Key Differences Between Protestantism and Roman Catholicism

welcome to the table podcast where we discuss issues of God and culture brought to you by Dallas Theological Seminary welcome to the table we discuss issues of God and culture and our I'm Darrell Bock executive director for cultural engagement at the Hendricks Center and I have two very good friends and distinguished guests today to discuss our topic which is the difference between Protestantism and Roman Catholicism and to look a little bit at the history of the development of the church and how to think about that and on my left is Michael Siegel who teaches in the historical theology Department they keep changing the names on this and so you know it used to be systematics but now you've involved to storlock Studies and such a theological study see I just still don't get it right and then and then Scott Horrell who who's been here on campus how are you going to teach 18 years 18 years yeah you're you're yeah pushing pushing two decades that's pretty serious serious for sure so both professors and theological studies and and really I think we're going to have an enjoyable time discussing this so we'll just dive in as we think about the church probably the first question people might have is explain to me why we speak of Catholicism our catholicity if I can say it that way if you read the old Creed's you'll see the phrase catholicity which it's a word everybody uses every day and then and then you've got Roman Catholicism and you've got Protestant how where did where did all that come from what'swhat's the starting point for thinking about that that sounds like a history question it is it's a history question yeah the term Catholic is first year used in the early 2nd century Ignatius of Antioch uses it to describe the church as a whole and as opposed to a local congregation so Catholic means according to the whole so as you think of Christianity from east to west north to north to south all holding to the same basic Trinitarian confession of faith he uses the term Catholic and Christ himself is the head of the Catholic Church in that sense eventually then you just they start discussing the Catholic Church of Alexandria the Catholic Church of Antioch the Catholic Church of Rome indicating that we're all part this fraternity of Bishops who are all preaching the same thing teaching the same things and that continues on for a couple centuries eventually you get the Roman Catholic Church which ultimately is responsible for the most part planting the churches in the West the Latin West it becomes the perceived as the Mother Church of the West and the Eastern Church also today called the Orthodox Church had several of these cities with churches planted by apostles interestingly you had one Church in the West in Rome planted by the Apostles responsible for most of the missions in the West and that does something to you it they have this perceived prime authority in the Western Church and you start to see East and West slowly drift this is where you start to see this distinct Roman Catholic tradition versus the more diverse Eastern Catholic our Orthodox tradition developing so in some senses people think there are two groups but there really are three if you want to think of it that way there's the Orthodox or the Eastern Church the Roman Catholic which was the prime anomaly the Western Church until the Reformation and then you had those Protestants those protestors they're a real problem Scott where what are the Protestants come in we come out of the 16th century and we do build on a lot of the truths that the church held until then I think we have a fourth element those are called the Oriental Orthodox ok and when we get to about 800 the bishop timothy or metropolitan patriarch timothy over the Nestorian church alone had as many under his domain as rome had under theirs we forget about the east and we went all the way to Beijing to central China to the Ganges River to Nepal Tibet through Mongolia all the way back to Babylon and further west from there so there's all of this but the Protestants we began with Luther's nailing the thesis to the Wittenberg door by declaring though there are four forerunners from that but by declaring we're returning to Scripture and there are certain truths there that we affirm that we feel the Roman Catholic Church has walked away from okay so that produced the one of the great divides in the in the history of the church the other one being the schism between East and West where does that where does that fit in where I know we're jumping around on shall endure upon the chronology but yeah you have the as dr. pearl mentioned you have the Nestorian break in by the fifth century that's accomplished then you have the the break between east and west when the patriarch of Constantinople and the Bishop of Rome basically condemned each other and nassima ties each other that occurred in 1054 and it was over a Roman addition to the creed which according to orthodoxy cannot be changed and so to this day those two branches east and west are divided and with no hope of reconciliation inside you at this point and and the idea of Roman Catholicism of course is the point that Rome is seen as the what what the hub city if you will or the first among equals is the way that the Pope technically speaking exits over Rome but Rome is seen as the first