Alastair Campbell on Starmer, Sunak and Saving Britain from Itself | Intelligence Squared

[Applause] good evening everyone can you all hear me okay y great well hello and welcome to Intelligence Squared I'm Josh glancy as you know and I'm delighted to welcome alist Campbell here tonight he doesn't really need a lot of introduction but I'll give him one anyway um as I'm sure you all know aliser was from 1994 to 200 three he was Tony Blair's spokesperson Chief spokesperson and then director of communications during the new labor years uh he's also a leading advocate in the field of mental health he's a prolific author uh and most recently uh he's co-presenter of is it the most successful political podcast in Britain after the news agents it's the most successful political podcast in Britain the rest is politics which he obviously presents with Rory Stewart um as I said alist has written a lot of books uh including um a fairly comprehensive account of the Blair years which I'm sure you've all read um and his latest book but what can I do was a number one Sunday Times bestseller and it's really a sort of I suppose it's a kind of creed Aur for what's gone wrong in British politics but it also attempts to be quite constructive about what what can be done so um very pleased to welcome you here alist and obviously this is a sort of quite opportune moment to have a chat about everything really there's a lot going on in the world this is a very political year ahead of us um so before we start I would just you know acknowledge there's been some quite remarkable breaking news tonight with um the announcement that the King King Charles has cancer um obviously I don't really want to speculate too much about that or what will happen next but it did strike me alist that there's an openness in terms of how the Buckingham Palace and the king have approached this news uh and and other health issues he's had recently that is perhaps different to how we might have approached it in the past I think I think it's been very deliberate and to be welcomed I think I mean it's always a very difficult balance to engage with any se you know senior public figures um when there are health issues how much or how little you say um and I think the historically any people in positions of authority the Instinct has been to to conceal for as long as you can before you actually admit as it were um I thought it was interesting for example that when they announced when he went into Hospital recently and they announced the reason namely this enlarged prostate that the number of middle-aged and older men who went and checked out their prostate went stratospherically through the roof so it is a very strange form of soft power um that that that him making that the palace making that announcement so look as you say I don't know any more than this very very brief statement that's been made tonight but um and I guess you know the one thing we can all pretty much guarantee is that your colleagues in the other newspapers I've got no doubt what's going to be on the front pages tomorrow yeah and all week I expect um but no I we haven't had a a monar with a serious illness certainly in my lifetime I mean if the queen did ever have a serious illness we never really knew about it so this is quite new for for a lot of us isn't it yeah so you'll have to go away tonight and think well how does the Sunday Times News Review do something that nobody else has done all week yeah I only three calls from my editor so far this evening um so onto politics um you know the obvious place to start is this year's election um what is more likely would you say this year that rishy sunak somehow wins the election or that Burnley stay up in the Premier League both long shots um neither are guaranteed um well that's a very very good question uh I think that look I I am a professional pessimist in politics I always have been and I every time I bump into members of The Shadow cabinet or any of Kia's team I say just ignore the polls when they're like this ignore them um because I I really genuinely do worry that if you add together the sense of kind of apathy and cynicism that's around about politics anyway um added to which large parts of the the media I don't know why I went like that large parts of the media stand in for all all media large parts of the media are going to be utterly vile about ktha between now much of the election and the election it's you know I keep saying to Kia it hasn't even started yet it's going to get very very nasty um so you put that together with I guess you know this is my worry about Labor I think at the moment there's too much about what labor are not as opposed to what they are and that's fine I think that's fine to have been there for part of this Parliament but I think to really get the sort of win that I think is there for the taking um I'd like to see more from labor but it's very very hard to see how the Tories survive it's not just r unach I mean I feel a bit sorry for him in a way no I don't feel sorry um but I I you know he's followed he's followed the two people who will be analyzed in history only for which one was the worst prime minister that we ever had uh Johnson and Trust so he's he's picked up this thing and then we've had but you know honestly I can't think of a single thing that's got better in this country in the last 13 years so I don't understand how they could even think that they might get reelected but there's a little part of me that says until people go out and vote then whoever's in government stays in government so they have to be voted out and um well it's a massive swing as well I mean it needs a historic it's a huge swing we had um HS us off on the PO on the podcast this morning I near he said the newspaper um and I made the point that because he's H us has now got this new line that you know K is going to win anyway and it's a way of saying so you can still vote SNP but if Scotland stays as it did at the last election K labor have to win Jacob re Moy which we never did so the swing is massive it's bigger than Atley it's bigger than Blair so it's it's not a done deal it's not a done deal which is why you have to get out and vote and persuade your friends to get out and vote as long as it's not for the Tories so I mean the the the framework that's often put on the debate at the moment is is this a 92 moment or a 97 moment I you know these are not perfect analogies it's clearly it's a 2024 moment but um you were obviously there well very much there in '97 but also very much around in '92 as well where would you put this election relative to those two just if you were if you were forced to well look how old are you 18 right so when were you born uh 2005 there you go it's about it's about the future not the past um so he was born in 2005 I was in his primary school this morning honestly you want him to answer the question yeah what is your answer 92977 well the Paul said 97 so I'll probably go with okay he's going 97 he's an optimist okay I was in a school this morning and it was honestly they hadn't heard of David Cameron wow they didn't know who David Cameron was I mean he is now the foreign secretary again yeah I know I know but but they don't really follow politics right they're their kids in a primary school sorry I didn't realiz a primary school Primary School sorry right okay yeah yeah I thought it was like an a level politics it was politics it wasn't a primary school sorry um but this one really cheered me up they didn't know who Piers Morgan was okay yeah they didn't know who aren venger was did they know who alist Campbell was well only because I was there only because I was there because I I was going but so my point is is that look 9297 I remember 1992 vividly because I was still a journalist but I was covering it but I was also and still am a very close friend of Neil kinck I don't think I didn't think labor were going to win um because the more that I'd gone around the country and the buildup to it I just I met too many people who were saying they were going to vote Tor who I didn't expect to vote Tori 97 I thought we were going to win but I didn't think we were going to win as big as we did um but look the the most obvious comparison is 1997 for these reasons the Tories have been in for a very long time there have been a lot of scandals the country feels stuck the labor party has gone through a process of change since Jeremy Corbin um so I think that's what feels more kind of fitting to the moment but at the same time I think there are other things going on that that didn't happen back then I think that uh I think social media I think the fact that the Tories I don't I've got no idea what the Tories are up to in terms of campaigning but it won't be pretty and it'll be very very well funded so I think I think 97 is my short answer but it is 2024 and it's very very it's a very different political landscape so just to let you know we will be taking some questions at the end and if you're watching online as well you can put questions in um to take a go back alist to 97 then there's this metaphor that sometimes used that Tony Blair had was something about carrying a Ming V across a room um that basically all he had to do was not drop the election because it was his to win my the sort of popular memory of 97 is things can only get better and parades down Downing Street and it was all sort of somewhat inspirational um in a very British way but was it like that at the time or or was Blair actually was it quite a campaign or did it feel like a sort of a landslide in the making a momentous moment the the Ming vas thing was actually Roy Jenkins who said that he said that his assessment of our campaign was we it was like we were carrying a Ming vas and we were