John le Carré (1931-2020) on the Iraq War, Corporate Power, the Exploitation of Africa & More

the late john le carre reading from his 2003 essay the united states of america has gone mad john le carre was the pen name for david cornwell he died on december 12th at the age of 89. let's go back to that conversation with john le carre in 2010 i interviewed him with democracy now's dennis moynihan this is democracy now democracynow.org the war and peace report we are on the road in london just along the thames not far from parliament not far from mi5 and mi6 the international and domestic spy agencies here so it is most relevant to bring you john le carre this hour we spend with the foremost spy writer of our time welcome to democracy now now it might confuse our audience when i say welcome to democracy now david cornwell um explain where john le carre came from well i've told a lot of lies about that in my time i have to confess i began writing when i was still in the british foreign service and it was then understood that even if you wrote about butterfly collecting you used another name so the fact that i was in a secret department does not play a part then i i think i decided that i needed three pieces to a name that they would arrest the eye and put an accent on the last part then the word kari in french has a bunch of ambiguous meanings a bulgari for example is a dance where the ladies ask the men to dance uh curry at roulette if you put a numero carre you put a a a counter on each corner of a number and so it goes on and i think uh an um carre is a little bit a dubious guy that seemed to me to suit me perfectly at that time well in the interest of transparency we'll just call you david cornwell just david will do fine now we were interested because channel 4 just said the last interview with john le carre and yet here we are why did you change your mind i didn't change my mind the full text with channel 4 was that that was my last interview in the uk and this is the last book about which i intend to give interviews that isn't because i'm in any sense retiring i found that actually i've said everything i really want to say outside my books i would just like i'm i'm in wonderful shape i'm entering my 80th year i just want to devote myself entirely to writing and not to this particular art form of conversation well we're very thankful to be with you today i want to bring dennis moynihan into this conversation my colleague who invariably has a spy novel in his hand and it is usually a novel by john le carre if he hasn't read it once he's read it three times and then he's on to the fourth david the the latest book your 22nd novel our kind of traitor uh is about uh well i guess to frame it for our audience who who may not be familiar with your your half century of writing um about half of that time you wrote during the cold war and since then you've been uh focusing uh less on that uh story and more on the uh multinational corporate malfeasance and the confluence of kind of corporate interests and government uh skullduggery this story uh you want to lay it out kind of in broad strokes the money laundering the the the importance of drug money and laundered money in propping up this is really a it's a story and it's supposed to entertain and if it doesn't entertain there's no point in the message uh the message is message has got to be carried on the back of the beetle otherwise there's there is none um so what we have is a young couple they're thinking of getting married they go off and take a holiday in antigua they both love tennis and they're middle class one's a lawyer the other is a tutor at oxford and they're playing tennis somebody watches them and all of a sudden the fellow perry is invited to play tennis with a russian guy and from then on there is purpose behind the invitation from then on they are drawn into a world they didn't know existed they're both intelligent decent moral people and they are faced with the anarchy in fact the kind of exported anarchy of post-cold war russia so the wild east has come to visit them in antigua and from then on they are drawn into an intrigue that dima my russian character i don't spoil the story by telling you this says he wishes to defect he has a quarrel with his gang boss who's a the boss of bosses in russia and he's going to get even with him he's going to betray him he's going to pour out all the secrets about how he launders money on a vast scale on behalf of a collection of russian brotherhoods of vori russian crime has been integrated into the into first of all in the soviet union on a grand scale it it was developed the crime families were developed in the camps of siberia and dima emerges from that world he was a bare knuckle gangster spent a bit of time on brighton beach learned the arts of money laundering learned to wear suits learned to speak half decent english and settled in switzerland and from there operated a vast money laundering scheme now this isn't fiction that part of it isn't fiction money laundering is simply everywhere on the grand scale it's endemic to banking you have to bear in mind that when lehman brothers wasn't going to function anymore and the big banks weren't lending to one another back at that terrible time 352 billion dollars of illegal money were then tacitly released upon the market and that was about the only money people were lending to one another so money laundering is not some distant fantasy it's actually how you handle the profits of extortion tax evasion criminal conspiracy and huge quantities of drug money how you get that into the white sector and what we are gradually learning from these little exposes that come to light is that there is almost no way of of uh denying people in the end the profits of their crime which is a tragedy and it's also a frightful annoyance because we pay vast sums of money across the way here to agencies that are supposed to stop money laundering doesn't