Jazz talk episode 116 A tribute to Jaco Pastorius

foreign I got some feedback there hi I'm Preston Williams with jazz talk and today on our show we're going to be paying tribute to one of the greatest musicians in history and that musician is bassist and composer Jaco Pastorius now Jocko passed away 35 years ago but his Innovative approach to the electric bases influenced countless musicians especially bass players and today on Jazz talk we're going to be joined by family friends and colleagues to share memories and stories about the great basis and with that being said we're going to get this thing started our very first speaker is Mr John McLaughlin John take us away oh thanks Preston uh gentlemen very nice to see all of you and thank you for this opportunity to speak about dear Joko because my story with Jacob goes back to 1974-75 and I was rehearsing at the sir studio in in New York City and Andrew Jones was not a Michael Baldwin paying base was Ralph Armstrong and Sue Goldberg on keyboards and the door opened and the sky walked in and we all stopped playing and he said hi my name is Jaco Pastorius and I'm the greatest bass player in the world right off so uh I said well I like the way you talk um and we'll just hang her up for a minute we'll finish what we're doing we can jam you know and Ralph was cool with that so uh I I forget even what we played it was probably just a blues and Jaco just floored everybody he was already Amazing by that time and uh so we played for quite a while Ralph joined in it was all of us playing there at one point and and so um well we quit playing uh he said John by the way he said can you lend me twenty dollars I got a flap I just drove up from Florida and my car was parked outside but I have a flat so I gave me the twenty dollars which I never saw ever again oh chuckle um and uh and he said you know I'm looking for a gig I said yeah that's well you know I mean I've got a great bass player already because Ralph Ralph what a beautiful bass player Ralph Armstrong however that I got home that evening and I had to do something I actually called Tony Williams and I said Tony I played with a bass player today who was really terrible um I think if you're looking for a bass player you know I and I had his number or I had a number that contact number for for Jocko and um then I didn't see Jacob for a while after that but I know he was hanging with Tony for a while but I think it was just a question of months that uh Joe zavenel walked into a club oh some date where there was playing I don't know the exact story in that event he hired he hired Jaco on the spot and um and who was the bass player he had at that time in weather report Alfonso Johnson and Alfonso Johnson I think he got by the same day hired Jaco it was uh it was that quick so uh fast forward to 1976 it would be about a year a couple of years later and I already had the Shakti group going and Shakti had weather report were a really good touring combination um and that for me was one of the greatest periods of weather report Jaco was just amazing he he was killing everybody every night you know and he'd do this he'd do the solo thing in in the middle of the show with with this chord thing that he had in on this beautiful town and this fluidity I mean he was amazing what was great was that they were on the side of the stage to Shakti and we were on the side of the stage for weather report so it was a kind of a mutual admiration going on there um so uh that's that you know we we didn't see each other for for quite a while until there was this call from CBS and oh it must be 1978 79 uh to there was a state department tour of of Cuba that was affectionately called the Bay of gigs by everybody and they're there but it was really nice Dexter was on there Stan Getz uh uh Percy he uh Tony was there of course anyway the invite from from CBS was that Tony and Jaco and I should get together and play as a trio down there and I thought it was a beautiful idea because uh I knew Jack who already was going through some issues um I think that it started already with uh he had I'm not sure the time scale because it's a long time ago gentlemen but I know he was with Warner Brothers and some issues started between him and Warner Brothers in any event I thought it was brilliant they were they were agreed so we we met at uh at uh I think was the sil studio downtown in Manhattan and um and we started playing and we each of us had a tune we were going to play three pieces and Johnny Mitchell was there in the studio and um and I think they were hanging together inanimate uh Johnny loved the trio and I have to say the rehearsals that we had were killing I mean Tony and Jaco together I mean how could you not want to play with that you know total inspiration beautiful and Joni came on she said you know I gotta have you guys on the album uh I'm not sure if it was the Mingus album no it was probably some other album anyway um so the next day we were in the studio with Joni and uh we recorded I forgot which tune and um and then uh a little while shortly yeah after a week or so we all left for Cuba um and this was the trio of Doom so affectionately entitled by Jocko and I was really happy to get to these two but Cuba's got such a fantastic reputation in jazz music since the 1940s I mean and the musicians there wonderful um and so we uh we went on stage um but Jaco was in some kind of mood uh I don't know what kind of mode you would call it because he kind of [Music] um went off on a musical limb in the middle of the in the middle of the show um I think it was on a tune of mine which is in c minor and I seem to hear him playing some some a major chords in there which which was uh kind of a contrast uh and none of it you know just well Tony was just like swinging anyway we we just we just kept saying but I know you know Tony wasn't happy uh when we came off I wasn't really thrilled because Jocko you know he was like in the front of the stage and he was doing his this is kind of Jeremy imitation uh I'm killing playing but but uh he was in a some kind of parallel universe in that event it it musically it wasn't what we wanted and it wasn't what CBS wanted and uh and about it so um shortly after that after our our Set uh Tony played with the Jazz Giants uh the guys I just spoke about before and um and Tony had a way when his passions were Rising he she would let it out in such an amazing way and he did the set with the Jazz Giants and I was standing right behind him and Tony was like one of the and I played I mean two years with Tony and I had a lot of concerts but he was I don't know just in a state of grace and but from his from his kind of upsetness you know he was pissed but it came out the music was just phenomenal how Tony was playing with the Jazz Giants it was just amazing anyway quickly fast forward uh to three weeks later we're back in New York and it's a call from CBS and he said and they're saying well you know it's it's um they were it's not exactly what you know what we've imagined it would be I said no it wasn't what we imagined either but he and they said well would you like to go in the studio and and kind of redo it and and I said well listen if if Tony and Jack or they want to do it of course of course I'm there so we went in the studio and uh but it was tense you know uh there was there was a lot of tension and but we played We we played and you know I mean I just I love those guys so much because there was just there were two revolutionaries on their instruments I mean what the impact they had on music the impact they had on me so but it the session didn't end well you know there was the kind of altercation between Tony and Jocko and uh and so that that was the we we had what we recorded Tony ended up walking out of the studio he he wasn't happy at all but the way it was going however we fast forward now a long time uh which was just a few years ago and I got a hold from Sony and they said we want to reissue this and I said well if you know if you give the rights to the you know the Walters to the widows of Jacob and Tony and I'll do an animated compilation of the studio anybody who knows that album The Tree Of Doom you'll hear studio and live versions of the tunes and uh and I really did the best I could on that um and Jacob I will never ever forget charcoal first of all he owes me twenty dollars and his playing um was just extraordinary just what an extraordinary musician he blew my mind and he blew everybody's mind you know may he rest in peace Jocko but I miss him um that's my story gentlemen thank you for sharing John yeah no thank you for the opportunity to tell it because I know I see him right behind you I've got a photo of of on on the beach in in Havana with Joe and Jocko you know swimming trunks you know that's really special to me it really is yeah and if I had it I would show it to you but I don't have it with me sorry gentlemen it's all good anyway I'm gonna bid you farewell uh present thank you I hope it was you edited exactly how you feel but it was a lot to do Jocko honor because I love him and I miss him thank you and John thank your wife too for uh setting this up I'm going to send a copy of this to you uh okay thanks again that's very sweetie gentlemen wonderful evening peace and blessings bye guys okay I guess the next person that can speak is in Brian Melvin I guess [Music] um I'm losing your audio yeah you're a little muffled uh Preston it'll come back we didn't hear what you said can you hear me now yeah okay I was just saying Brian uh Melvin uh you definitely can go next I know you guys are on a different uh time zone like six or seven hours or so ahead so feel free to share something Brian okay uh thank you so much for inviting me Preston um there's so much to recollect you know or reflect on about Jocko for me um there's so many stories actually you know because of uh we hung out a lot pretty much in the last like five years of his career I would say [Music] um you know I just feel very thankful for having the opportunity to to be his friend you know we were friends and uh confided in each other a lot and we were