Roman Catholicism - 2019 Apologetics Conference with Dr James White (Session 1)

we are in the flight path aren't we well it is excellent to be back here I was a little surprised when Michael reminded me that it's been three years since we were here last but my how time flies and I do recall that the last time I was here in that conference I was joined by a young fella by the name of Jeff Durbin and little did we know at that time what was going to happen in the future how many of you have already seen the anti-freeze debate yes very good someone told me yesterday that my entire careers could be known as ba and AAA before antifreeze and after antifreeze I can tell you some funny stories in the background of that but we don't have time for that this morning there's there's lots of funny things there but anyway we do have some very important things to discuss this morning in the first session dealing with a subject that is definitely designed to keep your ministry very small and unpopular and that is to deal with the subject of Roman Catholicism we live in a day of course where even those who trace themselves back to the Protestant Reformation do so almost with apologies and with some embarrassment at the excesses of that time and certainly as we look at the at the wars that were fought over religion in Europe we can we can certainly recognize that there were excesses and that in fact the the the connection of the political realm to religion in those days created all sorts of difficulties and problems if any of you have ever seen it's the little it's only five minutes long I did a little five-minute video two years ago right about now when we were in Germany for the 500th anniversary of the Reformation and we visited the site where Fritz urbe was imprisoned in the Vaart burg castle the same castle where Luther translated the New Testaments into German and hid from the Emperor Charles for a period of time in 1521 and this pit into which this what we call today and and a Baptist was thrown and somehow survived for seven years before his death we we talked about the reality of how sacral ISM the relationship of church and state at that time was so vitally important to an understanding of how that could happen Luther knew he was there he did not lift a finger to see him freed did he see the tension that we see in that there's all sorts of issues like that that we can get to and because of that because we can properly talk about those things many people feel that when it comes to our day maybe we should reanalyze all those anathemas I mean does anyone really believe that kindly old fellow in Rome really wants to anathematized all of us well to be perfectly honest with you I think there's a pretty good reason to question well that kindly old fellow in Rome is even a trinitarian let alone as there's really good reason to leave he is a universalist that he believes everyone's going to be saved he doesn't believe the large number of things that his predecessors did believe which is one of the complicating factors that we have to consider as we talk about our relationship with Roman Catholicism today what is it you could define it much more clearly and much more specifically in 1950 than you can today and it's ironic there is a big conference going on here in Sydney today with the Roman Catholics Roman Catholic apologist Tim staples i think is probably speaking right now as I am speaking here and Tim and I have debated a few times we tried to get them to debate and at first they said yes and then they said no and so here we are and one of my first suggestions was let's let's debate Pope Francis it's not a good day to be a Roman Catholic apologist every day you have to you have to wake up and and you there's that gnawing fear what has he said now and to whom did he say it and how am I going to spin this I'm absolutely serious I I've been doing this for a long time I mean my my first debate was in August of 1990 in Long Beach California against a man by name of Jerry Maddox I think I've debated him 13 times and he was a celebrity convert to Roman Catholicism he was John Gerstner 's student assistant he was all that dissertation at Westminster seminary graduate of Gordon Conwell the first PC a Presbyterian Church of America ordained minister to become a Roman Catholic so he was sort of a celebrity today he is more Roman Catholic than the Pope which isn't difficult to do actually given this Pope but he is a what's called a said a they consist I don't even know where he is right now the last time I saw Jerry honestly he was on Jeopardy he was on Jeopardy with Alex Trebek I'm serious game show very famous there United States he lost but he was that's last time I saw I don't know what he believes anymore but back then he was he was the big dog and when when we first began those debates you you could have an understanding of where Roman Catholicism was coming from it's tough today it is really really tough today to define it I can tell you what ancient orthodoxy was and if you're a if the question is going to anyone's mind well when do you think Roman Catholicism started that's actually a very important and good question I suppose we should define that first huh because a lot of people have the idea that rome catholicism starts with peter maybe it was the council of nicaea constantine no as i've pointed out if you look at the at the official dogmas of the Roman Catholic Church that you have to believe to be a Roman Catholic today no one at the Council of Nicaea believed what you have to believe to be a Roman Catholic today but some of those dogmas were not even heard of in the first five hundred years of church history I mean you simply can't point me to an Orthodox believing Roman Catholics believing Christian in the first five hundred years that believed in the bodily assumption of Mary as a dogma of the faith it just isn't anybody there I mean people later tried to they created fake pseudepigrapha writings forgeries to try to make that but it just doesn't happen in the actual writings the early church so where do I think Roman Catholicism really begins well it's the problem is if you ever see a tract or a book that has a list of dates be very skeptical because nothing just comes into existence overnight you don't have people going to bed one night believing one thing and then they wake up the next morning ah purgatory yes no there has to be an there has to be lots of development there has to be all these sub beliefs that start coming together to to form these things over time and that's exactly what you do see in church history so for me personally I think the most I think the best date that I can use for the origin of what would be modern Roman Catholicism would be the fourth Lateran council in 1215 ad why because when you look at Roman Catholic worship even to this day except in the most liberalized forms of it the central act of worship has remained the same for pretty much a solid eight hundred years and that is the concept of the mass and once you start having the reservation of the host now how many former Roman Catholics do we have here okay so you know what the reservation host is you know but if you were walking into Roman Catholic