Joe Rogan Experience #2117 - Ray Kurzweil

Joe Rogan podcast check it out The Joe Rogan Experience Train by day Joe Rogan podcast by night all day good to see you sir great to see you I was telling you before I'm admiring your suspenders and you told me you have How many pairs of these things 30 of them yeah how did you I wear them every day do you really every day why why do you like suspenders uh practicality thing no it's uh expresses my personality and different ones have different uh different personalities that express how I feel that day so I see so it's in just another style Point yeah see the reason why I was asking you don't see any uh hand painted suspenders have you ever seen one uh I don't know I would have not noticed I only noticed because you were here I'm not really a suspender of fishing a yeah but the reason why I'm asking is because you're you know basically a technologist I mean you know a lot about technology when you would think that suspenders are kind of outdated Tech uh well people like them clearly yeah and I'm surprised I haven't caught on but you have to have somebody who can actually paint them I mean these are these are hand painted suspens so the ones that you have these are right here these are hand painted yeah interesting okay so that's part of it so you're wearing art exactly got it so uh and art is part of technology I mean we're using technology to create art now so that's true and it's in fact the very first I mean I've been now in uh AI for 61 years which is actually a record uh and the first thing I did was create something that could uh uh write music writing music now but with AI is a is a major field today but this was actually the first time this that had ever been done yeah that was one of your many inventions that was the first one yeah so when you why did you go about doing that what was your desire to create artificial intelligence music well my father was a musician and I felt this would be a good way to Rel relate to him and he actually worked with me on it um and you could feed in music like it could feed in let's say Mozart or chopan and it would figure out how they created Melodies and then write Melodies in the same style so you could actually tell this is Mozart this is chopan uh wasn't as good but uh it's the first time that that that had been done done it wasn't as good then is it what are what are the capabilities now because now they can do some pretty extraordinary things yeah it's still not uh up to what humans can do but it's getting there and it's actually uh it's Pleasant to listen to we still have a while to do art both art music so on um well one of the main arguments against AI art comes from actual artists who are upset that what essentially they're doing is they're like you could say write uh draw a paint um create a painting in the style of Frank fretta for instance and what it would be would be they would take all of fretta's work that he's ever done which is all documented on the internet and then you create an image that's representative of that so you're essentially in one way or another you're you're kind of taking from the art right but it's not quite as as good it will be as good I mean we I think we'll match Human Experience by 2029 that's been my idea uh it's not it's not as good which is the best image generator right now Jamie pull one up it's they they really changed almost from day to day right now but like mid Journey was the most popular one at first and then Dolly I think is a really good one too mid journey is incredibly impressive incredibly impressive Graphics I've seen some of the mid Journey stuff it's just it's mind-blowing um still not quite as good but boy it's so much better than it was 5 years ago that's what's scary yeah it's so quick I mean it's never going to reach its limit we're not going to get their point okay this is how good it's going to be it's going to keep getting better um and what would that look like if it if it can get to a certain point it will far exceed what human creativity is capable of yes I mean I mean when we reach uh the ability of humans it's not going to just match one human it's going to match all humans and it's going to do everything that any human can do uh if it's playing a game uh like go it's going to play it better than any human right well that's already been proven right that they theyve invented moves ai's invented moves that have now been implemented by humans right in a in a very complex game that they never thought that AI was going to be able to be because it requires so much creativity right uh arth though we're not quite there but we will be there and by 2029 uh it will match any person that's it 2029 that's just a few years away this yeah well I'm actually considered conservative people think that will happen like next year the year after but uh I actually said that in 1999 I said we would uh match any person by 2029 so 30 years people thought that was totally crazy uh and in fact Stanford had a uh a conference they invited several hundred people from around the world to talk about my prediction and people came in and they and people thought that this would happen but not by 2029 they thought it would take a hundred years yeah I've heard that I've heard that but I think people are amending those uh is it because human beings have a very difficult time grasping the concept of exponential growth that's exactly right um in fact still economists have a linear View and if you say well it's going to grow exponentially say yeah but maybe 2% a year um it actually doubles in 14 years uh and I I brought a chart I can show you that really illustrates this is this chart available online so we could show people yeah it's in the book but is it available online that chart where jimy can pull it up and someone could see it just so the folks watching the podcast could see it too but I can just hold it up to the camera pull it up on pictures they sent what's it called What's the title of it uh it says uh price performance of computation 1939 to 2023 that you have it okay great Jam has it yeah this The Climb is insane it's like uh San what's interesting is that that's an exponential curve and a straight line represents exponential growth and that's an absolute straight line for 80 years uh the very first point uh this is the speed of computers it was 0. 07 calculations per second per constant dollar the last point is 35 billion calculations per second so that's a 20 quadrillion fold increase in those 80 years but the the speed with which it it gained is is actually the same throughout the entire 80 years because if it was sometimes better and sometimes worse this curve would uh would bend it would bend up bend down it's really very much a straight line uh so the speed with which we increased it was the same regardless of the technology used and the technology was radically different at the beginning versus the end and yet it it it increased the speed exactly the same for 80 years in fact the first 40 years nobody even knew this was happening so it's not like somebody was in charge and saying okay next year we have to get to here and people would try to match that we didn't even know this was happening for 40 years 40 years later I noticed this for various reasons I predicted it would stay the same the same speed increase each year which which it has in fact we just put the last do like two weeks ago and it's exactly where it should be so te technology and computation is certainly Prime form of Technology uh increases at the same speed and this goes through War and Peace you might say well maybe it's greater during war no it's exactly the same you can't tell when there's war or peace or or anything else on here it just matches uh from one type of technology to the next uh and it's also true of other things like uh for example getting energy from the Sun uh that's also exponential it's also just like this uh it's increased um we we now are getting uh about a thousand times as much uh energy from the Sun that we did 20 years ago because the implementation of solar panels and the like yeah has the the function of it increased exponentially as well the function of because what I had understood was that there was a bottleneck in the technology as far as how much you could extract from the Sun from those panels no not at all no I mean it's it's increased uh 99.7% since we started right uh and it's it does the same every year it's an exponential curve and if if you look at the curve we'll be getting 100% of all the energy we need in 10 years the person who told me that was Elon and Elon was telling me that this is the reason why you can't have a fully solar powerered electric car because it's not capable of absorbing that much from the Sun with a small panel like that he said there's a physical limitation in the panel size no I mean it's increased 99.7% since we started since what year uh this about um 35 years ago 35 years ago and 99% 99% of the ability of it as well as the expansion of use um I mean you might have to store it we're also making exponential gains in storage of electricity right Battery Technology um so you don't have to get it all from a solar panel that fits in a car well the the concept was like could you make a solar paneled car a car that has solar panels on the roof and would that that be enough to power the car and he said no he said it's just not really there yet right it's not there yet but it it will be there in 10 years you think so yeah he he seemed to doubt that he thought that there's a certain limitation of the amount of energy you can get from the Sun period how much it gives out and how much those solar panels can absorb well you're not going to be able to get it all from the solar panel that fits in a car you're going to have to store some of that energy right would the so you wouldn't just be able to dve indefinitely on solar power yeah that was what he was saying so but you can obviously power a house and especially if you have a roof like Tesla has those solar pounded roofs now but you can also store the energy for a car um I mean we're we're going to go go to all renewable energy wind and and and Sun uh within 10 years including our ability to store the energy all renewable in 10 years so what are they going to do with all these nuclear plants and coal powered plants and all these that that's completely unnecessary people say we need uh nuclear power which we don't I you can get it all from the Sun and and wind uh within 10 years so in 10 years you'd be able to power Los Angeles with sun and wind yes really yeah I I was not aware that we were anywhere near that kind of timeline well that's because people are not taking into account exponential growth so the exponential growth also of the grid because just to pull the amount of power that you would need to charge you know x amount of million if everyone has an electric vehicle by 2035 let's say then just the amount of change you would need on the grid would be pretty substantial well we're making exponential gains on that as well are we yeah yeah I wasn't aware um I i' I had this uh impression that there was problem with that and especially in Los Angeles they they've actually asked people at certain times when it's hot out to not charge your car they're not looking at the future that's true now but it's growing exponentially in every in every field of Technology then essentially yeah um is the bottleneck a Battery Technology and how how close are they to solving some of these problems with like conflict minerals and the things that we need in order to power these batteries uh I mean our ability to store energy is also growing exponentially so putting all that together uh will be able to power everything we need within 10 years wow most people don't think that so you're you're you're thinking that based on this idea that people have a Lia imagine that computation would grow like this and it's just continuing to do that um and so we have large language models for example no one expected that to happen like five years ago right and we had them two years ago but they didn't work very well so it began a little less than two years ago that we could actually do large language models uh and and that was very much a surprise to everybody uh so that that's probably the primary example of exponential growth we had Sam Alman on one of the things that he and I were talking about was that AI figured out a way to lie that they used AI to go through a