among equals in the various cities and parishes that make up the Catholic Church and that's why it's called Roman Catholicism that is practically correct yes okay so so that kind of gets the basics out on the table in terms of of what we're dealing with so the idea of of catholicity is actually old and predates the rubber half a carriage and it's an attempt to affirm the essential unity that exists in belief in Christ and in the Trinitarian faith and if we were to look for Creed's that reflect this early if I can say pre Roman Catholic orthodoxy where would we find those kinds of statements yeah sure so already in the second century you have these summaries of the faith that are usually used at baptism or instruction of new believers they vary in language from place to place but are essentially saying the same thing when you get into the Arian controversy fourth-century you see at the Council of Nicaea many scholars think they basically took a baptismal confession and just added a few clarifying points and everybody all the bishops East and West agreed to this and this represents this Catholic faith in a Creed form you also see the definition of Kassadin and 451 another agreement on the person of Christ being two natures in one person this is another creed that is a confession that's shared east and west and by Protestants as well so there's a lot at the fundamental level the definition of catholicity that Protestants Catholics Eastern Orthodox all share in common now where does the Apostles what's called the Apostles Creed where does it fit in this mix yeah that was probably based on a second century baptismal formula used in Rome as a a question and response form of baptism do you believe in God the Father Almighty maker in heaven of heaven and earth I do and then there would be an immersion or pouring sounds like a wedding yeah exactly I do I do I do okay yeah so there's this threefold confession and those baptismal confessions it's probably what contributes to the Apostles Creed which also is adopted by by my Protestants okay now that kind of gives us an overview let's let's take a look at some of the distinctives that that mark out the difference between and we're really focused here on the difference between roman catholics and protestants and i think probably a place to start it's just how get how theology gets done if I can say it that way in other words the role of Scripture versus the role of an entity that Protestants don't talk about but the Catholics do the Magisterium what what what's going on in in that conversations sure I'll pick that up for Roman Catholicism increasingly from especially Gregory the Great I think around 600 on there was a there had been before but a body of of leaders that would say this is what the scriptures actually say and they're drawing also from the traditions of the faith at that point so Roman Catholicism very clearly declares that scripture the written word and tradition the spoken word when Dogma ties by the Magisterium made absolute doctrine they walked together through history in that Magisterium in that great tradition grows with time as the counsel of those determining doctrine say this is what the text means and when they do declare certain theology as doctrine or dogma that becomes binding and irrevocable so tradition and Magisterium or the tradition as defined by the Magisterium and scripture are said to walk together through history okay who makes up the Magisterium well those today are a Council of Cardinals basically aren't they Mike yeah and the Pope at the head yes he's an essential center of that Magisterium so Pope down he declares in fact who makes a part of that who constitute that Magisterium and they are with the Roman Catholic Church you see this kind of evolution of doctrine through the centuries in which the Protestants reacted against and so the Protestant teaching of Sola scriptura is said to be in in contrast to that and of course that's the idea that scripture itself is the source of doctrine in there for Protestants at least theoretically there is no Magisterium to function to make these kinds of judgments boring in creeds and it's not a Council of right a Magisterium No yeah so that that certainly is one major different and so that actually impacts the way you do theology because on the one hand Protestants tend to engage with the scripture this is what scripture teaches this is where doctrine comes from whereas in the Roman Catholicism approach you've got not only the the the scripture but then you've got this large tradition that develops although I must say as an aside that in some Protestant discussions of theology when you read them I think particularly here often times of the reformed tradition you've got this long history of of creedal discussion that's taking place since the Protestant Reformation in which you do get a lot of references to various kinds of confessions or catechism catechesis or whatever that that looks like it functions very much like a Magisterium might am i am i miss reading yeah and then has been some complaints since the Reformation of kind of a reaction within Protestantism against this new Magisterium and form of these confessions the Westminster Confession had particularly come under attack in the 19th and 20th centuries by some evangelicals but if you ask a Westminster reformed theologian none of them would say