(upbeat music) - Well, Gary, thank you so much for coming and chatting with us today. - Pleasure. - Let's start then as we always do. What is, in your opinion,
high performance? - Achieving, I suppose. And I think high performance, personally, is if you
can perhaps overachieve and do, do better than
perhaps people expect. Although, I always think
your own expectations are far more important than other people's expectations of you. So yeah, being successful
and ultimately being happy with your levels of success. And obviously, you know, I think we all get ambitious at times and try and push ourselves and
not everything is achievable, but I think a sustained high performance is also consistency related.
- Yeah. - So, I think that's important to do it over a long period of time. - Of all of those things, are you most proud of the fact that you have had consistency, whether it was in your football career or in your broadcasting career? - Yes, possibly. I think that's probably fair. I've managed to, I think what happens is, you obviously, you've learned what, I mean, I've been fortunate enough to do pretty well in
two different spheres, although they're both obviously
related 'cause they're both, you know, the one consistent in my entire lifetime is football. So, they're both related around football, but I think, you know, people often say, you know, "What were you better
at," and stuff like that. But I think, I always say I was born, I think I was born to be in the box, and I kind of learned
how to be on the box, and I'll end up in a box not long after. I haven't been around that long, but I think, yeah, I'm kind of proud of the
longevity I've had in football, and proud that I've, I
made something happen in terms of television that I probably wasn't a natural at it, certainly, not at the start. So I had to, you know,
football kind of came easy. I knew what I was doing. It was just, you know, obviously, you still have to work hard and give it everything, but it was, you know, I
had some kind of gift, whereas TV-wise, I understand the sport and understand football, but I
didn't understand television. So, I think that the
longevity I've had in TV, makes me perhaps prouder in
a way, because it was harder. - So, can you tell us
about your early life, then, Gary, growing up in Leicester, we just spoke off camera about. - Wish I could remember it. - So, we spoke there about your dad, being a market trader.
- Yeah. - And that's not an easy job, you know? It's long hours, early starts, etcetera, and you've just referenced
the importance of hard work. What other kind of lessons
were you picking up at that young age that
have still continued to serve you well? - It's difficult to remember
that much of my, my childhood, but most of it was playing football. But I think, in terms of work ethic, that came from my dad. I mean he lived life as well, and he'd get up at three,
four in the morning. He goes to the wholesale market, in Leicester to buy all his produce. He'd then go to the market stall. I mean, Leicester's a
famous outdoor market. I think at one time, it may still be the biggest
outdoor market in Europe. And he used to, you know,
then he'd go to the stall he'd set all his stuff up, put all the oranges and the
apples, the strawberries, the bananas, whatever it is. And you know, and then he'd
be serving customers all day. He'd get home, I don't know, 6:30 in the evening. He'd do his, he'd do his paperwork before, and he'd have some dinner and then he'd fall asleep on the couch. He'd have a day off a week and he'd played cards for 24 hours, solid drinking whiskey and stuff. But he worked all hours, and I mean, it was hard. I mean, especially, you know, winter when it's freezing cold, he's outside, and I think
what it did do for me though, was make me more determined
to be good at football, 'cause I didn't really want
to follow his footsteps to escape it subconsciously, I think. But yeah, I learned a lot
of lessons from my father. My mother was kind of, she was very calm. She's kind of, that's
where I get my personality from the fact that I'm
very kind of stable. I don't get too carried away. Neither up nor down, very easy going, I don't have a temper. I never saw my mom lose her temper either. - Right. - Whereas my brother's more like my dad. - So, you said you learned
a lot from your dad. What would you describe as the key things you learned from him? - Well, people often talk
about that my kind of the fact that I never got booked, I never got a yellow card or
a red card in my whole career. And I go back to, I remember one incident that I remember really well
is that I was playing again. I must have been about 14 at the time, and I was scoring a lot
of goals by that stage. And I think the referee
gave two or three decisions that I didn't agree with. And I swore at the ref, and I, you know, and my dad walked onto the pitch, grabbed me by the scruff of the neck, and said, "Right, you ever do that again, you will not play football." And he took me off the pitch. - In front of all your mates.
- In front of all my mates. It was like, "Whoa." - Was he the coach? Or was it just... - No, no, he was, he was just a parent. He said, you don't, you don't talk, you don't talk to referees. You don't talk to anybody like that. And just: scruff of the
neck, boom, in the van, home. And he used to, you know,
and he, he wasn't a coach, but he used to take the team around and we always used to sit in the back of the van, all
wobbling all over the place, the whole team. - And how, how would you describe your relationship with him? I was quite moved when I heard
you say on another podcast that the only time he said, I love you - [Gary] Yeah, yeah. - was as he was dying. - Yeah. Just before. Yeah, it was. And we were always very close. I mean, he was, he was, I mean, he, he would say that he was proud,
you know, occasionally and, and you know, and I know that he got a
lot of pleasure out of, of, of watching me play in
particular, which was important. And it, it's true. I
mean, when he was in his, when he ended up getting lung cancer, which wasn't overly
surprising that he'd get that. Cause he used to smoke about
60 to 80 day of those things without any tips on, I can't
remember what they called them. It was, you know, wasn't that
surprising, but, and he was, he's kind of phlegmatic about
it, but we used, you know, I used to go up to Leicester, and particularly towards
the latter stages, I was up there every
other day. I get a call. We're not sure he is gonna, you know, so I go and then back down to, so I was up and down and we had, and, and in that time we had
had more kind of meaningful conversations than we
probably ever had in our life, because all, everything before was just fun
and like banter or whatever you wanna call it. And then we had these, you
know, conversations and I, I mean, one of them was,
you know, I mean, when, when my parents were, when I was at school, when I was at, well, obviously 10 years old,
cause I passed the 11 plus. - Right. - But we just moved to a house in a place called Kirby Muxloe, which was outside the center.
So it was in the county. So when I passed the 11 plus
there was only one school that, that you could choose from. There's only one grammar
school in that particular area. And, and, but they didn't
play football there. So my dad said, well, we,
we, we can't have that. He said, that happened
to me when I was young. He said, I'm not gonna
allow that to happen to you. So he said, we'll move. So, oh right fine. And I went to live with my
grandparents for six months to enable me to go to, to what was then City of
Leicester Boys Grammar School. Obviously no grammar school's around now. Gotta be a certain age
to remember the 11 plus. So I lived my grandparents
for six months and I remember having a conversation with
them, said, I said, dad, I said, I said, that was a hell of a thing to do. I was like 10 years old.
