Joe Rogan Experience #1485 - Krystal & Saagar

here we go we're rolling what's up good to see you guys it's always weird to meet somebody when you watch a lot of the YouTube content TV cotton and then you're like you're real let's yeah we all feel about each other I love you guys thank you well same we feel the same for sure you guys are honest I mean we were talking about that earlier like it's so rare that someone is just calling it like it is like what you see and obviously you guys don't agree on everything and I you know no one does but right we all have varying opinions but you say what you feel and that is so valuable today it's so unusual it's just such a weird partisan time it is a weird partisan time like it's never been harder to actually just do that thing and I can't say I mean we don't get it right all the time but the whole idea was to try to have this conversation between kind of the new left and the new right that wasn't happening at any anywhere in a way that was valuing people's humanity that was trying to deal in the land of the honest not cheerleading a team or the other but actually trying to like be straightforward about what we think and evaluating the facts as we find them and I mean I have to say like you have somewhat created that space where that can happen so I think we're in part indebted to you you know absolutely and you know it's crazy I think the reason it works is because we both kind of came up in quasi traditional background right like Crystal came from the MSNBC world like I was a White House correspondent like I worked with a lot of these traditional reporters and like you know I would do Fox News and all these other things and it just it's always so frustrating when you're on TV you get three and a half minutes to talk right like I once did a segment on you know nationalism which was to two and a half minutes with three people on a put on a panel like how are you supposed to get your point across and so when you're when you're doing that and you see like so you can make an entire career in DC just sticking to the party line no matter what these people believe and you just spit out the talkers and they literally send you they'll send you talking points they just say over is that what is what is that like what is that what is the talking but like you get a sheet you would like a discuss what it like wouldn't message of the day here's the message of the day here you're talking points top line then you going you turn on fox news you can hear it come out of there literally word-for-word it turn on MSNBC you can hear it word for word from the Biden campaign to their surrogates it's all planned man like it's all from service nobody actually thinks for themself and that when we came together like we were hosting a show that's what set us apart I mean I think that's why it's caught on what's the incentive like is it the incentive access money for you to stay with the party line with it's a lot safer I mean you know it's not easy to sort of be out there on your own you know and I don't want to paint just sort of trying to be honest as a more noble act than it actually is it's very safe if you're within the party structure if you're saying the things that they want you to say there's a whole system set up for that there's a career system set up for that there's a system of protection so you're allowed to be dramatically wrong on things like the Iraq war or things like the financial crisis if you're wrong in the approved ways right if you're wrong in the non approved ways then you can get destroyed cancelled all of those things so it's a lot safer to stay within the bounds and and look like we're living that in real time right now I mean it's never been just with how fraught you know you have pandemic where people are dying you have Great Depression so it's like the Spanish flu and the Great Depression and then you layer on top of that like all the chaos of the 60s the lines have never been more drawn at least in the time then that we've been doing the show as they are right now and so it's it is a it's not an easy dynamic to navigate because most of the country is just completely coming apart yeah and I want to picking up you're like why do you do it if you do it you hop on establishment campaign to establishment campaign campaign cycles over you go work at a think tank which is all your former buddies from the campaign then you go and you do the talking points you will always have a job you will never suffer you'll never even if nobody likes what you have to say even if Republican voters or Democratic voters have rejected your message six out of seven popular vote elections doesn't matter because the money is there and the people who have the money have an interest in propping up that infrastructure so when you get your talking points you know that if you say them you're in X is good graces and then that person has to hire you they'll throw you consulting contract they'll throw you this they'll put your name forward whenever it's time to staff up in administration that's how the system of the grift in the city actually works and that's how they keep dissenting voices in their own party down because how do you how do you even get on TV or how do you even become an authoritative voice in your party you need credentials right everything is credentialism well how do you get those credentials they control who enters the programs and they control who they push they control who they push forward and so that's how they try to keep people who have dissenting opinions out and it's like we said it's because of the space that you opened up where nobody knew that somebody wanted to listen to a guy talk about chimps for three hours that happened that created a space where it's like no no there's a lot of people who are fed up with this [ __ ] but can I say also it's not just that like direct career Grif trajectory it's also that we're at this point in the nation's history which again has never been more obvious than right now where the stakes feel really existential and you know and that's that's a real thing I mean before Trump's election there was this flight 93's a where the the argument was look if you're a social conservative if you're not sure that this Trump guy is for you this election is existential you have to grab the controls or else our way of life is going to die now I don't agree with that assessment I think that is hyperbolic I think it's over-the-top you know the conservative way of life is going to continue in their churches and people can do what they want to do but that's the that was a legitimate sense among the Trump base and of course we see it with the the Democrats on the Left right now and I would say at this moment it has probably never been more true in terms of that existential nature as we see you know the president calling for potentially military activation in American cities and we see him using tear gas and rubber bullets on peaceful protesters so the fact that the stakes feel so existential on both side it's make it very very difficult to engage in a way that is thoughtful honest non hyperbolic and where everyone's not just basically mad at you all the time how did you guys start your show well I mean it's a crazy story so crystal was co-hosting previously and this was before kind of the show was on YouTube and I think I fair to say was more like standard yeah more of a standard left-right kind of dynamic or we didn't have this was just you know when I started on the street took on the show last year yeah yeah so before that for about a year before that I'd been co-hosting another guy great guy buck Saxton and we had sort of a more standard left-right dynamic sounds like a porn star I used to fill in for buck right when he was gone and Krystal and I like we we found like we would click on certain issues right like especially on these are the things you see on the show like on economics on the indictment of the economic system about right even on Charlie I'm not a Trump toady right like I'm not if they give me the talking boys like I'm if I say something if I think something is good I'll say it's good and everything it's something is bad then that's bad and gets me into trouble it gets Krystal into trouble too don't define trouble I mean you know people are pissed off at what you say they'll tweeting like how dare you do you read that stuff yeah that's the price here is it I probably should I would read more of it it's not that I haven't liked smarter to not reaiiy didn't like have kids that actually helps a lot great satellite internet and it sucks really hard it's actually great so yeah that's recommend it yeah it still helps if you're trying to upload something it's virtually impossible so yeah so when buck wanted to focus on his radio show and you know one of the one of the expectations of the hill which is you know the corporate news brand that sponsors us is that this would be a left-right show I thought let's do a left-right show in a way that no one has done before where normally the consensus the sort of left-right consensus is like this we're all moderates we're all corporate is we believe in unity we believe in like low taxes we believe in free trade deals that's the in wars and those sorts of things that's the sort of standard bipartisan consensus that you're allowed to have so we thought what if we did it in a different left-right dynamic where we actually have more overlap on some of these economic issues and the dissent is around more of the cultural issues and and what does that look like because that's actually more representative of where the two parties are headed right if you look at where young people are it's also more representative of where more Americans are I mean you know sagar says and i think this is true there is very little representation and has been historically at least for people who are like economically more left and culturally more right all of the elite conversation is this very like economically liberal but on social cultural issues economically more conservative like balance the budget you know taxes and stuff but on social cultural issues more liberal as more the elite conversation that is commonly happening on cable news even though that's reflective of like teeny tiny portion of America that's 10 percent of the population and they all live in like New York City LA San Francisco it's like the like what America is I would say cult pretty culturally right not like super ripe like center-right and economically you could say cultural left I mean a little bit left it depends on how you define those things but one of the I mean to eat those of the show crystal actually said this I think to the times was what if we hated each other less and the elites more that's kind of how we boil it down and I did you guys have a concert in a conversation before you started working together yeah yeah sit down how do you feel about this how do you feel about that yeah I mean we because he'd filled in before and you know I mean you know when you have guests on when you work with someone especially in a media space you could you get a vibe right away and you can tell right away you know number one is this person like ready to hold the chair ready to do this thing do they have this sort of fully formed coherent ideas or things they want to explore that's gonna make sense so just on that like surface level is that gonna work but you also get a real vibe for not even where are you ideologically but are you willing to be honest when your team is [ __ ] up and look everyone looks at cable news even if you are you know a kind of standard down the line Democrat or a standard Trump Republican no one believes that these people are really shooting straight with them everyone sees the partisan cheerleading that is going on in the normal cable news networks and so it was very easy to see right away that Sarah was a person who was willing to you know to be honest where his own team was concerned and to me that was kind of the most important piece yeah I mean insane right like which is that it's when you're talking to somebody or on cable or and just even in an argument it's just standard talking about you and you can catch them in one of those like him what about isms it's just so frustrating it's just and it's so unproductive and that's this thing I hated the most about you know my time when I was in the White House press corps it was very much just like the quote you could predict every single question before the briefing even began every single one and it just used to drive me nuts because you'd see these people and they care a lot more about getting cable news contracts and all that than they ever do like actually asking legitimate quiet or like real questions about what you think of this program or what it's all you know I mean just to standard issue crap and like it was like every single day and with cristal was like fine like somebody's willing to call out the problems on their side and I was willing to do the same thing I've kind of I've always been like that and that's that's where we were like we have something here and you know I mean and then it just started to take off we were I mean it was like we just put it out into the ether and all of a sudden it just started like catching just you know you the first thing that really caught was we did an interview with the intro yeah yep and I've actually known I'm not Andrew for a long time great guy just you know say like try to be honest like really figure things out and he his answer may not always be my answer but I feel like he's really trying to figure it out and come to a good place and see the best in people yeah and so we did this long-form interview with him where I mean there was nothing crazy about it we just actually asked him policy focused substantive questions for I don't know 30 minutes yes I think I was like 30 man and it blew up and people loved it and we're like before that we were getting like hundred views like oh my god we got a thousand views on that one right and then and we post this Andrew yang video and it's just like blows up and we thought wow this is really really interesting because of the questions we asked it was like you were asking him about not just ubi which is what he's known for about like medicare-for-all and all and I was asking on occasion I asked him about the China trade deal and about you know intellectual property and tariffs and people loved that we just asked them yeah willing to ask yeah yeah and then it wasn't and that they weren't stupid I mean that's the thing too at that point is campaign forum everybody basically except you it was getting these really stupid questions about like oh is it just white nationalists who are supporting you and you know I really picked up gang as like a mean thing like it over like I don't even really remember what the context was but I mean he obviously disavowed it but people were picking it up but why are all these white national support it's like they're obviously trolling dude like that's crazy though that you can get in trouble for the people that like you like you get your figure you have no control over that like how could he know that there's white national said even have them on the radar but it's and it's not even that like you see this with any candidate who comes from outside the sort of established channels I mean you see the same thing with with Tulsi you saw the same thing with Bernie you saw the same thing in some ways with Trump is like they use who is supporting you they find like the worst person that and then they use that to dismiss the whole thing like that way they don't have to engage with your arguments or your policy ideas or who you are what you're doing as a person it's like this person associated with with you is bad ergo you are bad ergo we don't have to deal with that at all I think some of that has to do with this this quality of posting things on social media like this 140 character now 280 character quality of Twitter where you're just kind of condensing things and it's this reductionist view of stuff and then just put it out there oh he's racist oh he's sexist oh he's supported by white nationalists so and then BOOM that's the narrative stick with it there's no nuance run and think about that right the cause they just like the sheer amount of arrogance it takes to just sum up somebody in like to 80 characters and respect this person is a racist I think I don't even acknowledge thee I mean do they know what it means to call somebody that right I don't think it's a real statement it's just like you're saying it right but it's one person talking to the ether right there's no one's saying like says who Sookie see and your gang is not a [ __ ] white nationalist like what are you talking about man like you need someone in front of you going what the [ __ ] are you talking about like hehe oh he knows those guys are supporting him and so he's going out of his way to court them you're saying right right stupid but no one's gets to say that to them so they get to put those tweeting is one of the worst ways to gather information right it's one of the worst ways to have a dialog because especially when you're defining something or someone and I feel the same way about sometimes occasionally about really self-righteous blogs and they write an evil blog about someone that person doesn't get a chance to respond right now you're just sort of saying it out there your perception of that person and you can make all these horrible distortions whether it's about Andrew yang or Tulsi Gabbard or whoever yeah you can make these horrible distortions and then someone reads it and you're you're putting out this distorted unchallenged perception of someone whereas if you were having a conversation with you to them or someone who you know was a more rational point of view they could say well that's not really true because she actually said this right this is what she and this is the greater context the conversation we're constantly trying to draw lines around like who are the good people and who are the bad people and like where's that bright line and which side of the line are you on and you're not allowed to associate with the people on the the bad line yeah and I think like social media obviously exacerbates all of that makes a million times worse no doubt about it because it's all so simplistic it's also like sensationalist driven it's all like keys into your sort of like basic instincts and your adrenaline and your dopamine response and all of that but there's also been a sort of strategy from you know the the political and media elites in the country where if you pit people against each other and this is something Matt Taibbi who's you know we had great guy you had him on here he's fantastic things about this great book hey hey tank and his thesis is essentially that once the Cold War ended and we didn't have Russia to be the bad guy that the new ratings innovation was to make each other the bad guys and what does that do first of all it's great for ratings cuz you got an easy villain you know on Fox it's people like me on MSNBC it's people like soccer right it's easy villains easy ratings you can find stories all day long that support that narrative no problem but it also saves any sort of accountability from the people that are in power because if you know people who are out there in the country if the voters are the problem if they are bad if they are evil if they are deplorable then it's not the fault of the people in power that things are going wrong it's not their fault that these terrible evil sexist racist horrible people voted the wrong way it's those people's fault and so it saves them from ever having to do any self-reflection or make any adjustments in what they're doing and I think it's a big part of why we are where we are yeah I mean that's just such a huge part of the show which is just trying to draw a compassion for people trying to understand what motivates 65 I don't know the numbers I think it's 60 something million to pull the lever for Trump what happened there right and that's just something that the media has not spent any introspection trying to understand what would compel a person to do that what would compel a person to vote for Bernie Sanders it's I mean you know they're like Oh Bernie Bros it's all why I mean if you look at the data which we talked about on our show constantly it's just absolutely false and it's it's in that way that you can begin to understand and actually even respond right and that's actually the thing I love the most about the show is sometimes I friends you know like on the ride and they'll say something about the leg the left thinks there's like no man like I left coast and like that's not what she says her response is XYZ I'm sure the same thing happens with