Keir Starmer says he is ready to be prime minister | Full interview

and they're all those badges never kiss tutorial are you like that or do you want to break um are we allowed to us with who no um but look I'm not tribal I think this actually comes from uh coming into politics later in life outside of politics most of the time most people at home or at work see a problem get people around and try to fix it um and bring people together Bridge people together and do it and that's what I bring to politics therefore I've worked cross-party um I'm on very good terms with many many Tory MPS I'm not ashamed about it and I've got very good friends who are Tories um and they've been very very good friends of mine for a very very long time and long may that last you know it's a very um big prize winning a general election and um you know particularly for me I came into politics sort of later in life having done other things and being in opposition is a complete frustration because you know you can vote but if you're losing when you're voting you're not really changing lives so winning that election is is a precious precious prize um I'm you know so it is difficult and we have to be careful um but that's been the position since I took over as leader of the labor party so we've been on this journey for what two and a half years now got a little bit further to run and you and you're making master classes in how to how it is and I I can also talking to Tony Blair and Gordon Brown what advice have they given you about being prime minister well I've been talking to Tony Blair and Gordon Brown for some time now because I wanted to make sure I understood how those years two or three years before you go to the general election and hopefully win it what that feels like the pace the policies not so much you know that was a long time ago now 94 95 running into the 97 election it was a long time ago so you can't replicate the policies but the pace the way that we do politics I have taught them a lot about what that period felt like what needed to be done when I'm conscious going back to the shadow cabinet that we've been unfortunately out of power for 12 years that means I don't have people around the shadow cabinet table who've got huge experience in government that's actually the same position that Tony Blair had going into 97 I think from memory he only had Margaret Beckett so I'm determined that we need need to be prepared for government and ready to hit the ground running but look I'm very methodical about this and this frustrates some people I'm afraid I we I picked up the labor party became leader on the 4th of April 2020. we just suffered our worst defeat since 1935 and when I was elected most people sort of shook me by the hand and said good luck here and then in the next breath said it is not possible to do this in a five-year parliamentary term all you can do is sort of begin the process I never believed that but I did know that I had to break the task into sort of three bits really the first bit was to change the party if you lose that badly you don't look at the electorate and say what were you doing didn't you hear us you look at the party and you say we've got to change this party so the hard work had to be sort of changing the party from day one and one of the first calls I made 20 minutes or so after I was elected leader was to the general secretary that Jeremy corbyn had appointed to tell her that we were parting company so we had to go really hard and fast on that the second bit then was to expose the government as not being fit to govern we've been ably assisted in that over the last 12 months and the third bit is if not them then why you um and that's what we've been able to set out particularly at our conference this year and if you're in opposition it's actually really hard to get heard and there's a sort of Lighthouse beam it comes around only so often onto the opposition it came on to us at conference and what it illuminated was a party that's changed a party that has got the answers to the challenges the country is facing and a party that's got the confidence to go into government so the next bit is to make sure we're absolutely ready so that you know within that first hundred days we can put into effect some of the changes that we desperately need it is methodical and I know that in years one and two when we're at the early stages people are saying why don't you say more about what you're going to do where's the sort of bold ideas and I said till we've changed the party until we've exposed the government we can't get to the third place but we're there now and you've got your own version of a red box um for all your papers do you used to read that every day you in training and how'd your family feel about it because they must be the other ones that you have to prepare mentally if they are going to get into number 10. yeah so I get a the equivalent um uh and which is all the papers that I've got to read usually coming through in the evening ready for the next day papers to sign off briefing papers you know what you would expect in a red box that's not that unusual for me because obviously I was director of public prosecutions for five years and I had the equivalent lens so every day of the five years I got my red box my ministerial box of things that I had to read so the usual pattern is to get home at whatever time it is and then open that and start working through those documents so I'm used to that way of working um obviously what I need to do is make sure the whole team gets used to that way of working and what about your family are they how do they feel about it because it can be incredibly intrusive for the spouses and children of people who go into number 10. it is really impactful and I do think about this a lot our children are now our boys 14 our little girl is 11. we've taken the decision collectively but my wife and I that we will protect them as far as we can so we don't use them in photo shoots I never actually say their names in public because I want them to have as much protection as they can um but it is difficult and it's you know as I said a little girl's 11 um her bedroom is on the front of our house and when there are sort of loads and loads of journalists outside the house sometimes for days on end it's really upsetting for her because she's got to get out that house get to school Etc so it really does impact on them um we try to you know run as normal a life as possible and the way we've done that is firstly to have designated time for our children so I do not want to be the man sitting in your studio or some other studio in 10 years time saying I wish I'd spent more time with my children now they're in their 20s um because um if you really want to spend more time with their children then do it so I've got a sort of rule of a hard stuff on a Friday of six o'clock um I won't be doing any work I'll be at home with the children on the odd occasions when I'm at home when they come home from school that is absolutely fantastic so we do all that um and then with Vic my wife she doesn't do any interviews she doesn't do any stuff um you know where she's putting her views out into the public domain she's got her own life she works in the NHS she's a very sassy woman and um we do we've taken the decision that she doesn't want to be in the in the Limelight um she wants to get on with her life well your son's natural very nice trainers you're wearing today so there must be some benefits which do they are very cool they're black with orange yeah so uh sardon is 14 and he's very conscious