A Protestant Talks With a Catholic Priest

yeah Matt it's the 10-minute bible hour and I am a Protestant Christian who recently had the amazing opportunity to go and tour the Cathedral of the madeline in Salt Lake City Utah a man named father Martin Diaz showed me around this church is mind-bogglingly beautiful it's loaded with theological meaning from wall to wall and even if I don't maybe agree with every single point of the theology behind it it was still a hugely impactful experience for me I learned a ton it stretched me it was awesome but I wanted to do more and so father Diaz and I sat down and agreed to have a conversation about those key theological things that a Protestant like me and a Catholic like him typically see differently I thought it's a great conversation I'm really excited to share it with you so I'm gonna get out of the way and bounce over to that right now what's the Roman Catholic view of Scripture where did it come from what does it mean you who wrote it what would you tell somebody who's coming into your church and they say explain what the Bible is about to me so I think one of the things for Roman Catholics is that we are not a Church of the book so for us the church is first the book is second so we know that in the Old Testament I mean the Old Testament the Hebrew Scriptures have been given to us and in the Acts of the Apostles when they speak of the scriptures they're speaking of what we call the Old Testament and so the Old Testament is mostly written in Greek Hebrew Aramaic and what are the books of the Old Testament there's some controversy would you have those seven books that are written only in Greek and do they belong or not belong and for us what are called often the deuterocanonical books are canonical so there's 47 books in the Old Testament and we take the Scriptures the Hebrew Scriptures are the basis because we come out of the Jewish religion in terms of the New Testament with Catholics it is the community writing down that so the community is the authentic interpret scripture the church is the authentic interpreter of scripture so if we want to know what it means comes out of the church obviously inspired God is the author inspired by God but it's the the authentic interpretation meaning the interpretation is meant for everyone so you as a reader of Scripture can read the scriptures and understand it for yourself understand what it means for you it can draw you in to the Lord but in terms of yes definitively this is what this means or what it points to that would be done through the church okay which which I think points us right to one of the places where I think protestants and roman catholics see things a little bit differently and that's on the question of what is the church and and if I'm using the term right apostolic succession so apostolic succession has to do with bishops okay so what apostolic succession speaks about is that this particular bishop follows in line of what Jesus taught so what we see often enough in the Gospel story is that the disciples are the one who are who are doing the work so let's take the story of the feeding of the 5,000 when in the synoptic and it appears in all four Gospels so in the synoptic tradition Jesus breaks the bled bread blesses it gives it to his disciples who then give it to the people okay so what we think is is that that's done so that the people in the early church can understand that the Apostles are doing the same thing that Jesus did right because now they there are new Christians and they didn't get to see Jesus there they know people that knew Jesus okay they themselves never saw Jesus so how do I know that what Jesus wants us to do is what we're doing today and and then we use that in the ordination of each bishop in the sense that this bishop is in an apostolic line back to the time of the first disciples and at times in history it seems like there been like some challenges or some rough spots so that I think of the problem in North Africa that Agustin came to kind of clean up with the Donatists I think of the the Avignon papacy in the High Middle Ages how how do Roman Catholics how do you do with that part the parts where it looks like oh man which is the right thread to follow is the correct apostolic succession well the one that we followed was the right one that's yeah we think that's the one and I think historically we can go back and see that that was true there's a a phrase that that I think is pretty intimidating to a lot of my Protestant friends and it's papal infallibility which as I understand in the grand scheme of Roman Catholic history is a more recent officialized doctrine but I think one of the misunderstands misunderstandings about it seems to be that whatever a pope does is automatically right but I get the impression it's more nuanced than that how does papal infallibility work I want to say through God okay so papal infallibility is that in teach in a particular teaching on faith or morals a dogmatic teaching is to be considered to be true so that and what happens is is that there are theologians scholars on both sides of an issue so some people say this and some people say that and both could be valid explanations okay and so when it comes necessary to make a definitive decision then that that's use the use of papal infallibility say that this question is now settled is there some formal announcement that says hey this is really official yes okay so there's no guess where yes yes when we're speaking in this way versus when we're not right okay and what happens to the the old doctrine when that happens it's it if the official word is given is it required for everybody to come on board with that understanding correct okay so the Catholic teaching