Journey Home - Former Presbyterian - Marcus Grodi with Mike Carlton - 05-23-2011

good evening and welcome to the journey home my name is Marcus Grodi your host for this program this program is about journeys of faith and I guessed a simple way to put it is its journey all the way we have literally thousands of Christian traditions around the world that have a difficulty being together in the same room without kind of being at each other's throats if I want to put it that way I mean they were there at some Christian traditions that are so against one another because they believe that their position is right and the question is how do you determine which one's true and as I look at it from my own experience often it's a conversion to Jesus Christ but on my own terms I'll go so far that fits my own conscience and in some sense the journey home program is about men and women who their hearts and minds being opened by the Holy Spirit are willing to go all the way for Jesus where are you calling me Jesus it in the process discovering that Jesus intended there to be a church through which we would have fellowship with our Lord Jesus and with one another through baptism become a member of his body and so our guests on this program talk about that journey from all the different ways that the Holy Spirit touched their hearts and minds to open them up to the fullness of the faith and our guest tonight is Mike Carlton he's a former presbyterian he's here to tell his story Mike welcome to the journey home thank you it's good to have you here good to be here and I always love talking to a fellow former Presbyterian because we can talk a lot on the same issues because it is different whether you're Presbyterian methodist Pentecostal from the background that you come from what I normally do in the program I know you're familiar with the program is I push you all the way back to give us a limps of your early early spiritual journey but I do know coming in which is the reason I wore the Scottish tie is that you have Scottish ties that's right in your theological background sure were mine give us a glimpse of your background like well we grew up on Orchard Park in New York just outside Buffalo in a scottish presbyterian background religiously we went to a Presbyterian Church had a good background a good foundation of of Christ and I remember all the youth clubs and senior high fellowships and being pretty active in the church and I carried that into college and I had friends growing up that certainly were in my Presbyterian Church had a lot of friends that were Catholic and what was interesting is across the street from my church was the Church of the Holy Nativity the Catholic Church had a lot of friends over there okay I never thought at the time that I'd be across the river tiber across southwestern Boulevard but it's been quite the journey to to move toward Rome when you look back at your early Presbyterian upbringing one presbyterian church is different than the next would you say that it was the background that brought you to a relationship with Christ growing up did you have a personal prayer life and so I did but it was more of a typical almost a nominal background it wasn't I wasn't on fire for Christ as much as I maybe could have been but certainly that was part of our upbringing we weren't just see any Christians christened to Christmas and Easter we went on Sundays and went through the youth the youth club retreats were very impactful really appreciate the the minister at the time they had a young Reverend who is a role model for me and I respected him and respected the church but again had no idea until I started studying theology that there's I think it's called split pea soup there's lots of varieties of Presbyterianism at the time I wouldn't have even known that that there's disagreements even within the presbytery we just happen to go to one church it was a big Church in town and and everything was again we not realizing I think the first time when I was in high school heard the word Protestant never even heard the word Protestant and I thought why is my church associated whether were protests protesting what didn't have an answer but the first time I started wading through these vast theological waters that the Reformation was in college when I met my wife so prior to that just had a typical background and it didn't really dig into a lot of the issues of the presbytery Yellen s that again that reminds me of my own upbringing I have brought up as a Presbyterian yourself were the discussions in your Bible clubs or Sunday school or even from the sermon about Presbyterian compared to other Protestant faiths or even the Catholic faith or was really just focused on your Presbyterian tradition just focused on the tradition we didn't get into apologetics I remember Bible studies we didn't get into other Protestant denominations and we certainly did get into Catholic positions until once again later when I would be in Bible study as in a Presbyterian Church as an adult discussing these matters with even the pastor and he admitted that everything he studied in seminary and had learned in his studies were in context against Rome and it struck me that everything that they stood for had to be compared to Rome and that was in my journey as an adult as a kid though we didn't go there right so and then as I imagine leaving the family and going away to college was your faith a regular part of your life it was yeah I actually went to church in school not every Sunday but went to church a fair amount with a few other buddies it didn't matter what faith background they had we went to the Presbyterian Church in Oxford Ohio with the Miami University of Ohio I do remember though I played I played football there and I remember a few of the football players were into this very fringe evangelical Bible study we went just out of curiosity a couple times where they would save people and a little something I wasn't used to in the Presbyterian background but I became curious about just religion and generalized I became intrigued in college why people believe what they believe and I started seeing the plurality of belief within Christianity in college all before I met my wife who was a cradle Catholic which was the beginning