we were fortunate to to go into the studio and we made some nice records together I don't know if you ever heard standard zones but that was uh you know I was really young when we made that and it became a number one on record I remember the record company calling me up and saying hey Brian you got the number one record on radio and I just uh to be honest with you it really didn't even uh it wasn't that big a deal to me you know I mean I just wasn't even kind of used to that kind of stuff but um we played a lot of gigs and there's a I mean this would think about this would take a long time for me to go through a lot of stories but um you know um like I said I just feel very fortunate to to have played with them you know he was a drummer and um my background you know I knew a lot of the old jazz jazz coming up I was good friends like with Alvin and Mac s and Billy Joe and all kinds of guys and his dad was a drummer so he was really interested in in drums and uh one thing he would do he would say hey show me how this guy did this or how that guy did that I'd do my best and then he hits it on the drums and say hey check this out and I loved his drumming you know I mean he had a he had a great a great sense of feel and time and all that kind of stuff yeah you know I mean uh maybe there's a question you'd like to ask and I could maybe you know respond from that yeah I guess I do have a question uh can you hear me yep yeah with the standard zones uh I guess that was done in what 85 86 maybe like a year or two before he passed away uh because I thought his playing was great on there what what state of mind was he in during that time period uh when you guys recorded that um Jaco was really interesting when he stayed with me he stayed at my house in San Francisco a few times um i i i i sprung him from Bellevue because when I went there and saw him there I just said this ain't the place for him so we invited to stay in my house in San Francisco and when he came he became very close with my mom and my mom was very old Italian old school and he had nothing but respect for her and when she said hey Jocko being by 10 he was in by 10 and you know it was like it was um well here's the one of the stories is he got off the planning and uh he didn't have anything with him except a little a little plastic bag and inside the plastic bag he had just his thong s he came home and my father had just passed away so he took my dad's room and he stayed in the room besides eating like for three days and he read the Bible the whole time and then he came out and said I'm ready let's go let's go hit let's go play Let's Go record so when we me him and John Davis were were rehearsing a lot downstairs in the little room the rehearsal room but when we went to record he was very um he was very right there I mean you can hear it on the records um you know we played a lot of sports together you know we played a lot of basketball because I was I was an athlete coming up and who used to love going to the gym and playing basketball and I take pride in the fact he could never beat me and that used to really piss him off um so yeah you know we went to the beach and did all the the normal things and every now and then you'd see he'd go off the rails you're like you might not see him for a day or you can go out and visit other musicians and bands and stuff like that but all in all um he was pretty he was pretty in good uh Spirits in good shape uh when he was with us in San Francisco yeah thanks for sharing that man anyway uh God bless Jocko and there's so much to share and I'm sure everybody has their stories but I feel very fortunate in my lifetime and in my career to call him a friend and uh leave a little music behind thanks everyone great thank you Brian all right man who wants to go next okay I go Alex thank you Preston and everybody that is here really uh you know this is a special moment uh I met Jaco through Don Elias I'm not here to correct any anything uh it's just gonna tell the story that I know that I live with him I live with Jaco B uh don't lie I used to come to Las Vegas I was working in Las Vegas 1973 and 74 and I met in 75 and he brought me the cassettes of recording that he did Donna Lee and the poet the portrait of I was a portrait of Tracy and when I heard that I said is that a ffect the roads no no no that's a base I said wow anyhow so we became very good friends and actually I left the Hilton International Hilton that was my steady check because don't Elias invited me to play jazz so I met David Leeman and Richard Bayer Jim Perla in those days you know and uh this is 1975. and uh I he recommended the World Report three months later when they were looking for a percussionist and that's when I met Samuel he came to Las Vegas and we spoke and then to make the long story short and the beginning of 76 we actually we started in December 75 at the beginning of 76 we kind of were recording Black Market and just like John said you know um Alfonso Johnson left because he had an opportunity to to do a solo album for a company and they start auditioning bass players the weather report during Black Market at Devonshire Studios John John Melo the engineer he did all the albums of weather report anyhow bass player from many different parts of uh you know like Canada inclusive and Philadelphia New York and nobody was able to cut a song that um they put it on the music stand it was for Cannonball that's the name of the song It's a ballet two three days and nobody was carrying it and uh Michael Walden came they asked me who's who do you think we want to have another drummer so I said I I NADA or whatever however they pronounce it and um so he came and then uh Jacob came this way I said hey yo I know a bass player that I heard and don't Elias play me the tape his name is Jaco Pastorius and Wayne was there by this inside the studio by the board you know with the engineer we were talking and and Wayne said yeah Kirby Herby told me about him because I think Kirby play with him or her be playing in Jaco's album anyhow so Joseph call him okay I called Don't Elias and we call Jacko the next day Jaco comes over and uh I met Jaco for the first time in those days weather report didn't have an enough money to really Place Us in different rooms that's what I said at the beginning I live with that we were roommates Jago and I in the same room two beds and we hung out uh get up early every morning jog swim having fruit based and fruit and yogurt stuff as breakfast and then go early to to the rehearsal Studio I mean not to rehearsal to the studio but anyhow before all the all of this uh Jacob comes and and he comes inside the studio and he had his record two of them one for Joe and one for Wayne and before we say hello and everything he throw he throw his record to Joe over the the recording board you know and Joe grab it as a frisbee and he looked at the album and he turned around oh yeah Kirby is here okay I give her a listen because Harvey is playing great and put it on the side and Jaco said this you know the word that he's used this is the best s you wanna hear in you if life you know for the record and and you'll say I like you already like that you know and uh so Jaco say by the way I don't have audition so I noticed that you guys uh auditioning bass player here you say no no we just came until you arrive and uh he's testing some some things yeah they were auditioning so me and Jaco go outside he's on top of the car every time he saw the sun he took his shirt off and just lay on top of his shirt by the sand you know like if he was in the beach you know and we're talking about the music and don't lies and everything that he you know he was telling me about his family and so it's time for him to go inside the studio and play and guess inside the base the other bass player is leaving you know packing up his stuff and Jaco is and say Alex can you uh play me the a please I want to tune my I said are you sure it's the a or the or the G you know just kidding well give me the eight so I went to the piano and he started tuning perfectly you know I mean incredible in those days they they didn't use like now the bass players they use some kind of a gadget you know to tune up the base you know he's just tuned by ear perfectly that's the first thing I noticed whoa and he opened about five six pages maybe on the song because the song was a long tune and he put his own glasses huge big glasses and uh Narda already knew the song because he played many times with many bass players so he knew it by heart and we started playing the song ah by the time by the way it also don't Elias came and so he joined us in that recording and uh the first take we did is the one that they used that's the one that is in the album see nobody knows about this only me Joe is not here and Wayne is at home Elias is not here I was there now that maybe remember that and uh the first take is the one that is in the album so everything that he played everything that he embellished with the base that's a first take that they kept and the rest is history he became the main bass player for this wonderful group we became very close and every night that we were rooming together after we played we went to the room he put his neck of the base on the door because maybe it was 11 p.m you know and I get my brushes and we start playing you know all the way shorter Tunes you know and then he said you know all these tools I said man I listened to windshield since I discovered him so he said well how about with you tomorrow we we go early and you and I just played based in drums I said sure because I was playing only percussion and I never sit and anybody's drum set because I respect that it's not my chair I'm not going to see it over anyhow and we were playing and Joe came early and he saw me behind the drones I said man Alex I didn't know you play drums and Jacob said I want others to be the drummer in the band you know so that's how I became the drummer in the band so I had to learn the songs The Way Chester was playing in those days with weather report so it won't be so much change of sound or concept for the