Andrew the evidence against him and what   Virginia was saying hadn't changed there's  nothing new there but somehow the pressure   the pressure was renewed and it wasn't going away  and um she thought well maybe we just have to do   an interview but the problem was that Andrew had  formed a few years a couple of years or so earlier   he'd given an interview to the Sunday Times and  it was an absolute car crash it was disaster he   came across as a fool who wasn't master of his  brief couldn't answer the most basic questions   even questions which he should have been prepared  for and therefore in the light of that the news   night interview was really a dodgy thing to do and  even if you decided you had to do it you should   have prepared him within an inch of his life  absolutely and you should have prepared him to uh   a make sure you say something to express sympathy  about the women who've been victims of Epstein   and also you should have removed all those  incredibly foolish remarks about sweating and   pizza expressing working I mean Daft stuff which  anyone with any public relations now would realize   would play extremely badly but they just they  didn't have the media experience and they weren't   listening to a sufficient outside voices to to  be warned it's fascinating isn't it but Andrew   you talk about also work with Charles to try to  get rid of another big name Sir Christopher guys   um is it fair to say that often the courtiers  are simply victims of family feuds and end up   as collateral in in that with their careers I  don't think it happens very often I mean and   Christopher guide was he Christopher guy used to  be very close to Charles I mean they used to have   private meetings in the summer up in Scotland  where they discuss big issues in the long term   and Christopher guy was incredibly clever a  chap upstairs it could be a clever chap uh   and and Charles admired his intellect but there  was a time when Christopher wanted to um merge   the sort of Palace Communications Empires and a  couple long story short uh Charles thought it was   a bad idea and thought he was trying to Nick or  defang his own press office and Charles basically   became rather suspicious and less enamored of  Christopher after that and then later after the   death of Philip uh Christopher guide made a speech  which was interpreted within Charles's household   as a bit of a takeover grab telling the role the  rest of the royal family what to do wow um and   Christopher ended up being ousted um essentially  because he crossed Charles and his household the   mental gymnastics that go on um the courtiers do  they ever get to tell off the Royals I understand   Fergie's had a dressing down yeah Fergie did have  nothing but but Fergie was on the way out by then   so it was safe she was already separated from  Andrew so I think they felt quite confident about   that yeah that's so interesting I mean William  seems to come out of your book as someone who has   a healthy relationship with his stuff um he loves  informality and he's very cautious about things   like background checks for donors and things  which was would be well advised in other courses   wouldn't it yeah yeah I mean the the informality  it's very interesting in the information the the   levels of formality and informality you know in  Charles's household when he was Prince of Wales   it was you know the first thing in the morning  it was you're all highness and so after that   and last thing at night is your old highness  uh and William there was none of that there   with his closest advisors who definitely be first  name terms um but but they they were cautious to   um call him Prince William and sir when they  were in company and there was a fascinating kind   of detail which I kind of love was in the very  early days it came when there was young adults   um he had a tiny team around them William had  a very very small team and it was very informal   they'd sort of share pizzas with their with  their advisors um but they would the advisors   would always get up when they came in the room and  William and Harry would always say no no please   don't get up and the next time they come to the  room they'd all get up because they believed that   they should get you this is how you can be treated  as a member of the royal family people are going   to get up and you come in the room and so these  these advisors thought we've got to get them used   to this you get them used to being a member of the  royal family and eventually after a while William   Harry just stopped saying please don't get up  they just came up they lost that battle oh my god   um one story that has long been discussed is Tiara  gate and you provide some clarity on this one yes   I mean from what I understand um the original  version of that story which surfaced suggested   there was a route about which Tiara uh Megan would  have for her wedding and I don't think that's the   case that's I mean that's wrong I mean she was  given by the queen a choice of tiaras she chose   one it's the one she wrote wore at the wedding and  that's all absolutely fine where the problem came   was a short while later was that she wanted to  have a fitting so it was for for her hair because   as you can imagine wearing a tiara and having your  head on for your wedding they're closely entwined   to you and we've all been there we've all been  there yeah anyway Megan's hairdresser was in town   I think he was based in Paris he was in town and  therefore she wanted a fitting and the problem was   that Angela Kelly who's the Queen's dresser and a  lot more beside who basically had the keys because   controlled access to this TR she wasn't around and  Megan was demanding Megan and Harry were demanding   that we have the fitting today and Angela said  it's Andrew Kelly said sorry I'm not available and   that caused a certain amount of um dissensioned  ranks you say yeah where you actually do paint   quite a detailed picture of the entrance and  eventual exit of Megan and Harry and the problems   seemed to start very early there didn't they  yeah I think I mean the problem started before   the wedding I mean there were there were a lot of  brows before the wedding about all sorts of things   not just the Tiara but the choir about the food  and there was a problem when um that could have the drip of in the drip of news stories before  the wedding you'd always have a dripping news   stories of Paris will put out little details about  the cake uh about the dress about the whatever   um to keep the media happy uh and