Church back in the back there would have been a little thing with some holy water in it you're supposed to cross yourself and genuflect why because normally someplace up here some normally over on that side there is a tabernacle some other words for the containers picks ciborium monstrance there would be a place where one of the hosts from the mass that have been transubstantiated they have been turned into body soul blood and divinity of jesus christ are kept and so because of the doctrine of transubstantiation then you believe that God is physically present in the church building and you are bowing to God that's why that's why you genuflect that's why you do what you do that dogma was unknown the first thousand years well there was definitely a belief that Christ is spiritually present with his people in the Supper if you've ever read both the Westminster Confession of faith and the London Baptist confession of faith on the Lord's Supper it says the same thing not in the Roman Catholic sense and in fact very strongly differentiating itself from Roman Catholic idea but a spiritual presence of Christ with his people when they are obeying his own command to do this in remembrance of him is one thing physical presence through the the transmutation of Eros Aristotelian categories of accidents and substance was something that was developed long after the time of the Apostles and in fact comes into vogue about thousand years after Christ after his birth so that concept is made dogma at the fourth Lateran Council in 1215 so for me you have a strong functioning papacy by that time you have a strong functioning papacy in the Middle Ages too but you have a papacy you have transubstantiation the the priesthood of course began to develop in the third century that has become part and parcel of the entire concept and so modern Roman Catholicism in that sense now someone might argue yeah but Mary is so central to the modern Roman Catholic conception and the Marian dogmas the the to the to last Marian dogmas do not come about for the six hundred six hundred years after that in 1854 1951 you don't yeah but that's that's way too late there obviously was their own the Catholic Church against which the Reformers reacted we do recognize there's been change in Rome and the change has always been for the negative and even today as many Roman Catholics are moving away from many of the things that we have objected to they're doing so for the wrong reasons it's not because there is a Reformation based upon biblical authority saying you know we shouldn't really believe in in the bodily assumption of Mary I mean it was obviously designed to parallel Jesus and it's actually based upon preceding errors about Mary and you know it's it's a part of this whole exaltation of Mary there's there's even another Marian dogma that many Roman Catholics do believe and are pushing to have defined and there was a possibility back in late 1990 1990s that John Paul might have established this particular dogma and it's the idea that Mary is co-redemptrix comedia tricks for the people of God so co-redeemer co-mediator with Jesus for the people of God popes have taught since the 1800s that no grace flows to anyone except see Mary Mary is the head a Mary is the neck that turns the head that is God's grace so it all flows through meri this centrality of meri has is very much a part of the experience of certain strands of Roman Catholicism today but I also recognize that there Roman Catholics who have almost no connection to Mary at all that just tells you how much wider the expression of Roman Catholicism is today than it was only a few decades ago I mean in my dad's day there wouldn't have been any discussion of these things what Rome believed was pretty straightforward what the Pope's taught was pretty straightforward yes I would agree that there there were undercurrents taking place within Rome and within the Curia but no one I think could have guessed just how far those things were going to go and I would say the the modern Church of Rome faces a tremendous challenge the Pope himself has used the word schism of late there are powerful forces and that's all to say that I understand why there is a another conference going on someplace else in Sydney today and those speaking there though we have debated in the past aren't debating me today especially on that topic because if I were them I wouldn't want to either the fact is they don't know where he's going to go and they don't know what's gonna happen and it's a tough day to be a Roman Catholic apologist there's no question about it that doesn't change our duties why well let's let's transfer the subject of discussion to here in a place where there is a very large Anglican influence now as you all know Sydney Anglicans are a breed unto themselves and we are very thankful for this the first few times I came here I was brought over here by David old and the the Sydney Anglicans and I was asked to speak on subjects like an errand see and justification by faith and and all these wonderful things like that and there are such Anglicans around the world I did a debate only last year in Belfast Northern Ireland with a Roman Catholic can you believe that we had a public debate with a Roman Catholic in Belfast last year for those of you old enough you're sitting there going Wow i if you remember the 1970s then you know that that was a pretty amazing and historic thing to be able to actually have that kind of debate but we debated indulgences with Peter Williams there and he's a he's a believing Roman Catholic old Sal Roman Catholic and he's not afraid to say hey this is what Rome is always taught even though he knows that's not really what's going on today and in the Curia but that church was a Anglican Church a gaff Kananga wooden Church there in in Belfast so but you know once you leave the Sydney area that elsewhere in Australia not all of the Anglicans are nearly as conservative as they are in Sydney and Anglicanism as a whole has always because of its history had to deal with the the in born desire for the Via Media the Middle Way that's what that's what started the church that's what started in the Church of England and that's still very much a part of of the thought process how far you can take that I do not know given what's going on today given movements within many prostitutions today just yesterday a friend of mine in South Africa sent me a statement from the Reformed churches of South Africa collapsing on the subject of marriage given that this is happening here as well eventually there has to be a line that cannot be crossed you you just you just can't keep scooting a little bit farther away and a little bit farther away to try to make room and when it comes to Roman Catholicism the real question for all of us if you know the history of the city of Rome you know that her western border is formed what's called the Tiber River and so you know that has been a a phraseology has been used for a long time to convert to Roman Catholicism is to swim the Tiber to cross that that boundary into into Rome and I have said for a very long time that that's a good illustration and the problem is we have many many many non Roman Catholics