of what everyone's wearing most of the time he will turn his nose up for anything I am wearing um but I got some really nice trainers some boss trainers a little while ago and the point at which I realized just how good they were is when I was walking down the street with him um and his feet are the same as mine and he was wearing my trainers without asking of course I've obviously passed the test in his mind at least in relation to those trainers and if you get to number 10 will you keep the gold wallpaper or is that do you think you're going to change it well I think it's probably going to be a number of changes we're gonna have to make um but we'll see I don't think it's gonna be to my taste it may not be a wallpaper man I think there will be no stories about what we're doing redecorating if we get that far but as Vic my wife always says one step at a time maybe no money left either to do anything we wanted to take you back to your childhood to find out what motivates you and um you may have joined the establishment now but it wasn't a privileged background that you had you were the second of four children your mum was a nurse your dad was a tool maker um but they were labor party supporters who named you after the party's first parliamentary leader that is extraordinary that um what does the name mean to you I mean we don't actually call you care in the same way that we say Boris or Rishi would you like to just be known as Kier do you think well I am known as kid by most people who know me and I've because here is relatively unusual most of the time um people name is Kieran they don't need to use my second name because I'm the only care that they know I mean my mum and dad did call me after Kia Hardy I can't claim any credit for that obviously I wasn't party to that um decision they were they were a labor family um but you know things were tough at times my dad worked in a factory um all his life my mum was a nurse um but you know she soon became too busy with four children and too ill to have um to carry on working as a nurse or any other job and so it was tough it was you know one income from my dad running a family of four children um and it was you know I'm not gonna plead poverty or any greater hardship than anyone else but it was tough going at times and one of the things that helps me in the cost of living crisis we're going through now is knowing what it's like to struggle to make ends meet know what it's like in our case our phone was cut off because that was the amenity that it was easiest for us to have cut off rather than electricity or or any other form of energy so I do know what that feels like to have to make those decisions and have to lose something for a while whilst you can't pay for it and other bits and pieces around the house I mean it was a Pell Dash semi um it was quite tight in there three bedrooms six people handling in your bedroom me and my brother and a bunk bed all our life I mean we didn't have room for two beds in the room but I'm not plea I'm really not pleading property and I didn't feel it to be honest at the time I didn't think that this was odd but I was in a bunk bed until I left um to go to university because we didn't have space for two beds in the bedroom and there were other things we didn't have the money to redecorate that off to you know the carpet on the stairs was a bit thread bare that I do remember because that was when we were sort of inviting people around I was thinking um it does look a bit shabby but I didn't we didn't feel poor we didn't feel put upon um it was just the way it was but it does help I think when now trying to you know come up with the answers for people who are really really struggling and the cost of living crisis is absolutely dominant many people listening to this many people this winter worrying about how they can pay their bills and I know what that feels like and your mum also had this incurable condition called Steele's disease what were the symptoms of that how did that affect her and you as a family so it's a very aggressive juvenile in her case form of arthritis that um started with her when she was 11 all her joints got inflamed she couldn't walk she has was in hospital for a year when she was a teenager um and the prognosis was that it was so aggressive in her case so the immune system sort of turns on itself she was told you won't be walking after you're about 20 you'll be in a wheelchair and you won't be able to have children um now for my mum that sounded like a challenge that she was going to meet um she was helped by the fact that they discovered steroids as a drug that you could use in relation to Still's disease so she started on steroids when she was a teenager um and I was I think the longest ever steroid patient in the country because she was on steroids for all of her life the combination of that was that it delayed some of the aggressive parts of Stills delay so she had to have her knees replaced when she was in her 20s she struggled a lot but she did have children and she walked in her 20s she was determined to have children she had four children very very quickly after she was married because she'd been taught she desperately wanted children she'd be told she wouldn't be able to have children and therefore um she got on with it and had her children but it was tough she couldn't walk she was very ill and the steroids were you know partly fantastic because they allowed her to walk for longer than she would otherwise have been they almost certainly allowed her to have children when she wouldn't have otherwise been able to do but they it was a it's a tough price because the stories themselves caused um all sorts of problems with her body where she couldn't heal she was very vulnerable and every time she went into hospital it was a crisis situation because she was very prone to any infection that was going around and so we spent you know too much of our time as children in hospital with my mum in you know High dependency units um worrying about whether she was going to pull through and you know I distinctly remember the first time I was told mum wasn't going to pull through when I was about 13 and it's it's very very tough as it happens she did but um it was part of life it was part of what I guess gave me some of the characteristics I've got because my mum was hugely courageous whatever she was going through she would head towards it completely determined every time she had an operation every time she was nearly done and out she got back up determined um to walk and she had this incredible thing where she never moaned about it so she could be in real pain and you could see the pain she'll painkillers every single day of her life towards the end of her life she couldn't walk she couldn't really move her limbs she couldn't feed herself um in the end she couldn't speak and this is one of the things that I tried not to regret things in life but the fact that our children didn't really know my mum because although she was still alive she couldn't really move out of her bed and couldn't speak is a big regret in my life but she never moaned about it you know if you ever asked her obviously until she didn't speak anymore how she was her stock answer was I'm all right how are you and that has given you know if anything has given me determination um and courage or run towards a problem run towards a challenge and overcome it it's that's all come from that Steely resolve from my mom and what was it like for your father because your relationship with him must have been very different but it also it must have