Jeff Sharlet: Author of "The Family"

[Music] [Music] welcome to free thought I'm Annie Laurie Gaylor and I'm Dan Barker Annie Laurie and I are co-presidents of the Freedom From Religion Foundation the nation's largest association of free thinkers working to keep religion out of government ask for a free copy of our newspaper free thoughts today or join us today in our vital work at FFRF dot org today on fee that matters we're going to hear from the award-winning journalist Jeff Sharlet author of The New York Times bestseller the family the secret fundamentalism at the heart of American power Jeff is executive producer of the Netflix documentary series the family based on his groundbreaking investigation Jeff Sharlet recently spoke at the National Convention of the Freedom From Religion Foundation where he was interviewed by guest host Andrew Seidel so Jeff Sharlet welcome to free thoughts good to be with you so you wrote a book and then you wrote another book and now you've got this Netflix series that is about as perfectly timed is we could hope on all of it on the family so tell us what the family is family is the oldest I think arguably the most influential Christian conservative political organization in Washington and what makes it especially unusual and why some listeners and viewers might not be familiar familiar with it is it's also the most secretive every year it hosts something called the National Prayer Breakfast at which the president speaks Congress attends and yet the organization really pretty much until my work denied that it existed despite extensive documentation and that was a theological principle for them they believed as the longtime leader the organization would preach they say you would say the more invisible you can make your organization the more influence it will have this is shadowy organization how did you discover it how did you get involved with it well how did you get this undercover story so SB I was invited to join III I actually am a member of the family and well you know sort of in the sort of the bastardized Calvinism in which they embrace once you're chosen you're always chosen so I'm a brother the family I'm a bad brother a very bad brother but I remain somehow chosen and this goes all the way back to 2001 a friend who asked me to meet with her brother who had been on a promising arc and life engaged to be married and and a career and someone had dropped out of it all to move to Washington and and live with this organization and although this man's actual family they were conservative Christians this was not what they recognized and they thought he'd joined a cult they said would you meet with him and I'd known this man for many years and he says no you've got to see it for yourself and he knew who I was so it wasn't exactly undercover he knew who I was you were writing and interested about writing and in bout religion yeah he knew that I'm a secular Jew and that didn't matter as I would learn to their theology is because they sort of believe anyone as long as you obey the rules you're in and invited me to come and live with this group of young men and that's all I knew it was at the time very quickly I began to see the political power gathered I met a former attorney general ed meese there were senators it was congressmen there was foreign heads of state and I realize it was a bigger story you call it I think a frat house for God was one of the phrases you used and you just use the word brother yeah there's well there's these there's these great actually reenactments in the Netflix series and I was really struck in the first episode when you're tell they're telling the story about how you were invited in and there's a leader who comes in and talks about some of this theology and he says he tells this story about you know what if somebody raped three little girls my jaw just just fell down it was really striking you wanna tell us a little bit yeah that that's a terrific actor named Michael Park who I loved because he plays the villain on stranger things the same kind of character seemingly sort of been all but wait a minute listen to what he's saying and there what that's an actual conversation that took place that was a man named David Coe who was the son of the longtime leader Doug Coe and is also leader in the organization he is an advisor to congressmen and Senators and this is the kind of advice he is giving them saying trying to explain King David why is King David chosen right this idea of chosen nests and the brothers the brothers in the family these young men were being groomed for leadership you know they're mostly decent young they're human beings so they say oh it's because he was very virtuous he was great David kosis know King David King David was kind of a monster actually when you think about it he coveted another man's wife Bathsheba he arranges to have that man killed and then he takes special Eva by force why is this a biblical hero and the answer is because he's chosen by God and how do you know he's chosen because he's in power and that was the pivot to bring this into the present he says to one of the young men he says suppose I heard you raped three little girls what would I think of you and this young man being a human being says you think I'm terrible says no no no it's fine you're here you're chosen that's the job yeah and that was a sort of that was a sort of a frightening moment for me and actually was interesting because it was a I think a frightening moment for some of these other young guys you know gotten involved this is not the church they had grown up with no and some sort of trust the authority and make that leap into kind of a morality some drift away at that point but had they had the weight of so many powerful figures behind them that they think oh well if these important men say this is okay I guess it is let's talk a little bit more about that especially about their theology because you do a pretty deep dive into this and in their world is is Jesus a in their world Jesus is not a in their world you know they grow out of a whole movement goes back to 19th century of muscular Christianity you know this and you gotta to deal with the