they are not in submission to the Pope they do not practice the sacramental system of Rome they would not identify a priest as well every priest even to this day when he is ordained in the Roman Catholic system one of the phrases that is used of him is he is an alter Christus alter Christus alte our Latin phrase alter Christus when I debated Mitch Pacwa on the priesthood back in the 90s and I stole my debates with Mitch are in my opinion the best in Roman Catholicism that I've done because Mitch just doesn't play games he he's on us to straight forward he doesn't he doesn't try to get cheap debating tricks which I could name a number of other Roman Catholic apologists of which that is not true and he was straightforward he he said yes I am another Christ that's what alter Christus means I am another Christ i minister in the place of Christ and I am another Christ that you know there are many who will say you know I just won't go there but when it comes to certain fundamental issues that were part and parcel the Reformation many today are either on Rome's side or more to the point they're paddling around in the middle of the Tiber River they're not on the far side calling people out of Rome they're paddling around in the middle in a position of compromise they don't even know it and par that's because most of us don't know much about the history of the church and we don't really care where we stand when it comes to where our forefathers stood and how they were consistent in their practice and so that picture to me I'm often saying these people you need to you need to quit paddle around out there bring your boat to shore on this side break it up build an altar and call people out of Roman Catholicism but that's just not that's just not how a lot of people want to do things today that seems too radical this is some place where a lot of folks who otherwise will very much appreciate John Calvin or Ulrich Zwingli or their successors or a Martin Luther for that matter will will appreciate what they said on certain things but when it comes to this while things have changed how things changed when it when it comes to Roman Catholicism Rome has only added to the number of errors that she teaches she has not corrected any of them simple salad addict and to changed all that like what the documents of Vatican to have more sections on indulgences than they have on justification think about that for a second indulgences are still a completely valid concept within Roman Catholic theology and this Pope though I don't think for a second I hate to call him Francis because he strikes him more as a Frankie you know Pope Frankie Pope Frankie the cool you know I think that's probably how this could be remembered Pope Frankie the cool still gives out what are called plenary indulgences a full remission of all the temporal punishments of sins upon your soul for doing certain things now do I believe for a second that he really believes that that actually happens that's actually necessary no I don't even for the year of Jubilee that just happened recently where in the history of Roman Catholicism what you would do is you would there would be in certain cathedrals only in cathedrals the the the seats of the archbishop only in certain cathedrals there would be certain doors that would be opened like this one okay that really wouldn't be all that important but they that are always closed and when you open these certain doors in the year of Jubilee by going through those certain doors and of course there is you know the requested donation to be allowed to do that but by going through these certain doors you would receive indulgences this is long history within Roman Catholicism well Pope Francis along comes the year of Jubilee a couple years ago and nobody's showing up worst attendance ever and so he just expands on it and and and gives the right to other people to assign certain doors just to try to get more people to try to come through and it's just obvious that the the historical basis of what that was based on the idea of a literal purgatory and and a literal transfer of merit and the whole idea that eventually you stand before God robed in a garment of righteousness it's made up of Jesus's righteousness Mary's righteousness every saint has ever lived and your own that's what the official dogma of the church is I don't think Francis believes any of that because if he can sit there and tell that little kid that his atheist daddy is gonna go to heaven because his atheist daddy allowed his kids to be baptized that's not somebody who believes in the doctrine purgatory in any meaningful fashion in fact it's not somebody who believes in the necess and in the wrath of God in any meaningful fashion so I don't think he believes any of that stuff but he still utilizes the the forms and that's what liberalism does and the man is a liberation theologian he's a as liberal as they come and what they do is they use old terminology and old forms but they fill them with new meaning and in the process they eventually destroy them it's gonna be fascinating to see who comes after Francis it really is gonna be fascinating to see who comes out Francis I have no predictions all I can tell you is right now there is tremendous confusion and there is the possibility strong possibility of schism there's tremendous corruption in the Vatican and everybody knows it and we've even got the freaky situation of having two contradicting popes right now not officially but Ratzinger pope benedict xvi is old time not old time as in 1800s but far more historically orthodox as far as Roman Catholicism concerned the Francis they're both alive at the same time and everybody knows that they're at loggerheads with one another everybody knows it was only a few months ago the Ratzinger actually put out a statement contradicting the current Pope this is a weird day in which we live last time stuff like that happened was in the well they needed to call the Council of Constance in 1414 to get rid of three different popes and establish one that's where they also burned en host and so that's about the last time we had a situation like this so it is fascinating the world's media could really care less they don't really care too much in Italy they do because it's like local corrupt politics but it is a it is a a day that is very challenging for those who are seeking to defend Roman Catholicism and I I've noticed a major major decrease in the number of debates that Roman Catholic apologists are doing major decrease we've had something to do with that but I think much more than that the whole situation there is they're more concerned about keeping their own people in right now the boat it has sprung some leaks and they're trying to patch those things up so anyways for people who are paddling around in the middle of the Tiber River let me remind folks of what I think the issues really are back in the nineteen ninety six I think I wrote a book called the Roman Catholic controversy I'm thankful to Bethany house has kept that in print all these years and nothing's really changed since then and the the argument that I made in that book is all the other issues we can deal with papacy certainly the foundational