the Westminster Confession is infallible is the spirits speaking through the Westminster Divine's they would say we believe this is the in an accurate interpretation of Scripture but they would never raise it up to the same level and there's a difference and there is the difference exactly right yeah and so in fact the Protestant confessions are said to appeal to the scripture for the content that they have whereas in the context of Catholic doctrine you get I think the recognition in the and really the admission that the way we do theology includes the Magisterium as a part of the process a part of a recognised process in which the spirit is said to the Magisterium really becomes a controlling factor of interpreting the scripture so when you say that Mary was born without sin not even a sin nature and finally ascended into heaven which is official Roman Catholic dogma that's irrevocable that is that's doctrine of the church that cannot be changed in Roman Catholicism and one of the interesting things about that particular doctrine in that particular doctrine is that it actually was I know sanctioned I don't know what the proper word is what in the late 19th century early 20th the ascension bodily ascension was I think the last papal decree of absolute binding dr. 1950 1951 so that light okay then and then the what Immaculate Conception I that goes back further what the 14th century 13th century yeah so these are this is a great example of doctrines that really have no basis in Scripture I mean there's no passage of Scripture you can go to that would even this isn't really a matter of interpretation of Scripture this is an extension of the ology and extension of theology so but the idea is that just as the spirit spoke infallibly through the apostles and prophets and we have that in the scriptures the Spirit is continuing to grant apostolic authority to the church through the Magisterium and so when there is as ex cathedra from the seat of authority proclamation it is the same Holy Spirit speaking infallible through the church and so both of these then become norming authorities that that must be read together in the process of doing so I leave fair to say this is a pretty significant difference that we're talking about in terms of how to do theology through the whole orientation of what counts for doing theology is pretty important and whether you work exclusively with scripture whether Scripture and tradition get put together in some way that then builds your theology that that's that's difference number one if I can say it that way let's turn our attention to another category that it's probably the most obvious difference if I can say it that way people are immediately aware of and that is that that is the figure of the Pope although we sometimes joke about a Protestant Pope and I'm sure we've ever had one we certainly never had smoke coming out of a chimney to indicate who this figure is but the Pope has been an important part of the Roman Catholic Church for quite some time although I think it would be fair to say you can't go all the way back to the beginning to find the Pope although I've walked into the church I think instance that st. Paul and Gen Rome where it starts with Peter and goes through everybody coming all the way up well today it would be Francis when I was visiting there it was Benedict but anyway and so what's the history of the office of the Pope and I'm introducing this with an awareness my son went to a Roman Catholic College he went to st. John's in New York in in their religion class they had a class on the church and they read a book by Hans Kuhn on the history and development of the papacy in which Kuhn was complaining about the role of the Pope in the Catholic Church as a Catholic I was actually fascinating reading I read this book with him when he had the class and so so most people aren't aware of any of that so so tell us where's the Pope come from sure I'll take that and then come dr. hill can chime in if he wants it is an acknowledged fact by respectable and responsible of Roman Catholic historians and scholars that the papacy is a development the facts of history are on the Protestant side they're the issue now though is is this a development that is divinely sanctioned mm-hmm or is this something that is merely a convenience or contrivance so really the days of Roman Catholic saying Peter was the first pope and the papacy has been as it is all the way through are more or less over however at the popular level and in much of the many of the members of the hierarchy there's still this narrative that says Peter was the first pope and and it's they've been this unbroken succession what what you can see very early on at least by the second century is in the church in Rome you have a plurality of your elders or pres Pater's and a presiding elder someone who's sort of the the prime among equals in the leadership who eventually gets his own title of Bishop and eventually as time progresses develops into this this this Pope figure Pope Pope simply means father mm-hmm papa and that's where it develops but so you may have a primary leader in that particular local church in Rome but this idea of that leader becoming the bishop first of all of the Latin speaking West and then of all of the whole church east and west is a gradual development through the centuries and you start to see that