Journey Home - 2017-09-11 - 20th Anniversary Special

[Music] good evening and welcome to the journey home I'm Marcus Grodi your host for this program and this is a very special edition of the journey home this program is the official 20th anniversary of the journey home program 20 years ago after Mother Angelica in her mercy and generosity invited me to consider hosting this program 20 years ago on September 1997 we had the first journey home at the time it was that first guest was Tom Howard and and 20 years later I don't know that mother and joggle expected that we would be doing this program 20 years but the reality is the holy spirit continues to open the hearts and minds of men and women lay a tea and clergy all around the world to the beauty of the Catholic Church and I have to begin this 20th anniversary program by thank you for your emails and for your prayers and your constant encouragement and we're always glad to hear that the stories that are told on this program are an encouragement to you for your faith and I hope that those of you that aren't Catholic that watch this program I hope that what comes across is charity and our love for you and our love for Jesus Christ in his church that's what this program is all about and we struggled with how do we celebrate the 20th anniversary there's so much we could do but I decided to invite three former guests to the program who I know you viewers like from past programs but there are also good friends of mine so I use this as an excuse to invite them to get together our problem is and that we've extended this program this is not an usual hour-long journey home we've extended it to 90 minutes just because I know we've got a lot to share as friends so the three guests that we have for tonight are first of all mother Miriam of the Lamb of God you might have known her as Rosalyn Moss actually rosin you were on the first year of the journey home she is got a website mother of Israel's hoped org and she'll talk to you about well her habit in a little while to my far left is father Dwight longnecker pastor of Our Lady of the Rosary Catholic Church Dwight you were on one of the first years of the program I know that you've been on a bunch of times pastor of a church now and when you first around the journey home you didn't have that habit either and between them I guess you could say it's like a ham sandwich right because al Kresta javi Maria radio dotnet is well beloved and listen to radio host and we we are here nodding our heads for how much we appreciate your work with radio so it's a wonderful privilege to have you three here and I've got some questions I want to pose to you and I'm gonna try and stay out of the way as much as I can because of our limited time but I also recognize that every time we do a journey home there might be someone there that this is their first journey home so now all three of their episodes are on EWTN on the coming home Network website but for a snippet of the story how about if we begin with you mother bear yes Marcus I am two years older as a Catholic than the coming home Network it 25 years ago 1995 that I came into the church never in a million years could I have imagined it I would grew up in a Jewish home conservative Jewish mother father everything we were taught there's two people in the world Jews and non-jews not an arrow bringing it all and we waited for the Messiah all our young lives when I was 11 my brother David was bar Mitzvahed it was my turn in the midst of the Passover Seder with our extended family to go to the door to see if the Messiah had come and Elijah would proceeded we weren't sure how far apart and I remember my little leg shaking because when Messiah came he would bring the Jewish people together from the four corners of the earth put us back in Jerusalem where we belong there would be peace on the earth he would set up his kingdom he would rule and reign when Messiah came life would make sense and so every year we waited for him and every year even when I went to the door my little 11 year old legs were shaking I said what am I gonna do with him if he's out there and the 12th floor of our apartment building that's where he was gonna come because we had a champion a cheer for Elijah and so I would turn around to the table and say he hasn't come they haven't come and we'd leave that table saying next year in Jerusalem because that's where we're gonna be women and he didn't come to share he didn't come les yeux but so I'll come next year we'll be in Jerusalem and I went to bed is that 11 year old and I said is there really a Messiah to myself will he really come and since I'm 10 I think I could say I wondered why we're on the earth why is mankind on the earth I had no idea even if Messiah came so what for past our teens past everything my brother David had become an atheist and was searching for truth I David how you gonna find truth truth a needle in a haystack but he came across an article that said we were in our early 30s that there was such a thing as Jews on the face of the earth today who believed that Jesus Christ a name we were never allowed to pronounce was in fact the Messiah that he came to earth 2,000 years ago and Jews believe this and I thought David there's all kinds of people in the world with trouble you can't be Jewish and believe in Jesus I met some of these what I thought very troubled Jews and they led me over a year and a half to the Lamb of God who took away the sins of the world in mind going through the Old Testament system to the New Testament oh it's a story I'll never ever forget because the main stumbling block is that a man can't be God though I ever stand before God and he accused me of worshipping a man a man can't be God and one utterly miraculous night I learned that I was right a man can't be God but that if God exists he could become a man he could do what he wants to do I'm not gonna tell him how to be God I became a Christian I my brother said Roz you're an evangelical I said what's that he said actually you sound like a fundamentalist I said what's I didn't know I was a Christian to follow of Christ I don't know about denominations Catholic frauds never heard nothing so I became in my first Bible study was taught by an ex-catholic who was taught by an ex-priest who taught me that the Catholic Church was indeed I'm gonna say this the of Babylon Satan's system leading millions this works righteousness leave millions astray and so for the next fourteen of my 18 evangelical protestant years I tried to save every Catholic and then in one series of events that led me to the title of an advertisement that said Presbyterian minister becomes Catholic Scott Hahn I never heard of such a thing I said he couldn't be a Christian become Kathy's impossible I listened to his tape and for hours actually and at the end of that will all the Reformation issues as Sola scriptura Sola gratia Sola fidei at the end of that Scott said this that I'll never forget it for the why still wasn't interested in becoming Catholic I wanted to save my brother he said for the one who looks into the Catholic Church 2,000 years of church history and the Church Fathers he said to that one will come a holy shock and a glorious amazement to find out that the one the church he had been fighting and trying to save people from was in fact the church Christ established 2,000 years ago an electric shock went through me at that moment and I knew that if I didn't look into the claims of the Catholic Church I'd be turning from God last thing in the world I wanted to do five years later I entered the church blessed be God forever I found that it was the fulfillment of Christianity but the most Jewish thing that you could do to be Catholic sweet Roz sweet mother Miriam right brother L you know I was raised Catholic we've got to mass weekly we have I was the oldest of five kids and we were sacrament alized and I I actually had a sense of the sacred as a little kid I mean I remember my first confession and it was really I remember to this day there was an extraordinary joy that I felt some people thought you know maybe you got that release because it was finally over no it was more rapturous than just you know and that always stayed with me in fact even more so than my first communion so I wasn't hostile to my upbringing but by you know I was by the time I got into my teen years Dow began to set in I had been president of my class athlete popular and all of a sudden I just felt like I needed to have a new identity I was a guitarist as well it was 1966-67 and the calm years yes generation that had you know extolled the virtues of wine women and song and I thought they're too tame we