songs I follow Chester's lead musically and um but Jacob and I really became very good friends he came to visit me to Las Vegas with my family I went to Fort Lauderdale to visit him um hear him play soccer I play soccer I still do play soccer and uh he played basketball but we love to run together and and Jog a lot and I shall keep the basketball and he and he got the soccer ball and throw it in the basket you know things like that but um I miss him uh there's more stories than this I just wanted to kind of say the beginning how we're reporting those days we got paid 400 a week and um to jump to the end of my time we will report I left with a report because I wanted to raise my family so I Stay to become a studio musician in Los Angeles and it's been very good for my life and uh Jacob was sad he said man Alex I saw him I said I know man but I have three children and I I need to be home so I sacrificed that for my family which is actually excellent because they do an amazingly good and uh Joe called me and said man Alex I'm gonna miss you I said I know I'm sorry man you know and when he said Alex what can we do but I start I I kept playing with Joe and Wayne in the records and tours and with John my tour in Europe and uh Jacob was living in New York and he used to call me five o'clock in the morning Los Angeles time for him was eight o'clock in the morning and uh he wanted me to go to New York to play with him you know but uh he didn't sounded that good in those days uh 78 79 80 and uh I said yeah yeah wait for me I'll be there okay and I never show up you know I kind of like because I knew him when uh he was kinda changing his directions the directions of his life but musically speaking when we did heavy weather I know I'm talking of many things but it's about Jaco uh there is a song called the juggler on heavy weather semi-classical song song Beautiful and it's just quartet it's the four of us we play and we were rehearsing that song Joe got deleted but with no core changes because Joe wrote it and I think he did it on purpose he wanted to see who Jacob was going to go so Jack would say Hey Joe you don't have court changes in this songs and Joe said well find them I like that so Jack will say okay great he goes to the to his left side of the piano and started kind of following him so this is another thing you know all the notes they're my favorite notes that is play on that song al-jacos amazing harmonies like he used with Joe's playing so that also is a you know jackal wasn't amazing because in those days also after the tours and things like that he said hey Wayne can I borrow one of your soprano and we say yeah take this one so he comes six months later and he's playing the soprano you know he was that kind of a musician many people didn't really know all these things because I never been spoken uh before about it you know the Beautiful musician that he was incredible person he had a he had a great heart he was raised Catholic and uh so we were able to talk about our our spiritual lives you know like that that's what we really Bond very close you know I know there are many more stories I just wanted to say who was his musically he was he spiritually physically and mentally when I started noticing that he was changing uh it was time for me to leave the band so I left and uh I still miss him I miss Joe and Jaco very much and don't Elias of course but uh I had an incredible experience I tell everyone that uh when they interview me what did I learn with them I said you know it's like being with Michael Jordan Kobe Bryant and LeBron Wayne Jaco You Know You're Gonna Play You're Gonna Play great because you're in the middle of some some amazing genius players you know so and for me was an incredible experience uh learning okay the Dynamics and the voicings and the choices of notes Jackal was so precise about that he had incredible ears um with with I'm gonna say one last thing I think him and Joe never like for people to know that they practice every day they say red every day Joe was a a studio musician in Vienna and uh so but they talk to each other so one day he's staying at the sunset Marquis oh by the way by the time I left with a report we were making five thousand dollars a week in Thursday it was a lot of money because you know the band really grew up I mean we were playing for 35 000 people concerts you know especially in Europe and uh so we we stay in the sunset Marquis and I knew how to get to his room by the back door and I saw Jacko reading cello books I said aha I saw you I I see what you do I see how you prepare yourself you know and probably this is the first time I'm saying this but Jaco used to practice cello books on the base side reading you know so anyhow I know that this will uh be remembered I hope the things that many people don't know about Jaco like like I did you know I was very close with Tracy we were very good friends uh anyhow thank you for inviting me Preston and think of everybody Mark and and everybody that I see you know Berlin thank you excuse me March 2nd Joe Walsh oh yeah you remember that they said don't go into this area because it might not be safe and the first thing you and I did is we went into that area do you remember laughs yeah that's right Marseille we went to Marseille that's right with Joe Walsh that's right one real nicely what you were saying with Jaco 2 when we were there we will report and uh we had a day off and taco find out about the trip you know a tourists boat was leaving to go to Chateau de if Conde De Monte Cristo in the middle of a the Mediterranean Ocean you know and so he and invite Manolo and uh Harvey shops Who was the the coordinator of the trips and the four of us went and before we jump in the boat with the tourists he said let's let's have some shark soup so we did we had a shark soup we went with everybody in the boat and then when we arrived there they could say ah let him go you know I didn't came here to to see this uh and I want to swim in the Mediterranean so I said but Jacob we don't have bathing suits he said who cares you know he naked boon jump in the Mediterranean you know and Manolo follow him I follow him and and also Harvey shops we were swimming about 20 25 minutes talking about Jacques Cousteau and all that you know talking about many things about the Mediterranean Sea Ocean right and then Jack would say okay time to go you know he started climbing up because he was very agile so he was able to really you know the seven a good wall he he made it and I made it too but Manolo and Harvey they try to and every time they get a balloon they drop again into the water and that happened about five times and I say Jaco come on man let's help him he said no no no leave me leave him leave him there I mean they they have to come out I said no no no no no no no no no no no I'm not going to leave them come on so I I kind of made a a not all the the pants and everything you know to so we pulled Manolo and and Harvey I said were you serious were you really going to leave him there he said yeah of course of course that was Taco he wasn't kidding though oh my God but I have a lot of stories like that everybody that's just one of them anyhow man so good to see you God bless you all and have a wonderful Sunday and next week thank you so much Alex for sharing that thank you bye-bye thank you thank you feel free to jump in whoever wants to go next oh you have somebody on that line man to go next Preston I know someone else is out there they must step forward yeah I'm just waiting for someone to speak up yeah I I could go because it's a short story yeah that'd be great um okay um like everybody when I first heard that record you know his first solo record it was yeah I mean there were no words uh it was simply beyond belief you know I came from a violin background so I wanted he liberated my kind of views and that I could maybe pursue my own sort of aggressive I would call it bass play as a younger man and uh really I'd only met it's funny we shared a great number of very close friends in common but our paths never crossed except I heard it at him all the time and all the group said he had been playing it so I was at MIT at that time I think Steve Bailey you were there at that time and we were teaching and uh the day before there was a sort of a little mini NAMM Show at a hotel and he he was there and wanted to play but didn't have a base so I loaned in my face we chatted hello how are you um I think this was at a time when his difficulties were being known so he took my bathe and played the next day I'm at am I and um um they set up a little Jam for he and I I think Frank gambali played with him and then I played with him uh where we played invitation and there was no drummer it was just two bassists and it it there's a video of it that uh somebody had filmed it and it seemed to have gotten some some uh people seemed to like it and it sort of showed Jocko sounding very strong uh you know Jocko wise very powerful that thingy did and I just sort of was on top chords on top solo lines on top when he went on top I went down in the bottom and we jammed for about 15 minutes there's a video of it afterward we hung out for a few moments afterward and shared some pleasant trees he was very forthcoming to me I told him he was a hero to me and uh literally that's the extent of my relationship with Jaco I mean we had so many friends in common but really the only time that I had ever played with him was at MIT when uh when they had set it up for us and uh it was just a jam it you know two bases just sort of an early sort of version of two bass players playing together and uh that's really my story it's quick and and centered and uh I'm not sure that I qualify to be here amongst everybody considering all of your deeper relationships with Jaco Pastorius but my only sort of thing is I I had a little at that time I mean I guess a little rep in the virtuoso area of Base he of course did so there was sort of an interest in in us both he far more than I and uh here I am so just relating this to you guys and really seeing you all uh people I've played with John and I toured