happen i mean you've got a column right there i have a column right here i wish i had the figures in my head this is from the international herald tribune and i guess that means it also comes from the new york times of monday september the 13th not so long ago barclays a british bank paid 298 million for conducting transactions with cuba iran libya myanmar and sudan in violation of united nations trade sanctions barclays was discovered to have systematically disguised the movement of hundreds of millions of dollars through wire transfers that were stripped of the critical information required by law last may when abn amro bank now largely part of the royal bank of scotland was caught funneling money for the benefit of iran libya and sudan it was fined 500 million and no one went to jail last december credit suisse group agreed to pay 536 million fine for doing the same in recent years union bank of california american express bank international bank atlantic and wachovia have all been caught moving huge sums of drug money but no one went to jail the banks just admitted to criminal conduct and paid the government a cut of their profits the thing is it is very undemocratic because if you or i go to one of these banks along here somewhere with a few thousand dollars in a briefcase if i'm a britain do it i have to give a really thorough explanation bank manager may call in the police i have to produce my passport if i want to open the counter i have to produce a utilities bill and all of that but if mr orloff comes to a bank here and says i am from russia i have millions of millions of dollars please and here is a letter from a reputable lawyer in moscow and here is evidence that i run hotels casinos what not bank manager says what are you doing for lunch and we're away so the bigger the sum the easier the crime now that is of course something that afflicts us through life but it's the case here and the critics i know you don't read reviews but the critics who say oh come on this is so exaggerated the legitimate economy does not rest on the uh illegitimate one the illegal one alas those critics don't read their own newspapers and nor perhaps have they noticed that a former head of mi5 our security service who was translated to the house of lords was recently denied the senior post in a security committee on account of her connections with oligarchs in the ukraine these oligarchs were supposedly connected with criminal conspiracy we also have a charming case which we look back on with embarrassment where a leading member of the rothschild family and our present chancellor of the exchequer that's finance minister uh and uh the eminence griez of the labour party at that time lord mandelson were all found holidaying together off the coast of of uh corfu sitting on the boat of a man called deripaska who at that time i believe was wanted in the united states for on money laundering charges so we have a certain amount of evidence before us which you would think would silence critics who say we're all in perfect shape could you read the beginning of our kind of traitor at seven o'clock of a caribbean morning on the island of antigua one peregrine make peace otherwise known as perry an all-round amateur athlete of distinction and until recently tutor in english literature at a distinguished oxford college played three sets of tennis against a muscular stiff-backed bald brown-eyed russian man of dignified bearing in his middle fifties called dima how this match came about was quickly the subject of intense examination by british agents professionally disposed against the workings of chance yet the events leading up to it were on perry's side blameless the dawning of his 30th birthday three months previously had triggered a life change in him that had been building up for a year or more without his being aware of it seated head in hands at eight o'clock in the morning of his modest oxford rooms after a seven mile run that had done nothing to ease his sense of calamity he had searched his soul to know just what the first third of his natural life had achieved apart from providing him with an excuse for not engaging in the world beyond the city's dreaming spires last term he had delivered a series of lectures on george orwell under the title a stifled britain and his rhetoric had alarmed him would orwell have believed it possible that the same overfed voices which had haunted him in the 1930s the same crippling incompetence addiction to foreign wars and assumptions of entitlement were happily in place in 2009 receiving no response from the blank student faces staring up at him he had supplied it for himself no all would emphatically not have believed it or if he had he would have taken to the streets he would have smashed some serious glass the late british novelist john le carre in a 2010 interview with democracy now he died on december 12th at the age of 89. we'll be back with more of the interview in a minute this is democracy now democracynow.org the war and peace report i'm amy goodman as we remember the legendary british novelist john le carre the pen name for david cornwell democracy now's dennis moynihan and i spoke to him in london in 2010. we are not far from mi5 and mi6 right now which takes us way back in time um for our audience who may not be so familiar with your history um in fact you did work for the mi5 and mi6 i worked for one and then for the other yes and i suppose that that was nearly half a century ago um so to regard me as an expert on on espionage is absurd but on modern espionage um these are the spy agencies of britain these are the spy agencies in britain yes mi5 is responsible for domestic security but it has no executive powers unlike your fbi uh sis the secret intelligence service also known as mi6 also has no executive powers and operates abroad on cia lines but with with a tiny percentage of the budget and a tiny percentage of the personnel unlike the cia it is not