Keir Starmer, Will Hutton, Alastair Campbell and Sonia Sodha on How To Remake Britain

[Applause] great well uh thank you so much Connor it's an absolute uh Delight to see so many of you here in this beautiful uh venue tonight I'm really pleased to be here to discuss what I think is an incredibly important book I think it's going to be very important uh for the next Labor government if and when it arrives um we've got our author here tonight of course uh will Hutton will is an economist he's also former editor of the Observer the newspaper that I work for the world's oldest Sunday newspaper uh and we're very proud that he still uh writes a column for us and his new book is called this time no mistakes how to remake Britain and he'll be um here signing copies for anybody who would like that at the end of the evening we also have aliser Campbell who is Tony Blair's director of Communications and strategy um but he was there between 1994 and 2003 and of course he'll be a very familiar voice uh to many of you as co-presenter of one of the UK's most popular podcasts the rest is politics so it's really great to have Alisa here as well uh chipping in uh with thoughts on the book but first of all will I'd just like to ask you to give me the elevator pitch for the book uh when you say this time no mistakes what what exactly are you talking about well there's two sets of huge mistakes I think that have been made over the last well uh 45 years uh first lot was to do with the Revival of free market fundamentalism laser Fair economics in different gues which led to four catastrophic errors uh the monetarism Mrs Thatcher the excessive Financial deregulation led to the great crash uh then austerity then brexit and bookended by Liz truss and uh uh all of that was um informed by um a view of the world that has been kind that the Brits invented in the 19th century worked a bit in the first half of the 19th century but by your time 100 years ago my great hero mayard Kane said let's kill uh laay Fair the end of laay fair and we thought we had done it uh with the c with the ATL government it was revived by Mrs Thatcher putting individualism at the center of the moral economic and social universe and that led to those calamities but the second mistake uh was actually that um the liberal left didn't have an alternative philosophy to really counter it um the LI party was found in 1900 it never really settled on what its kind of ideology was ex wanted to promote the worker interest and one part of the book is to kind of say well actually there's an ethic of socialism which has worked kind of for all time time I think it's pro-social uh and I trace the antecedence of it and there's Progressive liberalism that was worked out at the end of the 19th century the 20th century uh which led to the great reforming government of 1906 1914 and actually these two themes on uh in Progressive thought the ethic of socialism Progressive liberalism should be brought together to form a kind of a philosophy called the wi Society uh less I more we more Collective effort uh but combined with and recognition for individual agency individual responsibility and as I was writing the book I stumbled upon uh the clause for labor party which actually that's what has to do and so uh in a sense this time no mistakes I I want a decisive break from the world we've been in I want to move to a high investment economy I want the uh the public sector lead that I want the investment system uh savings to be refashioned to support the private businesses that will be crowded in by that I want that to lift real wages and productivity I want to bind our fractured Society together and an agile state to pull it all together so I'm calling for uh if we have a labor government kind a decisive break from that and uh this time no mistakes both in repudiating that philosophy that's kind of led us I think to the Past we're in and striking out any you there you are that was thank you for that incredibly picky summary that was a very big build it's great well will that was I think there's one man who's going to really matter in terms of creating the type of society and economy that you envisage in your book aliser I'm sorry it's not Rory Stewart um he is of course the man who the polls say is very likely to be on next prime minister what do you think both of you should we ask him what he thinks be great is he here excellent well ladies and Gentlemen please put your hands together for k s the leader of the opposition [Applause] [Music] I bet you weren't all expecting that I actually did ask here before we came on stage today whether he's ever been the surprise guest at an event before and apparently it's a it's a first time for him now we haven't got k for very long because he's got to get back to the commons for a vote on Rwanda which is obviously incredibly important so we're going to make the most of the time that we've got with him uh K but first of all I wanted to start off by asking you would have Escape your attention I'm sure that your beloved Arsenal uh defied expectations uh and suffered quite the drubbing uh last night uh what lessons do you draw from that I'll be straight on this at the shadow cabinet tomorrow to remind them that however far you think you are ahead you've got to keep fighting like your Five Points behind all of the [Music] time but it is I I can I say it's really fantast thank you for that welcome it's really fantastic um to be here this is a brilliant book um by will my friend um just as the last book not the last book The but the state we're in was a fantastic defining book of its time now we have another one um coming along if you haven't read it read it it's an incredible intellectual historical political read with some really really strong themes in there um and it's obviously I mean you know when when will told me what the title was I thought this is this is s of pointed to me and said this time no mistakes I could feel the weight of well coming down on me but it's a fantastic book it's a really great book read it if you haven't already that's a that's a brilliant endorsement I think uh K so one of the things that's quite Central to Will's book is your idea that the place where we found ourselves it's not just as a result of decisions made by conservative governments over the last 45 years years or so in fact labor governments have got something to answer for as well what did you make of that aspect of the book well I think it was really fascinating and I do think it's worth us just reflecting on previous labor governments um so that we can look forward I hope to uh what I hope will be the next Labor government um and there there are always things to learn from previous labor governments you should never ever seek to Simply remodel what what went before that doesn't work each government is created out of its own circumstances its own conditions and has different challenges but there are things to learn there's the basic and obvious ones that um we can go into before we get to each of the government the first is to remember um that you know bwing an argument by some about what happened in the 20s we've only won from opposition three times in the entire history pretty much of the labor party only three times we did it with Atley obviously in 45 we did it with um Wilson okay sort a couple of times over but it was one Innings um and then we did it in 1997 we don't win from opposition very often and we achieve absolutely nothing when we are in opposition I came into politics pretty late in life having done other things having been a lawyer done lots of international cases run a public service worked in Northern Ireland and I've now been nine years in opposition and in opposition you do do not change lives for the better so the first lesson is you got to win an election you've absolutely got to win an election I think what binds those three put those three governments together each time 45 64 97 the labor party glimpsed the future um and took people to a better place and there's a real lesson in that particularly at the moment because I think the mood is pretty pretty Grim I think in particular terms the atle government told us that we can be we can build we can actually change things and lay down foundations for a different kind of society that in that particular case lasted for a very very long time um what the Wilson government I mean there's lots of lessons from the Wilson government um obviously but um amongst them is that you can do a lot of radical things um you know particularly what was done about decriminalization of um you know the criminalization of homosexuality what was done on all those Li big liberal reforms the death penalty all that work that was done was hugely important in terms of defining who we are um as a society um and then in 1997 um through for 13 years massive Advance um for so many whether that was workplace um Advanced equal rights whether it was sh start lots of things which we forgot to celebrate then after 2010 for the best part of a decade so there are things to learn but each of those governments um you know could and perhaps should have gone further and I think this is Will's um Point absolutely um and you know if you look at um but more importantly made a decisive Break um with this um Atley did it um Wilson attempted it uh Tenny made a an tny B made an accommodation but didn't really kind of I think fled from it really uh it's down to an incoming labor government this time to kind of get this combination of ethical socialism and Progressive liberalism right to refashion British capitalism so it works for the common good to as some call it building a floor and a ladder simultaneously yes I think that's right and I think it's important that we meet the mood of the country and I think the two go together at the moment um the mood across the country you will be aware of this is very very flat people are genuinely scared about the condition they find themselves in almost everybody knows that nothing is working better now than it was 14 years ago whether it's the Health Service public services the welfare state uh the economy and how it's not working um almost every measure of leveling up has been utterly failed people got this sense that everything is broken but it's not a 1997 moment I'd be interested in Alisa's views on this um 1997 7 that song things can only get better really resonated with the mood of the nation I don't think the nation's in that place at the moment I think people