he was kind enough to have me in his Trio and it was he and I and trilog gertu and then Alex and I played in a couple of variation groups and one we did sort of with a rock thing for for Yamaha with that Joe Walsh and Lenny white if you're here it's great to uh you know we played together quite a bit he played uh in trails with Scott Henderson and I in Europe um I'm not sure who else is here Steve Bailey is here I'm very happy to see you man um and wish you love and uh to everybody else I sent you this thing that's basically my story I hope wasn't there a disappointing one I don't think so I don't I don't think it's disappointing uh Jeff I I think it I mean I knew Jocko and like you and like everybody else when we first heard that that first recording our minds just like what is this we didn't know what it was as a matter of fact uh I think that came out um a year later I got married and had a bachelor party and we just spent the whole night listening to Jocko's first record and tripping over it I mean you know my bachelor party was rather tame it was all musicians all my boys and we just jammed and we just listened to music all night we especially listened to Jocko and all the bass players there you know young cat you know because we're all getting the Stanley Clark and I was like oh man Stanley's bad he's like killing but there's enough there's another cat man you gotta hear right and so you know that was that was my bachelor party maybe I should have had a little different like maybe by everybody else but I wasn't until we go there um but a few years later you know once I kind of got on the circuit and started working with uh you know a cast like Archie ship and McCoy Tyner um I went to Brazil and I believe mark was on this Mark Egan was on this because he was playing with Pat Metheny and I remember the uh the place because it was a huge I don't know it was like a soccer stadium that was concrete yes he had all these great musicians that had Al Jarreau he had weather report he had Pat Metheny had McCoy Tyner he had slide Hampton and it sucked in terms of the sound the only ones that really sounded good were you mark Pat Latina y'all sounded great everybody else signed it but anyway that was the first time I met um net job and I think that might have been the first time I met you mark and um you know then a couple years later you know I had a jazz base and I took the Frets off like everybody you know we all did and I started playing and I was like sounds too much it sounds like job I mean you can't every time you hit you play a fretless base at least me I just couldn't couldn't get Jacko out of my head so I decided to not we lost you your your audio or I did anybody else yeah I did too okay have y'all been hearing me yeah I know in fact now you just went out for a second you're good now but like I said you know I took my my pulled my Frets out of my jazz base like everybody else and and I was just like man Jocko just to me that's that's the measure of a great musician is not just your Technique but when you change the way everybody thinks about the instrument you know it's like it's like Parker or train you know it's like people are not going to look at it the same way and and when when Jocko played that was it I mean he changed us like dang what where do you go from there I mean this cat is just doing everything that that you can possibly do I mean uh his imagination obviously was just and sound was was was obviously um incredible but you know and Jack would come see us play you know in New York and this was you know when he was going through his changes and it was um it was a good cat but I mean that was hard that was hard to see you know uh when he was when he was changing up and we would come see us play and go see him play and it's like Jocko what's going on and it just he was he was not connecting you know and sometimes you go see him play he wasn't you know connected and and sometimes he would do a gig uh you know at a club and I go see him like what's up Jocko and he'd be complaining about something that I had no idea what he was talking about and then he would go back on stage and play like 45 minutes solo you know the club was over and it's like the cat's like trying to cut off the lights and Jack was still like he like he couldn't stop playing anything but um I mean he was just a an amazing you know I mean everybody knows that he's just an amazing cat and um just changed the way we think about bass that's that's right that's incredible can I share one quick addendum just for a quick one please do uh year uh right after uh Jocko's impact I had a base and I had pulled the Frets out of it um I lied later saying oh no I never did that I you know people said well I heard you on whatever record and you you sound fretless oh gosh no no no I never wasn't me it wasn't me but it's sort of pre-therapy Jeff you know I I couldn't Own It Anyway at the time I had the base and that very night the very first gig I ever used my fretless bass was at uh Carnegie Hall when I played with Ray Barretto and then about I don't know a month or two later it sort of occurred to me maybe is it did with you is that um perhaps this uh fretless is such a powerful sound that maybe I ought to go back to Frets and just keep investigating that so I went back to the fretted base and have been on it pretty much since I guess whenever but it was a small period where I definitely went born [Laughter] hey Preston sir yeah I'll uh are you getting my audio yeah yeah you're good you're nice and clear Steve yeah um uh thank you all man what a what a cool uh hang to see see uh faces from the past and and a couple new ones I hadn't seen Alex since golly I mean when I first moved to LA we played played some together but in Avery it's great to see you too man yeah and uh of course Mark yeah another one of my heroes in here along with Jeff um that that kind of uh definitely uh influences but my uh Jaco for me I mean of course most of us remember the first time we heard that record but uh when I went to University of Miami I was playing a gig in uh in Fort Lauderdale I'll say I'll preface it by saying this this is Jocko got me fired from a gig and got me an audition with weather report all in the same night and and kind of sets that up and and those of you who knew Jocko it it makes makes a ton of sense at least in retrospect but but I was playing with this drummer Duffy Jackson and uh Duffy it just come off the road um with the Bassy band and uh uh and it was settling back into Florida and he put together a band of some great great musicians John Hart on guitar and and uh Mario Cruz and and uh another guy and we're all students and playing but we played at a place called uh uh the cafe exchange the Musicians Exchange on on Sunrise Boulevard in Fort Lauderdale I see Mark knows that Turf um hey Mark so I remember getting to the parking lot and and you walk up these stairs and and I'm carrying my upright bass in my electric base and they said hey man Jocko's up there and it's just funny how all of a sudden my base got heavier everything felt like and I'm looking at those stairs going am I ready to go up and and and whatever is going to happen it was just it was terrifying and exciting at the same time so I remember going up there and my same friend that told me that Jocko was up there took me over and said I want to introduce you and and I still had my upright bass carrying it the way we carry it and uh and and he took me over to where Jaco was standing who was there for an early party they used to have parties in the afternoon like a some kind of function but but he said yeah man he goes uh yeah so-and-so was just telling me about you goes I'm going to try to hang for a couple tunes and uh and I thought oh man there goes my world and uh sure enough you know we we set up and played and uh and I remember we were playing our second song was uh um the Herbie Hancock tune that everybody plays boom boom boom boom and uh and Duffy gave me a big solo on that and I remember playing and I opened my eyes and looked down and there's Jocko at the front of the stage and it was first set not many people there and he's just kind of looking at me puzzled and as our eyes meet he he just looks at me and he just shakes his head like this and turns around and walks to the door which was off to the right and he leaves and I thought that didn't you know I'm glad that's over whatever it was and I went about the gig and and during the second set the place was packed by then um I saw it was a crowd of stand they were sitting and then standing towards the stage and I saw this Jazz base cutting through the crowd like a shark's fin it was held up over and and sure enough Jocko pops out right in front with his Jazz base he keeps coming and jumps up onto this about a two foot high stage and unplugs my upright bass um plugs right in uh looks at me and said let's play and I can you imagine as a college student what that felt like all of a sudden I went from being dejected he he just left and didn't dig me and I got over that and the next thing I know he came back and and he jumps up there but anyway I'm I'm immediately uh that's where my head was and and and everything about it and I've talked to the other guys in the band since then but but little did I know that he and Duffy had had a thing going for a while and it wasn't a really positive thing and and I turned around look at Duffy and we're playing and Jocko's playing and and he just looks at me and he says the stage which is get him off the stage in in I can't hear what he's saying but I can read his lips and and I turn around look at Jocko and I'm thinking my you know my hero is on the stage with me and my boss is telling me to get him off the stage and um uh well you know who I ignored and uh and there's a lesson in there too but uh uh I just turned around and we went back to playing in Duffy um took a break uh we played one more song he thought Jocko was going to leave he starts his song and we played another another song and Jocko continued to play and he was trading with everybody and and it it was so surreal but Duffy