been very difficult for the whole family to pull together and not really have your mom around did he give you support as well it had a huge impact on my dad the wedding vow that he took to you know stand by my mum through good health or ill he took absolutely to heart and therefore he devoted himself to looking after my mum every single thing if she couldn't walk if she had any problems he learned all of the drugs she needed he'd learn all the symptoms she needed he knew her illness and her difficulties better than anyone in the world and he made sure he was always there for her it was incredible every single thing he did was focused on and channeled through her um incredible support and she wouldn't have made it through without it she absolutely wouldn't have made it through without him he was by her side every single day if she was at the hospital he was at the hospital he would sleep on the benches in the hospital he wouldn't come back until she was out of the hospital it was an incredible devotion huge impact on his life it did mean he was very focused on her and his relationship with us was more distant if I'm honest um I think there are a number of reasons for that I think that was a generational thing in a way um but um he was arm's length you know if if we needed Comfort or a smile or to be told we've done well that would come from mum um it wouldn't really come from Dad he was much more distant but he carried something all his life which I've thought about a lot recently and that is because he worked in a factory he felt disrespected he felt that he he hated a situation when people around where people say well what do you do for a living and so I said well I'm an accountant I'm a lawyer I'm a banker and he would say I work in a factory I'd not be a sort of pause in the conversation and he hated that um he could feel and he was a tool maker he was a skilled man and it's hard work it's skilled work but he felt that people didn't respect that and that plus looking after and came my mum led him to withdraw so he didn't like having people around him because he the more I think about he I think he feared that port in the conversation when he said what he did for a living he didn't feel and it drove a real sense of Injustice in him but it put distance you know between us um I kind of wish I'd I feel there's lots of conversations I didn't have with my dad um and that's hard um and it's I've thought about this a lot more I have to say since I've had children I've thought about this a lot more than I have done in in the intervening years because I think about my own children and what sort of relationship I'm having with them and determined that it will be different it will be closer more physical more engaging now I'm sure they'll be on a show like this in 20 or 30 years and say the problem with my dad is you know you want to be with us the whole time you know every time on a Friday used to insist that we all stayed in yeah but uh it has it's it's caused me to think really hard about what it means to be a parent was he quite an angry person did you feel that he was quite angry degree as a father was here for bullying or was it more just that he was very distant not bullying but a deep sense of Injustice and I think that my sort of political antennae were awoken by that sense of Injustice that this just wasn't it wasn't right um and and it's why I'm burning sort of sense that um we have to be careful about respecting people whatever they do and it's really interesting for me because of course I was the first in my family because you know University and my parents are really proud of that because they for them and this was the same for many many many um Farmers I think the same time their general rule of life was whatever the ups and downs things will get better for our children and it and you know there are lots of ups and downs actually for them but it comforted them the sense that that was happening so I go off to University but whatever which is great it'll be fantastic and you know really gave me an opportunity that I really wouldn't otherwise have had but we do as a country as assertive we put University up there and we don't put sort of skills technical skills on a sort of par and I think that's totally wrong I always think of my journey my dad's Journey he was skilled he was you know incredible thinking man I went off to University and if I was in the conversation that he feared and people said what do you do for a living and I said as a lawyer there wouldn't be the Gap um and that I'm determined will do something about and you got into grammar school and your other siblings didn't go was that another difficulty did you find that embarrassing in any way or did you feel you had more of an obligation to pay something back to society or it's quite hard isn't it when you when you go different directions in a family yeah it was odd I mean in the sense that I was going to one school the three of them were going to a different School you know when I get asked these questions the truth is I didn't really think about it that much at the time it was different they were in a different school but we had different groups of friends and I don't think that's that unusual did they tease you at all yeah of course they did you know going off to your schools yeah of course they did um but you know go the 11 plus was really I didn't really know what the 11 plus was we were sitting down at school and something was putting papers were put in front of us and I didn't I didn't have an expectation of getting through um and one of the things about my childhood which again is really important to me is and I tread carefully here but um my brother had real difficulties at school learning um for one reason or another um and um therefore wasn't progressing as quickly as the rest of us and my parents my dad in particular instilled in me that my brother's progress was just as impressive as mine and he's absolutely insisted it's one of the reasons I've always said before that he didn't when we're growing up he found it very hard to express Pride or any emotion with us really but Pride but partly that was driven by this sense that he didn't want to say this progress is good and that progress isn't good and it's instilled in me um firstly um a sense of proportion I didn't go swaggering around at school saying I'm going to be the prime minister or anything like that I really didn't I didn't even think I was going to be a politician but it's also made me if anybody uses the word thick the anger in me is profound absolutely profound because um you know my brother did progress just as far as I did um and um that should never be forgotten do you think you've inherited or learned from your dad some of that sort of stiff upper lip version of masculinity because politicians are supposed to be able to emote and be kind of heart on sleeping do you think that's maybe why you don't do that so much there are things I've taken from him undoubtedly um and he did find it very hard to express his emotions and didn't really do it very often other than the Devotion to my mum you could see that you could that was a daily reminder of devotion and Duty I think he probably gave me a real sense of Duty and a sense of forbearance there are many things we couldn't do because mum couldn't do them and he was never going to do it without her so we went on holiday to the same um x minus Cottage in the Lake District year after year after year after year for two reasons mum loved it um and two she probably couldn't have got very far else I've never been back yes