history of at a point when United States and and Great Britain are in their very imperial stage as I suppose you might say United States still is and you know they're worried about what they see as the feminizing effective church men going to church and learning to turn the other cheek you can't learn the turn-the-other-cheek if you're supposed to be out there conquering and out of this came this muscular Christianity which the family really embraces I remember there was one leader came to assisted Jesus was alive today he'd probably be a Navy SEAL and you can find this kind of thinking fairly widespread and fundamentalism the rejection of the the rejection of you know that which is most appealing about the Christ figure even if you're not a believer there you know the idea of a character or God if you believe that who is gentle in all terms now this is a war Christ this is a warrior God so how does that toxically masculine Jesus and and the idea of being chosen how does that play into the the scandals that you see coming out of the family I mean you have mark Sanford the the hiking governor John Ensign I mean why don't these key the scandals matter then to these people that's exactly the answer well yeah in Episode two we tell the story of then Governor Mark Sanford who you know now is running sort of a kind of crazy Dark Horse primary challenge to Trump Bobby said one person in one person right back then he was a very reasonable presidential prospect he was a real contender until he disappears and says it's going on the Appalachian really disappear literally disappear fell off the map later they actually found airport security camera footage of him in his Madras shirt running to catch his plane to Argentina to meet his mistress and okay that should be the end of his career because he's a moralist he's been he's been basing his appeal in there and it's not one of the things that we couldn't include you know you put as much in the series as you can was his wife Jenny Sanford's memoir and which she describes how the family steered and controlled what was supposed to be their reconciliation and where she was told by the family and by governor Sanford that she was not to bring her complaints about his affair to the governor because he was chosen for power by God he had weighty concerns that the family would designate another man to whom she could speak and that man would carry her concern so the conversation would be man to man how would this this man and wife reconcile a man-to-man conversation and that her job was to wait her job they even set up a house for her you wait for when he is ready to return that's I mean I can think of a better example of toxic masculinity those two kind of one of the hearts of the organization it's built on these man-to-man relationships that you were talking about and it's one of the reasons it allows the organization be so shadowy because it's just it seems to be these personal relationships above all else and they're holding that brotherly relationship above the family about not not be family their family their personal family ready yeah right now yeah they're really you know an interesting thing is that there was a some terrific reporting on the family by the hard Christian right magazine world which originally responded to my reporting I think their first coverage of it was saying well Jeff Sharlet was his parents divorced early and that's why he says these things you know he's a product of a broken home but then they started looking into it more and their fundamentalist but they didn't like this idea of Hitler's a metaphor for Christ right that wasn't there their deal and they did some good follow the money reporting and they also had access to some political figures they wouldn't speak to me including some political wives who were very candid and sang in my husband's life his brothers and the family come first then our kids then me and that's the proper order to things so this kind of man meant they even call it their fine aunt their approach to finances is what they call the man method otherwise known as off the books the IRS also has a man method but the idea is that there's a fair amount of money on documented but there's even more money moving in the sense that and you I like what you're doing let me loan you my private jet or what you know what a what a alone of $50,000 help out that's the man method okay well we were talking with Jeff Sharlet and we are gonna take a short break and when we get back we're gonna talk about Trump and the family hi i'm ron reagan and unabashed atheist and I'm alarmed by the intrusions of religion into our secular government that's why I'm asking you to support the Freedom From Religion Foundation the nation's largest and most effective Association of atheists and agnostics working to keep state and church separate just like our founding fathers intended please support the Freedom From Religion Foundation Ron Reagan lifelong atheist not afraid of burning in hell thank you for watching free thought matters you can find more content by the Freedom From Religion Foundation at our website FFRF org follow FFRF on facebook and you'll get notifications about all of our content including whenever we go live on FFRF ask an atheist FFRF is also on YouTube where all of our programs including this show and our weekly news bites are available to watch anytime thanks again for watching and we'll see you on the web it was Milania who figured it out in a 2016 best selling campaign book called God's chaos candidate Donald J Trump and the American unraveling by a man named Lance wall now an evangelical Trump advisor and a student of COEs wall now writes while watching The Evening News with his wife Melania they witnessed the escalating violence and riots happening in Baltimore in that moment Melania turned to trump and said I'm gonna resist trying to do Melania accent but I want you to imagine it in your head if you run now you will be President what said Trump he was legitimately shocked by the sudden declaration I thought you said I was too bright and brash to get elected Melania turned back to the plasma screen and said something has changed they are ready for you