terrified of dropping it um it's interesting I was interviewed recently for a documentary somebody's making a documentary called 1996 it's mainly about football I think this of last The Oasis and that stuff yeah yeah it's a lot about Gaza and uh so I was interviewed for it so I thought the night before the interview I thought well I bet I'll go and check my Diaries just to sort of you know flick through so I read through them and of course even my sort of institutional memory because it is of 1997 you know we were completely clear about we wanted to do we're in control everything was going well I read my diary it was a [ __ ] nightmare it was like you know nothing was going right it was all people were falling out with scandals so I think that I didn't think on the night of the election itself um Tony and I were up in sedgfield and we'd got to the the count where Tony T Tony's constituency count and we we were told we got about an hour to kill before the result and we were watching the TV and I I'll never forget this it was like we were winning in seats where we hadn't even campaigned there was one moment where there labor MP came on turn you who is that we we because we it was in a place we hadn't expected to win at all so that only came at the end and that's why I say I I remain I think it's right to be cautious about predicting landslides or anything else because you know it can go the other way it can go the other way the campaign felt pretty good but you know this this 28 billion thing that's going on at the moment where I just wish to hell that sort the answer out and fix it we had a a situation nobody will remember this but in 1997 the first couple of the campaign we had this whole big thing about Air Traffic Control privatization that became the big story nobody will remember this right but it became the big thing for about four or five days so you you can never quite tell what's going to flare up in a campaign campaigns people can make mistakes as well as do things well so no it didn't feel easy at all it felt really really hard right to the end it's interesting I'll bring us up to the present now as you say that that's all ancient history in some ways but but fascinating to compare but but you mentioned the media I'd actually push back a little bit on that from a from from a my vantage point certainly I think starm has done pretty well to uh get on with the Murdoch media as as Blair did as well in '96 famously um and I also think that even the parts of the media that will go for him have struggled thus far to lay a glove on him I always think about that do you remember that ridiculous story The M did about the donkey oh the donkey the donkey yeah yeah there was sort of story about this great sort of do people know about the donkey do you want to explain to us about the donkey well it's the Donkey Sanctuary right so Kia stama um had a mom who was spent a lot of her she had Still's disease she was very ill a lot of his childhood um and she liked to sit outside the back and look in this field and and and he eventually got the field so that he could save this Donkey Sanctuary um which if you think about it it's quite a nice story about a nice workingclass boy doing something nice for his mom the male turned it into a whole thing about how he was like a sort of property Speculator you know trying to buy trying to portray him as this sort of so you're right they didn't land the glove but it doesn't mean they won't try um I do think K's quite good at being elusive as a Target um and Tony was good at being elusive as a Target as well Tony went from being Bambi to Starin in about 6 months um so they they haven't yet decided on how they're going to go for care but that they will sure is for sure where I think the change has been I don't think the newspapers are nearly as important as they were for pretty obvious technological reasons but they still to my mind disproportionately set the broader political agenda certainly within the conservative party and the conservative party seems to me spend all their time talking to the telegraph the mail and to some extent the times and the Sun that is where the conversation's taking place and the public well let's not worry about them too much much so and that then sets the broadcast agenda which is where I still think a lot of people consume yes and even if people say well I consume my politics online which lots of people do the stuff that is being fed towards them a lot of it is still being channeled through what a newspaper yeah it's BBC Clips it's talk TV Clips well it's like tonight you know the news is actually leading on an interview that Piers Morgan has done with yeah with Richie sunak which no one to watch live few people but they'll see clips of that something will go viral and and I have to say it's like I have people heard about this interview so on the one there's two big stories coming out of it the first is Rishi sunak has admitted that he's not met uh the the Health Service pledge that he made when he did his five priorities and the second thing is k um K St Piers Morgan making a, bet that no refugees will go to Rwanda okay and rather ill advisedly in my view Rishi sunak seems to have taken the BET by shaking Piers Morgan's hand Alistair is it fair to say ill advisedly as a slight understatement on your part you low well the thing I'd say in Pier's Morgan's defense even though he regularly calls me a liar um I think that might have to something do something with the sort of fact that I'm a bit pissed off that he was hacking my phone while he was the editor um shots fired what shots fired I so but so if you think about this as as a thing though is that Piers Morgan he sees his job and has done all his life as trying to get attention for himself and his TV channel now okay Rishi Sun's job is to be the Prime Minister and lead the country so when I say ill advised don't help him Morgan do his job at the detriment of you doing your job which I'm afraid is what happened and I could feel that from the Ripple people immediately think oh my god did he really do that well he did well it didn't strike me as great politics and and that actually was going to be my next question anyway which is is Rishi tunak as bad as at Politics as he seems to be and if so why well I see what you've got to be very very very particular to think that the place to announce that you're scrapping hs2 is the Tory Party Conference in Manchester that takes a political Wizardry that I cannot quite grasp um and also he's got look we the thing about politicians is we're all human beings we we we try to make them what we want them to be so people will say why can't Kia starma be a bit more charismatic why can't R you could you why can't Rite be taller well he can't right why can't he be less Rich well because he likes making loads of money or his wife does so you know they are what they are but he does seem I I think that I was a journalist when Mrs thater was prime minister right and this goes you know more broadly I think that there probably has been a diminution of the political Gene fewer and fewer people think about going to politics for all sorts of reasons I hope you guys think about going to politics I've got a young group down here by the way is just to indicate to the older people at the back um The Young Ones got here really early um but I think that I'm not sure that richy sunite would have got into Maggie's cabinet right I think he might have got a job as a junior Minister but I think that's I don't want to be personal I don't want to be rude but I kind of think that's his level um sorry I hope that wasn't personal rude but that is I mean that is a bro that is an issue that is much broader than Rich you the caliber of and it's partly because we've been through about three sets of Tory politicians at this point yeah so we are sort of and the and Johnson who terrible human being but he threw out people like Rory Stewart Ken Clark you know David gwk people who you could at least look at and think I can imagine them as cabinet ministers I don't think they're ridiculous people so he got rid of all them so now I mean honestly there are people who have been you know just just think we live in a country where for the rest of her life LZ truss will get an allowance for the fact that she was the Prime Minister LZ truss just remember this she will be at the senath every year see I think that's a curse though well she'll ha it yeah but she probably though she will love it she'll love it because it'll be her reminder so I just think that's absurd and but if I think back to the Thatcher major time right and it's amazing isn't it I mean John Major when he came on the podcast I remember sitting there thinking I used to be vile about this guy and I now think God I wish he was back you know even Theresa May I think wish she was back I mean what's happened to me so um so I think there has been a diminution um but the truth is it you don't need that many really really good people you need a few really really good people and then you need a a very large cohort of good strong competent people but I feel at the moment we don't we neither have the really good people nor the competent cohort and it's it's terrible it's terrible they've got to go they've got to go and then I hope I hope that labor can come in and really give the country a sense of energy and direction and change because I mean these guys their generation I I was in a school the other day right and this girl she was about 15 and she actually got a laugh she didn't mean to get a laugh she got a laugh in the classroom but I felt really sad by what she said she said she said has politics always been this bad and I just thought that's all she's known I said what was your first memory of