I have yeah yeah yeah we well we went up when my mum and dad were still alive um to to stay with them out there but you know we my mum only once went on a plane in her whole life and that was from London to Manchester on for a honeymoon uh on the way guess where the Lake District never been abroad never had a passport um so there was a sense of forbearance things we didn't do there wasn't much money around and Mum couldn't do it so we didn't do it and so he's given me those quarters but to your point on masculinity a bit certain masculinity but I think the men men have changed actually from my dad's generation it's not it's not just me the way I am with my children is much more common now and that's a very very good thing um I don't think it's I don't think it's about masculinity but there is an element of of men interacting differently as we go forward and there are always lots of animals in your house dogs and particularly donkeys everyone Associates you with donkeys as much as anything else which always fascinates me um but you know a lot about donkeys yeah so well um we had four dogs so each the children got a dog and just pitched the same mine was called Percy don't ask me why beautiful dog um really I mean pretty half brain to be honest um but um fantastically beautiful dog but just imagine the scene of the star household going on holiday to the Lake District in a in a saloon car with Mom and Dad in the front four children in the back and four dogs in the car and everything we needed for a couple of weeks in a cottage in the Lake District so we were surrounded by animals all of the time but my mum and dad were particularly devoted to donkeys and um as they got older they sort of collected donkeys if there was a donkey that was in distress anywhere uh I was going to say the south of England but they'd probably go all over the country to rescue a donkey that they thought was in some danger of um being badly treated um and in the end they had four donkeys and I've often joked that they you know they as each of us left home they effectively replaced us with a donkey and and they were great companion I mean my mum dad absolutely loved because they were great companions for my mum and dad when my mum could still walk she would hold on she would just hold on to the donkey to walk sort of a bit around the field behind us as a sort of something to stabilize her as she was still able to walk for my dad I think that you know that inability to express his emotion work quite well with donkeys because they didn't ask us about they didn't ask her a lot but they do make an amazing noise don't they do make amazing noise um uh and they're incredible animals but yeah they were absolutely devoted did you learn for leading the labor party from having be in charge of donkeys well um patience I don't know whether either of you have had experience of trying to get donkeys to do something they don't want to do it's hard work you've got to be patient you've got no way you're going you've got a cajole and gently get them to where you need to be I'm sure there's quite a lot of political lessons in there and you also played a ridiculous number of instruments as a child so they flew the piano the violin the recorder and you had lessons with Norman cook who went on to perform the very famous DJ Fatboy Slim so do you ever think you could have become a musician do you wish you had one of them I don't ever think I could have done um I but you must have been quite talented hard and I got to be a junior exhibitioner at the guildhall school of music so from 11 years heltonwood on I came to 18 I came up to London every Saturday to the guildhall School of Music um just through hard work basically yeah it was no no hard work and practice but what I learned when I got there was that I was never going to be able to do this as a career because there were really talented people just people had an incredible ability so I'd got there through practice and hard work but then it goes to another level um and really really talented people and I knew then that um I was never going to be able to be good enough to be a musician I'm not sure I really wanted to be I enjoyed doing it it's given me a lifelong Love Of Music um listen to a lot of pop music of course but a lot of classical music I listened to partly because I did so much of it when I was growing up when I was at guildhall school of music and there are other skills this is why I think it's really important for schools if you're playing in an orchestra or a quartet whatever it may be it doesn't matter what your instrument is you've got to make eye contact with someone because you've all got to do something at the same time you've got to work as a team there are skills there which go Way Beyond music and that's why amongst other reasons I think that we should do much more of Creative Arts at school all because these are the skill these are the subtle skills if you like that children need to go into you know Monday work and you graduated first from Leeds and then Oxford um in law how did you choose law was it because you wanted to follow this sort of established part did it seem a very serious or middle class professional did you actually want to just change the world no so I wanted to change the world so when I was a teenager I joined the labor party I got very into politics and I I wanted to really go into politics and it was my mum and dad who said no um you need to get a decent job um and law was I mean we talked about it but it was sort of their idea to be honest I didn't really know what going into law meant um I didn't know any lawyers mum and dad didn't have any friends who were lawyers I'd never met a lawyer I'd no I didn't what does a solicitor do embarrass to do I don't think I knew that when I arrived at University but I did law because everybody had decided this and I decided that this was one way of sort of channeling a bit of the um politics through legal cases but in something which much more stable than politics um and then I got to Leeds I love Leeds by the way it's fantastic and it was I mean I think everybody who goes to university has this experience of living somewhere else but for me going from a relatively small town rural area to go to Leeds a city um in in Yorkshire was absolutely fantastic sort of blew my mind with all the different experiences I've never had before I loved doing law I really found it fascinating um and changed from an initial view that I'd probably um go and be a solicitor probably in Leeds I thought at that stage I even did interviews with law firms in Leeds to then thinking no I like this too much I want to probably become an advocate but I want to do a bit more study of law which is what I did at Oxford but I'm supposed to be the inspiration for Bridget Jones's did she human rights lawyer boyfriend Mark Darcy do you think you might have been and do you no idea who played him no I haven't I have no idea I've been asked so many times and my answer to me it'd be great to be on one of them jumpers because that's I think no things I wouldn't do so probably that dashes the whole idea really um and we how do you think Swit criminal defense Mr to being Chief prosecutor because that's a huge jump as director of public prosecutions yes but there's been a sort of Journey on this for me and it's the journey that because people often ask me well what was it then that took you from being a law into politics and it was a journey that started pretty early actually in my career because I started as a lawyer doing individual cases employment casing housing