should do it more intensely drugs sex and rock and roll and so it was a very you know no I did not know anybody I considered spiritual at that time and I just know I thought everybody was basically doing what they wanted to do right so really those years led up to my senior year in high school where I had a series of LSD trips that were pseudo she was a very pseudo mystical and all of a sudden I realized that even though I knew I was tripping possibilities I became aware possibilities that I hadn't considered before and that maybe there was some kind of consciousness intelligence and so within a matter of weeks I had had a moral conversion I had become aware that look if you're gonna try to figure this thing out you're going to have to have a clear mind you're gonna have to live a chaste life I think my Catholic upbringing kind of kicked in a little bit there at least at the moral level and for the next five years I did basically was I lived on the street for the first year and then traveled around trying to learn about what we would call New Age thought today eventually what happens is I am to the point where I'm ready to leave New Age thinking and I have to come to grips with the fact that my New Age upbringing was completely contrary to my Catholic upbringing and the Jesus of the Bible was not the Jesus of this New Age movement that I was a part of so one Saturday I was at Michigan State University at the time and that Saturday I went out calling in the name of Jesus at that point he was we considered him just one of many ascended masters but I figured how many of them do you need you know so I did believe he rose from the dead so that's good enough for me so I'm saying Jesus I don't know what the problem is here you can't these are contradictory visions of you and and yet I don't the Bible bored me I didn't want to spend time with it and on the way to so I went down to the local occult bookstore Mayflower bookshop on Grand River in East Lansing to try to find some sort of commentary you know that would help me put this reconcile these conflicts on the way there I was tapped on the shoulder by Christian who's handing out tracts and I went across the street sat down on a bus bench in the headline on the track was do you want to know why some people don't understand the Bible and it was immediately I had this the this interior jolt that made me feel as though I was exposed I was nude at this one I was embraced and exposed at the same time and the day I usually look at em Angelica's would say that was a born-again experience because my allegiance shifted from the Jesus of New Age movement to the Jesus of the New Testament 18 years I spent with in evangelical Protestantism I didn't return to the Catholic Church and then eventually I was asked to Pastor a church I had a really ecclesiology the doctor the church was one of the things I was least interested in but when you become a pastor you have to start thinking about it over the next five years the questions forced upon me as a pastor led me to reconsider what the Catholic Church taught about itself and I figured you got only two ways to go you go Catholic or you go completely independent and if you go independent I saw what was going on in Pentecostal circles that looked like lunacy and I looked at what's going on Catholic circles and I said it's kind of stayed it's it's not exciting but the truth is it's been around for 2,000 years there's a stability there so you can get the story gets involved but eventually I came into the Catholic Church returns to the Catholic Church in 1992 my family with me know that's the year we came into I remember asking that very same question when I was wondering it's either gonna be the Catholic or I'm gonna start my own yeah and even when I thought about well I could even if I joined another denomination eventually either break away or start your own if you don't agree with I mean that was it and you know as Newman says once you become deep in history you're on the trajectory towards yeah very much father Dwight I've known you for a long time too and you've been a lot of different places in your journey that's right I was brought up in Pennsylvania in a very Bible based evangelical fundamentalist family after high school went to Bob Jones University which is not a Catholic school and our upbringing for those that don't know one of the more fundamentalist schools in America yeah that's right at very anti-catholic yeah and but while I was there a little window of grace opened up I met him an older woman who was a Catholic and very simple but developed a Catholic Benedictine oblateness or third order Benedictine she befriended me and I saw in her an authentic Christianity that I hadn't seen anywhere else lots of good evangelical Christians but she had something of a different quality the other thing was at Bob Jones um we went to a little independent Anglican Church with the delicious name the Holy Trinity Anglican Orthodox Church one of these Anglican breakaway churches we went well the way I got the English bug and became an Anglican I was baptized there and I'd been I was an English major so I was reading lots of TSLA did CS Lewis and JR tolk and all these writers and I can remember one time as an undergraduate saying all these great Christian writers well what denomination were they they were missing called Anglican and so I went to the Anglican Church and that's where I felt the call to the ministry a very clear call to the priesthood the door then opened up for me to go to Oxford and study theology which was um well for anybody who loves CS those in general Tolkien it's kind of like our mecca you know I studied theology there to prepare for the Anglican priesthood for three years and then was ordained into the Church of England in England and wanted to be an English country parson kind of like the poet George Herbert the rectory and write poems and but the Lord actually allows are sometimes unrealistic or romantic dreams to be fulfilled and I did end up as a country parson in the Church of England on the Isle of Wight pastor of two beautiful thousand-year-old churches and by this time I was married with two young children and but the Church of England was going in one direction and over the last these ten or so years to this point I was moving in a more and more Catholic direction by the time of the early 1990s my understanding of the Anglican faith was that I was I would said that I was a Catholic in the Anglican Church and my understanding of the sacraments and the priesthood was very Catholic my spirituality was Benedictine and very Catholic one summer I had hitchhiked from England to Jerusalem and stayed in Benedictine monasteries all over all long way and what I was looking for was the historic church the church which had its roots in history just like you've mentioned to be deep in history and was to become for me to become anglo-catholic and eventually however the Church of England was debating the the question of women's ordination to the priesthood and so I weighed up these two opposing sides for and against and I have to say those who were in favor had good arguments scriptural arguments and historical arguments and sociological arguments and those who were opposed had good arguments which then led me to ask well how do you make how do Christians make up their mind when they disagree and that brought me to the authority claims of the Catholic Church people said oh you became a Catholic because you didn't like women priests I said no no no but that was the catalyst which brought me to the point to say how do we make these these decisions and it seemed that the Catholic Church had a referee in the game and that referee was called the Pope and that finally there was a system in a way of examining the and examining these questions and then making finally making the call and so that brought us to the threshold of the Catholic Church and then same year as you mother in 1995 we left the Anglican ministry and came in to the Catholic Church not knowing what God would have for us next but simply responding to not only the questions of the head but also the questions of the heart I began I can remember as an Anglican priest standing at my altar in my thousand year old church celebrating the Eucharist and not believing in what I was doing and you you can't continue like that and so that brought us to the - - into the church and it's a decision the only thing I regret is that we didn't do it sooner you know as I listened to the three of you and again and even reflected in my own journey it brings it back to the issue that it's grace yeah it wasn't that the four of us were were the sharpest