crystal which is that you know why as you said with Twitter condensing our rhetoric and our politics to 280 characters and trying to condense hyper complex and multifaceted ideas and multifaceted discussions and deep conversations down to that level helps nobody and actually all it does is help split people apart for a pretty explicit reason which is that part of the things that we talk about on the show is the reason why you know the elites the cultural elites right and left kind of want everybody split is because they don't want people to have the uncomfortable conversation around how the economy is structured they don't every day that we talk we have some you know cultural debate in the country is every day that we're not talking about how many million people in this country are unemployed right now about the political choice the political choice and some of the thing I talk a lot on the show about to allow people to be forced off their payroll and to go onto unemployment to allow businesses to fail to allow people to suffer when we have the explicit choice of allowing them to keep their payroll I mean it's something we've been focused on so much because the implications of that when you're also making the explicit choice in order to you know cap the amount of money that goes to a small business program when you're doing you know big checks in order to corporation or do to the airlines which are firing people anyway despite the fact that they got like fifty billion dollars you don't have a conversation about that that they will never want to have that one because they want people to hate each other more yeah I think there's something about using social media that also facilitates mental illness and this is what I'm what I mean like we all have varying degrees of health right some days you run down some days you feel great some days you're coming down with a cold some days you're in bed with the flu we all very I think that there's something about the kind of interactions that people are having when they're arguing with [ __ ] on Twitter that you could make a real I think you could draw a graph on human beings under their mental health yeah and how much are you using social media and how many interactions are you having where you're arguing with people how do you feel well it's funny Joe that that actually happened to me like I spend all day on Twitter I absolutely shouldn't from getting into treatment I stop myself on getting into most Twitter fights please stay off of it the few days after this podcast I took like a vacation right before I can't I started taking over the show I spent like ten days off tweet and that's when the Muller report came out and I made I was like I'm not no Twitter and I just read it in the paper where I actually went found the link read the whole work it was amazing I had all these like nuanced thoughts like this I was like oh well the mall report you know that shows this oh this person was full of [ __ ] the whole time but you don't need to go out there and tweet it whereas if I had been in my office at like this idiot you know but it was it was great and I should probably go back to that I've incorporated some of it I broke my phone once on vacation yeah I was in Hawaii and you know if you want to order a phone it took like I ordered it from Apple it took like three days to get there something like that yeah so for four days no phone right and it was amazing yeah it was amazing I was like I feel so much more relaxed no I mean these are like [ __ ] they're likes Canarian like you know reflex device Skinner like the you know push the lever and get rewarded I mean you see it with like I see with my kids too if I let them have the device too much they get all irritated and agitated truly because it's the it is exact same neural pathways those like dopamine response systems as with any addiction I mean it's you have engineers who are making their living trying to figure out how to program your brain to not ever get off Twitter and not get off whatever it is that you're obsessed with on your phone or your device and like that's what you're up against Oh humble about I just have so many friends that have that problem like sometimes I'll text them then I'll get back a green bubble and I'm like did you switch to Android nah man I switch to a flip phone right wean myself I mean we we don't have good broadband access where we live and it's sort of a pain in the ass sometimes but it actually is it like on the weekend I'm sure it's correct I had like I have to be off of it I'm forced to and I wouldn't have the willpower to do that myself and it is it actually really is great you know one of my friends JD Vance he wrote this book hillbilly ology and one of the things he talks about is he's like you know we have our best scientists neuroscientists all these other people in the world trying to figure out how does make you and I spend more micro and milliseconds and kids on their phones than trying to change the world or invent medicine like that is kind of the profit incentive right for so many of these absolutely that's something I mean this is a big like new right conversation actually like Senator Josh Holley introduced legislation you got it took a lot of [ __ ] for it cuz they're like he's trying to be the product manager of the internet but like there's something there right there's something about how these systems are designed and the people who are working to try and spend you to make all this time on the phone yeah I don't know if I mean that's that's not greately we had the Surgeon General on our show and he's like yeah I'm pretty concerned not only is it not great but it's also really difficult to avoid oh yeah like once you get to doing it it's a harder kick than sugar it's it's right up there with caffeine and nicotine makes you feel like you're really doing something it makes you feel like you're really like this tweet this one's gonna be that one that really you know and you watch the numbers go up and it makes you feel like you are engaged in some sort of like minor battle minor victory go to Sam tripley's Instagram page and pull that thing that he said what white people feel like when they virtue signal it is it's an amazing photograph this district this to me epitomizes and embodies the feeling that I get when I see silly people tweet things yeah [Laughter] Khaleesi from Game of Thrones and she's being carried by all these uh it's this thing where people just I mean virtue signal is a [ __ ] fantastic phrase because it really is what it is yeah it's just perfect and you know it's a little overused but I like it I'm gonna keep using it well it's an important term too because it explains a lot of like the ineffectiveness of our politics like it's all rhetorical it's all like rhetorically signaling which side you're on and the sort of illusion of disagreement in Washington when actually you know they're a unanimously pass things like this for trillion dollars for big business and push everybody mass unemployment mathaa my favorite example on that is there was a like a ten year birthday party for AIG which is you know the big insurance try that we bailed out in 2008 in the committee room for the House Ways and Means which is the committee in charge of taxing in the United States so in the committee room they held a birthday party for the company that they bailed out Democrats and Republicans all showed up man the special [ __ ] specialty cocktails at this thing this is in the committee room in the very room to decide where they decided to bail these companies out which are the tune of billions you know enduring Wall Street and so much more thrown birthday parties well it's all open we were trying to figure out how Nancy Pelosi made all our money we're like what's her husband right is that the thing I think isn't think so how do you think her dad was like a shenanigans Dylan Aldrin or mayor or something I don't know but with just the amount of money that's involved in these decisions the amount of money that's involved in you know an influence and sharing influence and and getting people to like your perspective and then the really gross thing is when they leave office when politicians particularly the president leaves office and then they get these fantastic paydays to speak here's what anybody really want to pay to your hillary clinton speaker just [ __ ] imagine being the type of person that's like i got some [ __ ] hot $1500 tickets to hero 50 grand right my example of this we've covered recently the former US ambassador to China Max Baucus he was on you know also Senate Banking Commission he's now on the board for Alibaba which is one of the biggest Chinese companies and then in the middle of all this stuff around Chinese tariffs and the coronavirus and all that stuff he's out there on CNN and on chinese state media being like trump is Hitler like do what he's doing I don't like he was the ambassador to China and I was getting paid by one of the largest Chinese companies I mean which you know in China there's no such thing really right government and it's like it's just the it's out in the open I mean Obama's another great example Obama is I think is a former NSC director for cyber security went to go work for ZTE which is a Chinese technology I mean for cybersecurity when to go Lobby is now a lobbyist on behalf of ZTE it's making we were we were tied back what you know during Ukraine gate when we were talking about you know hunter Biden earning these big paychecks on this Ukrainian he deserved it that this is illegal but that's like exactly the points we have Carson Ted Lou on his Democrat from California and we're like you know is this okay it's like people sit on boards they earn money this is just because this is they really think about it that way this is just the way that the town operates and it's you know it's easy to look at these individual examples and be disgusted by them but the the bottom line is it's a much deeper problem than that we we covered a poll recently that was actually done by the hill and Harris X people's other number one political issue was corruption like beyond climate change or health care or whatever the one the number one thing that they were most concerned about was political corruption and you look at what is happening in the country right now and the fact that our institutions have no credibility that there's no expectation that you could affect change through traditional channels I mean that feeds into exactly the rage that's exploding across the country we covered before coronavirus right and 40 million plus Americans unemployed and hundreds of you know hundred thousand plus and before riots broke out and before George Floyd was killed and before all of that we covered this poll where 40% of Americans Athens 43% said when they think of our cultural and social institutions they just want to burn it all down 40% like what does that mean in a context of a democracy on the other hand when you consider the fact that the largest pool of citizens in the country aren't Trump voters or Hillary voters or Biden voters or whatever they're non voters yeah these people have said like this isn't worth it this doesn't reflect my this is not going to mean jack [ __ ] for me in my life and if you look at that number and then you consider what you see happening across the country where people again and they feel like they have are so disgusted with what's going on and they're Restless and masked and like have had all of their normal tools of being numbed with infotainment and sugar and all those things and sports sort of taken away from them you start to understand what we're seeing it's really a perfect storm I mean completely we've never experienced anything like this before it's fascinating to see how the thin veneer of civilization can be chipped through and you just see the the really deep pool of despair that's underneath it it's there's so much madness going on in the streets today and it's so hard to get a bead on how this is all playing out like how it's all being organized how these cops feel like they can just shoot people with rubber bullets and tear gas out in the open front of everybody when people are I mean you know ting the death of a guy who was murdered by a bad cop and where it's on campus on CNN we're watching live peaceful protesters all right reporters getting shot reporters getting shot get getting her ass yes and and to think oh it's just Robert blows I mean have you seen these wounds and she's like this is tear gas rubber bullets flashbang grenades people losing size her she's actually a friend of mine Linda really lost her eye yeah yeah wine in that eyes horrific and you and just a bead on her because she's she's actually a really important voice she came to prominence because she wrote a piece about the struggle that she had experienced as a low-income working class person like just really raw and honest and that went viral and she from that was able to write a book and become a journalist so she's one of the few journalists voices who actually has any connectivity to what regular people go through day to day so you know I mean it's just like awful to see that sort of thing happening to her and to so many others yeah and I mean Joe one of the things I always appreciate about your commentary was about about talking about human violence and like the propensity to violence and how thin kind of the veneer of social order and so much of like what that is and what it actually means to like live in a society where whenever you see something like that breakdown and I've just been thinking about that so much like in the context of what we see right now because I mean it's all so crazy like to see footage of people just like they feel like they can just loot with impure right I mean you're like last night in New York City it's total destruction I mean there's there's a giant failure on de Blasio's part right he's incorporating this ancient strategy of letting people burn out this is there's a strategy that they employed in the 1960s in fact Giuliani was just talking about this in an interview the difference between the wind when he ran New York City you could say what you want about Giuliani but one thing he did do is he made it safer he made New York City a safer place to be but probably you know the crime rates did go down across the country in all cities though not just in New York during that time that's good but in New York particularly it was a crime-ridden City and it went down while he was there I'm sure across the country had helped as well but what happened in New York City was he's letting these people loot yeah he's telling the cops to stand down so these businesses that are all supporting the mayor supporting the tax and with taxes supporting the police officers they're watching their businesses get smashed and looted Fifth Avenue is destroyed yeah sixth Avenue destroyed hundreds and hundreds of buildings with smashed windows and all their products gone and then you see but then you also see like you know police SUVs driving into protesters and you know tear gassing indiscriminately so to me it's not a question of there's a big harder or more aggressive policing it's the tactics that make make no sense here's why we're a discreet protesters should be allowed to protest right there's a giant difference between what those people are doing when they're saying this is outrageous we need change we need a radical overhaul of the system right because there's too many corrupt cops let those people do what they're doing but they're not looting see the looters are different people this is Japan this has been the hardest thing for Krista lying to cover like it's funny because we're coming on here and we were like and we know all the attention is kind it's like this there is nothing else that where the battle lines are so drawn where frankly there's probably the biggest difference in our philosophy on this because I agree with you Jo I mean I think and I've told this aggressive which is that the beacon was sent out when that Minneapolis mayor let that target go and they let those affordable housing complexes burn and they let the police Inc burn that was it and it was just all across the city and this was an intentional choice this was out of political correctness they're like we don't want to deploy the police because that would seem like we're impugning upon these protesters and we're nowhere and they allowed I mean they allowed this target and this and it just went and it caught fire and that's why like as he said look if people want people should be able to protest in this country and if there are piece-of-shit cops who kick them in the face you know I've seen terrible videos some of these things some of the things that they're doing awful but you can't allow looting you can't allow this businesses I mean and this is the thing I wanna Memphis I mean these look people are like oh you know it's just property but sometimes it's corporate property but sometimes this is a whole guy's life you think that guy has insurance but you know here's the thing and why the where there's such hypocrisy not from Sagar who's been consistent on this but from the right in general is like the response to current a virus lit forty percent of small businesses on fire right they didn't care it's opportunistic caring about it now mostly from the right and there's also look if you think about if you think about rule of law right you think about law and order and how do you get to a place where I disagree with you I don't think it is all different people it's very easy to be like oh it's Ellen Tifa or outside shares or whatever I don't think that's all true there are certainly criminals who are opportunistically using the breakdown of the moment to you know to loot to vandalize to do whatever that they're going to do but I think what is harder to recognize reckon with is that you have actually quote-unquote ordinary typically law-abiding people who feel like the the moment has broken down to that the extent that they would also engage in those kinds of acts that's a harder thing to deal with but when you think about the moment that we're living in like the the rules and the laws that have been set have never been that far from like that disconnected from what is moral and what is just if you look at four trillion to corporations and everyone else mass unemployment and small businesses destroyed with when you look at the fact that of those officers who murder George Floyd only one of them has been charged the other three are still free they haven't been arrested they've been charged am in anything and meanwhile you've got you know 4050 of the legitimacy of rule of law and law and order that leads to not just outside ads hairs or white Nash's or Russia or anti-fur whoever it is that people are pretending that this is doing all of this to where you have regular citizens who are like [ __ ] this I am going to be out there among them I'm gonna be defacing our walk you know in DC I walk by the Department of the Treasury and it's got black lives matter scrawled on it right they're intentionally going the high-end parts of town like this is actually in many cases very political and very specific I think that's a harder thing to have to reckon with that that dividing line between these are the good law-abiding ones and these are the bad ones and let's just crack down on the bad ones that line has become very blurry and that's why it's such an incredibly hard situation I agree with a lot of what you said yeah but when we're talking about protesters and the cops shooting and attacking protesters you're really talking about people just standing there protesting yeah what I'm talking about is people actually in the act of looting yeah when they cross that line there's no justification for smashing into someone's business and stealing their goods I understand that people are upset that four trillion dollars went to these corporations I think the logic from the right about this was if we you fund the corporations and keep them running they'll employ these people and keep the society running as smoothly as possible during this unprecedented pandemic let me pick up on that Joe because what it is is that you're right that was the philosophy but it's often a mistaken one and there is actually a better option which is what we talk about so much and what crystal said which is you're right from the right there's a lot of concern trolling around small businesses when let's be honest they allowed a cap to the White House I mean advisors or Senate Republicans allowed a cap to be put on the Paycheck protection program which was for small businesses they allowed that to go capped and allowed it to go dry and had political fights about it there was always been an option to put you know this is a