cases for an individual one individual at a time sorting out the Injustice in their particular case and um then not by accident but I sort of stumbled upon the death penalty now obviously you know having studied laurently as I realized we didn't have the death penalty in this country but um many people I don't think appreciate that for the former colonies that are now independent in particularly in the Caribbean and Africa um there's a Rite of appeal to a court in London still that's been written into their constitution for a very very long time so a few years into practice as a lawyer I suddenly got a case on behalf of someone on death row in Jamaica and I had to go down to the privy Council then used to be in Downing Street to argue for the life of this man in Jamaica and who had no money but was facing um death by hanging I then did very many of those cases um and took the decision that the individual battles needed to be won but there was a strategic battle that needed to be won as well and we formed a team that fought these cases strategically here and in the Caribbean eventually in Africa as well on behalf of many hundreds of people in the end who were on death row in each of those countries and um that took me away from the individual individual into strategic you know how do you achieve something for a bigger group of people if you like it also um you know instilled in me what tough decisions are like because people often say well you want to be prime minister do you know how to make a tough decision and my answer that is if you sat in a Cell um in a Caribbean jail with someone who's going to live if you get the argument right in their case and die if you don't that's a pretty um that focuses the mind and what you've got to do from that I then um developed uh into how else do I work strategically and I went to work in Northern Ireland with the Police Service in Northern Ireland um under the Good Friday agreement the old ruc was becoming the Police Service of Northern Ireland and part of that involved people like me going across to implement the change that was needed so that took me away from Individual cases much closer to policy and politics and how do you make change at a bigger scale um and from that then the transition into becoming director of public prosecutions was much more natural if you like which is how do you deliver Justice for very many and people hundreds of thousands of people across the whole of England and Wales and that is a learn you know to go for an individual case where you've got a team of four through strategic teams into then having you know seven thousand staff and being responsible for hundreds of thousands of decisions was a big step um but it was a step on the way to this sense that if you want to affect range you've sort of got to go up the whole time and from that I could see the only way to affect some of the change I thought we needed was then to go into politics um and become Prime Minister although when I came into politics in 2015 um if we'd had this interview then and you'd ask me if I was going to be prime minister I'd have said no um I didn't you know I didn't I didn't I've never had some people say oh well I was 14 I knew I want to be prime minister not with me um and there is something serious here that I do think is really important um and it's it's about me but it's not really about me so just bear with me the reason I wouldn't have said when I was 14 that I want to be prime minister is because I didn't particularly think that people like me would ever be prime minister um I didn't think people are me would be a politician um because I came from a very ordinary working class background my aspiration was the same as many working class um children which was you know get a decent job get a decent house um you know get on in life but I didn't think that someone like me would be prime minister so I didn't think it then I didn't think in 2015 when I came in I never had that sort of arrogant Swagger but I do say to children now when I go into schools even the constituency now more across the country don't be held back by that thought because it worries me that some children today I can see it where the biggest barrier to their aspiration is a little thing in their head that says that's not for children like me it's really it's a really powerful thing and um that's why I want lots of exposure for children in schools to everything that's going on around them not just a narrow curriculum of you know can you pass this exam but the experience of knowing I didn't know a lawyer so I didn't think I was going to be a lawyer there'll be millions of children out there who don't aspire to be things that they would be brilliant at because they don't know about it and something in their head is holding them back and that that for me is very very powerful there's one interesting thing picking up on the sort of death penalty there's quite a sort of moral ethical Dimension to your law and then your politics but if you became prime minister you'd be the first atheist in number 10 what impact do you think that would have do you think it matters now or not I the first thing I'd say is I have a profound respect for faith um I really do and therefore I really don't think it'll make any difference because it's an incredible respect that I have for Faith and the strength of faith and I can absolutely see how important faith is and what it means to people and you see this in different ways but if you take the pandemic a sort of pull of faith on people to a sense of purpose um a sense of being particularly in times of anxiety so I don't actually think that um you know whether I'm of Faith or not makes very much difference it's the it's the it's I have do have a respect um deep deep respect for Faith um all faiths that I carry with me everywhere I go and you're not actually kill your circuit aren't you what is it like getting on like were you embarrassed at all or was it rather amazing going to Buckingham Palace with your family and look it was amazing I mean the first thing is did you take the dogs and the donkeys no I mean I got a Knighthood for services to law um mainly because I was the director of public prosecutions for five years um and also a little bit because of some of the other stuff I'd done on the death penalty um and other changes to the law along the way including Northern Ireland um among the reasons that um it was important to me was um firstly for my staff if you were one of the seven thousand members of the crown prosecution service and your boss gets recognized he in my case but whoever it is is getting recognized because of the work that you've done because and that's really important they were proud they're vicariously proud of the fact that their boss is getting this um award partly for my mum and dad because for them to see that and they you know they've they have described going to the Palace when I got it as the proudest day of their lives but it you know by then my mom couldn't walk um it really wasn't very well at all so they had to drive up they couldn't have got there any other way my dad of course with his Devotion to my mum had adapted the car so there was a pulley and a special sort of crank and lift to get my mum into the car it always adapted everything for her got her into the car drove up and you know it was life was that their approaching someone would drive up we're driving to Buckingham Palace what's the issue up to the gate um because they were so devoted to their dog they had a great day and they always had a great day um they and they