What, you know, you must have. And I remember him saying,
he said, yeah, yeah. He said, no, I couldn't
let that happen to you. And he said, I could see your talent. I said, I said, you know, did you know, did you know that I was
gonna be, because I, because I never did. Even
when I was 22, 23, 24, I, I always thought I was
blagging it. And, and, and my dad said, I always knew. And I said, well, you could have told me. (trio laughs) And, and it was, and then this time with one
of the many chats that we had just before, just before he passed away, probably the last coherent
conversation I had with him, I was about to leave, I said, "Dad, I, you know, better
go now, it's getting late." And he said, "No, no son, you don't." And under his head he went, "I love you." And he was like, whoa. - [Jake] Yeah. - And I, I, I went, love you too, dad. And I, I got out and I got
in the lift and I was gone. I was crying and, and suddenly about eight nurses
and people came in the lift and it was like, oh, are you alright? Yeah. I'm sure they used to seen
people crying in hospitals. But, but it was moving. It, it
meant a lot because you know, that generation, they didn't, you know, they didn't share their
feelings very much. I think things it's changed now. You mean I'm totally different
from my kids than that, but it's just how it was. - And how much of that young
life then was about trying to impress your dad or trying to get that nod of approval from him? - Probably a lot of it
really, you know, I, I think most of us, we, you
know, we look up to our, our parents and then when,
eventually when we get adults, we, we work out that they've got weaknesses
and foibles as well. But yeah, absolutely. I'd always want to
impress, you know, my dad, my mom used to come and
watch my granddad as well. My granddad played for the army in the, for the British army. It kind of just before the
war or, or even during it, I think so, you know, he was
a really good footballer, so that's probably where
I get, you know, some, some certainly the speed
from cause he was rapid. So yeah, I think you want to
please your parents and I was, I was always the same, even,
even when I was a professional. - See, one of the things that stood out when I was reading about your young life as well, Gary, was just a variety of
sports that you did as well. So you were a good, a
good level cricketer. You were a really good
snooker player as well. How important do you think
that variety of doing different sports rather than just focusing
solely on football was for your eventual career? - It, it's hard to know
because that's how I did it. So I've got nothing to
compare it with, but I, I felt it's important, but I don't think it's that
uncommon for someone who's, you know, reaches the high level of, of, of sport in excellence to be
good at other sports because obviously there's a certain, you know, hand-eye coordination,
all those kind of things, certainly spatial awareness,
that sort of stuff. So it's not, I don't
think overly surprising. You can be good at other
sports. I mean, I, I was, I always thought I'd make
it at cricket, not football. - [Damian] Right. - When I was a kid, I
mean, I was very small. I didn't, I didn't reach puberty until I was until I was 17, which was embarrassing at times
in the shower when I joined Leicester, but I used to hide, sneak in the little shower at the end. So yeah. So I didn't really
grow until I was, which is, I think why my, why I was a slow to reach
the top in football. So I wasn't like, you know,
Michael Owen or Wayne Rooney or, or many of the young players
we see today that emerged in their teens. I didn't, I, it was I 20, 21 before I started to become a regular at Leicester. So yeah, I, I, so I, I
think that's, you know, you take all those things
into consideration, but I was always kind of,
everything I did surprised me, but I, in, in cricket, I
honestly believe I'm gonna, I'll make it a cricket. You know, I captained Leicester
schools right through, I played in the union schools festival. I, you know, I was, I
didn't get out very often. I was a bit boycott-esque,
but, but I loved cricket. - Did you reach a moment where, where you had to make that decision then? - I suppose so, but not really because
football's opportunity just came along. I went for, you know,
I, I'd joined them at, I think I was about 12
years old when I got spotted and I used to go, Tuesday, Tuesdays and Thursdays after school, and then Saturday mornings, if we didn't have a school
match to training at Leicester, at what would be called
an academy nowadays. And, and then I got, I had trials
when I was 16 and they said, we, we're gonna take
you on as an apprentice. And then cricket took a backseat, really. - Right. - That was it. So it was just the opportunity that came
along first was the one I, I've got no regrets about that. - And we have lots of teachers
and lots of parents that listen to this podcast. What advice would you give to
parents of talented youngsters or teachers who are looking
to get the best out of their young people to really empower
them, but not overhaul them? - Mm. Just encourage them really.
I think that's what I got. I mean, one of my pet
hates in life is, is, was watching my, not because I was watching my boys, watching my boys play
football or cricket or rugby, whatever it was they were playing, were the parents on the touch lines or even the coaches at times, because everything's so negative. Don't mess about with it there, boot it, And you just thought, no, you know, on the touch line. Everything is, like, negative. So, you know, the advice
I would always give them is, is, is just to be positive. I used to, I just sat on, or stood usually, on the side of the touch lines watching them for years,
and years, and years, never said a word. I'd clap if they did well, and then after the game I'd say, "Oh, you did really well." You know, just encouragement, building the confidence
and building the, you know, and then obviously you, you, you can, if they get to a certain level, you start seeing something
better, then you know, you, you encourage them to train. - Did you ever have cause to do what your dad did and
Jack 'them off by the ear for swearing at referees? - No, no, they wouldn't, no. - Was that already
established as not to do? - I, I don't know. They've, I think they've, most of 'them have got kind of
my personalities in terms of, in terms of lack of a temper. Although they do fight a lot. They did, not now they're all adults, but when they were kids, they used to, that's the one thing that
used to wind me up a bit was the constant fighting,
infighting, four boys. I mean, they were five and under, you know, when they were born. And so, and especially the youngest, Goose, we'd call him, Angus, but he was, he'd just wind them up, wind them up. And he, and
I, you say to him, listen, you'll be in here in
10 minutes time saying, "Oh, dad, he's hitting me." And I'm, and I said, "Stop winding them up." And he'd go, "No, I won't.
No, it's just a bit of fun." And then five minutes
later being, "Uh! Daddy!" So I used to have to deal with that. So one thing where it's just
dragging, there's always, at least two of them fighting
at one, any one given time, but, but no, I've never,
no, I never had that. You know, I've had issues with
them, all sorts of, you know, things in, in, in their
education and stuff like that, but not, not anything on a pitch where I've had to intervene like my dad. - How much of a challenge was it being an elite performer and being a parent at the same time, we have a lot of messages
on people saying, I want to give a hundred
percent to my family life. I want to give a hundred
percent to my career. I'm not sure how and what to do. - Well. I think that the fortunate
thing about being a footballer, or even involved in football in the way I am now, is that, as you well
know yourself, I mean, doing the similar job, is that even though you do work hard, there's a nice balance to the life. There's a lot of home time. And, and I think that that was important. You know, I used to, you
know, particularly when I, even when I started in, it's not like you'd working every day. - Yeah. - So there is a nice balance and I feel, I feel blessed to that cause
I've watched my kids grow up and spent a lot of time
with them in that process. - Can we talk about when the football career started then, and you ended up at Leicester and Jock Wallace was the man in charge. What did that period teach you? - Jock was great for me. Yeah. I mean, I, tactically it was, you know, from a bygone age and it was,
you know, long ball and then, but you know, up and at 'them stuff, but he's a hugely significant
person in my career. Not necessarily for my football, but for how to live my life
outside of football and how to give myself the best
possible chance to succeed. The first time I ever, he was, he was a terrifying individual.