right-left thing senator Josh Holley senator Cory Gardner and I think it's congresswoman Pramila jeyapaul they have plans to put Americans on their payroll to have the federal government subsidize that payroll up until until the end of this Great Depression and in that way you keep businesses together right you keep businesses you have they have the Paycheck protection program you have the workers they aren't to go on unemployment or anything and you can scale that up and no business has to go out they don't have to fail they don't have to do all this so for me this shemitah houses 40 million plus an employee being employed we had an intentional government policy of unemployment that was our policy was like let's have millions math okay what would you rather do if you have a pandemic that look what it turned out to be was a big difference from what we thought it was going to be I was very different we thought I was gonna kill 10% of the people we thought it's gonna be a devastating pandemic that was gonna sweep through the country and all our friends were going to die that's we thought right turns out to not be the case we're lucky well in in some ways when they were trying to figure out a way to mitigate this situation yeah they decided we're gonna shut down society right because we want to protect lives over money right what would you have done well the alternative look there was always going to be pain there's no doubt about that and you can't you know legislate away from that but other countries did it much better and they spent less money where they essentially nationalize payrolls so people stay attached to their jobs but they don't they aren't going in it is still shut down what countries did it's much smaller countries right yeah certainly but actually in terms of their percent of GDP and all that yeah it could have been it could have been done much much but they did it for the airlines so the airline bailout which was custom written included a provision that you have to keep your workers and so we're gonna give you this money and basically backstop payroll and so look I mean they're messing around and then as soon as the sends they want to still lay people off but if you backstop the payroll and essentially nationalize it especially in our country where your health insurance is tied to your job so now not only do have people are unemployed but they're losing their health insurance during a pandemic that just compounds everything and it is absolutely unconscionable meanwhile you know Galatz of big corporations got like custom written legislation for themselves and 40% of small businesses told the Chamber of Commerce that they will be closing their doors of the next six in terms of the cost I'm fairly certain that Pramila jeyapaul one over three months was six hundred billion so yeah it's a lot of money but you know three you know 2.3 trillion was the first one extra couple hundred billion for the paycheck protection program in the scale of what we did is especially we include the four trillion with the Federal Reserve the money was not the problem that money is not this is an issue of political will is this something that could have been agreed upon by both parties is there something that could have gone through by the corporate left in the corporate right no way so what would you have done see if you had a magic wand and you were the president like how do you how do you mitigate this how do you this is my biggest frustration with the White House which is that you have this populist president who like actually understands like very much why he got elected but you have so many you has all these people who work for him from kind of the old regime basically was allowed to staff up and those are the people who were like let's cap the Paycheck protection program who are like hey you know we just passed this to this two point three trillion dollar plan or what this well let's look wait and see how it goes as the you know the unemployment numbers began to take up mass small business failure all these other things and that's the fundamental tension of the Trump administration is that there was no like there were no professional populace so to speak right like there was no professional apparatus of people on the right who actually held and understood why Donald Trump is president states and this is like this is what gets back to what I talked about earlier about the incentive structure about that system the think tank the revolving door that is an effort to maintain power over the policy sphere because if you control that it doesn't matter what the people think yeah yeah I mean he matters what happened here's here's why I was because I mean look he's the president and he makes his own choices and if he understood like that there was this need to go more economically left and do it then he could he could do it but the reality is he spent his whole most of political capital his first term like giving a wave tax cuts to corporations the same thing any other Republican would have done so that's why I sort of roll my eyes I don't think he cares about anything outside of like winning the day's news cycle I really don't think he gives a [ __ ] about anything other than that you know I mean see this is this is the thing though I mean I've met Trump have interviewed him a couple of times for five to four times I think and what does he like exactly what you see exactly what you see on TV same guy do you feel like you got through the layers to talk to a human ya know because he's always you know my favorite thing I ever asked Trump I was like what are people gonna remember you for in a hundred years and he's a veteran's choice and I was like I'm gonna go out on a limb that's probably not it right Jesus I'm like sitting in there I occurred with Mema Trump like I'm in the oval and like you're like man that's sort of like Kissinger was sitting like man that's the JFK picture and like Eisenhower least I don't think he thinks about any of them what did he mean by veterans choice that he chose the veterans to know that he was taking care of veterans through like a veteran's health care going off like why he would you know like all his basically like the talking points like why he's great but but I realized I'm like Trump lives completely in the moment and he doesn't really have that like he doesn't really think about things in that historical context well this is faster than the briefings he pays attention if his name's brought up they throw his name in there every now and again I feel like we deserve him and he's the perfect present for this time think think about I think you're so right and to make it like a not a partisan thing our politics are so shallow hollow theatre cable news base they're like Twitter politics and you can see it not just with Trump who's like the ultimate incarnation of that but during this pandemic Andrew Cuomo is like the celebrity governor Democrats are like we gotta get him in there he's amazing he's your New York had the worst outbreak of any state and that's not all on him but it is partly on him how was it so let me tell you a couple things yes in part yes but also they shut down later right then other places like Washington like California which had much lower outbreak he mandated that nursing homes take back in 43 percent of coronavirus deaths are nursing homes this is a nursing home panic mandated that they take back in recovering kovat patients and he happens that he got a you know million dollar plus campaign check for his re-election through affiliated committee before he got reelected and so he also put made sure to put into place a liability for all their executives so if they don't do a good job that can't be held liable and that data shows is correlated with increased vyd death and infection rates because they know that they're not gonna be held responsible so there's a lower threshold there so there were very specific decisions that were really bad and fueled the worst outbreak in the entire country but because you can get on TV and give a command and press conference that's all people really care about he's got like 80% approval ratings yeah has he spoken about the recovering kovat patients being readmitted to the nursing homes not much because his brother on CNN is prime time anchor Chris Cuomo and they do these ridiculous interviews where they like joke around about how big as noses rather than asking questions like that and look it'd be one thing if you were gonna have your brother on once or twice funny you know but no night after night after night it's the show of the two brothers chumming it up while people are dying this is a politician who's supposed to be held to account that is the police to be rolling around with his brother joking about the size of their nose in the swab well there are like literally thousands of elderly people who died because explicitly because of this decision now we're not saying nuweiba decision but like there needs to be some like scrutiny and accountability of that nobody at CNN wants to touch it because Chris Cuomo is the anchor nobody at MSNBC wants to touch it because he's the biggest Democrat and they all live in New York and they all probably had dinner with each other and of course I mean people on the right are talking about it because he's a Democrat but there's no I mean outside Bristol and a few others on the left you all right and on the right they're total hypocrites to Fox News picks it up with this like liability story and how he gets this through meanwhile Mitch McConnell's proposing the same thing at a national level and they're like a ok with that so I mean this gets back to the sort of central concept of the show we just hope we don't do that shape you know like you [ __ ] up on this thing like let's talk about it if it's a Republican we're gonna do the same thing and that's the way I mean on a basic level that's always supposed to be and it it's a big big problem again going back to this moment that we're living in because no one trusts anyone for good reason even if you are an MSNBC watcher and you know it and you love it and you love Rachel Maddow and whatever you know you're getting spun you know that they're taking certain stories that are gonna like pique your interest and they're ignore but the end of every the lesson of every single news story cannot be ergo Trump is bad like that cannot be the conclusion of literally every news story and over on fox news the end conclusion of every news story cannot be ergo democrats are evil and unamerican right every week we all know this no people are not that stupid no they're not and I couldn't agree more and that's one of the things I find very refreshing about your show is that you guys don't exhibit that kind of partisanship you just say what you think people are [ __ ] up you say I have one old phone that I could check it really four or five days yeah and then my phone that I connect with with friends just that [ __ ] thing moves around smart very wise I just think that you have to develop strategies to protect your consciousness you know you really do well especially your level I can't imagine it's it's unmanageable so I don't manage it just keep moving let's keep moving stay busy yeah stay busy and don't take yourself seriously and just keep moving yes yeah I feel like there's a real movement towards what you guys are doing though I feel like it's the future because I feel like people are fed up with that Chris Cuomo [ __ ] they're fed up with that Rachel Maddow [ __ ] and no disrespect to either one of those those people but like I was with Chris Cuomo was doing some thing in the day and I was watching him where he's basically justifying riots yeah and I was like how man did someone write this for you is this how you really feel did you think this out for this I think I've all I could get from that is Trump needs to be removed from office so let's come up with some sort of a reason why he's responsible for these riots and these riots are good and these rides have been historically done when people feel powerless and weak that's all true I look it's it's a terrible position to be a young person right now and this is what you see when you're seeing looting you see a lot of these [ __ ] young white kids that have probably not a political thought and they're [ __ ] dopey heads and they just run in to get free Nikes and that's really what's going on yeah I've watched about a hundred videos of people looting I might have seen four black people it's all white kids stealing sneakers so it's kind of amazing right and this is I mean this is what really gets me which is that this is a pro George Floyd's family has come out and said please stop violence keys I mean how many times you see that well you remember Rodney King yeah can we all get along and I think I think that's like that peace understanding who and why is important to understanding what to do right because if it's just what I have seen hasn't just been you know in terms of looting I don't know specifically but I think it's very easy to say oh it's just this type of person it's just that type of person and to take out of it any of the sort of like more radical not just smashing up stores and that kind of stuff but like graffiti and more you know defying curfews and those sorts of things and so if if you view the problem is just like violent protesters we have to deal with that then that merits one response and that's the direction the Trump is going in is like call in the military which i think is [ __ ] scary like calling in active-duty military in every city in the country like we saw with the protesters who got you know the tear gas and rubber bullets in front of the White House or peacefully protest I mean that [ __ ] to me is scary and frankly the fact that Democrats and quote-unquote journalists on TV have acted like the world is ending every time Trump does anything when he does do something like invoke the insurrection act and say we're looking at sending the military into American cities there is no more language of this is unprecedented this is outrageous this is you know different than what we've seen in the past left because they've burned that up once the critical thing that that Trump has ever done they have cried you that's exactly the case because I do think that this is a very different and very dangerous and volatile moment but if you think that the protests are about the the structure of a system that doesn't allow any redress for you know problems that people have been peacefully protesting about for a long [ __ ] time and not a thing has been done if you think the protests are about you know political system that will offer you the quote-unquote choice of Donald Trump who's like the Central Park five dude and red lighting with his daddy and denying black people housing and Charlottesville's find people on both sides versus Joe Biden who wrote the 94 crime bill is unrepentant for it it was justifying against with Charlamagne just recently and saying Hillary's wrong to apologize it for it etcetera etcetera who as part of this whole thing went out and said you know police shouldn't be shooting people in the heart and said they should shoot him in the leg like train him to do that like when you look at those two choices you [ __ ] choices this that's right if you understand that as the legitimate part of the protest then your response is going to be very different than it's just like oh these are bad people these are people wish además terrorists we have to crack down on them let's call in the military that [ __ ] ultimately never works because look at 19 years in Afghanistan what do we learn yeah you can take the ground you can't hold it you can't hold a society together with an aggressive militarized response that's not gonna work over time so if that's your only strategies like okay then what then what are you gonna do or we have curfews at 1:00 p.m. every day our you know military's holding down American cities every day because you have a significant chunk of the population that will no longer consent so I think that I think on this particular one this is probably where we disagree the most because and and she pointed this out which is that to me it's about the restoration of law and order and and look I mean this is why you saw these see aunt joy read right I mean these people were putting out conspiracy theories that action so what here's what have I done oh what that is which is we'll begin with the timeline which is that the timeline was you know at first the Minneapolis the target got looted you know the affordable housing complex went down everybody decided okay violence looting everything is fine so they're basically justifying it on cable then what happened is a second night happened a lot more violence and protests were police and firefighters weren't visible so Minnesota authorities started lying about how actually every single person arrested was out of state not true local news went and they found these poor mayor st. Paul mentioned on camera and said every one of the people that was arrested was did not have a Minnesota address that was a blatant [ __ ] ID for some of them were from the town and here's this so why is it why is it that because then they start laundering through joy read at MSNBC that it's actually a bunch of Russians and white nationalists I [ __ ] you not you can pull you and how was that lady still on TV oh especially with their blog post but the real thing again if you are wrong in ways that it's okay the reason I'm burying up Reid is because the legitimacy for the use of force for these people it only applies if it's Russians or white nationalists you're allowed to crack down on that whereas so look on the military front let's think about our history Eisenhower 1957 calls in 101st Airborne Division in order to forcibly integrate Little Rock High School to stop to allow the Little Rock Nine tend to that school because a white supremacist violent mob and the local authorities could not be trusted to do so I think that's a legitimate use 1967 f LBJ calls in the military to race riots in Detroit I think that's legitimate Rodney King George HW Bush calls in the Marines in order restore order you have to restore and crack down exactly on the people we're talking about these criminals a lot of more sociopaths and criminals just taking advantage of this situation and from that forward we have to move and act within the political system now crystal seems to think I think that acting within the political system is just not a choice at this point but I disagree because I mean even if you're on the Left like Joe Biden out today saying he endorses this Hakeem Jeffries bill on banning police chokehold right why but why is anyone paying attention right now I'm not talking about violence and by the way majority's violence I've been saying has been coming from the cops and there's never as much focus the example of you know that could send you some video teaser I mean I've seen some stuff to you and I'm justifying anything but I've also seen some unconscionable tactics from the police one person and there's no focus anytime on that I've seen police inciting and creating the dangerous situation do I have any confidence that given what we saw on TV with the military police coming in and tear gassing and rubber bullets put peaceful populations that this is going to they're gonna go come in as peacekeepers in these stated cities absolutely not if you bring the military in you were starting a war you're not ending violence you're escalating violence and that's the thing let me ask you this I think local law enforcement I mean if the cities aren't up to it fine they can call in the National Guard but well that's the military for the President to bring in the American military into cities across the country without local consent I think it's insane and is only saying that if they don't use the National Guard think about the context of if you saw this happening in other country right it's it's hard to like look at our own country through you know neutral lens if you looked at a foreign country and you heard that their president was bringing in the military to quash protesters would you be like oh this is gonna go great no he's not bringing the military squash protesters bringing the military stop how can you see the difference but how can you say that when we see TV just shooting rubber bullets and tear gas at peaceful protesters we're not supporting that right we're talking about what's going on in New York City you stop people from breaking into law-abiding people do that that's what we're saying the military agreement them even using the National Guard isn't trained to do that that isn't what the other way we don't have the military do local law enforcement I mean one of the big problems of local law