are worried they're anxious they've lost the belief that their children the next generation will necessarily have a better life this is a terrible place for the soul of the nation um and the two biggest challenges we face I think in terms of mindset going into the election of that group of people who say I quite like what you're saying here but everything's so broken I've lost faith that anybody can mend it that's a sort of it's a terribly sort of defeatist but it's very deep rooted or others that say after 14 years of this um I quite like what you say but I don't believe a word anybody says anymore um and those are the two bits of mindset that we need to meet I think that leads me to Will's point which is I am personally convinced and um really interesting people's views on this that um we've got to have a Missi driven government that sets out to transform the country so that we can hopefully take us from where we are now have an ambition not just to fix the short-term problems which desperately need fixing whether that's your waiting lists um in the NHS whether it's the NHS dentist that means you dentist um deserts that mean you can't even get an appointment got to fix the shortterm but we've also got to fix the fundamentals now and that will require this is where I think there's some really interesting stuff in Will's book uh this idea of an agile State a state that says we are going to frame what the future should look like we are going to have a sense of mission and long-term change that will sustain us through in the end I think it'll have to be at least a decade um of change because I don't think it's possible to do all of the change that's necessary one one five year ago okay that brings me on very nicely uh that brings me on very nicely to my next question which is that one of the things that your critics sometimes say about you is um they're not clear on what would motivate you uh as prime minister and I've been listening to Louise Casey series for ag4 um and one of the things that she said uh when she was Tony Blair's homelessness star was that during Tony Blair's first term there was a real sense that Tony Blair's mission to cut rough sleeping was a driving force and you know everyone in the cabinet knew it everyone else was uh behind it so I was just wondering um for you as prime minister what's the one kind of driving thing that would get you out of bed in the morning when you're a number 10 an economy that works for everyone which is fair for everyone drives real equality where people have security because we don't have it we haven't had economic growth of any meaningful sort for 14 years um and we certainly haven't had economic growth everywhere that is me measured in the living standards the security and the hope that um people need across the country so getting the economy reset and working functioning growing um and not just in some parts of the country I do not want a model of growth that says London and the southeast does the heavy lifting and redistribution is the sort of onew answer for the rest of the country we have to build a model for the economy that works for every single place and then things hang off that and people sometimes say well that's um you know um not as uplifting as saying something about rough sleeping or whatever it may be I think it's completely uplifting because I think it's the Bedrock of everything else now there are part there are five missions I've got for government only five because I think we haven't got the bandwidth for anything else growing the economy is the number one if we don't turn the economy around um we won't have um the wewi all to take our country forward the other missions ladder up to that if you like so we've got clean Power by 2030 this is hugely important going to Renewables by 2030 it's really difficult to do by the way people say to me there's no difference between you and the Tories or you're not being radical enough try getting to clean Power by 2030 Renewables across the board by 2030 almost everybody says you can't do it it's obviously important for our Net Zero contribution but also it's lower bills it's security so Putin can't but his boots on our throat and it's the Next Generation and the generation after that of skilled jobs that go with it can I just jump in on that though because one of the really clear themes um in Will's book is the need for more investment and the need for more public investment to leverage in the private sector investment and how that is the engine of growth to the economy but I think some people will look at Labor scaling back the green investment plan and look at the projections which show now actually that labor labor levels of investment would be a bit higher than a conservative government but not significantly higher without that public investment how does labor deliver on growth well let me first take on the 28 billion question because a lot of people will have their views on that um what I set out was clean Power by 2030 and we have costed every single thing we need to do to get there and we're keeping every single one of those commitments so the commitment for clean Power by 2030 is exactly the same as it always was the investment I agree we need investment which is why we've made that commitment that that's why we want the vehicle of GB energy a publicly owned company that makes the investment jointly um with the private sector but gets the yield back to um our government to our taxpayers um from that rather than it going somewhere else but it's got to be agile it's got to be clever an investment can't be a dead weight it's got to do the work of um acting as a catalyst for the private sector there are no end of businesses that say they want to invest in the UK but they're not going to do it at the moment because our economy is too unstable because we've had five prime ministers in the last 14 years because they had four chancellors the year before last that makes a massive difference so this money that we want want to invest has to be agile and clever and it needs to um unblock every stage of the journey for getting to clean power and it's not all about money just bear with me for one second I just want to give you this example because it's tattooed on my head um um one of the things we're going to have to do for clean power is to have lots more wind turbines that's offshore wind turbines and onshore wind turbines so we can get to clean energy I asked the CEO of an energy company um if we were trying to achieve our mission how quickly could his company his business build for me a wind turbine farm and he said I could have it up for you in two years Kia I said oh that's good he said you won't get any power out of it for 13 years because we'll lose five years to planning and once we've lost five years to planning um which takes you to seven years we'll then use another six years because the grid won't won't start crawling towards the wind farm until the wind turbine Farm until you show it's ready to be connected up it's utterly ridiculous and broken that is partly about money it's also about having Clarity of what the government has to do to to sort of bulldo through the sort of change that we want that is unsus sustainable scunthorp steel works is another one they want to go to an electric Arc um uh furnace which will produce GLE green steel it's fantastic thing that they can do the workforce and the management have said they can do that by 2027 the grid has said they'll connect them in 2034 so there won't be scor steel works we'll lose that facility the job of government is to understand that and to drive through that and make sure that we bring about the ch that we need for the country I want to just um a couple of un say no my one criticism of Will's book it will surprise none of you to know I think he's very harsh on the new labor government of 1997 which I think was one of the great radical reforming governments of history but there we are um I I I I think that kier's right in everything he says apart from this thing about the mood yes I think people feel very kind of grungy and very down but I think it's partly because this government has made us feel like that and I actually think there is a there is a yearning for that hope and positivity and I I what what I like about about Will's book is the fact that he's he's kind of Taken on the whole sort of the thing about factorism and where I accept from will I think that we were sometimes a little bit too spooked by the whole sort of fer thing and you you say Tony made an accommodation I think there is now the opportunity to make that radical break actually to kind of rewrite history what the Tories have done incredibly well is rewrite their own history and it's falling apart we're seeing it fall apart now and I just think there's it's wide open now for a really confident reclaiming of Social Democratic Values Social Democratic policies and a country that is yearning for really really big radical change I don't I mean I certainly agree with the analysis that this government has beaten the Hope out of people it's a terrible thing to do to a country which is um to take the country in 2010 a former government and to leave it 14 years later in a worse State than you found it doesn't matter which political party you support that is unforgivable in politics it's been done and because they want to distract they've beaten hope out of everybody that anything can possibly be different because if you've got that kind of record you have to pretend that nothing can ever change nothing could be different so you beat the Hope out of people I think we we need to build that hope I don't Sher from this Challenge and alist and I have discussed it many times as you can imagine and quite rightly so we do need that hope but that hope needs to be absolutely with the feet planted in the ground it cannot be a hope that people do not think is realistic which is achievable on the foundation and and so we yes we need to build the Hope part there's no doubt um about that and set out in clear terms the change that we want to bring about a decade of national renewal is something you might hear atly saying about the change you want for the country a decade because it's going to take time um National because it's got to be across the whole of the country and bring in everybody behind it and renewal because it's not just about fixing it's about changing for the better but it does have to be rooted in the sort of what I call the sort of you know