knives in the drawers and I'm not saying anything about you I just know me I'm not I'm a butter knife at best but but it really is Grayson and often we can look to moments we can look to tapes or books we can look to people but it still was the work of grace that awakened us I remember being for me standing in a pulpit and and looking out to my people realizing that I believe that of Jesus and this is the sole foundation for our faith the Scriptures and realizing but how do I know that what I'm teaching is true because every other Bible believing Christian that I know we can't agree on everything yeah so the issue of authority or the other thing I three of you you came from very non liturgical backgrounds yeah into deeply liturgical all three of you and maybe we'll talk some about that later but I do want to address because I know we've got a break coming up pretty soon but I want to address starting back with you mother Miriam is that we don't call you Roz anymore because the issue was three clergymen now what are you gonna do to be obedient to our Lord Jesus Christ and the call that he gave you and the gifts that he gave you and all now what do we do when we become Catholic when of course morges when I became Catholic the last thing on my mind is what I would do I was banned for my Protestant church I was outcast I was I took a job handling an apartment complex and I was a waitress and and what I was going to do but I had an amazing longing when I knew I had to look into the Catholic Church and never could imagine being one I'm not doing this and I went to dinner with my best friend and in the restaurant in California and I said to her Beth I'm leaving the handling the women's ministries everything at the CAF of the Protestant church I was with I'm gonna go to New York and I have to see if the Catholic Church is true she was shocked out of her mind and because I had been full-time as a Protestant she said to me Roz if you wouldn't be if you become a Catholic you're not gonna be a nun are you and I said to her Beth I never thought of that I think she feel well you've always been in full-time ministry what what do you what do you do what a women do it and I said I never thought of that I said I was in a sizzler restaurant salad place and I said to her bath I hadn't thought of that but could you see me walking through this restaurant in a black and white habit to the floor I said to her I said even if people think I'm a medieval wacko they have to think of God whatever they think of God they have to think of God and you know you have you have milestones and you look back I let it go then but it matched an incident when I was 20 Marcus Jewish in New York who was Jesus not Jews and non-jews but the news came out in the middle of the miniskirt error that nuns have permission to shorten their habits to knee-length I didn't even know the word habit but I knew these women in black and white garb walk through Brooklyn and I knew they were in the world for God and the habits but I thought it was a religious accommodation to the miniskirt era which it wasn't but I didn't know and it had nothing to do with me and the physical shock that went through me the moment that I knew I had to look at the Catholic Church the first time that happened is when I was 20 in Brooklyn and the news came out twice in my life 26 years apart and I law it was a my deep and immediate loss that news it had nothing to do with me I lost it wasn't mine so ever since I'm Catholic I've never had it I want to be a sign nine years with Carl Catholic answers through airports I said what a waste I'm walking through these airports every weekend of the year what a waste I could be assigned to God if I was in a habit and I had calls from all over people I didn't know God told me he wants you to be an honorable and the logging was so intense and I dismissed it I said it's me god it's me God knows me wouldn't want me and this evolved there's so many stories but it evolved and I told now Cardinal Burke Archbishop Burke my dream one day and he was artificial st. Louis and invited me there to start this and daughters of Mary Mother of Israel's hope is also a story how that came about the name of our postulate is hand mates to the family I'll mention this because I've always believed through my Jewish years through Protestant evangelical and certainly now as a Catholic that the family is God's number one designed to build this kingdom and therefore the enemy's number one target to destroy and we want to help restore God's design for the family so God is bringing this together and I couldn't be more thrilled I can pinch myself every day hi you none in the mirrors when you go by I do in Windows I'm in four percent Catholic Oklahoma and there so it's just beautiful are you Jesus is mommy they'll say and I want to ask the audience to pray for you and the sisters you're still trying to get situated right right yes yes alright then they go to mothers of Israel's Hope org and I don't think you mother of Israel's help that rock all right what utiful thanks all right thing well yeah let's talk about your continued now after you entered the church what did you do well I had I had the race when I was shortly after my conversion to Christ as an adult before I was Catholic I had a strong sense of mission that I it was a very broad sense but if I would knew I was gonna spend my life disseminating the faith in some way for ten years I ran bookstores Christian bookstores and I thought that's fine that's in a court of law eventually people asked me to do some speaking so I did that they asked me to do some radio I did that it's asking a pastor Church I did that so for me it was very consistent I had been doing this and I felt that was I had that sense of call and when I you know returned to the Catholic Church then the question was well what do you do well I was already in radio and I could the program that I was doing was more on culture issues than theological issues so there wasn't any immediate conflict between working within the Evangel Protestant world with the program that I was doing now people Detroit Free Press learned that I had become Catholic they did a feature story and that created a big problem with many of my listeners and thankfully the station management gave me two full days to just take calls yeah we got six hours total where I could just take calls from people and explain why I became Catholic or why I returned to the Catholic Church and you know after that was over it was out a commercial station so is it it was a Christian station with a commercial station and the program was financially twittle for them so they didn't have any problem with me remaining there as a Catholic none of the hosts were supposed to make their ecclesiastical affiliation an issue so yeah we just I continued doing the program people would call up they'd want to know what do you think about purgatory I'd say well let me tell you what the Catholic Church teaches about purgatory and I handle it that way and I would often my producers if they thought that people wanted to speak with me at greater length they get the phone number I would collect those names and off the air I would put together what we call bridge groups where I'd bring 15 Catholics and 15 non Catholics together to talk about the things that divide us papacy purgatory Mary Saints Eucharist and I do few talks myself I use some of Scott's material and we saw you know over a hundred people coming to the Catholic Church as a result of that kid that includes kids as well families you know so I was I felt as a Catholic I was doing what I had written called to do as a Christian in time it just began as I've deepened in my Catholic faith I began to see I could no longer avoid even on the cultural issues a distinctly Catholic perspective and so Sally and I were praying for about two years what to do we decided to move to Ann Arbor Michigan because there was a great parish there and we knew many of the people wanting to raise our kids there and after we decided to do that I got a call from Tom Monaghan the founder of Domino's beats and he said hey can we talk yeah we spent a Saturday together Tom wanna start a medium apostolate and asked me if I would do it and I said well praying for two years about it we're going to move Dan Arbor well might as well work at Ann Arbor happy eight so that so it worked in my case things came together beautifully like that I know it doesn't happen to everybody that way but that's my story I still as I hear both of you still the issue is Lord this is what I wanted to know it's Lord I want to do what you want right yeah before we hear yours we're going to take a break