capture system and the AI told the system that it was vision impaired which is not technically a lie but it used it to bypass are you a robot well we don't know now is for large language models to say they don't know something so you ask it a question and if that the answer to that question is not in the system it still comes up with an answer so it'll look at everything and give you its best answer and if the the best answer is not there it still gives you an answer but that's uh considered hallucination and we know hallucination yeah that's what it's called really so AI hallucination so they cannot be wrong they have to be we're actually working on being able to tell if it doesn't know something so if you ask it something and say oh I I don't know that right now it can't do that oh wow that's interesting so it it gives you some answer um and if the answer is not there it just like makes something up it's the best answer but the best answer isn't very good because it doesn't know the answer and the way to fix hallucinations is to actually give it more capabilities to memorize things and and give it more information so it knows the answer to it if you if you tell uh an answer to a question it will remember that and give you that correct answer uh but these models are not we don't know everything and it has to we have to be able to scan an answer to every single question uh which we can't quite do it' be actually better if it could actually answer well yeah I don't know that right like in particular like say when it comes to um exploration of the universe if there's a certain amount of I mean vast amount of the universe we have not explored so if it has to answer questions about that it would just come up with an answer right it'll just come up with an answer which will likely be wrong that's interesting but that that would be a real problem if someone was counting on the AI to have a solution for something too soon right right they they don't know everything uh search engines actually know are pretty well vetted and if it actually answers something it'll it's usually correct um unless it's curated but large language models don't have that capability uh so it' be good actually if they knew that they were wrong that' also tell us what we have to fix what about the the idea that AI models are influenced by ideology that AI models have been programmed with certain ideologies I mean they do learn from people yeah and people have ideologies some of which are some of which are not correct and and that's a large way in which uh it will make things up because it's learning from people um right so right now uh if somebody has access to a good uh search engine uh they will check before they actually answer something with a search engine to make sure that it's correct cuz search intentions are generally uh much more accurate generally right when it comes to this idea that people enter information into a computer and then the computer relies on that ideology do you anticipate that with artificial general intelligence that will be agnostic to ideology that'll be able to reach a point where instead of deciding things based on social norms or whatever the culture is accepted currently that would look at things more objectively and rationally well eventually eventually but we still call it artificial general intelligence even if it didn't do that and people certainly do are influenced uh by uh whatever their people that they respect uh feel is correct um and will be as influenced by as people are um and we'll still call it artificial general intelligence MH um we are starting to check uh what large language models come up with with search engines and that's actually making them more correct uh but we have to actually continue on this curve we need more data to be able to store everything this is not enough data to be able to store everything correctly this a large amounts of of the of large language models for which we don't have uh storage for the data so that's what's holding us back is data and storage yeah we also have to have the correct storage um so so that's uh really where the effort is going to be able to get rid of these hallucinations that's a fun thing to say hallucinations in terms of artificial intelligence well we usually come up with wrong things like large language models is not really the correct way to to talk about this it does know language but there's a lot of other things it knows uh we're using them now to come up with um uh medicines uh for example uh the medna vaccine we wrote down every possible uh uh type of medicine that might uh be uh that might work it was actually several billion mRNA sequences and we then tested them all uh and did that in two two days so it actually came up with um tested several billion and decided on it in two days we then tested it with people we'll be able to overcome that as well because we'll be able to test it with machines um but we was we actually did test it with people for 10 months those was still a record so for for machines when they start testing medications with machines how will they audit that so the concept will be that you do you take into account biological variability all the different factors that would lead to a person to have an adverse reaction to a certain compound and then you program All the known data about how things interact with the body right I mean you need to be able to simulate all the different possibilities and then and then come up with like a number of how many people will be adversely affected by something that's one of the things you would look at and then efficacy based on age but that but that could be done literally in a matter of days rather than years right um but the question would be like who's in charge of that data and like how does that how does it get resolved and what if if if artificial intelligence is still prone to hallucinations and they start using those hallucinations to justify medications that could be a bit of an issue especially if it's controlled by a corporation that wants to make a lot of money well that well that's the issue to be able to do it correctly so we'll have to come there's going to have to be a point in time where we all decide that artificial intelligence has reached this place where we can trust it implicitly right well that's that's why they take now the the leading candidate and actually test it with people uh but we'll be able to get rid of the testing with people uh once we can have Reliance on the simulation uh so we've got to make the simulations correct uh um but like uh right now we actually tested with people and that takes well it took 10 months in this case when you look at artificial intelligence and you look at the expansion of it and the the ultimate place that it will eventually be what what do you see happening inside of our lifetime like inside of 20 years like what what kind of revolutionary changes on society would this have well one thing I I uh feel well happen in 5 years by 2029 uh is we reach longevity escape velocity so right now you go through a year and you use up a year of your longevity you're then a year older however we do have scientific progress and we're making coming up with new cures for diseases and so on right now you're getting back about four months so you lose a year but through scientific progress you're getting back four months so you're only losing eight months however the scientific progress is progressing exponentially and by 2029 you'll get back a full year so you lose a year but you get back a year and you pretty much stay in the same place so by 2029 you'll be static and past 2029 you'll actually get back more than a year uh you'll get back can I be a baby again uh no but you you'll in terms of your longevity you'll get back more than a year right so you'll be able to go essentially go back in biological age lengthening of the telome changing elasticity of the skin eventually muscle you'll be able to do that um it doesn't guarantee you living forever I mean you could have a 10-year-old and you could compute okay he's got many decades of longevity uh and he could die tomorrow so sure um so but overall there be an expansion of the uh that most people die and that's something that we're going to get and it's also using the same uh type of logic as large language models but that's not language you're actually creating medications so we should call that large event models not large language models because it's not just dealing with language it's dealing with all kinds of things when I talked to you 10 years ago you were telling me about this uh pretty extensive supplement routine that you're on are you still well I'm try I'm trying to get to the point where we have uh longevity escape velocity in good shape right and yes I do follow that uh I take maybe 80 pills a day and wow some uh injections and so on so yes peptides M so so far it works um and uh have you ever ever gone off of it to see what you feel like normally no why do that right yeah I mean it seems to work and there there's evidence behind it how old are you now uh 70 76 you look good you look good for 76 man that's great so it's doing something yeah I I think it's it's working and so your goal is to get to that point where they start doing the you live a year you stay static and then eventually get back to youthfulness right and it's not that far off if you're diligent I think we'll get there by 2029 now not everybody's diligent so right of course now past that um this is for Life Extension which is great but what about how AI is going to change society yes well that that's a very big issue and it's already doing lots of things uh make some people uncomfortable what we're actually doing is increasing our intelligence I mean right now you have a brain and it has different modules in it that to deal with different things but really uh it's able to connect one concept to another concept and that's what your brain does uh we can actually increase that by for example carrying around a phone this has Connections in it uh it's a little little bit of a hassle to use if I ask you to do something you got to kind of mess with it actually be good if this actually listened to your conversation oh it does and without saying anything you're just talking and it says oh the name of that actress is so and so and um yeah but then it's a busy body it's like interfering with your life talking to you all the time well there's ways of dealing with that too you shut it off but we don't we don't so we haven't done that yet uh but uh that's a way of expanding your connections um what a large language model does it has Connections in it as well and in fact it's getting now to to a point that's getting fairly comparable to the human brain we have about a trillion Connections in our brain uh things like the top model from Google or gp4 they have about 400 billion uh connections approximately uh they'll be at a trillion probably within a year that's pretty comparable to what the human brain does uh eventually it'll go beyond that uh and we'll have access to that so it's basically making a smarter so if if you have the ability to be smarter um that that's something that's positive really um I mean if if we were like mice today um and we had the opportunity to become like humans we wouldn't object to that in fact we are humans and we don't object to that and we used to be shrews um and this is going to basically make us smarter uh eventually we'll be much smarter than we are today and and that's a positive thing we'll be able to do things that are to today that we find bothersome in a way that's much more palatable the idea of us getting smarter sounds great great it'd be great to be smarter but right but people object to that because it's it's like competition in what way well I mean Google has I don't know 60 70,000 programmers and how many programmers are exist in the world how much longer is that going to be a viable career because uh large language models already can code yeah not quite as good as a real expert coder uh but H how long is that going to be right it's not it's not going to be a 100 years it's going to be few years um so people see it as competition I have a slightly different view of that I see these things uh is actually adding to our own intelligence and we're merging with these kinds of computers and making ourselves smarter by merging with it and eventually it'll go inside our brain and be able to make us smarter instantly uh just