is this any other opinion would be contrary to the Catholic understanding Catholic faith okay and that's so so different than the way my Protestant brain is wired we're to a degree there's kind of just this endless wrestling that goes on and on it's on the one hand I don't know my feisty and independent spirit kind of likes that on the other hand I can see the appeal of also just hey we're not going to spin our wheels on this for two millennia we're gonna land on this point we're gonna move forward know why Rome why why not so in Rome was the patriarch of the West so Rome was the government capital of the world at that time and so why God chose Rome I don't know he probably likes it he likes Italians yeah so you know there was of course the patriarch of Constantinople the patriarch of Rome the patriarch in Alexandria the patriarch and in Antioch but the West was centered in Rome Peter seems to hold a really unique place of honor in the Roman tradition I mean I think he's always Peter James and John there you go I think amongst Protestants like I think he's our favorite because he's I mean he's a guy who rightly identifies Jesus as the Christ when before that only a Canaanite woman and a demon have got it right and finally it's Peter and gets this thing right Jesus seems to really affirm him getting that right and then get behind me Satan and and then that and so you've got this guy who's a bumbling disaster part of the time but he also walked on water for a minute but also he's the one who said I'd never ever ever ever leave you and then like two seconds later he does and so for Protestants I think he's particularly beloved because like us but I sense it in Catholicism there's something really uniquely appreciated about him making that confession where does that factor in I think people point to is the key the keys of heaven so that you know whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven and and the keys to the kingdom so we when we imagine heaven it's st. Peter that's got the key to the game yeah this little notebook and everything exactly it's a computer now oh is it it used to be a big book okay now he's gone digital of course and so that and coming out of that and so if he has the keys to the kingdom then he's the first of the disciples and that but historically what happens is that Christianity moves to Rome and so the Roman Church that of Rome ends up spreading to Spain well what becomes Spain what becomes France what becomes Germany Poland you know up above up above England Ireland and that you know so those are huge masses of people that now in terms of numbers the Roman Church is much larger than the other Egypt because it's it's more centered in a country and in our language so the Coptic Egypt or Palestine itself or Antioch or Greece much smaller fewer numbers so the Bishop of Rome kind of ends up politically more powerful and and that's what that turns into what we call the papacy so if I'm hearing you're right I'm I'm hearing a theological rationale for Peters connection with Rome maybe I'm just filling in the gaps there myself I'm hearing a historical rationale for just the way the missionary impulse of Christianity naturally moved was off into Europe the Gateway to which would be Rome I'm hearing a political rationale that is people already had been looking to Rome for a few centuries as a seat of authority and even when the capital gets moved east in the 3rd century there's still this mindset of Rome as being this unique position so that's interesting I didn't expect that tittered eyes in Rome so I'm okay you know so it's like he's getting so special he dies in Rome and so over time his successors take on more authority and to what we would have today and the assumption that is that those keys are transferable correct and that the authority of Peter is transferred to the next Bishop the next overseer Bishop overseer of the community of Rome which is one organization high priced but we can't we don't you know we put a lot of how we see it today back to you know the Year 63 or 65 or 80 I mean there you know and in language they were in mud huts compared to what we're doing today you know in other words it was very basic yeah and and not as ornate and not as built up I mean it takes centuries to get to where we are today obviously enough so within Protestantism then it makes sense that ordination is is an ordinance of the church but not a sacrament because we're not handing on a you know an apostolic succession that must be unbroken like but that explains to me as I'm sitting here listening why this is one of the seven sacraments within Roman Catholicism so you haven't gotten that right you have to be ordained with someone who has that portion of the spirit so the spirit is transferred from one person to the next and and it's when we take speak about discipleship I mean it's a form of discipleship and thus the value on tradition which which doesn't just mean like you know habits and stuff like tradition really so we comes with your tac big tradition or things that are passed on and this is this is kind of how what we believe and what what we do okay little traditions are like customs okay you know that people do it this way or that way as we were talking before about the making the sign of the Cross oh yeah and then I'm doing seeing their cross like that that's a little teak tradition okay so you don't have to to follow that and it's you know so you don't have to kiss your hand or that but big tea traditions are passed our teachings that we pass on from one generation of this they're not dogmatic teachings in the sense that it's you know the divinity of Christ or the humanity of Christ oh sure well the Creed old stuff yeah so it's not the