working class everyday hope um that I think um is needed what we can't do is simply try to build hope around the idea that we can suddenly change everything in a hurry because we can't um and we won't be able to and that will just I think impact even more deeply on on the lack of hope that people have it's a it's an ordinary everyday hope that we need to build that is solid in its foundations and seen in its results and I want you and everybody on that subject of Hope can I just um come in and ask you about young people and labor off for young people because a really important part of Will's book as well is this idea of the wi society and a social contract and I think young people today they face some of the highest housing costs in Europe the middle a middle earning graduate will uh be repaying on average £50,000 worth of student debt they don't have Define benefit pension so it feels like for young people they're living in a world where there's now an existential need for family wealth that's going to be terrible for social Mobility so what's Labor going to do about that that aspect of the social contract first let me acknowledge exactly everything you've just said because I think that um for the younger generation now it feels harder than it's been for a very very long time for all the reasons that you um say people are carrying huge debt they're having to go back under with their parents after college or university they're unable to get a place of Their Own it's very difficult even um with a degree to get a decent secure job at the end of it something which used to be a sort of given and one of the things that um sticks absolutely in my mind is the fact that statistically more young people today are going to have their their Futures determined by the income and salary of their parents than their own talents 2024 uh Britain in 2024 after 14 years of this government that has to change completely and that's why not held back from saying we need to smash the class class ceiling it is a class ceiling that we absolutely have to push to one side looking again at our schools and our curriculums looking again at our colleges our technical colleges making sure that we celebrate uh The Vocational as well as the academic um and give young people the skills and qualifications that they need um for life and the hope that they need of that secure job that Foundation the ability to um you know be part of something that is a we I mean I I need to go back to vote on Rwanda because I want to go back and vote on um Rwanda because the ripping up of the we part of our society the constant Division and enemy finding is killing politics um it is drawing everybody apart um we've got seven votes actually on Rwanda um tonight so we're going to be absolutely at it from you know 8:00 um onwards but that that stripping of where the Wii is really it's as significant now as it was under Thatcher because this divide the woke the division is all about trying to say you believe in this and I believe in that you believe in this you know you're an enemy of what I believe in it is deliberately destructive and pulling apart any sense of what we have in common and that has to be defeated uh I think that's really important for young people as well finding their way navigating their way a sense of um Collective um identity um and purpose that is being Stripped Away and it'll be really bad in this election by the way because this is a government that can't go to the electorate saying what a brilliant record we've got uh you want more of this don't you these are all our achievements they couldn't do that they can't say it's been pretty tough but we had fantastic leaders surely you want us to continue so they'll go low and they'll go into this divide divide divide there's one um it's shameful really here I am north of 7 I discovered rich Tony the great ethical socialist and his book on on equality and he quotes um Francis Bacon uh as saying um there's there's uh no use for muuk unless it's spread around wealth is like muuk it's no use it's spread around and I I entitled the chapter after that I just wonder what you here we are in a society with these amazing imbalances of wealth and where the yield from the uh the wealthy is to tax yield from the wealthy is actually proportionately less than it was uh kind of 40 years ago I mean what's your view on that I mean I mean philosophically you don't have to give us a kind of something it's going to kill you in the election but I mean philosophically where are you look redistribution is a is always an integral and important part of any labor project and any labor government there's no doubt about that um there's no pretending that they haven't busted the economy we're not in a 1997 position as far as the economy is concerned and it is utterly busted and what they're doing with the budget and what they'll do with the financial statement if they get that far in September is to burn the available money that could be invested in public services before an incoming labor government if we get that far has the chance to do it that is the absolute um you know example of party first country second that they've got to now they're not even trying to act in the National interest they're literally acting in the narrow party um interest so we do need that but will there is there is we've also got to um create the wealth in the first place uh and that we are not doing as a nation so yes redistribution is very important always is to any labor government but there's a bigger problem at the moment and that is we are not growing our economy and we are not it's not as if it's even growing in a way um that is um you know good in some parts of the country not in others it's not growing meaningfully any where this is then felt keenly in parts of the country that feel um that um they haven't had a fair share they can't influence what's going on um that phrase Take Back Control was so powerful in 2016 but for a reason that went Way Beyond any technical question of EU membership because people around the country started asking themselves do I have enough control and over their personal finance they said no I can't make Ken's meet over control of their own communities they felt no over what happens with their politicians they felt no and we have to address that sort of burning sense of Injustice that's there across the country and turn it around so yes U redistribution is always an important part of what labor does but we've got to tackle the central question which is we've got to have an economy that is growing and working for everybody across the country K thank you so much you've got to head off now because you've got the votes you were raising brexit as [Laughter] well I'm sorry I've got to go but we've got to go and vote seven times about this despicable plan that they've got on Rwanda where um they a court having ruled that um a place is unsafe for a government then to say we're going to pass a law to change the facts and say it isn't and in that law we're going to then say nobody could challenge our finding is something we absolutely have to challenge and goes to the heart of some of the things will touches on in this book thank you very much for having me thank you thank you thank you thank you very good of you thanks so much K thank you well so well that was uh quite the endorsement for your book I think um that's a bit taken a back I have to tell you I want to come to you first on this question um about growth and investment which is such a big part of your book and I think quite often um it's like a chicken and egg question when you think uh when you think about this question so um you know labor is saying we'll get growth and that's how we're going to um deliver for our Public Services it's how we're going to fix the NHS it's how we'll do things again like sh Sal Etc but lots of people would say well unless you fix the NHS and you push up rates of public investment you're not going to get the growth where do you think labor are on that question do you think they're striking the right balance or is there some magical thinking in there um I the core of there's so much going on isn't there in your question um I mean first of all I mean I do he didn't really I don't I don't think he really kind of grasped what the uh kind of um the Rachel Reeves maze lecture where she kind of recast the fiscal rules to permit her uh to borrow for public investment on a really vast scale um in my view um and behind that also sits something I talk about in the book which is slightly technical but it's about putting the public balance sheet behind institutions like the UK infrastructure bank or the British business bank and saying that we will take um the first 10 or 15 or 20% uh of any loss if a loan if a loan you make goes pair shaped that could be uh you could you could put the public balance sheet behind that and that could support 50 billion 100 billion extra of lending to the UK infrastructure bank they could really bloody go for it if they chose to and then they crowd in kind of private investment off the back of that and that means I kind of big refashioning of the way our pension system works the banks work and all the rest of it which again I mean there baby steps in in their position and at least they're B at least they're there if you put that together you could get um the investment levels in the UK which I think are about 100 120 billion a year less than they need to be uh compared with the average of our major competitors you could lift it by that amount and that would see a growth and an increase in tax revenues which would actually be what you require for the NHS and and and and I mean I I put that question deliberately about uh the Francis Bacon quote and I do think it's really you know wealth has doubled as a share of national income over the last 40 years and yet the tax take from capital gains tax inheritance tax uh council tax has kind of remained kind of derisory and one of the reasons why the tax burden is felt so high in tax National Insurance vat is because that's where the burden of the tax take is it's been and and actually refashioning the the tax code so that that kind of the better off and they the wealthy put a degree more into the common pot in the name of the Wii Society kind of plus the tax revenues you get from the kind of growth I'm talking about would really permit you to get serious about reform of the NHS um I mean I think is one of the things that I really gets to me