He came down when I was, I think about 17, 18, and I was starting to
make a bit of progress. And the first time I ever
ever saw him was he, he, I think he got the
manager's job on a Tuesday. And then we had like a
Wednesday night reserve game at, at Filbert street, and we played the game and
it came in at half time. And then Jock came in at half time and this huge imposing figure. He walked through the
door and he was cursing, "Oh, you useless little." - And I was thinking, "woof." And he was looking at me, and he walked up to me and he picked me up behind
the scruff of the neck and put me against the
like dressing room wall. He's going, "Oh, you get running, you wee, lazy English, little shite, you." All this stuff. And I was going, I was terrified. I wouldn't it, mind you, but I scored two goals in the first half, we were two and a lot. And then, needless to say, I didn't do much in the second half. I was a gibbering wreck. And then at the end of the
game, he came in again, he went, "My office, nine
o'clock in the morning." Forgive me for the terrible,
just Scottish accent. - It's not bad. - So, so, so I thought, I thought that was it. Thought my career was gone, thought I was finished, but I got there about quarter to nine. And I, I sat outside his office, like a naughty boy waiting
to see the headmaster and eventually 15 minutes
or so later he, he said, "Laddy, come on, sit down." So I said, sat down like this. And he says, and I was
trembling trembling. And he just said, "I wanna say one thing," - You actually were trembling. - I was trembling, I was
definitely trembling. Terrified, thought, thought I was going to be shown the door. Yeah. And he said, "I just wanna say one thing. You were magnificent last night." I said, "I beg your pardon?" (trio laughs) "You were magnificent," he said, "but I just wanted to
make a wee point, Maddy, that you've always gotta
give a little bit more, let that be a lesson in life. And I thought, I thought, "my God." - Wow. - I thought, "You could
have told me last night." (trio laughs) Left me till I was, left me in the lurch. But, and then, then he became very much,
not a father figure. Cause that's, because
I had a father figure, but he became important because he, he, he would be, he'd lecture
me about how to, you know, you don't go out, don't go
out drinking after a game. And I went after tonight,
don't go, you know, you'll have your times
when it's the right moment after a Saturday game or, and he was, he said, you've got one, you've got an ability. You've got talent, you've got a chance. And I, and I lived, I, I, you know, I still went out occasionally, but I wasn't like so many of
the others that will go and, drinking pints and, and all this all night and
going out and stuff. So I think, I think that was important
because I think I, he got and helped me to
understand how to get, as a sportsman anyway, how to
get the best out of myself. - But I was gonna ask Gary, like, how does, like, a grammar school lad, going from, like, the environment, like, what you had at school
and in the cricket environment to going into that where resilience is almost expected of you, how did you learn to cope
in that environment, then? - That's a good question. But it's a difficult question
to answer because I, I don't, I don't honestly know. I mean,
you, you are you're right. And I talked about
jokingly about, you know, I hadn't reached puberty, I'm walking in the shower,
and I was genuinely, you know, because you, you don't wanna
show any kind of weakness. - [Damian] Yeah, yeah. - And stuff like that.
So, and it, you know, it was tough and I, in those days, the, it was in apprenticeship.
So you, half your time, you'd be spending either
clean dressing room. Well, cleaning players' boots. I mean, I had the job of the
first team dressing room, which was, which was good,
but it was also tough because, you know, I was, you know, some of my heroes were
there and I'm, you know, Frank Worthington was there
for a few months at some point. And, you know, Mark Wallington, the Leicester goalkeeper
and so many, you know, of the people and players that I'd kind of worshiped as well. And, and I was there
cleaning up the dressing room and it was, you know, they treat you, treated,
you know, just that. And, and, and the thing is, I
mean, now it seems ridiculous, but nowadays all the, every team, they have like a million kits, don't they? Fresh kit every day. New shiny boots. I mean in those days
they got one set of kit for the season, for training. So what we did on the Monday, I trained, they finished the training,
whatever, you know, by the sweaty or stinky or
freezing or covered in mud, or. And then we used to have to put
it on these hangers and then take them all into the drying room. And they'd just dry overnight. So you can imagine the stench
by Thursday and Friday, this, and then we had to, you know, you had to kind of wipe the
dressing room floors and, you know, mop them and clean the toilets
and do all these kind of jobs, which I did until I was 18. And then, but again, it
gave you a thing about, I really need to make it
at football cause the... - But did you ever have a
back door? Like the idea that, "oh, actually I'm gonna
give cricket a go," or... - Well, I honestly thought
if it didn't happen, I would, I would. I mean, I carried on playing. I always played right
throughout, you know, when I was football and I played
right throughout my career and I played, I played at, I played one Thursday,
which I never normally do, but I used to play for, when I was playing for, I used to live in St. John's Wood. So I used to play for a
club called Cross Arrows who play pretty much
every day in September. It's like a challenge. And for me, that was perfect. Because they'd play on a
Tuesday on Monday or whatever, so I could fit it in around
if I got a free week. And then I played on
this Thursday one day, which I wouldn't normally do when we got a game on a Saturday. But so I went and played in
the afternoon after training and, and I got a few runs and then we fielded and they said, "Come on, Gary, have a bowl." And I said, "I don't bowl. I don't wanna bowl." He said, because the game was
kind of meandering to a draw, I said, "I don't want, I don't
want to bowl. I don't bowl." They said, "Go on, have a go." And I went, "Alright." So, came in, the second
ball went like that. And my side went twang, like I pulled him. I thought, "Oh no." And I was struggling. And I went and trained the next morning. I think we were playing
Villa on the Saturday. And I came, came in and said, "I've gotta go and see
Terry," I said, "Venables." And I said, "Terry." And he went, "What's, what you done." And I said, "I've torn my side." He said, "How'd you do that?" And I thought, "Do I lie?" And I thought, "No." I said, "I did it playing cricket." He said, "You did what?" He said, "That's it no more
cricket, no more cricket." I said, "You can't." I said, "No." I said, "No more bowling, Terry." And we came, we came to a
deal on no more bowling, but so I, I always played, in fact, one of my, in fact, my, probably my favorite, you can forget all the
world cups and all that. Well, probably one of my
favorite days ever was, it was a Monday. And it was the week before
the start of the new season. And we're at a friendly at
White Heart Lane in the evening. I think it was against west
town. Not sure. And, then... - Wouldn't be much of a
friendly then, would it? - Yeah, but it was just
a warm up game, you know? So it doesn't matter.
But anyway, so on the, the night before on the Sunday, I get a phone call from a guy
called Dave English who ran the Bunburys, which was
a charity cricket club. But he also, he also organized a lot of testimonial cricket games for players. He did a lot of good; wonderful guy. And he gives me a call on a Friday. He said, "Gary," he said, "I've got," I think, I
think it was Mike Gatting's, one of his games, testimonial games. I might be wrong. He said,
"I've got, got a game tomorrow. Great game at Finchley,
just up the road from you." He said, "Can you play?" I said, "I can't, I can't play tomorrow. I've got a game," said, "I've got a game." I said, "I can't, I'd love to play." He went, "Oh, we've got so many players like this and that, he's playing this." But, and he, I said, "I, I can't." I said, "I can't, just
can't, I'd love to." He said, "What about, what
about if you back first, you can open, when
you're out, you can go." He said, "I just need a name. I need another celebrity name." I went, "Christ, go on then." So I went along, and the first over bowling
was Courtney Walsh. Right? So I'm, I'm there. And he does this. He goes off
this ridiculous long run up. And then like comically bounces it miles over my head as a joke. And then the next ball, he goes off for about a three
yard run. He's gonna ball. And I went "Courtney." I said, "would you give us
a proper over, you know, like a proper foot?" And he went, "you sure, man?" I went, "yes." So I thought, go on then. So he goes, so he goes on his normal run. He comes down. The first
boy was like, Christ. He went past the bat before
I even see it. Second one, it was similar. He was sensible. He was kind of bowling
it, just fall length. And outside the off stomp,
he didn't wanna hurt. So second ball had left. And then, then I got a couple of four
on the last ball of the over, I just thought, well,
he's pitching it though. I'll take a bit. Then I put
a front leg and I stroked it. And he went right through
the covers for four. And it was like, whoa. So it was one of those days
where I just couldn't miss. I ended up 112, not
out at lunch, sweating, (trio laughs) it was 112, not outta lunch. I was thinking, and I
said, "David, I gotta go." He said, "No, gone on. You've done me. You've
done me proud, off you go." So I went off and played
that night's good hat trick. - Yes. What a day!