also in competition with 21 other intelligence agencies within your own country or whatever the number is something like that and i suppose that if i could generalize about my work in intelligence in those days uh for better or worse we counted ourselves uh an elite with a very considerable responsibility to speak truth to power like good journalists that whatever whatever we came upon however offensive it was to those in power we told it straight and what i fear i have seen in the run-up to the iraq war in this country is the politicization of intelligence to fit the political intentions of our masters and to my mind that was a terrible moment in the history the the visible history of intelligence work in this country where the intelligence service itself became effectively co-author and signatory to the so-called dodgy dossier which on the strength of which colin powell was able to present a dire picture of the threat from iraq which turned out to be untrue january of 2003 one of the largest anti-war marches in world history happened just behind us here i took part in it and what are your reflections now well i think that my anger still stands i can't understand that blair has an afterlife at all it seems to me that any politician who takes his country to war under false pretenses has committed the ultimate sin i think that a war in which we refuse to accept the body count of those we kill is also a war which we should be ashamed we've always got to be careful of that [Music] i think that i wasn't speaking as a prophet i was just speaking as a as an angry citizen i suppose i think it's true that we've we've caused irreparable damage in the middle east i think we shall pay for it for a long time one of the problems surely is that victims never forget and the winners do and they forget very quickly if people knew basically for example what we had done in iran when we ousted mossadeg through the cia and secret service here across the way and installed the shah and trained his ghastly secret police force in all the black arts the savak if people understood the extent to which we had humiliated iran then they would understand the later developments in iran and iran's posture now if people would look at the map and see the extent to which iran is encircled by nuclear powers they wouldn't take it perhaps quite so seriously that iran is seeking to arm itself with if it is with nuclear weapons um it i am i remain terrified of the capacity of the media the capacity of spin doctors here and abroad uh particularly the united states media to perpetuate false lies perpetuate lies mussolini i think defined fascism as the moment when you couldn't put a cigarette paper between political and corporate power he assumed when he offered that definition that media power was already his but i worry terribly that the the absence of of serious critical argument uh is going to produce a new kind of fanaticism the new simplicities that are as dangerous as the ones which caused us to march against iraq and as as misunderstood can you talk david cornwell uh aka john le carre about what's happening with tony blair with his new book out with event after event being cancelled eggs being thrown at him the anger on the streets well i don't know what the level of protest was in the united states by the time you went to war in iraq but here i think an aggregate of about three million people marched in britain uh the first march in which i took part must have numbered something like a million and uh so the uh and i remember we we stopped this huge crowd which is being really very crudely manhandled by the police at the edges we stopped we're all wedged together in looking into downing street where the prime minister's residency is and nobody seemed to speak but a kind of feral roar of popular will rose and i tried to imagine what it must have been like for for blair sitting inside that building and hearing that sound uh it was like a huge cry that goes up at a football game or something like that where you actually it it is no longer verbalized it's just a animal seething noise and i i think it will always be remembered of him that he took us to war as most people perceive on the strength of lies now you have to have to bear in mind also that we are creating what american media are referring to as a deep state in this country that is i think i read in indeed in the washington post that uh 890 odd thousand americans who are not in government service are cleared for top secret and above i don't know to what extent that situation is replicated here but more and more i have the feeling that the power of the counterterror market is expanding and creating a a wider and ever widening circle of those who are initiated indoctrinated part of the securities structure whether directly or indirectly and those who are not so then it makes it possible as at the time for example of the parliamentary vote on whether we should go to war in iraq it makes it possible for a senior mp to take a neophyte aside and say if you'd seen the papers that i've seen you would know which lobby to go into when the vote comes up and this suggestion that there are those in the know and those not in the know and that those that not in the know are second class citizens is extremely dangerous to society and uh i think we have to address it all the time we have no idea we don't have a spokesman for these intelligence services either one of them either either one of the three main intelligence services we have inspired leaks we have people who seem to speak with authority but when somebody tells us suddenly that we've gone on to red alert and there are tanks outside london airport or whatever it is we don't know by what process this definition reaches us it's very easy inside an intelligence service to develop a capsule mentality you live inside the bubble the one thing you begin to lose is common sense sense of balance your and particularly when it's