following the you know the rules of media we'll come back and then I'm gonna ask you to talk to about your continuing journey of service for our Lord Jesus Christ seated [Music] [Music] welcome back to this special edition of the journey home program I do want to just mention that 20th anniversary program all the old journey home programs are available online if you go to CH network.org as well as ewtn.com but it's you can access all the old journey home programs and if you're if you're linked to them through the CH network.org website you actually can do a search for give me all the math the former Methodists or who are the folk that were drawn to the Catholic Church through the Eucharist you can do all that searching at all the old journey home programs including the programs that these three were on so let's get back into the flow of things I remember when you and I first met you were no longer an Anglican priest you had become a Catholic and you're working for the st. Barnabas Society in England and what were you going to do right we left the Anglican ministry and that that had been my whole life that's well we hadn't trained for anything else and and at the time in the early to mid 1990s a lot of Anglican priests and had come into the Catholic Church and the majority of them had been ordained as Catholic priests both married and single the married ones under the pastoral provision which is a special provision from some Protestant pastors to be ordained as Catholic priests even though they're married with children so I applied as well most of my friends had had gone through the system but I got stuck and for various complicated reasons I I was not selected immediately for the Catholic priest now I think a lot of those who especially convert clergy face this huge problem what are they going to do how they're going to feed their family how they're going to pay the bills I began working part-time for a little Catholic apostolate which was a bit like coming home network helping convert clergy but the Lord was doing something else you see he I think through the graces of actually being taking that step into the Catholic Church he unlocked in me some I believe some abilities that were lying hidden in that is to be a writer and I'd always wanted to write but enough in my Anglican world I didn't have much to write about and I think it's because in that in that denomination there's a lot of fuzziness the illogicality and a lot of murkiness once I became a Catholic it's amazing suddenly I had stuff to write about there was something like my teeth into okay and so I began to write because it's something I could do and it helped also to pay the bills because I was getting paid for my articles and the books not a lot and in case anybody's rich writing for the Catholic Press think again but it was enough to help to piece things together for our family and then eventually I began to write a blog and things began to open up in a way that I I didn't go looking for a bit like you had one thing led open to it up to it to another with you with some skills and the experience that you had and then after 10 years of waiting and I can remember remember some dark times when I felt a call to the priesthood I was in it one particular time in England in in in February and if you ever been in England in February you know what meant is they happened raining sideways I was on my knees on a Saturday night in some bleak Church in a northern city in England saying Lord what do you want me to do and the voice inside said just keep doing what you're doing which is not the answer I wondered what you really want me to do just keep doing what you're doing that was to be a husband and a father and a writer and to wait on the Lord and after 10 years the door then opened up for me to come back to the United States to Greenville South Carolina to the home what he worked out in our life and so the door opened to become you know to be ordained as a Catholic priest and Marcus came to the ordination was a to rhetoric event and and that'll be a Catholic pastor but also to continue my writing and working for the Lord in that way so III think also back to the difficulties that I had in making the step to come into the Catholic faith from my evangelical than Anglican background for me the spirituality the sacraments and so forth were things which I grew into gradually they weren't so much an objection the objection for me which others might also feel was and this might sound strange to Catholics but I already felt I was Catholic I I felt in the Anglican Church I had we had liturgy we had Catholic forms of spirituality we had pilgrimages to Marian shrines we had Eucharistic Adoration we said we were already Catholic because we did things in such a Catholic way so the difficulty for me was to get over that hurdle of saying no you're not you you do things in a Catholic way you appreciate Catholic traditions you do things that are so Catholic but there's still the question of Peter there's the question of the Pope there's question of submitting to the authority of the Catholic Church which was a final step I had to take and for me it meant giving up all those things that were very good in their way and very Catholic in the way but they they were not the full ticket and so I don't know what if there was a particular performance imil to yours was I had so many Catholics telling me I was already doing a good work because I was a I was a mediating influence between even as an evangelical I was fairly Pro Catholic and so I even had a Catholic actually it's a funny story here I won't mention their names but I had two priests came out in the air within a few weeks of one another one of them while you were still even I was still in have a jelly and and one of them was known as a fairly theologically liberal fellow a nice wonderful guy but his little softer than I would be theologically so I told him what I was consisted in doing and he said you know I don't know why you would bother to do that because you're probably doing a much better work right here now I mean Catholics you wouldn't do this come be on the radio if you were Catholic and I thought yeah but I mean that's God's problem not mine you know that well I had an arch-conservative figure well-known now deceased who was on the air with me and when I told him that I was thinking of returning to the Catholic Church just dropped his head and said oh so I said where should I go he's at war I don't know I don't know where I could send you then he said how about the mil kites or the Mel cuts I mean I had no idea finally he said you would know it might be a singing group right he finally did say that a human her father John Hardin would written that marvelous catechism for the universal catechism was in Detroit at the time so I was able to go visit father John and there's other good priests in the Detroit area and I felt I was right I definitely should become Catholic but that was a barrier because it is related to other aspects of the social experience of being a Catholic I honestly couldn't figure out why the Catholic parishes I visited were so lacking in enthusiasm if I could just jump in here I think you'd probably say as well how many people get to the threshold the Catholics yes and find Catholic priests and bishops who almost say don't bother or why would you want to do that right and and one of the things which really is the troll in the end what is come is the Eucharist to say well I actually want to be in full communion with Christ Church yeah wrong that was probably my biggest father my biggest stumbling block was the Eucharist I am so opposite you felt you were Catholic already and I thought if the Catholic Church is true what God have I known all my life because it was utterly different it was a way of seeing not just doctrinal way of seeing and I've never met L such a creature as an evangelical that wasn't hostile to the Catholic faith i had only I don't even really amazing it's just amazing so people say what Mayor was Mary your biggest something black and for me no I understood the Church's teaching I couldn't believe and I put everything that I thought made sense and Calvinistic minds you don't don't trust if it makes sense logic is fallen but I would put it on the shelf and I wouldn't dare believe it like you believe the whole thing so I said no okay I understand Mary now I put I can't believe it I put it on the shelf but now I say you know as I've said many times if you're looking at the church go to Mary she said oh I have a son for you every Jewish mother once you're she saw her son she lead you straight there I was gonna ask you in that the three of you let's