>>> WELCOME BACK TO "MORNING JOE." JOINING US NOW, CHIEF MEDICAL ADVISER TO THE PRESIDENT, DR. ANTHONY FAUCI. DR. FAUCI, GOOD MORNING. ITS GOOD TO SEE YOU. WE WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE STATE OF CORONAVIRUS, BUT AS YOU MAY HAVE HEARD, MANY OF YOUR E-MAILS WERE MADE PUBLIC IN A FOIA REQUEST FROM BUZZFEED AND "THE WASHINGTON POST." LET ME ASK YOU A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS ABOUT THAT. FIRST OF ALL, IN APRIL OF 2020, THE LAB LEAK THEORY FROM THE WUHAN LAB WAS DISCUSSED IN SOME OF YOUR E-MAILS. DR. COLLINS, THE HEAD OF THE NIH SEEMED TO THINK IT WAS A CONSPIRACY. DID YOU AGREE AT THAT TIME, IN PRUL OF APRIL OF 2020 THAT THE LAB LEAK THEORY WAS A CONSPIRACY THEORY? >> NO, NOT NECESSARILY AT ALL. THE SITUATION WAS WE DIDNT KNOW AND WE STILL DONT KNOW WHAT THE ORIGIN IS. THAT IF YOU LOOK HISTORICALLY AND THE WAY THINGS ROLLED OUT, WE ALL FELT AND STILL DO, ACTUALLY, WILLIE THAT IT IS MORE LIKELY TO BE A NATURAL JUMPING OF SPECIES FROM AN ANIMAL RESERVOIR TO A HUMAN. HOUR, SINCE HOWEVER, SINCE WE DONT KNOW THAT FOR SURE, THAT YOUVE GOT TO KEEP AN OPEN MIND. YOU CAN SAY YOU THINK ONE THING IS MORE LIKELY THAN THE OTHER, BUT THE FACT THAT IT COULD HAVE BEEN SOMETHING ELSE CLEARLY WAS THERE. IT WAS LOW ON THE LIST OF WHAT WE THOUGHT THE LIKELIHOOD WAS. BUT, IN FACT, THATS THE REASON WHY WE ALL ARE NOW SAYING THERES A CONSIDERABLE AMOUNT, APPROPRIATELY, OF INTEREST IN TRYING TO FIND OUT WHAT THE ORIGIN IS. AND THATS WHY WERE ALL IN FAVOR OF A FAIR, OPEN INVESTIGATION TO SEE IF WE CAN ACTUALLY FIND OUT THE ORIGIN. BECAUSE WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THIS DOESNT HAPPEN AGAIN. >> SINCE THOSE E-MAILS IN APRIL OF 2020, DR. FAUCI, HAVE YOU COME AROUND MORE TO THE POSSIBILITY OF A LAB LEAK THEORY? DO YOU THINK ITS MORE CREDIBLE TODAY THAN IT WAS THEN? >> YOU KNOW, IM NOT SO SURE. I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT HAS STIMULATED INTEREST, WHICH I THINK IS IMPORTANT TO INVESTIGATE, IS THE IDEA, AND WE NEED TO FIND OUT IF ITS TRUE OR NOT, OF THE FACT THAT THERE WERE SOME PEOPLE WHO WORKED AT THE LAB WHO GOT HILLILL. WE NEED TO FIND OUT, "A," IS THAT TRUE? AND "B," WHAT WAS THE NATURE OF THEIR ILLNESS? AND THOSE ARE THINGS WE JUST NEED TO FIND OUT. IF THATS SOMETHING THAT TURNS OUT TO BE AN IMPORTANT FEATURE, THEN YOU CAN SAY, HMM, THAT MAY LEAN A LITTLE BIT MORE TOWARDS ONE. BUT I THINK WHAT PEOPLE MIGHT BE GETTING CONFUSED, IS THERE MORE INTEREST IN IT OR REALLY MORE EVIDENCE? THE EVIDENCE IS VERY SPARSE. AND THATS THE REASON WHY WE WANT TO KEEP LOOKING. THE