Journey Home - 2018-10-22 - Troy Guy

[Music] good evening and welcome to the journey home I'm Marcus Grodi your host for this program once again I had this wonderful opportunity to sit with you and hear his story our guest tonight is Troy guy he's a former Baptist you know it struck me funny when we were looking at the data and the coming home network we we keep track of how many Protestant clergy have been exploring the Catholic Church or come into the church over the years and we look at what's the largest groups that come into the church and many would often say well it's the obvious suspects are the Anglican Lutheran's but the truth is the second largest group of non Catholic Christian clergy who enter into the church are of all things Baptist and you wonder why I Baptist well we're gonna find out a little bit of that tonight with Troy guy hello Troy it's great to have you great to be here I want to say right up front you've got a book evangelical Catholic a journey through the biblical historical evidence that led yet another Evangelical Protestant to the Apostolic Church so there's your book and I think it's available on ewtn religious catalogue so that's good so welcome to the program thank you great to be he's been a long time waiting for you to get here so let me shut up real quick invite you to start it's good to have you here my friend thank you very much well I I was born in East Texas and I'm from Texas originally and on my mother's side she comes from a heritage of Church of Christ and on my father's side Southern Baptists so but no Catholic anywhere in our family this is the first in our family so when you say Church of Christ in southern you got very almost fundamentalist so a really strong conservative Christian background on both sides you absolutely I mean absolutely but what was common between the two is the view on Catholics and that and that really drew the two together but our media family my mom and dad we didn't go to church much we were creased errs you know every Christmas and Easter so we we enjoyed that time together but ultimately I had a profound conversion to Christ in July of 1989 as a more less an atheist at the time I converted gave my life to Christ and how'd you become an atheist so when I think of atheist that means to me an agnostic is that you just not a part of your thinking but an atheist it's like no you had a boo opinion about God doesn't exist were you there I did have an opinion early on I did not believe God exists at all I have a very scientific mind I believe and and and looking at the evidence that I originally saw I couldn't see that but I was young at the time this all happened before I was 16 years old okay all right so yeah we became a Christian and ended up entering the Church of my grandparents which was a Southern Baptist Church you know we're in this Sun and the Bible Belt so we joined that church and for the next 25 years I served in the Baptist tradition and what what opened your heart to Jesus way back when what was it that brought you out of atheism into yeah I could invert I believe the Holy Spirit does that sure yes there was not one thing but but he made himself present in a verse that said fear not for I am with you and I began asking the question who is with me and my grandparents were able to walk me along the path of saying this is Jesus Christ and I gave my life to Him and we had that infamous altar call despite there not being an altar you know there's and gave my life to Christ and that's the born-again experience that we had that I had but the Holy Spirit used Scripture the power of Scripture absol awaken you to it plus the witness of your of your wonderful grandparents oh yes okay 25 years you're on on fire born-again Christian born again served in ministry served an outreach served the pastor drove around with our pastor and went into homes and preached the gospel to those that wouldn't come to church it spent a lot of time on the streets Street evangelism and some of the favorite people I love to talk to we're Catholics so we put them in a group just like lost people okay yeah you have a specific strategy with those those lost Catholics just ask them something where something is in the Bible you know we had have them so we believe that you know you study the Bible you you you you understand the Bible verse you memorize it but but but to us Catholics didn't even own a Bible you know they didn't have a Bible so that's we saw Catholics as completely lost people yeah I don't want to interrupt the rest of your journey but when looking from your from that perspective looking at Catholics as totally lost because they didn't have the Bible didn't know where it was did you see also was it your perspective that all those other things that Catholics are so devoted to were were either useless or distractions or unnecessary carbuncles on the life of potentially good Christians or absolutely you know we we don't need a pope right we we have our pastor we have the Holy Spirit we have the Bible why do we need a pope we the same thing with Mary you know Mary was a distraction these traditions definitely distraction salvation by works distraction and so we saw all those as polluting the pure and simple gospel of Christ and it was only when we as is Baptist we had a lot of Bible studies we had a ton of Bible studies and one of those Bible studies was on the early church and that is a dangerous thing for a Protestant look into but but the early church in particular the Nicene Creed we began looking at the Nicene Creed from a Protestant you wouldn't have said in a normal basis right right we would not have mentioned it yes so although our church did recite it once a year once a year so that little part in there you know we said it's one Holy Catholic and apostolic and we began to look at each one of those characteristics of the early church and when I compared those characteristics to my Protestant church it was completely foreign to what I was living so for example if you look at what the early