and the dog is very important we can't leave the dog at home so they stuck the dog in the back of the car because that was the natural thing to do and arrived at the gate and I said I'd meet them outside and they'd see this car um and I'm thinking are they really just thinking they're going to drive through the gate they've got the dog in the back there's about four or five police officers around them the dog starts barking the car start is a when a great day embarks it's a lot of noise the car starts are rocking from side to side and the police I was thinking what is this what do the corgis doing exactly what corgis in as it happens um it was Prince Charles as he then was who was giving me my Knighthood but um not they not only did they manage to get in with the dog in the back they then managed to persuade is one of the royal household to sit by the car to look after the dog in case the dog was lonely yeah well a little bit all got out I suspect um caused Havoc but um such was their Devotion to the dog and such was there they didn't think this was odd well we go to the Palace we'll put it the dog in the back of the car and we'll drive through the front gate what's the issue but but it was it was an amazing um day and and as I say they said it was one of the proudest days and that meant a lot to me it's a disadvantage in politics though because there is this kind of mismatch between your actual background and the perception what why do you think that is I think it's for a number of reasons until I became a politician people didn't ask me that much about my background I didn't constantly get quizzed you know what what you know what your Dad and Mum do for a living um it is important in politics because people need to know who you are what's your background what motivates you if you like um so but because I've never been asked really until I came into politics I've always been a bit reticent about it I've become better now um but my initial Instinct was to sort of um and not want to talk about my mom and dad or how I grew up or what it was like um so but I think you know the more people no they'll form their own views people listening to this will form their own views they may resonate some it may resonate some it may not I mean but I think at least knowing what it is is important that people can form their own views on it and it you know there are there are points of just it is very important I think for a politician to understand what it's like for millions of people in the difficulties and struggles and challenges that they have in their life and their aspirations and their you know you know we're we're always particularly in labor sort of tend to talk in terms of struggle and challenge but actually aspirations and opportunities most people want to get on um and want to do well and they want their children to do well if they've got children and Angelina said to us that you know eye over sharing care undershares um and there has been something in there and and I think it is difficult as a lawyer isn't it but you both suffered these traumas as children you've had difficult resulted in a way I think it made her more motive and you less so why do you think that do you think it was because your family just did hold their emotions in I think it was partly my family holding them in and I suppose I sort of um adapted and adopted that to some extent um I do think there are different ways of being emotional I mean I'm really passionate about the change we need to bring about and that drives me forward when you cry usually in relation to family issues and um you know my immediate family and this up this unconditional love that I have for my children I know everybody has it but you I didn't understand it until I had children um and you know we've gone through really difficult things sometimes in the middle of the leadership um campaign when I was trying to be leader a labor party my um my wife's mum had an awful accident and um was in intensive care until she died and with my own mum I've seen intensive care many many times I know what it looks like um but this was really really awful and were very very close and it was really hard to see this I found it very hard because it was not me I'd been actually through it but weird thing to say I know bear with me but I had lost at that stage I lost my mum uh two weeks or so before I became an MP um so she never saw me swollen um I'd lost my dad um and that was difficult because of the relationship and just knowing in a sense how how what's this end mean but seeing somebody else go through it was in a sense much harder because it was how do I reach um comfort when I could see what it was doing to her it was really really hard and sometimes people ask well you know what's your sort of um game face or political phase that that was really that was one of the most difficult periods and that's you know was emotional highly emotional but somehow and other politicians have had to do this you've got to flicks I remember being you know backstage about to go on for a big hustings um and Vic was on the phone obviously very very upset about what was happening and you know moments later I was to sort of go on the stage and um and you know have a smile and be positive and this is what we're going to do and and that's why some of the absolutely Daft questions we get like you know what's the most exciting thing you which I've I got in those hustings I was going through this with Vic and our kids huge and then I got this Daft question what's the most exciting thing you've done oh it drove me on the wall I just said look um I'm trying to be the best husband and the best dad I can be just at the moment um and I just haven't got time for this question you know people just have to judge on that that's why some of these questions were mad but so there's a I mean most of that emotion for me comes from that place but answers are different but I mean and she's my relationship with Andrew is real I'm so fond of Angela and we do get on really really well because we are different we come at things differently and that actually works um but Andrew is an incredible person I mean her story is um a story of real inspiration I think for many many many people particularly women um and she used much but she's got a more emotional reaction than me to most things and that's good she's also got a steerly sort of sixth sense of of what really matters um and I'll tell you one other thing um about and and our relationship and that is if I'm having a hard time and we'll know she'll be in touch with me and she'll have my back and it's amazing and I would do the same for her throughout you know behind the scenes we all have things we have to deal with um and you know whatever you know I'm not saying we agree or I'm not saying we agree on everything and I but actually we're very fond of each other and there's something core there about looking out for each other there is something really interesting about the number of politicians who have overcome some kind of trauma in childhood Tony Blair said to us he thought it was a Spur to success that there was something that drove you on Beyond other people do you why do you think it is I mean more than half of prime ministers have lost a parent in childhood and even more have had some kind of trauma why do you think that is what is it that people are looking for a kind of external endorsement is it that people are kind of have an ambition sort of forged in fire I think it's probably different for everybody but it may instill a sense of change and getting out there and