- [Gary] That's the best day! - That's a high performance day! - Forget the world cup. That
was a high performance day. - You buy a lottery
ticket on the way home? - I just should have done. Yeah. It was amazing. - There is an interesting
recurring theme, though, isn't there? When we, when we look
back over all that period, whether it is your dad putting
you off the football field in front of your mates, whether it is hiding in
the shower at the end, because you were a late developer, whether it is Jock making
you shiver in his office with panic, all of that is resilience building. And I wonder whether we create
resilient enough young people these days, you know, Damian and I talk often about our frustration
with helicopter parenting, where we're all addicted to
hovering over our children, smoothing everything in front of them. And all of those are really
good lessons that the struggles and the failures and the low
points and the hard times were the, were the bits that created you. - Mm it's it's, it's
hard to know isn't it, because I'm sure other people
were treated in a certain way. And, and obviously there's,
there's a level of how far you, you want to push your kids or, or, or encourage them into doing things that, or don't encourage them or
what, cause there's, you know, there's no kind of guide book
is there for parenting when you, you just get this
little thing don't you, and off you go. So it's, it's, it's a really hard one. I don't know. And often, you know, often think about why have I, why have I been so successful? Why have, and I often think what I
genuinely think many, many times. Why have, why have I been so lucky? You know, I always think sometimes because I'm not religious. I I'm I'm, you know, I don't
mind admit I'm an atheist. I don't believe any of
that stuff. But I, I, I do wonder sometimes whether there's some
other planet out there, whether they're playing a
PlayStation game or something and we are just part of their game
and whoever I've got has been a really good player and has
given me one hell of a life. But I, you know, I do wonder
why I, you know, it's just, you know, obviously I was given a gift
to play football and I've, I, I had a good work ethic, but so many things have
happened to, you know, like I didn't get injured.
I didn't, you know, at all until the very end of my career. So I had so much good fortune. I think it's all it's always
important to understand that. - Did you feel lucky even as a young man? Did you feel that sense of fortune, or was it more in hindsight? - No, I was kind of, I, I think without, without being good at sport, life would've been very different for me because I was, you know, I, I was kind of not, I think I would've been
bullied at school. I was, they were kind of
marginally that way anyway, because I was like, you know,
this tiny geeky kid with like, you know, darkish skin. And I, you know, it's
pretty much racist abuse, although I'm not, I'm, you know, I'm, I'm as English as they come. - Really? - Yeah, you know? All
the time, all the time, even in professional football, I had that a couple of times I
wouldn't ever name any names. Yeah. So I got that kind of nonsense,
which was a bit weird, but you know, whether that, you know, whether that was part of
something that, that made me, I don't know, but other people might not
be able to handle that. But I think by, you know, how you, my greatest strength in my,
to me was not, you know, not my right foot, not my basics, it was, was my mental strength.
And I always had that. I, you know, I was never
nothing, you know, if, even if I had a shocking game or things were not going very well. - [Damian] Yeah. - It never really never really got to me. - So even if we, if we fast forward a bit into
your career in that build up to 1986, when you are in the team, but you haven't scored for a while, there's lots of media speculation
as to whether you deserve your place. How were you processing all
of that? That you're in, like, I've seen the documentaries
where it wasn't like, like, like the hotel rooms in Mexico - [Gary] Yeah. - were quite austere. You've not got the ability to follows. - Yeah. It was what we were used to. - So how did you cope with that? - It's still probably
better than, you know, not other, I mean, I know it's, I mean, football changed like dramatically and it, and it was very different
back then, but it's, it's, I think it's, it's so much how it is and
how it was that that was, you just got on with it. - But the bit about you personally is a bit that I'm interested in, of how did you cope with
that pressure that you, there was like, you'd injured your arm. There was a speculation about your role. - Yeah. Oh, for that,
that particular thing. Well, I, I thought my world
cup was, was done, you know, but they managed to find this
splint that they would've, it was right till the last minute they, they were trying different
splints on and stuff. And in the end I had this one, that was, it was fairly useless,
but it meant I could play. - [Damian] Yeah. - I mean, I was in so much
pain in 86, the whole, I, just running, just running the wind against
my hand when I was running was absolutely agony, let alone
when falling over and stuff. But I was so determined to, I mean, it's the world cup you'd
do everything, but. - But how did you block
out the noise about like, whether you were good
enough to be there or - Yeah. - the speculation around you? - Again, I have my self
doubts all the time. You know, I hear people
say, you know, you, I always knew I was gonna, and I didn't. I genuine, even in, you know,
even after the world cup, you know, when I was 16, 17
breaking through at Leicester, I used, you know, but I remember first time
I was in the reserve team, I was thinking, this'll find me out. And they getting, then I got in the first
team and I was sitting, I was sitting around all
these, my heroes and thinking, what am, what am I doing in here? And then, and then, you know, I struggled for a bit because
I was, as I said, small, and you know, and I didn't really break
into it until I was 20, 21. And then I started scoring
a lot of goals. And then, and then I got an England call up. I was at home one Monday
afternoon, just got home from, from training and the phone
rang and my mom answered it. And she said, when the
old days of a landline, remember them? So she, she answered it. And she said, "It's Gordon Mil," who was the then Leicester
managers after Jo, so I went, what I thought, oh God, what have I done? Cause I'd never had a phone
call ever from, from a manager. So I've gone to the
phone, I've gone, "Boss?" and he's gone, "Grab
yourself a toothbrush, come to the ground, pick
up your football boots, drive up to Wrexham. Bobby Robinson's been on the phone, you're in the England squad. - [Damian] Wow. - So I went my God. So, so that's what I did. I did exactly that. And I always remember driving
up in there so embarrassed. I just have this little
sponsored, like car with my name, all written over the side
of it. I remember cause you, so I drove up all the way to, to Wrexham cause we were playing
Wales and I arrived there. And I remember seeing like Tony Wock, Pete Shelton and all these, Terry Bush, all these players that I was like, well, - They would've been your heroes, right? - Well, definitely. I mean, I was 24 by the
time I got near, you know, to England. But it, I
was still, as I said, I always think I was a little
bit behind in terms of my maturity, probably because of the reasons I talked about before. But you know, I just think
God like what that anyway, I didn't get on that game.
But then I, you know, I, then I think it's a, it was about a year later that
actually made my debut and scored on my score on
my debut, full starter, I should say, I played 10
minutes in at Hamden and, and honestly I, and then I started scoring
goals with England. It just didn't seem to
make any difference, which level that I, I I'd still score. And it, I, I just, I enjoyed it. I just went out and just
played and did my job and I didn't get nerves. I don't get nerves. I don't, I don't know. I'd hear people talk about
that feeling of like nervous tension or butterflies. And I, I don't know what that feels like. - For anything? Never had it for any? - No.
- Really? - No, no. - That's amazing. - I'd get like if I was, you know, actually looking down
here from top of BT tower, if I get height you know,
that, that makes me feel sick. - [Jake] Yeah, yeah. - But that's a different thing
in terms of actually being nervous about doing
something. I never I'd. So I was, I was blessed to have that. And then, you know, and then I went to the
world cup and I scored, scored like six goals and we, I won the golden boot and then,
and then I went back and I, and then suddenly I'm
playing for Barcelona. - [Damian] Yeah. - And then in my first
classical, which is, is January. I, I scored a hat trick in it,
a home, we went three, two, and then a month later I scored four goals against Spain and burnable. And I generally thought I was blagging it. And I remember running back
to the halfway line and I, and Brian Robinson's alongside
me and I went, "Rob-o," and he went, "What?" I went, "Why am I so lucky?" And he went, "Oh, do fuck off." (trio laughs) - [Damian] But you could feel that? - But I, but that was it. And then I start and it was at
that point that I started to realize, actually, no, I'm good at this. I am genuinely good at. - And what age were you then? - That would I'd have been 26, 25, 26. - Wow, wow. - So, did you not have an
ego? You didn't barrel around? - I think we've all got
an ego just but not, no, I wasn't no big time. No, no, I don't. I hope not. I, I mean, I was confident by, you know, once I got to that stage, once I get to, once I was at Barcelona
and doing all these things, then I think there was more, more confidence came into
my game, but it was, it was, it's weird to, to try and
explain to people because I, I don't think you can get to
the very top of something by not really believing in yourself. And I did believe in myself, but I didn't see myself on the same level as the other great players
in, in world football. - But maybe that was actually
a brilliant strength. Because it, it meant you
were never comfortable. You constantly, - No, that's it. I think that, constantly challenging yourself, constantly pushing myself to do more. I was never satisfied
with anything. In fact, it was always like, oh, you probably just got away
with that. I don't know. It's weird. And it's, it's really difficult to explain
and it's probably not the greatest advice, but that's how I was. And I've always been like that since. - That game, when there was a Centennial
match at Wembley and you were on the rest of the world team and
you had people like Maradona. - Right. Yeah, Diego played, yeah. - Like all, all like
the greats of the game. What were you thinking when you were in that dressing room at that stage? Did you, had you accepted? - That, that was around this period. It was the, it was the football league Centenary and so it was the English league playing against the rest of the world. - [Damian] Yeah. - So it was unfriendly, but it was, and I was playing for
the rest of the world because I was at Barcelona at the time and not part of the football league. So, but believe you me, by the way, I wasn't the only one that
was in awe of Diego Maradona when he walked in, everyone was like
tongues were hanging out. - Really.
