Keith Walker Manti UT 2014

trusting exactly trusting that the work that Jesus did what do you want is good and if I can't use the word example or model or whatever else what do you call it if I can't use those words to follow him I'm saying the whole concept is wrong he has set the standard he has set the path this is that is the way if we trust him like the terminology trust and follow if to use your phrasing because all my phrasing is wrong so if I start the club if I trust him and follow the mark which is basically following his example right you know England right need to agree to disagree on dictionary turret definition but if I trust and follow him what am i following if I can't have this righteousness you can't have your well-coordinated mormon here according to my Mormonism I want to hear according to what you're teaching them okay Jesus teach me so I want to hear a coating to you and what you believe okay great Jesus cutting the whole Mormon theology crap I know my own feel like I said use it against me I'm not trying I'm not trying to use it against you I'm trying he's recording me oh no okay you ain't gonna move me but that's fine that's fine am I allowed to he's just record the cameras only on me he's not getting you in at all the only reason I keep referring back to Mormonism is so I'm trying to make a bridge so that you can understand what I'm saying because we keep using the same words with different times or different breath - you know I don't even know what you believe so that you because you're not really convinced me or even giving me anything that what I believe is wrong or than what you believe is wrong you just keep saying according to Mormonism and then we hit this wall where I don't let still don't know what you believe I let you know is that I can't use the word example or gift for the whole world or the whole concept alright let me get let me get there we get there with with what I with what I believe the Bible teaches yeah Jesus is not my example for me to follow so that I can be righteous that sucks he is my sacrifice to give me righteous and the ultimate sacrifice so that you would have a rake back so that your righteousness would not be for nothing without the atonement without his crucifixion and his resurrection without the atonement your righteousness wouldn't have any way to get back right what had to be through his atonement and his atoning sacrifice and what you do following that sec but following that more like you said you're not forgiven yet because you haven't you haven't fulfilled what you need this has stood before God at the judgment seat right how can I be certain I believe the Bible says that I am forgiven right now and that I have present-tense eternal life I'll hold the full now a night see you got this whole entrapment your good trap mitt you ask me what I believe I told you about it I'm not saying okay so what is your different as far as what all my sins don't count against me thing wrong they don't count against me if you if you make amends for that sin or those sins and don't do them again don't don't commit them again that's more minutes and that's not what I do I'm just saying is that how are you forgiven for those sins if you do it again when when Christ died how many of my sins were in the future you believe you're forgiven for everything you've done and will do right now according to what according to scripture according to your works I mean your deeds according to know how do you how'd you earn that I haven't Jesus earned it for me so you seriously believe that because of Christ's life and his atonement and him coming down here and doing what he did you're automatically forgiven for everything you do if I place my faith in him absolutely right holy throughout that is the biggest get out of free jail card I've ever heard of and that off of all you had to do is believe in him believe in the sense of fully committing trusting for i committing trust I trust his sacrifice weekly all have fully pay for all my sins gotta believe I can't do anything it's it's not that I it's not that I don't have to what can a dead man do to save himself you're not dead yet yes I am by the year you're here to show God that you're willing to follow that example that that model that that white right we're gonna we're gonna go to Ephesians again this is Ephesians chapter 2 we were already in chapter 2 I hope the camera doesn't buy this because I think he is and he's gonna bite us I think he's buying me what you're buying I thought she did bite me i TV I think he's buying I just hope the camera doesn't okay it's here let's hope all of YouTube who gets to see this will buy it oh yeah so - okay so in you pathy quickened who were dead in trespasses and sins we're dead in our trespasses and sins what can a dead man do to save himself you can't pass you off according to the course of this world right remember when I told you we were not children of God nothing to do with people that correct their trespasses and sins through obedience through following Christ we remember the rest of the follow crowd why did he come down here and live the life he lived if we're not supposed to follow it why didn't he just sit in the lawn chair sipping mojitos and tell God I trust and believe what you tell me I'm healed he did and I will