EVIDENCE FOR ONE OF THE OTHER. IF YOU LOOK HISTORICALLY, THE WAY THINGS HAVE ROLLED OUT, THE ORIGINAL SARS/COV1, MERS, EBOLA, THE DISEASES THAT EMERGE FROM A RESERVOIR AND AN ANIMAL, IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME. AND THATS THE REASON WHY WE FEEL THATS THE MOST LIKELY. BUT SINCE WE HAVENT PROVEN THAT, YOUVE GOT TO KEEP AN OPEN MIND, AND AN OPEN MIND MEANS YOU CONTINUE TO LOOK. AS AN OPEN MIND. NOT IN A PEJORATIVE WAY OF THINKING THAT THEY DID SOMETHING ME VARIOUS OR WHAT HAPPENED. JUST KEEP AN OPEN MIND AND TAKE A LOOK. AND THATS WHAT EVERYONE WANTS RIGHT NOW. >> THE CONVENTIONAL WISDOM FOR SO LONG, AS YOU KNOW, THAT IT WAS ZU NOT ICZOONOTIC, THAT THER TYPES OF A BAT IN THE WET MARKET, THERE WERE TALK OF PENGUINS IN THE WET MARKET. IS THERE MORE EVIDENCE FOR THAT THEORY THAN THERE IS THE LAB LEAK? IN OTHER WORDS, ARENT THEY BOTH EQUALLY POSSIBLE? >> OBVIOUSLY, WHEN YOU SAY "POSSIBLE," ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE. AND THATS THE REASON WHY I SAY YOU NEED TO KEEP AN OPEN MIND. ONE OF THE THINGS THAT PEOPLE NEED TO UNDERSTAND IS THAT YOU NEED TO KEEP LOOKING FOR THAT LINK OF THE JUMP NATURALLY FROM AN ANIMAL TO A HUMAN. I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT HAPPENED EARLY ON IS THAT THE SCIENTISTS, YOU KNOW, SOME PEOPLE DONT WANT TO ADMIT IT, BUT THE SCIENTISTS IN CHINA, MANY OF THEM ARE REALLY VERY GOOD SCIENTISTS. I THINK EPIDEMIOLOGY, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT THEY DID WRONG IS THAT THEY CLEANED OUT THE MARKET AS SOON AS THERE WAS THIS OUTRAGE FOR FEAR THAT IT WOULD SPREAD EVEN MORE. THAT COULD HAVE BEEN AN EPIDEMIOLOGICAL MISTAKE, BECAUSE THEY MAY HAVE WIPED OUT EVIDENCE OF THE JUMPING OF SPECIES. BUT YOU STILL HAVE TO KEEP LOOKING. AND THATS WHAT EVERYONE IS DOING, TO CONTINUE TO LOOK. I HAVE TO KEEP EMPHASIZING THAT, BECAUSE PEOPLE WHO ARE PEJORATIVE ABOUT IT AND CONFLATE DIFFERENT THINGS KEEP SAYING, WELL, YOU THINK THIS, YOU THINK THIS. AN OPEN MIND IS THE CLEAR THING WE NEED TO DO. >> A QUESTION YOU PROBABLY HEAR A LOT, I HEAR A LOT IS FROM PEOPLE OUT ON THE STREET AND PEOPLE WHO ARE ON OUR SHOW. WHY IS THIS SO HARD? WHY IS IT SO HARD TO FIND THE SOURCE OF THIS OUTBREAK THATS KILLED MORE THAN 3 MILLION PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD, 600,000 PEOPLE HERE IN THE UNITED STATES, HAS UPENDED OUR LIVES AND OUR ECONOMY? IS IT BECAUSE CHINA IS SO OPAQUE. IS IT BECAUSE W.H.O IS NOT SHARING INFORMATION? WHY IS THIS SO DIFFICULT? >> THERE ARE SEVERAL REASONS, WILLIE, WHY ITS DIFFICULT. I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS IS THAT WE NEED BETTER ACCESS TO ALL THE INFORMATION. I MEAN, ITS OBVIOUSLY IN CHINAS INTERESTS TO FIND OUT EXACTLY WHAT IT IS. AND THE "IS" OF THE NATURAL THEORY WOULD BE TO FIND THAT LINK. SO YOU HAVE TO KEEP LOOKING FOR IT. I MEAN, OBVIOUSLY, YOU WANT OPENNESS AND COOPERATION. ONE OF THE WAYS YOU CAN GET IT IS DONT BE ACCUSATORY. TRY TO GET BOTH A FORENSIC, A SCIENTIFIC, AND AN INVESTIGATIONAL APPROACH. I THINK THE ACCUSATORY PART ABOUT IT IS ONLY GOING TO GET THEM TO PULL BACK EVEN MORE. WEVE GOT TO DO IT IN A COMBINATION OF DIPLOMACY, SCIENTIFIC FORENSIC INVESTIGATION, AND DO IT IN A WAY OF THE PEOPLE OF GOOD FAITH, NOT WHO WANT TO DO BLAME, BUT PEOPLE WHO IN GOOD FAITH ARE REALLY TRYING TO FIND OUT WHAT THE ORANGE IS. AND WERE SEEING A LOT OF, YOU KNOW -- I DONT EVEN WANT TO DESCRIBE IT. A LOT OF POINTING OF FINGERS AND THINGS LIKE THAT. KEEP AN OPEN MIND AND GO AFTER THE TRUTH. >> YOU SAY ITS IN CHINAS INTERESTS. THOUGH, WOULD YOU AGREE, DR. FAUCI, ITS IN THEIR INTERESTS TO HIDE IT, IF THERE WAS A LAB LEAK OR WORSE, IF THEY WERE DESIGNING SOMETHING IN THEIR LAB, THAT THE WORLD THAT AMERICA DIDNT KNOW, THAT IT CAME OUT OF THEIR OWN LAB, WOULDNT THEY WANT TO CONCEAL THAT? WILLIE, I DONT WANT TO BE SPECULATING ON THAT. EVERY TIME I SAY SOMETHING LIKE THAT, YOU KNOW IT AS WELL AS I, IT WILL GET COMPLETELY TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT AND GO INTO THE TWITTER WORLD LIKE CRAZY. SO, IM GOING TO LEAVE THAT TO OTHER PEOPLE AND NOT SURMISE AND GUESS WHOS INTERESTS ITS IN. ITS NOT HELPFUL. EVERYTHING YOU SAY GETS COMPLETELY TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT. >> AND ITS REALLY, IT WOULD BE LIKE ME, TALKING ABOUT WHAT ITS LIKE TO BE AN NBA PLAYER. I WOULDNT KNOW -- IM TERRIBLE AT BASKETBALL. YOURE ABOUT MEDICINE. YOURE ABOUT HEALTH. YOURE ABOUT STUDYING THAT. THESE QUESTIONS ABOUT CHINA, I MEAN, THATS UP TO THE POLITICIANS TO SORT THROUGH. THATS UP TO THE POLITICIANS TO FIGURE OUT. IT MAY NOT BE IN THE BEST INTEREST OF CHINAS LEADERS FOR THIS TO COME OUT. IT CERTAINLY, THOUGH, IT IS CERTAINLY IN THE BEST INTERESTS OF THE CHINESE PEOPLE AND ALSO, IM SURE A LOT OF MEDICAL DOCTORS OVER THERE WANT THAT TO HAPPEN AS WELL. I JUST WANT TO -- LETS JUST BE VERY CLEAR ABOUT THIS, BECAUSE PEOPLE LOVE WRITING STORIES ABOUT HOW THIS HAS CHANGED AND THEY GO FROM LAST SUMMER, A LOT OF PEOPLE ON MAIN STREET MEDIA WENT AFTER TOM COTTON FOR SUGGESTING THAT IT COULD HAVE COME FROM A LAB TO THIS SUMMER. NOW PEOPLE ARE GOING AFTER YOU, ACTING AS IF WE ALL KNOW FOR CERTAIN IT CAME OUT OF A LAB. THE TRUTH IS, WE ARE