of this journey okay is that we ought to jump on next it's up to you meeting it well following your journey because that was really the beginning that was really beginning and and the reason I've been asking the questions and I want the audience understand what you brought into that relationship so you had a good solid Presbyterian background really not comparative to other faiths just this Presbyterian which didn't involve altar calls nothing like that even often a call to conversion it was assumed that you were brought up within the system and and you had a relationship with with the Lord mm-hmm and the authority was been Scripture mm-hmm absolutely I still have the Bible my parents first gave me as a 9th grader and Confirmation you know the the NIV version of the Bible and that is something that I still carry it meant a lot to me at the time and but we didn't have a strong my parents raised us to respect everybody for their own beliefs to each his own there wasn't a strong feeling that were presbyterian they're Methodists this is a Baptist down the street these are Catholics it's the same Christ we didn't discuss it really oh and until I was in college and became curious and that there's the start all right so you meet your future wife did you know that when you first met her that she would definitely have a different faith I did yes I had some roommates and in college we'd go to a prayer breakfast before games at Miami and they were Catholic guys but it didn't we didn't discuss really differences I went with him but when I met my wife though she was she was she had some Catholic friends and they'd go to st. Mary's and Oxford and I wouldn't with him to Mass a few times and that's when I started to notice and again this first time I had ever been in Mass having grown up around Catholics and just outside Buffalo New York yeah the only thing I realize back in my background of his catholics had big families bigger than ours and they loved notre dame football that was about it we didn't get into theology but in college though we'd sit in mass with my wife and i would notice differences and you could get hard not to and that started my mind comparing and contrasting this from my background now you said you sat with your wife of clarify did you get married during college york oh no no we don't want to be shading and we go to Mass so you're dating her while she's a Catholic yeah a Presbyterian and did you bring her with you - no this is where they were going and I went with her and wanted to date her so that's where I'm going but we had we didn't get into church differences until we were married and I ain't really engaged to be married and had planned the wedding which was the first moment where I started realizing okay they want to have a Catholic wedding her family and it's going to be very different and I was okay with that but the first issue I had that I landed on was whether to have the Eucharist celebrated in the wedding Mass and that to me was the first moment where I kind of drew the line a little bit and in my mind and in my heart as to the the the differences are now more than just stained glass versus the liturgy it was really a big difference in terms of acceptance well then having a new Eucharist at the wedding I wouldn't be participating my whole family would be on one side of the aisle and so we sought out a priest that was fairly open and we didn't have the Eucharist celebrated it was a wedding it was a wedding liturgical wedding Mass without the Eucharist so it sparked the first moment that we drew up some differences within the two sides of the Christian faith and they had had Eucharist that morning at their house and that was another one okay see you still want to have the Liturgy of the Eucharist before the wedding Mass is that important to their family to have the Eucharist as part of the day when I can't participate in the Eucharist although I'd been we had the Lord's Supper growing up once a quarter you know and I didn't know why I wasn't welcomed I felt like in outside her and that was the beginning of my start of the almost anti-catholic journey yeah your even though you come from a Scottish presbyterian background which would have had a closed table my guess is that your Presbyterian background had an open it was an open table yeah yeah and I talked to the pastor's about my issues with Catholic theology relative to the Eucharist and and frankly they would almost feed my burgeoning anti-catholic position on this they'd say you know this it's the Lord's table it's not a denomination stable will come come to think that now I know Catholic as awesomes not a denomination but at the time was one choice versus another and that's that they were denying some accepting others to the Lord's table and I said we had the Lord's Supper we had our once a quarter communion Sunday I didn't understand you know and that was a that was the beginning of them you'd never studied never studied it banned at all no so you you get married and did the wedding call right I mean wedding was great absolutely yeah we the tension of this religious differences was not between my wife and I you know we've been that we're on our 20th anniversary this July and I feel very blessed known for 23 years it wasn't an issue between us in fact she was fairly accepting open and we looked at other churches we she helped me explore we went to an Episcopal Church we went to a few Baptist churches when Presbyterian we Church shopped like a lot of couples we now counsel interfaith couples that get married and they inevitably start church shopping around before they land on a church they they feel comfortable but she always wanted to stay Catholic she's always considered herself Catholic I was a searcher for the first embarrassed to say eight years of our marriage we're searching so so for the first eight years then you had taking the theological differences seriously yeah I was yeah I actually this may be the middle child in me but I was becoming defense and finding reasons to not be Catholic and it became our marriage was fine but holidays when the in-laws were in and we're going to Mass I just felt like an outsider I would excuse myself during the literature Eucharist to go outside or go to the back and pretend like