like we have had more connections inside our own brain well I think people have reservations always when it comes to Great change and this is probably the greatest change the the greatest change we've ever experienced in our lifetimes for sure has been the internet and this will make that look like nothing it'll it'll change everything and it seems inevitable um I understand that people are upset about it but it just seems like what human beings were sort of designed to do right we're the only animal that actually creates technology yeah and it's a combination of our brain and something else which is our thumb so I I can imagine something oh if I take that you can from a tree I could create a a tool with it uh other animals have actually a bigger brain like the whale Dolphins uh Dolphins um elephants they have a larger brain than we do but they don't have something equivalent to the thumb right monkey has thing that looks like the thumb but it's actually an inch down and it doesn't actually work very well so they can actually create a tool but they don't create a tool that's powerful enough to create the next tool so we're actually able to use our tools and create something that's that much more significant um so we can create tools and that's really part of who we are um um it makes us that much more intelligent and that's a good thing uh I mean here's so here's us personal income per capita so this is the average amount that we make uh per person in constant dollars and right here it's on the screen do we make a lot more money but things cost a lot more money too right no this this is constant dollars constant dollars in relation to the inflation yeah so this does not show you inflation these are constant dollars and so we're actually making that much more each year on average so if you doesn't take into account inflation correct so it's not taking into account the rise of cost of things no it is taking it is taking the oh it is okay uh so we're making that much more in constant dollars uh if you look over the past 100 years we've made about 10 times as much I wonder if there's a similar chart about consumerism like just about material possessions I wonder if like how much more we're purchasing and and creating I've always felt like that's one of the things things that materialism is a one of those instincts that human beings sort of uh look down upon and uh this aimless pursuit of buying things but I feel like that motivates technology because the the constant need for the newest greatest thing is one of the things that fuels the creation and innovation of new things but if you were to go back a 100 years you'd be very unhappy oh yeah because you wouldn't have I mean you wouldn't have a computer for example you wouldn't have anything you would have most things you've grown accustomed to yeah I mean um unless you also we we didn't live very long uh medical advancements at for average uh life was 48 years in 1900 it's 35 years in 1800 right go back 1,00 years it was 20 years years um that takes into account child mortality too though right but it's also injuries death some people did live long like there was people that lived back then if nothing happened to you you did live to be 80 like a normal person but uh that's was actually very rare I mean most things happen to people most people by the time you get to 80 you've had at least one hospital visit something's gone wrong broken arm broken this broken that uh it was very rare to make it to 80 right uh 200 years ago right but the human body was physically capable of doing it right well our human body can go on forever if you if you fix things properly um there's nothing in our body that that means that you have to die at 100 or even 120 uh we can go on really indefinitely um well that's the groundbreaking work today right they're treating disease or excuse me age as is as it's a as if it is a disease not just an inevitable consequence and our FDA doesn't accept that but they're actually beginning to accept it now why do they get older yeah exactly they're forced into it um the the concept of art artificial general intelligence scares a lot of people also because of Hollywood right because of the Terminator films and things along those lines like how far away are we do you think from actual artificial humans or will we ever get there will we integrate before that takes place I mean all of this additional intelligence they were creating uh is something that we use and it's just like it it came with us so we're actually making ourselves more intelligent uh and ultimately that's a good thing and if we have it and then we say well gee we don't really like this let's take it away people would never accept that they may be against uh the the idea of in general intelligence but once they get it nobody wants to give that up and and it it will be beneficial uh the the blood light started 200 years ago because the cotton Jenny come out and all these people that were making money with the cotton Jenny uh were against it and they would actually destroy these machines at night um and they said Gee if this keeps going all jobs are going to go away and indeed people using cotton Jenny to create more wealth that that that did go away but we actually made more money because we created things that didn't exist then we didn't have anything like electronics for example um and as as we can actually see we make 10 times as much in constant dollars as we did a 100 years ago um and if you were to ask well what are people going to be doing you couldn't answer it because we didn't understand right the internet for example and there's probably some technologies down the pipe that are going to have a similar impact exactly and they're going to extend they're going to extend life for example but are they going to create life well we know how to create life um we we don't well that's an interesting question um what do you mean by create life what I think is that human beings are some sort of a biological caterpillar that makes a cocoon that gives birth to an electronic butterfly I think we are creating a life form and that we're merely conduits for this thing and that all of our instincts and ego and emotions and all these things feed into it materialism feeds into it we keep buying and keep innovating and Technology keeps increasing exponentially and eventually it's going to be artificial intelligence and artificial intelligence is going to create better artificial intelligence and a form of being that has no limitations in terms of what's capable of doing and capable of traveling anywhere not having any biological limitations in terms but that's going to be ourselves I mean we're going to be able to create life uh that is like humans but far greater than we are today with an integration of Technology yeah if we choose to go that route but that's the prediction that you have that we will go that route like a neuralink type deal something along those lines that right so I I don't see it this competition like the things are going to no I don't think it's competition I well it will seem like that I mean if you have a job doing coding right and suddenly they don't really want you anymore because they can do coding with a large language model it's going to feel like it's competition well there's an issue now with films um Tyler Perry who owns an he was building an $800 million television studio and he stopped production when he saw what is it called sora is that what it's called Jamie yeah he stopped produ when he saw the capabilities of AI to just for creating visuals scenes movies there's there's one that's incredibly impressive it's Tokyo they're walking down the street of Tokyo in the winter so it's it's snowing and they're walking down the street and you look at it you this is insane this looks like a film see if you can find that film cuz it's incredible but would you want to get rid of that get rid of what that capability no no I I don't want to get rid of the capability right but but people do want to get people that make movies people that that actually film things with cameras and use actors are going to be very upset so this this is all fake which is insane beautiful snowy Tokyo city is bustling the camera moves through the through the bustling City street following several people enjoying the beautiful snowy weather and shopping at nearby stalls gorgeous Sakura pedals are flying through the wind along with snowflakes and this is what you get yeah this is insanely good the variability like just the way people are dressed if you saw this somewhere else look at this A robot's life in a cyberpunk setting if you saw this you would say oh they filmed this but just look at what they're able to do with animation and kids movies and things along those SEL yeah and it's going to get better yeah it's just incredible I mean it's a new art form uh so right there the smoke looks a little little uniform but yeah I mean there's some problems with this but not much yeah and you imagine what it was like 5 years ago and then imagine what it's going to be like 5 years from now absolutely and it's insane we me no one took into consideration the idea that kids are going to be cheating on their school papers using chat GPT but my kids tell me that's a real problem in school now yes uh definitely um so no one saw that coming no one saw this is coming and what we're what we're at now is what chat gbd4 right 4.5 is that what it is well 4.5 is coming 4.5 is coming five is supposed to be the the massive leap uh it'll be a leap just like three to four was a massive leap so yeah but it's going to it's going to continue it's never going to be finished it'll keep going and it will also be able to make better versions of itself correct and yes well we do that I mean technology does that already right but if you scale that out 100 years from now what are you looking at you're looking at a god well it'll be less than 100 years I mean so you're looking at a God in 50 years less than that I mean once we have uh an ability to emulate everything that humans can do and not just one human but all humans yes and that's only like 2029 that's only 5 years from now and then it will make better versions of that so it will probably solve a lot of the problems that we have in terms of energy storage data storage data speeds right computation speeds and also medications for us for for humans yeah wouldn't it be better just Ray just download yourself into this beautiful electronic body why do you want to be biological uh I mean ultimately that's what we're going to be able to do you think that's going to happen yeah so do you think that we'll be able to I mean we'll be able to create I mean the singulari is when we multiply our intelligence a millionfold and that's 2045 so that's not that long from now that's like 20 years from now right um and and therefore most of your intelligence will be uh handled by the computer part of ourselves um the only thing that won't be captured is what comes with our body originally will ultimately be able to do that as well it'll take a little longer but we'll be able to actually capture what comes with our normal body uh and be able to re recreate that so that also has to do with uh how long we live because if if everything is backed up I mean right now anytime you put anything into a phone or any kind of electronics it's backed up so I mean I could this has a lot of data I could flip it and it ends up in uh a river and we can't capture anymore I can recreate it because it's all backed up and you think that's going to be the case with Consciousness that's going to be the case of our normal uh biological body as well what's to stop someone like Donald Trump from just making a 100,000 versions of himself like if you can back someone up could you duplicate it couldn't you have three or four of them could you have a bunch of them couldn't you live multiple lives yes uh would you be interacting with each other while you're living multiple Lives having consultations about what is St Louis Ray doing well I don't know let's talk to San Francisco Ray San Francisco Ray is talking to flor array uh it's basically a matter of increasing our intelligence and being able to multiply Donald Trump for example that that comes with that do you think there'll be regulations on that to stop people from making a 100,000 versions of themselves that operate a city there'll be lots of regulations there lots of regulations we have already you can't