um is the way that um if you're middle class and you want to go to university um there's a place for you and it's uncapped if you're working class and you want to train or you want to get an apprenticeship it's capped so workingclass kids find uh if they want to train find that demand the supply of places for them is capped middle class kids uncapped it's the kind of great kind of divide it's a class divide in the way we structure Educational Funding training which is kind of got to end again you can start to see the way to get the resource to close those kinds of gaps and I you know and as for social housing which is um I see Julian Richard in the audience here uh written a great book on housing I mean absolutely I mean uh We've sold four and a half million Council houses over the last um 40 years and not replac them and so you know the social housing stock in in the in the UK is kind absolutely the chance of getting kind of a council house or Council flat in large parts of the country the cues the weights and to move from one part of the country to another and to leave your Council flat is impossible and so you know you can start to see whether the wherewithal would come from to do the kinds of things that would kind of leave this um I think disastrous of economic and social conjuncture we're currently in behind so you are that's my answer great um you're a very clappy audience I love it um aliser do you agree with what Will's hinting at there which is perhaps labor are being a bit risk averse when it comes to things like wealth taxation could they be saying more ahead of an election or do you think they're playing it right very cautiously uh I think I think the answer can be yes to both in that you see I think it's really quite interesting when you you think if you think of Kia who's come you know he's now gone so we can talk about him very frankly no if if you think about it he's he's gone in a couple of years from a general sense around him in the labor movement in the media don't think this guy's got it don't think this guy can win two I don't think this guy can lose now it's quite clever that it's quite clever and now I would I I would like for labor as as I indicated to to have more sense of optimism more sense of possibility more ambition but at the same time it's quite hard from a political strategy point of view to argue against a a a campaign which has gone from can't win to can't lose how big is the majority going to be and so I think that I I think they can do both I think I think the I I'll tell you when do you remember the Harley pool by elction I did not that long ago in historical terms a labor lose the harleypool byelection there was all that sort of kafuffle about you know was he getting on with Angela Ranger Angela rer and was it you know was he GNA even quit this book that Tom Baldwin's written about K he's actually indicated that he was thinking about leaving because there's all this sort of negative chatter around him and you know K's my mp and he's a neighbor and I like him and he came around for a chat and he said this thing which has stuck with me ever since he said look what you guys did you had successive leaders successive elections and eventually ton the Blair one but it took quite a long time to get there and quite a lot of change I'm trying to do this in one term think that's all we've got and I'm doing in three I'm trying to do it in three stages stage one decontaminate the labor brand post Corbin anti-Semitism all the stuff that happened then stage two show that the Tores are useless and have got to go stage three set out the alternative now we're now in stage three we're now in stage three I'd like and he's done stage one and two pretty well and you could argue that list truss and Boris Johnson have helped in stage two they have accepted they have but at the same time you've got to hand it to the fact that their strategy does seem to be working where I'd like to see the the levers U is on the positive agenda and on this sense of giving people the the wherewithal the positivity the hope that says I'm going to go and get involved in that because I think that's what we what we need I think look the fact that you didn't even know he was going to come you've all come out to hear you and two old BLS talk about politics thank you somebody's got my book got my you can you can get that one signed up afterwards as well so there is there is massive interest in politics at the moment there's massive disillusion but I think that's where labor in this next stage I think really can get a mood going listen think of the joy I'm going to feel you're going to feel most of the people in this room are going to feel the joy at getting rid of the worst government we have ever known ever and then turn that and then turn that into something positive it's there it's there for the taking you're singing from The Observer hchi alista there you go um I want to ask you both uh what you made of kier's response on young people because for me I do look at some of the issues that young people are facing and it's kind of very it's very hard to see where the answers are coming from on things like housing on the awful amount of debt that young people are racking up by going to University um you know do you think K answer went far enough I'll come to you first will and then Alice well it didn't obviously did go far enough did it I mean um uh you know he has this strategy of um kind of minimalism kind of um doesn't want the kind of whole conservative media and political and think tank ecosystem to kind of take him apart in the next six to n months I mean and this minimalism has got into where he's got to an average in the polls of what 20o lead and and it's the old analogy of carrying a Ming vase and not wanting to drop it which was used for Tony and now is being used for kind of for K but I uh you know that said um you know the condition of I mean the condition of know 18 to 35 year olds in Britain uh I mean you put it all there I mean uh uh we we can't carry on kind of loading people with student debt and maybe with apprenticeship debt if that's the road you go down so kind of Finance vocational training and then expect them to become part of a proper democracy by supporting the mortgages to on house prices on a literally 140y year high in in London house prices are 12 times uh average incomes and we're watching I mean you can see it around here I mean it's not just pubs closing it's schools closing it's primary schools closing it's kind of you because people can't afford to bring families up in in kind of Zone one and zone two and that's going to it's a contagion so you know there has to be uh there has to be and the and the proportion I mean if you're 35 you're on average spending two fifths of your disposable income on on servicing rent or mortgage I mean it's it's so I mean I that that's why I saw what I said about spraying the muck around I mean council tax brutally for a London audience is too low in London um and it needs to be higher tell is not standing for election here can you uh well I don't know whether Paul Johnson's here for instute physical studies but he did he did he worked out for me that had he is great um we can if I've got this wrong Paul you must correct me but you know I asked I I I asked you what would what the yield would be um from property taxation um if the system in 1991 uh uh has still been in place and we revalued kind of residential property values in line kind of with the increase in property prices from then until now I mean it's astonishing that we're still basing council tax on revalue on 1991 values it's one of the reason why property prices he said 20 billion pounds um you know they kind of you can't get there in one jump but this is the the kind of this the kind of way we've got to think you know it's going to take a decade but we must do it because you know the you know people the the the Gat cons talk about the decline in the birth rate I mean one of the reasons why um kind of people you know are having smaller families or deferring having families until they're well into their 30s all the implications for the birth rate is because it's impossible to kind of live away to kind of live with someone you love uh in your own place and bring up a family I mean it's impossible we're killing our civilization with and the social housing story is as disastrous so you know I mean for me I actually don't understand sorry I've got a long speech there but I don't know what no but I think you make such an important point on social housing because the only time this country has ever built enough houses is in the 30 years postwar when we built significant numbers of houses with public investment as well as private investment and for me I just don't understand I think it's a no-brainer for labor as well as a green investment plan they should have a housing investment plan and they should say we're going to invest exp we're going to borrow to invest we're going to build affordable housing for rent for young people in City centers and we're going to give them guaranteed you know tencies for three to five years in their 20s so they can move somewhere where there were jobs I mean to me that just seems like a good idea no yeah it's a a great [Laughter] idea um and I think there's a chance that label will do that kind of thing excellent I'm going I'm I'm going I've just I've just been a couple of weeks ago I was in Australia uh and something very interesting happened in Australia recently which is that the labor government um got into Power defeated Scott Morrison who was a kind of you know Johnson type populist leader pretty Grim pretty awful drag the mood down like Kia was rightly saying the Troys have done here and one of the promises they made the labor party was that they would not interfere with Scott Morrison's three-stage tax plan okay he had this quite complicated tax plan they've had a budget and what's the first thing they've done they've gone back on it and what's the response been unbelievably popular now I'm not advocating breaking election promises something that we never did we had a Prett we had a pretty good record on that but it's very very interesting how that has happened because what they've managed to do and it may come back to bite them but thus far the Liberals their Tory party can't even bring themselves to attack this change because it's so popular because what they've done is they basically changed the tax system to benefit the