I had to you know leave for a reason one reason or another because I didn't want to be sitting there or go up with the crowd I wanted to be able to be at the Lord's table and participate and didn't feel accepted I didn't understand so still at this point you didn't understand Catholic theology on the Eucharist the comparison of the two and never dawned on me to open a catechism and look at what the Catholic Church stands for I was speaking to two laps Catholics former Catholics friends I became a magnet for fallen away Catholics that were headed one issue or another angry at the church I became I started reading anti-catholic books I started looking at what the Presbyterian Church stood for and that was hard to find I had it's a very it varies I studied the Martin Luther Commission's the book of which is 20 confessions yeah that's right that's right and it's the plurality of there's not a strong position yeah when I looked at the Reformation early the the early church Protestant founders I started becoming somewhat anti-catholic I read a few books that had me convinced the church had made things up over time and was I didn't think the church was positioned properly that the Reformers really reformed the church and I started resisting the church in some ways we started going to the Presbyterian Church what was interesting is we had moved from Cincinnati to Atlanta and this is at the time when I was most anxious about the religious the church thing between us and I thought we're going to be moving now to the Bible Belt you're not going to find a Catholic down there this is the home of the Baptist and I can leave all this Catholicism behind and we join the Roswell Presbyterian Church started becoming involved went to Bible studies some men's club activities and really got involved and I thought this is our church when we baptize their first son in the Presbyterian Church and I think in some ways my wife just dealt with me because I we met a number of my wife met a number of Catholic women in the neighborhood that had moved down from the north this is in the south and within a few years of being down there being Presbyterian we she started joining she joined a rosary group with some other Catholic women I think that's when her seeds of Catholicism started coming back out and something was gonna reach ahead at some point when we were down there a lot of Catholic neighbors very Catholic and so this which church do we go to became kind of reached ahead in 2001 something else I wanted to I can't imagine that this set well with you was coming from the typical presbytery liturgical environment into these Catholic churches yeah had to be an eye-opener for you with the statues in the and the smells and the bells very different and I'm the kind of person who wants to know why and I probably everybody around me why are you kneeling why do we stand you know why we work wise why are you saying this you know why you're cross sign of the Cross yeah all of this yeah and I didn't know where's the guide that I can repeat all these things during Mass and follow along I didn't so I was a searcher but I was searching with a bias I think that a predisposition to not be Catholic I was searching with one side of the story trying to find my position to justify not being Catholic just out of a defensive position I don't think I was searching with an open mind at the time did this difficult time for you did it bring you closer to the Lord or did it get you more focused on the differences and well you know I'm saying though in a strange way I felt closer to the Lord in a very odd way you think that I'd be running from the Lord but I felt a call to be near the Lord I knew that the faith was very important to my wife she has extremely strong faith and that was gonna be part of our family and I felt fortunate that way and we didn't a marriage is she relative to our faith it was really my issue and she dealt with me but um I knew at some point something had to give to things can't be true and opposing and these aren't matters of stained glass window versus open window this is um you know organ versus a guitar this is matters of salvation how we're saved you know the Eucharist really big big issues central issues and so I knew both can't be true and that's where my my anxiety came from she was singing about 2001 you had a major awakening III did yeah we had prior about that time my wife finally we had a sit-down discussion about how we're gonna raise the kids we now we had our second baby and we've got six kids now our second was born and she really wanted to have our first go through First Communion and some of the the Catholic and she remembered her background and that really came out and she wanted our second child baptized in the Catholic Church we were going to kind of both churches we were going to a Catholic Church Presbyterian Church members of Presbyterian Church it was a little chaotic but we had kind of found two homes but she really felt a need to share that she really wanted to have as a desire the first communion was important her the sacraments and at the time I and I respected her and her wishes so I I after a little discernment let her know that I'm okay with that we can raise the family Catholic and that's fine we can raise the family at the Church of Transfiguration in Marietta Georgia but I myself will never be Catholic it's almost a moment where I became defiant we'll go through with it we'll bring the family through but let it be known that I will never be Catholic that was the beginning of Miami so that's that was the beginning of the end I think at that point I laid it out there and and I was okay I didn't have any problem with Catholics I grew up with him I had best friends were Catholics had no trouble with the church the pastor these were great people on fire for the Lord there were great people in both churches so I couldn't evaluate the church on who were friends with there's gotta be something deeper about the theology exactly when you put your your foot down then and drew the line right - I'm not going to step that's fine did you sometimes when I've encountered people that have done that spiritually they even become more resistant to learning about the Catholic Church I was and I was resistant I