say that we have somebody watching that doesn't know how to Mary fits in this whole thing because with 20 years on the program probably the most common barrier for so many evangelicals is not just Mary but devotion to Mary yeah yes because they also have a place for communion of saints and a lot of issues how do we explain to those outside the church why Mary is an important part well of the equation of our faith one of the things came up one of the books I end up writing was actually a dialogue book with a former friend of mine from Bob Jones it's called marry a Catholic evangelical debate and we actually got into a discussion and one of the really crunch points in the book was when I tried to explain the Mary thing and I said - he was accusing Catholics of having a hyper devotion to Mary I said look what if we accused you of having a hyper devotion to the Bible and he said what do you mean I said well you talk about the Bible you have Bible churches your Bible studies Bible Bible Bible I said why do you love the Bible so much he says because through the Bible we know Jesus and I said with this Mary because the Mary gave us Jesus and it's through married that we know Jesus more intimately and he began to get it then that that actually it's okay to have the Bible to have Mary to say because that's leads us to Jesus and brick gives us Jesus it was Tom Howard your first guest who wrote that if Jesus came to us through Mary how dare we how are we to stand in coming to him through her you couldn't have had Jesus without Mary so why do you want to have Jesus without Mary Teresa used to say about the trees of Calcutta if you had to KN o W know Jesus can't have no Mary if there's no Jesus what you just said a no there's no Mary if you know Jesus do you know Mary well you know Mary you know Jesus the other way around she will lead you to her side and I was gonna say thrown it back to you also l that it was actually Scripture that awakened me to the devotion I should have to marry her her Fiat but also all generations will call me blessed our Lord giving Mary to John I mean all of that or say to Elizabeth who says Who am I that the mother of my lord should think of that she calls Mary the mother of god in my case the biblical passengers like that began this work on me and I said you know Catholics make too much of Mary you know we have Angelica 'ls don't make enough of her so it was a matter of balancing this now and what what finally and it Mary was my last significant doctrinal dogmatic issues I had to deal with well finally brought together was that all of the distinct Marian dogmas are actually about Jesus they're actually telling us who she is in relationship to the Son of God and what he did for her yes I mean the the Immaculate Conception speaks to the the his divinity and how he needed to be received in a vessel that was utterly without corruption the perpetual virginity is a Dogma which tells us that he is so unique in the human race that to be followed by normal I mean look I'm firstborn and firstborns were always accused of thinking their God it would seem the so distinct the the perpetual virginity of Mary preserves that distinctiveness of Jesus the bodily assumption again he raised his body where did he get that body receive it she doughnut so how appropriate it would be her body but her body would be raised as the first you know all the Reformers believed in the perpetual virginity and immaculate I think also without belaboring the point one of the things in a very practical way is non Catholic Christians will go into a Catholic Church or maybe the vasila Cathedral when they're in Europe will to go in there they see statues of Mary in the candles there and people praying the rosary and they'll think God these people worshipping Mary yeah it's an easy mistake to make but if they go into any Catholic Church any compare in the world for the main thing that happens in that church its the Eucharist and the Eucharist is the daily weekly representation of our Lord's passion death and salvation so anybody who goes into a Catholic Church for what a Catholic Church is really for which is the mass which is the Eucharist its Christ centered it's a great crucifixes and crucifix you know it's and it's not about Mary so this is another misunderstanding which is easy to understand and the people making but going to a Catholic Church or mass and you'll see that it's probably the key thing with evangelicals it's not the Reese AK rifice of Calvary but the representation of the ones for all sacrifice of Calvary that is HUGE yeah made realization to yes yeah you mentioned Mary and this year is a special year the hundredth anniversary of Fatima I mean we can talk about what you thought about apparitions before you were Catholic but you could easily with all the things that we celebrate happening through the words of Our Lady to those three wonderful little children you could summarize the five points of Fatima with prayer repentance conversion holiness and suffering five very important parts of our walk with Jesus Christ prayer repentance conversion holiness and suffering and you all know that amongst Christians we don't all agree on the meaning or the practice or the necessity of prayer of repentance conversion holiness and then suffering talk about how becoming a Catholic has awakened you to a deeper understanding of one or all those five aspects of our walk with Christ I'll just jump in I think the second one of repentance is very important you know part of our evangelical background was tinged if we were not Calvinists it was tinged with Calvinism and one of those is the doctrine of total depravity now I understand that the the more sophisticated Calvinist does not hit anybody over the head with that doctrine but as a child being brought up in that world I felt hit over the head and I felt that total depravity meant I was a I was a dirty rotten scoundrel well you were but totally and the Catholic doctrine of original sin says that we were created in God's image were good but it's deeply wounded by sin and therefore repentance is not so much only oh I'm a dirty runs got a miserable worm it's actually did a joyful thing of taking responsibility and saying yeah I'm involved here I'm a sinner and repent it's a saying I'm gonna do something about it I'm gonna take responsibility therefore repentance is a it's a very positive very healthy very mature thing to do and becoming a Catholic helped me to understand that aspect of repentance which was not just oh I'm a miserable worm but actually I'm a sinner but I'm gonna face up to it and take responsibility and do something about that and this is the other thing with Allah says have enabled me to do was to say your free will is important and you can do something about this by God's grace you know I can't remember the name of the priest sir Robert an article recently that compared Fatima to the Reformation and he points out that in fact Fatima happens on the 400th anniversary of the Reformation itself and unique things was that whereas the Protestant Reformation very much of it was about the depravity of the will nothing you can do Adam what was all about yeah what we must do God will give us blessing we must be obedient to engage with the codes grace yeah and repentance is the key which unlocks that I'm gonna say yes I'm gonna step up and say I'm gonna do something about this by God's grace and and when you go to confession therefore as a Catholic and this might be another stumbling block it is such a positive thing because you're saying right I'm gonna get up I'm gonna go to it through the door I'm gonna get down on my knees and I'm gonna do something about this that's good you know when you go to the principal's office I know I'm none of you three ever did that you don't know what's gonna happen on the other side of that but I'm going to face up to what I did wrong when I go beauty the confessional you should know when you leave you're new you know that's on the other side or international it's wonderful you know that God's mercy is there and I without hogging the time I would just say it's repentance which locks those other four things that you know good Fatima on my journey to the church my brother David again to you two in half years before I was Catholic showed me in my first Catholic film the miracle of Fatima and I watched this the fifth point mark is suffering is for me is is what has struck me hugely as our lady told Lucia she appeared to those three children she was going to take Jacinto and Francesco Francesco home and Lucia the oldest said please lay a dear lady I'll suffer for them and be glad but don't leave me here alone don't take