really emerge in a serious kind of wire or at least claims that work in that way what in the 5th century or so are we talking about that lie yeah it's a gradual process but generally Protestants are going to look back and say Pope Gregory the first Gregory the grade two right around 600 is going to be a an emergence of somebody who really looks like a pope is going to look in the medieval period okay so and the other interesting thing that's in the backdrop is we do have evidence earlier in the church of localities kind of pushing against one another in terms of church issues the one that I'm aware of is Corinth interacting with Rome on certain issues where Rome is trying to assert its authority over Corinth and Corinth pushes back and says no no no no this is Aria you don't have the right to do this sure and you have that classic example is Polycarp of Smyrna and the Bishop of Rome over what what time of the year what week of the season do we celebrate paska or Easter and that was a difference of tradition and that the tendency of the Roman Church was to create unity through uniformity and that seems like they just couldn't handle having people doing things differently than them especially in their own jurisdiction whereas the East tended to be you know were united on the essentials but there's room for diversity of opinion and practice on lesser things and so you see this constant conflict when one wants to do things one way and everybody should be the same versus those who say look there's a room for diversity here and that's always been this historical conflict between East and West so so the idea of the Pope is kind of the second area of difference processes and really now that doesn't have that in in one sense at a practical level you can see the difference I mean there is the symbolic central figure who speaks is seen to speak for the Catholic Church in a way that's actually from a strictly marketing perspective I can say it that way branding perspective pretty powerful and Protestants don't have anything like that in fact they have in contrast sometimes a chaos going on which Catholics in pushing against Protestants else I see we've got art we're much more organized in some ways yeah and we have one Pope you have a million Pope's yeah everybody thinks that they're in jr's a pope yeah yeah so it's it's it's an interesting contrast well let's talk about a third air see if we can squeeze it in before the bright may on yeah absolutely in there yeah papal infallibility the idea that when the Pope speaks ex cathedra from the throne declaring doctrine that is a doctrine only from Vatican 1 1870 so back a little over a hundred years yes I mean I I think it's I think the fascinating thing about this discussion just from observing it from a historical point of view is to see you know this is theology in development in the Roman absolute Church and and you can see it in their places you know this is the teaching of the church but it's the recent teaching of the church you can see it build you know much like a volcano you know builds and then eventually it erupts and becomes obvious you know you can see the movement moving in a certain direction but it actually doesn't become declared and official until some of these statements come out and some of them are very very light and often in reaction to things that are going on in larger Christendom that that compel the church to be responsive some people described the Roman Catholic Church as a reactive entity in many ways and I think you see that and of course the history of of councils and conferences usually is reacting to something that's going on that needs a statement that's not Sara Lee a negative thing it's it's part of doing the discerning work of the church but but it's there and it's obvious and it's a part of of what what it's often happening so I think this is a fascinating part of the church that most people are very unaware of yeah well so so we've talked about two major differences we've talked about we've talked about the Magisterium and we've talked about the role of the Pope a third era was going to try and squeeze in before the break but there's no way we're going to get will get away with this but a third area to talk about is the role another very difference of people are well aware of is the role of mirror and and which is actually an extension of what I would consider to be Roman Catholic ecclesiology how ecclesiology works in the Roman Catholic Church and how that extends so what I want to do on the other side of the break is to come back and talk about those elements what how does the church see itself as a mediator if I can say it that way between the believer and God in contrast to the Protestant Church and what role does a figure like Mary play who's very very prominent it's not just Mary alone it's saints etc what kind of role that seems to me to be a third difference and it's one that people are transparently aware of as they interact with with the public perception of what Roman Catholicism is we're slowly but surely moving to what may be one of the more important differences and that is the way in which the church is placed in reference to both believer and God and also how the church functions in the world in Roman Roman Catholic thinking Scot how does that how does that work how's that different what's the difference there between Roman