enforcement has actually been the militarization which occurred after 9/11 which occurred under Barack Obama as well when you roll tanks into American streets and you treat the citizens like this is a war you escalate the violence so my point is if you are opposed to the violence sending in the military is exactly the wrong thing to do yes people shouldn't what people should have their property protected but you're you're not saying what the right thing to to us better policing media police are going to have to do the same thing that the National Guard would do arrest people for smashing windows and breaking into buildings they just might have the resources to handle something on the scale that you're seeing in Manhattan see I think this is where this is this is the issue which is that when people like you and I who are against police violence who are against and acknowledge this action we have a solution these people should be fired and should be enquiries on that yes but there's no solution than I hear from the left on how do you stop rioting and looting when the governor of the state of New York refuses to act I'll give you a solution okay but there's in the immediate term there's no D you can de-escalate the situation all the Trump is doing right now by calling for the military and create create strain is in a war zone is escalating the violence and radicalized yes so for example and I know this sounds hokey but this is true if he had come out last night instead of having military police shooting tear gas and rubber bullets and flashbang grenades and crushing these protesters if he had come out with that same cast characters bill Barr and whoever else was with him and taken money for 8 minutes and 45 seconds the amount of time that you know George Floyd had that knee on his neck until he does write us he can't do that and then if he had instead of saying I'm gonna send the military in and crush these protesters and by the way he's deeming them terrorists right our fellow citizens he's saying these are terrorists if he had instead offered actual like no one's gonna solve this problem overnight but you can offer a few pieces of legislation or at least an Alf branch then you start to de-escalate rather than radicalizing rather than rather than going the police state military state way which never ends well I mean give me an example over say when does this ever end well okay well you never hold on we've never had this before we've never had people smashing windows all down Manhattan you look at Fifth Avenue is insane right now it looks like a bomb went off and shattered every window within five city blocks I go back to our history Joe because we have done this before MLK and DC called in 13,000 troops in order to but I'm saying it has like use again like the military does law whenever these local authorities refused to do it and look in the immediate term like first of all I mean I don't think and the left would give him a heavy credit whatsoever if he did you know do any of what was just suggested there but second which is that this is just the fundamental difference conservative and liberal disposition which is that there are some bad people out there who you can show them as much compassion as you want they're still going to loot and fall they're still gonna loot they're still going to criminalize there's no such thing as like de-escalation in the in the most near term when people are actively as you said looting the streets of New York and so if the governor of the state of New York refuses to call these if these states and these like I said police not the governor's the mayor so the mayor and I think the government actually wants to remove the may displace this is the thing about may you know the Minnesota the Minnesota police and and all of that which is that they refused out of political correctness in order to crack down immediately upon people who work the very small group of people who are violent criminals that's what allowed this thing to go national and now people are and this is it's part of our history we have done it before and again labor look after the after the El Paso shooting I heard all from the left all of a sudden we need the FBI in order to crack down on the I agree I think that these violent white supremacist organizations should be taken down and if they're out there marching and they're committing violence they should absolutely be knocked out and this is the point which is where I pointed to why they started to blame Russians and white Nationals because they realized this was going against them they only view it as legitimate whenever they're using force to quash aside which is not which is that they agree with and that they don't do it whenever it's a political cause they do but that thing is happening which is right though which is the one second is this is selective application of justice and this is exactly what they're worried about which is that I have a better idea you enforce the rule of law and law and order against violent white supremacists and against violent looting criminals who take advantage of a legitimate protest against the horrific death of so I think that's part of where the breakdown in our views occurs because I think it's fantasy I think it's fantasy to a mad that you could trust this president to deploy force in a responsible way and we've already seen that like that's not it's not a debatable point because we've already seen him abused that force with peaceful protesters and by the way the First Amendment is also a sacred right that is part of why I loved this country that should be protected which is being overwhelmingly quashed by force right now in this country by bad policing by you know this president and what he did with those peaceful protesters and the idea that bringing the military in is going to de-escalate is going to solve the problem I think that's just a fantasy look I don't know that you know I don't know that the response to the Rodney King riots or to the 68 riots is really the thing to emulate either and the question again is not is it good to lewd is it good to of course not no one is saying that my question is what then let's say you bring in the quash and like you put what then what then there's no there is no plan for how do we we've had these debates we've had these marches we've had the outrage we've had all of it and it never ever changes and so you got a lot of people out there doing [ __ ] that they shouldn't be doing but they feel like finally all are paying attention I'm statistically history in the country statistically it is changing statistically there's less people getting shot and killed by cops than ever before that that statistically I believe that all these protests and all these people but I'm not just talking about police brutality because I see the the policing issue as existing within a much larger problem which is a society that dehumanizes which is a society that is cruel I mean it's sort of like what we're talking about on on social be the good people and the bad people and we've divided society like the worthy people who are treated like human beings people like us so ever needs cater to it and are like emotionally like coddled and all of that and people who are treated like less than and those people are disproportionately black and brown but that's the underclass of America that is more when I'm talking to and the policing system that we have is to protect this group and to police that group and that's the part that has not changed I mean we see we see the vast inequality we see the people who are now laid off who don't have hope in their life that things are going to be better for their kids than it is for them and that's the piece that I'm talking about so yeah bring in the military quash and put a gun to their head you know put a curfew at 1 p.m. lock down the country you might solve the problem of looting the Gucci outlet right but what then where do you go from there and that's the part and I'm not on the piece with with Trump and they're like he's doing the same thing in terms of saying oh this is all an Tifa and they're all terrorists and that justifies these kinds of actions and to me that is what is truly scary because if you really were saying let's just go after the bad ones and you had someone that you really choke a maybe that's one thing but that you're trying to paint everyone who is involved in these protests as essentially other as essentially terrorists that to me is what is terrifying well I think he actually addressed it saying that there's people that are protesting that have a legitimate concern and that this is a real issue and the real problem that happened and huge people to stop the lawless behavior right where it has nothing to do with George Floyd they're just smashing windows and stealing things on a split screen wit like he's saying those words on a split screen with military police cracking down on regular peaceful hundred percent preschool protesters like you and I are in agreement with peaceful protesters yeah we all in agreement protest actually I don't think there's anything wrong with it I think it's a great thing and I think that just a high-profile nature of this should raise awareness and hopefully these police administrators and the people that are in charge are gonna get their [ __ ] together and get rid of these bad cops right when you see this guy who did this is George Floyd you realize this guy's had a decade and this loss that's my complaints against him there are similar shooting people assaulting people you know ok this is let's let's think about this too which is that from the very beginning I think the left is blown is so badly Sean Hannity Rush Limbaugh and Donald Trump all universally agreed that what happened to George Floyd was that that cop was a criminal I've never seen one person say exactly and yet immediately it devolves into approach and protest fine protest because that county prosecutor did not file a charge against George Floyd the cop who killed George Floyd immediately and that is what sparked the initial protest there is absolutely nothing wrong with that protest but then the line became let's justify the rioting and the looting let's tell you where we're not necessarily ok with it but it's part of a broader systemic critique and then of course America revolted against that right now at the polling just came out right before we here 58 percent of Americans say they support using the military to supplement police force this you know I mean I'm a populist one of the things I think about so much more in my politics 50 plus 1 solutions what are 50 plus 1 solutions that we can get to on economics that we can get to about our immigration system about trade about the way we order our society and I'm against the elites who pushed down upon the majority and use their corporate influence in order to pass against that 58 percent of Americans right now are asked are basically completely support using the military in order to supplement police effort because they understand that what is happening right now is unconscionable and even let's take a purely working-class issue of this which is that I saw a video of a crying elderly American black elderly black American woman talking about these protesters burned down my grocery store they burned down everywhere I shop she even said I would rather be where George is right now talking about George Floyd because of what happened to her I mean we have seen these homeless a homeless man in Austin whose mattress was just needlessly burned by these criminals in fringes to taunt him just we've seen both in business owners who have been beaten savagely beaten by looting criminals with no police presence that is not that this shows you that the establishment of law and order and keeping law and order is a benefit one of the ways that we protect the most vulnerable in our population and the most vulnerable in our population are working-class Americans they're the ones have to clean this [ __ ] up by the way like I drove through you know DC it was I ride my scooter going around there through the and I see all these working-class merc with the you know they have to take the glass they have to put the board's up who are the people who are not being able to go to work right now after we just had the worst economic crisis are still in the midst of the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression so justification of rioting and looting and the destruction of the small businesses and not having a way in order to deal with that is anti working-class but beyond that crystal asked a great question which is okay so after what do we do and this is where you're right which is the right does not agree the right the right just wants to stop it but no 50% of black Americans right now do not have a job in this country because of the explicit choice made by Senate Democrats and Senate Republicans not to adopt the payroll program that we are right now it's never been at a better time in America to go and to look at that payroll production program and I really encourage people in order to go in to look at that proposal because I don't think it's gotten nearly enough attention and not enough Republicans and Democrats are being pressed on whether they support something like that so here's my solution yeah we have the you know we restore order in America and then we need to make sure that people are taking care of not through just distributed non unemployment benefits but through actually having putting these businesses making them hole through a paycheck protection program using you know the halle plan in order to do eighty percent of American workers payroll so they can go back and remain intact and then we can scale that up with the reopening because I think you were talking about this here on the podcasts like these restaurants right like restaurant businesses even in the best of times 100 percent capacity is [ __ ] hard to run around right and limited the problem is that it's not gonna happen I mean [ __ ] are Mitch McConnell's already like we're not coming back we're not doing anything else I mean that and that's really where we're stuck like I'm not trying to adjust it for like but that sort of stuff is absolutely unconscionable like smashing up some one small business that they've worked on absolutely unaccepting absolutely unacceptable I don't want to ignore the fact that much of the violence I have seen has come from cops which is why I think bringing in the military only increases the level of violence but that's where things are so stuck I think dr. Cornel West who I know you had on I love that program by the way that you did with him love him he said we are living in America as a failed social experiment his failed to provide for the economic health and dignity needs of its citizens and so yes figure out how to deal with the the violent elements and and yet it peaceful etc but the idea that you're going to crack down and take the pressure off and then the change is gonna happen that's not gonna happen and it's why we are truly stuck because you have such a large percent of the population which does feel that nihilistic which does feel like the choices on the bat you know go vote like President Obama he's always say don't boo vote like we they've been doing that and it hasn't really changed their material outcomes for their life that's a part of the show that I think we more or less agree on is like how little choice is offered to people in terms of actually improving their material well-being and having their interests looked out for by Washington DC and so yeah when you push people that far with 40 percent say burn it all down it's a it's you are asking for exactly the tinderbox that were saying right 40 percent of people willing to answer polls most people like I'm busy I have [ __ ] to do but the people ISM that I see some so much of that element of the left in particular like Cornell what the failed social experiment it just ignores like that extraordinary things can happen through political change and even if they do want political change like a friend of our show said Gilani I mean heat side of these studies coming out of 1968 where you can see explicitly that nonviolent protests dramatically increased support for the civil rights movement and that whenever it would turn violent that it would turn against them and that in in one study in particular showed that it led to the election of Richard Nixon which is something but I don't see that the protesters are violent violent like the the association of the violence yes the protest movement I think it's just opportunists that are taking think there's a giant percentage of what's going on as opportunities taking advantage of this movement in the chaos I totally agree I feel like what Cornel West is saying one of the reasons why it resonates is if they have so much money for the bailouts they have so much money to take care of people during covet for these corporations so much money to deal with this why didn't they invest that money in fixing all these problems that have happened in these cities that have had a long deep history of economic problems yes I mean you know I lived in Kentucky and Appalachian Lake choice like make it Universal so everybody buys in but that's exactly I mean we had this whole Democratic primary and every debate it was like well how are you gonna pay for it but then the moment that the stock market crashed it was like here's four trillion dollars good shot so it just exposes that's that's part of the moment that we have done or stands it just exposes the fact that all of this idea that we can do anything to help you and I'm so sorry there's not money and that the system is fundamentally fair has been completely exposed as a lie the fit system has never been fundamentally fair but people have tried their best to make it as fair as possible while supporting the special interest group that put them into power while trying to keep up with the demands their constituents it's a mess one of my favorite things I talk about is what crystal and I really want to try and do or especially for me is I want to make it the cynical choice in order to do the right thing that's the hardest game in politics because that's what the special interested right like you it's the cynical choice in order to pass the subsidy or do the bailout for acts and not for why because you know you're gonna get a job out on the other side or you know that you're gonna benefit politically that's what we need to do we need to make it so that it's the cynical choice to show up for working-class people and right now I mean that's one of the things I really took note of which this Holly plan I'm talking about Cory Gardner from Colorado is the most vulnerable Republican in the United States Senate and he's signed on to that plan now he's running for reelection he was he was vulnerable for all of us even happened and I would that's him that's what you can try and capitalize on you can show people even if they're the most cynical Act I don't know anything about Cory I don't know why so I just want to make it clear but like if you can make it that it's the cynical choice to try and show up now that is an extraordinarily hard thing to do that is I'm not gonna sit here and pretend as if I don't talk about every single day about how the system is rigged in the political system in particular and who owns who but it there this is part of what I think we're on to about what like what the heterodox kind of space which is that there is an extraordinary support for efforts like this and if you can show these politicians if you do something like this you will get praise from crystal and sagar you will get an electoral benefit you will have the media it what this is the keys you need to build alternative ecosystem centers of power which are able to elevate that so that they know that they have somebody who's gonna have their back because right now if you go you know the standard line they're always gonna have right or the left to back you up at a time of crisis you'll have the money people will fundraise do you have to show people that by doing the right thing that that's where the best politics are and that's what we focus on in terms of the economic solutions and so much of what we advocate for on the show is to show people like I said 50 plus one solutions exist there is political opportunism to be had by just doing the right thing this was Trump I mean Trump's like innovation more than anything was running against standard GOP ideology in the 2016 primary run you know running on trade saying no maybe trades not always a good thing running hard on immigration which is something GOP voters have always wanted those two issues in particular went completely against Paul Ryan and so much of what they were