issue of Sola scriptura scripture is the sole infallible rule of faith the church all these things are all subservient to and a part of what it takes to get to the discussion of what the gospel itself is it would be obviously very advantageous for us if we can simply redefine Christianity the way that many people are redefining Christianity today as mere Christianity now I don't think CS Lewis went this far but there are people who use the title of this book and they will say look I just defend mere christianity which is what which is the trinity the death burial and resurrection of jesus christ period it's not an inspired and inerrant revelation from god it is not the gospel the gospel let's just be honest even though scripture promises the truth the gospel would abide with us even though Paul talked about the truth the gospel I did not we did not put up with them for even a moment so the truth of the gospel would remain with you the fact that matter is in 97% 98% of theological education that has some type of Christian attached to the name around the world the confidence that we can actually have that we actually possess a clear enough revelation from God to know this is the gospel and that isn't is no longer believed it's no longer believed most of the people coming out of our seminaries have been so compromised when it comes to their Biblio a dare belief that God has spoken in his word that their theology is much more of a guess ology sort of guess this I sort of guess that really don't know I'm not sure my church history professor years and years ago you've heard me say before had a saying what is a missed in the pulpit is a fog in the pew and so if the one I'm up front doesn't have a clear view of what the truth is the people in the pew are going to have a less clear view than even he has of that issue of truth and so when it comes to how you define Christianity today it would be a whole lot easier if I went with the mere christianity view because we could get a real you know we could still put together a decent number of people if you just didn't have to worry about that gospel thing now for me I'm like yeah well what good does it do to have the triune God Despero resurrection of Jesus if you can't explain what that means so you got empty tomb what does that mean you can't can't talk about that that gets into the gospel thing what good is that how is there how does that accomplish anything if the power of God the only power given to the church is the gospel then then saying we're really not really sure how to answer a bunch of really tough definitional questions on that how is that health anything it seems extremely debilitating to me and so of everything I mean it's pretty obvious that if you worship the wrong God then you're separated from what would be called the Christian faith but of all the things that come after that it seems to me the gospel is the most central in the Apostles thinking at least as I read Galatians chapter one which is why so many people consider Paul to have just gone off the rails there it was a little over the top that was a little over the top it's a terminology at Barry Lynn used and a debate against me in 2001 when we were talking about about that he's he was ordained minister in the United Church of Christ which left the gospel about 80 years ago but he felt Paul was a little over the top of course he believed he could receive revelation just as Paul did too so maybe that's canonical revelation a little over the top I don't know that's what happens they're getting personal revelation but be it as it may the real issue that I pointed to in the Roman Catholic controversy is the gospel and if you understand Rome's teaching on the nature of the mass the nature the priesthood and the nature of forgiveness and the sacraments then you must come to conclusion that if Paul was right to anathematized Judaizers for adding one requirement by saying to get into the New Covenant you've got to get into the Old Covenant first before you can then get into the New Covenant so you've got to be circumcised before you can become a follower of Jesus they added one thing you got it you got to follow the same path the rest of us have fo if Paul was right to say that is anathema that is not even Christian you are separated from the faith by your action of doing that then logically when you look at all of the additions that Rome has added to the gospel then Rome's gospel likewise must be considered to be under the Anathem of Paul otherwise you just simply have to throw out Paul's Authority just or you have to say well you know back then an apostle could do that we can't do that today we can't tell what a true gospel is today even though we have their example even though we have page after page after page of of New Testament writings that illustrate these things no we just it's not coherent enough it's not consistent enough to too many contradictions that's what you'll be taught in many seminaries and Bible colleges too many contradictions we just can't know so we just need to sort of get along with everybody as long as they say Jesus everything's good when you understand that there is no finished work of Christ within Roman Catholicism there isn't there is no finished work that priest right now in services Roman Catholic churches around the world there are priests who believe that they are re priests Banting not not a not a they they believe it is a representation of the same sacrifice of Calvary but in an unbloody manner they're representing the one sacrifice of Christ and that it is a propitiatory atonement it's a propitiatory act once you understand that then you you think through that well what that means is in Roman Catholicism you can come the cross over and over and over and over again and still die impure and have to go to purgatory or still die in pure in fact having committed a mortal sin losing the grace of justification and going to hell even though you went to the cross literally thousands of times in your life and central to that is the idea of the necessity of the Roman Catholic priest who because of his Sasser total authority is able to call Jesus down from his throne and render him present upon the altar of the church over and over and over again that's their terminology not mine that's their language you have to have that that's why there is one true church and you have to accept the Sasser total authority of the Roman hierarchy so that you can have that one true church the sacramental system becomes the means by which the church controls the grace of God and therefore the people of God and if you remember anything about the Reformation at all you should remember at least the material and the formal principles the material principle of the Reformation one of the five SOLAS solafeet a it was the substance that was preached justification by faith alone not justification by faith plus this act plus that act plus the continuation this plus that hoping that some day you can grow in enough justification to be able to make it no justification by faith alone because of the nature of that saving faith and because the nature of the grace it makes it that was the material principle of the Reformation the formal