- I mean, he had that much of a presence
and that he was that much better than everyone
else. And I, and Pletin, he played in that game and there
was like all sorts of great players and, you know,
the, he just walked in, he walked in and he was the
only one that was paid to play in that game quite a lot. But did we care? No. And he came in and
the first thing he did, he just sat there. He got
changed into his shorts. And then he just, you know, like, you'd get a pair of socks and
you'd run and he just juggled it and he's left foot for about
two minutes, three minutes. Then he walked out and did
this thing that kicked the ball up in the air. He was just,
he was just on another level. And, and, and for me, what is unbelievable is that
you can play at the highest level of sport, like I've managed to do, and like lots of those
other players to do, but then there can be someone
that is that much better than everyone else still, that kind of genius. It's like Messi in, in the last 15 years. He's just does things that
ordinary mortals can't do. Just can't. - [Damian] Yeah. - And, and, and that was, but
that was magical, you know, that was magical. To see that. - So when did you develop these
superstitions that you have? (Gary laughs) - I had loads of those when I was young. - Yeah. So. - Do you know what I worked
out though in the end? Good. Yeah. Being superstitious, it's unlucky. (trio laughs) - But were they coping
strategies that you think maybe. - Not deliberately, but yes. I think they were, yes. I think they were it's, it's
all, all about because you've, you've, it's about confidence
and, and calmness and being, cause my, my main worry when
I, before I played the game, the only thing that I used to
worry a little bit about was how I would feel physically
once the game started. - [Jake] Right. - Because it's amazing how different, every wink somewhere you can
go out there and you feel great the day you can go on the, you can get out on the
pitch and sudden you, oh, it's everything, everything's hard work. Everything's aching. Or, you know, it's the same now when
I go in the gym three, I go in the gym three days a week, two of the days I might feel great. And then one day I feel
awful. And as I get older, now it's two days that I feel awful and one day I'll feel great. (interviewers laugh) But, and I, I think it was, it was that. And then, but the important
thing is that you, you're comfortable and confident yourself. So if I was on a bad run,
I'd do like silly things. Like if I go more than say two,
three games without a goal, I'd get a hair cut. - [Damian] Right.
- Makes no sense. - [Damian] Yeah. Except that it's amazing how
many times it worked and it probably kicks out the negative
vibes that you've got in your head. So even though
it's super, if I played, if I play a match, if I
scored in the first half, I'd keep the same shirt on. If I didn't, I'd change the shirt with
half the time. Right. There's all sorts of nonsense
in here, but it's just, again, it's like something fresh. So it just different thinking at the time. I didn't think of it as
that way, but the more I, as I reflect on it now,
because I'm just embarrassing, really all these silly
things that you do, you know, I'd drive a certain route if
it was going well and then I'd try somewhere else if it wasn't
and all these stupid things on the way to the game. - And did you keep them all? - Rio, Rio, Rio said, he, I used to, you
know, the water bottles. - [Damian] Yeah. - He's had to have 20 on
his head before he went out. (trio laughs) I mean, he's all sorts of nonsense, but. - [Damian] Ridiculous.
- If it works, yeah. - What did you keep them right
to the end of your career? Those superstitions. - Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm ashamed to say. (Gary laughs) - I'm so interested in this conversation
about it almost you talk almost like it happened to you. - Yeah. - Rather than you made this happen. - Yeah. I think there's a
there's I think there's, they're both true.
You've got to, you know, you've got to make it happen, but I'm also aware that I
was, I was given a talent. I got a talent born with
a talent that, you know, so it's not, so you can't
just go to someone, you know, some kid playing football,
who's not got that talent. And you know, say if you work hard enough, you're gonna go all the way, to the top. You, you know, if you work hard enough, you'll get to the best level
that you can possibly get. And that's, I think that's as much
as you can say to someone in that sense. - But I think there is
an important conversation to have here that even
with all that talent, you're doing yourself a disservice if you don't talk to us about the hard work
that had to go with it. - [Gary] Yeah. - So did you make a conscious decision at one point to be the
hardest worker in the room, you mentioned earlier on. - The, I don't, I don't think
I was the hardest worker in, in the room in terms of
training and stuff like that. I mean, I, I do it I'd actually, I didn't really enjoy training
and because I didn't think it ever was that helpful apart from, I, I didn't mind the working out, you know, the pre-season getting
fit, which was important, but I used to get really kind
of frustrated by how training used to be then. And I know
it's changed a lot now, you know, you play on bumpy pitches and, and all I wanted to do was
practice my craft, which was, you know, making runs, scoring goals, getting into dangerous areas. Whereas most of the
training was five aside with little goals. And I, it used to, it used to bore me, didn't stimulate me. And I used to think it
was it wasn't really what, what was it given us, especially
strikers you, you know, you, you finish it in a, in a goal that's really small
and then you, you can't, you know, what, how does that help? It might make the goals look bigger when you're actually out
there possibly. I don't know. But so I was, I never
really loved training, but I'd do it and get on with it. So, but I used to think a lot about the game. - [Damian] Right. - And I think most of my
training was off, off, off the training ground
off the pitch. And I, I loved working with Terry Venables when we were in Barcelona, we used to go to lunch
two or three times a week, which you'd never normally
do with a coach, never, but probably because he
was the English guy there. And I was with Mark Hughes
and we'd go for lunch to the beach club or sometimes, and we'd just discuss
football and movement. And, and he's the, he was the coach that was so
different because I played for lots of really good coaches
and there are loads around, but it was always, this is the way the team
plays as a structure. There's a way, this is
how you play within it. But with Terry come to me
two or three times a week, I've been thinking about this, you know, if the ball's there on
the right hand side, and if you just check maybe to the left and then spin out to the right, you think that that would work. And sometimes that goes
not really Terry, but then, and then other sides I said,
maybe, and then we'd try it. And then every now and again,
there'd be something you'd go. I actually do that.