doing something um for me I suppose I I didn't plot out my life story I just walked towards the next challenge and every time I walk towards it um The Challenge got bigger it sort of got elevated and elevated as I went through life and I walked towards the next challenge but I didn't now I look back on the things I've done I would never have predicted earlier in my life that I'd have done half of those things so that may be different to other people who may have had a much stronger sense of Destiny I've just this is probably my mum and me which is walk towards the challenge and do something about it and that that goes back to this whole question of emotion and passion and um what drives you what that means for me and this is I've found this very much in politics because the transition from law to politics is a very old one because you're you know you're used to a courtroom with evidence with rules with rationality with a decision um and suddenly go to politics where none of that really counts very much um but what I can't stand is people who walk Round and Round the problem and maybe very eloquent and people say a fantastic speech but the number of people who give fantastic speeches describing the same problem without actually fixing it drives me up the wall um and you know that's that's where my passion is which is actually let's let's identify what the problem is Let's Be really accurate about what needs to change let's just get on and do it uh rather than talking about it so but I think that's a bit that's a bit of my mum's sort of determination and a bit of my dad's pragmatism which is you know in the same way that he adapted the car so that um so my mum could get in and out he had trolleys he had um pulleys and things across uh the room in which she slept in the end so he could get around in and out of bed um he he just adapted to the challenge and do you think it's harder for Rishi sunak to be prime minister being so rich in some ways I mean I know we joke about the sort of Prada shoes on the building site but that there is a sense in some ways isn't there that it's quite hard because you become quite distant from people when you have that much wealth yeah I don't think I mean I wouldn't say that wealth or rich is is an impediment I mean I don't I I don't think that's right there are plenty of people who've got you know quite a lot of money a lot of money who absolutely get it and understand so I I do think he's out of touch I don't think he I don't think he really understands what it's like for the millions of people who are suffering at the moment I don't think he's got a sense of that I wouldn't you know I wouldn't go for the wealth or richness because actually as I say I know plenty of wealthy and rich people who do absolutely get it I think it's uh something deeper for him I just don't think that he can empathize um with that and and that's why people remember um the filling up somebody's else's car not being able to know how you pay for petrol it is such a on one level you'd say well it's just a small thing you know all politicians in the end make mistakes that we all laugh at and that's true including myself and we have to be ready for all that laughter that other people enjoy but it told a story I think that people remember that they would they tell it back to me if you don't know how to fill up your car I don't have to pay for it then you're probably not in touch with my life do think these are better prime minister though than Boris Johnson or lose trust there is a bit more competence back in Downing Street well I mean it's a pretty low bar isn't it um he's he's different with Boris Johnson it was all about character it was over promising something not really delivering on it and then descending into character the whole time um and you know I think Boris Johnson not delivering really really was the most frustrating thing and I you know let's not make this party political Theresa May I worked with when I was director of public prosecutions and she was Home Secretary and on things like modern slavery she knew what she needed to do and she chaired the task force on that she had a plan an implementation plan she was determined to see it through Boris Johnson talks of you know leveling up Etc but if he really really meant it he would have driven it through um and he never did because it was never more than words for him so um that was him and character um you know Liz truss was a short experiment an extreme an extreme version of what drives through the ideology of the Tory party which is this idea that somehow wealth is really come from the top and then trickles down rather than um bottom up a middle out which I believe um and then on to Rishi sunak what I would say about Liz truss and refuse to know which is I think is a good thing is that the Divide now is political rather than character because Johnson was because his character was always an issue it always forced people to put my character somewhere else and make a character divide you know that cures this sort of person emotionals and that sort of person um which I was never that comfortable with now it's more of a political divide a less trust in particular which you just said this is what I believe um and she went for it I mean had devastating consequences for the economy of the country but it was a political divide the same with Rishi sunak it's a political divide between what we think and what we believe but that only goes so far you know what is this the fifth prime minister in six years um I you know that tells a story um and Rishi sunak is not going to be the answer to the problem uh that the conservative party have because they're a split party and I think that he's actually weak in the sense that um he's put a cabinet around him that is necessary in order to avoid going to the electorate I actually think I mean it's you know it's his choices I think not going through to get elected as leader of his party is a real weakness that there should be Amanda it should be a general election that's why most people are saying it should be a general election of course they should but even within its own party because he's not won an election he doesn't have a mandate um and therefore he's going to really really struggle I think going forward it's a problem though that the tourists now have had three female leaders and the first non-white Prime Minister and and labor alternates between white men from different bits of North London or do you think that's slur about sort of north londoners um it's actually rather ridiculous uh the the north London slow is absolutely ridiculous utterly ridiculous it's just ridiculous I mean I've worked across the whole of the country all my life when I was head of the crown prosecution service I had 7 000 staff in every single County in England and Wales and I worked with them in their offices across the whole of England Wales it is absolutely ridiculous attack um but but the more important question away was we do need a female leader of low party uh we really do we've done fantastic things I've got really powerful women around me if you look at you know Rachel Reeves Yvette Cooper Angela Rayner Lisa nandy Bridget Phillipson got really incredibly brilliant powerful women but does the labor party need a woman leader yes it does so your succession should be a woman well yes I mean you know ideally we'll have to see what the circumstances are but yes of course that you know I don't think we should shy away from that challenge um at all and Jeremy corbyn is still a huge problem for you isn't he because you