principle the Sola scriptura Scripture as the soul and foul will rule of faith of the church because the only way to actually substantiate a denial of soul of fidei is to add the authority of traditions and you get to choose which traditions there are because when you look at the early church when you look at the history of the church there's all sorts of traditions you can draw from if you want to to build yourself a system of theology those were the the the by words of the Reformation not that they purposefully knew what the five SOLAS were Luther Calvin would wonder what you were talking about if you asked them about the five SOLAS if you asked them maybe they had a five SOLAS t-shirt or something like that they would they would look at you like are you a witch duff found need to be burned because the five SOLAS are us looking backwards at what they taught and identifying what separated them and what defined their teaching they're accurate but they're a later formulation based upon looking back upon where the Reformers are coming from but they identified very very very important realities and those realities remain central to this day how is a person made right before God and the fact that there has become so much there's there's so much confusion now and so much hesitancy on the part of Bible believing evangelicals who hold to the Pauline gospel in the sense of the emphasis Paul had to deal with the reality that when you preach the grace of God the natural result of man is to react like a Palladium now that's anachronistic I know Pelagius is very angry that we use is his name in that way that's fine he's dead so doesn't matter but there is an inherent pelagianism in the heart of man an inherent belief that I am good and God owes me something and I am able I am capable one of the tracks who wrote long ago for the Mormons because they are biased Pelagian as you can get I mean if Adam fell upward Europe legian if you think you can become a God by your own for Europe Legion I wrote a track for them called no man is able no man is able just let's just get right to the point and let's start there no man is able that's biblical language by the well by the way no man is able to come to me unless the father sent me draws him that's Jesus own words but when Grace and the sovereignty of grace is proclaimed man's natural response is to create systems to control the grace of God and that control fundamentally is to allow man's will to be sovereign over God's will that's the essence of human religion I don't care which religion it is you break it on down that's what it's meant to do and so Paul once that gospel is now proclaimed the gospel of the Risen Jesus he has to deal with the reaction to that especially as it's seen amongst the people who think that because of their genetics they are in right with God in the first place and that's what you get in Romans and Galatians and other places as well but especially an extended format in Romans and Galatians to illustrate the reality that it is to the one who does not work but believes on him who justifies the ungodly his faith is reckoned as righteousness Romans chapter 4 that is destructive of all human boasting and that's why it's so impossible and will always be unpopular until the day Jesus returns amongst worldly people it will always be unpopular to destroy any ground of arrogant boasting and pride on man's part it takes the control out of our hands and so there are many today who trace themselves back to Protestants but don't believe what the early Protestants believed on that very issue and so they're the ones in the middle of the Tiber and they just don't know that they're there we need to be very clear on this because if what Galatians 1 says is true if what Galatians 2 says is true if the anathematizing of the Judaizers is correct and if the statement in Galatians chapter 2 we did not put up with them for even an hour so that the truth of the gospel might remain with you and Paul identifies them as pseudo Delphi false brethren that means they look like us they talk like us they use our language but they're false brethren if that is true then I would say to anyone who says now you're overreacting give me some explanation as to how you can make the Roman Catholic gospel fit with Paul's teaching of justification show me and the very fact that most of my debates roman catholics has been on Sola scriptura that's the one topic you've done more than any other why because Rome rejects it why because you can't using Sola scriptura and tota scriptura all the scripture and scripts are only you cannot come up with Rome's dogmas you have to have external authorities you have to have a lens through which to read the scriptures and then you have to be bringing in external stuff to put this all together and so Rome deny is the sufficiency of Scripture and it's not surprising that there is a constant every single generation battle for us to continue to believe in the sufficiency of Scripture it's not just because of Rome it's not just because well I guess there are some people who do theorize it's all a big jazz what plot the the Jesuits are lost as well they don't know what the role they believe liberalism will do that to everybody and you know the Pope's are Jesuits so that helps explain that I don't think it's Jesuit plot but there is no question of the fact that there is a constant and consistent attempt on the part of the world to undermine our confidence in the sufficiency of Scripture because once you've lost that there is no basis for you to be concerned about evangelizing Roman Catholics or anyone else you don't have anything that you really have to communicate with them it's all a matter of opinion anyways if there is no sure word from God let's all cut this whole thing short and go home because we are wasting our time we are wasting our time if there is then that word consistently testifies that there have always been those who seek to insert themselves into the gospel and steal God steal God's glory in that process in Roman Catholicism is just one example of that and you may say but it has such ancient roots well what is that supposed to mean if what that means is there have been there have been streams moving away from the purity of biblical revelation from the start yeah you see that in the New Testament and that those things didn't just end at the end of the Apostolic age that's true too and that's why every single generation is called to F agonism I to agonize to contend earnestly for the once for all delivered to the Saints faith every generation has to do it every generation and every single time let's say let's look at quote-unquote Christian Europe every single time that the church becomes confident we've got it we have established ourselves we we're in control we've got it within two generations apostasy is everywhere because the faith is not something that has passed on genetically we have to call every single generation to a living and abiding faith to agonize for the once for all delivered to the Saints faith to recognize the threats that exist against that and that's not just true about Roman Catholicism it's true about many of the attacks upon our faith today we may be