Christians had said that the church was one and Jesus prayed that it would be one and in that unit he prayed for was was this like the compared to the unity of the Holy Trinity that divine unity and so here I am in the Baptist Church saying are we one or are we twenty thirty thousand and it turns out that of course were hundreds there you know worth tens of thousands of different Protestant denominations so how could I reconcile this with with what the Lord had clearly placed in my life in Scripture did you because even now as we speak I think about when when the journey home program began 20-some years ago even in that time those twenty years we've seen that the explosion of the completely independent mega churches that really have no connection with any other church unless they have a satellite branch because they're doing television broadcasts so I mean ah did you have any explanation amongst your group to explain some kind of unity that might fit that qualification amongst all these divided Baptist churches we believed in Jesus we received him in our heart we were baptized and therefore we all were united and that was the extent of the Uni if you ask if baptism was required for salvation or if you asked about infant baptism versus adult baptism then you got a difference a different scenario okay all right this is faith in Christ faith in Christ was really good with it would you have seen it United you with the Lutheran's and the Seventh day Adventists so that's when we began to split further we split further and now and that way it goes back to that happen you know the Nicene Creed those those those four marks for example the early church was Catholic you know I said you know our church is Catholic that's our Catholic we we spread the gospel to the four corners we have a universal message but could we be Catholic before 1517 in any true sense of the word historically can we go back and say well we didn't exist in fact no Protestant church existed back in there so how could I answer that same thing with being apostolic you know we were approached by a good friend of mine Johnny and he said you know in what sense is your church apostolic and I said our church is apostolic and that we preach what the Medeco Souls preached we believe what the Apostles believed and we practice what the Apostles believed so take that and his answer was well what about baptism for example and just like I just mentioned the Lutheran's baptize you know infants but your Baptist Church is saying that that that is not an acceptable practice so which one of you is following truly what the Apostles taught and so there's really no way it's it's really the Protestant dilemma that there's there's no way out of that vast diversity and disunity what about the holy holy of those four marks how did you deal with that it's a Baptist yes that is a great question we were holy in the sense that when we became born-again we became one in Christ and we were holy because he was washing us clean with his word looking back though the origin of the church according to Matthew 16:18 has never been about man Christ established the church and so therefore it's holy because of its founder and if our founder was a man going back to the 16 17 18th century how could I ever look at it and say is truly holy now there's good people and many Protestant pastors - to this day are very very good friends of mine and we remain that that United in that way today so it's in fact I'm grateful for my Protestant heritage it's taught me a love of Scripture it's taught me a love of people it's taught me a love of the gospel but in the end the fullness of truth I found in the Catholic Church yeah you were saying that you came to Christ long before you thought the Catholic Church through the witness of Scripture and the witness of your grandparents so I mean we praise God for that man we see that happening so here you are having these discussions with your your Bible study and your Baptist Church on on the Nicene Creed one holy catholic apostolic as a group of guys were you agreeing with where you were heading or was there a little debate there amongst you as you were becoming awakened this is what the beauty of the early church fathers it's settled the debate but he said you know this is what you're seeing this is what we believe who settles the dispute and so we said let's look at what the early Christians believed and it took no more than for example on the the Pope or apostolic succession it took no more than for example Irenaeus the second third century when he lists out he lists out the Apostolic successors for almost two hundred years we were able to go back and say okay now what do you do with this my Baptist brother and so we were able to just you know but but still the the the disagreement really is in the heart even if the academics are laid out it's still a heart change and that's where the Holy Spirit worked in my life cuz up until this point you wouldn't had any file folder in your head for being open to the Catholic Church right absolutely right so was it the data that awakened tutor you said the Holy Spirit did but we can you look to a time when a particular argument or a moment just wait you know this is I better change the needle on my compass a little bit and I think that is the Nicene Creed those four marks truly started to change it for me but the major truth that changed it for me was the Eucharist it was when I learned it was not just a symbol that it's more than a symbol and I learned the Jewish roots of that Eucharist that changed my life our guest is troy guy all right well let's talk about that very issue that's the thing that changed your your mind maybe it's good to review with the audience your practice of the Lord's Supper as a baptism did you see it necessary at all was a part of your life before it was necessary once every three months it certainly wasn't daily we didn't see it as a is the literal body blood soul and divinity of Jesus Christ we saw it as a symbol that that you can take