that and our lady said my Immaculate Heart will be your refuge the path that leads you to God at that moment still my evangelical not trusting Catholic heart I left the room I went into the bathroom I closed the door and locked myself in and I sobbed I said what are you talking i've known Jesus for sixteen years I've gone to Jesus if I could become Catholic I have to go backwards and come through Mary now what my brother did was stop the film till I got back so I wouldn't miss anything the redemptive suffering who would have ever thought now I'm not a masochist I don't look for suffering God has been gracious to give me lots of opportunities but redemptive suffering to me is one of the most beautiful issues in the world and that suffering comes that our suffering could be put to work worth something for the salvation of souls and it connects with the thing that brought me into the church during the mass the priest would say to the congregation parishioners invite them to join their sufferings with the suffering of Christ I'm the crowd was in Catholic yet and I said wait a minute wait wait wait wait wait you Catholics don't believe his sacrifice was sufficient if I add to it if I join I'm addict and if I'm adding aren't I saying thanks a lot Lord Jesus for dying for me you didn't do enough I have to finish the job get that and I thought back it's too much of a story but I said to a priest once do you add to the sacrifice of Christ and he said we do and he said yes his sacrifice was sufficient no he doesn't need it but yes we add to it and by God's funny grace I thought of a mother in the kitchen baking a chocolate cake and the mother has all the ingredients flour stuffing she's sufficient for the task but her little three-year-old daughter comes in mommy can I help you what does love do love doesn't say night got it together said yes love receives the little one throws an egg flower did the mother needed no was the mother sufficient of course was it a true addition it was and I thought at that point I yelled crucify him with that crowd we all did he died for our sins and if I could love him back then at Calvary as he's brought me to love him now if I could go back 2,000 years and be at the foot of the cross as he was giving his all for me if I could crawl up on the cross with Calvary with him and give my all for him I would want to do that but I couldn't I wasn't there and I realized that that's the mass that one sacrifice brought through time down on the altar of every Catholic Church is Calvary made present and I who once yelled crucify him can join my sufferings I can crawl up on the cross with Jesus made present and give myself through him with him and in him to the Father and I thought what manner of love is that we could not have invented it and every time now whatever the suffering is could be a cold could be the death of could be the who knows what I have a gift to give Jesus I have a gift I said Jesus I take this for the cross for the salvation of someone I love salvation of someone who hasn't heard the gospel whatever it is the healing of someone it's the most the greatest gift and we're familiar with the verse that maybe we ignored when we were Protestants and Paul says I rejoice in my sufferings and complete what is lack the sufferings have caused what for the sake of the church there's a public purse for non Catholic Christians to deal with suffering was the same topics of the spy that you mentioned probably had a Catholic understanding of suffering have really changed my changed my even approach to people so when I returned to the Catholic Church the primary reason was my distress over disunity because that broken all the fracturing of Christianity discredits the gospel and Jesus gave the world the right to judge whether the father sent the son by the degree of observable love and unity that they witness on the part of his disciples so I eventually concluded that you there's no way that Avondale Protestantism is restoring unity the leaders that I'd interviewed and spent time with good guys but they they're doing their own thing they had their own Kingdom they were developing so I saw the Catholic Church as the the only Christian community that took Jesus's words about unity with the utmost seriousness and when I lost my leg necrotizing fasciitis flesh-eating bacteria got to me I was given the grace at that time to say well this is one reason I became a Catholic so that experiences like this could bind me to my brothers and sisters around the globe I'm very incredible and and we suffer with one another on behalf of one another because of Jesus and so father John Ricardo was with me just before I went in to the operating room and that we talked about this very thing in that he said you know I said I he said well what's your major concern here alone my major concern is that that I suffer well I do this right I was comfortable even if I was to die I was aware that I had had a my life had purpose and meaning and I my wife Sally and I had a sense of mission from the time we fell in love my kids were doing well I didn't want to think too much about leaving them but but I I knew that you don't get many moments like this where you're straddling life and death and you want to do it well you don't want to waste that suffering yeah and so father John's exhortation coupled with the grace I don't normally think this way so when you know I want out of pain I've learned that one my teens you know I left Woodstock because I had a toothache person at Woodstock they couldn't find painkillers so I'm just saying there was a special grace given and I don't know how to account for why those things happen when they happen but I was thinking when we look at the stories of martyrs and we wonder could I ever do that but the celebration of a martyr is recognizing the grace that God gave that person yes for their witness yes they survives to this day let's take a pause there we follow usual breaking we back just a moment [Music] [Music] welcome back for this final segment of the special edition of the journey home and our three guests our mother Miriam of the Lamb of God al Kresta and father Dwight longnecker quickly a couple other questions I want to make sure we get in number one how is being a Catholic help us face this crazy world today in every every every way and every moment I breathe our charism is hope and I say if I ever write a book I'm gonna give away the title a hanger for God that's what my body's got nothing to do with me it to bring hope in the world to say God still exists even if you're angry at God you have to think about the fact you're angry at God if you're an atheist have to think about the God who doesn't exist who loves you anyway I think of Esther the Old Testament for such a time as this that we have the truth that's not arrogance we have the truth and God help us if we keep it to ourselves the worst things get all we have to do I always say how do you reach Jews how do you reach Muslims how do you reach anybody live as if it's true and don't compromise if all of us did that I don't know that the world would be changed but I feel the most privileged person to have clarity of truth and the freedom to compromise nothing the minute you compromise you lose your power I agree I agree entirely we are living in crazy times no doubt about it politically America's in the strangest place that's ever been in my lifetime there's nothing that approximates to this again in my lifetime I don't know about the past beyond that but what we've started doing at Ave Maria radio is in order to keep our focus we use the phrase build the church bless the nation and weak in that order yes a lot of we have angelical friends and catholic friends too we're so interested in culture war issues that you know they I think lost their joy because they lose them yeah so we we that's true that's right you're losing and so you've got a runner what are we doing we're not building America per se we're building the body of Christ that's what we've been gifted to do so let's do that we do that that's not that's not saying we're separating ourselves from our responsibilities of citizens it's it's not saying that to be a good disciple that means you can't be a lawyer or can't be a doggie in the world and not of it yeah yeah say the thing with that is is that it isn't just America that's men no no we were if you're building the church you're in solidarity with our brothers and sisters in Poland or Africa and we have a special relationship with Chaldean Catholics in Iraq but friend of mine a priest is in Erbil Iraq now for three years and Detroit has a large called Ian Catholic population so we're following