- So if you guys are
wondering why we started on the floor with this
bird, this African gray, it was because first thing, unexpectedly, this gray flew to the ground, and we thought, "Oh!
Birds are more likely to step up from the floor anyway, let's just work with what we've got" and then you kind of
notice that this footage is sort of like spliced together, and a lot of the training
sessions were unplanned, because we'd be working with another bird in the master class,
and then suddenly Ruby would fly and do something
to demand our attention, and we would end up working with her. And so that's why it seems, and it is, so random, is we, our
master class is around four hours long, and we just kind of take
turns working with each bird. And we were constantly making jokes that Ruby wanted to be worked with and she was the only bird that wanted to be worked with because she was always demanding all the attention. So, just to preface why you're gonna see first thing this bird on
the floor, that's why. - Hey everyone, meet Ruby she's a Congo African
Gray that's 4 years old, and her main problem or struggle is that she has a fear of stepping up because when she was young going through the fledging age she was clipped and so she fell a lot,
which resulted in pain. And she wasn't able to trust her own wings or her own body to save
herself from falling or people. And so she developed this
fear of standing on hands or stepping up at all. So she won't do it from any surface, not from the ground, a
perch, her cage, nowhere. So Sean's actually had a consultation with us before via Facetime, and we've gone over this and she was only stepping up with one foot, as far as putting that one foot on his hand, so we taught him to train with the other foot and now she will place
either foot on his hand, but as you can see, she'll
do the splits before she actually steps up with both feet. So that is our main struggle today with what we're trying
to overcome with Ruby. So, enjoy the video. - Oh.
- Good, okay. Good job. It's okay.
- That was perfect. - [Dave] The bird got a treat the instant the second foot came up off the ground, he gave it a treat, let the bird go back. That was a perfect example
of how he was able to not blow out this bird's trust. If, however, he picked the bird up, was like, "Woo! We got it!" (laughing) You guys haven't seen how phobic this bird is of stepping up, so that was a huge step and
it was beautifully done. - [Dave] What do you guys see from the body language now with the Gray? - [Jamie] Can I answer, or no? - [Dave] Can't see it? - [Jamie] Can I answer, or no? - [Dave] Yeah, you can answer Jamie. - [Jamie] Content. - [Dave] Yes.The bird's content. So, if I apply a little bit of pressure, this bird doesn't know me, it might become a little less content. - [Jamie] You guys all see the feathers? - [Dave] Okay now look,
she's going towards Shawn. - [Jamie] We're gonna offer, Shawn. - Okay. It's going to offer. Okay. So, we're getting closer. And if you guys can't see this, try to position yourself so you can. - [Jamie] See if without
moving your hand she'll go any further. Come on, buddy, really. (laughs) - Okay, so there, the
base of the foot came up, all the toenails were still touching but the entire foot came
up, if that makes sense. I mean, we're dealing with
little tiny wins here. And if I move any more this way I'm gonna roll in poop. I'm like holding my breath. - [Jamie] Literally! - Geez. - [Shawn] Aw, man. - Okay so let's just
take a break for a sec. She's willingly putting up one foot, but will not- when it's on a perch, she's got a death grip,
into full-on splits, won't let go of the perch, so here even on the floor, that's a better opportunity, coz she doesn't have the grip. What Shawn's doing excellent is he's making sure not to just go for it. We may get to a point today
where we wanna just go for it, but right now, this
bird really trusts that it's okay to take it one
little step at a time. We're dealing with so much fear from what we assumed was a clipped bird falling
and just getting hurt. It's was struggling to get past that, but, there was a lot of little tiny wins there. So if I was to create a
little bit of discomfort here, we may be able to get another repetition that may be better. Him leaving would fall under the category of minus punishment. It's not a bad thing, but what it does is it will increase the value of him as a treat later. If we were to use minus
punishment on purpose, we always wanna follow it up with plus reinforcement of treats. Just gonna see if there's- oh! Ah, (bleep). Too much pressure. (bleep). (laughing) - [Dave] What would a typical training session look like for it? - Take her out, I'll work
on some flight with her, to and from her cage to her stand, we'll do the target training, and, usually, then I'll kinda work on her stepping up. Because she was already
comfortable using her right foot, put it on my hand, I've been working more with the other foot to
get to that comfort level. Yeah, it definitely improved, so I just need to put the pieces together, you know? - So, what I might see here is that because you've done such
a good job training, I'm trying to relate back to, I don't know the right words for it. We worked in the Amazon, with the lady in Pittsburgh? - [Jamie] Which one? - The one that came in last. - [Jamie] Oh, yeah yeah yeah. - The last one of the class. And she had a similar issue, about, her bird wouldn't step up, because she had trained so well with just I think it was just one
foot as well, right? - [Jamie] Yeah, it was
just putting the one foot on his- on her hand. - And so the trick became
- She thought that was a trick. - One foot on the hand. Now, it stemmed with this one from fear, but this may be a chance where we want to push a little bit harder.