optionally in fact some of the Baptist churches I attended throughout my 25 years as an anti-catholic were were optional they only happened certain occasions Christmas comes to my Easter comes to mind but that's one thing that attracted me back to the Catholic Church the Apostolic Church is that is the center of worship you know in evangelical Protestantism what I saw was entertaining sermons I saw entertaining music I saw great seating you know stadium-style seating and frankly I saw a genuine desire for people to come to Christ but at the end of the day the the early church fathers for me showed me that the Christ was never just a symbol or the Eucharist was never just a symbol but it was the body and blood of Christ and so I knew I had to change well okay now it seems to me especially we come from that background it's one thing to come to the conclusion that Wow when I read early church fathers it wasn't Baptist back then it was Catholic back then all right but in my mind there still is a jump between okay that's the way it was but that means I have to become Catholic yes it was this an instantaneous issue for you to take a time it took me almost 17 years to come home to the Catholic Church the but it was a good 17 years the the the main objections were answered for me but it was that heart that said if I do this what would my grandparents for example who were lifelong Southern Baptists say you know how would they see this what would my friends say you know what would my pastor colleagues how would they treat me but at the end of the day I had to follow the truth where it led me all right well talk about those 17 years a little more I mean were you were you during this time were you married at this time I was getting married okay married about 16 years I mean we were was she coming from did she have a Catholic background or Assemblies of God okay so God she was simile so God in fact it reminds me of a story well before her and I were married we were driving home from College Station where I was attending for graduate school at Texas A&M and we she said you know there's a guy going to give his story about why he became Catholic and I thought well this is a great opportunity to go help him see why he should not be Catholic and we we ended up Church in a stopping at a church in in The Woodlands Texas we go in there and I thought ma'am this is my opportunity to help this poor soul and no sooner did I go in there it was you you were there we're gonna give a testimony on what had happened to you you were carrying a box of books you know and I remember even opening the door for you say employee I need to pray for this guy and so here we are today but but but that's the kind of anti-catholicism that I was in that I truly saw Catholics is lost okay well how did the Holy Spirit open that door then and you're hard to for the needle that compass to get a correct courage enough or conviction enough to really make that fine what were some of the issues because you had some barriers to get over to it's one thing to see that's the way it was one Holika but there are some deep anti-catholic issues that need to get over absolutely and those issues were very difficult up til about five years ago I struggled with some of those some of the issues maybe we see today some of the really when I began looking at the church I saw a lot of dirt I saw some of the peep maybe weren't so friendly you know you move into an Rx maybe somebody doesn't approach you the way they would in a evangelical church those were barriers to because it didn't seem like home but the truth remained and and that is what brought me home there were other issues the idea that I would be you know like I said shun or maybe I would be castigated in some way but those issues haven't been very bad for me well yeah we mentioned a Nicene Creed there's a couple other things in the Nicene Creed that would seem to me that would have been different for a Baptist and a Catholic that you may have had to wrestle with during that time one of which was the communion of saints yes you know it was there any sense of communion of saints as a Baptist and then how did you make that transition to look at the Catholic view on that the communion of saints we did not believe that a dead person could hear a prayer but it doesn't take too much to extrapolate it that we as Catholics we don't see it is a live praying to a dead we see it as we are alive and they are alive we are one body of Christ United whether we're here or whether it were heaven purgatory that our physical location doesn't make us not the part of a body of Christ yeah we are one body of Christ not two not one here one there so that one was easier for me to accept yeah and and you know I mentioned John is a faithful Catholic that that helped bring me home he had mentioned one time that you know if you're if I asked to pray for you that's okay and if you pray for me that's okay but asking someone in heaven how is that off-limits you know where does that come from and so I quickly dismiss that as being a couple of the things that I would have thought have been a big hurdle get over it would be a confession to a priest yes that is one you know it's me in Scripture though confess our sins to one another and to me that wasn't hard either believe it or not is a Baptist I didn't see that because I knew that sin affects horizontally and vertically so we confess our sins to our Lord we confess our since the priest who is the ability to resolve them and so for me I found that very freeing very freeing experience yeah well you know one other obvious issue Troy would be the Our Lady because I don't think our lady was much of a part of your life as a Baptist right absolutely absolutely if he was not a part when we see through I guess or when I saw is a Protestant through typology arguments Mary the new Ark you know it compared that to the old as st. Augustine said I began to see where she is our mother she is the first disciple she's a perfect disciple and what does she say she