Catholics and Protestants well the Catholic Church really does see itself as kind of this holding bin or repository of what we call saving grace it is through the church that people are saved and so so the sacraments but by Wester of Peter being the first pope allegedly and the apostolic succession the church is seen as that as that entity in the world that distributes God's saving grace to believers and even more broadly than that in one sense since vatican ii so it is only through the church and really the sacraments of the church that are primary in terms of one's salvation so the symbolism that's often associated with this is the idea that the church holds the keys to the kingdom if i can say it that way and so basically the sacraments are seen as as those elements of the distribution of grace now I can see a Protestant listening to this and going I thought it comes through Christ how did that have that happen and so so what I mean one how does the Catholic explain that and then to what exactly is going on here in terms of the way this is seen yeah so that's exactly right the scripture a Protestant a good Protestant is going to go straight to there's one mediator between God and man the man Christ Jesus and they'll say well how can you have the church mediating salvation when Christ is the mediator it's a good point the response would be well the church is the body of Christ the extension of Christ and the Incarnation into the world and it mediates the body and blood of Christ through the sacrament of the Eucharist and so they're not seeing a difference Christ yes as the mediator but he chooses to mediate through the church Peter is the Vicar of the stand-in for Christ Christ himself gave the keys metaphorically to Peter to open and shut the gate to heaven and this is this idea as God mentioned the church has this infinite deposit of grace purchased by Christ through his his death and it then dispenses it as it sees fit through the various sacraments in some people some Saints like Mary or some of the other Saints that you would see pictures of statues of are through their merits by grace have have an overflowing abundance of grace and so Mary you know in the in the song a Hail Mary full of grace we know in Scripture that means she is a specially favoured a recipient angrily greeted is repeated exactly they will take that planet gratia as she's so full of grace she's overflowing with it and has extra grace for those who come to her and other senses with other saints as well so she's overflowing with grace so that's where the Mary part of this which people are most probably aware of as an extension of what this is teaching comes in she's seen as a as someone to whom we can appeal yet another picture of a physical mediator you know there's an in the old way that mass was done and it's still done in some forms of Roman Catholicism this was pictured by the fact that parishioners would take one element of the lord's table but then the priest would end up taking the other element and not offer it to the parishioner as a way of picturing this mediation is that correct sure yeah yeah the so the priest himself was standing in representing the congregation in the reception only the priest for many many centuries would receive the wine part of the Eucharist and the theology that was well if Christ is physically his humanity and divinity is fully really present in the bread and the wine just taking one you're getting the fullness of Christ you don't necessarily need the second one so there's that theology driving that practice yeah there's a reality to this what we call sacramentalism that might surprise many who are evangelicals listening that is that it's the very element itself as Mike as well said whether the bread or the wine or the baptism prior to that that's the first sacrament really but it is by Wester of the church doing it irrespective of whether the priest himself is walking with God or for that matter though it should be done in faith but the sacrament has saving value in itself and that's really powerful and so the sacrament in Roman Catholic view is is it direct it gives direct access to grace in a way that in Protestantism does not take place right right so it's more symbolic maybe too soft word because that only represents um a Protestant tradition but but but in Protestant belief the idea of the presence of faith or something like that actualizes the grace if I can say it that way or generates the benefit and then the right pictures that exchange as opposed to being directly involved there's an interesting element here we probably should go through this as we think through that say the what we call the Lord's Supper the different ways in which that scene you know there's there's what transubstantiation consubstantiation the memorial view kind of thing let's quickly go through the different ways that the the sacrament of the Lord's Supper is seen both within Roman Catholicism on the one hand and in the various forms of Protestant expression on the other because that gets at this I think in many ways yeah in the Roman Catholic Church the official dogma from about the middle of the medieval period on has been transubstantiation that is and there's a lot of there's a lot of philosophy and Aristotelian as I'm going on here but in essence when you are taking in ingesting the bread or the bread and the wine you