advocating for but you could never say it because if you said it not gonna get on Fox if you didn't if you said it you're not gonna be in leadership the you know the Republicans aren't gonna fund raise money for you you know think tanks collar is gonna write fake studies and fake papers about how you're a liar that's exactly what he exposed that there's opportunity to be had there what we got to do is build up media and alternative organizations which show people that there is a cynic there is a way to be cynical there is a way because people are cynical people politicians in particular there is a way to act in your own self-interest and to do the right thing and I think that that's why I've looked at it as much more of a I don't look at it then that nihilistic way I look at it in a much more positive way which is the this did happen I mean something broke through and I'm not I don't think it's been perfect but it's something which we can capitalize on and build over decades because I think God knows I mean people need it right now it's the worst economic crisis this is a Great Depression well I think were you and I agree is that law and order needs to be re-established and one of the reasons why I think that it needs to be reestablished is there's a fire of consciousness and this fire is you're allowed to loot and smash and steal and people are doing that now and I don't think they're doing it in the memory of George Floyd and I think you got to put that fire out because once you allow people to do it like the Blasio did in New York City and force the police to stand back people know they can get away with it I've seen some horrific things people running over people with cars and smashing into buildings and it's [ __ ] madness when madness happens you have to crackdown you have to do something about it that's where I support whether it's the National Guard or if the police have the resources use the police but something has to be done when you're saying like president Trump de-escalating on television that is not going to do a goddamn thing about those kids smashing windows it's not going to change their attitude they're not watching the news they're not paying attention they know they have a very simplistic perspective George Floyd this is bad black lives matter chaos smashed that window take that [ __ ] they're not gonna say hey you know when Trump got on his knees I was going to loot Gucci but I'm not gonna do that anymore like that there's both fake [ __ ] on both sides yeah here's got to do something to stop the fire you got to put that fire out then deescalate but first the fire has to stop because there's a it's an obvious mob mentality thing because no one's ever seen this before no one's and there's a Santa Monica who's you got running around with a gun pointing it at people people are driving into [ __ ] people and knocking them over it's crazy not something that anyone expected seven days ago and [ __ ] and it is a sign of like a breakdown of a society it's like they're storm there's no despair from three months of not working is unprecedented you've never at a time where through no fault of your own you are broke you can't pay for food you can't pay your mortgage you can't pay your rent you're [ __ ] and there's no jobs I had it's not like there's anything these kids can go out and do to better their position the amount of jobs that existed just three months ago it's drastically reduced so there are opportunities which are already slim to none have you know we're talking about people getting out of college in 2020 that how bad their economic opportunities are before all this comparison too much how about if you're coming out of high school yes and aren't gonna go to college I mean most people don't go to college right and so a people missing smash my only my only point is that the military is not a solution is the solution though well the solution is to actually do something about the material condition ultimately right now there's a solution about the fire how do you put out the fire because there's a fire when these people are smashing windows all down Fifth Avenue that's a fire right but I think where we view it differently is that in my view the tactics the aggressive tactics that the police have used have only made that worse no no right so my view is if you bring in the military first of all I find it I find all of I think we are getting far too comfortable and this is partly part of the perfect storm with the pandemic like we've become very comfortable with all these extreme limitations on our actions behavior wearing the masks in public which creates a level of anonymity like all of that goes into this so when when we have a curfew imposed of 1 p.m. or 5 p.m. or 6 p.m. we're just good to go with that but that should be taken in and of itself very seriously as an infringement on First Amendment rights I agree so my point is that if you bring in the military it is frightening in terms of our liberties our ability to protest our First Amendment rights which are incredibly important and I think ultimately only leads to additional violence yeah things going around in circles here because I agree with you on all those things and I am a hundred percent in support of the people protesting right people that are walking on the street with signs about George Floyd and black lives matter I'm a hundred percent in favor of that it's the looting so how do you stop the looting you've got to do something to stop the looting if you don't stop the looting it is going to [ __ ] continue stop tear gassing protesters and start focusing on don't think so they started tear gassing protestors after the looting after all that [ __ ] got crazy that's when they started cracking down on the protest I think it's a mistake because I don't think they're connected I think the people that are doing all the looting and the Smashing are not the people that are peacefully protesting and there's a ton of videos of people who were screaming it but there's a one video of this girl who's yelling at these these girls in front of a Starbucks that are spray-painting black lives matter it's an african-american girl and these white girls white that look that's a huge part of this whole thing which is that there's just upper middle class white liberalism and their inability I mean just as a whole element of white guilt and so much more there's an entire industrial industrial complex set up to make white people and upper middle class white people in particular feel uncomfortable condemning looting and violence in this particular scenario even though everybody agrees with you Joe I mean pretty much everybody is like yeah protests are fine looting is bad protests are been great right and what happened to George Floyd was [ __ ] up that's like 1 2 3 95% of people in this in this country would agree with something like that and so that's why I think that that I mean look at and that shows you that there is again a political way to be forged here which is like like you said nobody thinks that this nobody was defending George Floyd no one I mean like Rush Limbaugh and Sean I just thought this whole thing about Sean Hannity was like you know the mark as a martial artist like putting his hold on the neck right stop right don't say that don't say what would you recommend for kids want to get it jujitsu because there's no head trauma or very little is that a CTE like a thing you know for sure my all-time functional Wow yeah if you've been hitting the head a bunch of times you most likely have it I mean from the time I was fifteen till I was 21 22 I was hit in the head almost every day like there's no getting around it you didn't get some form of brain damage how come there's not like a backlash against it like with the NFL well there is I mean it's more internal it's like I feel like the NFL it's it's more prevalent and I think that the impacts are more devastating when I watch those huge super athletes running at full clip and slamming into each other it's a [ __ ] car accident right and it's a car accident multiple times a week and these guys are doing well they were taking those big hits and training as well but there was a study on football players that found that between they tested high school all the way up to NFL and they said there was some staggering number of people that had CTE including high school kids Wow like if you had a son would you learn no [ __ ] way but I'd let them fight let me fight teach them how to fight correctly I would say look at you want to do this this is dangerous as [ __ ] but you can do it and there's great benefit in knowing how to fight there's a giant benefit if someone's trying to assault you and they don't know how to fight and you do it's huge isn't it a UFC fighter who was going who was like helping out with some of the looting or sorry John Cho yeah he was the greatest Jon Jones grab these [ __ ] [ __ ] kids that were about to spray-paint just gimme that sorry don't do P [ __ ] white kids and you just snatched their spray paint kit but John's out there boarding up smashed windows he's really trying to help you know you see that guy that is an ESPN reporter something Chris Palmer who was like cheering on looting and rioting and then like like right after he someone was like our neighboring gated community is being targeted now get the [ __ ] away it's like a perfect thing on Twitter like they're right in the back it's just look that gets what I think I was like white liberalism this is like so many these people would would be freaked out call the police if any of this thing ever happened but if happens in an affordable housing complex in Minneapolis then we can you know what has been interesting is that these riots have not just been in the poor neighborhood or in the black neighborhood I mean they have been all I think that's part of why people are so freaked out is they've been sort of intentionally in the wealthy parts of town is part of what makes it so unsettling for everyone across the board and so you know look I my only point is you know yes looting bad violence bad absolutely all of that but you can't imagine that the military is an answer to the situation I don't know what the answer is but when people see the chaos and the randomness of it all that's what's really frightening yeah when people saw what was happening happening in Minneapolis as there were direct result of a bad cop killing a man right that was handcuffed and not a threat whatsoever but then people say okay I get these people right then when you see them smashing windows in Beverly Hills you're like what the [ __ ] does this have to do with George Floyd like what is going on here and how are you justifying this and they're not but that's but that's the thing is it's not just a bad one bad cop or even just policing right I mean let's remember right it wasn't just one bad cop there three other guys gonna do it Louis Vuitton sure but what I'm saying is that's why this spread across the country is because the grievances aren't specific points are not the larger picture that one thing marches in protests not smashing the windows of Target you know and they did they did a target right down the street from here what the [ __ ] does that have to do with anything let's do nothing it has to do with lawlessness it has to do with people taking advantage of the situation and escalating also it's probably exciting people are locked up and bored as [ __ ] and now sudden they got something look it is in many ways similar to war and this is why because when people are they have a real cause and when war is going on there's a lot of people that I know that have served overseas and one of the hard kind of scary truths is it's some of the best times they're live yeah yeah I have Sebastian Junger wrote a great book about it called tribe it's a fantastic book there really gets to the psychology of it and you know this is a guy who was over there for long periods of time as a journalist when you are involved in this and you feel like you're fighting the good fight and you're like [ __ ] corporate America but you know you're [ __ ] twenty years old you believe that [ __ ] yeah you know my friend Bridget fantasy she's uh she's a brilliant writer and she's really hilarious and she she was talking about some papers that she found that she wrote when she was 24 and she was like those readings like holy [ __ ] like I was so dumb but I'm looking back back at it now as a grown grown-ass woman come what the [ __ ] was I doing what was I thinking I think that's what you're dealing with a lot of these idealistic kids they think they're gonna tear it all down and burn it to the ground but they don't know where their [ __ ] their cell phone comes from they don't know who makes their sneakers they don't know what it what it costs to keep the electricity on they have no [ __ ] they have no shoe in the game I mean but a lot of a lot of those young people though I mean look what is their life bed and they're graduating from college I know very well what the what the cost is and what the rent is and what it looks like for them in their life going forward and that's exactly what where that hopelessness and nihilism comes from and that's what's that's what really scares me is there's this idea I mean we're like I know it's easy to say but it really is true we've never seen any anything like this moment we're living through with mass unemployment Great Depression with pandemic with these polarized politics where nobody feels like any any hope of getting anything really accomplished through Washington you add to it the chaos and the streets and then there's no sign that this is all just gonna snap back to normal it doesn't seem like it's gonna snap back at all and this all happened like a snap that's what's really [ __ ] up so quick because it seemed like okay things were getting sort of off the rails off the rails off the rails and then all of a sudden it's just well from Mallory when they shut down New York City to shut down Los Angeles first and then it was like holy [ __ ] we're locked down at home but we were worried about a disease and you know I was actually encouraged during the early days because it seemed like people although scared we're at least it seemed like they're being nicer to each other and all the [ __ ] on Twitter seemed to have subsided because people were dealing with a real live Penn and they were really worried about their own life and the lives of their loved ones then as time dragged on as the pandemic was going into the second month and people were really desperate now to work economic despair kicks in anxiety kicks in and then people got shittier than ever people were mean and you said something to me in 1984 you [ __ ] I'm sorry that was me but it ripped up to a higher level than it was before this was just the way the lockdown was all handled right I'm terrible exactly it's like there was never any benchmarks there was never any real understanding and you know it's funny because if you go back we were one of the only people to be like sympathetic to the lockdown protesters we were like hey man like somebody steals your job like all the or somebody takes your job says you can't work and all this and then not necessarily giving you the economic benefits that you deserve that was something that we were very compassionate about I mean like I'm not saying we agreed at the time like we didn't really know but it was like extending that level of compassion to people who are put in that situation I think it's really important and that's just something the media I mean this is the thing we were just talking about before it's like Coronas over right like nobody's talking about it or maybe it's not I don't know but like I haven't seen anybody on cable news be like these terrible it happened like that the the sense of threat and this the story of the day shift didn't change that quickly and yeah I mean where do we go from here I think that's the thing that no one knows and we have this presidential election looming in November and politics has never felt sort of more irrelevant and that's really because I don't think Joe Biden's got a solution to this and Joe Biden just [ __ ] bailing out protesters sure if he's got a solution he already forgot it and this is the problem with the the way that the coalition's have broken down between the Democratic Party and the Republican Party is basically the Republican Party has this affluent portion that they cater to and then they have white working-class that they sort of culturally signal to and the Democratic Party has an affluent portion like the the [ __ ] hat like women's March type suburban affluent white women like that's who they cater to along with sort of business interests in Silicon Valley interest and then they culturally pander and signal to the black and brown working-class and then the incentive is always to keep everybody divided because if you actually had like a multiracial working class put together then that's where the real power would be so it's you know it's you have two parties basically that don't are very much invested in things staying as they are look riots in the streets pandemic mass unemployment in the stock market goes up right like I mean that's that's where we are that the people who already have wealth and power and position benefit no matter what happens right if there's a pandemic they benefit if there's you know mass unemployment they benefit it cuz it just show you the horseshit of what the stock market is though that's the thing about they feel good I mean if you look at that this is where I want to try and reclaim some level of positivity that's coming out of this thing which is that look I mean we we are in the mint it's only in these huge moments that you have an opportunity to actually do something there's a like great Lenin quote which is like something about like a in a week ten years can have ten years can feel like a week and then in a week ten years worth of change can happen I'm butchering it somebody can look around man don't let a good crazy phrase there's something to be said for that and I think that this is why I'm more optimistic from like the right than the left I mean the leftist made this like a kind of explicit decision to like you know like kill the Bernie Sanders movement realign around the white with a white upper-middle class suburbanite like Joe Biden is doing joga events like literally yoga events for women okay like he's not doing it I'll give them $1,000 right right like you still have people who are like people like Halle who are like pro xenix Trump is kind of the populist president and I mean look I have my I have a podcast called the realignment with my friend Marshall Kozlov like this is literally what we try and do and like we're working on a few more interesting things here but like what we try and do on the podcast is work through what are the actual policy positions that like a populist right would look like like a new trading relationship with China everyone's like oh decoupling like we got to stop doing trade with China what does that may actually mean or like on immigration like what does it actually mean to like restrict immigration in America like what levels like how does it does it even in fact wages like I would say yes and that's something that a lot of people have tried very hard to prove otherwise but it's about working and with it's about you can realign the Republican Party to not just have the white working class but you can have significant portions of the black and brown people of color all working class Americans that is a huge winning coalition for the right in order to move forward it only requires them to I wouldn't say move left on on economics but to move back to where you know to the Center on economics away from this more libertarian minded right and they're not using racist rhetoric do it is because it's always they're always gonna call you a racist they can't say they can't move right or can they can't move right on cultural issues because to them they're like shibboleths right like you have to have the cultural issues that's what stops it what was the term you ship it's like a biblical term like it's like I saw in a West Wing episode I was more depressed I guess during the phase of the pandemic when it just seemed like everyone was crushed and everyone was apathetic and everybody was just like in their basement or in their apartment wondering how they're gonna make rent next month or they were one of those frontline workers who was you know out on the front lines making 725 to risk their life it's that you know at CVS or whatever it was the the fact that people are in the streets especially of course the the people who are peaceful and who are enraged and who are actually taking matters into their own hands in that way