abruptly calls a break and and I didn't know it at the time but he left the building he left he got in his van and he left the gig he was so pissed and uh and meanwhile I'm hanging with Jocko on the break time's still going by and Don the owner I'll never forget he comes up to me goes I don't know where Duffy is but you guys are supposed to be playing and uh I said okay and I went and got the other guys and and Duffy was nowhere to be found and of course Jocko without missing a beat said I'll play drums and and without missing a beat I said okay and uh so we jumped up on the stage on a Duffy Jackson gig with Jocko playing drums and we continued to play for about two or three songs until this other uh drummer showed up that I knew from the college a guy named Bill kreitner and uh uh he jumped up and and I never thought about Duffy again uh for another hour to until the end of the night and we played that set and we played another set back then you know three sets four sets a night and uh at the end of the night I'm sitting at the corner of this bar and uh and I'm I'm hanging with Jocko and I don't remember what we're talking about but I remember behind him if y'all remember a lot of bars had telephones hanging on the wall this was on a post that was going up I still see it and had one of those long um curly cords really long like that you could stretch out to probably 20 feet and and I'm talking to Jocko and and I see the bartender and head this way with the phone holding it like that and uh the bartender said hey it's Duffy he wants to talk to you and I picked up the phone and uh and I said hey Duffy where'd you go and he said he didn't even answer he said you're fired um no more we're done click oh boy and I looked at Jocko I looked at him and I said uh that was Duffy he just he just fired me all of this this emotion this up and down this adrenaline was just going so strong but without missing a beat Jocko said hey man you you don't need this gig anyway it's and uh uh I was like no thinking okay but thinking I do need this gig this gig is three nights a week and it pays it pays my bills um but I was still hanging with Jocko and and it went on finally he said you want to come back to the house with me and to his house and I said well sure um and I I we were playing the next night so I left my stuff at the club and he said we'll make one stop on the way back and we stopped and we picked up Othello Molino who I knew of but I didn't know him and we picked him up in Jocko's little Volkswagen and uh and I remember at his house I'll never forget this the door was open and there was a train these train tracks ran in in the northern Lauderdale down there and I heard this train whistle off to the distance and Jocko looks at me says do you hear that and I said yeah and he said now that's music talking about the the and I was it was just so weird to me at the time okay he thinks that's music all right and it took in retrospect it all makes sense but I was 22. we get back to his house and I'm sitting on the floor at his house playing the bass of Doom speaking of trios of Doom that John talked about just freaking out playing Jocko's instrument sitting there and Othello had steel drums there and he was goofing around and I didn't I had been working on coltrane's Giant Steps solo you know working through that if I got about the first three or four courses and uh so I had that I'd been working on that in my lesson I should say all of a sudden Othello just starts playing that solo it turns out he had been working on it too and uh and I just jumped in in unison with him and and played the until I ran out of what I knew and Othello just kept going and I remember Jocko was just like over there going all right all right what's going on now and we just hung out about four in the morning uh uh another phone instant Jocko is we're all sitting on the floor at this time now listening to Lee Morgan's Sidewinder and I'll never forget it um uh because Jocko said he was learning that song He was going to transcribe it for for his group at some point but he's on the phone and he just turns back and he hands it to me and he said he said here talk to Joe and I'm like Joe I and I pick up the phone I say hello he goes hello this is Joe and and what I now know is to be the Joe zavonal accent and he said he said Jocko was just telling me that you play pretty good and uh and Jocko and Mark remembers this I'm I'm sure Jocko was was uh committed to picking his replacement in weather report it didn't happen but he he had this fixation with he was going to name his successor almost like you know I'm going to hand the crown off and and so he was out of the band but still kind of uh uh working towards his replacement so I think he thought anyway Joe said he said uh uh get my get Management's information from uh from Jocko and call them tomorrow and and get ready to fly out there and uh and I did I set it all up and they said you know FedEx was pretty new then but it still worked and I was getting sent a ticket via FedEx you know way before digital ticketing and and uh and it was like the audition we had set up it was going to be on Friday in Hollywood I'd only been to California once and uh uh but I was gonna fly out there and and do it and they said you'll have your ticket by Wednesday so Wednesday evening nothing showed up and I'd gotten Jocko's number at that point I hadn't talked to him since that night and I called him up and he answered and once again the adrenaline starts going and I'm freaking out oh my God I mean it's like it's it's like my students now if they got to call Mark Egan or Jeff or Avery they'd just be freaking and I was freaking and uh Jocko said oh man he goes uh let me check on that and sure enough he made some calls and 20 minutes later my phone rings and and he and he goes hey man it's Jocko he goes uh I got some good news and bad news for you which do you want first and uh I said I guess I'll take the bad news and uh he said well the bad news is is they already got somebody and Joe called off the auditions and didn't tell anybody and I thought all right if that's the bad news what what could possibly be and I said so what's what's the good news he said well the good news is the guy they got his last name is Bailey too and he said his name is Victor Bailey that's the good news that's the good news you know your name will carry on even though you get an audition but but it it it was the first time I heard anybody mention Victor Bailey I didn't know about him at the time and and to hear Jocko mention him I thought wow okay um but but that was the beginning of a really cool uh kind of friendship I mean it was it was that I mean Jocko if you knew him um especially at that time this was 1982. he he would call me sometimes at seven in the morning he was going through a state a manic state of he was just he didn't sleep and uh and I remember once the phone rings at seven in the morning and he says man come up to my house it was an hour drive from I lived in in Coral Gables and he was all the way up in Deerfield he said come on up and uh and and let's get to work and I had no idea what he was talking about but I blew off all my classes and jumped in the car and drove up there and I I pull up and he's he's in the yard uh mowing the grass and and it's just that that day I mean with Jocko I had quite a few first and and that as odd as it sounds that's when I met Ingrid his wife and uh and she um invited me to stay I think it was for dinner um because I'd been there all day and uh and I had my very first split pea soup at Jocko's house I'd never had split pea never even heard of it I'm from South Carolina and and uh and later on I I uh months later I had my very first uh sushi with Jocko I'd never had sushi and he took me to this place in Lauderdale where where he walked in the door and all the chefs wave at him and and and and he ordered um uh oh what is the I can't think of what it's called right now but it's the yellow stuff in in a hand uni yeah that is a tough initiation for your first sushi right it on a scale of one to five it's right in there about a 4.5 and I hadn't I hadn't even had a tuna or anything yet that was the first thing he ordered as a hand roll and I've been into this thing and I about threw it up right then the smell of it and everything and Jocko's eating it away and uh and he goes and I am not wanting to be rude and spit it into a napkin and uh he he said you know how do you like it oh man it's great it's great thank you forcing this thing down and uh and I finally got it down and he looks at me he said uh well how'd you like that and I said well it was great and he said uh futatsu kudasai which means two more and I was like no no that was my my first introduction to Sushi and then I thought you know do you do what you do I said I'll pick up the bill but he was ordering the whole time there was no menu and and we were sneaking beers and sake when Ingrid she was with us she went to the bathroom and uh so it was a full-on full-blown night of sushi and I thought the least I can do is pay the bill and I'm thinking you know maybe it's 10 or 15 dollars a piece or something I I and and uh I got the bill and I grabbed the bill from I said I got this i got this and remind you I'm a college student and I looked at this bill and and I about threw up again but I went ahead and and of course I I paid for it and uh and that was fun we had sushi quite a few times after that my first time juggling was with Jocko on the beach we I went up there several times and we go down to the beach and he would swim this from point to point and he'd come in on the beach and he taught me to juggle and um but probably the biggest biggest honor um he called me one time he said man you got to get up here and this was this was about a year later maybe uh I I could figure out easily what the exact day was um because of what happened he said come up to my house now and he we got in his car and we drove to the hospital and he said I want you to meet my boys and uh uh it was he took me in the hospital I knew Ingrid was pregnant I could see that but I