politics she said it was my parents arguing about brexit and I I just think since brexit this country has completely lost its way politically so I think we'll towards the end we'll get back to little bit of the more constructive stuff on on what can be done there but I just wanted to ask you a little bit about leadership which is a great theme of your writing and podcasting um and starma on the one hand I think he's exhibited some quite strong qualities of leadership in terms of the way he's taking control of the party again and he's been quite he's very ruthless on the other hand as you've alluded to he doesn't I don't think even he would say he's a hugely charismatic man he doesn't give a resounding speech um lots of people say they find him a bit dull and a bit boring how do you assess him as a leader his strengths and weaknesses well I think the assessment you have to make is based upon what he's done to take the labor party from where it was um now accepted he's had a lot of help from the Tories okay but he's gone from a place where in 2019 people were really beginning to think as the labor party had its day I remember doing an interview on the day you know on the day of the defeat saying that no party has a divine right to exist so he's gone from that to a place where now the criticism he gets is you know why isn't it absolutely blindingly obvious that there's going to be a massive Landslide um so I I think you'd have to say that he's done a pretty good job at showing the change um and I can remember after the Harlot poool byelection he came around for a cup of tea because you know lives quite near us and he came around for a c te and and I was in you know I'm quite kind of that was the n really wasn't it really was and I was saying you know what I care I don't understand what is the strategy what is the plan I don't see what's going on and he said and and and I've seen him say this many many times since and I've seen other people say it and it's the it's the moment when I realize that I think actually he does have quite a strategic mind it just works differently to the way that I Define strategy doesn't mean that's right or wrong either is it right or wrong and he said this he said look I've got to try to do in one parliamentary term through three stages first stage show the labor party is not the Corban party it's changed and people have got to understand that okay now here we are in pretty much Jeremy Corbin territory hands up if you think the labor party has changed in the last few years okay so that's pretty overwhelming yeah second stage he said show that the conservatives are unfit to govern well as you say he may he may have had a bit of help may but I think and also do think is and it's true he's not he's not a Barack Obama orator he's not a Bill Clinton get the hairs on your next standard but I think he's both his speaking and his interviews and his performance in Parliament have all improved and that's an important Point as well because he's you know he's he's he's not much younger than I am he's getting on a bit right so so but he has improved all of those things but I think the third part he then said then the third part is to show if not them why us and that has to be about policy now that that's the bit that I think they really need to kind of focus on and crank up now and I think what they're doing is getting the negatives out the way I hope what they're doing they've got these five missions I hope those five missions by the time of the election turn into some pretty clear concrete stuff that everybody knows and everybody understands and the thing is at the moment I feel the country is is it's really in most elections you've got an opposition and people are kind of this definitely happened with Jeremy Corbin I think it happened with Neil back in 1992 you got people who think well I might be tempted but I'm going to I want to find reasons not to vote for them I think with labor at the moment if they could just T you know be a bit less defensive I think the country is looking for reasons to vote for them and that's the it's a different Dynamic so give us the reasons to vote for we we we had a friend we got France a lot we've got a friend out there who lives near where we go and and this guy he's he's British but but he's voted Tori all his life and he says I cannot vote Tori again I cannot vote Tori but he said but but starma has to give me a song to whistle to and I thought it was a really good phrase it was like what is the song I'm forget the Tories what am I whistling to and uh that's what I'd like to see in the next bit but you use the word ruthless by the way and I think he is quite ruthless and that is not to be underestimated in politics well he's also as you pointed out he is more strategic than people give him credit for I think he he worked out quite early on that it was going to be good politics to be ruthless with the with the corite left when when there was a clear crossing of the the boundaries he'd set and so he's not been afraid to do it really from day one yeah yeah listen you know Tony was seen as a pretty strong Bowl leader in lots of different ways but would Tony have actually expelled Jeremy Corbin from the party well he never did um but go back to 97 for a moment there was a lot of money in the kitty then or a lot more money in the kitty then and so Blair and Gordon Brown could lay out basically improving Public Services through spending which they then you know to some extent did clearly that's not the case anymore so just structurally is it quite a disadvantage there no it's different it's definitely different I look we we I think that look the Tories are very very good at writing long-term narratives okay so if you listen to them now you say well 1997 we we you inherited a sort of golden age it's absolute bollocks um there was M there was inflation back in the system and massive unemployment so we had a lot of economic problems we had to here but what is true not just economically I'd say economically socially culturally strategically on the security front internationally I think labor if they win will inherit a much trickier Wicket than we did I really do think they will but and and I think there's two things I'd say about that one that is why you do have to have a sense of a long-term Vision um and be clear about what that is and what sort of time frame you're talking about the country will listen to Somebody even though they know it takes two election they'll listen to people talking about 10 years you know a decade to do this a decade to do that um and the second thing I'd say is that when if and when labor get in you have to have you get energy you get momentum through change that that will you know that the thing about the the sort of flag waving in Downey Street and what have you you do have moments that can give you a sense of this is changed this gives you energy this gives you momentum and during the period because the truth is in our political system change does take time turn around the Health Service it's going to take a long time that he talks about growth through reform of the planning system that is not going to be easy so you're going to have to have alongside that what I call cost neutral campaigning and policy issues and the one for me that I think really lends itself to Karma's personality and to labor party values is actually about trying to restore values in public standards in public life right I think I think the I think the the labor party underestimate the power that there is in saying to the public you know what things saying to that girl no politics wasn't always this bad politics doesn't always have have to be this bad we are going to restore basic standards in public life and I would love it for example if he stood up and said you know what John Major he was right when he talked about the need for the nol and principles he was right when he talked about we should have an expectation of honesty in public life there should be openness there should be transparency we should be here to serve not to help ourselves with all this I mean the levels of corruption that are happening in our politics now I am staggered I'm staggered that with one or two exceptions this stuff going up in tside and the Free Port stuff at the moment it's happening with next to no debate and look there was a report last week saying that they haven't proven corruption but they've certainly established governance systems that simply aren't working so I think if he were to say stand up and say all that and then say and mean it if a single minister in a labor government offends any one of those seven Nolan principles they are out and then he has to do it and I think that would I think it would transforms people's perception of politics at the moment you know I I spent all my life defending politics and the book really is a defense of politics okay but at the moment when somebody says to me I was this school I went to today in dagam I arrived a bit early and I went to this Cafe for a just to get a cup of coffee and there's a guy say next to me he recognizes me starts talking what have you and he said I mean the trouble is they're all in it up to their necks they're all in it for themselves and now people have said that about politics forever okay and I I've always argued that it's not true but I kind of look at the recent government and I get why he's saying it so labor I think can change that so I would say go for the cultural stuff you know go for the changing standards in public life and I also think by the the way things like the arts and culture which are so often being seen as kind of like melvan Bragg made this speech in the house this week it was really good and he said you know arts and culture aren't the