- Okay. What may happen is you might have a really big breakthrough with that today. If she does step up. - [Shawn] Okay. - Click, reward, and immediately let her go back to the perch. So we don't- and I mean, have her on your hand for one second, and put her back. Even if she goes back to the perch to get the treat, that's okay. That was a
big win if we do get that. So if at any point you feel like you could push through a little harder, coz I felt it here, you
were like right there. If you would have lifted I
think you might have got it. - [Shawn] Okay. I know
you covered that before, you said, you know, I felt I kind of baby her a little much? And with my training sessions
after that, I did push and she responded pretty
well to it pretty quickly. I think that might be- - [Jamie] You're really in tune to her, she trusts you. You read everything. And you're really
respectful of what you read. - [Dave] So, that's more reason why the whole topic of maybe
pushing a little harder is happening is because I trust you know what your limit is, right? So, even though we're
giving directions for this, if at any point, you feel like it's gonna backpedal, then don't do it. Ultimately, it's up to you knowing what's best for your bird. But I do think that we are gonna have an opportunity to push and get value.
- The relationship has room. - Yeah. So, this is kind
of what we talked about in our family-friendly video too, where there's a birdie bank account. Every bird, you put in
deposits in their account with good relationships,
good trust, good training, and that's what's happening. This bird is not afraid of things, obviously she trusts you, and so because that bank account is full, you may afford a quick withdrawal. If you have to towel
her put her in a cage, the rest of the
relationship's been so great that that's not gonna cause the bird to mistrust you forever. Right? So if we have to push, push a tiny bit harder
than you normally would, and again, I say that
with understanding that that may change in a moment
where I can't call it. You have to make that decision. So let's see if in two
to five inspections, you can get her in a routine or get her to potentially try to step up. (clicking noise) - [Dave] Oh, oh, oh, oh. (clicking noise) You guys see that? The foot came up a couple of times. - [Jamie] I can't even begin to describe how long we worked with this bird. Okay. We worked with it for four hours, in between other birds. This took so long that I have sped up this footage for you guys. What I'm doing this time is our attempt on the floor, is I've
created kind of this wall that I know that she is not upset with, she's still a pretty
content bird on the floor, she has nothing to really be scared of, she's not scared of me, but she's also not going to step onto me or initiate interaction with me. I'm pretty much neutral. So, I'm trying to make it so that Shawn is more appealing
for her to step onto, but what ends up happening is she's just kinda getting irritated with him. And we don't wanna make him less, so we eventually back off, and just allow her to choose to end this whole interaction and session by giving her a way out. Shawn's kinda blocking her other way, hoping that she'll take the way out by stepping up onto him, and when he backs off, you can see that she just takes that way and she's like, "Nope! I'm done. I'd rather
not hang out with you humans." She does wanna interact with Shawn, but this bird will just not step up, no matter what we do. He tries to kinda lift and scoot and try all sorts of things, and
she's just not having it. And he struggles and
struggles and struggles. He's trying to make it so that if she steps up all the way onto his hand, she can reach that treat, even scooting's not working. We're trying to explain
how to use momentum and just lift right up,
because you can tell that she really trusts him, but it's a hard concept to explain. (laughs) Well, (bleep). (laughs) - [Dave] She's like, "That's all I have to do to you, bud!" - [Jamie] Slide! (laughing) - [Dave] All right, let's, let's, uh... do you want to try one more time with her? - [Shawn] Yeah I'll give it one more. - [Jamie] He is so close. - [Dave] Okay. She's really