men altogether men in a room i always think that was the awful secret of the bay of pigs catastrophe it was actually the guys telling each other who they were and they were they were frightfully clever men and they'd done amazing things some of them horrible things in vietnam and they were together and they were conspiring there was nobody there to say boys just take it down a bit just just step back is this sensible do we really believe the cubans are going to rush down and embrace our troops when they land on the beach it's seven years after the invasion of iraq you've moved from blair in this country and in the united states it's gone from bush to obama who then expanded the war in afghanistan what is your assessment of the united states i suffer from the same frustration that every decent american suffers from that is that you begin to wonder whether decent liberal instincts decent humanitarian instincts can actually penetrate the right-wing voice get a get through the the the steering of american opinion by the mass media i don't know what the percentage now is but i i believe it's still something like 65 or 70 percent of americans believe that saddam was involved in the twin towers am i right in that something like that well we we haven't gone as far down that road yet but we do have pretty horrendous manipulation of the media by our various press parents and we have enormous intrusions into our domestic affairs by the rupert murdoch empire i find that very scary you know former australian now an american dictating to brits what they should be thinking i find that very very very unsettling and and i oppose it wherever i can um therefore as i say i i share the frustration i think of very many americans that when something is is is clear common sense when there's a great humanitarian need somehow or another it's it's the the conservative voice the orthodox voice the the chauvinistic or the patriotic voice that outshouts other people's decent thinking processes um i think is crudely put but it's a very crude situation that that um it's it's the feeling i think that many of us have of obama is that the good things he would really like to do are being frustrated and now uh his own democratic party is not helping or supporting him and that the the corporate and other lobbies are are tying his hands i i think that's the most charitable perception that one can make david would you go to one of tony blair's events no i wouldn't nor would i buy the book at the last election in which he stood i was invited by the guardian newspaper to interview him and after much thought i declined because i did not see how i could lay a glove on him and i've asked some pretty heavy hitting journalists what questions they would have asked in retrospect that might have unseated him a little it might have thrown him and they said almost with one voice there's nothing you can get positive there's no way of doing it i think i would have asked him one question perhaps and i'd have asked it repeatedly i'd have asked him about his faith because we were told when journalists asked about blair's faith the reply was we don't do god here well of course he does do god and he reports that his actions have been put before god and confirmed as if somehow god has signed him signed a chit for him i think that the question of somebody's religious faith is absolutely central to what we think of them if we are members of the electorate we have to know if it is for example somebody's conviction widely held among uh christians in the united states that the second coming of christ is not possible till the greater israel is established we need to know that that's an important political perception in blair's case i would have asked him that question and i'd have pressed him on it i'd have asked him whether god had ever restrained him i i i find it very strange that we elect a politician who then claims to serve a higher deity who guides him i did what i believe is right will you tell us please how that relates to the christian ethic do you believe in war first and negotiation afterwards exactly how does this work and the second question i would ask him is the really painful one which i i could not have asked if if i hadn't gone on my own journeying have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school do you really know what you're doing when you order shark door are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to iraq or why he went to any war i think that if anything has happened to europe since 1945 that defines it it is collectively europeans do not believe in war anymore until it comes as an absolute last resort and then they're going to do it rather badly the united states i think still sees war as a necessary part of its existence it's impossible to maintain the military on that scale a pentagon on that scale without turning it over you've got to have officers who are experienced in command and control you've got to have troops who who've been blooded so we were in that sense at odds i was as a european i was at odds with the whole notion of a preemptive strike i think many europeans have that in common of course with very many americans too feel the same so i would have tried to challenge him in that area and as i think i said earlier in the interview for me there are very few absolutes about human behavior but i think a leader who does take his country to war under false pretenses is simply not an acceptable person i don't think that we should be we should be weighing the rights and wrongs of that it seems to me to be quite simply wrong john le carre the british spy novelist speaking in 2010 in london he died on december 12th at the age of 89. we'll be back with more of our interview in a minute this is democracy now democracynow.org the war and peace report i'm amy goodman with dennis moynihan as we go back to our 2010 interview in london with the master spy novelist john le carre who recently died