cherry on the cake they are the cake and I think Britain you know we've had all this Guff from Johnson and Truss about world beating this and World beating that you know we've got an army now that you can fit inside the bloody Yeti had you know and he's talking about I mean it's just nonsense and then he says he signed up for conscription did you see that I mean so I think that we where we can be World beating is if we can restore the values genuine respect for rule of law and democracy and all that but also in culture we can be a cultural superpower so that's the sort of vision I want to see from Kia so that lack of trust in politics and in politicians I mean as you say to ever us to some extent but clearly it's it's it's got worse in recent years where do you root that to I mean do you how much of that is about brexit and the brexit wars do you go back further lots of people might say the Iraq War and and which obviously you were central figure in take you know the black government taking Britain to war in Iraq was a a great loss of trust in politics so where do you I think look there's there's never been a kind of housian period when people have thought oh I love my politicians you know but I think I think I think politicians have always had a certain respect a residual respect I think there have been a number of things I think MPS expenses did a huge amount of damage I think the global financial crisis I say in the book I think the real the real trigger for this successful populism was the global financial crisis where people felt the people who caused it got away with it and we the people paid the price um Iraq definitely um I think that you have to accept that you know I know Tony didn't lie I know I didn't lie but when you have made as part of your case the fact you have stated in your honest conviction that this is about tackling Saddam Hussein and weapons of mass destruction and the inspectors go in and they don't find them that's a pretty obvious trust moment um so all of these things come together and I think you know more recently I do think that I I think one of the reasons why the interesting I saw a very interesting polling presentation by John Curtis a few weeks ago the two moments that have really moved the dial in our politics um in recent years have been party gate and the trust mini budget um party gate I think was was I think people felt genuinely fundamentally offended by that yes and defended by the lying That Then followed but I think that I I do for my point I do think brexit is a big factor in this because I think that as a country we've moved on from the single most important and significant change that has been made Through The Ballot Box we've moved on from it despite the fact that it did involve lies and law breaking and there has been no accountability for for either so Johnson went eventually because of the lies over party gate he's never been held accountable for brexit so I think all of that combines to make people think well is there much Point getting involved and that's what I'm trying to address in the book is yes there is because we have to get more and better people involved in the political process de with brexit I mean I sometimes wonder if in in recent years if you mentioned hs2 earlier and sometimes I wonder if actually what brexit and to some extent the pandemic to have done is actually reveal a sort of deeper rot that had set in beforehand um to to this is what within Public Service yeah and within public life and within within our institutions and that actually we sort of been drifting it's it's a bit like you know if you have a terrible breakup in your life or something and then you suddenly realize that actually your friends you sort have drifted from them for quite a while or something and to what extent do you put Britain's predicament now with down to brexit versus this kind of deeper Mala that I think I think brexit was the peak um and look I do think there's been a you mentioned institutions part of what populism does is to under M institutions because the institutions which are there to hold politicians to account to ensure the rule of law to ensure a free and fair media all these institutions um if you're a populist who's trying to say to people I can be a I can solve this complicated Problem by giving you a simple slogan to that you can sort of tie your tie your flag to then the institutions fall victim to that um and I actually think I say in the book I think we have to do a better job of protecting the institutions particularly and that's difficult from a progressive perspective normally the progressives are the ones who are saying the institutions have to be modernized and changed but actually I I think the rule of law in particular we've got to be really really careful about that but I think there has been a kind of a rot I I do think I hate doing that thing where journalists can say oh you always blame the media I'm not all only blaming the media I do think that media coverage of politics has been really corrosive about politics and politics Poli itics has not done a good job of Defending itself and our political system doesn't lend itself to it I think for example that you know the fact that most of what people see of politics is a minister says something the shadow Minister attacks it and then somebody comes along and says well it's probably not going to work anyway and the sort of General sense is this just this dysfunctional and I do think I I I really think we need to have a complete overhaul of the whole political system starting with political education in schools which is why I keep going to schools and trying to talk to kids about politics lowering the voting age compulsory voting definitely a look at the electoral system um I don't I'm not one of those people who thinks PR is some kind of Panacea is not but our electoral system feels broken um probably even greater Devolution to the towns and cities and regions and the the nations of the UK um I just feel we we're at a point where we we feel broken it feels broken and the only way to to fix it is to be honest about that and then to say okay as a country what are we going to do about that and I worry that the elections are going to be about very small things when it should be about big things it's funny you mention ministerial announcements because it's something we've noticed at at the Sunday times in the last year or two which is readers aren't responding to your classic political interview anymore uh they're not really interested in Reading sort of oldfashioned political coverage anymore so we're actually having to look at quite different ways to cover politics and connect it to people's lives or issues um so you know in the sense that the media does have to respond to its readers there is there is seemingly a shift out there I hope there is because I I think it's become incredibly formulaic um you know if you think about so that you get the Sunday papers they go into the Sunday shows the same person does the round says the same thing that leads the new for the day that sets the debate for the Monday and I think for a lot of people they're just not even listening anymore I think that system is breaking down I really do I hope it does I hope it does it needs to from the front line that's how it looks to me but um and to be honest that's why I think I mean I've been absolutely stunned by the success of our podcast but I think it is actually because it's it's just a bit more thoughtful and deep than what I think people feel they getting from turning on the Telly and watching the news Well we can thank Rory Stewart for that but that's definitely the best line so far and he will be so happy and I know there's a friend of his who's here tonight who'll be texting him right now saying um you mentioned you mentioned populism obviously there are many other big elections happening this year uh India we just had Taiwan but there'll be a lot of attention on America you're quite a keen student of American politics um I'm not going to ask you who's going to win cuz it's it's something akin to a coints but what do you make of it all do I mean I have written in the past I I spent a few years in Washington that I just thought from day one they were mad to run Joe Biden again given his age and you know sort of General Vibe um what do you think do you do you think that was a mistake or is that is it too too is that premature do you think well if you see it from his perspective I mean Trump is a awful phenomenon but he is a phenomenon and you know we we I spoke to Hillary Clinton when she was in Belfast for the 25th anniversary of the Good Friday agreement and you know I said it's really hard to look back it must be incredibly hard for her she's written a whole book about how hard it is but I don't know what she could have done differently in the campaign because she was up against this phenomenal she could have gone to Wisconsin that was the she could have lot lots of could have would have should have but my point is on the strategy she pursued I can understand it now Biden did beat him he beat him and we talked to this guy Tu rescu on the podcast last week who's a Republican strategist who's now in the kind of anybody but Trump um camp and he said the thing you have to understand about to become the American president you have to think that that you can be the American president and even though lots of people might say oh I could do that very very very very few people on Earth say to themselves do you know what I could be American president and mean it Joe Biden thinks he can still be American president and I think unless Jill his wife says to him Joe don't do it which there's no sign she is saying that he's going to go for it at which point