campaigned at the last election for a man to become Prime Minister who couldn't say whether he was sure that Russia had been behind the Salisbury attack and didn't know the words of the national anthem is that how could you do that how did you really want him to be prime minister well if you've been in the late party all your life and you're a labor MP of course you want a labor government and that's absolutely straightforward in the same way that people campaign for Boris Johnson and or lined up behind Liz trust that is how Party politics Works in our world but you know we did lose our way um as a party and you know we went into that election to face the electorate and the electorate gave us their verdict um and what I've done is to recognize that pick the party up and say we've got to change all that we've got to make it absolutely clear um that you know we are not remote from the people that we're asking to vote for us we will not tolerate anti-Semitism I mean the first thing I said is lead a labor party was I'll tear anti-Semitism out of our party so um did we lose our way yes we did did I decide to pick the party up off the canvas change the party and put us into a position where we could serve our country yes that's what I have done I hope now to go the next bit which is not just to put us in a position to serve the country but to actually serve the country but yes did we lose our way yes we did have we found our way again I hope so and how much of the Corby Manifesto do you think you'll be keeping at the next election and do you still support free University tuition fees do you think or is that going to be too expensive as far as I'm concerned that Manifesto is gone um and um we start from scratch we've obviously begun to build our own case going forward but that Manifesto is history it's gone um we will free nutrition fees well I mean on tuition fees I think the current system is broken and we do need to change that and I think um that's a very important part of what we do um next but we will build our own Manifesto going into the next election it will be slim it will be focused it will be a story about the Britain that we want to see and it will be based on the missions that we want to achieve in government and uh foremost will be stabilizing and growing the economy which is the single most important thing um at the moment which is why we laid out a conference our plans for a green Prosperity plan for the you know for the future jobs um the future security and dealing with climate change so and how important is education going to be because Blair had education education education as his main priorities would you go for assessment reform curriculum reform will you kind of look really radically at education yes I think we've got to look radically at education and we're beginning to do that we had a big skills commission that David blunkett reported on or did for us reported just the other week um we want to have a conversation with you about your own commission because we need to change um education do you back things at the British Baccalaureate well I think we need to look at that because that's about broadening the curriculum I'm very determined that we will have a curriculum that um prepares children young people for the life they're going give them the skills they need for life and the skills they need for the jobs they're actually going to go into and that does mean change and are you thinking about a reshuffle or do you think the current team is right as it is will you will you change it at all before the next election well the current team is really good and we did a reshuffle um just about this time last year and we've got really good people out there and I think most people Way Beyond their own party would say that Labor's got some really powerful Advocates now out there on the airwaves out there making the case for us obviously football manager I'd say player manager arsenal of course football drives me you know if there's one period of the week that is absolutely protected it's when I play football at the weekend um in an outside game for 90 minutes with people I've played football with for a very very long time but yeah player manager I think I'd say rather than being very tribal about your politics because actually some people say they could never be friends with the Tories some labor left Wingers you know and they're all those badges never kiss tutorial are you like that or do you want to Broken that rule um but look I'm not tribal I think this actually comes from uh coming into politics later in life outside of politics most of the time most people at home or at work see a problem get people around and try to fix it um and bring people together Bridge people together and do it and that's what I bring to politics therefore I've worked cross-party um I'm on very good terms with many many Tory MPS I'm not ashamed about it and I've got very good friends who are Tories um and they've been very very good friends of mine for a very very long time and long may that last and looking back at yourself when you were sitting by your mum's hospital bed when you were 10 and it all really looked so Bleak and she was in real pain what you wish you'd known then that you now know the power of change and now you've said that I mean there was one occasion when I went into the high dependency unit when we thought we're going to lose mom and there were four or five nurses with image on the bed keeping her alive with with various um you know injections machines moving her keeping her alive it was most moving uh incredible thing to see and after hours mum survived and I thought you know I've got to thank the nurses just these things you do and it's hard to find the words to do that and their response was this is this is this is what we do and I just realized at that moment that for me this was the most incredible emotional thing that just saved my mom's life they were doing that every night every night and that was during a period where because of the death penalty work I was doing I was with the team receiving awards for the work we were doing because we were saving people's lives so I was getting Awards being recognized going on stages and these nurses were doing that every single night and every day and not they weren't noticed but we were not properly goes back to this business with my dad properly respecting what they were doing and um I've carried that with me ever since do you think if you had had an easier childhood you wouldn't have been so successful I don't know there's a very interesting question as to who who who you really are who we really are you know is there something innate that drives us forward um I just don't know and I if I look at my own children um we we've got a let's say 14 year old boy 11 year old girl about to be 12. and we think we're dealing with them both the same we interact with them exactly the same but they've got different strengths and weaknesses different things that they do and so that nature nurture thing what what really molds you what really shapes you is fascinating and I'm not sure I know the full answer I do know the more I think about it what are the influences on me when I was growing up um but what other influences may have pushed me in different directions I just don't know but I can I can see my own children differences okay starmer thank you very much for talking to us I'm fasting perfect thank you

Channel: Times Radio

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Id: AMqBmAFxPyo

Length: 62min 58sec (3778 seconds)

Published: Sat Nov 19 2022