are ingesting in its invisible essence the real physical body blood soul and divinity of Jesus Christ and that immortalized reality of Christ's resurrection glorified body is going to infuse in you it's going to transform you in some way and enable you to to to live the Christian life in some sense and impart to you life in the Protestant tradition we don't have a transubstantiation doctor the closest you would get would be Martin Luther's consubstantiation which says you're actually eating the bread and wine but with that attached to that by God's grace you are receiving also I call it the overall yeah yeah it's a little it's a little tricky but for the most part the Protestant doctrine of Lord's Supper is going to range from a this is a symbol of a reality a means of devotion to a we are receiving this from as if from Christ's hands and it is imparting to us some spiritual blessing in Christ as present as the host of the meal not in the so the range is we've got you know strictly with moral view or basically recalling and memorializing and honoring what it is thank God picturing what God has done for us all the way over to there's some something spiritual happening here but it's not in the elements itself I mean among Evangelion right with the exception of the Lutheran which which does say there's something physical going on there it's more of a mystery okay so so again this is another significant difference you know it used to always baffle me I think would be the word why it is the Catholics felt the responsibility to have a daily Mass but you know if you think about what it is that's taking place in the mass because the mass is built around this this is really built around the table when you think about what's going on in the mass and this idea that Grace somehow gets communicated to you through this right the idea of if I can use a picture plugging in every day to get more grace if I can say it that way makes more sense when you when you think through what the theology is saying it makes it makes sense to draw on grace that's available to you in this way not saying that's right er it's biblical but I'm simply saying it's it's a consistent kind of way of thinking about how grace can work but it's very contrastive to the Protestant picture which says that once you experience the grace of God you are a member of this community you know in and there's something there's something permanent about what Christ is and what Christ has done is once and for all in a way that the the repeating of the mass and the distribution of grace seems to work against is that uh well I would say there's a there's a flipside to this in Catholicism as well I know I've lived in Brazil friars many are simply baptized into the church that first that first sacrament maybe a few will take a first first Eucharist the Lord's Supper and apart from that they don't care that has those two acts of the sacraments in their lives they the Catholic Church would affirm is sufficient already for their eternal salvation even though they may not believe much else that's the safeguard that keeps them there so they've checked the box they've checked the box and faith should be a part of it every Roman Catholic would say but isn't always a part of it it's they're just getting through the door hmm interesting so so well just going to review here so we've talked about Magisterium and how a theology gets done we've talked about the Pope we've talked about this role that the church has is kind of a mediator standing between the believer in God again in contrast to Protestantism in which there's the priesthood of all believers there's direct access to God direct access to God through Christ for a believer in Protestantism in a way that is pictured in Express theological II that is distinct from the way the Roman Catholic Church is doing is and and so this difference in how ecclesiology is seen is a pretty important significant difference between the two traditions fair mm-hmm absolutely and then of course we've got the role of the sacraments and in the way in which grace is said to be communicated in a Roman Catholic context that's different from the way it's handled in processes unless talked about a couple of other things that that make for differences some of which are famous or infamous depending on how you look at them and I want to I want to come to the idea of indulgences because indulgences really triggered in many ways it's one of the things that triggered the Protestant Reformation so let's talk about how indulgences functioned in the Roman Catholic Church and what the reaction was that actually was one of the catalysts for the Protestant Reformation and I don't know who wants to take that one but but who wants to talk about indulgences of course it grew from in part the the doctrine of purgatory and so oh good that were another one a lot of all right I want to jump the gun oh we got a twofer this is great all right okay well purgatory is really not in the scriptures some will try to base it in what 2nd Corinthians 3 or the 1st Corinthians 3 where the foundation is it remains but everything else is burned off but the idea of purgatory grew with time and even some Catholics were critics of their own Catholic faith would say it sure looked good for filling the coffers to build the churches with indulgences are your acts or payments to escape the punishment