tell everybody that comes to earth the same thing they're healed he did what I couldn't do for myself so that I can get what I can't earn for myself why would he do that if he is because he loves me if he is a just and perfect God why would he do that it is just been perfect that is not just and perfect he pays my debt is that not he just your debt through your obedience and your willingness to follow him he paid my debt through his obedience not long had to be obedient in order to fulfill all that yes you're right but that pays for my sin but nobody none of us do you cannot trust and believe in him without words will faith without works is dead yeah it is you cannot say that you trust him that he says hey that's her profession he took your sins and the sins of every mortal being on this earth right on himself right so that he would know how it felt and know what you went through as your personal Savior right to help you along the way he did not do it and then just say trust in me and bam you're safe you're healed for God so loved the world that whosoever his own believe it that's right you're finished the rest of it but you have to follow him you have you can't just trust and believe where is John 3:16 say that be done for God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth on him should not perish but have everlasting was James the liar when James said faith without works is dead know James is youth you find let me let me answer the question he out of believeth in him maybe you gotta do is believe and the answer the question and then you quit when I bring up James faith without works as I'm trying to answer that I'm trying to answer that you haven't yet and I brought it up that's cuz you just cuz you won't let me answer keep throwing Mormon theology at me I'm not go throw Mormon theology I hope no my uncle it's alright I know you do you you've been very honest with me James is talking about empty professions of faith where does it say that if you read the whole chapter breathe breathe sorry James wine start reading gathered that James is talking about empty professors because he says a man can say that he has special how without showing God that you believe in him is you're just you saying you believe in him an empty profession does God know your heart that is his empty and Hollow as it gets as God know your heart whoa so then he doesn't need to see your works really if he knows your heart Christ had to prove himself why don't we Christ had to prove himself did he not come down here and have to show exact obedience Christ was God that we could follow that model that's what I mean it it's an example you're talking about example oh now that's a whole that that's that's what you're saying that's what you're saying without using the word okay give me another word I've tried model example laughs it's all the wrong concepts it's this it's the difference between a gift and a reward no it's not it is showing that you are literally in belief proving your belief showing him showing him through your works through your efforts through your deeds through your service to God and evil men that's you are following Christ all of which are filthy right although belief or this hollow status that's what James is saying that's what James is saying hollow belief doesn't count that's not what James said James said without bully or without works faith is dead can I read James too good all right it's not gonna change you cannot stand here and tell me sir that if I do nothing but believe that I am saved trust not just not just a Mentalist sense you can't throw trust in there and sugarcoat it and Church it up any better no that's what the Greek means the Greek is talking about a full committee means what I'm telling you should is you cannot you cannot receive all the gifts of heaven and the gifts of God from just saying I trust and believe you're exactly right by just saying it you've got to really mean it and that's what God knows your heart that you really mean it God already knows whether you mean it or not what the thief who died on the cross did he have a chance to show it what did Jesus say of him today you'll be with me in paradise and that was an example of what but that was an example of trusting without the ability to do any works I think that's a pretty good example you've got a thief on the cross who can't do anything for himself he trusts in Christ and Christ says you're gonna be with me a paradise Tom that he'd ever had a chance to receive religion we don't know that scripture doesn't say so we only know we only know the end part which is important that is a pretty fair without diving into the scriptures because I know you and I both know we could find the in the school I just told you the answer he believed in Christ and Christ said you'll be with me in paradise both know that he probably never had a chance before I'm not talking about a thief on the cross next to Christ the last man I'm talking about modern-day mm-hmm how many people have met Christ back then and realize doing what he was not many come on all right and they didn't know who he was we have got church after church all these Christians for helping people come to Christ I mean let's face it we're all unified in one aspect we're all trying to bring people to the realization of