think I invited the Lord to come knock on my door at that point we had my my in-laws were coming in for one of the holidays and we're going to be going to Mass and and we were on vacation I went on a beach run at sunrise and was praying about this and trying to sort this out you know why do I feel this way why am i resistant and why is it important for me to hang out of my Presbyterian roots most people I talked to don't care but this is apathy it's to do whatever you want none of this really matters it mattered to me I knew it had to matter to the Lord I felt like there was boat again both sides can't be true I felt like I was searching for the truth I thought it mattered and I felt the call to look into this but on that run I felt the Holy Spirit was the first moment in my life really where I felt the Holy Spirit guiding me and at that point my heart softened a little bit and I heard not with a clear voice but I felt the feeling that you're gonna be fine you're you you you're searching for the truth however be open and an objective search for the truth with an open heart and an open mind and and so I thought the reassurance said you're gonna be okay you're in my you're you're part of my family this is this is a moment where I felt reassured in some ways bring those those sons you have to the Lord but for you be more open-minded your searching with a bias you're looking for your own conclusions with materials and that was it that would that was the message a few weeks later we had there was a flyer that Jerry Maddox friends with Scott Hahn fellow Presbyterian minister convert Latin scholar Hebrew scholar Greek scholar was coming to speak on his conversion at the library right outside our neighborhood he could walk there and so I saw the flyer I need to go see this guy this is a Presbyterian minister who is scholar dand studied and at purgatory Mary Eucharist are these biblical concepts or not so that was kind of an answer right there so I went to see Jerry Mattituck speak and and from there start tapping into with Scott Hahn stunned so that was the that was really the moment had come in answer to the prayer if you will early on so in a certain extent the thing that opened your heart was someone of your own tradition you're having the audacity to make the jump towards the Catholic Church I mean that that kind of made it more user-friendly for you that well if a Presbyterian is going to be open to this then maybe there's some truth that's true all right so when you look at these issues as you were what were your learning then from particularly Scott's books for example what were you learning then that was opening your heart yeah when I from there when I read Roma sweet home and some of the Scott Hahn material again from a Presbyterian background which really connected me to the faith tradition I had I almost embarrassingly didn't study the church before 1517 yeah I couldn't find Presbyterians in the Council of Nicaea I I didn't have any understanding of the early church fathers and that really opened my eyes to the church that was 100 percent Catholic I like telling searchers at this point that if they're agonizing over the Catholic Church they have issues just go back to your ancestry there's at some point you have a common background of the Catholic Church all of them do and I didn't realize that my family was Catholic before 1517 and or thereafter so what we lead the early church fathers and that brought me a perspective that's 2,000 years not just 500 years old and I started really researching these early church fathers to me it made sense it made rational sense for those that followed the disciples the Apostles the followers of the followers of the followers they all had writings and there was there's reams of material read the faith of the early church fathers by Jergens read some of these books that that are out there and to me it it opened my mind to the church that originated the full deposit of faith from the time of Christ through the first few hundred years before the Bible was out I didn't even realize the Bible wasn't canonized until 3 97 or whatever it was these were things that you don't study in the Presbyterian Church you you hold on to the Bible but don't study where the Bible came from you hang on to the Trinity identification of God but you don't have any respect for where the concept came from a lot of debt to the Catholic Church there my guess is like so many you assume for example the Trinity's just in the Bible yeah I assume just from the Bible and I assumed that the Presbyterian theology and the positions were biblical didn't realize the church existed before the Bible it's almost embarrassing to say now but that's something that many don't know the history that the facts are friendly separating fact from fiction and that helped me with an open mind look at the church objectively which I think the prayer to open up soften my heart receive the the truth and then with Scott Hans material I started looking deeply into some of the tenets of the faith and that dumb that brought me about a six to nine month study brought me I was heading toward Rome at that point where I was bringing my way were you discussing discussion with your wife during this process about the books you're reading and what you were discovering I was yeah when I went to see cherry mad at X and then came back at 12:30 at night almost 1 o'clock in the morning you know she knew something happened I had like I didn't want to leave I want to stay there and talk to him about all these issues I had and he just answered him one by one I came back with a turn so she noticed the at least the conversion of the mind at the time I was you know studying and she and even now she said that she remembers some that turn around so and of course that was an answer to prayers yeah that wasn't the the the end of the story but that was certainly the turn that I made it got a little interesting after that why don't we take a break down Mike and we'll pick up because what I'm interested in is in what you were learning what would you say was the really the first thing to fall you know in your life what was the what was the idea there was a Presbyterian theology or that fell or a Catholic theology that awakened for you let's we come