just like create a medication and sell it to people that cures this disease right we have tremendous amount of Regulation sure but we don't really with phones like with your phone you could essentially if you had the money you could make as many copies of that as you wanted yes um there are some regulations we we have we regulate everything but yeah but you're right generally Electronics is doesn't have as much regulation is right and when you get to a certain point we will be Electronics yes yes I mean certainly if we multiply our intelligence a millionfold everything of that additional millionfold of your is it's not regulated right when you think about the the concept of integration and technological integration when do you think that will start taking place and what will be the initial usage of it like what would be the first versions and and what would what would they provide well we we have it now large language models are pretty impressive I me if you look at what they can do about physical integration with the human body like a neuralink type thing right some people feel that we could actually understand what's going on in your brain and actually put things into your brain without actually going into the brain uh with something like neuralink so something that like sits on the outside of your head yeah uh it's not clear to me that if that's feasible or not i' I've been assuming that you have to actually go in now neuralink isn't EX exactly what we want because it's too slow uh and it's actually will do what it's advertised to do like if I actually know some people like this who were active people and they completely lost the ability uh to speak and to understand language and so on um and so they can't actually say anything to you um and we can use something like neuralink to actually uh have them Express something they could think something and then have it be expressed to you right and they're doing that right they had the first patient the first patient that was yeah yeah and apparently that person can move a cursor around on a screen right and therefore you can do anything it's it's fairly slow though MH and neuralink is slow and if you really want to extend your brain you you need to do it at a much faster Pace but isn't that going to increase exponentially as well yes absolutely so how long do you think it'll be before it's implemented where well it's got to be by 245 um um because that's when the singularity exists and we can actually uh multiply our Intelligence on the order of a millionfold now when you say 2045 what is the source of that estimation because we'll be able to uh based actually on on this chart uh and also the increase in uh um the ability of software to also expand uh we'll be able to multiply our intelligence a millionfold uh and we'll be able to uh put that inside the our brain it would be just like it's a part of our brain so this is just following the current graph of progress yeah exactly so if you follow the current graph of progress and if you do understand exponential growth then what we're looking at in 2045 is inevitable right does that concern you at all are you excited about it do you think it's just a thing that is happening and you're a part of it and you're experiencing it I think we'll be enthusiastic about it um I mean imagine if you were to ask a mouse uh would you like to actually be as intelligent as a human right uh it's hard to know what people would say but generally that's a positive thing generally yeah um and that's what it's going to be like we're going to be that much smarter what do you an and once we're there is is someone going to say not I don't really like this I want to be stupid like human beings used to be uh nobody's really going to say that do human beings now say GE I'm really too smart I'd really like to be like a mouse not necessarily but what people do say is that technology is too invasive and that it's too much a part of my life and I'd like to sort of have a bit of a an electronic vacation and separate from it and there's a lot of people that I know that have gone to but but nobody does that I mean nobody becomes uh stupid like we used to be when we were mice uh right but I'm not saying stupid I'm saying some people just like being a human the way humans are now because one of the complications that comes with the integration of technology is what we're seeing now with people massive increases anxiety from social media use being manipulated by algorithms the effect that it has on culture misinformation and disinformation propaganda there's so many different factors that are at play now that make people more anxious and more depressed statistically than ever uh I'm not sure we had more anxiety you're not sure uh uh today than we used to have well we certainly had more when the Mongols were invading we certainly had more anxiety we were worried constantly about war but I think people have a pretty heightened level 8 80 years ago we had 100 million people die in Europe and Asia MH uh from World War II uh we're very concerned about wars today uh and they're terrible but we're not losing millions of people right but we could we most certainly could with what's going on with Israel and Gaza with what's going on with Ukraine and Russia can easily escalate with but it's thousands of people it's not millions of people for now yeah but if it escalates into a hot War where it's involving the entire world what would really cause a tremendous amount of uh danger is something that's not really artificial intelligence it was invented when I was a child which is atomic weapons right I remember uh when I was like five or six we'd actually go outside put our hands behind our back M uh to protect us from a nuclear war yeah drills and actually it seemed to work we're still here so do you remember those uh things they tell kids to get under the desk yes that that's right we went under the desk and put our which is hilarious as if a desk is going to protect you from a nuclear bomb right but that's not uh AI right no but AI appli to nuclear weapons makes them significantly more dangerous and isn't one of the problems with AI is that AI will find a solution to a problem say if you have ai running your military and AI says what you know what do you want me to do and you say well I'd like to take over Taiwan and AI says well this is how to do it and it just implements it with no morals no no thought of any sort of sort of diplomacy or just force right hasn't happened yet because we do have people in charge and the people are enhanced with Ai and AI can actually help us to avoid that kind of problem uh by thinking through the implications of different solutions sure if it has some sort of autonomy but if we get to the point where one superpower has AI artificial general intelligence the other one doesn't how much of a significant Advantage would that be I mean I I do think there are problems basically there's problems with intelligence and we'd like to say stupid um but actually it's better to be intelligent uh I I believe it's better to be to have sure right but my question was if so if there's a race to achieve AGI how how close is this race is it neck and neck is it I mean who's at the lead and how much capital is being put into these companies that are at the lead and whoever achieves it first if that is under the control of a government it's completely dependent upon what are the morals and ethics of that government what what's the Constitution what if it happens in China what if it happens in Russia what if it happens somewhere other than the United States and even if it does happen in the United States who's controlling it I mean the knowledge of how to create these things is pretty widespread it's it's not like somebody can just uh capitalize on a way to do it and nobody else understands it uh knowledge of how to create a large language model or uh how to create the the uh type of chips that would enable you to create this is actually pretty widespread mhm um so do you think essentially the competition is pretty even in all the countries currently and also probably Espionage there's Espionage where they're stealing information and sharing information and selling information and and in terms of differences uh the United States actually has uh Superior uh AI compared to other places well that's good for us um I mean we're actually way ahead of China I would say right but China has a way of figuring out what we're doing at copy it they pretty good at that they have been yeah yeah um so do you have any concern whatsoever in the idea that AI gets in the hands of the wrong people so when it first gets implemented that's the big big problem is before it exists before artificial general intelligence really exists it doesn't and then it does and who has it and then once it does can that AGI stop other people from getting it can you programming it program it to make sure can you sabotage grids can you do whatever you can to take down the internet in these opposing places could you inject their computations with viruses what what could you do to stop other people from getting to where you're at if you have an an infinitely Superior intelligence uh first if that's what your goal is then yes you could do that are you worried about that at all do you like yes I I worry about it what is your main worry when you worry about the implementation of artificial intelligence what's your main worry I mean I'm worried if people who have a destructive uh idea of H how to use these capabilities get into control right um and that could happen and I've got a chapter in the book about perils uh that are like what we're talking about um and what do you think that could look like if the wrong people got a hold this technology well you know if if you look at actually who controls Atomic weapons which is not AI uh it's some of the worst people in the world right um and if you were to ask people right after we used two Atomic weapons within a week uh 80 years ago what what's the likelihood that we're going to go another 80 years uh and not not have that happen again everybody would say zero right right but it actually has happened shockingly yeah yeah uh and I think there's actually some message there um is sure destruction but the thing is would artificial general intelligence but that has not happened right it has not happen yet but would artificial general intelligence in the control of the wrong people negate that mutually assured destruction that keeps people from doing things obviously we did drop bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki right we did we did indiscriminantly Kill who knows how many hundreds of thousands of people with those weapons we did it and if human beings were capable of doing it because no one else had it if artificial general intelligence reaches that sentient level and is in control of the wrong people what's to stop them from doing there's no mutually assur destruction if you're the one who's got it you're the only one who's got it and you possibly my concern is that whoever gets it could possibly stop it from being spread everywhere else and and control it completely and then you're looking at a completely dystopian world right so that's if you ask me what I'm concerned about it's along those lines along those lines yeah that's what because that's what I always want to get out of you guys because there's so many people that are um rightfully so so high on this technology and the possibilities for enhancing our lives but the concern that a lot of people have is that at what cost and what are we signing up for right but I mean if we want to for example live indefinitely this is what we need to do we we can't do what if you're denying yourself Heaven you ever thought of that possibility I know that's a ridiculous abstract concept but if heaven is real if the idea of the afterlife is real and it's a the next level of existence and you're constantly going through these cycles of Life what if you're stepping in and artificially denying that that's hard to imagine it is hard to imagine but so is life so is the universe itself so is the big bang my father H my father died when I was 22 uh so that's more than 50 60 years ago um and uh it's hard and he was actually a great musician and he great created fantastic music but he hasn't done that since he died um and there's nothing that exists this that is at all creative uh based on him we have his memories uh actually created a