then it has to become well want him or do you want the other guy um now I agree with you I think that a lot of people will be thinking you know is he going to survive four years do we really want Cala Harris Etc um equally I still think he's got a good record to point to he's a pretty good campaigner and trump orbe it he's a phenomenon he's actually a pretty easy political Target um but IE you know everywhere everybody I talking to America says you know can't they both just disappear that's kind of the feeling of it I still think I I think Biden will win though well there was I mean the reason he won last time well the main reason he won was that there was a there was a constituency and they call them swing voters called the moderates who just couldn't face Trump again yeah they they didn't necessarily like Biden they're not necessarily liberal but they just s this guy we just want to switch him down switch him off turn the volume down and they were just exhausted by it and I I do think that constituency is still there um but you you must be pretty worried by some of the polling at the moment I mean obviously we're months out the polling is terrific but don't forget if you go back to the midterms Trump was dead Trump was finished it was all over things swing around very very quickly I still think the bit I mean Trump clearly thinks that every time he's on T every time he's got the chance to be on TV in one of these courtrooms he takes it because thus far it's helped him up I think that will I think it could go the other way quite quickly I think there will come a point where the legal troubles become too bad and and also I I but you know your initial question was what do I think has happened I find it unfathomable I mean I covered Thatcher Reagan I just I I I actually mentioned in the book about a speech Reagan Reagan's last look up Reagan's last speech as American president okay it's an amazing piece of oratory but the other thing that's incredible about it you couldn't imagine Donald Trump saying one word that he says it's actually a p of praise to immigrants it's an amazing speech um so what has gone and the other thing we talked to Tucker about this is that because he's a kind of big Christian guy I just don't know what's happened in the American psyche that have you seen the Trump made God film the Trump God made Trump no I haven't oh you got to see it it's about evangelicals yeah it's the evangelicals have made this film called God made Trump it's not funny it's terrifying it's terrifying that they they believe that so what has happened to that psyche I just don't know the answer to that question you probably have a better feel for it because you lived there yeah well I spent spent a lot of time in those Evangelical churches um mostly getting Co but that's another story um but so crystal ball say imagine Trump does win and starma wins um how does starma approach that I mean even for the campaign they're still they're already having to reach out because you need to have relationships and that sort of thing um we're as closely alive to America as we ever were really Poss you know you see us buming together in the Middle East yet again um how does how does starm and labor approach Trump um It's Tricky It's Tricky I think you have to do it like TR made did it I you you you you you you could tell from the body language that theres was not enjoying it but she said the right things and I think you have to do that um but you also have to reach a point where sometimes you have to call him out um but I I I think that I don't imagine there's a single person in this Hall who thinks that not just um K starma but I suspect richy sunak would be really worried about the return of trump I mean the whole thing with NATO is terrifying yeah it's terrifying you know and and and it's not just the fact that he can think about it it's the fact that he can do it on a whim and what happened last time is that you know we all persuaded ourselves that he'll get in there then the grown-ups will surround him the grown-ups were kept out the room and then the ones that he got in there even though they couldn't cope with it but they did have him in they hemmed him in they hemmed him in but a trump that comes back having you know what is it Washington is it the Washington Post that's 5 million words of Lies they've got this database of all the lies he told was president and it goes to 5 million words you've had the Insurrection You' had people dying as a result of it you've had Scandal upon Scandal you've had this recent liable case I mean we're talking about a level of this should normally do for a political career that is up there and yet he's still in the fight so that he will be so emboldened if he wins he literally will be able to think he can pick up the phone to zilinski and say Vlad Vladimir is over you're on your own yeah you're on your own mate you know it's up to you do you want to do you want to lose the whole country or do you want to lose what you've lost already because I've now got to go and talk to Kim Jun to say thanks for the nice letter he sent me last week you know so I think it's terrifying so I always think it's it's a great danger sometimes in British politics to try and draw too many uh conclusions from American politics but I would say looking at Biden it seems to me that one weakness that he has accured is that he hasn't really been seen to do anything about immigration do you think that's something that starma should take note of whether in his campaign or if he does become Prime Minister that actually he can't afford to not to sit on his hands on that issue you have to you you look and not by the way not just G St right across Europe This is like really big at the moment and very very difficult um and you either have to I mean what Angela Merkel did in you know taking in a million and shaff andas and all that um was very big very bold very brave and you could argue the right thing to do the political consequences have been pretty profound um you now have a situation so here we are we're talking about you know could Britain get back into the European Union you know there is an argument to be made about whether it is developing into a European Union that we want to be in um you've got the Sweden Democrats now in government you've got the um we've just had an election in Finland which actually was pretty good from the progressive perspective but you've got Maloney already in power you've got the afd you know these I I've been really impressed by these protests against them but the reason for them is because they are now so high in the polls in several parts of the country you've got Builders okay so is the conclusion from that that brexit wasn't such a bad idea after all no brexit remains how dare you come to my first first question to that no I I still think it was a terrible thing to do and by the way I think one of the worst things about it is that Europe has lost the influence of the UK within it um I I imagine that the Franco German Alliance which has always been a big motor would have been strengthened by a departure bizarrely it's been weakened um so you've got you've got Marine Le Pen she's pretty much doing nothing at the moment but she could win um you've got the afda as I say on a path to government not probably the they're not going to be the biggest party but they could be in a position where they have to be part government so that's you know that's all evolving and a lot of that is to do with immigration so yes it has to be addressed but I still think that you know one of the reasons uh I'm obviously I'm not a nationalist I'm not a supporter of the SNP but I I do think it's good that we've at least got one party that sort of talks up for imig speaks up for immigration and let's be honest we as a country getting older and older um Artificial Intelligence coming along the way that it is you know the the the need for immigration is not going to dry up anytime soon so I I just wish that we could be a bit more honest about that but K Kier I think is playing I completely support what he's trying to do politically has to do what he's doing on immigration so couple more questions from me and then we're going to go to the audience so have a think on what you might want to ask um you mentioned cynicism earlier and that's a quite a big theme of the book as well is is resisting cynicism um I wonder if you might talk a bit more about that what what can one do what are the more constructive approaches to politics that can overcome the the mistrust the cynicism uh the apathy frankly that has set in for a lot of people well it's hard it's really it's really hard and I and I get why I think I think first of all one of the things I try to do in the book is to be fair and reasonable about politicians as a breed um there have been some terrible people in politics um you know through history but in the main it's a pretty tough job it's a difficult thing to do you put yourself out there particularly in the Modern Age you get loads of abuse so I think we should all of us try to see something positive in them um I think more importantly I think we should try to resist and this is really hard it's going to get harder because of AI and fake news and all that stuff we should try to resist going for the first thing that comes at us about any issue we should try to inform ourselves better and we should take more ownership I think of of what we think about politics as individuals and as and as communities because I it and it's very hard to do I found myself there was classic example today there's a poll doing the rounds and it says that labor support among the Muslim Community has hared since October right it's not true it's not true when you go down to the numbers it's