passionate about it but we have to pray that the next generation and the next generation and God's God's more than capable of doing that I'm quite confident that Jesus Christ is still Lord despite all of the horrific things happening in Western culture where we are demonstrating our absolute hatred of the fact that we are made in the image of God I mean our culture hates that and so many of the things that we talk about almost every day that we see going on around it all boils down to the fact that when you are at enmity with God you want to suppress the knowledge of God and you know you're made in God's image and therefore you can do everything you can to a face and erase everything that reminds you of who you really are because you're not submitting to that God that you know is there that can take many different forms but that's what's happening so here's the point two things I I was a day late getting here some of you saw on my Facebook page that I think it was due to autofill rich just goes I'm sorry but my when I got to the airport fly out we had attached my ETA the visa thing sort of just a little tax to come visit y'all down here down under we called the kangaroo tax had been attached to my old passport I had to get a new passport I got into Russia earlier this year and the Russians want you to send your passport in and they send it back and they've used up a bunch of pages and I ran out of pages I've been traveling so much my passport revocation I had to get a new password look what the big thick month with all the extra pages in and somehow the old passport number got attached to the ETA instead of my new one I get to the airport and I ain't flying and so I I'm like oh man well we had built in an extra day so let's do the best we can and so I'm I've got to get home now and my wife's got something going on so I heard home I get in the car and my uber driver is Hispanic and that doesn't necessarily mean anything I just started telling about what happened what are you doing down there so it starts talking about stuff well halfway home he says well you know I'm I grew up in the Roman Catholic Church but you know after the sex abuse stuff I really started becoming disenchanted it's like let me tell you and so these are the things I shared with Jose you can pray for Jose Romans 5:1 therefore having been justified by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ having been justified by faith I told him the story about Mitch Pacwa and the question I asked Mitch during a debate we do and justification and January 1990 was during Operation Desert Storm I remember it clearly San Diego California wish we had the audio is still up - they never gave us the videos but I asked him if the greatest commandment is love Laura gaga hurts with all your heart soul and strength and if breaking the greatest commandment isn't a mortal sin then what would be a mortal sin then isn't it possible that before your head hits the pillow this evening you could commit a mortal sin and Roman Catholicism in mortal sin destroys the grace of justification which you get by baptism and then by being read justified when you commit a mortal sin isn't it possible that you Mitch Pacwa could commit a mortal sin before your head hits the pillow tonight and as such Mitch Pacwa speaks 12 languages he knows Hebrew he knows that the Hebrew terms Shalom means peace so when Paul says here have we have peace with God that Shalom true Shalom there is no Shalom in Israel right now as long as Patriot missile batteries are on 24-hour alert there is no Shalom in Israel Shalom is a wellness of relationship if that relationship could break down any moment that's not true peace so Mitch if you could become the enemy of God before you go to bed tonight how can you say you have true Shalom with God now he gave an answer at first that didn't actually answer my question so I got had the opportunity to redirect and I really focused in on it and the one thing I like about Mitch is that in his response so that's focused there was silence and then he said I don't know see most of my opponents would never say I don't know they'd come up with something maybe the dumbest thing I've ever said on the planet but don't come up with something he didn't he said I don't know no Roman Catholic can answer that question in a meaningful fashion because of the preceding chapter which when you read romans 4 4 through 8 paul says to the one who works his wage is not reckoned as a gift or according to grace what was owed to him so if you do work then if you see something back that's just simply what you're owed but the one who does not work but believes on him who justifies the ungodly his faith is reckoned as righteousness it's the faith that is not putting something in its hand going can I give you something can I give it 100 bucks 200 bucks what's it gonna cost me here's here's all the stuff no it needs to be an empty hand of faith that grasps the hand of God's grace that's his point there in Romans 4 and in fact so radical is that the Joseph Smith the founder of Mormonism when he came with his own translation of I which was not translation well he changed Romans 4:5 in his version - to the one who does not justify the ungodly called God the one who does not just finally got it he and did the gospel in his own version of the Bible but then starting verse 6 Paul talks about the the blessing he quotes from David the blessing upon the man to whom God will not impute sin now how can that be and I explained to Jose I said think about it in Roman Catholicism if you commit a what's called a venial sin which does not destroy the grace of justification to whom is it imputed it's imputed you that's why I have to go to purgatory is because the stains of temporal the temporal punishments of sin that you haven't worked off in your own life that's why you go to purgatory if you commit a mortal sin who is it imputed to well you and you lose the grace of justification you have to be readjusted there is no non imputation of sin in Roman Catholicism so I've asked you've probably seen if you want to want to see how this plays out watch the debate online between myself and father Peter Stravinsky's on the subject of purgatory because I asked him Rome is for a blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin who is that who's the blessed man his first answer was Jesus so blessed is Jesus because the Lord will not impute to Jesus Jesus as sin obviously he had never thought about that before so I said I think we can all agree that's doesn't make any sense you want to try that again these go it goes well I hope to be the blessed man someday that's the best they can do because there's nothing in their gospel they can explain to them the non imputation of sin they reject the idea of the imputation of Christ's righteousness righteousness is infused into you at baptism it makes you good that's why that's why Luther told the story of the dunghill in Roman Catholicism when you're baptized you're a pile of your pile of dung and see that Luther was an earthy guy and he told that story because that's how you fertilized your fields you picked up your cow's excrement you piled it up and it smelled because in the spring