back to the brain okay welcome back to the journey home our guest tonight is Mike Carlton and we've gotten you into that place in your journey where you're you're first getting open to the teachings of the church even though you've been married to a Catholic by that time by eight years longer almost 10 years almost 10 years yes okay and and but but it was interesting that was the witness of a really presbyterian converts had you been aware of president of protestant ministers converted to the Catholic Church up into that point and Donna made all where I looked at what Scott Hans done in his conversion and the influence he's had and the materials that start studying at that where was all this stuff this could have helped me curb the last 10 years because it was fascinating to me to learn the rest of the story that preceded what I had been studying on my own from the Reformation forward and this kind of filled in all the open places what was interesting about those times is when I really really plunged into the matter of authority and there's got to be a way to reconcile two different interpretations of the same scripture passage between two well-meaning Christians and there has to be an authority on earth through the Holy Spirit and it's really started researching Peter and the rock and the authority of the church before the Bible came out and all of this start making sense the challenge I had is is I was open for guidance and I wasn't sure if I want to be in the RCIA yet and formally convert to Catholicism but I was kind of headed that way went to a few inquiry classes still had a couple hang-ups and then the priest scandal broke out and I'll never forget when the front cover of USA Today and the this this news was just not favorable at all and on the church I wondered if that was a sign maybe to not convert because it was all over the news the the pre scandal and I had as fate would have it I was uh up in Chattanooga Tennessee on biz this but two-hour ride from Atlanta and I work in a medical device business I was up there and doing a surgery and house I was I was coming out to head home I was in scrubs and there was a 80 car pileup on the right of the berm between Tennessee and Georgia a lot of fog and five deaths it was crazy shut down the highway for six hours and so there's no way I can get home so I had to go around through Alabama yeah I told my wife I'd be home way late tonight so I had to go all the way around through northern Alabama to head back to Atlanta and I turned on NPR of all radio stations which I rarely listen to and they had a priest on the the radio being interviewed who had left the church and talked about the scandal and I thought gosh this is why now Lord I'm on my way and now you're sending me a clear sign maybe this isn't meant to be as I turn the radio off and just start heading home and I was really in a state of flux now I thought this was somewhat of a sign to to not convert when I reached northern Alabama heading down 65 I needed gas pulled over for gas and saw in the bush is a small sign was gassing up that said shrine and I didn't know I was shy knows I don't know what it was I got curious started looking I had time on my hands now it's me a long way home and I started following these white crosses and I was off the beaten path now but I got curious on what what this is and I was open I the radio is off I was in prayer I was wondering about what to do here with our family I thought about father Pat at home my boys and I started following these white crosses now I had to find out what this was so I'm literally driving across the off beaten path in northern Alabama and as he's Saint Michael's house st. ignatius house various kind of Catholic symbols I'm thinking what can be Catholic in northern Alabama this is even more Baptist in Atlanta and as we were I drove up this is a dusk his son's going down there's a big gate to me look like the Emerald Palace I'm pulling up and it looked like the pearly gates and there's a bus coming out the gates are closing I if my car in there I had to find this point had to find out went down and I saw the shrine of the Blessed Sacrament mother Angelica's the monastery and i sat there pulled up the place was closing and I got on my car and I just was just staring at this looked like the Vatican in the middle of northern Alabama said why is this here and i'ma Straub's I looked like out of place and a monk walked up who had just seen the bus off a tourist bus ASA can I can I help you and I said well I'm just curious what what is this and he's explained to me what this was I said I gave him a couple minutes of lumps I've been searching struggling with Catholicism and I can give him a few sound bites and he said my mother angelica's tour guide he said won't you come on inside I'll take you for a tour would you like to see it and I said sure so we went inside and for the next two hours and he keyed in the book store loaded me up with materials went into areas the cloistered area the nuns praying we were within an hour and a half or so he said we'd like to go pray we went into the shrine of the Blessed Sacrament liturgy of the hours I think if there was a nun's praying and Here I am praying with the nuns in front of most beautiful altar I've ever seen in this area that was never known even existed it wasn't for me needing gas at the right time and coming back through I'd have been heading the other way to Atlanta so all this kind of fell in place that one night when I was most struggling with the fruit the priests candle and I talked I so we're talking about your journey this guy a young guy from Chicago I came over his name now and he explained his journey and how he wound up there and just a great guy I said I have to ask you one thing the priest candles really bothering me and he said I understand bothers me too he said however he said don't follow Judas he said there's a followed the other eleven he said this is not the house of the Holy he said this is a hospital for sinners the church is holy but don't judge the Church of two thousand years and a billion people on a few apples don't let them spoil the whole bunch because if you need to call me any time you know here's my number here's my information and it gave me her mother and