like I actually find that too the most hopeful thing like imagine if if someone's life could be casually snuffed out like George Floyd's was and there wasn't a reaction and there wasn't rage like to me that would be a profoundly more troubling state of affairs than frankly what we're seeing right now no it's most troubling about that footage is that he knew who's being filmed No and then the bystanders are there saying what are you doing like does he have a pulse and it's so guy's hands in his pocket it's just so casual and he's well I don't think he I think he has him like this yeah he had black gloves on look like his hand was in his pocket it's hard to tell but the point is he was nonchalant about having his knee on this guy's neck also he's in like a drain so there's a divot there so there's like an edge that's pressed against his neck so he's got on one side he's got a knee on his neck on the other side he's got this cement drain the whole thing is horrific I mean the fact of those three cops just sat there and let him do that and didn't I don't understand I mean I don't know been charged that doesn't sound regis it also means that they probably do that [ __ ] all the time it wasn't unusual thing we actually looked at the data and the reality is they do do that [ __ ] all the time and three fifths of the time that they use that particular hold to unconsciousness three fifths of the time is with african-american men they use that when they neon your neck to unconscious I think it's chokehold as chokehold to unconsciousness over five years 245 times to unconsciousness and three-fifths of them were african-american men so yeah it's the cash the the video itself and how casual it was and how standard it was the guy passed a forged $20 bill like that's it's insane and so if people didn't this is a covert right and and if people didn't feel something from that moment and weren't in the streets right that is what to me would be more troubling well it's one of the worst videos we've ever seen because it's like this Perl law first of all it's completely unjustified right it's not like this guy is in a fight for his life against this guy no no and there was no evidence at all that he was doing anything to merit any brutality there was nothing I mean even he's talking he's like as they're leading him across the street he's not resisting he's not trying to run away I don't know how it got to the point where that guy was on his neck but the fact that those other cops is sat there it's like [ __ ] what is happening and and you know this is probably gonna tank ami cocoa chars chance which is kind of crazy because why didn't it just vetted her for VP and then all the sudden out of nowhere this happens it turns out in 2006 that [ __ ] cop was doing that [ __ ] way back then and she didn't do anything about it he had many many civilian complaints against I can't raise like 17 or 19 different civilian complaints against them and nothing ever happened there's so many good cops out there there's so many good cops and when you see one like that it's just there's a great video and I've talked about this before but I'll say it again of a Flint sheriff from Flint Michigan talking to these people and saying look I'm gonna put the baton down we're gonna we're gonna march with you but see that is the answer to military because that that and what did that lead to that de-escalated that led to less right while there's looting he's he's money of that approach rather than crack down tear gas rubber bullets you know and this contentious us versus them and the you know the militarization all of that that approach led to less violence I agree with you but all that approach that the crackdown teargas happened after the looting that's the that's the impetus for it it's not like they saw these people protesting they're just gonna start shooting - your gas into the person we saw here the first people we saw were burning down things in Minneapolis and they allowed that and as Tiger was talking about that's that's really where it all took place seeing people get away with [ __ ] like that yeah it's like okay now there's a fire of the mind yeah and that fire needs to be you know let people understand this in a war context right like fires it like that's why we have very like strong rules of engaging on this can happen and that that Minneapolis looting that target it was a beacon it was a message any of these [ __ ] that you're talking about better we can get away with this and then night after night after night after night that's how 5th Ave I mean you saw I'm sure the same videos I did you would like organized ganks like people with car getaway cars lookouts posted on the corner all that where where's the NYPD right I mean that that is the with that breakdown is a very precious thing and this is you know on the riots front I mean look Baltimore 2015 they had these level of riots what happened massive economic destruction but worse than that is that police and many of the others have took a much more risk-averse approach to the way that they were going in that community the community is screaming for police but specifically for this reason which is that in the aftermath we know from many of these rise from the MLK times and after Baltimore it caused massive economic destruction to these cities it is not a noble thing to allow this to continue it's actually your job as a city I mean there's a whole movement I mean underground nobody wants to say this a lot of people do want to live in cities now because of what happened we you know first we're all locked I live in an 800 square foot apartment you don't [ __ ] terribly lock down an 800 square foot apartment and like the only thing you do is like go to the grocery store you can't go out to eat or do anything and now I've got [ __ ] like being blown up in the streets like a couple blocks from my house like I don't really know if that's the city life is all that enticing it out there crystal [Laughter] thinking that which is that hey you don't [ __ ] this why am I paying all this rent to live as a soul this box and then maybe get you know you have my [ __ ] get working remotely you know there's there's a good good argument for that now to so many people realized I mean maybe there's one good thing that's gonna come out of this is that people won't be stuck in cubicles and maybe they can work from home more often I'm concerned for the future but I I think that there needs to be some national address that is about law enforcement and about the rules of engagement and about the way we treat people that are artists there are citizens that's our community especially with non violent crimes like a [ __ ] fortune right and that's where it come on I mean those individual cops should be held accountable 100% and you know the fact that the three that just stood by like nothing has happened Oh son they haven't been fired no they were fired there yeah but I mean to me that is just unconscionable but it's it also speaks to the fact that it was casual the fact that was repeated the fact that there were these complaints and nothing was ever done it speaks to a larger systemic problem that the data backs up and so part of you know the challenge of this moment is also the fact that we are essentially leaderless like there is no trusted national there's no trust in our institutions there's no trust in the media there's no trust invested in any sort of a national unifying figure and so it's it's another reason why this moment is so incredibly fraught because who would even give that address that anyone would really listen to yeah it's gonna help us through this yeah he's talking through things my dad was like he swears a lot I mean there's there's got to be some sort of gigantic change the way and you're talking about there has been some change in Baltimore because of the riots that happened there and there's been a response and there has to be some sort of national response and you know one good one thing to come out of it is there needs to be a better system for vetting people for law enforcement it can't just be you want the job okay can you do 10 chin-ups do you have a criminal record if you ever sold heroin no okay you're a cop it can't be that it's gotta be very difficult to be a cop because it's one of the most difficult jobs it's an insanely difficult job it's crazy that some of the most difficult jobs that we have are the least paying they pay the least like like teacher right like they pay the people who literally that we were all deemed essential now during the pen like who literally allow the country to function yes make the least of anyone enter treated like they aren't human I mean that's the other thing like they're fungible goods to be fired and disposed with and thrown onto the front lines and a pandemic and not given any protection like that is the way that they are treated day to day know about the moorlands right said oh we're gonna replace you with slaves that's actually one thing we have implied I have enough which is hazard pay that means that is something that I cannot believe it hasn't gotten done I mean actually Mitt Romney proposed $12 extra per hour to any you know patriot pay Mitt Romney's in a cult but he's a very reasonable guy well and think about like the these workers in the pork processing today's massive outbreaks and you know what's crazy a lot of those people are asymptomatic it's really it's really weird yeah yeah you know also in prisons you know there's a lot of prison outbreaks and they've found out that they're asymptomatic and contrary to the way and actually I talked about this with Kyle kolinsky he was saying well he look at it this way like those are the people that have the strong immune systems because they're constantly on top of each other and it's true hey but it is I mean it's also that's also how it spread through them I mean these people I think high stress terrible diet you locked in a cage boy how the [ __ ] are these people asymptomatic but this is a weird disease and that's that's also part of the problem is that this is a novel coronavirus that's right that's me about it it's just like I don't know what the [ __ ] to believe about it right right like there's all this thing for me oh this study's been debunked actually no and about everybody's got antibodies no nobody has antibodies what antibody test does the mortality rate is 1% point I want like I don't know what to trust I mean I think one of the things you brought up which actually I thought was great point is that why is nobody talking about immunity here like how to boost your immune systems wear a mask away from everybody but not vitamin D you know when they're dealing with these people in New Orleans and there was a study in Indonesia the giant percentage like more than 80% of the people that are in the ICU have a vitamin D deficiency yeah for didn't write four percent of the people life in ICU had sufficient levels of vitamin D and how many people in general have a vitamin D depressive yes 70% in counted just in this in this country not non-california I don't know why I said that I'm just trying to talk people in this country have insufficient vitamin D and 29% are deficient meaning they're in dangerously low levels now when you add Cova to something like that I think that speaks to one of the problems we're dealing with this mortality rate obesity people with insulin resistance people with like real underlying health problems and you could say you know that well you know we still have to protect those folks and that this is the reason why we lock down the country okay maybe but you didn't do anything about immunity you didn't tell anybody to do things differently there's no public service announcement telling people hey if you cut down on sugar and cut down on alcohol and take cigarettes out of your life you have a radically increased chance of beating this [ __ ] thing so how are we supposed to survive in quarantine crazy liquor stores were deemed essential businesses and Alcoholics Anonymous was not they shut down Alcoholics Anonymous but they kept liquor stores open I mean I know how many people fell off the wagon during this time a lot I'm sure you're anxious but I saw some study about the the number of Americans who are showing signs of like anxiety and depression during those I mean yeah it's completely you've been cut off from all of your coping mechanisms basically and if you've lost your job you've lost you know a central point of meaning in your life and ability to provide for yourself and your family it's it's unreal and you know the fact that basically I remember early on who was it was it a Steny Hoyer in the house who was like we'll come back and work some more if there's an emergence of national emergency I'll come back girl there's a pandemic and millions of people lost their jobs what are you tired but that's been the blasé attitude because their career does not repay their money gavin newsom mark our governor one of the [ __ ] more ridiculous quotes he said if we keep our masks on we can get back some of our freedoms you [ __ ] you [ __ ] [ __ ] with you in LA - because first they were like three months yeah and then they just like took away and I'm like wait why did they learn something my friend Janet who owns this fantastic restaurant in Venice they just Felix they just told her out of nowhere you can reopen but no preparation all of a sudden with no warning they said uh we're just going to open I think cuz they're dealing with this unprecedented economic despair we're there and someone's like hey you know you've only had 2,000 deaths in the whole state there's 40 million [ __ ] people how many people have died of heart attacks during that time more how many people died of cancer more how many people died of obesity and all the interrelated helped did problems that come with that a lot more there's a lot of [ __ ] people dying right 2000 is a good number it sucks that those 2,000 people died of this disease but you can't just shut down the whole country you can't shut down the economy because there is a direct correlation between a dip in the economy and an increase in deaths due to suicide due to drug overdoses due to all sorts of problems even starvation that we've been living like that now for ten years I mean you know since 2008 basically like we had wipeouts of home ownership back home or should have wealth black wealth and black homeownership under President Obama's presidency and it was during that time that you know when the economy was coming back it was a all underemployment it was all like in the gig economy it was all like in a way that just it was all not in a some more secure way that it was before the crisis and that is actually part of why this makes this economic crisis so bad right because it even gets rid of those types of jobs because going into the Great Recession we lost a majority middle-income jobs and coming out we gain majority lower income jobs and that's when the gig economy crops up and so people are pushed even more to the edge than they were before and you know may not have health insurer don't have savings like or piecing it together with a couple different gig jobs and there's an author who calls it the precariat that group of workers who you know they're piecing it together they don't have any sort of net below them and then you layer on top of that like that's a group of people who is either out on the front lines in the you know the processing plant or delivering the packages or doing the uber eats for lucky folks like us you can just order in no problem don't worry about it or they lost their job altogether and are just like no certainty that it's ever going to come back how am I gonna how am I gonna make rent this month like the lot of rent forbearance is ending right now and nothing has been done to help and it's all gonna be in full total chaos after this rioting and no one knows what to happen I want to ask both of you guys this okay if you had a magic wand view the king of the world how do we come out of this how to start with you what do you mean how do we all of it how do we come in this is what everybody's wondering right the big question everybody has right now is how does this end how do we come out of the economic despair caused by the pandemic how do we come out of the riots how do we come out of all of this I mean I think you have to do a ubi and you have to do some sort of mass Federal jobs program to get people back to get them back working to get them back on their feet to to rebalance the playing field I think you have to do those two things and I would also say universal health care how many of those $1,200 checks went out did the only one that's [ __ ] preposterous yeah one time that was it and I'm like okay but what am I supposed to keep doing that yeah so so how do we get out of this whole riot thing I mean I think these things go together I also think that you have to have some that some sort of systemic policing reform like what you're talking about in terms of the training in terms of chokeholds being illegal in order to for people to feel like there's some real problem I don't think you should make chokeholds illegal I think if you're trying if someone's trying to kill someone someone's trying to stop someone look if if you're a cop and you're in a fight for your life against someone who's done something horrible you should be able to use jiu-jitsu and one of the best techniques in jiu-jitsu is choking people unconscious and it's not that dangerous it's not as dangerous as beating someone it's not as dangerous as head trauma what that guy did was just torture yeah that's what he did it has nothing to do with utilizing a good martial art technique to subdue some sort of perpetrator well then here's the other piece that is a whole other can of worms but you know a lot of this police think has to do with the drug war I mean a lot of the militarization and the the racism within policing comes back to the the drug war in the way that we handle all of that for sure yeah I mean but you know it has to do with PTSD as well I mean I think there's a ton of cops out there running around with just unmanageable PTSD where are you serving the military yes a lot of citizens out there who have PTSD for sure but they're not pulling people over I think the pulling people over every day with PTSD leads to terrible choices I think there's a lot of these cops that have seen too much violence they've seen too much death I was actually talking to a friend of mine about it yesterday and someone who she grew up with who had a different friend he grew up with had a friend who lives in a small town in 9,000 people and thought that where they lived was you know it was fine normal place and became a cop and over the course of 10 years of being a cop it has a completely jaded and fucked-up attitude about human beings now because they've walked in on people with their brains blown out and stabbed to death and raped and just every [ __ ] day they find some new reason to hate everyone and they're just broken and and I think this is a thing that cops and every time they pull somebody over this could be the last day of their life this guy's got a tinted window you know and who knows what's going on inside this car who knows if this is a fugitive who knows well and that's it that's a deeper question about our society it's not like that everywhere I mean it's not first of all you don't have the level of violence everywhere that we have here you don't have the level of cop to citizen animosity and violence that we have here I mean that's it that's a really deeper question about what we're doing in society to lead to those outcomes I don't have all the answers oh you're right yeah it is it's a it's it's a an effect that has accumulated over time - and to bring it back in the other direction and to have some sort of a positive relationship between the police officers and and the communities that they serve one thing that my friend a mortal technique brought up about that sheriff in Flint he said Flint has a very unique relationship with with the police and the people in the community because they're all dealing with that water problem they're all in it together and it's been a lot of the people that are police officers they're also live in the community with a and their kids were poisoned - yes right I think people living in the community the police is also in the day like a lot of the cops I didn't actually live in LA so it was very much like a train yeah yeah they're all in Simi Valley don't go robbing a house and see there's a problem in New York City as well because it's so expensive you know - that it makes it impossible for some class people to be able to live in the city that they are actually policing I mean look there's a there's an ugly history around