again build the church and with Catholic that clearly means universal this is the thing for me is also going back to the history not only the the universal church all around the world but also back through history and say you know what yeah we're in the bad times right now read some history yeah you know I was going through the you know the French Revolution through this losses communist revolution it's going through times when popes were imprisoned there's been going through times of Rome was sacked and the Pope was running for his life yes all across the bridge you know with soldiers chasing that one Pope disguised themselves as a woman you could see him running away from them I mean the church had been - always been in terrible times and still the rock is there and we build and I go back to st. Benedict on the Benedictine oblate and Benedict went out at the end of the 400s beginning in the 500s and he built the church he built communities of love communities of learning communities of light communities of liturgy and from that great things blossomed so we don't despair this helped me to see a sense of perspective and priorities to keep on doing the job and if it gets worse yeah the kids keep on doing the job our parishes should be windows on the kingdom it should be the one place that people can look to to see something transcendent to their situation they may not know what's going on but they look at people who are loving one another serving one another praying for one another bearing one another's burdens it's a place where love is real they don't know about the bread and wine stuff you know I don't but there's this respectful perplexity that the world should have as a world world and the parish should be this place in the middle of stability yeah you know I'm thinking you know that the year after john paul was shot and he was speaking I think at Fatima it was saying how first of all he was the man and in the mystery and he recognized that the Pope in the mystery but then he also said that the message of Fatima back in 1917 applies as much if not more to today yes and it does to today but it sixteenths of the same the mission of Fatima is not finished he said yeah and the point is that God is disturbed by our sins he's appalled by our sins and so pray repent conversion holiness suffering if we can do that as a church it will strengthen the church in the midst of this crazy world now I want to make sure that we have some time to do something else there have been voices in this crazy world that have been there to help the church in its battle and one of them is the reason we're celebrating a 20th anniversary program and that's Mother Angelica and EWTN talk a bit about how her witness as well as EWTN was important to your journey back to the church well in my case Tom Monaghan gave us the initial funding for Ave Maria radio and at that time mother had just issued a call for Catholics of wealth to purchase stations or leased stations or and that's really the beginning of the Catholic radio boom you know 350 plus stations out there now I we had the first I mean we were the first station to carry EWTN programming in Ann Arbor and then we began creating our own programming you know I did my program and and you know we continued to develop but the that I don't think it would have happened without mother Angelica's call I think in mr. Montana's case and Tom's case I think her basically should put a burr under his saddle he was interested in media but I think her ball made it plausible because he had such respect for her I had the opportunity interviewer didn't or as well as you did because she worked so closely with her but I thought that she was so obviously called and gifted to do what she did that it was easy to just say spirit of God's working here I'm not worried she's a model of heroism she didn't care what anyone thought she cared about the truth she didn't care how people thought she should say it more nicely no don't call people out don't Koko she spoke the truth and what what attracts me is an uncompromising heroic life and that was mother she told me she was Jewish I met her she said I'm Jewish I said I thought you were Italian she's sitting on Jewish I received Jewish blood every day but a heroic uncompromising woman and if we ever want any seal of approval on mother it's what God has done through her never in history the Lord's asking to do something crazy and she said I think that's it's the example of faith she's a person who did what she could with what she had where she was and that's what she did what she couldn't exactly because she I mean the picture of her sort of broadcasting from the garage or whatever was when she started yeah and the Lord bless always obedient in faith you talk about mother any wtn again and from the standpoint of when you were on your journey considering the Catholic Church and feeling like you had nobody to talk to about it did Mother Angelica and EWTN whether for you personally or you've seen it in the lives of others offer this respite of truthfulness to give them courage to move on well I was in England at the time so I was kind of cut off but I got a second or third hand through the tapes of Scott Hahn and and some of the other ministries that were going on around that time yeah and I tell you I didn't watch television I didn't have cable I knew nothing of Mother Angelica at EWTN I hardly knew of you it was Chris Franklin that reduced me to you and coming home network and I've been forever ever grateful you you actually come home network helped me enormous Lee but I have met countless people all over the country and the world I just been five months in Ireland and France all over the world who have come into the church and back into the church because people say you know I wasn't Catholic I don't whether be but but this is crazy nun on TV I just kept listening to her you know just all of it was a crazy great monk and I wasn't a monk you know and he talked about Jesus and that's what got my attention wait a second talk about Jesus yeah they're all about Jesus and in my case it wasn't very direct because I was I become Catholic I was still working within an evangelical context but it was reassuring to know that Catholics were doing this and that that you know it's a lot because you realize now that it can be done so it makes it a lot easier to say well whatever happens there is a place for Catholic ministry in media so it's interesting the plausibility before of us our witness is that when we were all considering the Catholic Church about the same time right and that was at the early period of mother Angelica's minute it would not make sense yeah right but we were starting to hear and here we are 20 years later 25 years later and look at what our willingness Beauty has done it's only later one of the aspects which is not born up very much is the actual the ecumenical movement so often we think of the ecumenical movement of these theological discussions between high level theologians for all being diplomatic and trying to be you know it's like date on remember date on between the Russians and the Americans they all get together but in fact the real a clinical movement as far as I'm concerned is an awful lot of people at grassroots through EWTN through media ministries through be personal example who are actually coming into the Catholic Church and unity is being achieved I know for my part as an Anglican priest I ask myself what can I do to further church unity and the Holy Spirit said you could become Catholic yes that was one one tangible thing that I could do and so I did and I would appeal to those who are listening and thinking about this to say what can you do for church unity you could become Catholic that's the way to fly that flag even if you're interested in unity there really is no better way to make that commitment bold in public than by becoming Catholic and letting everybody to know why yeah there was a saint of the church that wrote years ago a letter about the Trinity but in the midst of that he was talking about the image of a shepherd whose flock has become scattered and how does he get the flock back he keeps one of the leaders sheeps nearby grazing it and with that leader sheep home then the other flock will come back which is why I think our Lord brings clergy mm-hmm opens the door of so many to come home the courage to come home as a witness what if that guy loves the Catholic Church one maybe maybe I can consider it because we live in a very anti Catholic culture all you got nose for in a Protestant families for one of the people to start dating the Catholic and all of a sudden look what all right I'd like you