you need to spread that stuff out over the field so it would fertilize the field and you'd be able to eat so it was a common thing to see when the wind was going a certain way you knew right where they were and the whole idea is in Roman Catholicism when you are baptized you become a pile of gold and that's why you go to heaven is because God likes gold I'm not sure while I got God likes gold he made it but he could make all he wanted to do but it's gold and so you get to go go to heaven because you're made of gold and what Luther was saying is no justification does not turn you a pile of gold it's that first snow that covers over the offensiveness of that pile it doesn't change you but it takes away your offensiveness in God's sight now Luther was not saying that God does not glorify you and change you in sanctification but he was making the proper biblical distinction between the two and Roman Catholics love to mock that but here's the point you know I'm ago solecism when you commit a venial sin all sudden flecks of dung start to appear on the surface of the gold and so now the gold has to go to purgatory to have all that stuff burned off and if you commit a mortal sin what happens to you poof now you're probably doing again the worst thing is you don't know which one you are you can't tell that's why so often those who die within the Roman Catholic Communion don't have any assurance about where they're going even within their own system that's why it's important to know the difference between justification sanctification intimately related but they are different things you know me Catholicism they've been conflated into the same thing and that's where the problem lies so pray for Jose and if you're here today and you've never thought of the fact who is the Blessed man the Romans 4:8 let me tell you something any meaningful reading of the passage every single true believer in Jesus Christ is the Blessed man to Roman's for a that's what it means to be a Christian and if you don't know that your sins have already been paid for in the cross of Christ and that his righteousness has been imputed to you then talk to us let us introduce you to this wonderful gospel and this wonderful Savior who saves to his own glory and he doesn't share his glory with any other he has a powerful Savior okay with that the man who is if they ever come up with a way of genetically implanting the phone into the body there's your first map right there there's your first man he's going to be on the volunteer list thanks James look I've got about a dozen different questions and so we will clearly won't be able to get through all of them like I've just chosen I can talk about two or three okay as we reform people how should we view Mary especially in conversations with Roman Catholics biblically all all generations should call her blessed she was a wonderful servant of Christ she had great faith but the problem is what Rome has done with her is turned her into something that the Scriptures never ever describe her to be and have turned her into basically a savior alongside Jesus who's more who's actually more compassionate than Jesus is I could give you a whole bunch on that but I won't debt right now we shouldn't be afraid of Mary we are because of Rome we should not be afraid of Mary we should not be afraid to point to her but she was she was in the upper room to say nobody else was she was a disciple of her Lord and Savior and she in the Magnificat in Luke chapter 2 specifically refers to God her Savior it is an amazing thing to realize that even she was saved by the one to whom she gave birth second question what is the most effective way to evangelize a sick Euler Roman Catholic you know the Universalist liberal kind yeah well if you don't have to get them religious to get them saved then don't don't bother with that part the problem is so many of them still have filters functioning from their Roman Catholic background that are can be dangerous they can in other words the the onus is on us to make sure that what we're saying is being clearly understood by the person to whom we're speaking and if you know that there is a Roman Catholic background then the danger is when you talk about grace it's going to be it's going to be redefined in their mind as something obtained through sacraments or whatever else it might be we just had an incredible conversation pray about this to Jeff and I had an incredible conversation with a Mormon couple a week ago today in Salt Lake City they want out of Mormonism they know that it's not true but they just don't know what to believe and we spent an hour with them I'm really hoping that eventually you'll be able to get to watch that because they allowed us to record the whole thing and at one point at the end Jeff was saying you know we'd like to let you go be by yourselves talk about this pray about this and I saw something in the young lady's face and I jumped in and I said I don't mean to pray about getting a feeling I mean to pray that God would change your hearts like oh and she had been confused why because in the Roman Catholic but then in the Mormon mindset its she had reinterpreted what Jeff was saying as prey to get a feeling pray to find out whether Mormonism is true pray to find out what we've said is true that's and we were saying no no no no no that's not that's not what we were talking about and so there was a lens that was still functioning there even though there's a recognition Mormonism isn't true if it's what you were raised in it's still gonna impact how you hear things the same thing with Roman Catholicism so be careful you don't have to get them to become religious before you can address the fact they're made in the image of God they are at enmity with God they need to have peace with God you have to get into all the rest that stuff unless they bring it up then you have to deal with it how do you respond to Roman Catholics who say that Paul's issue in Galatians 2:16 for example specifically with works of the law done under the Old Covenant and so what he says doesn't apply to works done after justification right this is a standard Roman Catholic response that has been used ever since time the Reformation the problem is that when Paul himself is discussing these works of the law yes there is an element in which there are the Covenant signs that Jews boasted in there is that element of things but Paul himself said that the it was by the law that he had knowledge of his own that in the same in the same context of the conversation and so he didn't have knowledge of his own sin because he was circumcised he had knowledge his own sin because the ninth commandment said you shall not do this you should not do that or that you should tense men you shot covet so and so far that's the one he uses of himself and so he plainly does not limit the law to which he's referring to only as to the external signs of the Old Covenant but to the whole concept of obedience to God and that's why he frames his language the way he does in Romans 4 or 4 through 5 - the one who works whatever that work is if you think that you can do something and God has set it up to that by you're doing it you're gonna get something back from