says do as he says and that is such a model to us and should be to every Christian and so I quickly cross that hurdle as well what we saw is in Protestant is Mary worship that's what that's what we we understood but in reality there's no Catholic doctrine that says we worship Mary at all so we asked her to pray for us she's the mother of our humanity you know recently the the the reading for mass was the section from James that talked about faith and works and faith without works is dead you show me your faith no I'll show you it my works I'll show you my faith in my works I mean in some ways that's a big barrier also for many from the Baptist tradition to the to the Catholic Church is understanding the relationship between faith and our works of charity yes talk about that transition from you from your staunch Baptist background that was tougher because because any sign of work even in the mention of work was adding to something Christ had done and if you add to something Christ had done you're not relying on him for salvation but in reality if you look at what scripture tells us in James for example the our works are actually gifts from God to do unto him so it's not as though we're adding to Christ we're obeying Christ and seen in that light it's easy to overcome I know sometimes it almost I don't remember as well as I wish I did back when I was a full-fledged Calvinist but I sometimes try to remember why why we had such a resistance to works it just seems so obvious that by following the teachings of our Lord exactly you know that were to live in love in order to care for those and to show to put our homes first the whole emphasis of our faith should be giving to other people provide them and that just all we mean by work man absolutely yeah did your the Jerome family come in with you then when you we we had seven people enter the church Easter Vigil 2017 all of them from Protestant backgrounds all of them whether they're Baptists and Assemblies of God and all of them are thriving today and not looking back well it's a good question not looking back because in anybody watching this program is also aware that right now in the time whether we're in the church we've got we made the news a lot and it is all very good and we in the coming on network are often getting questions from people outside the church asking are you happy you converted how do you how do you and your family deal with scandal in the church does it make you question your journey in we have not questioned our journey in fact it's made us stronger in a weird way but we are Catholic Marcus not because of the actions of some or the way somebody's portray we are Catholic because of the real presence of Christ we are Catholic because of its apostolic nature back to Peter and therefore Christ you know we are Catholic because of our Blessed Mother now these are the reasons we are Catholic so in that vein I haven't looked back I've just continued to look forward and pray for those that maybe have been affected by things sir yeah I mean the graces we receive in baptism in the Eucharist in confession in marriage these graces are to to change us there they write amen but we need to respond to them yes you need actually in this so there are people even in high places and the church they've got all these graces but if they don't respond to them in faith then as our Lord said we can be whitewashed vessels exactly whitewashed tombs yes so before we take a break what I'd love for you to do is let's say it there's a Baptist out there watching right now wondering why did why did you do this why why should he make the same journey you've made I would challenge all my colleagues my previous Baptist brothers and sisters to look at the Nicene Creed go back and look at what the early church believed compare that to your church and pray and pray that's what I recommend all right Thank You Troy let's take a break down we'll come back in a moment with a couple more thoughts with our guest Troy [Music] [Music] [Music] welcome back to the journey home I'm Marcus Grodi your host and our guest tonight is Troy guy former Baptist I will say he's got a website called discover his church calm and he's the author of a book evangelical Catholic which we'll look at in a moment you know what especially during this time when the the media seems to be in a feeding frenzy about the Catholic Church so for those outside the church like you were who almost was a part of the American experience there's often even a subliminal anti-catholicism just in America because of our parentage so the question is how do we break that and reach out to people you're an example of one that was way over here and then Wow here and you recognized it was grace that awakened you to these things while you were studying but how what do you thinking how did we reach those folk that are way out there and really want nothing to do with the church especially when they just turn on the news and everything kind of confirms that there have third fine and dandy right where they are absolutely I think the first thing we should do is begin in prayer and I don't want I don't say that lightly it's been very instrumental and so many people's conversion already the the next thing is I would recommend looking at ourself you know patience love are we living what Christ has called us to do before we can reach them we ought to be living it as well and the other thing is be honest you know there's going to be times maybe that we don't we don't have an answer we don't know we don't know why something happened or when and say can we pray with you about that it's come up recently that I've been asked to give a lecture on why I became Catholic for example I involved 1012 Protestant pastors which continues today by the way a great dialogue and so that the question of why are you Catholic why did you convert and let's say grace gentleness humbleness are all qualities of our Christ life that that we should exhibit and go prepared you know if there's a minister that you know or