large language model that represented him I can actually talk to him you do that now yeah yeah it's it's in the book um when you do that have you thought about implementing some sort of a SORA type deal where you're talking to him well you can do that now with language right but mean physically like looking at him like you're in a zoom call with him that's a little bit in the future to be able to actually capture the way he looks um but that's also feasible it seems pretty feasible yeah and certainly it could be something representative of what he looks based on photographs that you have right so things like that is a reason to continue so that we can create that and create our own ability to uh continue to exist you talk to people and they say well I don't really want to live past 90 or whatever 100 um but in my mind if you don't exist uh there's nothing for you to experience that's true in this Dimension my my thought on that people saying that I don't want to live past 90 it's like uh okay are you alive now do you like being alive now what's the difference between now and 90 um is it just a number or is it a deterioration of your physical body and how much how much effort have you put into mitigating the deterioration of your natural body so that you can enjoy life now exactly and we've actually seen who who would want to take their lives people do take their lives uh if they are experiencing something that's miserable right if they're suffering physically emotionally mentally spiritually uh and they just cannot stand the way life uh is is carrying on then they want to take their lives uh otherwise people don't um if if they're enjoying their lives they continue and people say I I don't want to live past a 100 but then when they get to be you know 99.9 uh they don't want to uh disappear unless they're suffering unless they're suffering that's what's interesting about the positive aspects of AI once we can manipulate human neurochemistry to the point where we figure out what is causing Great Depression what is causing anxiety what is causing a lot of these schizophrenic uh people and we definitely had that before we didn't have the terms we didn't understand schizophrenia but people definitely had it for sure but what if we get to a point where we can mitigate that with technology where we can say this is what's going on that's why we're continuing right that I was saying that's a good thing that's a positive aspect of this technology and think about also profoundly profoundly think about how many people do take their lives and with this technology would not just live happily but also be productive and also contribute to whatever Society is is doing that's why we're carrying on with this yes but in order to do that we do have to overcome some of the problems that you've articulated yeah um I think what a lot of people are terrified of is that these people that are creating this technology um they're being there's there's oversight but it's oversight by people that don't necessarily understand it the way the people that are creating it and they don't know what guard rails are in place how safe is this especially when it's implemented with some sort of weapons technology you know or some sort of a military application especially a military military application that can be insanely profitable and the motivations behind utilizing that are that profit and then then we do horrible things and somehow or another justify it I mean I think democracy is actually an important issue here because democratic nations tend not to go to war with each other uh and I mean you look at the way we're uh handling uh military technology uh if everybody was a democracy I think there'd be much less war as long as it's a legitimate democracy that's not controlled by money right as long as it's a legitimate democracy that's not controlled by the military industrial complex or the pharmaceutical industry or whoever puts the people that are in elected places who puts them in there how do they get funded well what do they represent once they get in there are they there for the will of the people they there for their own career do they bypass the safety and the future of the people for their own personal gain which we've seen politicians do there's certain problems with every system that involves human beings this is another thing that technology May able to do one of the things if you think about the worst attributes of of humans um whether it's a war you know one crime some of the horrible things that human beings are capable of a magag that technology can find what causes those thoughts and behaviors in human beings and mitigate them you know I've joked around about this but it's if we came up with something that would Elevate dopamine just 300% worldwide there would be no more war it'd be over everybody would be loving everybody we we'd be interacting with each other well that's the point of doing this but there would also be no sad songs well um you need some blues in your life need a little bit of that too or do we maybe we don't maybe that's just a byproduct of our monkey minds and that one day we'll surpass that and get to this per point of Enlightenment Enlightenment seems possible without right technological innovation but maybe not I've never really met a truly enlightened person I've met some people that are pretty close but if you could get there with technology if technology just completely elevated the human consciousness to the point where all of our conf just for starters if you could actually live longer quite aside from the motivations of people most people die not because of people's motivations but because our bodies just won't last that long right uh and and a lot of people say you know I don't want to live longer which makes no sense to me why why would you want to disappear uh uh and and not be able to have any kind of experiences well I think some people don't think you're disappearing I mean there is a leld thought in many cultures that this life is but one step and that there is an afterlife and maybe that exists to comfort us because we deal with existential angst and the the reality of our own inevitable demise or maybe it's a function of Consciousness being something that's we don't truly understand and what you are is a soul contained in a body and that we we have a very primitive understanding of the existence of life itself and of the existence of everything yeah well well I guess that makes sense uh but I don't really accept it I mean if there's no evidence right yeah right but but is it there's no evidence because we're not capable of determining it yet and understanding it or is it just because it doesn't exist that's that that's the real question it's like is this it is this everything or is this merely a stage and are we monkeying with that stage by interfering interfering with the process of life and death well it makes sense yeah but I don't really see the evidence for that I could see from your perspective I don't see the evidence of it either but it's a concept that is not look just when you start talking to string theorists and they start talking about things existing and not existing at the same time are you know particles in superp position like you're talking about magic you're talking about like something that's impossible to wrap your head around even just the structure of an atom like what what is that what's in there nothing what's what how much of it is space the the the entire existence of everything in the universe seems preposterous but it's all real and we only have a limited grasp of understanding of what this is really all about and what processes are really in place right but if you look at people's uh perspective if somebody gets disease and kind of known they could only live like another six months people are not happy with that no well they're scared they're scared to die it's a natural human instinct that's what kept us alive for all these hundreds of millions of years yes but very few people would be happy with that and if they if you then had something gee we have this new device you could take this and you won't die right almost everybody would do that sure but would they appreciate life if they knew it had no end would it be the same thing or would it be like a lottery winner just goes nuts and spends all their money and loses their marbles because they can't believe they can't die well uh first of all not guaranteed to live forever sure you can get in an accident you something can happen you get injured but if we get to a point where you have automated cars that significantly reduce the amount of automobile accidents well also we can back up everything everything in in our physical body as well as how far away are we from that that that idea of do I mean we don't really truly understand what Consciousness is correct right so how would we be able to manipulate it or or duplicate it to the point where you're putting it inside of some kind of a computation device well we we know to be able to create uh computation that that matches what a re our brain does that's what we're doing with these large language models right and we're actually very close now to what uh our brain can do with these large language model models and will'll be there like within a year um and and we can back up the electronic version and we'll get to the point where we can back up uh what our brain normally does so we'll be able to actually back that up as well we'll be able to detect what it is and back that up as uh just like our computers so we create it in the form of an artificial version of everything that it is to be a human being right exactly in terms of emotions love excitement and that's going to happen over the next 20 years it's not thousand years but will will that be a person I mean or will be some sort of a zombie like like what what motivations will it have if you can take human consciousness and duplicate it much like you could duplicate your phone and you make this new thing what does that thing feel like does that thing live in hell like what is that what is that experience like for that that what about large language models do they really exist can they actually I mean they can talk they certainly do but would you want to be one uh are we different than that than that yeah we're people we shake hands I give you a hug you pet my dog you listen to music you have you we be able to do all of that as well right but will you want to will you even care the thing is like a lot of what gives us joy in life is biological motivations there's human reward systems that are put in place that allow us to it's going to be part of who we are right be just like a person and we'll also have our physical body as well and that'll also be able to be backed up and we'll be doing the things that we do now except we'll be able to have them continue so if you get hit by a car and you die there's another ray that just pops up oh we got the backup Ray and the backup Ray will have no feelings at all about having had died and come back to life well that's a question uh uh I mean why wouldn't it be just like Reay is now why wouldn't it if it gets to a certain if we figure out that if if biological life is essentially some a kind of technology that the Universe has created and we can manipulate that to the point where we understand it we get it we we've U we've optimized it and then replicate it physically replicated not just not just replicated in form of you know on a computer but an actual physical being right well that's where we're headed do you anticipate that people will be happy with whatever they have CU if you decide I don't like being 56 I wish I was 66 I don't like being a woman I like I want to be a man I don't want to be uh Asian I want to be you know whatever I want to be a black person I want to be and we'll actually be able to do all of those things uh simultaneously and so on we're not going to be limited by those kinds of right happen happen stance which is going to be very strange like what will human beings look like if you give people the ability to manipulate your physical form we do things now that were impossible even 10 years ago we certainly do but we don't change races size sex gender height we don't we don't do all those in the the radical increase in just your intelligence like what is that going to look like what what kind of an interaction is it going to be between two human beings when you have a completely new form