Jack his book the number of things very impressive guy and when I walked out of there I thought this is my sign yeah this is that this didn't happen by accident you know and when they say God's remaining anonymous is the sign of coincidence when I got my car I'd called my wife and said I was almost in tears I thought my father Pat all these good Catholics I knew and I felt like this is that was that I need to be part of the Catholic Church and at that point I immediately enrolled in our CIA and and really formalized and unified our our faith as a family at that point so it was a joyous moment well that's the again that's an affirmation both of the intellectual part of the journey as well as the spiritual side where the Lord actually will use in this case the planting of the shrine right there down in Europe specifically there so you could find it when you were traveling right around the accident I had mentioned earlier that the specific issues so here you are on your journey you're going through RSA was your RCA a good experience yeah yeah at that point I was so convinced from the studies I had I don't have any doubts and went through RCIA and was ready for Easter Vigil 2002 I was ready to go I didn't have any doubts at that point what about some of the specific completely non Presbyterian theologies did take a while like the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist Torrey Mary the real presence of Christ and you Chris became was my greatest issue to overcome outside the Catholic Church but once I've studied the theology that they were celebrating the Eucharist from the earliest of times when the church was underground and they built the Liturgy around the Eucharist and that felt pretty quickly I think in some ways I wanted to believe that that was Christ I didn't want to believe that was just a symbol people would have died and martyred him over crackers and grape juice it just wouldn't have happened this had to be the real presence of Christ as his legacy the bread life and I wanted to believe that and that felt pretty quickly I embraced that and really couldn't wait for Easter Vigil to be participating that sacrament the issue during RCIA that I compared to the presbyterian background really was the matter of authority for other issues Marian doctrines in purgatory there's other issues that had to flow from Authority and that was one reading Matthew 16 for example that scripture passage of this rock build my church I had to wrestle with which rock whose Church and once I overcame the matter of Authority everything else became possible Mary was a became a part of your own devotional life after a while I'm in thinking that's awfully big yeah I actually joined the rosary army after I converted you know I had a t-shirt and we had rosaries at the house with other families something I would have never done we didn't have an understanding of Mary growing up we didn't have sermons on Mary Sarah Ruth maybe asked her but not Mary we didn't disbelieve we didn't talk about her she was she wasn't part of our faith upbringing it was she had a role to play and then once Christ was on earth that was it we didn't really go there and when I my wife was doing the rosary group with other Catholic women we first moved to Atlanta I would actually listen in from around the corner and I didn't understand why they would be going through this repetitious prayers but I just didn't have that I wasn't opposed to Mary I knew she's a special person chosen by God but I didn't have a strong understanding of her role in Salvation history until becoming a Catholic I'm assuming when the brother gave you the tour of the shrine that he at least mentioned EWTN once the dwdd wtn I tried to have a place yes yeah we started watching EWTN all the time your program started reading he gave me surprised by the truth a book by Patrick Madrid read your story there was a lot of pieces to that puzzle that weren't there prior to that visit that fit in nicely and reason is not from a self emotional issue but I think to affirm that the Lord today almost more than any time in the history has been providing more opportunities for people to confirm the truth of the Catholic Church with the media and the internet yeah the same time the devil is using it also for yeah some negative publicity of sorts but but the truth is there if I'm willing to look for it that's right that's right we have an email Robert from Santa Fe as Mike's conversion to the Catholic Church given him a new appreciation for the sacrament of marriage it has yeah in fact what's interesting is I had an immediate conversion of I would say the mind and more of an academic conversion convincing myself that the truths of the Catholic Church and became Catholic and I'd say there's two conversions since becoming Catholic 2002 I I don't I didn't fully appreciate the sacrament of marriage along the way my first conversion was really as I mentioned Eucharist and some of the teachings of the church I got involved with teaching apologetics started a few ministries in the church to try to teach one of my colleagues was I I felt like that I need to explain the Catholic Church and the teachings to others that were curious and searching but a few years into being Catholic we had it we had a marriage crisis and in my marriage and we had my wife and I were in trouble and we had now number child number four out of six and we faced a very big crossroads in our marriage background and at that point I had a conversion of the heart and I realized the sacrament and this the grace is available and had a conversion more that was more of reconciliation repentance and forgiveness and these these concepts I didn't have in the first conversion but definitely had the second conversion and really we start to model our marriage now in with Christ in the center and three with humility and in reverence to just even having the sacrament we feel very blessed to have now we're on our 20th anniversary and we started a marriage program at sure called Mac marriages are covenants and it's a program to bring in speakers to try to keep marriages going I've noticed since being Catholic that there are a lot of folks struggling with their marriage in the church and out of the church and it's a it can create a