trust and the fact that he did live he is the savior of the world but we have a difference in what he's done we have a difference in what he's done all right different side well that's all of it I mean that makes whole lot of the world if oh is now people are hearing having a chance to hear having a chance to find god to find christ right and you're gonna tell me now that it's the same that I don't have to do anything I just have to trust and bathe I'm saying you know that he's going to know my heart I'm saying you can't do anything you know you do realize there's a huge difference between desire and righteousness okay so if you strongly really desire that that gift as you call it I wish the video could have got your face there that was a gift as you call it right that that that desire I you're interpreting that desire to be good enough that God knows your heart and you are saying your forgive God gives you righteousness God doesn't give anything for God for to love the world's you believe that you gave just now just a shallow verbal agreement no not the shallow verbally you're telling me that how do you know that God is forgiving you and God has gifted on I have an example how do you know that has he told you when do you to hope to be married sooner than later sooner than later do you believe that this man is going to stay committed to you for the rest of your life on a shallow verbal profession are you gonna turn it around like that does he know we do use over every day I feel you trust him I work do you trust him right so you you trusted that let me finish worse thing every day through my works but how does she know that you're not gonna change after marriage how does God know that you're not gonna change God knows everything I don't believe you do your heart get were your works he sees you God doesn't have to see my works to know what I'm gonna do really no he's you don't have to get dressed I can't prove myself how I can't prove myself so you're telling me that I'm getting my transitions in your heart that is enough for God to gift you forgiveness if I get lost yeah do anything no you just have to say it in your heart what did you do that to you what did he do to earn your life he shows you you don't love him unconditionally that's the question now you love him unconditionally which means it doesn't have anything to do with him you love because is that your intern because you want certification of unconditional that's really no conditions no conditions no conditions God loves us unconditionally otherwise he wouldn't be perfect gives us a gift that we either accept or reject we can't earn a gift otherwise it'd be a reward so it's just given to us yes and it's offered you either accept or do is interpret my own sincere heart and I've received it God does that God interpreter he has them did he come tell you beep yes yeah in his work I'll show you no you're using scripture you personally you told me I had to come to Christ yeah personally yeah myself yes so without any scriptures or any ancient prophet telling you for you okay how did God come to you personally and tell you that you have earned his forgiveness I haven't earned you the forgiveness because your heart is sincere enough to deserve it because I was lost I came to him and said I don't know what I'm doing with my life but I'm making a mess out of it and that was enough I'm gonna give it to you and you do whatever you want to with it and that was enough because I'm alone for the ride forgiveness the scripture says give everything he did through the atonement if I believe and I have the son then I have eternal life I really want to show this first to you because I don't want you to believe me I want you to believe what the scripture says feeling I'm getting though here as many times as you before James and then when you finally brace James verse face without works is dead you interrupted me you told me that it was just a hollow yeah I was talking about hollow do you want me to go back to James or do you want you to show you what I really want to show you okay go ahead okay I didn't mean to cut you off it's a good discussion it happens you know yeah okay this is first John good luck with all those chapter five no III love this discussion you are so honest I appreciate it actually I am more excited now to get up there uh-huh and end all this and get up there right just so that I can grab your hand you have to keep your end of the bargain I have to you're going to be my spirit missionary and oh you bet your ass buddy I'm gonna pull you across alright make you keep your end of the bargain deal alright but before then up before that happens this is what I hope of you okay anyway she done things this is from down here when you get there this is God's testimony I know how important your testimony is this is God's Testament but again to my head and I wouldn't do that that's great this is God's testimony okay this is for for if we receive the witness administers first John 5 9 through 13 if we receive the witness of men the witness of God is greater for this is the witness of God which he hath testified his testimony of his son he that believeth on the son of God hath the witness in himself and he that believeth not God hath made him a liar so I either have to believe God or not if I don't