way more complicated than that and but there that's the kind of thing that I think so when I saw it I thought okay interesting need to check it out now what you can't do you can't spend your whole life being a kind of you know your own journalist you can't do that but I think that what I would say is is reserve have skepticism about everything that is put towards you but don't have cynicism don't imagine that everybody's lying lying to you don't imagine that things can't be improved don't imagine that things can't work and look for and enjoy the stuff that does work and you know there's plenty of it there's plenty of it yeah I mean one one positive aspect of the immigration issue is that lot of people still want to come and live in this country don't they absolutely um I would also say I'm extremely biased on this but I generally find actually not going to social media for my news but actually reading newspapers I trust first gives me much because they have done gone through the poll and actually Crums the numbers or what yeah what I what I tend to do for my own kind of because it's it's very hard to know how um I was in secondary school last last week 17 18 year olds nobody physically one person physically read a paper um about three watched the BBC One watch Sky none watched GB news um so they were all on kind of different Social Media stuff but actually they kind of they were talking about all the same things so they kind of getting there what I do when I'm interested in something I do now go and I've I've got one of my gold rules you read books not newspapers sorry um reading but you can do both you do both and the other thing is I I I I I have a little sort of Michael Gove in my head saying you know we're sick and tired of experts and I go and find a genuine expert on something and I Google them and I see if they've said anything about and if they haven't I might send them an email and say what are your thoughts on this yeah because not everyone's in the position to do that I say we are though we are we are in the position to do that well they might not reply they might not well they don't always reply to me that's fair um last question for me and then we'll we'll move to the audience just on the book it was a it was a number one best seller say so what impact have you noticed it having and how did that you obviously had hope for it in terms of how you the impact it would have did that live up to expectation it's very hard to measure um you'll be pleased to know as a Rory Stewart Fanboy that his book is sold even better um somebody tell Rory I said that as well um I don't know it's very hard to measure very hard to measure the impact of a book um I mean I showed you the book I was reading the backstage the boy the strip pajamas it sold 11 million copies in 50 languages um how do you I don't know how you measure the impact but I've been I've been struck by when I've gone into schools in particular today classic examples so my next book's actually politics for primary schools um so I'm going into to talk to primary schools and what have you so today was with this school council and so these were the last year so 10 10 year olds in the main and I said come on then any of you would any of you think about going into politics no way no way they said so then we talked about it for an hour and by the end end I asked them the same question and I said right come on we didn't even think about going to politics and I had about five Mayes um what I what I've I have had messages letters from people who've said that it's made them think differently about politics that's that's a minimum I'd like to achieve um and then then I have had some I had a letter the other day from a guy who's decided as a result of reading the book to try to get a seat now I had a chat with him and said I think you know where things are in the Electoral s he might thinking about going for a Council seat first but he's decided he's going to try and get on a short list fair enough so I've definitely had people whove said that this made them want to get I say in the introduction to the book that my my IM my vision for it I like to have long-term Vision I like to visualize things is that on the day I die in about 40 years on the day I die that the then prime minister says that this book made them go into politics okay moderately ous happen it could happen [Laughter] moderately could be one of these guys okay so we are going to open up to questions I hope we got some lights uh we are going to have some lights we're going to have some microphone by the way I know this venue I know this venue quite well because I come to lots of folk music events that here all I can say is I hope you brought cushions have you because it's they're not the comest pews are they love no no keeps everyone alert you know next time bring a cushion um you've heard this before but please do ask questions please don't make statements I beg you um okay so where are the roving mics do you want to just find a couple of find a Pew with a couple of people have their hands up that looks like a good place to start hello hi aliser hello um so a lot of my friends at the moment are really really pissed off at the labor party about their stance um on the ceasefire Etc yeah how do I convince them to go and vote and that it's about more than that well you've is that what you want to do yeah I want to convince them that they still need to vote you don't share their anger well I do share their anger right but I still want to yeah okay um I suppose all we can do is try to explain why you think their position is as it is and then even if that fails to persuade them on the specific issue say that you know in the end you have to decide whether that is going to stop you from actually allowing this conservative government to continue um because in the end that is the choice there's no such thing as a perfect candidate there never has been Abraham Lincoln was not a perfect human being Nelson Mandela was not a perfect human being um now on the position about why I think why Labor's position is as it is is SE the several reasons the first is I think they don't want it to be their main thing that's a sort of tactical political thing the if and when Kama does become Prime Minister one of the most important relationships he's going to have is with the United states he will as prime minister have way more influence on this debate than he has now does he really want to use up political Capital now with the Americans in a way that would make your friends feel a bit better for a few days before they then probably got pissed off with the 28 billion thing okay so I think it's I think it's explaining it's trying to explain that the that the the the the position that he's adopted is not as simple cannot be met just by a slogan or an act which you think will have no consequences but it could have consequences does that make sense and then I think on the bigger picture it's you know this is the worst government for young people there has ever been and you know in a sense you got to say to them just get off your high horse and vote labor okay um there's a lady there in in the beige is yeah we're only taking questions from women yeah sorry N Roses okay hi um so I think it's very obvious to sort of everybody really that the state of society and all of our institutions are in a pretty sort of abhorent um position and that's obviously due to sort of the decade plus of horrendous policies under uh uh current and previous governments um so it's obviously fair to say that whoever comes into power and hopefully that is labor will have a you know horrendous sort of challenge ahead of them so what advice would you sort of give to the you know hopefully incoming labor government about how we reframe and change the narrative that we've kind of got around us about Labor being not a safe pair of hands with the economy and what do you think our priorities should be when it comes to public spending um essentially you thrown your question like that because of course I would say that one of the reasons why some of your friends probably are a bit pissed off with labor is that the framing of economic safety security not frightening the horses is very much the kind of driving economic narrative it was interesting Rachel re and Kier both spoke at this big business event the other day and it was very much aimed at at them you know reassuring them so and I think that's that's sensible politics um I think that in terms of of spending look it's going to be really difficult there's no doubt about that it's going to be very very difficult the demands are going to be enormous you know you you you've got local government in this country that is facing meltdown L literally some of them facing bankruptcy you've got as I said earlier you've got this report from the defense select committee that is really saying our defenses now are not in a fit State for the scale of danger that we're facing you've got people desperate for the Health Service to be built up You' got education that is you know you literally got Schools fall into bits so rebuilding the public realm when you say what would my priority be for public spending it's rebuilding the public realm but it's going to take a lot of time and I think it's just it's just being it's being honest about that but then I think there has to be I what I hope for K starma I think I'm reading a book at the moment Nick Thomas Simmons who's a member of The Shadow cabinet he's written some very very good biographies of P labor leaders and I'm reading his book about Clement Atley at the moment and I hope my big hope for gear starm is actually he's going to be you say 92 97 that it's going to be more 1945 that it's actually that he's going to get in