And he was always like, and I loved that. So I think,
I think for me the hard, the work, which I didn't
find it as work was, was thinking about the game, thinking about how to
get better, thinking. But for me, training was
always a disappointment. I didn't think it was
good enough back then. It was, you know, and I wanted to do shooting and then you'd, on the
days we'd do shooting, everybody did it. So you got like 20 players, guy knocking the ball to
the coach, getting one back. You get shot every 10 minutes. But it was only into
latter stages in my career. I was confident enough to go to a coach, which was Terry, not
when I was at Barcelona. Cause do you know in Barcelona, they only had one tiny
pitch as a training ground, right next to the stadium. - One right in the stadium. - Everyone, right there, yeah. That's obviously magnificent now. But when I, you know, after
that, when I went to Topham, I, he, I used to say to him, is he all right? If I go on my own with a
goalkeeper and a bag of balls and a coat and someone to knock the ball
and he was fine, he went, "Yeah, you do that." And then I actually felt I was
getting something out of it. That's, I wanna practice
what I do on the pitch. - [Damian] Yeah. - I don't want to, I don't
wanna stand there and be part of a team working on team shape
where you don't do anything for, for an hour and a half. And it just bored me. - I wanna move the conversation on to something a bit different, you've you've said that
you felt really blessed and you can't almost believe
that this is the life that happened to you. And if you don't wanna discuss this and then I, that's absolutely fine, but there's probably the two
moments that would not make you feel like you've been blessed is the, the two separations that you've had. We have a lot of people that
listen to this and talk to us about relationships in the
workplace with partners, with their children quite often. Would you mind sharing us
in this wonderful life of abundance and being so blessed
and achieving so much what those quite difficult personal
journeys have taught you? - I don't see them as that.
I see them as two really, really successful marriages. - Right. - I had 20 years with, with
Michelle, we, as, as people do, we married young, we, and
after a long period of time, we just drifted slightly apart,
made a decision to go to, to go on our own. I think that was a really good marriage. And my second marriage with Danielle, that was purely a thing about
children and, and change. And I mean, obviously they're ups and
downs in all marriages anyway. And then breakups, you know, it's actually getting around
to doing it. The difficulty is, is, is the actual procedure of the divorce thing in this country, which is, has been absurd. And I think it's gonna be changed
where somebody has to take the blame for a failed marriage. So you, it, it, (Gary laughs) which, which was ludicrous. And I think that actually. - That's an interesting way to look at those divorces though, because. - Yeah. - We, we speak sometimes about manifestation on this podcast, which basically means if you
operate with a, a high energy, high, positive energy,
good things happen to you. And some people would've looked
at those two and said, well, I was married for 20 years and
it failed what a shame. Oh. Or I had a great relationship
that was at the beginning and it didn't go anywhere
that's but yeah, you choose, to look at the positives.
- But that's life, isn't it? - And I wonder whether that's the reason why good things have happened
to you throughout your life, because this is the power of
looking on the positive side. - Yeah. Well, I am a positive, I've always been a positive
person. I, and I think it, I'm sure it's probably helped me. - [Jake] Yeah. In many ways, no question about that. But, but that's how I
genuinely feel, you know, I'm friendly with both my
ex-wives and, and, you know, and you said, if you
could do it all again, would you I'd, yes, I wouldn't, I wouldn't change a thing. I
got four wonderful boys for, with, with Michelle and, and
a best mate with Danielle. - So can you offer us some advice on, on, on how you maintain those
friendships even while like the romantic element might, might fizzle the way that
people listening to this, even if it's not about
personal relationships, it might be about in the workplace. - [Gary] Yeah. - How they can sort of keep. - I can only go on my own
experiences and that's, you know, and I'm, I'm, I'm someone who doesn't like
confrontation for start. So I'll do everything I
can it's in my nature. - [Damian] Yeah. - Everything I can to try
and make everything okay. And that that's important. I
think the difficult thing in, in divorce is that what happens
is you, most of, you know, if, if, if it's because
someone else has been involved, then that, that, that becomes
a difficult experience. I don't know what that's like. So from my experience, it
was, it was more of, you know, just let's okay, let's do it. And then the difficult bit is dealing with the media side of it, who is it's suddenly becomes
this massively negative story, - [Damian] Right. - when it doesn't
necessarily need to be that. And the other difficult thing was, is, is when lawyers get involved because, and people who've been
through this will know exactly what I'm talking about. You know, you can go perhaps with
a hoping to have a nice, amicable split and then divorce, the divorce lawyers get in and the, the letters go out and then
you start to think, oh, she perhaps she doesn't like
me, or, you know, and then, and, and basically they're just trying to make money for themselves. - [Damian] Yeah. - You know, and that's
with the first divorce, I learned a lot from
that because, you know, I think we were exploited. And I think in my, well,
my second divorce costs, I think lawyer's fees were 500, 600 quid because we did it online. - Right. - And you can do it cause
it's amicable and that's, that would be my best advice. Try and make your split as amicable as possible
because it's so much better and it's so much less
stressful and that's important because dealing with stress
is not, not fun for anyone. - I love your positive outlook. I love that you look on the good side. - Yeah. - So how does that sit
in this modern world? Where every time someone puts up a tweet, (Jake snaps) over comes the criticism, you know, people with a hundred
percent of an opinion with only 10% of the
knowledge about either you or what you've said. And we've all been there where
we put things up and we feel almost bullied into deleting
them because it's just not worth the heat. What's your relationship
like with this modern world? - I, I doesn't really, I don't really, I don't get affected by it.
Doesn't, I don't, you know, I put my opinions up and
saying, and if people disagree, disagree, if they get abusive, then I... - How do you not get offended? - That I can't understand
because so many people, I don't really get affected
because I, I don't read it, you know, on, you know, on Twitter, you get the, there's different columns. There's the bit where you get the, I, the people that follow you or, no, the people that I follow, I
should say, so, you know, or, and blue ticket holders, or, and then there's another
column a bit with people just reply. I never look at
the left hand column ever, because why would you? - You probably have done,
to make the decision not to? - Well, I've seen it, but, and I see from other people you do. And I, I think, I mean,
went, you know, what, what things do people
have a go at me about? They'll talk about football
and stuff, but really, I, you know, everyone's got
an opinion on football. Why would anyone be, you know, why would you ever get upset by somebody disagreeing with you
on a football opinion? On things like refugees, for example? I'm hugely supportive
of humanitarian issues and I will continue to, to be so. I just can't really
comprehend how you cannot have a degree of empathy towards people having to flee their, their, their own country, which is an unimaginable
thing to have to do. I mean, you imagine if suddenly
London was completely bombed, like we seen in Ukraine
now and we all had to go, you've got, I think you've gotta think
like that a little bit. So I've always been, you know, on that side of things and
anyone who wants to have a pop at me about that, I don't think
they're worth the time of day. That's my personal opinion. So why, why would I let it affect me? And I, and I think also, don't forget if you, (Gary laughs) growing up as a footballer, you get, you get dox abuse. - Yeah. - You know, even from the,
the crowd, you know, I, I, you know, you get, if you've
got your name being sung by, you know, 10,000 fans,
when you're away from home, singing, "Gary Lineker, You're a wanker, you wanker," which I had numerous times, but I always taught that as
a compliment because if the opposition fans are singing
songs about you, you must be, they must be worried about you. So I think it's probably
something that I've got used to over the years, but I've always avoided really
reading the negative stuff. Sometimes I put tweets out just
to, you know, why, you know, try to do something
ridiculously sarcastic, and then have a look to see
if anyone actually believes I really thought that. But
no, I, I just think you've, I, again, that's, that's my mentality. But it was like, when I play football, I don't wanna see negativity. And, and people say,
well, you know, it's like, now if you're on social media
now as a football, I mean, you know, it's a different
thing, but in a similar way, when I played, if I'd scored two goals or
hat trick or something on, on the Saturday, I'd buy
every Sunday newspaper. - Would you? - Yeah. And Monday newspaper, if I hadn't scored, never buy a newspaper.