somebody out there that's desiring to know why do your homework you know pick up the scripture to learn the scriptures but most of all lived them you make a good point well first of all with prayer really do I mean your conversion itself as you describe it to us was really an example of the Holy Spirit awakening your heart and mind to the data that was in front of you the same people could read that data and might not see the same conclusion you're it's not always the same so we recognize it's the work of Holy Spirit and grace and that's why we pray for someone that like Monica praying for her son yes Augusta great example you know that cousin was a pretty bright guy but his whole life stood in the way so by Monica's prayers over the years the Holy Spirit was able to break through those walls so prayer but you also talk about Scripture I'm guessing there a lot of Catholics for example that are afraid to read scripture because they figured boy if I read scripture I'll just become Protestant you know that there's the gap anything in there that argues for the Catholic Church well there's a total contradictory is that I mean it is it's in there yes that the the Bible is the book of the church it comes from the church that through every Catholic should be proud to read the Bible and don't be afraid don't be afraid to pick up the Bible and read and ask your priest questions and but going prepared I would say it would be a big key you know knowing your scriptures meditating on your scriptures and again living the Scriptures very powerful witness sometime when our words can't do at our actions can and I think that whenever it comes time to reach in our Protestant brothers and sisters in the Lord that they're going to see our life before they see our words it seems you know it seems to me and I think about a lot of the guests I've had in this program in my own background that as an evangelical I was often much more familiar with what st. Paul Road then I was with what Jesus said yes it was that true absolutely true yeah we followed Paul essentially you know if it was in Romans it was the gospel right but there's four Gospels that come before that and those Gospels testify to everything that the Catholic Church is teaching in particular the Eucharist in particular Mary you know John at the cross comes to mind so all these doctrines are found in there and so a Catholic should never be afraid to pick up that Bible and read it because the danger is as you've mentioned that when you have already your set theology a Baptist wouldn't call it tradition but you have a way of seeing Paul so you go to Paul and then you interpret whatever is in the Gospels through the light of how you then understand Romans as opposed to let's look at the Sermon on the Mount first and then with that yes as that is the foundation that's how we understand Paul you know that needs to be understood in the context of the Sermon on the Mount absolutely let's talk about your book evangelical Catholic again that the subtitle is a journey through the biblical and historical evidence of that yet another Evangelical Protestant to the Apostolic Church talk about that book I hope you get a chance to if you haven't already did to discuss it fully under kicks program but how did this book come out of your own journey and why this book started off as an answer to one my family and my friends they wanted to know where do we get the evidence of this doctrine this belief and there are many out there that have already answered many of these questions but because of the place that I was in with with an evangelical Christianity it made sense for me to pin that myself and so it's really I like to say it's a it's almost a love letter or it's a it's a way to express to them here's what you can read in your your you know your prayer time and I get that answer that you need what would you say then of all the things in in your book that your average day-by-day good Baptist evangelical Christian and their understanding of their walk with Christ what are they missing on a day-by-day following of Jesus Christ that that they need that would justify why they need to be a Catholic you know I'm saying I mean they've got their Bible they've got the prayer they they that old hymn he walks with me and he talks you know well why do they need anything else if that's all if that's what they got well that brings up a great point because as a Baptist we had history lessons but our history only went back to 1517 and we had amnesia for anything beyond that prior to that and so I would say that that many Protestant theology is out there are missing a thousand years of history that point directly to the Catholic Church but to look back in that it takes a little effort you know but but I would say they're missing history and and then when you look in history you see these things that you find in the Nicene Creed for example and you see all these beliefs that Christians throughout the ages for example Sola scriptura it was never even considered for a thousand years you know the apostolic succession was was never really questioned the eucharist Apostolic Christians have always said it's the real body of Christ in the real presence but after Martin Luther something happened and so we were we would look backwards into that time and say okay that's where our history stopped so I would argue that it's looking back into history yeah there's something about historical theology that helps a person understand the trajectory of how the Holy Spirit has been guiding the church a trajectory so that when you go through difficult times when you're thinking your theology is challenged and your wonder by going this way am I going this way that one way you can kind of know which way is right is you see how does it fit the trajectory of where we've come from we take a scripture verse and you wonder what do I take it this way my baptism do I take it this way don't take it this way well one way you can figure out which is the right way is doesn't match the