believe God I'm saying God's a liar I don't want to call God a liar okay because he believeth not the record that God gave of his son so I don't believe what God says I'm calling him alive and this is the record so this is what I have to believe or I'm calling God a liar this is the record that God hath given is that past present or future tense half given he has already given past tense god hath given to us eternal life and this life is in present tense his song he that hath the son present tense hath the life present tense he that hath not the Son of God hath not life these things I have written unto you that believe not work believe on the name of the son of God that you may know as far as this whole just believing and you're saved you're healed good luck for that my friend that's what it says hey we're all entitled to our own interpretation is that not what it says the interpretation set aside what does it say well I know what it says what does it say we just read it exactly then if you don't believe it you're calling got a lot don't tell me don't stand here and tell me that I'm calling God a liar okay I will do not stand here John will don't patronize me I'm not trying to pasteurize it don't stand here and tell me that what I believe is a lot if you don't believe the record that God can hear right now telling you that I believe every word of the Bible do you believe what I just read every word that you just read so do you have eternal life now I believe no I do not have eternal life right now then you don't have to sign up showing God I have not lived my life in accordance with Christ's example if you ought to play if you have the Sun you have Y finished my test if you have the Sun you have life if you don't have life then you don't have the Sun are you telling me I don't have the son you just told me you don't have life so that so literally literally you're telling me that I don't have luck and I don't have the Sun according to what this says yes sir I am telling you right now you know cut me off I'm not gonna cut you off before I am standing here telling you right now but God lives Jesus Christ as the savior of the world he is my personal Savior as every other person that lived here on this earth Dean this scripture is true the Book of Mormon is true even the Doctrine and Covenants is tricky every scripture every top everything God speaks and since through his prophets nor his scripture is of God and I'm telling you right now that these words are true mm-hmm your interpretation I do not agree with okay but I do know that these words are true right here okay for a fact and you will not take away from me what I believe I do know that I am here as a test to show Christ and to show God that I am willing to serve Him and my fellow man and I'm willing to follow Christ's example through my works not just my belief not just my faith mm-hmm I have to literally live and do what I can to live as Christ did you follow his example you need to do all you can do to live the way that is best I can that he live and to follow his pattern while he was here on this earth mm-hmm so that I may in fact one day through his atonement and through his eternal sacrifice for me by taking all my sins upon me to better understand me and know me so that he could be there for me every step of the way in the guidance that I will get back to him and it's all dependent on what you do it is all dependent on my faith and my works right it is all dependent on how far I'm willing to show him through exact obedience and living my life as he did exact obedience exact OBT denying yourself ice all and godliness just like Christ showed up when he was here denying yours everything I did everything God asked him to do you all he was a teen but do you know anybody else who can do that that's why we're here is to show us to show our trust our faith I've never seen doubt I've never seen Christ who but I know that they live I know that they exist I know that he died on the cross for me I know that he is my Savior and I know that through his atonement I will what has he saved you from everything from your sins yes do your sins count against you of course they count against me then he hasn't saved you from know why I'm willing to show my remorse and show that I'm willing to correct and show that I'm willing to get back on the path of living a christ-like life here's what I don't understand Falls because we're human here's what I don't know that there is a test if we were not going to fall if we were not going to stumble if we were he wouldn't have put Satan here moving The Tempest to try and drag us off the path hmm but how can I show him if I have no adversity and I have no opposition because it's just a no-brainer there's nothing here to tell me otherwise but I just act like a drone and I continue on okay you've told me that you're not forgiven you've told me you're not forgiven and I had adversity great to try and drag me one way or the other and you're not there yet but the more I fight it and the more that I stay on the path of falling Christ's life my example then yes I will one day be forgiven of my sins ok go one day receive eternal life help me understand it and have help me understand this if you're not forgiven for your sins and help you understand anything because you don't