So it's a similar thing. It's, it's, it's, it's obviously different because
it's social media and it's all, all encompassing, but it's
a similar, similar mindset. - But how much is integrity
important for you? And the reason I ask that is that, that I remember like your last game in English football was a United. - Yeah. - And you got a standing
ovation, didn't you, at the end, there was stand? - That's one of the reasons
that I've always had a, a degree of affinity towards. - Yeah. I remember being with my brothers and I think part of the reason, cause I remember even at the time, when you came off the field and we sort of reflected
on why you got it. And I think it was because you'd acted throughout your career with integrity. And I think that was what
people were recognizing. - That's what I say. It's important. You know, I, I really do,
especially in modern times, you know, there's a lot
of hate out there now. I mean, we've always been
tribal creatures, but they, I think, you know, with
social media and things, it's become more so. And why can't you have a
different opinion to someone, whether whatever it is,
even if it, you know, why does it have to be so
divisive? And I think sometimes, you know, games are played with us in this country to make us more divisive. And I think that's,
that's really dangerous. And I think we're seeing it more and more. And I think that's a terrible shame. - What do you mean by that? - I mean, by stoking the
fire, like, take Brexit, for example, which I
don't talk about anymore. And I don't because it's, it's done and we're on
and we're on this course that I didn't agree with
at the time. So, you know, we'll see where it leads
us, but it was like, you are either a Brexit or a remainer and then, or a Ramona. So they automatically
becomes negative, why? I got two or three friends
of mine are remainers, two or three friends of mine
are, are, were Brexiters if you want call, use those words. - [Damian] Yeah. - Do we not get on that because of it? No, we're still best mates. Doesn't make any difference just because you have slightly different beliefs about something. But I think there's this thing where you, whether it's through the newspapers, where they're constant
front page, you know, having a go at the other
side and it's all become like really nasty. And I can't, I can't comprehend that. I just don't have that in, in, I just, it's just really weird. - Life used to be about... - You see it from right at
the top of the government. - A hundred percent, because
they stand against things now. Life used to be, what do you stand for? - [Gary] Yeah. - Now it's all about what
do you stand against? - [Gary] Yeah. - And we see it, you're totally right from
the very top of government. It's about what they, what they disagree with rather
than what they actually have, those, their own policies and what, what should we all be
doing to live in a world with less anger and less polarization, less disagreement?
- [Gary] I dunno, I don't. - Could we all be doing
a better job ourselves? - Well, we could, but I, I mean, it's really, I mean, that's the, you know, that's,
wouldn't it be lovely to, to find a way of actually doing that. I have no idea how we do that.
I just, but I just think you, I mean, I don't have a go
anyone on Twitter and stuff. I, you know, even if
I disagree with 'them, I might do a little joke
or something, you know, if, if they particularly
deserve it or something, but don't be nasty. Why, you know, why do people feel the need
to be unkind and horrible to other people? You wouldn't
do it to their face. - Yeah. - It's just, you know,
it's a social media thing. It's a lot good about social
media, you know, a lot of, lot of good. - Yeah. - You know, you see a lot
of really positive things, but that, that downside, it
just seems to have, you know, be kind of divided as more and more that 'them and us' thing, which is wrong. - Yeah. - So, beyond, back to with integrity and just representing your views and why, why shouldn't
you share those views? And like I say, the stuff about empathy, you struggle not to, are you ever tempted? Just not to have an
opinion because you know, the flack or the, the response. - Oh, if I feel strongly about something. What's the point of having
a platform that I, you know, enormous platform that I've got. If I don't try and lose it
for what I think is good. - [Damian] Yeah. - And what I think is
important, I might be wrong. Some things we're all wrong
about some things, you know, you know, I've. - So if you could boil down, what would you regard as the
important message you'd want people that go onto your platform to take away and do differently. - Yeah. Just, just really
just, it's fine to disagree. It's fine to disagree.
It's fine to debate. It's absolutely fine. - [Damian] Yeah. - But when you become abusive and nasty and unkind and personal, that's unacceptable and think to yourself, why am I doing this? Why am I, why? - [Damian] Yeah. Is it just click bait? Is it, is it just some kid in a thing?
And then you think, well, why would I care about what
he thinks anyway at this stage of his life? But I think that's, that's the downside of social
media that you, that you get. - And what about your
children? What do they, what do they think of it?
Because they must get, they're more of an age where they've probably grown up with it. - Oh, George gets blame, but George's is very, very phlegmatic. George is quite witty. And he deals with people
in his own way. Nothing, nothing gets to him. I mean, I dunno whether it's
because what he went through when he was a baby, but he, you know, he had leukemia and stuff, but he can't remember that. But I dunno whether he said a
knock on anything else doesn't seem to matter, but he's, he's,
he deals with it very well. He's the only one really
that's, they're all on Twitter, but none of them really bothering get, he, he tweets a lot and he's
got a decent following, because he's actually quite funny. And, and he's very self, you
know, he is self deprecating. So, and I think that
always works a bit of fun at your own expense sometimes, but yeah. So they're, they're okay. The others on, they're all quite
relaxed about social media. They don't, you know, if they get a bit of stick that
doesn't seem to bother them, which is they choose the right way. - But how do they handle it? When they see the dad getting stick. - They, they they're quite, you know, protective like anyone else
it's yeah. Very protective. And, but they, they know I'm, they know it doesn't bother me. - Right. - They, they, they know, you know, and sometimes they might say,
oh, they, well, they had a, you know, saying this. And then, you know, I we've had WhatsApp
group chats and stuff. Oh, did you see that blood lab? And you go, he's an idiot dad and all that, you know? So you'll get a bit of
supportive stuff like that. And I'll go, don't worry. It doesn't really matter. - That's nice. - I think part of the problem is the medium as well though, isn't it? That it's not face to face conversation. - That's exactly it. - You remember when I... - I mean, I dunno about
you, Jake, I mean, you, we all get a bit of stick
sometimes for something on, on, on Twitter, or what. - [Jake] Yeah. - But your job having not
played professional football... - On the street. When did
you ever get any stick? - Never.
- Never. - But you may do you
remember when I joined BT and I wrote that blog, - [Gary] Yeah. - about we are gonna have new, new pundits fresh from the game
and you took offense to that and you messaged me and said, you've offended people with
a lifetime in the game. - Well, yeah. And like that bothered me obviously, Because you are Gary Lineker. And I was like a young guy in his twenties trying to make his mark
in the industry. And, and that I think is a good example. If we, if we'd had that conversation,
I'd have said, oh yeah, we're gonna get some fresh guys. Cause think it's gonna be really good. There was never any offense meant, but because it was a written post. - Yeah. Because it came over as though you're having
a pop at these guys - [Jake] Correct. - that I've worked with for years. So I was, it's like anyone, if someone's, someone's critical of me or
something like that, just I, I don't care. But it's, it's,
it's also that thing isn't, it's like with your kids,
for example, when you you've, I've got four boys and
there's loads of times I've had to dish out like telling off and they, you know, you discipline them in
what, whatever way you can. And then you can tell them, but the minute someone else
outside has a go at your kids. - Yeah, yeah. - Well the protective side, "what?" "What do you mean?" And then, so you don't like it, do you, and it was only that Jake,
it was, you know, I just... - But again, that's an example
of why the world's so hard because I didn't obviously
mention your pundits, - No.
- but the interpretation. - Yeah. - And that's the issue. We now live in a world where you will interpret a tweet from someone very differently to you, differently to me. We need to find a way.
- Well, it's hard. - Having more empathy with.