STILL LOOKING THROUGH A GLASS DARKLY, BECAUSE WE JUST DONT HAVE THE DATA. WE JUST DONT HAVE THE INFORMATION. AND UNTIL WE HAVE THAT, DOCTOR, WERE NOT GOING TO KNOW, ARE WE? >> JOE, THATS JUST WHAT I FINISHED TALKING TO WILLIE ABOUT. >> IM SORRY, I WAS ACTUALLY, PRACTICING MY JUMP SHOT. >> HE WAS ON TWITTER. SO GO AHEAD. NO, I WAS TRYING TO JUST KIND OF CLARIFY IT FOR SOME OF OUR VIEWERS. SOMETIMES I REPEAT MYSELF. >> JOE, IM SORRY, I WASNT TRYING TO BE FACETIOUS, BAAUT THATS WHAT I WAS SAYING, THATS WHAT PEOPLE NEED TO DO IS KEEP AN OPEN MIND. WHEN PEOPLE SAY, IT LIKELY IS A JUMP OF SPECIES, BECAUSE HISTORICALLY THAT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME. DO WE KNOW, ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN? UNTIL YOU NAIL IT DOWN OF SHOWING A LINK, AND BECAUSE YOU HAVENT FOUND IT DOESNT MEAN ITS NOT THERE. YOU NEED TO KEEP LOOKING FOR THE LINK AND YOU NEED TO KEEP LOOKING FOR EVIDENCE THAT ITS SOMETHING ELSE LIKE A LAB LEAK. THOSE ARE OPEN POSSIBILITIES. WE MAY NOT EVER FIND OUT WHAT THAT IS. BUT WHAT IS NOT HELPFUL IS THAT VERY ACCUSATORY, PEJORATIVE NATURE OF IT, AS OPPOSED TO KEEPING TRULY AN OPEN MIND. >> RIGHT. >> SO LETS TALK ABOUT THIS SUMMER. WE HAD JOE BIDEN TALKING ABOUT THE SUMMER TO HAVE FREEDOM. WHATS THE SUMMER LOOKING LIKE FOR YOU? WHATS THE FALL LOOKING LIKE? HOW IS THE UNITED STATES DOING? >> WERE DOING WELL. IF YOU LOOK AT THE NUMBERS, JOE, THAT YOU LOOK AT WHATS CALLED THE WEEKLY AVERAGE ON A DAILY BASIS, WEVE GONE FROM SEVERAL WEEKS, MONTHS AGO TO 60,000 A DAY, 50, 40, 30, AND NOW WERE BELOW 20. IS ITS GOING IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION. IF WE REACH THE GOAL OF 70% AND EVEN MORE, HOPEFULLY, OF INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE ADULTS TO GET AT LEAST ONE DOSE BY THE FOURTH OF JULY, THAT WOULD BE VERY GOOD. THE ONE THING THAT I AM CONCERNED ABOUT IS BECAUSE THINGS LOOK GOOD AND YOU LOOK AT THAT CHART OF THE CASES COMING DOWN, THAT PEOPLE WILL PULL BACK ON GETTING VACCINATED AND EVEN THOUGH WERE DOING VERY WELL WITH VACCINES, WE DONT WANT TO DECLARE VICTORY PREMATURELY. WE REALLY WANT TO NAIL THIS, JOE. WE DONT WANT TO SAY, WELL, THE CASES ARE COMING DOWN, WE DONT NEED TO GET VACCINATED. YOU NEED TO VACCINATE AS MANY PEOPLE AS YOU POSSIBLY IF YOU REALLY WANT TO CRUSH THIS. >> AROUND THE WORLD. DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR COMING ON THE SHOW. >> THANKS SO MUCH, DR. FAUCI. >>> COMING UP, MY EXCLUSIVE SIT-DOWN INTERVIEW WITH THE SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE, NANCY PELOSI, ONE OF THE REMARKABLE