and then the country will be ready for all sorts of things that aren't even being talked about at the moment because the the language is very much about it's about tax it's about borrowing I think we're going to have to completely Rec reconfigure how Public Services are delivered artificial intelligence is going to be an important part of that so I I'm hoping that it will be all of those public services but it it will be in taking a completely different approach across the piece and I think the country will be ready for that hopefully no rationing um if you're upstairs we are going to get to you but you have to queue at the mic I'm told I don't know where the mic is but if you C at the mic we will get to you there's a mic there isn't it that's a mic oh yeah I see what you mean that's standing mic that's a mic um see if if I was up there I'd grab that mic and I'd sing and this guy looks like a singer look at him no um I mean the leather jacket is pretty okay we'll see is there a do you have a question okay well I'll tell you what we've got one on the iPad first which is from our digital audience um counterfactual if Starman loses the next election what do you think happens to labor then and I will I will double that up with a question of my own which is if you were advising Rishi sunak how would you advise him to win this election so maybe start with that and then and then counterfactual LIF sta loses what happens I tell you what I would have advised if I did publicly on the podcast as it were when sunak started as prime minister I said he has got a very very brief wind of opportunity to signal that he genuinely represents ch change M and he kind of said the right things Integrity professionalism accountability but then he didn't do it and I'll tell you the moment when I started to think this guy just hasn't got it was the Privileges report into Johnson I mean he literally did a runner to avoid being seen he didn't vote on it he didn't talk about it it was all it was like just let it go it'll go away it won't go away because as I said in that polling thing you know the party gate thing really cut through to people so I think now what he would do look I think the best thing he could do and this is why the ridiculous thing with Piers Morgan Tonight goes against us the thing he should be doing is being the Prime Minister governing the country being serious I think some of I think the way he comes I think how many people by the way watch prime minister's questions I'm really fascinated by this stuff quite a few probably quite an un sort of politically focused audience yeah yeah none of them in the primary school today had ever watched it um but but I I I I just I just find his whole stick at Prime Minister's questions I think is completely counterproductive he should be serious he should be serious he should be measured he should be practical I just think he's he's listening to these politicos who are trying to tell him this is how you win a campaign I think you're you you said something very interesting about the the way newspapers are adapting to this new sens of what politices the campaigners need to do that as well people are sick of that stuff so I actually think K when he stands up there and just kind of he's just a bit you know people can say it's dull but he's sort of serious I think people think he's serious and I think that's what starma should try um sun should try to be and just to that point if if starma does lose what happens does it swing back to the left labor or listen if if if labor if labor don't win but by the way if sunite wins I think it'll be the first time ever that any party has won as many elections as this law have right and you got to remember this for labor I like to say this because I'm one of the few PE people still standing who will always defend Tony Blair um and I don't even get paid for it these days um not by him anyway uh you're probably the only person that doesn't at this point yeah he's built up a very good organization but if you go through the last 11 elections in this country it goes like this from a labor perspective Ive lost lost lost lost Blair Blair Blair lost lost lost lost right so if labor lose again then I think the labor party has an existential question to answer okay um we've got two let's take two questions from so both of you up there sure um hi aliser hello um aside from maybe encouraging people to go to be a politician to be an MP or whatever what about potentially encouraging people to to work in Civil Service work in political journalism I feel like that's also totally fallen off really and so what would your advice be to someone who's maybe thinking about that but maybe has doubts yeah well well let's just take second question from thank you Alistair um sunak brought back um an Undisputed failure in Cameron into government uh if Kia becomes prime minister should he invite an extraordinarily successful and able person in Tony Blair and if so in what capacity and would he be interested good question very good question right well I I'll take the first one because it's easier um the no you're absolutely right and by the way the book has got a whole thing about politics is not just politicians politics is campaigners politics is think tanks politics is as you say the Civil Service they shouldn't be political but it's part of the political process politics is local parties it's campaigners politics is anything and anyone who decides to use their voice to try to make a difference um so my advice to everybody is first of all decide whether you want to make a difference once you've just and most people do once you've done that decide what are the things you really really care about and then decide how can you best how are your best place to do that now for some people I know lots of people who are absolutely passionate about issues but would no more want to be a elected politician than fly to the moon they just couldn't imagine themselves doing it but they do other things you know so I I think your question is a brilliant question because that is the mindset I think we all have to have what you know the question is but what can I do that is why I call the book what can I do what can I do what can you do and then within the time frame that you have from your profession your family other interests in your life wanting to be a normal human being what time can you commit then how do you commit it and I do think I you know I think to change the the scale of change that I think this country needs it's going to need way more than a change of government it's going to way need way more than politicians to do it it's going to need all of us yeah um so on the I've got to say the thing about David Cameron coming back um it's very rare because these guys do sort of in the main find out what's going on it's very rare that you get something we just go wow I never saw that cup you saw the chef on the BBC when when C Street genuine that was I think David C just went in the building um but so I I get where your question is coming from and I will never ever forgive Cameron either for austerity or for the fact that he had the ridiculous referendum um but I think he's I got say I think he's doing quite a good job I think he's he's definitely putting the hours in uh I think his big problem for sunak is I think he looks and sounds much more like a prime minister um but and the question about about Tony um I don't I don't think K will ask him poor Tony no I don't I don't I don't look I think that the the the the big difference about the thing is that KIA definitely knows that every single one of that new labor team whether it's Tony whether it's Gordon whether it's me whether it's Peter mandus he knows that if there's anything that he thinks we can usefully provide by the way of thinking and advice and experience the rest of it that everybody's up for it whereas I don't think sunac really can feel that about most of his predecessors um and no that is a big that is a big difference that is a big difference so I think that I don't think he needs to I think he's got I think I actually think the other thing that's happened in the last year or so I think I actually do feel the shadow cabinet has grown as well um I think Angela Raina is an I mean if you haven't listened to her interview with us on the podcast it's just she's just amazing person um what's the um what's the relationship between starmer and Blair like how do I mean good do they do they talk often yeah I think they they chat yeah I think um Tony's you know it's he he doesn't bombard um I I also think you know I mentioned the gentleman the Rockstar guy um the the the whole Think Tank I think Tony's Institute is producing some really really really interesting policy ideas um and and I think that's the other part of our politics has hollowed out you know the think tank world has just been taken over by these you know tufton street they're basically just an extension of the political game as opposed to you know we need the resolution Foundation does some great stuff um we need you know think tanks have got a really important role in policy development and so I think Tony sees his role more as that um but I'm sure if Kia pH him and said I'm a bit tired today do you want to take over you I think you'd go for that um we have some people God there let's try let's try doing all three so you're going to have to remember okay need a pen for that let's do it can I have a bit of paper yeah thank you yeah I'm listening two parts one why do we never get a female labor leader two should the next Labor leadership vote be an all women short list okay okay next question um today there was a report that was backed by Lord Robertson your first the chief um defend secretary um talking about