in the time we have to talk to people at home why should they consider making the same journey home that you've made oh I'll just say something very plain and that is it's adventurous you're going to find yourself engage in pursuits and activities that you hadn't considered before you're also going to learn to love people that you would rather avoid because thing about being Catholic is that you're if you're enough angelical you can hive off into smaller communities of like-minded people you can't do that as a Catholic you've got to deal with all kinds and you will learn how to love your enemies better I would say a lot of our listeners be be familiar with CS Lewis as I wasn't one of our great heroes one of the great apologist for the faith and his little book Mere Christianity gives it kind of lowest common denominator for the Christian faith and I I steal ideas as a writer I'm and so I've written a book called more Christianity which actually is is what I would like to share is that Catholicism is not something different it's something more it's the fullness of the faith and Protestantism I sometimes say is like being in an art gallery where you've got one room full of maybe the pictures you like impressionist pictures will say and it's it's good what god is wonderful but Catholicism is like opening the door to this huge gallery with many many other rooms of artwork and many many other things to explore and so Catholicism is more Christianity not less and we would encourage those who are considering it to take that step and to enter this wonderful world of wider on the inside isn't said for those who think that Catholics are the greatest stumbling block to Catholicism he said come on in it's awful the truth will set us free and I want to say that one of our patrons has st. Francis DeSales who says whose main thought is be who you are and be that well on a personal basis I have never been so free to be Who I am since I'm a Catholic I have never been in a church that has such understanding of the human being of our fullness of the dignity of life and we have an atheist on my block and he said I don't I don't believe in God and I said well the God who doesn't exist love you very much and so what I wish to say to you is that God loves you if you're Muslim the woman that that's the son who came from Our Lady of Fatima Jesus Christ is God and he died for your sins and he loves you if you're Jewish he's the Messiah it's the most Jewish thing you could do the whole question that separates all of history's who do men say that I am if he's the Messiah it's a very Jewish thing to do he's God the whole Old Testament points to him if you're an evangelical as I was I will be eternally grateful for all my evangelical years for the love of Scripture for all of that and as st. Augustine has said it's similar to what you just said father to be Catholic is not to have other than Christ to the be Catholic is not to have more than Christ but to be Catholic he said is to have the whole Christ the fullness of Christianity the fullness of life this side of heaven all that God has given us the communion of saints the sacraments and a Jewish mother you should only know he loves you come home journey home what about her separated brethren that say well I've got Jesus it doesn't matter what church it not the whole cheese yeah I think that's the way to look at it there's very evangelical Gospels very truncated it's it's it's the emergency gospel you know that's the way I look at it the emergency gospel what you do when somebody's on the street ready to die but if your plan to live for a while you want to experience Jesus in a as fully as possible and I think you could only do that by acknowledging that his body is extended on the earth today the church is in a certain sense an extension of the Incarnation and I don't and it has again is I think most Protestants have a DOS attic view of the church they can't deal with the institutional bodily material to empirical dimension of it they want to keep it up here where we're all visit invisibly one the Catholic Church says that's not good enough Jesus said it's not good enough he took on flesh yeah so you could point to him you could abuse him you could make him stories about him the Catholic Church has that material quality to it that someone could say where is the Church of Christ on earth today well it might be here it might be there might be here but but I can say it definitely is he is here for what so for all of its human failings and frailties there it is an evangelical would say God is not a wafer in the Eucharist he's not a wafer and a Jew would say to me he's not a man I'd say you're right he's not a man but it became a man right and the one who became man became our food is it impossible for God known this question of Converse I sometimes used that parable of the banquet and and the servant who comes in and sits at the lowest seat yeah he's at the banquet and he isn't he is down there but maybe he's only getting crackers and water and the lord of the other feasts says hey friend come up higher in other words more to it than that and come and come and sit next to right here at the table I also think of that in the Vatican too there was a moment when when the Fathers of the council had to deal with this issue of the Catholic Church and the church our Lord established and there was a debate there right in the end they showed this word subsists right and there is some that think they they flinched but I see that as an absolutely beautiful confirmation of the reality of Christ's Church because on the one hand the council and the Catholic Church affirms the work of the Holy Spirit and grace in the lives or a separate Brethren Church celebrates that we celebrate together yeah but yet that doesn't mean that it doesn't matter no the fullness continues is the word subsist remains abides same word in this church and so as John Paul said the trajectory of all the beauty of the work of the Grace and the Holy Spirit is towards unity in the one Church what a blessing this has been to have you three I want to make sure I have time for you to give us a blessing we have a moment or two would you give the audience something to pray for how can they pray for you for us for usually for you I would ask that for for us that you would pray that we would be a hundred percent in God's will and that the women who come in would never ever ever disgrace this sign to God that we would be holy and one thought the message of Lucia Lady of Fatima told Lucia that the final battle in these days will be for the family and that is the reason for our existence for the restoration of the family and your prayers to a dead end would be attrition when you say you hope your power you mean your or I mean the ordered or doesn't marry my it's alright yes well because our work is focused on building the church and then because by doing that we will bless the nation I would just say pray for Catholics who have not encountered Christ I think this is vital this is what we call the new evangelization what's new about it we are lighting the baptized and I'd say this is a great moment in history and it's an opportunity for the church to become experientially all that Christ has accomplished for it in the atonement and the resurrection and the giving of the spirit of Pentecost but what is what I want is I want more and more Catholics who are Catholic in name only to understand the grace of their baptism by encountering Jesus that happened to me when I was 23 and so I'm asking that that would you would pray that that same grace would be extended to millions of American Catholics I would I would say that pray that people would help me to understand the priority of my priesthood in the priesthood that we share together because that is the source of God's grace working through me for his church adding to all the truths all right and I'd like to say every blessing for us before our viewers in the name of the Father Son Holy Spirit amen loving will pour down upon us your promised blessing defend us from all harm help us to be followers of Jesus Christ committed and intentional disciples the loped may the Lord make his face shine upon you and give you his peace in the name of the Father the Son and Holy Spirit amen thank the three of you a thank you very much for joining us on this program company of you and thank you for joining us on this episode of the journey home I pray that their stories and their witness are an encouragement to you god bless you see next week [Music] you

Channel: EWTN

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Length: 84min 11sec (5051 seconds)

Published: Tue Sep 12 2017