you know you're you're much different physically than you ever were when you were alive you're you're taller you're stronger you're smarter you're faster you're you're basically not really a human anymore you're a new thing uh I mean we're expanding who we are we already expanded who we are from you know sure right over the course of hundreds of thousands of years we' gone from being Australia epicus to what we are now that that has to do with the uh uh Pace at which we make changes right and we can make changes now much more quickly than we could you know 100 thousand years ago right but if we can manipulate our physical form with no limitations I mean what are the we're going to have six armed people that can fly like what is it going to look like well do you have a problem with that yeah I'm discriminating and six armed people that can fly that's the one area I allow myself to give Prejudice to okay no I just I'm I'm I'm just curious as to how much time you've spend seven arm people would be okay yeah seven arm people is cool because it's like you know maybe five on one side two on the other no it's just I'm just curious as to like how much time you've spent thinking about what this could look like and I just I don't think it's going to be as simple as you know it's going to be Ray kurile but Ray kurile as like a 30-year-old man 50 years from now I think it's probably going to be you're going to be all kinds of different things you could be kind of whatever you want you could be a bird I mean what's what's to stop if we can get to manipulate the physical form and we can take Consciousness and put it into a physical form but that's a description I think of something that's positive rather than negative you could be a Giant Eagle I mean negative is people that that wanted destroy things getting power sure and that that is a problem well it's certainly Improvement in terms of the seven arms and or being like an eagle and so on I mean that and you can also change that right um so I think that's a positive aspect and we will be able to do that kind of thing sure if you want to look at in a binary fashion of positive and negative but it's also going to be insanely strange like it's not going to be as simple as there'll be people that are living in9 once it's first reported if it's been reported now for five years and people are constantly doing it you won't find it that strange it'll just be life yeah yeah so that's what I'm asking like when you think about the implementation of this technology to its fullest what does the world look like what does the world look like in 69 I mean the kind of things that you can imagine right now will will'll be able to do and it might seem strange when it first happens but when it happens for the you know millionth time it won't seem that strange and maybe you like being an eagle for a few minutes or it's certainly interesting it's certainly it's certainly interesting I'm just I just wonder how much time you've spent thinking about what this world looks like with the full implementation of the kind of exponential growth of technology that would exist if we do make it to 269 well I did write a book Danielle um and this young girl has fantastic capabilities and no one really can figure out how she does this uh she actually takes over China at age 15 um and she brings about about she makes it a democracy and then she actually becomes president of the United States at 19 CH of course uh create a constitutional amendment that at least she can become president at 19 that sounds like what a dictator would do um right but unlike a dictator she she's very popular and uh she writes very good music and this is one artificial intelligence creature yes and how was she created it never says that she that she gets these capabilities through through AI I didn't want to spell that out but that that would be the only way that she could do this right unless it's some insane freak of genetics and she's like a very positive person she's very popular yeah but she's the only one that has that yeah right she doesn't give it to everybody which is which which is where it gets really weird you have a cell phone I have a cell phone pretty much everybody has one now what happens when everybody gets the kind of Technology we're discussing well it it shows you the benefit that she has it and if everybody gets it that would be even more positive right perhaps yeah I mean that's the best way of looking at it that we become a completely altruistic positive beneficial to each othery of I mean that is integrated Minds a benefit if you have more intelligence you'd be more likely to do this yes yeah for sure that's the benefit yeah yeah so we live longer and we're also smarter than make making more rational decisions uh towards each other so overall when you're looking at this you just don't concentrate really on the negative possibilities well no I mean I do focus on that as well I mean in but you think overall it's net positive yes it's called it's called intelligence and if you have more intelligence right we'll be doing things that are more beneficial to ourselves and other people do you think that the experiences that we're having right now I mean like right now we have much less crime than we did 50 years ago now if you listen to people debating presidential politics they'll say crime is worst sense ever but if you look at uh the actual um statistics it's gone way down and if you actually go back like a few hundred years uh crime and murder and so on was Far Far higher than it is today it's it's actually pretty rare uh so the kind of additional intelligence that we've created is actually good for for people if you if you look at the actual data sure if you look at stepen pinker's work right you scale it from 100 plus years ago to today things are generally always seem to be moving in a better direction right well Pinker didn't uh credit this uh to technology he just lik looks at looks at the data and says it's got it's gotten better uh what I try to do in the current book is to show how it's related to technology and as we have more technology we're actually moving in this direction so you feel it's a it's a function of technology that we're moving in this direction absolutely I that's why I mean look at the technology in 80 years we've multiplied the amount of computation 20 quadrillion times and so we have things that didn't exist two years ago right when you think about the idea of life on Earth and that this is happening and that we are on this journey to 2045 to the singularity do you consider whether or not this is happening elsewhere in the universe or whether it's already happened uh yeah we see no evidence uh that there's any form of life let alone intelligent life anywhere else and I say well we we're not in touch with these other people it is possible uh but it seems I mean given the exponential uh impact of this type of Technology uh we would be spaced out um based on uh over over a large period of time so some people that might be ahead of us could be ahead of us certainly thousands of years even millions of years and so they'd be like way ahead of us and they' be doing Galaxy wide engineering how is it that we look out there and we don't see anybody doing Galaxy wide engineering maybe we don't have the capability to actually see it I mean the universe is what's the 13.7 billion years old or whatever it is but but even uh just incidental capabilities would affect galaxies we would see that somehow would we if we were at the peak if there is intelligent life in the universe some form of that intelligent life has to be the most advanced and what if we are underestimating our position in the universe that we are the most that's what I'm saying that's what I'm saying but maybe there's something that's like 10 years maybe there's an industrial age I think that's a good argument that we are ahead of of of other people but we don't have the capability of observing the goings on of a planet 5,000 light years away we we can't see into their atmosphere we can't like look at high resolution video of activity on that planet but if they were doing Galaxy wide engineering I think we would notice that if they were more advanced than us maybe we would but what if they're not what if they're at the level that we're at well that's what I'm saying what if we're at the peak and this is like I think it's an argument that we ar at the peak what if it gets to the point where artificial intelligence gets implemented and then that becomes the primary form of life and it doesn't have the desire to do anything in terms of like Galactic engineering but even just incidental uh things would affect whole galaxies like what things like we're doing are we affecting the whole galaxy no not yet right but what if it's like us but it gets to the point where it becomes artificial intelligence and then it doesn't have emotions it doesn't have desires it doesn't have ambition so why would it decide to expand why would it not have those things well we'd have to program it into it but it would probably decide that that's foolish and that those things have caused all these problems all the problems in human race what's our number one issue War what is War C caused by it's caused by ideologies it's caused by acquisition of resources theft resources violence war is not the primary thing that we are motivated by I mean it's not the primary thing we motivated by but it's existed in every single step of the way of human existence but it's it's actually getting better I mean just look at the effect of War sure I mean we have couple of Wars going on now they're not killing millions of people like they used to right right my point is that if artificial intelligence recognizes that the problem with human beings is these emotions and a lot of it is it's fueled by these desires like the desire to expand the desire to acquire things the desire to well the the emotion is positive I mean music and other to us to us but if it gets to the point where artificial intelligence is no longer stimulated by mere human Creations creativity all these different things why would it even have the ambition to do any sort of galaxy-wide engineering why would it want to um because it's based on us it is based on us until it decides it's not based on us anymore that's my point if it realized that like if based on a a very violent chimpanzee and we say you know what there's a lot of what we are because of our genetics that it really are a problem and this is what's causing all of our violence all of our crime all of our war if we just step in and put a stop to all that will we also well put a stop to our maintain that we're actually moving away from that and we are moving away from that but but that's just natural right that's natural with our more our understanding and our mitigations of these social problems so if you expand that even more we'll be even more in that direction as long as we're still we but as soon as you become something different why would it even have the desire to expand if it was infinitely intelligent why would it even want to physically go anywhere why would it want to what's the reason for our reason our our motivation to expand what is it it's human these so like the same humans that were tribal creatures that roam the same humans that stole resources from neighboring Villages this is our genes right this is what made us that got us to this point if we create a sensient artificial intelligence that's far superior to us and it can create its own version of artificial intelligence the first thing it's going to engineer out is all these stupid emotions that get us in trouble well if it just can create happiness and joy from just from programming why would it create happiness and joy through the acquisition of other people's creativity art music all those things and then why would it have any ambition at all to travel why would it want to go anywhere well I mean it's an interesting philosophical problem right it is a problem because a lot of what we are and the things that we create is because of all these flaws that you would say if you were programming us you would say well what is the cause of all these issues human say that there are flaws murder is a flaw isn't it a flaw but that's it's way down right but it's technology moves ahead if it happens to you it's a flaw and crime is a flaw all these theft is a fra fraud those are flaws if we could engineer those out what would