trajectory of history and when you're ignorant of a thousand years of history right you don't have the trajectory so you've got no way to know where you go from 1517 on and we on the right trajectory or not have we've been caught up and as you mentioned earlier there's not just two or three trajectories from the Protestant Reformation there's dozens and dozens so which one makes sense and you can see that by the trajectory when you learn those first 50 hundred years of history absolutely you know and again going back to deciding who is right you know you can literally in our town have four churches on one corner fact many towns yeah and one will say baptism one oh say not baptism required one I'll say you know women priest the other will say do you know need any priest how do you know and this is where early Christianity comes into play all right well again our guest is Troy guy I think we have an email yeah this comes Jessica from Michigan she writes I'm a lifelong evangelical Christian and my husband recently became Catholic I've gone to Mass with him on several occasions and I know he'd love for me to convert to the hardest thing I'm struggling with is just the experience of the mass and feeling like I'm not getting fed spiritually the worship is so different than what I'm used to do you have any ideas for how I can overcome this difficult great question great question not being fed is is often a charge we hear but I would add I would ask the question what is it that you're eating and when you find out that the Eucharist is the body in the blood of Christ our Lord Jesus Christ then everything else such as create music great sermons they become secondary and you go for the Eucharist and you meet Christ the the mass is completely scriptural everything in the mass is found in Scripture and has its heritage in the early church and so I would recommend that you go back and look at the early church pick up some good books get with a solid Catholic base and learn where are the things in the mass come from and you'll find it's absolutely saturated in Scripture from beginning to end of mass I was thinking about especially that area of the mass not only so we'd have all the opinions even Luther himself recognized that his life there were already dozens of opinions on on the meaning of the Eucharist Farrell saw it as a complete symbol and count Calvin saw it as a spiritual reality and Luther had his own so again out of the Reformation we have these trajectories of theology so how do you understand which is true well you've got the trajectory of history taking a back early church fathers but even we've got the trajectory to the old testament yes understand the meaning of the mass in relationship to the mana of the wilderness I mean there's the trajectory absolutely if you look at the Jewish Passover that was one of my convincing factors you know as a Protestant I often felt like you know we we slaughter the lamb we select the sinless Lamb yes amen you know we slaughter him and then we apply the blood to our lives you know he covers us with the blood and we stop but the early Jews didn't do that they had to eat that lamb in a very literal way and that's something that we had been missing in Protestantism but the early Christians knew that and that's where the Apostolic churches you know I want to back up just a little bit I want you to talk more about that meeting with those local pastors I know my son John mark was able to go down there yes we first met you and but how'd that come about and you and I mean I mean we think about it that's not just gonna happen every day when a former Protestant evangelical becomes Catholic and still be even have friends that talk with when you come into the church but you were able to dan we should talk about how that happened it and what's happened since I like to say that that meeting happened because of relationships that didn't happen because of academic knowledge it was a one-on-one relationship with these pastors who by the way are my friends even today so it happened that they asked me to come give a lecture on why you're a Catholic so we showed up we began talking about how we're Catholic and what was their traditions that they brought with them we had Methodist we had Baptists one Presbyterian and one Catholic was sitting in with us it was a zani so 3 3 different and there was a couple of nondenominational as well to this day they are continuing to dialogue with me they're there some of them are getting closer to entering the church some of them are still working through their issues and questions and but but again I would just say it's into relationships that are important here you know I can't agree with you more on that because often when I when a person especially a clergyman his heart is open to the fullness of the church and he comes it's almost like he cuts off yes the very avenues of relationships that you need so the most important thing it's gets back to faith and works if our faith doesn't show in our life and those life's don't develop and through the relationships we've cut off the channels of witness that we were given in the first place so we can share the beauty of what we've discovered absolutely amen take another email Christopher from Santa Fe how can we effectively communicate to our Protestant brothers and sisters that the extreme lack of unity within the Christian world is an opposition to Jesus's wish how can we propose that Jesus intended something quite different and that unity with the church he established is possible well I think what I've experienced so far is that when we sit down to share how the early church saw unity what Jesus's view on unity the prayer he prayed for unity and again he lack in that to the Holy Trinity himself that divine unity so if you're a Protestant you're looking at that and you're honest with the Scriptures and you say you know as my church unity or we do does Protestantism in any way resemble unity with 30 thousand different Protestant denominations Plus and growing