less well off at the expense of the very well off now they've done it in power they got into power in part by keeping quiet about it now I hope that I think that what what K is trying to do is and I know that Will's here to sell his book but I really recommend Tom Baldwin's book on Kia it's a very interesting read Because and I'm going to ask you this as a show of hands okay you probably all agree with the tone of what we've been saying we' like more we'd like faster we'd like you know Bolder and bigger and Etc but hands up if you kind of get what he's trying to do you see yeah that's interesting isn't it yeah and so I I think that's we should live we should go with that and will um when we were backstage will was saying to me how do you get people who are disillusioned who think that labor is not perfect how do you get them anyway to try and stick with it and I know lots of people who are not happy with labor over policy a policy B decision C decision D but in the end we've just got to persuade each other persuade ourselves and each other that politics has never been a choice of two different forms of perfection at the moment it's a choice between as I said earlier this truly awful wretched government and something that can be better and so I think that I'm hoping the reason reason why I'm recommending Tom's book is because at every stage of kier's career and life he's kind of been a bit underestimated all the time and then he set himself some pretty big Ambitions and he's over always overreached and so I'm I'm hopeful that he's going to be more atly maybe than than Blair I think that'll be quite a good thing yeah and you'll approve of that I um I once said to him and he you know I one of the quotes I came across was Kenneth Morgan is a biographer of Atley and he went to see um uh kind of kind of went to see um Atley and kind of in the in the biography discusses kind of um what atley's idea of socialism was and Atley replies he uses in a TV interview actually uh that he gave in the mid-50s he says well I follow he said the greatest citizen of this bough William Morris um who said um socialism is fellowship and fellowship um is the life of the world the hope of the world and that's my definition of uh of of socialism and I think that K when he hears that kind of kind of immediately kind of thinks that's me he believes in fellowship and and I think he's also um he he he also believes in kind of um pulling the shadow cabinet together as a team um and and and he does have some he does have not atlete type beasts but he's got some quite good he's got he's got he's got a potential kind of cabinet that could be as kind of um gamechanging as the at cabinets were um and there's people coming through um who I think will get into the cabinet in a year one or year two of the labor government so I do agree with you I think there's um you know he's he's and the other thing that I that I think about um Atley and K is this and I make this point in the book I just talk about my book and not Toms um and um the uh the uh what adley's always seen as the kind of kind of socialist lion really the great socialist but actually he you know as his as his as his wife said you know well you know you know you know Ken talking to the biographer you know Ken you must understand you know um Clen was never a rabid was never a socialist or at least not a rabid socialist um and at that at he'd been half asleep um sucking his pipe Jered and she qualified lost the rid um but he didn't he didn't really caval in this notion when she went on to say that most of their friends were conservatives um and I think that um you know people don't get the kind of Labor government 45 to 51 I mean yes I brilliant people like n ban who was an ethical socialist guy but they were also kind of pursuing Keynesian policies who was a progressive liberal beverage was a progressive liberal a new liberal and he Blended this new liberal tradition Progressive liberalism and the beverage report is very because I mean it it's designed um to provide uh social insurance for all in a way we all know but carefully designed not to take away individual responsibility or individual agency or respons posil for your own life and actually Atley buys that so you know Atley is kind of blending Progressive liberalism you know with his roots in 1906 1914 kind of liberal government with the socialism that people people wanted after the war and blended it to produce this great reforming Administration which then in the 50s people like McMillan and Churchill himself who who himself was a new liberal for a bit of his career um kind of were prepared to kind of run with they built a consensus and I see kind of some of things he said tonight kind of I pricked up he and I put the point to him about um uh the Francis Baker thing about kind of wealth is like Mark he said he didn't he didn't resile from the notion in philosophic terms that labors about redistribution and I thought that's interesting and he uh he he also is he he wants to make an economy work for everybody he said he can't do that without getting a capitalism um where you know the stock market Rises so that companies like shell kind of aren't talking about relocating their quotation from the London Market to New York you know he's got you know he kind of gets this so I have I mean look you know um we're bound to be disappointed you and me but I think uh there's really grounds I'd much rather characterize where we are as the political glass being half full and potentially fillable if that's the right way I'm not sure that's right actually fible fillable anyway um f yeah I think fible yeah um I I need a good subor um uh rather than half empty and emptying so I you know I it was great you give him the Applause that he you gave him because I I kind of lift his spirits you know he doesn't he doesn't I don't think he doesn't get enough kind of Quasi neutral audiences like well we're lean into this absolutely I can feel the neutrality of the room it's not the labor party conference is it I mean far off hands up anybody who's going to vote Tori I've got one in the one one Brave man good well done sir um no but it's not it isn't Liv conference rather they kind of you know you got to St for three minutes every kind of you know no but I tell i i a lot of this depends on kind of what mood we're in so I could I mean Kier and I have had many arguments about brexit um I want labor to be far more upfront about the damage that brex is doing and the and the absolute necessity to meet growth mission number one to fix it absolutely right yeah um and I I I also I I I'm absolutely obsessed uh with this belief that and I felt it last week when the the the maale and the Tories were going mad about Angela Raina yet again I want labor to stand up and absolutely say that the restoration standards in politics and public life is going to be fundamental and I want them to do it and mean it and and likewise there is stuff in he he mentioned schools and the curriculum there's stuff in the curriculum that I think you can really really make some some big changes now is that the stuff that they're talking about no does that frustrate me yes but I'm you know been around long enough to know that provided you've got a sense and and I think more that you know I think the country is getting to no care in a way that it hasn't and it won't unless and until it gets into Power um but I think there's there's something in there that is kind of fundamentally decent and does have values and is tough and will makes the point I mean will writes in the book about you know probably most of you will know that I don't have a lot of time for much of our media present company excluded to hear it yeah but but you know it it is a it is a factor it is a factor we we danced with the devil and Kia's doing a bit of Dancing with the Devil and he's I would like him to commit to doing Lon part two the whole press corruption stuff he's decided not to I understand why I'd rather he did but all the time I think it's important that we're all kind of just a bit grown up about this and understand as he said if you don't get into Power you can't do anything you spend your whole you know life as many of us has done for decades kind of in frustration in Anger just sort of you know wanting the country to change but not being able to will it so I think it's it's more that even if the glass is only half full it's better than the alternative and it's the alternity we've got to help him get rid of thank you I'm going to open it up to questions in the audience very shortly so do um have a think about what you'd like to ask Will and aliser there's one more question I just wanted to put to you both first and will you mentioned beverage which of course brings us onto poverty and child poverty yeah' got Rising levels of child poverty almost a third of British children now live in relative child poverty relative poverty rather which I think is a stain on a country as rich as ours uh we've got a widening attainment Gap app at school um partly boyed by pandemic uh learning loss and last week we had new research from The Institute for fisal studies showing that in its early Incarnation sha start was actually fantastically effective at closing the attainment Gap what is labor going to do about child poverty and the fact that for children you know growing up in poorer households that will affect them we know for the rest of their lives in terms of their education employment and health um outcomes what do you think labor is saying enough on that no I mean look I mean I you know I don't I mean I'm going to end up repeating your questions son I mean I I mean but I we have a um the shortest fiveyear olds um in Europe um and there's attempts in kind of right-wing webinars to suggest that's because uh we've been deluged by kind of immigrants who are small um and they have we all know the reason the reason is is that the large parts of our cities I mean the levels of nutrition uh are kind of disastrously poor and and people's teeth are phenomenally you know uh kind of just decaying uh and the amount of dental pain people are going through is extraordinary and kids you know and I thought this Breakfast Club commitment by kind of Kier and team was a good one and it of course it got kind of criticized for being the nanny State um one of the things I do in the book is I talk a bit about Harold McMillan and um his book The Middle Way WR written in 1938 a Tory um who writes a book as in some