of every unworthy believer for entering heaven wasn't didn't apply to non-believers least initially in the history of the church rather it was Christians Catholic Christians who must yet suffer because their lives were not worthy to go into heaven so indulgences and the business of indulgences grew immensely to to build the Roman Catholic Empire in many ways so it comes alongside purgatory another another Catholic distinctive is the idea of confession which is I guess part of this edifice of what we're talking about how do I respond to sin after I've come to Christ is almost the way we're thinking about these and these are all related and and so there's this whole system of dealing with with with sin in the Roman Catholic Church that's very distinct from the way Protestants tend to deal with it so so go ahead I'm interrupting you go ahead and develop what happened with indulgences and what the reaction well it became so stark by the time of the Reformation here Mike's the experts but up as as Luther and others looked at Scripture and said wait a minute do justification is by faith it is a free gift of God by merit of what Christ is fully accomplished the key that you would argue that the Catholic Church by these indulgences is really saying that the work of Christ on the cross is insufficient for our full salvation believers yet have to pay in suffering in purgatory before they are allowed into heaven there's a there's a great moment in Martin Luther's life and hoping you're gonna wire this I don't know I got the same so much yeah he was visiting Rome and one of the things that you would do it was almost like a indulgences obstacle course you could go through various things and do some things to get time out of purgatory and one of the famous ones even to this day I visited it myself did not climb it but the sacred steps yes Jesus were in the same place and Martin Luther climbed it in order to buy one of his relatives out of purgatory get some time there and gets to the top of the crawl on your knee yeah you come on exactly there's prescribed prayers that you say each time you for each step you go there today the steps have almost indicated all reserch all they really do over all the centuries yeah um I took the side steps cuz I was at escalator I wasn't I didn't hit my knees at all okay Zack and so Luther got up to the very top and he got his a little paper full of indulgences he looks down the stairs and sees all these people climbing and he has this thought in his head how do we know any of this is true how do we know this is true you know and it became well what is our authority for doctrine what is our Authority for this kind of thing and he you know where do you go well he goes to the Bible and there's no there's no basis for this in Scripture so this whole business of indulgences was one of the things that pushed through there to rethink the whole concept of salvation you know in the Roman Catholic Church this is fair to say the salvation is more of a process it's a lifelong process you're you're involved in the process through participation in the church and the sacraments you can kind of get off the train and that's not good you'll end up in purgatory but if you keep on you know there is some sense of security whereas in in the Protestant tradition there is the sense of you are justified a one-time experience of salvation and then an outworking of spiritual growth so there is a a more of a momentary conversion and salvation that is played out there's a decisive means salvation is a process in Scripture but but how it plays out is very very different it's not it's not something in the Roman Catholic churches you almost have the sense of having to maintain it sure but in Protestantism it's it's there you have it you're sealed with the spirit and collocates make any exactly you call there's still a process and you can cultivate it and you grow in it and all those kinds of things we call it sanctification but your status is guaranteed from the very beginning and so that that part of it is an important part of the conversation you know it's those steps are interesting they're located if I remember correctly I think they're located near the church that is the the the seat for the rose on st. John Lateran which is which is which is the primary Church in Rome for the city of Rome it's not the Vatican and it is a stunning location to visit just because of the history that's associated with it in that kind of thing well this right this issue of purgatory and indulgences and these things that feed into the Magisterium if I can say it that way raises another issue that comes alongside that's another difference and that is the books that count for being a part of Scripture okay one of the things that happen with purgatory at least that I'm aware of and working in New Testament studies because we work with intertestamental what we call intertestamental literature or Second Temple literature that's the Jewish material that's written between the Testaments is that in Roman Catholicism those books which are known as the Apocrypha to many Protestants are called are sometimes called the deuterocanonical the second level of the canon if you want to think of it that way and so these books do have some teaching and doctrines that the Old Testament the Hebrew Scripture done didn't have and that Catholics did draw upon to