every day you know I was as I was driving to the airport here I saw a sign up on a billboard it said this is a new denomination but just not any denomination it's the best and I thought well what are the other twenty thousand Protestant denominations are they not the best and so it puts you in a dilemma they put you in a very real dilemma that you should struggle with and I think if we're honest with the Scriptures and when Jesus said you know he prayed for unity prayed for us he prayed for you and me in our process and brothers and sisters to be one in Christ just like the holy unity of the Trinity oh we've got another email this comes from Tina in Massachusetts Marcus thank you for a great show I'm Catholic and was raised in the church I have a few baptist friends and in our discussions we focused on what we have in common our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ I have no idea how to bring up in a conversation to encourage them to even think that there is more of Jesus in the Catholic Church without sounding preachy or superior any suggestions thank you and god bless you more prayer more prayer and I would also say go back and look at the Old Testament like we've already talked about the Jewish roots of the Eucharist how that lends itself to a literal understanding of this is my body this is my blood and when you connect it and you see that that he was talking literally and just like the early Jewish and even his disciples abandon him then you got asked why is it literal or was it symbolic and when you find out it's literal that breaks down a lot of your room your walls yeah literal is a strong word I mean it is which is what the problem they had when he said it in the first place you know there's a maze are hard words I can't go there but I know one thing I found in my own journey and I've known this from a number of folk who have interviewed is I I encountered what I called verses I never saw on my journey in other words I thought that as an evangelical I knew the Bible cover-to-cover I'd read it cover-to-cover many times I taught it through and I kind of knew it but in but what happened in that process as grace was awaking me I was running across verses that I never saw those before and did you have any verses you never saw and your journey coming into this room lots of them I was sure that Protestants put him in there after I converted I before I converted many of them that Paul you know he talks about the way we should approach the Eucharist the way that we participate in the body in the blood of Christ and all these verses I'd never seen before yeah mentioned when I go back and I think of a few verses and you had mentioned John 6 and I I've got a file cabinets full of old homily or sermons that I preached as a Presbyterian pastor and I couldn't find any on John this part of John 6 but I was wondering from a Baptist standpoint what did you do with the verse truly truly I say to you unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood you have no life in you do you remember what you would have done with that verse o I think what we'd have done was ignored it or spiritual eyes dit so this is my body becomes this represents my body doesn't you know it's not literal just like he says Eames Jesus is the door yeah well he's the door to my heart you know but the thing is when he's Jesus talk about the Eucharist he leaves no room for the symbolic only interpretation and the early church fathers support that as well in fact his disciples up and abandon him there's a many apostasy there it's just too hard for them just like it's too hard for some today I've got another email Joe from Kalispell Montana when Luther and Calvin help start the Protestant Reformation neither of them laid a revelation from God to go in the direction they had either them had a revelation from God to go in the direction they had do you think Protestants ever considered that their belief system was started by a man and not Jesus I mean how can we help them understand that the Catholic Church is the only whose founder is Jesus thank you and God bless you all the work you do this was important to me too you began asking who started my Baptist Church and we find out it's a man the 16th 17th century who started Saddleback who started you know Methodist Church you you cannot go back before the 16th century and find anybody who started the Catholic Church it goes all the way back to Christ himself that's the holy part of one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church I remember when I was in that same dilemma and I remember thinking that you know that we could list all the founders even John Knox for the Presbyterian branch of Calvinism but I also began realizing that and when I was a Protestant evangelical I would I would madman judge that the Mormons were wrong because they were started by a man or the Jehovah Witnesses were wrong because it was started by a man and I remember being confronted with it well how do I make the difference did you think about that very thing why do what we say well we Protestant groups that by the thousands of us are all right even though we don't agree with one another but yet we say but we're writer writer more writer then right these other groups yes and that is the dilemma that is a dilemma we they don't have it we have it and what we disagree on is well that's that's minor you know but the problem is the Bible doesn't tell us what's minor how do you know what's minor is baptism minor you know is salvation alone or through faith alone is that minor women pastors is that minor what is Matt what is minor so that was a dilemma for me personally as a Protestant he began looking at this again there's no table of contents that tells us what's yeah major or minor you know I think it was a Gustin that made that statement about we you know in the in the the essentials unity and non essential diversity and all things charity so but the bottom line is who who's to decide as you said what's essential or what's non-essential