respects as kind of aggressively radical as the state we're in or or or um this time no mistakes um kind of I was really taken back back uh kesan wants to really reshape the British Financial system and all the things I've talked about about how to get growth in 1938 but his big thing um is the impact of poverty on kind of life expectancy lived experience and just hunger uh and the impact having on people's lives and the illness and kind of and deprivation that that follows from it and so he want he wanted to establish a national nutrition board uh that would instruct every local government in the country to make certain every single family had minimal nutritional levels every day and he set out kind of what it would cost and what that would be I was just thinking of kind of what the a conservative put that on the table 1938 uh and saying that it was imperative to kind of keep democracy on the and kind of uh on the road and to kind of avoid the Temptations of going communist and all the rest of it and it was necessary to fight Fascism and all those things that you would think in 1938 but the reaction to it was kind of well that's not a bad idea you know spool forward to 2024 and the reaction to The Breakfast Club is kind of oh you know how dare the state intrude into into into family choices you know kids can arrive at School kind of uh six seven 8 n years old you know hungry that's fine um and I so I do think that the I mean there needs to be there needs to be that kind of thinking uh about you know our kids um and the as I said earlier I I the life chances of of you know it shouldn't be true that actually that your life chances depend so completely as they do in the UK about the from whom from whose womb You' sprung the the circumstan of the family into which you are born me I quote the great uh kind of American philosopher John rules you know if you if you didn't know who you going to be born to uh the good Society is one in which it shouldn't matter behind a veil of ignorance into which society you were born into we are so miles away from that in 2024 and it I I mean I I just uh you you you see the kids playing in the playground of of a of a primary school and you can and you think what what what's going to their life going to be like over the next 10 15 20 years what's my generation done to to kind of give them kind of the possibilities that I had growing up in the 50s and 60s you know so your point is well made and it would be great to see kind of the labor party picking up Alisa's Point kind of being brave about our children um uh in the way that you've described Alisa um one of the things that new labor really did was tackle child poverty through tax credits and redistribution and if you look at the figures um the average family in the poorest ESL so the poorest tenth of families with children has lost £4,000 a year on average as a result of conservative changes to the tax benefit system how on Earth can labor fix this without directing more cash at poor families a lot of that is in work poverty by the way of course as you all know yeah they can't they can't um and I think they know that um and this thing I think it's right that our our poorest children and our poorer than children in some of the poorest traditionally poorest countries in Europe um I tell you one of the things that's happened is that poverty and to be fair Gordon Brown's still banging on about this relentlessly and he's right to do so poverty has just kind of fallen off the media and political agenda I agree and that is really really dangerous because one it's terrible for those people that they feel that they're voiceless that they're not part of the mainstream debate and secondly I think that is further opening the door to the populists who will come along and say you've been let down by the the by the mainstream you've been let down by the main parties Etc so labor has got to put poverty right at the heart of its agenda again I'm hopeful that they will um and the point is you know it's interesting will mentioned the thing about you know diet and so and so forth and then we had exactly the same reaction you mentioned teeth W Street came along and said they were going to be you know teaching CH children how to brush their teeth now on one level it is absurd and obscene that we're even having to have that conversation but the truth is that we are having to have that conversation and that teaching kids the the value of dental hygiene is a fit and proper thing to do in schools and yet when that happened you had The Usual Suspects screaming about the n State the truth is we're going to have to have a bit more of the nanny State sure start was Nanny state in the eyes of those who criticized it and I've got to say I I welcomed Paul's report last week I thought it was a really impressive piece of work but the fact is getting rid of sh start is one of the worst acts of vandalism that this lot have done and it's because they didn't invent it but it's also because it's also because deep down I'm sorry to say this and I hope that oh is he gone he's still there I'm sorry to say this to the guy who's still going to vote for them I actually am afraid have reach the conclusion they don't they genuinely don't care about that stuff their their whole messaging is focused very very narrowly on a section of the electorate that they think put them in power that they think gave them brexit and all the stuff that's followed since then and I think it's utterly obscene that we now have we used to call it the under class we we now have a very sizable section of our fellow citizens who are just they've just vanished from the political debate and the labor party has got to get them back into the center of the political debate because again their growth Mission won't happen without them good point I would now like to open it up to uh questions from the floor I'm going to take them in uh threes I'm going to go to the lady over there first of all thank you there's a ring M that's going to come around she's the one with my book oh excellent that's not why I picked her got taste good evening my name is Colette hazeldine I'm about to launch a business called greenable .org which will give 68% of gross profits to animal environmental and energy vulnerable people causes and in preparing my business for launch I've looked at the seven Nolan principles of ethical standards and public life how to apply it to a private Enterprise and it's because I'm new to all of this I'm shocked at how little that is actually being adhered to in public office now I can't wait for the general election but why is it we can't do something now to force our elected officials to stick to those standards right thank you very much and then if you don't mind just passing the mic one forwards a Gentleman Just in front of you had a question I'm looking for one more question as well um all right great excellent I I'll go to the lady right at the back there uh in the white afterwards so yeah okay uh hi my name is Noah Hughes I've recently founded a think tank called the center for systemic economic thinking this question isn't directly related to our research but hints towards where we're going so tonight there's been a lot of talk about growth and growing the economy but Kier also observed that growth isn't felt by all does this mean we are looking at the wrong metrics and therefore policy is being Guided by wrong economic theory thank you and then lady in the white over there have you got a mic what are you launching oh she hasn't got a mic yeah uh so hopefully a labor government because I am standing in the next general election in thank you thank you so to your point both of you I'm out talking to people every day every every week on their doorstep every day if I could quite frankly and I see the change in their faces from absolute despair to Hope I see that move across their face as they talk to me my question is I have a plan for South darbishire myself I know that the GL party has a plan nationally but if we get into Power God willing if we get into Power how long do you think it's going to take for people to start to feel the benefit of it because there'll be this hope getting up to a general election and then there'll be joy that we've won the general election God willing touching words before people go from going uh you're all the same to oh my goodness I'm feeling this thank you very much um will I'm going to come to you first if that's all right on the question about whether we've got the right indicators of growth the strategy wasn't it economic theory economic theory yeah yeah but I thought you asked about whether we're measuring the right thing yes yeah um there's a whole and I good gosh this is I do discuss this a bit actually um I've talked about um this public investment but it's going to have a huge um kind of environmentally it's going a huge environment bias um I mean we have to um take uh not just the target for Net Zero but the wild wider ises of sustainability and biodiversity and all of that M you know fundamentally seriously but you can't get anywhere whether it be the kind of water companies or the the kind of grid uh unless you have the kind of resources going into kind of investment so uh I'm if I understand I what's happened in economic theory in the last kind of 25 years is that I mean in the 80s and 90s um the idea was that public borrowing crowded out private borrowing um because you know private business would do theit would do the investment and and they'd be deterred by higher interest rates of public borrowing crowded their efforts out that now been turned on its head uh we're now talking about the Elian proposition um um that actually public investment crowds in um bu business investment and the character of public investment if it's focused on leveling up if it's focused on particular kinds of R&D kind of Biotech and Medtech if it's focused on Environ you know a drive to Net Zero will crowd in the kinds of companies that doing that kind of thing and you will start to change change the kind of balance of your economic structure so that's how I that's I mean that's my answer to your question I guess and I'm just repeating myself but that's how I that's how where I understand economic theory has got to um it's a it's a kind of contemporary kinism um of course there are constraints to public investment uh of course you have to get returns from it of course it has to be part of these five missions that KIA set out but I you know I