now so in the Netflix series and in real life my guest Doug Coe that the kind of a spider at the center of this web of relationships dies and if this is based on relationships and management what what's happening where where are they going is it going to survive who stepped into the vacuum well in fact we see a number of the potential new leaders Doug Coe was a long time he was referred to by some as first brother and thought was thought to be closer to Jesus than anybody else alive and it was Doug Coe who is most invested in secrecy so when he dies in 2017 that and in some ways makes this Netflix documentary possible because Doug hos great strength was he did not need the limelight he did his vanity did not take that form but he collected a group of sort of powerful public men men who liked liked getting some attention for their work and we see some of them on camera like former congressman Zach womp who was sort of now moving into this leadership role we also see an episode three a man named Doug Burrell a former leader of the parachurch ministry young life Doug hos son-in-law and the longtime leader of their Russian effort and in fact it's Doug burly who shows up and the affidavit around the Maria Bettina spy affair it was Doug Burke at the prayer at the National Prayer Breakfast Doug burly was it seems opening doors yeah opening doors at the National Prayer Breakfast it was Doug burly who was actually organizing Prayer Breakfast in Moscow for Russian business leaders including the KGB or no sorry not KGB new-and-improved the Russian intelligence asset Alexander tortion who then comes to the American prayer breakfast so Doug Burleigh is and he didn't want to speak on camera he's sort of the old guard and kind of a little bit of skullduggery you see congressman Zac womp there was other men who thought they were in line for leadership there's a struggle going on in the movement right now so that's maybe your ray of hope yes right that is a ray of hope it is it it's and and that some of them in fact actually want to embrace publicity and transparency which even if their views remain the same it makes it easier it makes it easier for organizations like you guys no just take them on in court exactly and let's talk a little bit too because you mentioned Russia and there's this huge international component to the family I mean that they are exporting this and trying to tap into power centers and powerful men in all these other countries around the world so I'm a lawyer I do state church separation for a living and to me this seems just like a striking constitutional violation I mean you've got it's essentially a shadow State Department that is exporting Christianity yeah yeah it really is I remember actually some years ago interviewing a then Senator Mark Pryor who was a very conservative Democrat from Arkansas and I asked him what he gotten from his involvement the family says oh well they taught me that the separation of church and state is a myth that it was never actually intended an incredibly common view so in fact they don't feel that they're violating it they feel like that was just a kind of a liberal conspiracy sure don't they see this as some sort of abuse of power I mean isn't that why it's cloaked in the secrecy or is it is it really just that theological bark it seems like they're doing it on purpose or it's on purpose because they know it's wrong I mean that there's a saying they have a sort of a motto that goes back to the early days they're gonna bring men of power influence together to make decisions beyond the din of the Vox Populi this pretentious a little bit of Latin beyond the voice of the people this is fundamentally anti-democratic oh they're explicitly anti-democratic this is that's not a charge one makes against them I mean they would answer yes yes I mean that's where they begin way back in the 1930s with the Rio they're looking around they see fascism over here and they see much to admire and that but they're not exactly that they see communism over there they see organizationally much that they actually like in communism the cell organizing structure and they say democracy can't compete from 1930s that was not an uncommon idea the democracy was just not going to make it and so they decide they need sort of a third way and that this is the Third Way what's interesting between 1930s and now is we have come around again to a moment where many different strands of the right are it's not that they are saying our version this is democracy and you're wrong they're saying democracy democracy is no longer adequate right so many Trump supporters are not saying he's carrying out democracy this is this is after democracy and you've got in there in the Netflix special you've got Doug Coe on tape say talking about how we should look to Stalin and we should look to the Nazis and this is this is the kind of power that we can have it's stunning to hear that yeah it's an interesting history with that when I first reported that Hitler Lenin and Mao was just sort of the trying he uses assistance throughout their archives this is sort of his go-to sermon when I first reported it some defenders of the family said oh you know you're making that up well then someone within the family arranged for us to get videotape of an audio of sermons and there was more documents and so on so then they pivoted and said well it's just a metaphor and to what you want to say you know you don't need to be an atheist to be troubled by the metaphor of Hitler for Christ how about a lion or a lamb there's plenty of good metaphors on him and what that metaphor is it is it is the anti-democratic metaphor it is the idea that what is most what you're gonna take most from those Christian teachings is an idea of power and strength and it's not that Co is a Nazi he's certainly not a Maoist or a communist but he does fetishize authoritarianism and you saw that play out around the world with their embrace of dictators until finally and Donald Trump such a figure rises right here at home in the United States I want to talk about X I mean I mean Trump and you you there's this big there's another metaphor they use it or maybe it's a parable it's