at the age of 89. can we talk about corporations because it's an issue you have taken on in your later books in a huge way and interestingly particularly corporate power in africa whether we're talking the constant gardner which took place in kenya or we're talking the mission song which took place in congo in the democratic republic of congo yeah well it's where i have seen globalization at work on the ground it's a pretty ugly sight it's a it's a boardroom fantasy what it actually means is the exploitation of very cheap labor very often the ecological disaster that comes with it the creation of mega cities the depletion of agrarian cultures and tribal cultures it's about the effect of globalization where again where i have seen it uh has been negative as far as the local population is concerned it's enriched the very few uh in the country where it takes place and it has totally dismayed the inhabitants otherwise so ask me what corporate power means to me it means the the ability of the individual to sacrifice his own instincts his own decent instincts in the name of the corporation that people will do things to on behalf of the corporation to a group of people which they would never do to their next door neighbor so that all the decent humanity seems to be set aside the moment they walk through the corporate doors in the constant gardener particular it was quite extraordinary to to go to basel to get among the young pharmaceutical executives in a private way promised them that i would never tell that divulge their names and listen to them pouring out their rage against the the work they were doing at the people who were making them do it they were still taking the penny and they were still they were still doing what they were doing they were still contributing to the invention of diseases they were fiddling with compounds to turn them into new patents when they actually had no greater effect than the previous patent they were joining the lie that every new compound put on the market cost six or eight hundred million dollars which is which is pretty good nonsense when you think that many of the main uh health life-saving drugs that go on the market have been developed for instance in your own federal laboratories and then sold off by some strange method to the pharmaceutical companies so they didn't do the hard work themselves very often um so when we think as supposedly with pride that many corporations have the budgets uh of which are larger have budgets which are larger than the many small nations um i find that most alarming and of course in our country we're up against the fact that huge corporations are effective here control supermarkets whatever they do and they perfect virtually no tax we're back to how they launder their money or if there's a more polite way of saying how they apply sophisticated taxation arrangements so they don't pay tax can you give us a thumbnail sketch of the constant gardener it's a young a young fellow in the foreign office born into the clover eaten educated a sense of political responsibility a little bit of a frozen child stiff parents no love in his early life falls in love with a beautiful idealistic young woman and she marries him it's almost she who does it and they go after kenya and she engages in charitable work and comes upon evidence that a big pharmaceutical company is using a bunch of people in in a village in africa in kenya as human guinea pigs they sign the consent forms they don't know what they're signing they're bullied into it by the local representatives of the pharmaceutical company everything is outsourced everything is given away to other people so the company itself is never directly responsible and she becomes very involved in this she takes a stand and she is murdered he who adores her uh comes to the conclusion that he must take up her message and take up her fight and carries it on and in the end romantically i'm nothing if not a romantic in some some respects um in the end he dies as part of the mission and you may say that he joins her makes a similar sacrifice um and so they both of them did the decent thing against the most anonymous and and horrific uh kind of threat which is one of untouchable corporate power the things that are done in the name of the shareholder are to me as terrifying as the things that are done dare i say it in the name of god montesquieu said there never means so many civil wars as in the kingdom of god and i begin to feel that's true the shareholder is the excuse for everything and to me i'm not suggesting we make some sudden lurch into socialism that isn't the case at all i think it's more to do with the exercise of individual conscience let's play a clip of constant garden big pharmaceuticals right up there with the arms deals payoffs cover-ups unmarked graves people that kill anybody poor man seems to have convinced himself it was a conspiracy in which you're all complicit there's a contract out on it you'll never know who ordered it that's the way it works it's corporate matter that was a clip of constant gardner we mentioned congo and the mission song earlier and you just mentioned it again but i do want to ask if you'd simply describe the nut of that story because the story of congo in eastern congo is one that is rarely told yet millions of people have died and the devastation of the environment has been just horrifying you did choose to go there right now i did choose to go there and i was escorted by a wonderful american man jason sterns who is a dedicated african student of africa and a lover of africa and also michaela wrong who'd written non-fiction books about africa and we agreed we would make a three and we would go we went first of all to to rwanda and from from rwanda we went by jeep then into eastern congo and we stayed in bukavu i think we were in bukavu for for about i don't know eight or nine days and i think there were two or three riots there while we were there