somehow Megan  thought we ought to change that because it wasn't   suiting her for some reason uh and they had to  rip up plans and some poor woman was uh presented   an alternative plan and Megan was really unhappy  with this alternative plan and said to this woman   listen if there's anybody else I can get to do  this believe me I would that is my favorite quote   from the book it's just such a devastating thing  to say anything to say in front of other people   it's just extraordinary you know Samantha Cohen's  another one who has worked with the successes she   was very popular she's a very popular member of  the queen staff before she moved to work for them   what what was her experience of that I think Sam  who as you said it was very popular very highly   regard and go on well you know Harry knew her  well when she when she started telling you well   and liked her and she liked Harry uh and she's a  Sam is a great Problem Solver so she's incredibly   it's a can-do personality and um she just found  it really difficult I think she was asked to   do things which a private secretary wouldn't  normally be be asked to do and I think she was   treated harshly she was I think she was shouted  up by by Megan and possibly Harry I don't know   and you know she she's got broad chill of the  Sam but she I think she found it very difficult   she was said to have said that uh dealing with  them was like dealing with a couple of teenagers   yeah it's fascinating that's the thing and it  I think sometimes in our press it becomes all   about Megan's devourish Behavior but Harry was  capable of angry emails and strops as well yeah   I mean Harry who has a long track record of not  trusting the courtes from the other household   from Buckingham Palace or from Clarence House he  really had it in for uh sir Edward young Queen's   private secretary and Sir Clive Alston Charles's  private secretary and from from the accounts I've   been told used to send them incredibly rude emails  now a lot of you say that the staff called Megan   a narcissistic sociopath I mean that's quite  strong it is strong and they also they'd also   say we were played they you know how so they they  felt that um she always had an agenda to get out   um even before even before yeah and they they  had been devoted they'd really tried hard to   make it work uh and but they they had a rough  time and they they felt treated badly how do you   um feel about the success it was  having done all this research   um I think it's quite complex because I think  there was never what they wanted of what the royal   family really the Queen felt able but there was  no there was never going to be any common meeting   ground there were no compromise so in a sense I  think it was inevitable that they should leave but   the the tragedy was it was actually so acrimonious  it didn't have to be so accuronus now the Roth I   think the institution and the people who work  for them tried hard to show flexibility to   um have a different way of working you know  there was one one quarter senior culture   called Miguel head who had a meeting with Megan  before the wedding and said listen we can you   know there's no fixed way of you fulfilling this  role um we could we could talk let's let's craft   it yeah so they they were they were going after  they were and someone else David Manning former   ambassador to Washington who's their Foreign  Affairs advisor he cooked up this plan that   suggested they spent some time living in South  Africa uh did work in the end but it was a sort   of the point it was a big effort to try and show  flexibility to try imaginative ways of working   but where the institution went wrong is that  in the about the first year or so of their   marriage and in particular between January 2019  and about late summer Early Autumn of that year   that was the period when Megan and Harry  in particular Megan was deeply unhappy   and they were obviously frustrated and no one  no one really could have flight it up no one   had a big meeting which they sat down and said  listen this is going wrong let's talk about this   let's work out how we can solve it yeah and they  they didn't do that until it was too late I think   that was a failure on their part so yeah Harry  and Megan could be difficult I mean I didn't I   don't think there's any denying that but I don't  think the palace Rose to the occasion either   what do you think that the people you spoke to  would have wanted to achieve out of speaking to   you about about all of this if anything I think  what they wanted to achieve is say listen there's   there's another story here Megan has done a very  good job of portraying herself as a victim of   this cold unfeeling institution and and they're  saying actually it's more complicated than that if the sussex's legal team not yet that's rather  ominous yeah they know my email address watch this   space and you quote one Insider who believes that  ultimately Megan did Harry the greatest kindness   what is that yeah that was I think that's the  most possibly the most significant quote in the   whole book and what this birth this person who  knows Harry who doesn't really approve of what   Harry and Megan did but they said to me in a  way she did in the greatest kindness because   they knew that for the last couple of years  of his working life Harry was really unhappy   but they didn't know what to do about it but then  Megan came along and showed him a way out and in   that way possibly she did the greatest kindness  and I think there's a lot to be said for that   um fascinating well the reminder that Valentine  loans excellent book is called courtiers the   hidden power behind the crown and it's out now  published in the UK by headline you can click the   link below if you want to buy it that's all we  have time for on this special episode of Palace   confidential it but join us again for more Royal  News and Views next Thursday see you then bye-bye

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Keywords: prince harry, palace confidential, palace confidential daily mail, daily mail royals, daily mail royal family, royal family, queen, queen elizabeth, king charles, meghan markle netflix, meghan markle, meghan markle daily mail, royals news, royals latest, royal family news, royal photograph, prince harry book, prince harry news, valentine low, courtiers, tiaragate, royal wedding, prince harry staff, meghan markle shouting, megxit, prince andrew newsnight, exclusive, interview

Id: 1he1tN7_a1k

Length: 25min 24sec (1524 seconds)

Published: Tue Oct 11 2022