huge rift within a family and really affect as I felt like we United our faith in the family in two thousand one and two we had been divided in Christ now were united in Christ were united in our family now we're really united in our marriage and for the first time we are one as a married couple and not on separate faith journeys that's been a real a real conversion moment for me got another email which is similar I think to the issue that we you're just discussing Jamie from California how as Mike's spiritual journey continued and deepened after becoming Catholic yeah I feel closer to Christ and every Mass I feel almost like the altar call that you referenced earlier I feel almost in some ways I feel such a connection to the Eucharist that I have a sense that if we miss mass I feel like the need to go I feel the need to be there and that has brought me closer to to the Lord and then as I mentioned we we I have a whole different perspective on church teaching relative to the sacraments of marriage as well so it's brought me closer to the Lord you had mentioned before the show just briefly redemptive suffering which was not a part of our Presbyterian theology but it's very much not only a part of Catholic theology but a recognized part of an ascent necessary part of our spiritual journey how is that yeah I didn't understand the concept of redemptive suffering as a studying Protestantism and now having experienced especially the second conversion you can the redemptive aspect the st. Ambrose taught the tears of joy can follow the two and flow from the tears of sorrow and so as a follower of Christ in the Catholic Church it gives me hope for all of those that are struggling with their marriage their faith pursuit of holiness our sinful nature all the things we struggle with and they're all around us it gives me a sense of hope that all things are possible you know like Philippians 4:13 with Christ who strengthens us I didn't fully embrace that as a studier and a searcher for the truth but now I understand that and and that's why I think I feel closer to Christ with with Laurie and that's where that comes from all right we have an email from Dan from Pueblo Colorado has Mike been able to share his new Catholic faith with any of his non Catholic family and friends and if so what reaction has he gone well I'll say that yeah there's two pieces to that the first is I was on fire for the faith and wanted to put it in everybody's face and that was the academic conversion and I was my brother my sister my parent everybody was a target was target practice I had all the answers now I want to throw it in everybody's face and I read Patrick Madrid's book search and rescue and it really resonated with me that there's a time in place to share the faith and there's a prayerful element that I was missing before I engage somebody who is maybe searching family friend or outside the church instead of praying what maybe what this person needs let me be an instrument to the Lord's Grace's to maybe share a few words that might make sense I thought I had all the answers when I had the second conversion of the heart as a Catholic and really I embraced humility and the redemptive suffering we just talked about it led me to believe that you know sometimes you can share the faith just with actions you know like st. Francis Todd and sometimes you can share certain things that they may want to hear when they're ready because I wasn't ready for years and then when I became ready then that was reached so time and place that the the serendipitous experience you had with the shrine mm-hmm was something you couldn't have planned mm-hmm it was something that the Holy Spirit had brought into your life and so you have to an evangelization recognize that the people were evangelizing we're hoping that the Lord is going to decide that time and that that influence whatever it might be and the Lord can use all kinds of things to open people's heart but our job is as surround with the truth which is give them information as well as love not use the truth as a cudgel they've got another email this comes from Ray from Fort Lauderdale I've been curious about the Catholic faith for years and appreciate many of Catholic teachings but I always get hung up on how the bishops and Pope believe that they speak for Christ what presumption where do they think they get this authority thank you that's an interesting one what to me it was enlightening to learn that Pope John Paul the second went to confession and these are these are people - he has a Bishop of Rome this is nothing that anybody I learned something I didn't know before that Catholics these bishops and Cardinals they're not pretentious about themselves they're following the teaching deposited by Christ from the earliest of time so speaking for Christ on behalf of Christ through the Holy Spirit is the chair of Peter given to the church in the earliest of times it's not the occupier of the chair it's the chair so these are infallible teachings that are given by the Holy Spirit it's I don't look to any one person I think what happened during the pre scandal it humbled me to realize these are perfect people and there's not perfect people outside the Catholic Church but it's a holy church it's a holy institution and we have to trust in that authority and not evaluate one particular bishop versus another because one may fall one may stay upright that's okay I don't see the church through individual now it's it's that it's the total it's the totality of the church and of course it's in Scripture as well it's an impact in the Bible yeah that that statement by Christ to him was given much much is required when I you know we think about the priests and the graces they've been given the responsibility as I've dedicated their life well there's the spiritual battle is increased in their life also the battle is there which they need to always be aware we all do every one of those needs to recognize the higher the position of bigger the target there you are and so we appreciate about them and and it could be a big fall for some if they're not continually dealing with their own sinfulness which is why you see our Holy Fathers mm-hmm going to confession regularly because they recognize their their need from