want to let I really do want to understand this can I finish my sentence please ok so you don't want to understand it didn't let me finish the sentence if I'm not forget if you're not forgiven then in what sense that Jesus pay for your sentence the debt is still there I'm still sinning he paid for every sin I ever have and ever will commit that I don't even know about you but they're still counting against you because you're not forgiven with them great but I have every chance under the Sun to correct what I have done and stop whatever I could do by following his example and staying close to him letting him counsel me and letting him guide me through prayers he strips it it's all dependent on what you do right you just told me all I had to do is believe now you're telling me if it's all dependent on what I do know I'm agreeing with what you're saying ok alright yeah I don't all right yes you know let me clarify that I'm not agreeing that that's correct all depending on how far I am willing to go to show him yes I'm restating what you're saying I'm not agreeing with it I'm restating yes so it all depends on you yes so then in which sense is Jesus your Savior with because I can't do it without him it's all dependent on me to show him that I'm willing to do that so he's saying it's all dependent on me as far as doing it I can't do it without him I cannot do it without Christ I cannot do it without prayer without scripture and without church I cannot do it without religion that young I cannot do it without Christ it sounds to me like Jesus your your concept of Jesus but he kids do it for me is here to show him let me finish if I'm understanding you correctly it sounds like your concept of Jesus is more of a swimming coach instead of a lifeguard well you understood me wrong yeah I mean he's there trying to teach how to swim Christ did what he did and live this sacrifice he went through everything he did shows you how to swim that says you follow my example you do what I did and atone for my sins right so if you swim across the pool you get willing to deserve that atonement I can't just believe that he did it and I am safe I am healed I am forgiven I have to earn that forgiveness I have to earn that atonement what if you can't what if you can't earn if I couldn't he wouldn't have put in first Nephi what he did that he does not give us anything that he already knows we cannot how are you doing with that I'm doing better than most it is a day-to-day bill I do that is why I'm here it is my entire life you've got all the day I die right I will be serving him and I will be living his example the best that I can you asked me a little while ago if it's only up to me and all that I can do Christ cannot do it for me he already did everything he can do he took upon himself the entire world since mm-hmm he was atone for my sins so that I could live with him against who through his atonement I can't just believe and be safe I have to live as good as I can according to his life then I have to remind you of what John said you're gonna throw at me that you're trying to tell me that I think God is a liar by going one step further and saying not only do I believe but I have to live my life as Christ lived his he could forgetting its forgetting that you're trusting yourself he could have just told us rather than come down he did did he didn't why did he come down and do what he did he showed us he showed we couldn't do oh he did not had been paid they've been paid the sacrifice he showed us the path we have to take okay here's a perfect life which no one else can do we can't do it exactly but knowing that if we didn't have something to follow what would we believe in what is his standard words what would we believe in his standard his perfection no he set the model he lived a perfect life showing us how to get back which you cannot know I'm just telling us which you cannot doing this have you denied yourself along with Godwin yes we can't do it there's only one Savior there was only one perfect bean and that was Jesus Christ okay that came on this earth how many of the commandments do we have to keep all of them how often our entire life every day and if I don't keep all the commandments all the time that I'm not forgiving and that's not true you say are you saying you can be mistake you can be forgiven without keeping Commandments no I'm saying that if you make a mistake if you stumble along the way if you fall that's not the atonement you grab a hold of Christ perfect example you grab a hold of the model that he set in please and you correct yourself you get back on that path you know it's all dependent on what you do through Christ but it's all this atonement it's all dependent on you what I'm saying is it's all dependent on Jesus it's not about me I am dependent on Jesus but it is up to me if I follow him if I do everything I can to follow me that part is up to me let me give you an example I'll do it without Christ can they give you an example and the atonement pageants about to start right so I want to finish with one thing okay you get the last word and you're happy no no you can have the last word you can have the last word I just want to give to this I just want to get and you can look in the camera and buried testimony if you want to know okay you kids