am really hopeful that that will will happen and happen at scale and to pick up the point from darbishire South darbishire how long will it take to come through look it needs to come through within two or three years I I I mean the I mean the politics of the UK at the minute with uh you know reform where the Tory party have got to uh kind of our politics of of of of hatred really um kind of emerging and and and europhobia um it's very dark and keeping that at Bay requires that this kind of policy framework that we're talking about kind of works and is and and actually starts to manifest itself within two or three years I mean the the buildup May will take longer it will take six seven eight years but I think that signs of improvement should be visible within 30 months is my answer to your question thanks will um I'm going to bring you in aliser in just a second I just need to say sorry to jump in that there are two mics on the balcony and if you want to ask a question you need to queue on either side and I will um come to the balcony after so Alex what well I'm I'm going to link the the other two questions um I think the answer about why I'm one of the those sad people who can quote the noan principles without looking them up honesty openness objectivity selflessness Integrity accountability and Leadership well done why thank you why why did I memorize those because I was convinced that the minute that Boris Johnson ridiculously became prime minister I was convinced that ultimately they were going to be his downfall and I'm glad to say I think I was proved right in that Johnson did not go because of the brexit he didn't even go because of party gay he got he went ultimately because even his own ridiculous party realized he smashed every single one of those principles why are they not more Central in the debate partly I think because labor don't make them more Central I think they they should and I hope that they will during the campaign I think they will uh but also because we do have the media that we've got just look at what's happened recently with Angela Raina an utter non stories as far as I can work out and yet newspapers which are ignoring sort of willly waving honey trapping MPS ignoring you know covid multi-million pound contracts to their mates ignoring 50 million pound donations that get you a period or a night I forget which which it was you know and yet we'll go for that so it's partly the media and it's partly the partly the Tories but I think ultimately it's about Labor saying we're going to put this at the heart of our debate the thing about um I think two two to three years is a problem that's why you see I think this stuff public standards uh changes that you can make to the curriculum there's stuff that you can do early on that signals change and that's what I said earlier about the the the joy that many many people are going to feel you've You' got to tap into that straight away by making change and a lot of it doesn't have to cost money uh if I think about some of the big changes that we made early on Bank of England was obviously a massive change Bank of England Independence uh now that was I would I would hope most people would agree kind of net positive to the economy net positive certainly to our political fortunes and then when you talk then about the getting the economy growing once that happens you've got to show that you are genuinely doing the things that you said you you were doing putting Flesh on the words so when Kia says an economy that works for all not just certain parts of the country that's going to mean something so what are we going to do about Devolution to the regions what are we going to do about more elected Mayors and all that sort of stuff which I again I hope will happen so I think I think that you it's not going to be Will's right the popular stuff is going to be very very diff you know you look at the European elections going on at the moment I don't think the far right are going to do as well as people say but they're going to do far better than they should okay now we in a way because we've got a pretty right-wing conservative government and you've got farage and reform hanging around as well we don't that that is our version of that problem but that problem with a labor government with a media that is going to be pretty vile about a labor government that is going to become difficult quite quickly so we have to be showing people all the time we're making change that is a benefit to their lives and um you know it's not going to be easy but I hope you win have we got some mics on the balcony now is that excellent so let's oh wonderful we can have our first question from the balcony um hi my name is Tuma I'm a year 12 student at M School for Girls I'm 17 years old and I'm also the young May ofar Hamlet and um I just wanted to quickly ask you said earlier that there has been a high interest in politics recently as a young person I severely disagree I think apathy persists in politics young people are overlooked and ignored by policy makers politicians ignore the elector and we have seen this recently with the public Outburst with the events in Gaza those in safe seats have no voice is it time for a change to a system of proportional representation thank you well I I think that chair was actually bigger than the chair you all gave here so that's pretty impressive really I'm going to take a couple more questions can I see some hands um great we'll go to uh the gentleman there with the sunglasses on his head sorry that's just the easiest way of identifying you hi U my name is Sam I'm 22 actually former student of yours uh will from back in the day all right welcome good to see you um yeah I know that uh Kier is looking at what Joe Biden's doing in the United States and uh specifically at what they're doing on the economy um but one of the things that is increasingly being pointed out that Biden might have missed out on is uh the Democratic renewal aspect of uh the reason why Trump was elected and I worry that debates around say uh reform of the House of Lords uh stuff like that have been swept under the rug by the cost of living crisis and do we need to focus on Democratic renewal as much as economic renewal great absolutely is the answer and uh one more question oh lady at the front here hi uh my name is Gabrielle I'm um old um I'm just concerned I'm just concerned I think the ter MD days I got my senior anyway um I think I understand where kids coming from in one point and something that alist said which is having been around the Obama Campaign there was this huge expectation set about we're going to win we're going to do this and we're going to change things and maybe we should set our sites a little lower and exceed them so from that point of view do you agree with that or not rather than going raah ra we're going to do this I'm going to do that in a 5e 10 year plan yeah all right thank you um so will I can tell you're salivating at the prospect of answering questions on House of Lords reform and proportional representation uh it's a big theme in the book I mean I know it is you're you're going to love the book If you if you um I mean look um yeah my book's written for young people peror representation um 1908 was a there was a parliament there was there was an inquiry on it it recommended in 1910 we should have propor representation in 1918 when the parliament act came through the last years of the first world war there was another debate in the House of Commons uh and there were there could have been a majority for proportion representation if ransy McDonald hadn't plumped for first pass of the post and it so it goes on and if you look at the course of the last 125 years consistently entation has thrown up a House of Commons who does not reflect the body of opinion in the country it could be 1951 when actually labor had the one the popular vote by kind of a some margin but didn't have enough um didn't win as you know the seats the House of Commons it could have been in 1929 when actually the Liberals and the labor party together kind of trumped the Tory vote and there could have been a majority for a much more surefooted reaction to slump didn't happen um and and and I mean the opposite the pr conferred uh in 1983 of um a second term T government and when actually the the then sdp and the labor party kind of outp the touris and how it goes on uh the time has come I think uh for us to kind of take the way we vote much more seriously um we can't go on with the most primitive voting system you can conceive of which is first pass the post and it Segways into the whole point about Democratic renewal that was made I mean if in 2050 um we are still with an unreformed House of Lords uh uh with nearly by then a thousand peers who have been appointed and it's and even if ritories get abolished I think they will probably be in the first year of a labor government but not much more there's no commitment to have an elected kind of um theed Senate that Gordon Brown called for you know we will live in a failed State you know this question of propor representation and and and and having a democracy that actually reflect our opinion that actually there's a Public Square where ideas like this can be exchanged and acted on is fundamental to the Vitality of a civilization so these are really really important questions and you know I try to drive it home in the book thank you yes Alisa are you as enthusiastic and also this point about um youth apathy which I think is very important as well no by the way I wasn't saying earlier that there isn't a lot of apathy there is a lot of apathy I was making the point I think there is also a real deep interest in politics at the the moment partly driven by the fact there's so much frustration about it and about this government but you know I know we're all on sort of Mega book plug but I I I I I I deliberately wrote my last book designed three books to buy no you you bu Wills tonight but I I I I I genuinely worry that if we don't fire up the Next Generation and if we don't Inspire them and if we don't make them feel that they should be involved in politics then I really worry about where our politics is going because the more that you leave the space to the kind of you know the populists then the more they're going to take advantage of that so I I completely hear hear what you say and and I agree with it I we're not disagreeing on the main point there the point about and and I understand why people feel