how Ireland is a back door for Russia and Iran and such how do the EU Ireland is a back door for Russia and Iran through their neutrality how do with an EU you hoping to expand and hopefully to have us back in it one day how does Europe deal with Irish and swiss neutrality and such did George say that yeah well it was a report that was backed by him right okay and Michael Fallen okay hi um so I I read the first volume of your diary is like like a year and a half ago and one of the things that struck me there's like a passage I think it's in the early like 2000s where you're having a conversation with Tony Blair and he says you know shall we do PR I I think you you maybe are advocating for yes and he goes oh you know I've thought about it I think it's too much constitutional reform in one go and but you're like oh you know let's put the Tories out for a generation and you know and in the end he decides no right and does it ever kind of keep you up at night that you know had you done that you know all this all this mess you know brexit you would have you would have kept out for a [Applause] generation did I say that cuz I was always very I was always a bit of a PR skeptic because I've but I and I still blow hot and cold on it um do I wish we'd kept the choice out for a generation yes I absolutely do uh do I think that PR might be part of the way of doing that in the future yeah possibly um does it keep me awake at I no given your given your concerns around popularism I mean PR is is also a way for populist parties to you know get absolutely I mean look Builders Builders has just won the Dutch election um now he's still not been able to form a government um but that has its own disadvantage as well he's actually gone considerably up in the polls since the election because he's not been able to form a government because the other parties are trying to trying to stop him I mentioned the afd in Germany I mean they you know they are on the March and it's it's it's a it's a PR system so I don't think PR is a Panacea but as I said earlier I do think our electoral system is bust uh and we have to we have to think about how we change it I actually think also one one of the things we talk a lot about on the podcast is this whole citizens assemblies thing I think it could be the first example of how you might use a citizen assem to try to come up with a different political system one it would expose to the country just how hard it is to do there's no such thing as an easy perfect political system um on the Irish Swiss neutrality thing I I don't I don't know what I think about that I'd have to check it out I hate talking about things that I don't I don't know what the context is um but I don't think there's a problem I think I think within the European Union I don't buy the idea that having Ireland neutrality is is somehow sort of huge strategic issue for the rest of Europe or for NATO I don't get that but I will I will look that up because I'd be surprised if George that was his view but could be wrong um on the female we've technically we've had two women leaders Harriet Harman and Margaret Becket have both been leaders of the labor party in interim roles Okay I accept that's not the same um but I thought it was interesting that there was I felt quite a muted reaction to the second part of your question I'm a great believer in Orin short list and I was in 1997 and I think we we sort of we broke a lot of eggs to make a few omelets and we got some great women into Parliament I think when it comes to the choice of who's going to be the leader of the labor party and therefore the person that you think should be the Prime Minister I think for that position to say we're cutting it down to 50% of the population I I I don't support that now um I do support for example what happens in I think the Welsh I think I'm right the Welsh assembly now has a system which guarantees there are 5050 roughly men and women within the assembly and I think we've now got a majority of women in the in the Welsh executive but I think for the position of prime minister no I wouldn't Spore that is there a deeper problem with labor I mean we've had three female prime ministers they've all been Tories yeah you know I've I've asked Rachel Reeves about this before and and she will say that there is still a residual problem with leftwing sexism or what you can call it what you like theal beer and sandwiches Brigade and that I think I think there is definitely within our I think the look there are some really really great Trade union leaders are women now okay which there weren't when I was a journalist there were none so there you know there are there has been progress within the Trade union movement but I think historically Labor's relations with the Trade union has given it maybe a more masculine Macho bent than it maybe should have um but I think the may I I I I I I'm sure there will be um one for you particularly for you guys um Eon has produced 21 prime ministers in our history they were all men by the way um the labor party's produced six so I actually think that's a a bigger issue within our politics I think his class as much as sex so we're going to do one more round of questions um got lot questions up there's a couple there's a couple of people right at the back there who have their hands up very that's definitely the brexit guy you think are you the brexit GU I've got the ear my ear is can we do is there there two of you there that have questions yeah okay uh no he was raising his hand so we get increased probability of getting picked anyway uh so during rishy Sun's term uh inflation is more than halfed there has been legislation that's come in to reduce uh illegal immigration and as well as uh on well to be uh decided if there's going to be economic growth and reduce debt and my question for you is you spoke a lot on what uh you saw a lot of visions that K sto could uh better uh Britain but you didn't mention uh what he would actually do so could you evaluate a bit more on that uh well I'm not the I I'm not a member of the lab party Jeremy kick me out um I think no I think look what what I would I said earlier I think he's got his five missions I think that the the manifesto is going to be built around them and I think what he's deliberately doing is using them as strategic pillars if you like which come the manifesto will be set out with detailed policy and actually I think what he's done quite cleverly this goes back to joshu's point of P he got a I think he's a different sort of politician I've been screaming week after week you know when's the big stuff going to come that we're going to know about and I do think it's still to come um is that is that I mean you've studied a lot of electoral Cycles are they leaving a little late in the day or I mean it's normal not to reveal too much policy I feel they are but at the same time I think we're in a very very different world to the one that we were and I think that what what you do when you have a when you have a sense of a kind of quite a blank canvas is that with this mood that is saying you know oh well labor are going to win anyway which as I said I don't subscribe to necessarily but it means that if and when they are coming out with stuff there's going to be an awful lot of interest in it they're not going to want for attention whereas actually what is often the case for the opposition is you're really struggling to get attention yeah we'd all be thrilled to see some policy I think very exciting um I think we'll do one more question go on then um some there's a a chap right at the front here let's go there there's a microphone coming noar you got the online people can you hear me now yeah um distasteful though it may be is there a case for um tactical voting is there a case for tactical voting I don't think it's distasteful at all um now one of the one of the advantages of having been kicked out the labor party is that I think it's still a breach of the rule of the labor party membership to say that you should vote for another party right but I've got to say if I lived in a constituency where the lib Dems were 1500 behind the Tories and labor were a distant third I would have no hesitation whatsoever so um I don't see that as distasteful at all I think that look we talk about the electoral system I actually do think that the driving Narrative of this coming election there's always a big question right and I think the I think the driving Narrative of this question is can this country really take another term of this government and if you're answer that is no you vote for whatever you think helps you there if you think that it is then fine you vote Tor and you know let your kids pick up the pieces afterwards all right um I will remind you that Alison's book is just come out in paper back and it is on sale somewhere at the back so please do pick up a copy if you haven't got one already I shall wander up the back he will be signing um books there I just want to say thank you very much to intelligence squ for having us and thank you for alist to alist for a very interesting entertaining evening thank you thank you that

Channel: Intelligence Squared

Views: 70,502

Keywords: intelligence squared, debate, intelligence squared debate, top debates, best debates, most interesting debates, intelligence2, intelligencesquared, iq2, iq2 debate, iq squared, Intelligence Squared +, IntelligenceSquared, Intelligence squared plus, IntelligenceSquaredPlus, IntelligenceSquared+, intelligencesquaredplus, intelligencesquared+, Alastair Campbell, Keir Starmer, Rishi Sunak, Debate competition, Alastair Campbell on British Politics, Labour, Conservative, Saving Britain, Britain

Id: e2uIMKeSiGg

Length: 83min 38sec (5018 seconds)

Published: Wed Feb 07 2024