um and the tragedy of congo is almost it's it is appalling it doesn't really it doesn't the congo's fault even congo has become the battleground for other people's wars repeatedly congo is cursed with amazing mineral resources diamonds coltan now i believe up in the north east of congo oil even god help them because without any civil society to function they uh have been exploited not simply in terms of boys soldiers awful gang wars that sweep through the jungle uh um mass rape as a military weapon they've been subjected to every hell on earth these poor people and meanwhile don't think that africans are disposed to corruption where we are not so to speak actually most of the corruption that has taken place in congo on a vast scale is western driven so there are something like 80 or 90 airlines in quotes registered in in in congo and these simply belong to tiny exploitative companies that harness boy soldiers to and kids to dig out the uh um the diamonds or the coal town whatever it may be and ship it out of congo without paying duty or anything of that sort without paying royalties to anyone is theft and congo has been exploited by everybody on account of these reasons in addition to providing the battleground for other people's wars as we wrap up i wanted to ask you about the writing process and why writing is so important to you well it's i think the first process for me of writing is is making making order out of chaos out of such a convergence of of experiences and and and so many insoluble things that i've seen in my life to be able to draw a line to to tell a fable which illustrates them which entertains and which delivers even if it's a sad one some kind of resolution is for me if you will a catharsis a therapy i i think also in the making of character i feel completely happy it always seems to me that that the excitement of people is the possibilities of their character who are you we don't know each other but i could imagine you could be this person you could be that person and in my book you're that person it's i i don't plot i don't i don't make what you're supposed to do in writing schools or flow charts and how i will proceed i try to get as in this case i get two innocent people into a hitchcockian muddle and make them fight their way out but from scene to scene they have to lead me and that's it's it's like asking somebody whether they're musical or why they're musical uh it's to me that is the whole of life i can't put it differently i um i just want to i want to leave the public stage in so far as i've ever been on it and and i would now i'm fit and and resolved and i've got a wonderful family and i just want to spend the rest of my time doing what i do best which is writing i love being an entertainer i love being a storyteller i don't think there is a story unless it provokes a little unless it engages i don't think there's such a thing as entertaining escapism not for me i think there is entertaining involvement and that's what i try to do and do you write with a pen i do right with a pen i'm not advertising this one because the cap flies off all the time and i actually i'm reduced to pasting them together i write only with a pen i've learned i've learned to operate a computer to communicate with my children because they won't communicate with me in any other medium but otherwise i write entirely with a pen and i have an immensely attentive gifted tactful wife who who loves to type the stuff out gives it back to me and watches bermus as i rip it up again and give it back to her and that goes on that's that's our relationship i think we uh we approached you first for an interview perhaps about eight or nine months ago when you were in the midst of writing our kind of trader yes and your agent said he absolutely doesn't communicate with with people like us while you're writing well i'm sure it was a mistake [Laughter] uh so the the cloistering yourself on the cliffs of cornwall or wherever you happen to be writing uh is that an important part of here yes um i mean for some books i've i've traveled a lot and i i was very much driven by graham green's dictum that if you're reporting on human misery amy you know this far better than i if you're reporting on human misery you do well to share it and that's that was a principle that came to me late i started writing books that were set abroad like the honorable school boy and so on i really thought that although the thought horrified me and i have no natural courage whatever i should see war so i went off to cambodia and i went off and actually i became the the the protected child of the of the war correspondents and i was very fortunate about that so by travel by talking by listening above all in the places where i go to as or as it was east congo or wherever the books take me then i fill up my rucksack my backpack and then i like to take everything all my scraps of paper and my memories down to cornwall and sort them out there so it's a it's engagement escape engagement escape um i i think again it's very similar to a journalist's life except nobody checks my story out i don't have to tell i don't have to tell the small truth i just have to i have to be looking for the big truth master spy novelist john le carre the pen name for david cornwell he recently died at the age of 89. we did that interview in 2010 in london special thanks to democracy now's dennis moynihan and that does it for our show democracy now is produced with renee feltz mike burke deena guzder libby rainey nermeen shaikh maria tarasena carla wills tammy warrenoff sherina nadura sam alkoff tamari a studio john hamilton robbie karen honey massoud and adriano contreras our general manager is julie crosby special thanks to becca staley miriam barnard paul powell mike defilippo miguel neguera hugh graham david prude and dennis mccormick i'm amy goodman thanks for joining us

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Published: Fri Dec 25 2020