make some of the theological moves that they did purgatory being perhaps them one of the more outstanding examples and so you have this additional layer of Scripture and I often get asked the question what it what are those other extra books you know what's going on there and so how does that fit into the scheme of things and when did those books come to be recognized as part of the Catholic Bible which i think is an interesting part of the story as well you know that's a great question I you know as you know these books were floating around in the intertestamental period for the most part they were part of the Septuagint the Greek translation the Hebrew Scriptures not part of the Hebrew text that the Jews were using so this already in the early church there was some debate or question about how much should we use these things it was universally acknowledged that these are helpful books absolutely they're inspirational I like to say not inspired yeah and in fact Martin Luther had them translated and he he provided introductions for them and valued them as being good Christian literature but not canonical not as a basis for theology you know and that's interesting yeah there are a few passages that you if you already hold the doctrine of purgatory mm-hmm you could go to those passages and gain more support yeah there's somebody yes but it could never really build the doctor purgatory from those few passages anymore you could from the rich man and Lazarus or first Corinthians three that's it's more of a doctrine in search of a text so I would say even if those doctrine those books were in the Protestant Bible we would not be Roman Catholic right so they're not you know the key to becoming Roman Catholic those things were added officially though as they did float around in the background for a while through the centuries they were added officially only after the Reformation in this part of the counter-reformation the Council of Trent in the 1540s so yet another example of how the development of theology is it operates in the Catholic Church has incorporated things to round out the basis for what for what's being claimed well we've really walked through a whole series of distinctions between Roman Catholicism and process and I'm going to ask you a horrible question with a couple of minutes left and that is if you were to summarize kind of what you think the key difference between Roman Catholicism Protestantism and you could put it in a paragraph or so what would what would that be I'll let you each get a crack at that question yeah I would say the key difference is Roman Catholicism is always Christianity plus and so it's grace plus something else faith plus worked it's the work of Christ plus the intercession of Mary and the Saints it's the the canonical books plus the Apocrypha it seems like there's additions the the problem is not that they're denying the Trinity in the the deity and humanity of Christ in the center of Orthodoxy it says that they are dogmatically adding layers to that that become very distracting from the purity of the gospel interesting Scott yeah I would say it is the source of authority finally is it the Bible itself that then is the judge of all tradition or is it vice versa that's number one number two is that's that that source of authority coming down through coming down through Peter or really through Mary who's now the Queen of Heaven as this ascended one that's a good example of doctrine that has built on itself without any real to the point where the addition almost types of hot top role and liar that it didn't previously ever have the co media tricks she's the co-redeemer with Christ the new Eve as Christ is the last item and so you have both that parallel track which really especially outside of North America in Europe really dominates the false isms I've seen it in different parts of the world so Mary becomes a chief mediator almost a planning place of Christ though a good Catholic would say no but it's through Mary Christ works we're running out of time you know that one of the things that you've raised here at the end that people do need to be aware of is is that Catholicism does have a little bit of a different character depending on where you are in the world in terms of what gets emphasized and so to think of Catholicism is kind of this huge monolithic thing it actually is a conglomeration of a variety of expressions yeah but what they share is this this additional element that reflects the development of theology in the way it's theological means are structured and you've got a book there called the Catechism of the Catholic Church that does a good job of letting Catholics speak for themselves well this 46 minutes has flown by and I want to thank you all for taking the time to come in and talk with us about the difference between roman catholics and protestants it's a fascinating discussion and i'm sure we'll have you back to talk more about these kinds of theological issues we thank you for being a part of the table and hope you'll be back again with thanks for listening to the table podcast for more podcasts like this one visit DTS edu slash the table Dallas Theological Seminary teach truth love weld you you

Channel: Dallas Theological Seminary

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Id: Bg_zl0EnFd0

Length: 46min 44sec (2804 seconds)

Published: Tue Feb 09 2016