God you've got something in your hand and as long as you have that something in your hand you're not going to be able to grasp the hand of grace you've got to get rid of that and it doesn't matter what that is if it's it's a specifically the Jew who is boasting in his circumcision or if it's the Roman Catholic boasting and how many times he's gone to Mass and the last confession that he had it doesn't matter that's not the hand of grace do the Orthodox Church have the same theological issues as the Roman Catholics well can we consider them as brothers oh goodness or so much for getting through all 12 you said you could speak fast but speak well and fast or not all is the same thing the subject of Eastern Orthodoxy orthodoxy as in in general is one that I have avoided assiduously to go into simply because it requires so much nuance and so much background that it is the risk of being misunderstood is massive so here's here's the issue Eastern Orthodoxy is not just simply Pope --less Catholicism if you think that's what it is then you don't really understand true orthodoxy and of course orthodoxy has different expressions around the world Russian orthodoxy Greek orthodoxy and all sorts of mixtures in between we haven't we have American branch that isn't really true to either one of those things to be honest with you it's just smells and bells but orthodoxy does not have a specific systematic theology orthodoxy is mystical orthodoxy is Eastern Orthodoxy rejects both Catholics and Protestants they sting Protestants of the mirror image of Catholics they reject the idea of having things like canons and decrees and and and confessions and things like that because from their perspective the the liturgy and prayers of the church are the theology of the church now orthodoxy rejects sola scriptura and basically is found itself stuck in the 7th and 8th centuries where the tradition became formalized and the system no longer has any way of reformation or in or even reinterpreting those traditions which have now formed its faith so as I said if you ask an Orthodox person how are you justified that's not a category that they even think in and that's the problem because the categories they do think in have been derived from tradition and they become a very thick lens that really mutes the ability of Scripture to speak to them that's been my experience so on the one hand you have to say that the denial of sola scriptura and the positive teachings regarding baptism and things like that that are found in the traditions of the church are extremely dangerous they're sub difficult and very often lead to a very very surface level cultural religiosity that little resemblance to a living faith but there is because of its wide expression the possibility there was a patriarch of the of the Roman Church after the Reformation who embraced reformed principles and beliefs now he's been rejected by almost all and since then but the point is that I have had conversations with a small number of Orthodox people who took advantage of the freedom of the lack of a specific systematic theology outside of the Trinity by the way they are extremely Trinitarian I wish most of us were as knowledgeable the Trinity as many Orthodox people are but outside of that there's such a lack of concrete places to put put your finger on I've talked to a few Orthodox people that like that patriarch have seen biblical concepts and I have good reason to believe that they're actually truly trusting in Christ in Christ alone for their salvation but I've also been I've spent a lot of time Ukraine the Orthodox Church there you go there because there are certain places where the enter Gaia is and it's its folk religion it's it's not regeneration and dying to self and discipleship of Christ its folk religion and so there's such a wide manifestation of it that I avoid getting into it because it's just it's hard to get Western thinking people to start even trying to understand the category isn't which they speak to even ask the right questions so that's tough one sorry took up all the rest of the time so I obviously have more questions but we have a short break in a moment James people may not be familiar with these books and we have them in the books looks like they're designed by the same guy we were thinking of getting some of the elders here to sign them and give you a gift Spitzer can you tell us a little bit of thanks I would love that tell us about these books James this one took me longer to write than any other book that I did it's the guy who justifies now if you're into new perspective on Paul and T right and stuff like that I specifically say in here sorry that's not what I'm getting into what I really wanted to do is something more along lines of a modern updated Buchanan it's I'm functioning on a full doctrine of the inspiration of Scripture and writing this book okay a lot of people writing on justifications they are not that's just not where they are I think the doctrine of justification is truly seen most beautifully when it's seen as it is revealed in all of Scripture and many of those writing on justification they don't believe that Paul wrote half of what Paul wrote and so they don't have a real firm foundation to come up with something consistently this isn't an easy book the first eight chapters are you'll sort of go rah rah rah and then I get into the exegesis and the exegesis can get rather thick but I think it's important and if you've ever dealt with James chapter 2 there is a 34 page I think it's 34 page chapter in here on James chapter 2 because I felt that was absolutely necessary to deal with faith outworks is dead and so on and so forth so God who justifies and then scripture alone a smaller work not nearly as complicated as the justification book especially chapter 8 chapter 9 onward but I do deal with the Chicago statement on Aaron see the issue of the Canon alleged contradictions why should we believe that Scripture is sufficient and of itself and again I'm very thankful that my publisher has been it's good publisher to be with because they're there they have a long track record of keeping books in print for lengthy periods of time and I write on subjects that they really haven't changed that much in the history of the church so it's not like you know you have to really worry about it being different next year something along those lines so yeah those would be both relevant very much relevant and the Roman Catholic on diversity of course would be very relevant and my first book the fatal flaw and answers Catholic claims those first two books are also available on Kindle if you want to get a hold of those ancient works well I will save those questions and after the final session we'll see if we can create some extra time for those questions again but will you please join me in thanking dr. white for this first session you

Channel: Stanmore Baptist Church

Views: 73,980

Rating: 4.3957219 out of 5

Keywords: Sydney, Australia, Stanmore, Baptist, Church, Christian, Jesus, Christ, Alpha, Omega, Ministries, Apologia, James, White, Evangelism, Apologetics, Roman, Catholic, Catholicism

Id: NSh5vunw2yk

Length: 68min 26sec (4106 seconds)

Published: Sat Oct 26 2019