Creed but a tradition our understanding of how things work okay so where does canon law fit into these categories canon law is different okay okay so canon law is the compilation of the rules that we follow in different situations so there is the first code real code of canon law is in 1918 I believe 1918 yeah I think that's the first one oh and the second one is 1983 what would they do what were they for drawing on it well before every place there was there were there were laws and canons but they weren't formalized into a book so every place has rules how do we do this what's required in Italy they do it this way and in Germany they do it this way so now we're going to decide how we're all going to do it the same way okay so it is more uniform now since 1918 right and that Canon Law has to do with what like church structure church organization it's an organizational there are various books and there are laws on the sacraments so this isn't where you're formulating like a theology of salvation no no no this is about this is all administrative okay in one way or the other okay that's how I'm they trying to make it a little more spiritual in 1983 okay but it's basically a a rule book well I guess I used to the question I was just bringing up there then I how does one how does one become a Christian in Roman Catholicism how is one forgiven for their sins in Roman Catholicism how does one go to heaven and Catholicism for us all sacraments are from God so it has we only respond to God so there is no sense that you were doing anything okay yeah so yeah we de Graaff often in baptism of babies I tell the mom and dad it looks like you drove your child here to church okay but in fact God has chosen your child for the gift of baptism there are thousands and thousands of people that were born at the same time but for some reason God has chosen your child for the gift of baptism so it's always God who moves first mm-hmm so at an ordination right an ordination right you are not ready for ordination until the bishop chooses you so there's a little ceremony in the beginning of the ordination right where there's a dialog and is this candidate prepared do you the people who this seminary school recommend him for the gift of priesthood yes we recommend him he's a good candidate the bishop says I choose you for ordination to the presbytery order and then all the people applaud because it's God choosing that person it's not me it's God who makes the movement so for an adult though we make them go through a process for two years so God chooses and draws people in they ask questions we have a program called inquiry so they come as a group sit talk probably six eight weeks and it depends on person-to-person prison who's never been baptized or person who's baptized in another faith community ask questions and then when they're ready to move to the next step they become catechumens like in the early church and their catechumens for about a year and a catechumens studies more formally learn this learn that ask questions in that and then just before easter they become the elect so the bishop chooses them for the gift of baptism so they're elect and there's a ceremony for that and then there's uh in the six weeks of Lent prepare prepare prepare and then Easter they were baptized so Baptism Confirmation first communion and so it's a two-year process a year and a half year process of conversion of asking questions of making sure this is right for you as an adult so part of it is your adult decision okay then that and the responding to God's grace okay that's an enormous process as a ton to think about people are receiving guidance through that process and then what is the transaction that occurs what happens spiritually that takes someone from a state of not being redeemed to a state of being redeemed so that there's that so it's the it's the intellectual and the heart conversion and I think part of that is not the redemption part is cut it's getting to know the universal church community so often people are drawn into a particular church group because of the music because of the preaching because of the friendships they made so part of the the process of initiation is to say though it's great you know you're getting to know this community and being drawn into it but it's a unit you know so if you go someplace else you're still a Catholic okay and you you belong to the universal Church okay and it's not just about you and your redemption it's not just about you going to heaven it's about you being a missionary disciple as Pope Francis would say are you willing to share this with others or are you willing to do a liitle life that is different than before and again I mean it's not like everybody who's not baptized as an evil person but doing that publicly being able to publicly declare your faith before others so do people get baptized twice can never be baptized once you're only baptized as an infant only unless you decide later in life baptized in another church community you cannot be rebaptised so so so if somebody came from my church where they were baptized like here they are already in history okay so confirmation becomes a sacrament of initiation ah okay another Catholic Church okay what role does what role does Jesus play in salvation what is what did the cross do where does that all fit in so Jesus dies on the cross every sin is forgiven it's Redemption I mean for the for those who everyone so also doing an eight billion 12 billion normally however any billion people and if there are aliens on other planets okay they're saved by Jesus again you know it's just there's only one Savior it's Jesus how did it happen he died on the cross okay that's it everything flows from that the death of Jesus