got everything I need all right there was a there was a tightrope walker in the early 1900's by the name he went by the stage name of blondie okay then what he used to do is put a tightrope over Niagara Falls then he would do all kinds of tricks you'd fry eggs run a tight one and the manager says who believes that this man Blondin could put a man in the wheelchair and push him all the way across Niagara Falls and the crowd goes nuts just like they're doing back there oh yeah we believe he can do it so then Blondin says who will be that man nobody does it they didn't really trust him I would need the manager but the manager gets in the wheelbarrow and is pushed across Niagara Falls who really believed I'm nine blond goons work trust another man that far but I will trust best Christ is that tightrope walker saying you can't get across Niagara Falls on your own you believe swim coach to a tightrope walk no it's from a lifeguard him and me from calling him a lifeguard no he's a lifeguard into a title do you understand my example she knows no boat do you understand my example that's real believe understand my real belief is getting in the wheelbarrow and letting Christ take you from one side to the other that's real belief you cannot I cannot just ride his coattails I have to show that so we have all right you showed you belief by getting in the wheelbarrow we're on the same page I'm telling you the same thing you had to show your belief by getting in the wheelbarrow from what I understand you to tell me you're trying to get across the rope yourself how when I just told you everything I do is because you're not getting in the wheelbarrow how am I not it's over because you're still trusting your own performance no you misunderstand me okay I am not trusting my own performance I am trusting that by doing the best I can to follow his example on their performance tell him that I believe I'm going to show him and that's what you're trusting by living my life as best I can according to his life I'm getting in the will boat and that's what you're trusting me right I'm getting in the wheelbarrow by living the best I can according to the way he lived okay I can't if if I literally get in the will bow I have also showed my belief I haven't just told him what can you do them in a wheelbarrow you can't do anything right it's all so it's all Jesus that's why I told you it's all Jesus not just gonna pick you up and push more much is dental leeches he's gonna hold your hand so now I've gotta follow him on the tire here you but you will have to show him your belief I'd rather rest in the wheelbarrow of course you would easier that way no otherwise yeah yeah it's easier to just say hello God rather get in the wheel barrel just rest oh I'm not saying you bet I'm trusting in him alone gonna show him I'm gonna show him how much I trust him and how much I believe in him by living my life in accordance of the way he lived his life you're trying to get it trying to get across on your own no I'm not because I can't do it without the life that he lived I cannot do it without him and his example well as you've seen Mormons trust their own works/righteousness Eric came in probably about 45 minutes into the hour and a half conversation and this guy just could not understand the concepts of Jesus's sacrifice his his atoning sacrifice not as an example but as a substitute substitutionary atonement he's not my life guard or he's not my coach my swimming coach he's my lifeguard I'm drowning I'm dead at my trespasses and sins Jesus comes and saves me and as as Andy kept saying he believes he has to prove to God his own worthiness and the Bible's very clear that if we don't trust the righteousness of God provided to us through Jesus Christ he's not going to accept our own righteousness which is as filthy rags so a very spirited conversation a very good conversation he was very honest with me and didn't play any of the word games that a lot of the Mormon apologists do today but this guy is is homegrown Mormonism he's a he's a rodeo cowboy and that's what Mormons typically believe it's not what's coming out of BYU it's what these guys have been taught for four decades they're trusting in their own works based righteousness instead of the works that Jesus did to give us his righteousness so that we can have a righteous standing before God the Father and that's what it's all about that's what we Christians do when we come to Manti is we want Mormons to see that by trusting in themselves they're only going to be lost he asked me flat out if I believed he was going to hell and I told him as respectfully as I can say it yes sir I do but it's only because you're not trusting in Christ alone you're trusting in Christ plus whatever you can add and God's just not going to accept whatever it is that we think we can add to the sacrifice that Jesus made for us so I hope that this video was enlightening and that you understand some of the differences between what the Bible actually says and what Mormonism teaches thanks for watching you

Channel: Eric Johnson

Views: 4,901

Rating: 4.7362638 out of 5

Keywords: Mormonism, The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter-day Saints (Religious Organization)

Id: NT3CyeRfPBE

Length: 34min 41sec (2081 seconds)

Published: Wed Apr 01 2015