be the we that we' do it well one of the things we do we get rid of what it is to be a person because what it is is corrupt people that go down these terrible past cause harm to other people right you're taking a step there that uh ability to feel emotion and so and is a flaw no I'm not I'm saying that it's the root of these flaws that greed and envy and lust and anger are the root yeah i' like to go to the bathroom yeah okay let's go to the bathroom we'll come back we'll talk about flaws and we're back provide an answer to that I mean as I think about myself now um it's when I have emotions that are positive emotions like really getting off on a song or a picture or some new art form that didn't exist in the past uh that's positive that's what I live for relating to another person in a way that's intimate and um so I mean the idea if we're actually more intelligent would not to get rid of that but to actually enjoy that to a greater extent hopefully but what I'm saying is that yes the things that can go wrong it might lead us in a incorrect Direction I'm not even saying it's wrong I'm not saying that it's going to go wrong I just I'm saying that if you wanted to program away some of the issues that human beings have in terms of what keeps us from working with each other universally all over the all over the globe what what keeps us from these things what well we're actually doing that more than we used to do sure sure but also not you know we're also like massive inequality you've got people in the Congo mining Cobalt with sticks that powers your cell phones there's a lot of real problems with society today right but there used to be even more of that there's a lot of that though there's a lot of that and if you looked at greed and War and crime and all the the problems with human beings a lot of it has to do with these biological instincts these instincts to control things these built-in genetic codes that we have that are from our our ancestors that's because we're we haven't gotten there yet right but when we get there you think we will be a better version of a human being and we will be able to experience all the good the positive aspects of being a human being the the art creativity and all these different things I hope so and and actually if if you look at uh what human beings have done already we're moving in that direction right I may not seem that way no it does seem that way to me it does overall you know but it's also like you know if you look at a graph of temperatures it goes up it goes down it goes up it goes down go but it's moving in a general direction we are moving why we want to continue uh moving in this same direction yeah I don't think it's not a guarantee I mean you can describe things that would uh would be horrible and it's feasible yeah it could be the end of the human race right or it could be the beginning of the next race of this new thing well I mean when I was born we created nuclear weapons uh and and people were cons and very soon we had hydrogen weapons and we have enough hydrogen weapons to wipe out all Humanity we still have that MH uh that didn't exist like a hundred years ago well it did exist 80 years ago yeah um so that that is something that concerns me and and you could do the same thing with artificial intelligence it could also create something that would be very negative but my what what I'm getting at is like what do you think life looks like if it's engineered what do you think human life looks like if it's engineered by a far superior intelligence and what would it change about what it means to be a person I mean if you first of all we would base it on what human beings are already so we become better versions of ourselves for example we'd be able to overcome uh lifethreatening diseases and we're actually working on that and that's going to go into high gear very soon yes but that's still being a human being if you're implementing large scale artificial intelligence you're you're a superhuman you're a different thing you're not what we are you're you're you're going if you have the computational power superum you have the human being as part of it for now but this is the thing if if you're engineering this artificial intelligence and you're engineering this which is essentially like a superior life form it's going to look at it logically it's going to look at the issues that human beings have logically and say well we don't need this this is a problem this this is what we needed when we were primates and we're not that anymore we're this new thing we're going to like who cares what the movie's like it's not just a it's just a thing that's tricking your body into pretending that it's involved in drama but it's not really well you're making certain assumptions about what we'll create no I'm just making a an assumption I mean in my mind we' want to create better music and better art and uh better relationships um well the relationship should be all perfect eventually if we keep going in this general direction well it's not perfect I mean but if you get artificial intelligence we're we're all reading each other's minds and everyone's working towards the same goal well no you can't read each other's minds I mean we can create yes we can create privacy that's virtually unbreakable and you could keep the Privacy to yourselves but can you do that as technology scales upward if it continues to move I mean it's it's difficult like your phone like anyone can listen to you on your phone and I mean anyone who has a significant technology actually it has very has pretty good technology already you can't really read someone else's phone you definitely could yeah if you have Pegasus you could hack into your phone easily not hard at all the the the new software that they have all they need is your phone number all they need is your phone number and they can look at every text message you send every email you send they can look at your camera they could turn on your microphone easy we we have ways of keeping total privacy and if it's not built into your phone now it will be right but it's definitely not built into your phone now would the the security people that really understand the the capabilities of intelligence agencies they 100% can listen to your phone 100% can turn on your camera 100% can record your voice yes and no I mean we we have an ability to keep total privacy in in a device um but from who you you can keep privacy from me cuz I don't have access to your device but if I was working for an intelligence agency and I had access to a pegasus program I am in your device now I've I've talked to people only because it's not perfect we can actually build much better privacy than exists today but the Privacy that we have today is far less than the prives that we had before we had phones uh I don't really quite agree with that how so if you have if you didn't have a phone okay okay and you were at home having a conversation a sensitive conversation about maybe you didn't pay as much taxes as you should there's no way anybody would hear that but now your phone hears that if you have an Alexa in your home your your Alexa hears you say that people have been charged with crimes because Alexa heard them committing murder um we actually know how to create perfect privacy in your phone and if your phone doesn't have that that's just an imperfection in the way we're building these things now but it's not just an imperfection it's sort of built into the program itself because that's that's what fuels the algorithm is it has access to all of your data it has access to all of your what you're interested in what you like what you don't like you can't opt out of it especially you you've got a Google phone that thing is just a net scooping up information uh we know how to build perfect privacy and how do do we do it I mean if it's not built into your phone now uh it should be unless they don't want it to be built in there because there's an actual business model in it not being built in there okay but it can be done and uh if people want that uh it'll happen but you recognize the financial incentive in not doing that right because that's what like a company like Google for instance that's where they make the majority of their money from data or a lot of their money I should say well I mean they um there's actually a lot of effort that goes into keeping what's on your phone private uh it's it's not that easy private from some people but not really private it's only private until they want to listen and now the capability of listening to your phone is super easy not really no with a pegasus program it's very easy well that has to do with imperfections and the way phones are created right but I think it's a feature I think part of the feature is that they want as much data from you and knowing about what you're doing what you're talking about have you ever had a conversation with someone then you see an ad for that thing on Google um it happens yeah yes but so something's going on where it's it's listening to your conversations it's picking up on key words it's not picking up on everything not yet well it's not unless it wants to like I said if they're using a program an intelligence program to gather information from your phone it is and you're basically you got a little spy that you carry around with you everywhere you go um unless you're using I mean there's I mean if you think that's a major issue we could build phones that are impossible to uh to spy on maybe uh but if we did well there are some phones that like graphine do you know about that you know about people that uh they take a Google phone and they put a a different Linux based operating system on it makes it much more difficult to track and there's multi levels of protection there's a bunch of phones that are being made that are security phones but I mean you lose access to apps you lose access to a lot of the features that people rely on when it comes to phones like for instance like if you have GPS on your phone soon as you're using GPS you're easy to find right so you lose that privacy if they want to know where rais phone is they know exactly where rais phone is and they that's where you are and you're with your phone they've got you tracked everywhere you go it's complicated if if this were a major issue we could definitely overcome that we know how I think it's a major issue but I don't think it's a major concern for most people right but it's because they reap the benefits of it like the algorithm is specifically tailor that's how we fund the types of things we put on phones right but you can't opt out of it unless you just decide to get a flip phone but even if you do they can they figure out where you are they triangulate you from cell phone towers I mean we give up certain things and order to to get the benefits of shones yeah we do um if if what you're giving up is a grave concern we could overcome that we know how to do that yeah if if people agree that the benefit of overcoming that outweighs the loss in the financial loss that you would have with not having access to everybody's data and information well I mean what you're giving up is a certain type of data that you want certain type of uh capability that you could buy and so so you they can advertise that to you and and people feel that that's okay yeah um but for example keeping your email private is is quite feasible it's possible but it's also easy to have like people could be reading your emails all the time and you should probably assume that they do well it's a complicated issue but we can keep for example your emails private and and and generally we actually do do that generally for most people but my point is as this technology scales upward when you have greater and greater computational power and then you're also integrated with this technology how does that keep whatever group is in charge from being able to essentially access the thing that is inside your head now how do how do you if you have a technology that's going to be upgraded and you're going to get new you know new software it's going to keep improving as time goes on what what kind of privacy would be involved in that if you're literally having something that can get into your brain and if most people can't get into your brain can intelligence agencies get into your brain can foreign governments get into your brain like what what does that look like and I'm not looking at this as a negative I'm just saying if you're