didn't uh uh it didn't occur to me but I went there and go into this room and and he points at at one on each side of Ingrid's chest her holding him there she he said that's Felix I think and that's Julius and uh and and I'm I met his kids the the day they were born there it's funny uh when I did finally meet Julius I was hoping he would show up and and we've talked about this before but I I didn't see him again for 19 years until he was 19 and came to one of the Wooten camps that we do and uh he's six seven at that point in in a spitting image of his dad and I said I said um Felix you don't remember the first time we met do you and he goes no I didn't think we'd ever met and I said ask your mom and uh um I said I met you what I saw first was your butt and you were only about that big at the time and I I reminded it right he never knew that I was there that the day day he was born but I'll say this and shut up because I don't want I'll I'll go back to one thing that uh um uh that was said earlier that Alex said the cello etudes that was another thing that that Jocko turned me on to um way back then and I know Mark man he's a Florida guy the dots hour etudes uh books one two and three and Nobody messes with four much but but those I still use in my teaching and I think about it you know whenever I do from where they came was was uh just technical studies that um that that Jocko used so Allah oh there's a story about a hernia can't go there now uh there's some stuff in Europe with word of mouth and 83 I just by the time I got out of school I was lucky enough to get a really good gig and be on the same uh George ween kind of tour going all throughout Europe with word of mouth so there was a whole nother era of of our relationship on the road um but even after Jocko passed I would go visit Ingrid and and see the twins occasionally and uh I think the the last time before she passed I went up there and uh and she was talking about what life after Jocko has been like and had been been quite a few years decades since he had passed but but uh she said look outside and look down down the street just down one house and there was a car parked out there and she said they show up all the time and she said often and which is people sitting in the car looking out the window taking pictures of the house and I said after all these years they still get come she goes she said yeah they come it was from Asia in Europe and they sit there and she'll go out and she'll offer him water and something to drink and and she she brings them up and I said well do you give them to her I mean what what do you do um she said you know I just I thank them for keeping his legacy alive and and all of that and there's there's one picture I mean I've got a bunch of pictures but I I'm I'm gonna throw this up there and and uh but this one is one on his porch where he stepped in concrete um let me see let me see if I can enlarge that but and I wish but that's Jocko's footprint that they had they had out it was it's pushed into the concrete when they poured the concrete way back when and I don't know if it's Ingrid or the twins or something I wanted to ask Julius about that but I remember her saying that that she would show show those uh Footprints to the people who who came from from far far away and it meant a lot to them so I'll shut up that's enough out of me but uh maybe another time we'll uh we'll dig deeper there there was a side of Jocko that uh that was um is is like uh tender in giving you know you hear people talking about him him yeah I'm the greatest bass player in the world that's the greatest record you're ever going to hear and that was one side of him but but I feel fortunate that I got got to know that the the other side of Jocko and and the one that was that was in a lot of pain and and would talk about it and uh um yeah it was just an interesting period in my life when I moved to New York when I got that gig and uh and Jocko had just transitioned up there full time too it was uh it was tough to watch some of it but but deep down under all of that under under whatever was going on in whatever his circumstances was um those of you got to see him you could Jocko was still in there and uh and and the Beautiful part of them so I'll I'll uh always be grateful um uh maybe if we ever have a adult's only session um uh where there's no danger of me losing my job at Berkeley or anything else uh uh you know there's another side of Jocko that that was very instructive um as an adult and and I often say this with people I learn so much from people about how I want to grow up and what I want to be like and what I don't want to be like and and I thank Jocko for teaching me a lot of that early on you know there there's there's good things to be taken away from everyone and there's also uh life lessons to be learned and and boy did we have some fun in Europe and that's all I was 23. you know what are you gonna do uh but we'll talk about it some other day right I I just want to jump in very very quickly and please do I have a question for Steve which is um I always wanted to ask this and I think I'll do it now if you don't mind uh the fretless base is a hard instrument to present in a kind of a an original sound especially in the harmonics but Steve invented a harp sound that I've never heard anybody else ever do and I just wanted to know how do you do it where you change voicings when you play like that because that's really quite original well it it thank you for that uh uh um and I'm sitting here with Mark Egan who was one of my hugest influences on fretless bass as much as Jocko because I listen um I mean Jocko is like a meteor coming out of the sky I couldn't even relate to most of that but but Mark like brought it into with Pat um in in the those late 70s around in there when I was at North Texas and and this was before I had met Jocko but I went to hear Mark um with Pat at North Texas may have been one of your first gigs with him from what I remember talking to Lyle and some other guys but but anyway it's funny you mentioned that Jeff I mean I'm a proponent of there was no YouTube back in our day there was no uh instructional videos there were no DVDs everything I can speak for everybody up here because we're kind of all in the same in the in in the same decade or decades there of of learning we learned everything we did from a piece of vinyl um and picking up the needle and going back and forth and and it was Jocko's harmonics where the first I ever heard used especially the artificial harmonics um but I didn't know how he did it and I had no way to learn how he did it I I tried to figure out a way myself of using my index finger as as the node instead of the thumb as Jocko does using index finger and then plucking with these two and it it leads me back to a Jocko story because his wife I mean his mom Stephanie used to come to the gigs that I did after I'd met Jocko and I met his mom she would come and occasionally he would come with her and they they would just sit unobtrusively over there on the side and I remember one time um during a gig uh sitting there at the table and his and his mom liked to I think she just did it to bug Jocko but I'd sit down at the table and she would say oh you sounded amazing that was just so good and and I think she was just there was something Dynamic going on between Stephanie and Jocko but but anyway he said you know the way you do your harmonics it just doesn't get the tone and and I went what do you mean um he says it just doesn't get the tone and uh he runs and grabs four-string bass which is all we any of us had back then we were all playing four string five string didn't even exist and he he picks it up and and starts playing the melody to Birdland the way he does it and uh and and I'll tell the story another day but it went on a few rounds basically me arguing with a living legend defending my technique which I should have known better in another life lesson learned uh uh why argue you know just just hey man whatever but but I I basically said hey if you're going to point at something you use your index finger so you can be more accurate and I've been working on Donnelly and other Bebop lines in artificial harmonics and I played that he goes yeah yeah that's cool but you just don't get the tone and he picks the bass back up and he starts getting some of those other pinched harmonics that you can get higher up the string and he said you just don't get that tone and I said but but Jocko another mistake number two um uh I said because of my finger I can rake over it and if I finger my left hand in in the shape of a a Triad I can just rake right over and get gring and get three notes at once okay he said yeah but it just doesn't get the tone and he picks it back up and he starts doing his thing and I had a whole bunch of them I said well Jocko with this method it frees my right hand thumb to pluck a note and play a harmonic simultaneously so I can play unisons that are two octaves three octaves apart if I keep my hands like that he goes yeah but it just doesn't get the tone and uh and then I showed him that I was working on these country things are playing the bass line and the harmonics simultaneously and and basically uh I said Jocko there's no way that you can do that with your Technique and he just looks at me with that koi look the sparkle in his eye goes Steve I don't need to do that thank God thank God what if I convinced him like and then he goes oh yeah I'm gonna try this I'm going to just turn it around I'm gonna do all that I'd be sitting there later going you're not going to believe this but I showed Jocko this stuff way back in the day and everybody be like get out of here kid you go away you bother me Jocko pioneered that but but it it thank you for bringing that up Jeff but it was another lesson for me in in how we can all arrive at the same destination of getting my goal was to get harmonics like I heard Jocko do it and because there was no method to it and there was no book and there was no video and there was no I'm in South Carolina in Myrtle Beach there was nobody to ask I didn't know anybody