policing in America if you go back to a lot of the police departments in the south were put in place to enforce Jim Crow style laws I mean there has been a long history of basically there being a community that is protected and a community that is policed and so those are our deep problems to solve you're not going to solve them overnight you're not gonna pick one piece of legislation that's gonna fix it like that but I think if you have that context and that understanding and that you're not just saying oh it's just this one bad person or that one bad person that we have a bigger structural issue then you can start to move forward and people people just need to feel like progress can be made I mean I think that's one of the biggest problems in this moment is there's this sense of nothing is going to change nothing has changed they had body cameras they didn't have them on you know they were being filmed and they didn't [ __ ] care it didn't matter it didn't make a difference and so if you can at least give people that sense that no the political system can work on your behalf then you start to move in the right direction it's an amazing that one person in one horrific act of one part of Minneapolis and start this explosion that lights the whole country on fire unbelievable protest their protest overseas - yeah I mean it's weird in New Zealand I saw protests in New Zealand style bender was in a protest same question to you how do you fix this so on the rile start with the riots cuz I think my view is clear re-establish law and order I agree you use that opportunity to seize upon again the 50-plus one things what do we all learn through this pandemic it's pretty stupid that our corporate elites and our political elites allowed many of our most critical jobs and industries in order to go over to China that's an empirically stupid thing yes reassuring American supply chains makes us safer in the long run both from a you know and economic respect from national security perspective health perspective etc like the China thing is like a 90/10 issue and right now I want to make sure I call this out which is that there are elements in the white house more corporate friendly ones who are trying to quash a by American order that was put forward you know within the Trump administration that doesn't even call from mandatory like on shoring of medical supply chains but just like wants to use subs you know tax rebates and other stuff to encourage over ten years and I think it's pretty unconscionable at something like that ninety ten issue after something like this hasn't been passed I think on trade it's the same thing this is a broader question of so much of what we have it's not just China I mean that's an overwhelming thing in our trading relationship but it's like a great nation makes things for itself there's a great essay I write it was like make America autarkic again and autarky is like making everything here I'm not saying that's you know all the libertarians are gonna get very upset about me and start sending me comparative advantage memes but like look there is a real benefit to be able to make things in America and that if just because it's cheaper the the alter of globalization the alter of cheap prices has made us make horrific political choices over the last four decades and going on that and praying towards that altar has made it so that we are less safe less and less robust less I mean socially you know the to to live in a town and to have a factory which is producing something and to feel pride in your work and get paid a good wage and to know that if the explicit decision of Congress in order to let China to join the WG or China to joining the WTO restoring permanent norming relationship permanent normal trade relationship with China and watching that factory go away like this you know why and people made that choice because they said [ __ ] you you're better off you have it cheaper TV they said not better GDP will go up GDP control and it did and it was great for a few people I think that you have to acknowledge that there's like a deeper rot in the society where the fundamental promise has been like if you have cheaper stuff and you can buy more like cheap Chinese crap you're gonna be happy right that's gonna be the key to happiness and so everything has been used to justify those ends and it hasn't made us happy it hasn't made us satisfied it hasn't brought us any sort of spiritual nourishment or community and community is something that we have completely sort of dismissed with and dispatched with and devalued in the country as well so some of this is not like easy here's a law you can pass and you're good to go but I think it does start with this fundamental idea which comes back to kind of the core of our show that human beings are worthy that they have dignity that they have rights that should be secured and if you can take that kind of FDR economic rights model and actually implement it into place where people feel that they are valued and seen and heard and have agency and power in the society then you are not going to have to call in the military to American cities you're not going to end up with a situation like we see right now that's spiraling and spiraling and spiraling out of control that's another thing you know in terms of what I would do it's like we have to we have to reorient our economic life and our economic policies in order to incentivize the building of communities and the building of institutions that exist outside of just the outside of just a direct check from the government or direct check from your work force it's each needs to be about I mean the way that America was like the probably most United we ever war was around like in the 1960 I know everyone there were terrible things that happened they were exposed in the Civil Rights there and all that but you know broadly what was it was like unions it was about higher wages and it was about the strength of the American family and that's something that I mean every data we see Lois marriage rate on record in 2018 because and what's the number one reason that people cited not being able to get married I think it's not know man people still want to get married it's just that they can't afford to marriage is not sure think we need to reorient our economic life in order to bolster the American family and this this this is something very much part of like the new right movement there's this new organization called American Compass run by a friend of mine Oren cast he used to work for Mitt Romney and now what he's trying to do is you know move the GOP on these issues towards centering economic like restoring like economic conservatism from economic libertarianism and what I mean by that is free market fundamentalists at the free market is always good look like the free market was it is it a good thing once again that we couldn't make ventilators in our country when we thought we needed them like was it a good thing that we couldn't manufacture our own medical supplies and then broadly like in terms of the immediacy what I would do it's this payroll plan it's so critical that we restore Americans payroll and that we try to make it so that these businesses don't become failed distressed assets that get rolled up into these huge private equity conglomerates that buy them all off for cheap that [ __ ] over workers it [ __ ] businesses and it just makes this do you want to live in a highly in a world where there's no mom-and-pop businesses or no dive bars anymore that's where we're headed right I think two people will put up with a lot of [ __ ] and they will persist and they will invest in a communal invest in their lives they'll invest in a productive civil society if they feel that they have they they believe that life will get better for themselves and their kids and I really think that's kind of the core breakdown that people no longer have that confidence that for their kids it's gonna they're gonna be able to have it better than they had and when you lose that sense of hope that's when things go off the rails I think there's also a real problem with this election in that you either are a pro Trump person in which you're happy that Trump's gonna run again but if you're a Democrat you're really settling we all know you're really really settling you're making me right now Joe everyone who's on the left has any sense attention well and also that you it so clearly highlights the people that are full [ __ ] that are just supporting the fact that you know you want you're gonna vote left no matter what and you hear this thing look I'm just voting for the cabinet I'm voting for the one thing that I keep hearing over and over again is I'm voting for a woman's right to choose and I'm like okay do I agree with the woman's right to choose but is that the number one thing for running the country is a person's ability to abort a baby is that really what cuz that really is what it boils down to and I'm not you know I'm not saying that lightly but what it's it's very sad that we're in this position in 2020 that we we have to say I'm just voting for the cabinet I just want to vote left I'm voting for the Supreme Court we cut we covered this member there was a and this was Democrats made fun of Trump voters for being koltes last time around Trump came out and said I can shoot someone in Fifth Avenue they'd still vote for me and we're like you're an idiot right that's ridiculous a woman if an Asian writer at the nation just wrote this piece piece that she started off if Joe Biden boiled and ate babies I would still vote for him now look is she being hyperbolic of course but the central concept of like it doesn't matter what he does it doesn't matter I will justify it if it's just a hair's breadth better in my view than Trump and look I mean ultimately maybe the election is that existential and maybe things are going off through that you're just like okay well at least Joe is gonna be you know somewhat normal and do sort of normal presidential things but that type of politics is deeply destructive because if everything can be justified if you're just like slightly better than the other side this lesser two evils dynamic is a hell that you could never escape from isn't he he's 78 yeah so he'll be 86 wait a sec is he's 78 or so nice I think he's 77 yeah much more vibrant feels like he's falling apart and the idea that he's gonna be here in eight years cuz this is a problem you're voting for him not just for now you're voting for him if he wins you're hoping you last two terms you're also you're also voting for whoever its vice president is who not only maybe you know will be the next Democratic nominee and then you know eight years of them but also because of his decline may have a lot more influence and power may be pulling the strings depending on who it is and look he's already said he wants to pick someone he's consulting with Wall Street as to who we should pick his donor class is like having a lot of say over who he should pay he's gonna pick someone who's basically just like him ideologically so you're looking at maybe twelve years of essentially being like well I guess this is guess I'm voting for the cabinet vice president is gonna be like a democratic it's gonna be some sort of a dick cheney situation we have heard my favorite quote from Biden is he wants to make the Democratic Party a bridge to Peter James like people like Pete and that was like whoa I'm so comfortable that's the bridge I was ready to ride in the streets I don't know if he's a nice guy but he just seems so plastic it seems so real yes it's empty it's just about he's a young guy - which is part of the problem you're thrusting someone into the national spotlight that was just a mayor and running while he was a mayor that doesn't I don't understand that one year our mayor isn't it really [ __ ] important to take care of your city well and his wasn't doing were one of the only peoples in the people in the primary who even covered how the city of South Bend itself felt about P ang there's there's this like celebrity culture around politicians now it's kind of like we were talking about earlier like Cuomo's oh it does a great press conference and that's all that matters there's this Stacey Abrams who's also been talking about for a vice presidential pick there she sort of created this brand image of being very much on the left very progressive a very different sort of politician but if you actually look at her record in Georgia she was you know and this is not like maybe if you're a centrist this is a good thing it's not my politics but she was very centrist corporate friendly that was the type of politician that she was and no one ever actually covers her record which is kind of fundamentally disrespectful to her she's a politician she did things she has a record instead it's this like Kardashian type coverage she checks all the diversity boxes that's exactly yeah I was talking about the mayor of Chicago when I was there I was like she's woman she's black and she's gay if she just was a transgender and a Muslim she would have all the Infinity stones and she'd be the wolken that ever existed where dreadlocks would glow and seen a video where she's talking about we interviewed her there's a video where she's talking about the New World Order there's this video that's being passed around and conspiracy theory to order yeah Jamie Jamie could find the video I think Eddie Bravo put it on his Twitter page it says a lot or his Instagram page but is essentially she was talking about picking leaders that will comply with the the New World Order I don't know what the context of what she was saying but then it got passed around like look she's a New World Order she'll I don't know 5g cover your head [ __ ] 5g man it's it's everywhere be careful right yeah she's she's a you know a very popular politician for a lot of good reasons but it's also one of those things where when someone says something like New World Order you say just that phrase alone like that's a hot-button phrase for all the conspiracy people right well and when you have this when you have no one who's trusted in the media and when you have this sort of general societal breakdown in general then that stuff flourishes more than it would in normal times these echo chambers of conspiracy theorists and left-wing people who are pundits and right-wing people these echo chambers are some of the most disturbing parts of interaction with people online because you can always find someone that agrees with you and you know if you're not a person that likes to challenge your thoughts and ideas you can just bounce those [ __ ] things around with all these other knuckleheads to believe the same [ __ ] you do that's definite no it's in fact check to be out of context of course I just want to know what the hell she's saying otherwise it doesn't work so you can eliminate that compliance and you make a mandate and then you do training particularly in the city I'll call the licensing departments whether it's zoning buildings housing will be impacted by a planning certainly and it's and you and you pick the people who run those agencies and the deputies there are pledging allegiance to the New World Order and good governance and then I think you have inspector general I can't I get what she was trying to say I think which is like a new era of city government is that is that with no she's saying lord Vader so Saeng pledge allegiance the lord Vader open your eyes is mandatory show everyone get your 5g see he's covering for them to remember what Bill Gates is the devil get your microchips [ __ ] you Bill Gates is a bad guy now how did that happen did you see Trump stand in front of the church holding that Bible like as a dirty diaper that was great is hilarious first of all they teargas all the [ __ ] protesters to get him off the street the clearance tree down and then Trump walks across the street like there's never been a president so bold to walk he's walking so he walks across the street says boarded down Church it's hilarious I mean they probably had snipers all over the room a Dilla yeah it's a dirty diaper he's holding that thing like like look I've got my Bible [ __ ] read me one passage asked if it was his Bible he's like thank you sir I got it at a hotel I was Dan yeah I mean what what is that why is he holding the Bible what that is the most ill-conceived PR stunt that I've ever seen I mean maybe yeah I actually thought about this too because look I mean their main reason the main reason like Trump has such a solid hold on the on the right like on the Republican base so to speak is because actually of the judges thing of the Supreme Court thing which you were talking about of selecting Mike Pence who has a lot of credibility in the evangelical community so I think that I mean a lot of people were outraged I saw this this was a very like right thing when that you know the st. John's Church that church that you were seeing that was set on fire right and so like it was set on fire and there was a lot of people like first of all there I think it was brian Stelter over at CNN was like actually no it's not on fire they delete his tweets and on Twitter who's betcha is adorable he's adorable little shell he's something else but so like there was all that and there look there wasn't a lot of outrage around the fact that the church got set on fire so I get what he was signaling it look I agree I told Krystal this morning on the show tear gassing the protesters and going out there for the Photoshop on like that I don't think it was the best move can you imagine being so insecure that you're the president of the United States like you have nuclear arsenal and middle American military at your disposal and you're so insecure that you have to show your strength in that moment by walking across the park and reportedly he was upset because it had come out that they had like had to go down into the bunker on Friday or say at a Saturday night or whatever when there were protesters and so this was his way to reassert his manhood but I think that's why I say I don't think that he has like a real I think he has instincts I don't think he has a real ideology I don't think he has like a goal or a mission or a project he's trying to accomplish I think he's just all it I think it's all just about like how do I reclaim this news cycle how do I win the day I actually interviewed him back before he was an official candidate at the White House Correspondents Dinner I was doing like I was like on the rope line doing like the celebrity interviews like sticking a mic in people's face right over it was ridiculous so he comes in and this is at the time and Aaron's like oh it's just a publicity stunt he's not gonna run right he comes in with Milani it wasn't the one it was maybe the one after when Barack Obama made fun of him like that and so he comes up to me and this is when I was at MSNBC and you know I wasn't like particularly prominent there it was one of four on a panel show and he locks eyes with me and he's like crystal oh my god it is so great to meet you like even then this he was like re and a b torik you guys are so great together on the cycle like he knew the show he knew clearly he was had already obsessed with cable news and all the ins and outs of cable news and he was general oh my god I can't believe I get to meet Krystal I'm like what no but it was such a little insight into his whole wiring and so he knows more than anyone like what is going to be provocative to these stupid Talking Heads on cable what is gonna capture their attention what is gonna be outrageous what's gonna win the day and I don't think that there's much beyond that thinking of like how do I win this news cycle how do I change the topic on this news cycle so there's certainly part of that but the thing is that wouldn't explain why Trump has been skeptical of the global financial system since like 1978 right like there's that old clip of him on Oprah in like 1980 about Japan and Jade I mean he's he's even I've heard this from a friend he was sighting like one of my friends michael lind who's like very you know like a nationalist on trade policy in the mid-2000s was like michael lind is right about trade like he was he's clearly been thinking about this for a long time and on immigration in particular I mean I think that's another one where he's always kind of been there he's always had the instant I mean his real genius was looking at what did the base of the Republican Party actually want they want better trade deals and they want less immigration and for you know decades now all the professional right has been able to give them is will cut your taxes that's a priority it'll never actually happen and then that is that and then alt but you still have to vote for us because we're good on abortion