so it's all focused on the death of Jesus and I think sometimes that we we have to look at that and realize how horrible that death was and how difficult it was for them to be and see that criminal death of Jesus in it and I think part of the death of Jesus as such a a rejected person is indeed it is every rejected person is redeemed by Jesus there is no one that's left out so mmm no one is is not - all he died for all no not everybody accepts it not everybody wants it and you know what happens to those who say I don't want it I think if so the Catholic Church teaches that there is hell but it's not necessary that there'd be anyone there okay but hell is people who have known God and love God and rejected that very difficult so very difficult to know God love God and hate God and reject that but I mean I I believe that it's possible for people to know God into two walk away from that I mean oh god deeply and choose to do otherwise this is called apostasy I mean I think it's called sin okay I think it's it's just it's people who for whatever I mean and and only god can judge so in the Catholic Church the Catholic Church has never judged anyone to be in hell so we do not say that Judas is in hell we do not say that Hitler is in hell we don't know because only god can judge only God and God judges every person individually for the gifts that you were given if you were never given the gift of Christianity you cannot be judged by that so what does the resurrection fit into this whole equation so Jesus dies on the cross of course and rises from the dead three days later truly rose from the dead nothing they just thought about it send a nice idea not a metaphor ke8 walk talk glorified body so and I think that of course is eternal life for us so when we get to heaven we will have a glorified body as Jesus had a glorified body and so I think what it means for us is is that that we are physical beings and it's our physical being this self that is resurrected it's a bodily resurrection but I think what that means is that the kingdom of God the reign of God is not just in heaven so it's not just about going to heaven but it's the reign of God here now in the present so we are meant to be the reign of God here now in the present this is the kingdom the kingdom of God is here hmm so what does it mean to be a Christian so it's not about going to heaven okay to be a Christian means that you're going to bring God's will to here thy will be done on earth as it is already in heaven right so what is God's will for earth God's will is that we would be sisters and brothers all seven billion that means we got to live at peace with one another that means we've got to love one another we have to forgive one another so what does that mean in terms of boundaries and walls what does that mean in terms of climate and caring for the earth what does that mean for the people who live halfway around the world that you know we vilify it means that they're my brother and my sister so how do we as Christians work to make sure that everybody's our brothers that everybody's welcome all are saved and so we're the the icon of that presence of the kingdom now is the way that we live with one another so it's a real deep responsibility to be a Christian it's not about you going to heaven yes you get that yes it's about you bringing your Christ you are another Christ bringing Jesus into the world by your works by your actions by your living we all do it that's why we have confession because we're all sinners we all need to be renewed and converted we all need to be changed we all need to try harder and do better but to be a Christian means forgiveness it means love it means compassion and we have to be about that if we are those disciples this has been awesome I've learned well thank you so much the most water she ate upon it for me I found this to be incredibly profitable I hope you did as well I am struck by the dignity and wisdom and grace of father Diaz in agreement and in disagreement and I find myself wanting to emulate that in my travels on the internet and the real world as well last thing huge thank you to you for being here and being up for a conversation like this I know some of you were Catholics and parts of this video things that I've said yeah they were kind of tough for you to sit there and stay quiet and process through thank you the very fact that you're still here is an act of grace and decency and I respect it I know there are Protestants I've heard from you who are like what why didn't you get after this thing or push back on that thing well it's not the exercise but you know what even if you might have wanted to do it differently you're still here - thank you I respect that some of you are here and you don't even think there's a god but you care about what other people think you care about other people's ideas and I hugely respect the fact that you want to be a part of a conversation like this you're all awesome thank you they're a handful of people who are awesome in a truly mind-boggling way to me because they support this channel at patreon.com slash TM BHS where you can do this if you want to you can actually go in kicking like a buck or two per video and make stuff like this happen and there's a group of people who are like hey we want to see more things like this happen on the internet we're gonna get behind it and frankly this is happening because you exist otherwise I couldn't pull this stuff off I just couldn't swing it so thank you thank you thank you if any of you who are watching want to jump in with that you can do that at patreon.com slash t MBH if not no sweat just super glad that you're here alright I'm at is the 10 minute Bible hour let's definitely do this again soon