so angry about Gaza and I understand why people feel angry about Labour's position on it again I can I try to explain to people why I think they're acting in the way that they do it's partly related to mvar strategy and it's partly about being clear about there's only so many battles that you can fight on the point about democratic reform and renewal I would like to see again I'd like to see labor put this right at the heart of it I'd like them to see I'd like to see them lower the voting age I'd like them to bring compulsory voting I'd like them to have proper political education in schools because frankly we don't have political education in schools unless you do a level and on PR I think I I blow hot and cold I'll be honest uh when we were in power getting very very large majorities on around 40% of the vote you know that that was a factor in our thinking where I agree with will I think the country is now ready for that change you won't get that change unless you put it in the manifesto labor are not going to put it in the manifesto so if he's talking about a 10-year process of national renewal I think that is a second-term project uh but I think it's one whose time is coming and I I think your generation's got to fight for it right we've got five minutes left so I'm going to take two more questions but I'd appreciate it if you could keep them really brief uh there's a lady over there um with her hand up do you mind just pulling it up again so that brilliant and uh and we'll also go to the gentleman right at the back so if somebody else in the roving mic can go to him afterwards that' be fantastic yeah he's walking away from the microphone now he coming back go go for it hi I'm fee I'm from South London I just want to talk a bit about climate change which has become one of the polarizing issues of our time now I'm from what I would probably call underclass backgrounds probably experiencing a bit of social Mobility at the moment um what I would say is that it really misses the mark like many of the things that come out of I think often middle class thought leaders not a direct it yourselves but just in terms of how this goes and one of the examples I was going to give keeping it really short is in my local area in pekham they're trying to introduce a cpz now this is causing a lot of uproar and people often come with very condescending arguments about end of the world doomsday stuff and your health from car emissions when really the people who have driveways are the middle classes and they keep their cars and the people who are poorer have to give up their cars lots of people that I know live on the States you can't even get a bike hanger and if you see bike theft in my area it's pretty damn high so nobody wants to get a bike so how can we make sure that climate policy is actually inclusive because it's stuff like that that opens up the debate to populists who then take advantage because we do need to think about climate change but right now it's not Equitable and we're not thinking of the right things thank you thank you I I wasn't the Tory by the way I wasn't the the Tory before uh I have a question that people who are probably too polite to ask cuz you're English but I'm not so I'll ask it will what do you blame the Blair government and your friend for what my you have to buy his book what do I what do I blame the black govern I didn't see where I well um keep which which should I do first is those the environment look I mean um only i i i clap with the audience I mean I I completely agree with you um and I think there is a um we need um to customize the this um kind of green policy so that they do kind of that they can be owned by the entire population you and your your point is well made I sometimes feel it myself actually um uh that said um that said I I mean my I'm not pushing back I'm just adding a full stop to what you're said um you know let's you know the climate is changing visibly in front of our eyes you know the wetest kind of what was it February and March on record kind of alarming kind of uh warming of Antarctica the the Arctic is kind of disappearing in front of our eyes kind of the glases in the Alps are kind of retreating at a pace that no one anticipated I mean actually things are much more serious than um much more serious than even some of the catastrophists were saying kind of even 18 months ago so you know you know for me um I mean my my I kind of agree with you and I think that it it behoves kind of if you like middle class people like me who kind of think these things kind of to kind of find a way of fashioning our response which actually simultaneously recognizes the urgency of what we have to do and by the way we give a carry on kind of giving a lead or being in the front rank of Nations giving a response otherwise others don't you know I retreating from a leadership position was a disaster uh so that kind of simultane but to reinforce that something must be done even while we cast it in a way that would be friendly to folk in peckam um and what can I say about Tony Blair what what do I blame him for I blame Tony Blair for two or three big things actually um I blame him for um not making a stronger case um for um the European Union and actually funny enough for Euro membership which I think would have been a good thing to have done um and being more measured about and being more I I should with Gordon about yeah so I blame him I blame him um for um not actually being not taking kind of re as seriously as I think he should have done um the reform of British capitalism and actually reconstructing the city of London which is there in the state we're in and you know didn't want to run with it but uh also I have to say the Iraq War um um I mean that was an occasion where the Europeans were right and the Americans were wrong um and it was kind of it was obvious actually um kind of in 2002 as we in the buildup what was going to happen and I think that he um uh David Milan made this point um kind of at the hay Festival last year where he kind of recounted he said it was a huge mistake because what's What Not only was it a mistake for kind of you know what it did to Iraq uh and the British lives that were lost and all the rest of it actually we screwed up we did we weren't very good at being military and we did we couldn't hold baser without the Americans and all of that but the big thing is that when you're trying to Rally the global South to your side um in the battle in Ukraine they just think well hold on a moment you know you said one thing over Iraq and other thing now you know we didn't we had double standards and it was it was such a Calamity at every level um we didn't have to do it we didn't have to sign with the Americans it compromised our position in Europe uh so for me of many of the seeds of what's gone wrong um uh since 2010 are due to those three things um but I would say this that actually In fairness to kind of um you know they did invent sh start and we did have three and a half thousand sh start centers in 2010 so you know you have to kind of calibrate your criticism of the Blair government I mean there were kind of real social gains alongside kind of big big errors do I I noticed we're we're on we're on 2031 um look I I can sit here all night and relitigate Iraq if we have to I suspect that people have probably heard me talk about enough in the past um I do really push back on the Europe Point um I think Tony is probably the most pro- European prime minister we've ever had um but the difference between I I think it was interesting listening to will tonight and I I made the crack earlier about you know you can tell he's not standing for election here uh you know part of that and I mentioned Gordon in relation to that so there's will saying I wish we'd join the Euro now we could have a massive argument about whether that was the right thing or the wrong thing to do we're can have a massive argument state to the euro now um but the truth is at the time that Tony probably was quite Queen to Keen to do that for all sorts of reasons politically it was completely impossible um now as it happens read my Diaries I was on Gordon's side in the argument but it was a very big argument going on inside the government so and I think that the thing that this this um highlights in a way is that and this is relevant to if Kier becomes prime minister there's never been such a thing as a perfect prime minister there's never been such a thing as a perfect government you cannot all cliche charm you cannot please all the people all the time but I think you do have to judge people in the round and one of the reasons why I will defend the labor government that I was worked for to my death is that I think when I look back at the change that was made and I look now at the extent to which that change has been I think our biggest failure was actually that we didn't cement well enough the changes that we made so that this lot came along and they've been able to undo far too much of it that's true I agree with that well I'm afraid that's all we've got time for at this evening uh Will's book will be for sale at the back of the hall so you can go and pick back of the hall or out here no there it's for sale at the back and then you're going to sit here um and sign books for so um so do go and pick up a copy of the book and then bring it to the front and will will sign it uh for you huge thanks to uh will for your insights this evening it's an absolutely fantastic book I really recommend buying it and reading it and aliser it's been amazing to have you on the platform as well and of course we will all want to thank his thank k starma in his absence as well and to all of you for coming along uh this evening and being such a lively audience um and thank you for your questions so yes good [Applause] evening thank you

Channel: Intelligence Squared

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Keywords: intelligence squared, debate, intelligence squared debate, top debates, best debates, most interesting debates, intelligence2, intelligencesquared, iq2, iq2 debate, iq squared, Intelligence Squared +, IntelligenceSquared, Intelligence squared plus, IntelligenceSquaredPlus, IntelligenceSquared+, intelligencesquaredplus, intelligencesquared+, Keir Starmer, Starmer, Alastair Campbell, Will Hutton, Sonia Sodha, Conservatives, Labour Party, Conservative Party, Election, General Election

Id: 1joXcf12zes

Length: 92min 40sec (5560 seconds)

Published: Fri Apr 26 2024