- The nuance with words, - Correct. - We've all done it with
text messaging to people before even social media
came along. Haven't we? Where people have got the
wrong end of the wrong end. - I'm all about the voice note now. Cause I think if you voice
note people on WhatsApp, then your voice... - I get halfway through and then think, what was I gonna say? (trio laughs) - Before we wrap this up, I do wanna talk to you
about moving into television and the importance of
Des Lynam, who I know, as you know, is a hero of mine. - [Gary] Yeah. - And I want people to understand the importance of generosity of spirit in this world. - Yeah. He called me a month ago. - [Jake] How is he? - I hadn't seen him for quite a long time. He was, he sounded great. - What did he do for you when you first came into this industry? - He, he did a hell of a lot and obviously when I first came in it, I, I, I sat next to him as a
pundit for a couple of years, while I did a bit of
radio and tried to you, as you well know, you can't, there are no kind of facilities
to practice television, live television. If you're doing live television, it's you go straight into the deep end. And my deep end was the highlights of the 1996 euros. And on my second show was
England Scotland's highlights. And I think we like eight, eight, 9 million people watching
it or something stupid. So it was kind of in, at the
deep end, but Des was always, always really amazingly supportive. But at the same time I
would push Des and ask, asked him loads of questions
about, because I like, you know, I was, I was with the do what I
think is the doyen of, of, of sports sports presenters. And he was always incredibly helpful. And there were loads of things
I noticed that he would do. And some things that he would tell, I remember, I've said this
before, but if, you know, when you used to look at the
auto queue and stuff and, and it, it he'd say joining
us this evening, blah, blah, blah, blah, and they were joining us. And I did this all season.
And I think, I think it, I remember it was once written
on his screen as saying, "and joining me this evening,"
I heard him say to the auto, can you take "me" off
and just put "us" please. So I said to him, I've noticed
that, but you always say us. And I said, why'd you do that? And he said, well, you've
got to remember this, this, this show isn't is not me. It's about everybody involved, everybody that's watching at home. It's, it's a, it's a thing
that we do all together. So I, and ever since I've
never said, "joining me," or I may have done if it was a mistake. - [Jake] Yeah. - But I've all, you
know, joined just, just, and there were lots of, lots
of little things and you say, try, you know, he, he
said, so he presenters, he said so many. He said,
they're all very, he said, they're all terribly
good. They're very good. He said, but they don't take chances. They don't try and have a
bit of fun with something, you know, don't take it too serious, have a try and think of a
fun closing line. He said, sometimes it'll be rubbish.
Sometimes it, he said, but people will notice and
it'll be, you'll be more, it it'd be more impactful. And they, they, the things
that I took on board and I've, I've used right throughout
my television career and I, you know, try and be funny. And most of the time it's not, (trio laughs) - But delivered it in
better way than Jo Wallace. - But it doesn't matter
if you've got, you know, if you've got 3 million, 4 million, whatever is normally
watch matches today. If, if just a small percentage of
those people laugh at some, at one of your stupid jokes, then, then you've perhaps made someone smile. And that's important. - Really nice. Before we finish, we have our quick fire questions. - Do we? - Yes, we do.
- Woo-hoo. - What would you say, Gary, are your three non-negotiable behaviors that you and the people
around you need to buy into. - Three? I think kindness. I think
I, I think that's, that's, that's really, really important. Self-awareness I think it, it is. It's very important. And, and which gives you an
understanding of, I think, of, of, of, of caring for, for people
as well, which, which is, I think an important thing. And a third one, (Gary chirps) you don't wanna lecture too
much to do with these things, but I think that's, I
think the third one is, is have some fun. You have fun with life.
We only gonna get one go. - If you could go back
to one moment in time, what would it be and why? - I think. That's a good question. 1990, world cup semifinal. Probably not the penalty shootout, but probably Chris Waddle's shot. When it goes across the goal,
hits the inside of the post. See, now I know which
way it will come out. (interviewers chuckle) So I would've moved myself a
couple of yards to the side and knocked it in and went 1 to 1. And that's the only football
match in my whole career where I look back and think, "if only." I know there's the Brazil penalty thing, but that, you know, that's just a personal goal, but, but being that close to a world cup final, and to lose on a penalty shoot out, or to be a whisker of the
wrong side of the post, when it hit Chris Wattle's ball
came back out and I honestly believe we'd have won the final. Obviously I don't know that, but you know, they weren't the same Argentinian side that we'd played four years previously. And that would've meant we
were 90 minutes away from football immortality and
that's the only thing. And Bobby Robson was exactly the same. I had the conversation with him. It was the only thing that
he ever used to blink. So every, now, not every day, I don't think about it
all the time honest, but every now and again, you
just think, "Ah, if only." - What would you say is your highest performance moment and what is the time where you feel you
really let yourself down? - Highest performing moment? I think it has to be the
winning the, you know, the golden boot, probably the hat trick against Poland because it changed my life. It changed my life. It put me
right at the top, you know, before that I'd think I'd
gone five or six games without a goal with England, I expected to be dropped for that game. Cause we'd have bad
results in the first two, and we needed to win the game and I hadn't scored,
even hadn't gone close. I thought Bobby would leave
me out, but he didn't. He left Mark Hateley out
for the first time ever. I think England played two small strikers. And Beardsley played just off me and it, it worked, and I scored three
goals in the first half. And then I got two in the next game. And then one against Argentina. I've got the goal in the Argentinian game
that no one remembers. And, and then I sat with a golden
boot and life was different. I was, then I was off
to Barcelona and, and everything was different in my life. So it has to be that. - And the time where you feel
you most let yourself down? - Oh, been a few. (Gary laughs) on the football pitch. Probably that moment with my dad. (Gary laughs) - [Jake] Yeah. - When he dragged me off the pitch, but realistic, in the football sense, probably that silly penalty
against Brazil in a way. It was only friendly,
but I was just being, trying to be clever. I'll do it in style with a
little Panenka, and that came, came off wrong. - And then a non football sentence? - Non football. I'm trying to think a non football. I've done things that I've, I wish I hadn't really got
involved with the Brexit thing - Really? - to be honest, I don't
mind admit, you know, I not, not the sense of, not the sense of putting out that I was gonna vote for remain because I, I don't mind
putting out what I do, but the, the thing afterwards, and then getting a bit carried away with the fact that we lost. And I, I, I think if I had my time, again, I wouldn't have bothered with that. - What's been the biggest
sacrifice you've made in your pursuit of high performance,
and would you do it again? - Probably not as big as a sacrifice my dad made when he moved from
his dream house to go back into the city. But I think
all the sacrifices I made, I, I don't think they're that great. - Maybe.... - I mean, what a life I've
had, that's what, I mean, what a life I've had, SAC
training, art, you know, or thinking about the
game all the time or, or going into TV and media. And I mean, I, I feel I've had such an incredibly
fortunate life and such a lovely balance to my life that
I don't think that I don't consider anything that
I've done as a sacrifice. - Brilliant. And the final question, and this is kind of your last
message to the people that have sat and listened
to this conversation, which I've really loved by the way, how would you describe
your one golden rule to living a high performance life? - Yeah. Give you, give yourself
the best chance to succeed, work as hard as you possibly can, do everything that you possibly can, and just aim high. And then you'll reach, you'll
reach that level, that, that then you'll be
satisfied with yourself. And that's the most
important thing, you know, do you judge success on someone, you know, being on tele and having scored
loads of gold for it, or, but for yourself, if you know you've done as
well as you possibly can, then I think you can be satisfied. - Brilliant. It's been really nice to sit
and have this conversation. - Thank you. - We've known each other a long time and we've never spoken like
this. So it's really nice. - Well, it'd be a bit weird, wouldn't it? Just sit down. (trio laughs) - Just a bit. Much easier with the
cameras and the microphones. Thank you so much. - Absolutely.
(interviewers clap) - All right, Gary, brilliant. - Please hit subscribe.
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