now unique just at the Catholic Church so there's a lot of Protestant televangelists that have fallen over the years and right it's there is human nature no no we can't point fingers right now we live in a glass house that's right ok another email this comes from Jody from very netiquette what would Mike say to those who are in marriages where only one spouse is Catholic my husband of 15 years has no interest in religion and it's so hard having such a divided household yeah it's very common we have a ministry set up for a lot of interfaith families and I would say pray I would say pray that your spouse's journey may not be on your own time but it'll be on God's time because my wife I think is a testimony to that she didn't force the issue I wasn't ready for the shrine experience when I was two three years in its all time in place and just it's it's pray for patience and pray for humility and and pray for guidance but also acknowledge the fact that their journey may wind up surprising you down down the road but again it's hard not to work on her own clocks so have hope and we're testimony of hope to two things we overcame the Interfaith Church anxiety and then overcame a marriage crisis there's hope for those people and that's I think that's Philippians 4:13 ISM when you want to hang your hat on there mm-hmm yeah and also in that same chapter of Philippians for everything without anxiety prayer and supplication with Thanksgiving I mean that's the beer attitude I would also pray one more thing I pray that something that there'll be a sign or something to help guide the other person's faith sometimes the spouse is the worst person to share and and and that's maybe not the audience it might be difficult because you want to share the faith and that might be lead to a struggle at that point all right that's great email Victor from Maine hum can families today help ensure that they keep Christ and the church as the center of their homes yeah I think it's one of those um it needs to be woven in to throughout the day with your your kids especially and your your spouse I think it's it's not what you it's it's hard to do just on Sunday so it has to be repetition discipline and not not easy to do you know my wife's got screaming kids in the car and they're trying to say a rosary it's not easy to do but just the attempt to pray before meals pray when you wake up and keep prayer in your life and be that example for the kids and be that role model I think that'll pay off down the road planting seeds let the Holy Spirit do the work don't take on the heavy lifting yourself but I think to give up and think that it's too hard to do it wouldn't be the right course of action you don't like sometimes whenever I have a guest like you on the program I always feel like I'm I'm setting you up for a difficult time because you're being asked to you know you know was it take to be the perfect father or it'll be they have the perfect family and there you are on television and my answer is I don't know well here we are you know we're myself too we strive we're striving to be faithful to Christ and but doesn't mean we're perfect husbands and fathers or their families that got it all together we're it's like you said earlier that often the higher opportunities are given the the battle increases and our you know our goal is not to lift ourselves up as the models for everyone out there but we're in this together we're seeking to follow Christ and to be obedient to his church and to be faithful to Christ so we could stand before him on embarrassment one day well there's so many more tools in the toolbox as a Catholic that I found that are available to families and for example as I was struggling with my boys trying to they're complaining about going to Mass complaining about certain things and I feel like I'm forcing charity on them but one of the tools available is the Franciscan table and we took them down there on a Saturday it's a homeless shelter and I know there's other homeless shelters as well other faith traditions but the let the Holy Spirit take over I I couldn't with my words do anything to affect them but once we were there I brought them there it was incredible the reaction these nine and ten eleven year old boys had being in a position to serve others and listen to stories from people that are on the streets and the way the rest of the way of the way home from that experience no complains about who got what toy and yeah they were it really really had an impact on them so those are some things that I would look into and be encouraged that those are available to do those things with your family minute left Mike let's say there's a Presbyterian out there watching that right now where you were what would you like to say as a summary why they should come home to the church you know see I've often thought about that you know I don't have any magic words but I do have an experience and I think that from that experience I would just share that pray with an open mind and an open heart which is not always easy to do pray for humility and try to model Christ and his humility and I think then the the Holy Spirit will work in you and try not to be defensive over these positions because the truth is the truth and it's unwavering in the Catholic Church and that's something you need to be open to all right Mike thanks so much thank you very much for joining us on the program and sharing your your story with us and your words of real encouragement I mean that that even lifelong Catholics need to be just as you said praying with an open mind an open heart not as if they've got to rediscover what's out there but to appreciate what they have yeah the beauty of and to truly know it and to live it to experience the graces so that they can be a witness and we're not pointing fingers that's what you and I are called to do ourselves right thank you Mike thank you for joining us on this program everyone I appreciate your commitment EWTN and look forward to being with you again next week god bless you you

Channel: EWTN

Views: 16,887

Rating: 4.8391962 out of 5

Keywords: EWTN, Journey Home, Marcus Grodi, Mike Carlton, Former Presbyterian, Catholic, JHT01315

Id: 0yRcY9FQ6s0

Length: 55min 57sec (3357 seconds)

Published: Tue May 24 2011