Channel: The Ten Minute Bible Hour

Views: 574,973

Rating: 4.9025564 out of 5

Keywords: Roman Catholic, Protestant, Catholicism, Reformation, Purgatory, Papal infallibility, converts to catholicism, protestant converted

Id: rbAQGvuoXwk

Length: 27min 23sec (1643 seconds)

Published: Fri Aug 09 2019

Reddit Comments

[u/Ardeet]

It’s truly a joy to see actual, open and civil conversation on topics as deep as religion and spirituality.

[u/FaradaySaint]

Why arent these posted on r/TheTenMinuteBibleHour?

[u/IchBinMaia]

Firstly, congrats Matt, great video. Father Diaz is a very intelligent man and he gave great (and correct) explanations to your questions,

HOWEVER, he failed on one topic and sort of left suggestions on another:

@21:43 No. This is the ridiculous "dare we hope all men be saved?" view, it is was made famous by Hans Urs von Balthasar and it is completely wrong.

It's true we can't know who's there, but the Catholic view is that THERE ARE PEOPLE IN HELL. I mean, all you need is one (I think it has to be unrepentant) mortal sin and you'll be damned. Now, if you committed a mortal sin and don't wanna go to hell, it's pretty easy: go to confession and confess that sin (and all other mortal sins) to the priest. He'll give you absolution if he sees that you're repentant and you'll walk out of that confession ready to die. It's a great feeling. 12/10 would recommend.

​

@24:24 "boundaries and walls [...] climate and caring for the Earth" I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that he's talking about the immigration issue on the first part and trying to support the Pope on his so dear cause for the climate on the second.

1. LEGAL IMMIGRATION: 'tis fine. 'tis legal. 'tis great. Do it if you wanna immigrate.
2. ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION: No. It's wrong unless it's in a refugee situation. No, they shouldn't be treated as they are being treated in the US, that's inhumane, no human should be treated like that. But they ^{(illegal immigrants}) also in the wrong, illegal immigration is, well, illegal, and countries have the right to sovereignty, which allows them to refuse immigration and have closed borders if they wish to do so, especially when the immigrant does not know (and even more if he's not willing to learn/follow) the language, the customs, the law, and the religious heritage of the country in question (which today would only really be a problem to Mohammedans). In short, open borders is bad. I should note that I'm not American and I do not live in (or have ever been to) the USA, this is Catholic teaching, which both the Bishops and the Pope seem to forget sometimes.
3. EARTH ISSUES: Yes, it's important to take care of the Earth, it is the planet God gave us, but it can't be put on the pedestal the current hierarchy ^{(I'm looking at you Pope Francis}) has built for it.