I could call up and ask when I was 15 14 years old trying to work that stuff out it just reaffirms to me that that there are a lot of different ways to do just about everything we do and I try to say and I want to thank you for that lesson that uh no need to go deep here but uh you're absolutely right uh you have been right and I want to say thank you to you personally because a lot of wonderful things uh are alert to me and I owe you so thank you thank you thanks for sharing it Steve you guys can keep going like I said there's no time limit on sharing and if you have questions or interacting with each other this is good stuff I have a question how'd they part the Red Sea and the Ten Commandments hey I I've got a question and it's for Mark man can you just um I don't even know how you met Jocko and and and all I know is that you were the guy for me on fretless bass and I knew it all came about through my another Miami Connection I believe because I saw you we went to uh Whit seidner's retirement uh party a few years ago and there's Mark Egan and I get all shaky and stuff like I did I'd get around Mark all the time anyway because he's such a huge uh uh uh inspiration to me but tell tell tell your your Jocko encounter and and then you know you took the the the uh to me the whole fretless the way to finish next and and dress snacks and pull Frets out I I came along later than that but I'd love to hear what anything you have to say Mark oh sure well it's been great listen to all you guys thank you for all these great stories and it's bringing Jocko alive you know um which is so um it's so special to to be in the presence of so many people that have been around Jocko but I was going to the University of Miami um in the early 70s and that's where I first met Jacob was around New York around that time around Miami around that time um before I met Jaco B I was listening to Stanley Clark like Avery had said similarly I was listening to all the bass players that played with Miles Davis and I was very much into the progressives music of miles and Coltrane and the lineage of jazz and you know is listening to everybody um from Scott before to Jimmy Blanton and Eddie Gomez and on and Dave Holland I was a really big fan of Dave Hollins at that time and anyway just to go a little bit forward I was playing with an Irish Sullivan's band and a group of Jodi Oreo Steve Bagby and Tony Castellano which is you know Cody oh my God yeah we're going to talk later yes later yeah and yeah I was you know I was going to school and I was playing seven nights a week not only with Ira a few nights a week but now I was playing on Miami Beach and I was hearing things about this bass player in Fort Lauderdale area Jocko and Ira had an electric band at the time and I was in his acoustic band because I was playing acoustic bass as well as electric bass um we Jocko and I both played in a band called baker's dozen and at this one rehearsal Ira wanted to bring Jocko into place on the Jocko's Arrangements on Domingo and I forget the other charts that he had but that was the first time I met Jaco and here that was what year I think it was like 72 73 74 in that around that area and Jocko so there were three bass players Don Mass was the upright player who played with Bakersfield I was playing electric at the time and then we were playing Ronnie Miller Arrangements where electric bass needed to be played and sometimes double bass and electric Bass but Ira wanted to have Jaco come so I had heard about Chaco from all different Avenues all areas I heard about choco when I would play um I was playing at the donville hotel we'd have one show a week that would come in and the bass player was Tommy strand in the upper hand was this funk group he was a singer and the bass player I forgotten his name but he was a really great bass player and I was checking him out backstage I said wow man where'd you get that and said well I listened to Jocko you know I just kept hearing things about chocolate I really want to meet him but we went to this rehearsal with baker's dozen and Jaco came in and played his charts and um blew me away and then they were doing some acoustic bass charts where Jaco and I went to the back of the auditorium at Miami Dade and Joker said you want you got to hear what I'm doing and he brought a real a Sony reel to reel two track that weighs a hundred pounds and we were in the back of the room with headphones on him you know how everybody knows when you put headphones on and you're talking you're not aware of it you talk very loud because you can't hear yourself so I I said this is unbelievable I can't believe this I I thought it sounded like and John McLaughlin was here earlier you know and I wish I could have told the story but I said it sounds like John McLaughlin and Vince DiMaggio stops the band because Jaco and I are carrying on back there and we got kicked out of the rehearsals but you know and I was listening to his music and it was amazing it was actually him with Wayne Cochran and the CC riders that was the music that he was playing with me so that was my first uh introduction to him and then around the same time he was playing with Iris Sullivan at a place called The Lion's Share which is a club in Fort Lauderdale with Alex Starkey and Bobby oconomo and Ira and so that was it was magical music it was he was like you said Steve it was like a meteorite that came and changed the face of bass you know I've been listening to Jameson and everyone and and Jocko just sucked everything from everyone and Amalgamated it into what he was as a musician I think from the influence of his father and listen to Frank Sinatra and the music that he heard growing up uh so you know that's how I met jaka was sort of in the early years and then fast forward a little bit to early 70s excuse me early around 77 the early group days and um I joined the Pat Metheny group with Danny and Lyle and we were on the road I was playing fretted bass with that band but I really I loved fretless even before I met Jocko a friend of mine a great guitar player Stan simoli was in Florida and he had a Fender precision without any fret markers on it and I used to play that bass and it sounded like a cello to me and I just like an electric cello I just loved playing that so it was because I came from upright base as well it the fretless had that quality but more like a cello quality to me um and then when we were playing with Pat Metheny Pat had got a base it was a 58 Precision that he got in Kansas City and he gave it to Jocko to take the Frets out and work on it and then Jocko gave it to me and we were playing at the Jazz Workshop in Boston which was a great jazz club there and um Jocko had sent it on an airplane on um I forget where the airlines it was but yeah I went to the airport during the break Danny and I got in a car I picked it up and there was a little note inside the base it was an anvil case and it said Mark enjoy the base you know Jocko this is such a great great thing and I played it on the first on the second set had not played the bass and it was the group just came alive you know it was uh it's what that band needed and I think you know I came into that group after Jocko had done the record bright size life with Pat so I wasn't I had to fill some heavy shoes in that band uh but at the same time I didn't want to sound like choco because Jaco had a very distinctive voice but everyone has a voice you know I everyone can find their way on it and I think for me and every what you said about just playing a fretless it sounds like Jocko and you're absolutely right if you just press down a note and play it it's a lot of people relate to that is you know it's because he had such a heavy identity was fretless but one of the things that especially with the Pat Metheny group that we were really supremely focused on was coming up with a different sound and and trying to make the band sound different and so I was really acutely aware of not sounding like Jocko but still making use of the beautiful richness of the instrument and that swelling tones and um fit it into the arrangements that Lyle and Pat did for the group so you know and that way I was influenced by Jocko and uh do you know what what year that was when you first took the fretless out uh 77 yeah because I I saw you in 78 um uh yes North Texas and and you were you it was incredible man we wanted to still one of the best shows I'd ever seen and I saw Jocko this later that year with weather report and and uh and man what a mind-blowing year for a kid freshman in college yes and you know Steve that gig that you saw we drove from Vermont to I think to den to North Texas straight played the gig then drove to San Francisco in the van not all non-stop we all took a tank of gas and we were opening up for Jean-Luc Ponte on the east coast and the West Coast but we drove there and back and so that gig we played in north Texas was on the way to playing out in San Francisco on it was so funny because um we played opening up for Jean-Luc Ponte and the guys would say oh what flight did you guys come in on I said no we didn't come in on a fight we drove and then we would get in the van that night and leave and try back again and so it was uh Ralph Armstrong was on that gig actually which sort of ties in was what John was saying and uh but you know Jocko just you know I've heard Jaco B I remember going to criteria studio in Miami and uh it would be like 74.75 and he was recording the demos for his solo record and I remember I was in recording with Clifford Carter and Highland Bullock and a drummer named Bill Bowker and I would put my ear to the door and I would hear Jocko playing a Balloon song they recorded this 12-tone piece of jockos and it was incredible music and it was such a heavy influence so it was hey Steve probably for you being around him you just got so much energy from him I was so inspired because I took some lessons with him when he taught one summer at the Youth of Miami uh he did an adjunct summer school thing for bass players and I took some lessons and I would practice for eight hours after seeing him I was just