some things we can say hi you know whether we agree or not is that important but when it's for example today in moral issues let's bring up the pro-life issue me was that an issue at all on your journey because now with sudden issues of contraception and abortion and euthanasia or divorce I mean these are issues that many non Catholic groups don't include in their essentials exactly in prior to the Lamberth conference you know we didn't know you know as so as a Protestant abortion that was kind of on you but when you go back to the Lambeth conference for birth control and these kind of things you find out that the early Christians again and Christians back and hundreds of years ago continued to believe what we believe today in the Catholic Church and so it's a very new phenomena to say that you know we can have non birth control and open the way for ultimately death the babies you know it's interesting once again we're back with that historical trajectory yes you don't know what it was like for the first 1500 years then whatever trajectory you're on now you can say well that's it's okay until you try and connect it with what the Holy Spirit's been doing the burnout 2,000 years yes good another email John from Ohio how can we help Protestants who are not doctrinally opposed to unity but have despaired of its possibility given their experiences of fragmentation and scandal so I think Jesus's words will not come back void and we what he prayed for will come now whether we see it today or they even see it in our lifetime but I would place my my my heart on what Christ said and we pray for unity and I believe that we will see unity yeah remember that statement from Joshua when he stands before the people and he says guys it's almost like I said you got to decide but for me in my house you know so in the midst of scandal in the midst of all that whereas you and your house got to be you know that's that's the faithful faithful commitment again if they went to your discovery his church.com website when would they find their try let's say the first thing they would find is where I'll be speaking at next a lot of men's conferences some apologetics things they find out more about the book and they would find out a little bit more about Catholicism from a previous anti Catholics that point of view okay well maybe one more question we got one more time I'm specially thinking about if there is a Baptist or someone watching from evangelical background who's leaning towards the church what has helped you on your day-by-day walk with Christ now that you're a Catholic in the midst of all the stuff going on what has helped you in a day-by-day to continue growing closer to him I would say a practice that we did not have as Protestants and that is adoration adoration such an underutilized thing that's so important to our Catholic faith and community that an hour and adoration will change your life and for me as a new convert it has truly changed my life to be able to spend time with Jesus Christ alone and bear and just before him pouring my heart out to him with my questions my concerns and even praise this is what's helped me grow the most I want to make sure the audience knows what is so significant about adoration because there's there's a theology behind what's going on there yes you're not just in a room in front of a bunch of stuff yes I mean what do you what what does it take to believe for that adoration to be real so that is the real presence of Christ in the tabernacle they were able to go to in to bow down before him and interact with Jesus because he is really there in the tabernacle so that and all that comes out of the Eucharist but Troy Jesus is in my heart yes why do I need him there well you can have him in your heart and you can have him in your tongue okay you can have a more full life with Jesus Christ through the Eucharist yeah I think that's one thing that I think some evangelicals struggled with you know that I live this whole life with Christ and he's in my heart through the Holy Spirit I know he's there he's changed my life but to make that that transition from recognizing the supreme importance of them there in the Eucharist you know I used to see that - I had Christ in my heart still believe that today but if we love Christ we'll love the things that he loves and he came and established a church and we should love the church I can't imagine loving Christ and not loving his kingdom as the was the Catechism a big help for you on the journey it was it was catechism is a is an excellent summary of the faith and well documented so I was wondering because one thing we want to encourage people that are wondering about in this time when so many teachings of the church are being challenged that the blessings of the time which we live the Holy Spirit has given us this gift of the Catechism yes okay once again we got a minute ago let's say we got that Baptist sinners I'm just not convinced yet where do I go what do i do what do you want to say to you one last time I would go back to history let's go back to history before 1517 and find out what church because you see there's a dilemma there too Christ established his church in Matthew 16:18 and now you know as a Baptist I said well there wasn't a church really there because it had a pasta size but he said the gates of hell will never prevail against my church and to believe that his church disappeared for a thousand years was to call Christ's presence in question his promise in question Troy thank you very much Marcus nice to be you thank you thank you be with us and thank you for your witness and once again I'll encourage the audience to look at your book evangelical Catholic that gives more details of white became catholic and thank you for joining us on this episode of the journey home i do pray that Joy's witness is encouragement to you accomplish [Music] you

Channel: EWTN

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Id: O8qkiRDRCHw

Length: 56min 10sec (3370 seconds)

Published: Wed Oct 24 2018