and we're good on gun control and that wasn't enough for a lot of people and you can see - and this is what I meant about making it the cynical choice when you adjust your position on immigration and on trade you win all of these Obama Trump voters all throughout the Midwest and you become the president I mean and even then I'm not saying it was enough there still is a lot of more work to be done I think it needs to realign more to the issues of what I'm talking about but to say that it's all just it is just I mean that's not his his driving force like if you see the way I'm having interacted with him and just like how he how he reacts to certain things there isn't condensed ideology behind what he is otherwise he wouldn't have run the way was he wouldn't have had those positions for such a long time on the core issues that actually matter to why he was elected and so the real issue and I think the criticism of valid criticism is he wasn't able to enact those political instincts into the actual staffing of the White House because in the White House personnel most policy and there's a great there's a great book called the years of Lyndon Johnson then it's about history of LBJ has four volumes and all that Robert acara one of the best biographers of all time and he quotes a guy named Tommy Corcoran who was FDR's kind of right-hand man he's like what is a government government's not one-man government is the first hundred men first thousand they all have to be united in the common purpose in order to actually get [ __ ] done in a bureaucracy the truth is and we have to acknowledge this is that on the right after Trump's election the RNC and all these professional right-wingers these conservative establishment they were the thousand and so that's why you get something like the tax cuts bill the tax cuts in Jobs Act it's because a guy like you know Paul Ryan has been fantasizing about pushing that for such a long time he didn't agree with Trump on trade he blatantly disagree he didn't agree with Trump on immigration completely and they were these guys were masters about Oh mr. Presiden you gonna get that but you got to pass this tax cut first right oh you you'll get what you want and you're spending but he just got to put this in the spending bill first and they snookered basically they snookered him because Trump isn't I mean look he was a political novice he didn't actually know about how policy was made in Washington DC it's [ __ ] complicated it matters a lot who the Deputy Secretary of Commerce is like you and I aren't gonna know that person's name that person certified certifies like steel tariffs yeah I still think that's letting him off the hook too much though because like I mean you see in this in this crisis right if he may he may have some instincts he may have some ideological leanings and you're right he's been talking about this some of this stuff especially on trade for a long time but when it came down to it you know he was the first people he called in the coronavirus crisis for economic response were corporate ceos Wall Street executives like that's who we went to to get his advice that's who I trusted and that's how you end up you know floating ideas like we're gonna have a capital gains tax cut as a response to the crisis or we're gonna have a payroll tax cut which okay if you have a range of responses maybe that's part of it but when you've got 40 million people who aren't on a payroll anymore that's not gonna do a whole heck of a lot of good so I just don't see that there's any maybe he has the ideology but doesn't really matter if you're not willing to push for a for now and you see who's organized in the town because immediately once this crisis hit immediately the first Trilly multi trillion dollar bill gets passed very very quickly with all the goodies for big business this stuff that was custom written every got their goodies there was a massive tax break for real estate developers that they tried to get into the corporate bailout that they had all ready to go like those are the forces that are all completely organized locked and loaded ready to go in a crisis and so they basically won I mean they rolled everyone they tied the little bit of poultry small business and worker stuff to the massive corporate piece and held the workers and the small businesses hostage and so if you vote don't vote for it then you're voting against workers and it was all ready to go like that and that is what you were overcoming in the town that sort of bipartisan 98 Oh 9800 I think when you're talking about Trump in his history of understanding trade and in business decisions I think it's all stuff that benefited him that's why he was concentrating on them and I think now you're dealing with him spread so thin because now he has to deal with the environment he has to deal with international politics and there's so much and that's why you you catch him and I think what you said too that he's lives off the it'd I mean I think that's very true and he's always in the moment right he famously said he just lives off of his instincts he trusts his instincts yeah which is great but he had preparation when he was dealing with those things before when he's talked about those things before he was president that's why I had a deeper understanding of them because they meant something to him yeah but now you're dealing with the entire broad spectrum of duties of being the president and he says [ __ ] like inject people with Lysol and sick dogs on protesters he's saying nutty things she's the strong man right he's always been the strong man he's always been the you're fired guy right and he's still planet yes height yes so he's that guy now but he's that guy with global thermonuclear consequences and so that even more to the point on that which is that when you don't have this is this is another kind of establishment always wins point is that when you don't have very firm beliefs because like trade and immigration are two things with like hundreds of billions of dollars behind the kernel liberal trade and immigration policy that we have right now in this country when you don't have that a very well formed ideology around how it should be like you're saying on the environment or anything else that is how they win because status quo always continues in DC unless you make the very concerted effort of like no you are not doing anymore and I'm appointing your boss and your boss's boss and your boss's boss's boss's boss in order to make sure that you don't actually do that that's that's actually what the hardest way to fight back is you actually need a coherent ideology on every single one of these things but more important you got to understand how government works and I think that so many people don't seem to grasp that it's not just like putting a guy in the Oval Office like look by the time it's reached the Oval Office it's so [ __ ] right that ten levels down they would have made the decision so that's the power right like you got to make sure that you're what you want is being reflected ten layers down in the bureaucracy and you look at the way you know like Russia gate and all this other stuff and you can just see like how arrogant some of the people within the bureaucracy behave just blatantly you know disregarding the will of a president or blatantly just thinking he's illegitimate trying to deal legit amazing and from that perspective that's [ __ ] scary because they're not even accountable to the person that we all voted for that is what what I like why why conservatives have to care more about government that's something I like one of my pet causes is look like we are living in a society where the culture is against you like we are living in a society where you know the cultural elite the commanding heights of American culture and you're living in a society where you don't have real power there and so and you're also living in a society where you have corporate America look at these protests right now Amazon supports the protests right like well Amazon supports the protests Citibank CEO it's it's the people with the most accumulated capital in America are also on the side of this protest why because in my view they use identity politics and racial politics they want to split the country along those lines every single day that we're talking about identity politics and having debates about race well not really want to split the country along the lines I think they just want support for their company so and they think that it's a good PR move it's a it's a brand new and here's the thing is and this goes back to the coalition's of the parties right so the Democratic Party caters largely to these like white affluent women basically is like the base that they really right I know they chew a lot of clothes Humiliator with this base I wanna see Jobar the joga base and so you know for those four people who are more or less doing well as things are right they've got their health insurance they've got a job where they're treated like a human being with humanity they can get their Ober eats they can get whatever they want on demand right their way of virtue signaling is on identity issues and if you only confine the conversation on policing to like let's deal with this let's let's have more body cameras like if you keep it in that lane that's very comfortable for that right if you have a broader conversation about a society that you know has decimated unions has decimated working-class power about who has power in the society and why like that's more of a threat to them so yes for corporate brands it's very comfortable to have like let's have a diversity initiative it's less comfortable to say no no let's actually value the worth of everyone let's actually have a different set of power let's actually not have corporations able to give on Lemon and limited money and buy off our politicians and then be able to go work on your boards etc etc like that's a very non-threatening conversation that's how you end up with was a Bank of America sponsored the the movement continues yes black lives matter movement continues with DeRay McKesson is a prominent activist to be cynical is there another reason why Amazon would support this protest that this is kind of the death of retail I mean this is one of the final nails in the coffin of retail so think about investing your money in a brick-and-mortar store with a glass window after all this horseshit look III won't cite who told me this was a very prominent person in the field of economics and was like my conspiracy theory is that Jeff Bezos wants 10 to 15 percent unemployment because then what's the best job in the world Joe in a rural place Amazon warehouse he's the guy dropping off those bricks who's better at delivering [ __ ] than Amazon you should be more cynical because that I mean look how else do we get to a point where like the shale gas company sponsors a 16:19 project event with nicole hanna jones around with it so the 16:19 project a real rabbit hole so this is like this is the New York Times put out the sting and 16:19 project is the year that the first slaves were brought to America and it was about reforming the way that we talk about race and slavery in America and so that the very first essay which she wrote which is very controversial as when she claimed that the reason for the American Revolution was because people wanted to keep their slaves not because of you know control from England and all that what happened is is that a bunch of very prominent historians are on the American Revolution the Civil War and much more pan to the essay they said this thing needs to be corrected they corrected it even then she still won the Pulitzer Prize for journalism or for commentary I want to say for that specific essay which was which was there and they partnered I think was with the Pulitzer Center in order to create curriculum that schools are now using to teach now this was attacked the 16:19 project not at first by conservatives of course conservatives were pissed off it was attacked by the inner world socialist web site by Trotskyites by Marxists and socialists and the reason why is because they saw it for what I see it which is that it's a cynical attempt in order to say America is an irredeemably racist nation that that is the only single and most pressing problem that we have in our society and if you hold that frame then you don't ask questions about corporate power in America you don't ask questions even of leaders a friend of our shows that Jelani had a fantastic appearance on our show I really encourages everybody to go watch it where he talks about if you look at the black community in America which is what had the most pressing impact on their life economically and destroyed so much of their livelihood it was the foreclosures under Barack Obama and it was the wipeout of black homeownership and black wealth that that the 16:19 project and the framework of politics that that original sin which of course is the original sin is the be-all end-all for why we are where we are today absolves current political leaders and recent political leaders like Barack Obama himself or like leaders in the city of Atlanta or leaders in the city of Baltimore and that it absolves public policy which is non racial and so when I say that why does shale gas company feel comfortable sponsoring an event in which the main messages that core is that America is an irredeemably racist nation because they that is one more event which is being talked about in the political zeitgeist by the cultural elite which is not talking about their own power in the marketplace and if you look at who what is the the predominant control in your life in America it is about capital it's not about race it's about class class but class disproportionately affects people of color in America and so the way I look at it is that identity politics is so cynically grafted on by the billionaire and the corporate class there's a reason they're all super woke it's because they want it to be this way so that we don't talk about their power in our society and I think this was a very cynically the way this all happened is kind of a crazy because it started out in the sociology departments in the 1970s all of these crazy you know this from the post and the 60s era they were you know in these sociology departments and they started cranking out all these absolutely crazy papers around you know feminism and play identity politics racial politics all of that and then what happened is is that corporate America and other cultural eats first of all were being indoctrinated in the university system they were going to go work at places like McKinsey and others and they brought their racial politics and their identity politics with them but that there had to be recognition from the top from people at like Goldman Sachs if Goldman Sachs if the pressure on them is to stop the way that they trade derivatives or to put a black person on their board while they continue to you know do the derivatives trading they can choose that every single time right so they want to direct the conversation in that direction it absolves them for the sins both you know towards the economically disenfranchised in America but it's also a very cynical tool which is that why is it that you see all these corporations skog tweeting out black lives on our Instagram blackout all that stuff how is it that you see like night you know Nike isn't this the great irony that Nike you know went and did the whole Colin Kaepernick thing the ad campaign and they still got all their [ __ ] looted in this in this most we say it's Chicago right I mean I think that is that's the perfect example of they try to cynically use identity politics in America split people apart to protect their power and if we start to understand that it's a lot more about class in America than it is about race I'm not saying that there is not racial problems in America racism that so you know all of this but that if you focus on these class issues it's the best way to help people people who are disenfranchised who are disproportionately people of color but to help everybody that's a much more I just don't know how else we can live in a multi-faceted multifaceted nation like this which is you know economically heterogeneous ethnically people you know so many people of different ethnicities so many people have different religions so maybe I mean I am the son of Indian immigrants I feel fully and completely American that's an amazing thing that didn't just happen it was the product of a result of very specific political choices that we made over time and it's moving towards that that we needed to go towards and that's what but by doing so what you've talked about many times about economic not just distribution but about the POW who has power in society working-class or not yeah which is the corporate America can use the identity politics in order to make sure the working class doesn't continue to have power and so you can't separate class and race because it's not an accident of course that black and brown people are disproportionately the lower-income and poor and working-class in society I mean I I see it much more simply sort of like what you were saying who it's it's virtuous it's like brand a branding exercise right and there's this whole idea I always think it's hilarious on the right flag Facebook and Twitter are progressive or their liberal companies or Amazon's a liberal coming I'm like what are you talking about Amazon treats their workers like [ __ ] they bust unions like this is not a left company right but because they use this or branding tools and tweet out black lives matter which is no threat to them and in fact as you're pointing out may very much benefit their bottom line ultimately they're sort of they get all the benefits of being for progress and meaning for this rising coalition in America without actually having to do anything that's going to benefit their bottom line yeah listen we just did three hours just flew by what yeah I've really enjoyed it I really appreciate you guys I really appreciate your perspective I really appreciate the fact that you guys are you're putting out your honest informed opinions and it really helps people like me that are way too lazy to look the [ __ ] up on their own awesome and I love the fact that you disagree but you do so intelligently and respectfully and you you you you cut through all the nonsense that's on most of these political shows this this is so much nonsense and I think the world's sick of it and I think that's one of the reasons why you guys are gaining in popularity means a lot to seriously I mean we found out we're coming here is just so great like I've been listening to you for years I started buying elk meat because I bought some of that for sig Matic coffee you know thank you for everything Joe you created the space for people like us in our politics and for us to thrive and we can't ever underestimate that I think that's why you are so popular and you've you've really invented the medium for a new discussion it's a revolutionary Asian media and there's never been more exciting it's a complete accident I have no idea how I stumbled onto it I just just keep doing it but you guys are very valuable I appreciate you very much thank you thank you tell people on social media and yes so subscribe at the hill and our show is rising and then i'm on twitter at crystal ball instagram at crystal m ball and that's crystal with a k' by the way and the hill you can also at a sagar esa AGA are on twitter same on instagram also you can go to rising sub stack calm or just have a list of all the links everything you need beautiful thank you thank you Joe bye everybody [Music] [Music]

Channel: PowerfulJRE

Views: 6,489,881

Keywords: Joe Rogan Experience, JRE, Joe, Rogan, podcast, MMA, comedy, stand, up, funny, Freak, Party, The Hill, Rising, Joe Rogan, Krystal & Saagar, JRE #1485

Id: eA9Tpf5Uuxs

Length: 163min 20sec (9800 seconds)

Published: Wed Jun 03 2020

Reddit Comments

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[u/YangGangsterr]

My initial reaction? It seems like Saagar thinks the popularity of that interview was because of their questioning rather than the substance of Yang’s responses and how refreshing Yang was as a candidate in general. Maybe I’m still bitter.

[u/AngelaQQ]

Not a surprise. Andrew Yang is golden for views on any platform, including Joe Rogan.

The Hill owes much of its rise in viewership this year to Yang.

[u/TophMelonLord]

Guys I don’t think Sagar is taking credit for the interview going well/being popular - like that’s obviously on Yang, what he’s saying is at the time it was one of his best interviews because they were treating him seriously! You need space in an interview and the right questions to get the best responses.