just looking at this just like completely objectively like what is what is what are the possibilities that this could look like I'm trying to paint like a weird picture of what this could look like well a lot of things you want to share I mean music and so on mhm uh it's desirable to share that and you'd want that to be shared if you didn't share anything you'd be pretty lonely sure what do you think about the potential for a universal language do you think that one one of the things that holds people back is you know the Rosetta Stone the the the Tower of Babel Thea we we can't really understand what all these other people are saying we don't know how they think if we can develop a universal worldwide language through this do you think it's feasible I mean all languages that we have were created they're all well we have a certain means of changing one language into another so right that's what I'm saying uh and we're doing that now with some like Google does that with translate and the new Samsung phone phones do that in real time yeah yeah I wrote about that in 1989 that we'd be able to have Universal translation between languages but do you think that the adoption of a universal language perfect but it's actually pretty good it's pretty good but there's also context that's missing because there's there's different cultural significance there there's there's different ways that people say things there's gendered language and other nationalities use and other countries use and you try to get that into the language translation as well you can but it's a little bit imperfect right this is have you might have something that's said very quickly and you'd have to translate it into much longer language in order to capture that right but would a universal language be possible if you're creating something why would you need that because what we have all of our language is pretty flawed ultimately I mean we we use it but we how many versions of your do we have how many there's a bunch of different weird things about language that's imperfect because it's old it's like old technology if we decided to make a better version of Technology through ART excuse me better version of language through artificial technology and say listen instead of trying to translate everything now that we're super powerful intelligent beings that are enhanced by artificial intelligence let's create a a better more Superior universally adopted language maybe I mean do you see that as a major need yeah I do yeah I think that would change a lot I mean we'd lose all the amazing nuances of cultures which I don't think is good for us as human beings but we're not going to be human beings so maybe it would be better if we could communicate exactly the way we prefer to well we would be human beings I in my mind the human being is someone who can change both ourselves and means of communication uh uh to enjoy better means of expressing art and culture and so on uh no other animal really quite does that right except human beings so that is an essence of what it means to be a human being for now but when you're a mindreading eagle and you're flying around are you really a human being anymore yes because we are able to change ourselves so that's just a new definition of what a human being is yeah what are your thoughts on simulation Theory um if you mean that we're living in this simulation well first of all uh some people believe that we can express physics as uh as formulas and that the universe is is actually able to uh it's capable of computation and therefore everything that happens uh is a result of some computation and therefore the universe is capable of uh we are living in something that uh is computable um and there's some debate about whether that's feasible but uh that doesn't necessarily mean that we're living in a simulation generally if you say we're living in a simulation you assume that some other place and teenagers in that world uh like to create a simulation so they created a simulation that that we live in and you want to make sure that they don't turn the simulation off so we'd have to be interesting to them and so they keep the simulation going um but the whole universe uh could be capable of simulating reality and and that's and that's what what we live in and it's not a game it's just the way the universe works uh I mean what what would what would the difference be if we lived in a simulation this is this is what I'm saying if we can and we're on our way to creating something that is IND discernible from reality itself I I don't think we're that far away from that many decades away from having some sort of a virtual experience that's IND discernible from regular reality I mean I mean we try to do that with games and so on right and we're those are far superior to what they were just I mean I'm I'm younger than you but I can remember pong remember pong it was groundbreaking you could play a video game on your television this is crazy it was so nuts and we're way beyond that now yeah now you look at like the unreal five engine it's insane how how beautiful it is and how incredible and what the so if you live in that that's that's kind of a simulation that right but as you expand that further and you get to the point where you're actually in a simulation and that your life is not the this carbon based biological life feeling and texture that you think it is whether you're really a part of this thing that's been created this is where it gets real weird with like probability Theory right because they think that if a simulation is possible it's more likely it's already happened I mean there's really unlimited amount of things that we could simulate and experience uh and so it's hard to say we're living in the simulation because a lot of of what we're doing is it's living in a computational world anyway so it's basically being simulated yeah in in a way yeah and if you were some sort of an alien life form wouldn't that be the way you go instead of like taking physical metal crafts and shooting them off into space wouldn't you sort of create artificial space create artificial worlds create something that exists in the sense that you experience it and it's IND discernible to the person experiencing it but if you're intelligent enough you'll be able to tell what's being simulated and what's not and up to a point until it actually does all the same things that regular reality does it just does it through technology and maybe that's what the universe is but the that's okay and we we could still experience what's happening yeah and and we could also experience people doing galaxy-wide engineering which not all of which would be simulated so the galaxy-wide engineering is the main thing that you look at and to the point where I don't see any evidence for life outside well there's definitely no real evidence that we've seen other than these people that talk about UFOs uaps and pilots and all these people that say that there's these things basically don't see any evidence that life is simulated uh outside of our own life I mean we can simulate things and experience it uh we don't see any evidence that other beings are doing that elsewhere right but this is based on such limited data though right I mean look at what limited data we just have of Mars we have Rover roll around satellites and orbit it's very limited data with something that's just one planet over we don't really have the data to understand what's going on in Al centu it's possible that this simulated life elsewhere I mean it's uh we don't see any evidence for it but it's possible is it is something that intrigues you or do you just look at it like there's no evidence so I'm not going to concentrate on that I'm very interested to see what we can achieve because we're actually on I can see that we're on that path and so it it doesn't take a lot of curiosity my part to imagine other people uh simulating life and enjoying it um I'm much more interested to see what will be feasible for us and we're not that far away from it so over the next four years five years you think we're going going to be able to far surpass the ability of of human beings we're going to to be able to stop aging and then eventually reverse aging and then 25 20 45 comes along what does that look like well one of the reasons we call it Singularity is because we really don't know I mean that's why it's called Singularity singularity in physics is where you have a black hole uh no energy can get out of black hole and therefore we don't really know what's going on in it and we call it a singularity so this is a historical Singularity based on the kinds of things we've been talking about and again we don't really know what that will be like and that's why we call it a singularity uh another another way of looking at it I mean we have mice and they have experiences it's a limited amount of complexity because that particular species hasn't really evolved very much um and we'll be going beyond what human beings can do so to ask a human being what it's like to be uh a human being in the singularity it's like asking a mil what would it be like if you would evolve to become like a human now if you ask him mouse that it wouldn't understand the question it wouldn't be able to formulate an answer it wouldn't even be able to think about it uh and asking a cent human being what it's going to be like to live in The Singularity is a little bit like that so it's just who knows it's going to be wild we be able to do things that we can't even imagine today right well I'm very excited about it even though it's scary I'm I'm I know I ask a lot of tough questions about this because these are my own questions these this is like what bounces around inside my own head I you know well that that's why I'm excited about it also because it basically means more intelligence uh and we'll be able to think about things that we can't even imagine today and solve problems yes yeah including like uh Dying For example yeah well listen man I'm glad you're out there it's very important that people have access to this kind of thinking and you've dedicated your whole life to this in this book uh Ray KW The Singularity is near when we merge with AI it's available now did you do the audio version of it um that's being worked on now are you doing it it's it's coming out June um no no I want to hear it in your voice it's your words yeah that's what people say yeah why don't you do it you should do you know what you should do just get a AI to do it why waste all that time sitting around doing it basically do about that yesterday 100% looking they could take your voice from this podcast and and do this book in an audio version easy do you know what they're doing now at Spotify they're translating this podcast they're going to translate it to German French and Spanish and it's going to be like your voice in perfect Spanish my voice in perfect Spanish this actually came up yesterday I'll think about that pretty wild yeah it's 100% you should do that okay my friend Duncan does that all the time he'll have friends text friends or send a voice message as a fake voice message that's ridiculous you know talking about how he's marrying his cat or something like that it's just like just but he does it with AI and it sounds exactly like whoever that person is okay so that's the that's the solution have ai read your of course you should have ai read your book I can't believe we even would think of you sitting down for 40 hours or whatever it would take it probably take more than that to read this whole book and then if you mess up you got to go back and start again well certainly that's going to be feasible whe that's feasible now to get all the new nuances correct I bet it's pretty close yeah I bet it's pretty close right now but it has to be very close cuz we're doing it like in the next month or so so I bet I bet they can do don't you think they can do it Jamie yeah I think they can do it right now listen Ray I appreciate you very much uh thank you very much for being here and thank you for your time and thank you for this book uh when is it available June 24th June I got an early copy kids yeah thank you sir really appreciate you thank you very much my pleasure bye everybody [Music]

Channel: PowerfulJRE

Views: 601,257

Keywords: Joe Rogan Experience, JRE, Joe, Rogan, podcast, MMA, comedy, stand, up, funny, Freak, Party

Id: w4vrOUau2iY

Length: 123min 2sec (7382 seconds)

Published: Tue Mar 12 2024