so charged up from his energy and his focus on it and he was completely straight he wasn't he was proud that he didn't drink or smoke or do anything you know he said I have a family I'm a family man and and so that's how I knew Jocko and not that he didn't have an ego I remember coming out to the front lobby of The Lion's Share and I said Jaco that was incredibly because I'm the baddest bass player in the world I said I'm the best no one's doing what I'm doing and he was that he was right I said you're absolutely right you're the greatest man I you know it's 100 not a dragon if it's true that yeah exactly you know I'm just in a different way but maybe I should have put Muhammad Ali behind me if you can back it up that's what Ali said yeah he can back it up he backed it up big time um so I didn't see Jocko that much from the Pat Metheny days because we were on the road 300 days a year for four years doing that but we did open up a show for weather report and that was the next time I saw him and uh it was a different Jocko you know he was dancing around the stage and when I knew Jaco I first saw him when he first played with weather report in New York and his feet were firmly planted on the floor and he was playing some he always played amazing but it was so focused and it was the Joker that I still knew from Florida but as Fame went on and I think whatever was going on with Chaco his his mental situation um he was changing and it was it was different but when he played it was still very very strong and it was such an honor to open up a weather report with Pat Matheny and we played at the Greek Theater in um San Francisco but um wow then you know to move fast forward a little bit I was playing in New York with the Gil Evans Orchestra and jocka would come in and sit in and play and we'd do both two bass players playing with that which was great because Joker was so Musical and you know like uh Jeff was playing you know he would play low I would play high we would double bass lines I'd just lay out sometimes and just let him go but I knew a lot of of Gill's arrangements and Jocko was more sitting in and a lot of the music wasn't written in Gil's book it was more I wouldn't say heads but it was more uh with more lead sheets with some of Guild's orchestrations built into them but as a result of that we went we did a tour of Japan with two bass players Jacob and myself and there was actually some videos of that um and I think it was good that I was here because Jocko was not that stable at the time even though he was we had a great time and everything but we I'll never forget we played it um yomi Yuri land which is a big it's like a Disneyland in Japan outside of Tokyo and we started to play we were playing the chicken and we doubled the Baseline on the chicken and you know played and then Jocko played and I would lay out and endless poem was playing drums and um all of a sudden Jocko walked off stage and then that's why Guild wanted me there because Jocko was would just go sometime so just leave the stage and go away so it's about 10 minutes and then all of a sudden I looked next to him and John comes over to me and he had rolled around in a mud puddle and he had a headband on and I just it didn't surprise me whatever but he just picked it up and we were playing you know doubling lines and everything and we were playing a really up-tempo uh C minor blues and we were just we were sort of out of doubling of what we were playing different lines and Joker just said that's when he gave me the name eeks he goes eggs it's you and me you know I just I cracked up but it was uh it was great and it was just great to be around him and his energy and you know he's as Steve said you know he was inside he was really a kind and gentle person and I I really related to a lot of that of Jocko um but there are some wild stories in that tour and uh that's the other show that's the other show late night TV yes oh God yeah we'll talk sometime because I have so many stories of that but it was it was really great and so you know I'm so influenced by Jacob but I've I was always weird to just come up with my own voice on the instrument and I think a lot of it for me is the fact that I was originally a trumpet player and I had to really develop a sound on Trump but I went to the university as a trumpet player and I played in the in the first jazz band I played Jazz the second trumpet show I played jazz trumpet so you know I was really aware of sound and I was listening to Miles and uh Clifford Brown all the trumpet players and I was transcribing solos and at the same time I got into base and I brought my base with me and I I just changed it over but Jocko just really gave me a shot in the arm you know with developing the base and taking it to another place but uh thank you it's an honor I don't you know this is a long interview but I just want to say uh thanks to all you guys here who have all been influences on me you know well well Mark thanks I mean you definitely you know got you you know you you developed your own sound I mean without without question and now and you're a better man than me in terms of fretless because I you know I was like I said every time I I just heard Jocko and I was like okay that's it but you were able to to really come up with your own sound like you said where when I heard you I was like oh okay yeah he's playing fretless but it's cool it's it's him you know I don't I don't hear a joke I hear I hear Mark you know that's really cool thank you hey Mark man we need we need to talk about uh on on another maybe a South Florida version but IRA and and Tony and you and then you mentioned Vince Maggio and that about flipped me out to all the I I came along maybe 10 years later or eight seven or eight years later but what a what an influence all those guys had on me too it's been something in the water down there hey check check this out um this is from I think from Nice France in 83 but it it's Jocko and Del Mar and standing beside me who we jammed with is Jimmy Smith whoa oh snap and and there's there's a story in there in that in that um uh we went to a jam session afterwards Tommy Campbell was playing drums and and this is a statement of Jocko's uh uh fortitude I guess his strength in that um I was already playing Jimmy Smith was playing piano there was no organ there and went in Marcellus and paquito de Rivera who I was working with at the time they were in the front you know playing heads Tommy Campbell and and I'm playing my Stuart Spector four-string fretless and in in comes Jocko the whole uh that everything changed when he would walk in into a room and uh and nobody had to ask him to sit in basically he came over to me it was almost like the Duffy Jackson story but but it's like there was only one input and or one only one he didn't have a base with him and he grabbed my base and uh and I said man knock yourself out and if you can ever imagine like my base he was used to a base a fender base with the dots in between the Frets because it's a fretted base and and the Fret lines filled in and this was a specter with no fret lines and the dots were in a different place they were on the Fret the the fert1357 uh and and working up but Jocko did not care uh otherwise he picked it up and he started playing um just just about a quarter step sharp um the whole thing and and you would like I remember went and you know what trumpet players they'll go like that and they'll just kind of look back but they still got the horn in their mouth that's what went and went and did but here's the deal Jocko played it with such conviction this is what I learned from him one thing I learned was well I taken the positive out of this is that he played it with such conviction that I swear I still hear it in my head he made everybody else sound like you're thinking man I'm Jimmy Smith why is his piano Out Of Tune you know why is Poquito Out Of Tune why is everybody he just made the rest of the band sound Out Of Tune because he was so committed to what he and and uh I'll never forget it you know it was it was I've asked Tommy about that and and uh and and all everybody who's still alive if they remember that of course they do and uh it's just another statement of his his conviction can I show you guys something I did this a few days ago this is a Winton transcription uh Steve you may dig in this because you're in a transcribing stuff but check this out I don't know if you can see it but I'm still writing out the melodic guys just because they show me stuff that I don't know and you guys were talking about went in a bit so if I just had this in front of me because that's sort of what I practiced now this transcription of Wynton Marsalis hmm wow interesting hey Mark I Mark I just wanted to say I was with Pat Uh Pat Metheny on Monday and we talked about you his eyes just lit up I told him about the show that we were going to be doing he says oh man I'm not going to be able to do it you know because he tore so much but he's probably going to be on the uh the show next month I'm going to interview him but uh he just lit up when I mentioned your name oh nice great that's nice excellent well guys I've got to please say hello I gotta Jump On In in six minutes but good to see everybody yeah I gotta jump too guys thank you so much thank you I appreciate all of you for being here today you guys made a great show and I'm gonna make this uh course available to all of you guys I'm gonna edit it and uh got all of your information so I'll send it to you guys awesome sounds great great guys so great to see you all yeah thanks cheers bye-bye bye elements all right take care I'm going to close out the show now well I just want to thank all of my guests for being on today Mark Egan Steve Bailey uh all of you guys uh Avery sharp it's just been a pleasure Alex Acuna John McLaughlin and as the saying goes if the music grooves and makes you move it must be Jazz I'm Preston Williams with jazz talk signing off peace

Channel: Jazz Talk

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Id: pQS-GoJ0wjY

Length: 108min 25sec (6505 seconds)

Published: Sun Sep 25 2022