it's the Wolf Gang and you lead up to this in the series brilliantly I think can you explain that the wolf King for everybody so the wolf King I mean this was a when I was living amongst them and then later in their documents I would often find this rhetoric of you know most of the church cares for the sheep but who's caring for the wolves the poor wolves we are right but then it goes a little bit further and this was actually as I was trying 2016 I was trying to understand the broad evangelical embrace of Trump it wasn't surprising to me that the family could embrace Trump right they can kind of deal with anybody but the broad embrace where what people usually fundamentalist wanted piety in their candidates will Trump wasn't gonna give you that and I found and the writing of one of trumps advisors Lance wall now he says look the way I came to understand this is I went to my Washington friend it's Washington friend is Delco and he explained to me the sheep and the walls but he took it a little bit further he said that the way this is is you go to the wolf pack and you look for the strongest wolf in the pack that's the one you want and you go to that it's the king of the wolves can you go to that wolf King and you say I come representing this other King Jesus and what if I was able to bring that power alongside your power you don't have to love Jesus you just want that power let's make a deal and so that's the Wolfgang and that's speaking Trump's language let's make a deal that's what he's about so the Trump is the Wolfgang in Trump is the wolf King and they have embraced Trump yeah I mean there's I should say I should say to be careful this is not a rigid organization it's a it's best understood in fact as a social movement with a more tightly round core than then they like to acknowledge but you'll find members within it mark sanford who are obviously not Trump errs yeah well he won't talk about his involvement with the family so I mean the question that I had continually had when I was watching this and you're talking about this theology and this this reversal of the the typical understanding of Christianity maybe is is this all in the pursuit of power or do they actually believe it it's kind of a question that we all we often think about with the mega preachers you know do they believe what they're actually saying or they just didn't for the money of interest in it for the power do you have any idea the answer to both questions is yes and I really actually I think I think that is that for those of us concerned about those abuses of power and the separation of church and state the ability to recognize that both these things can be true at once it's going to be absolutely essential for us pushing back because if we keep going toward as I think it's tempting for us to do since the cynical just hypocritical and so on we underestimate we greatly underestimate the strength of that movement and on the other hand if we do that thing that too many and the establishment press do and say well they're sincere so what could be wrong there was actually review with the family someone sort of said but these guys seem to really believe it so that also does not mean that it's okay sincerity is not an excuse and cynicism and hypocrisy is not a full explanation the enduring power of this movement I believe and not just the family but Christian nationalism writ large is its ability to simultaneously be both cynical and naive one of the other you can knock it out easily both it has a force that carries it forward that is a fascinating answer that I'm gonna be thinking about for a long time now you are not really doing that much more work in terms of investigating the family right I mean you've you've written you you've done a whole lot you carry I mean you've carried the ball the entire way nobody else has been helping you there have been other I mean actually in the series we saw Lisa get her people at surprise when a reporter for the LA Times who before me did a front-page expose for the LA Times I mean one of the interesting things about the families I'm not the first to report on this before me there's least together in 2002 she actually came down and was reporting while I was living with them and then I sat with Ed me since he led a special prayer against the evil of the media because I've done this terrific expose it should have made waves before her the AP had looked at their violation of rules you go back to the 70s Playboy magazine does a big expose I think it's Robert Scheer legendary investigative journalist on the way the family is operating as an illegal off the bank's book from members of Congress that should have shut it down you got back back 1950s Washington Post and get it again and again we see it and there's just it doesn't fit within the mold of what we think the Christian Right is supposed to be so it never quite takes you know one of my favorite line that summed it up for me was there was actually it showed your notebook and then there's a it's highlighted and said this is not America I loved it and we're gonna have to leave it there Jeff Sharlet thank you so much for joining us on pre-thought matters we really appreciate your time thank you thank you for watching freethought matters because freethought matters [Music] [Music] [Music] hi i'm steve picker in my book enlightenment now i show that the world has become a better place as reason has been overcoming superstition and tribalism but the values of the Enlightenment are under attack that's why I'm a proud member of the Freedom From Religion Foundation the nation's largest association of free thinkers working to keep state and church separate please join me in supporting the Freedom From Religion Foundation to ensure that our government is driven not by religion but by reason [Music]

Channel: Freedom From Religion Foundation

Views: 6,922

Keywords: Jeff Sharlet, the family Jeff Sharlet, Jeff Sharlet journalist, Jeff Sharlet the family, the family Netflix, Jeff Sharlet c street, Jeff Sharlet faith, Freethought Matters, FFRF, Freedom From Religion Foundation, Atheism, Atheist

Id: a_s2HQiCg1Y

Length: 27min 39sec (1659 seconds)

Published: Thu Jan 02 2020