excited about it, though. - Hell yes. That isn't so bad. Slide it up. Slide it up. It's okay. Just give her the worm. Bring her perch over here? - And when you get close to it
slowly, she shouldn't spook. Perfect. - [Jamie] I'm gonna try to explain what you guys just saw. So, she ended up on the curtain, I "rescued" her. I say that in quotations. I made it easy for her to get out of the predicament she was
in by stepping onto me. However, you can see she's
not comfortable on me, so I ask Shawn to bring her perch over because that's gonna be her
reinforcement for coming to me. So, as soon as it's in sight, she is onto that thing,
and that is her reward. The crazy thing is after
that flight we thought, okay, she's gonna wanna
just chill on the perch, and hang out, and come down from it, but no, she flew again, ended
up on the curtain again, so we encouraged Shawn to be the one to save her this time. And so he did. And she was way more content on Shawn, so we encouraged him to keep her there, by giving her treats constantly, and then we told him to
slow down with the treats, and only reward when she looked like she was calm, and not paying attention to the fact that she
was in this predicament that she was a little
bit uncomfortable with. We were super happy about it. Shawn was super happy about it. But we finally wanted to slow down and see how content we could get her to be on him, and receive a treat at the same time. - That's pretty chill right there. Okay. So same thing, we're
gonna wait for that again. - [Jamie] Does she know that head shake? - Um, dance. Dance! How weak! - [Jamie] I saw it, I was like... - Ruby, dance. - All right, put her on the perch, and you don't need a treat on the perch because that's already really rewarding. (bird screeches)
Awesome. - [Jamie] Yay, Shawn! (Shawn laughs) Look, we're trying to train
with other birds, okay? (laughs) - So yeah, have a seat, that was-- - [Jamie] Yeah, that was good. - This is probably where we say every interaction is a training session. You're gonna increase the
chance of good behavior or decrease the chance of good behavior, since that's behavior we wanted. The reason that we want
the food motivation, we don't want you to have- we don't want you to take the bird out unless there's the right motivation level. Because you might have a
breakthrough opportunity like that, where that
would have been wasted if the bird was full. Right? There would have been
very little reinforcement because the value of the treat, over, get away from a hand,
there's no comparison. But if the bird has the
right motivation level, or the training level four
I think we'd refer to it as, then that was pretty reinforcing, to get the treat, and
you saw that once we've had that breakthrough, he didn't walk around with the bird, we sat there until we got calm, and then we started reinforcing calm, and then misdirection, by
"Hey, you're on my hand, but I'm cueing you another trick, and a treat, so that becomes, you're combining all these
familiar things with the bird, and pairing it with being on your hand. Seeing that now, if you
get another step up, do the same thing. Maybe not
as many treats the next time, because that, that needed that many, but the next time, do it, a little bit less of a jackpot, and then start cueing other behaviors that she can do from your hand, so that- - [Jamie] And extending
the length of the time. - No longer thinking about,
"Oh crap, I'm on your hand", she's like, "What else?
You want me to do this? You want me to do this?"
And you can see how all of a sudden she got more comfortable when you asked her for things. And then, yeah, as Jamie
said, you wanna extend the amount of time she'll be in your hand. - Oh!
(clicking noise) So, you established that
she's gonna step forward. Once she does, see what happens if you push towards her with her foot, while you're still gently holding it. - [Shawn] Okay. (clicking noise) (whispering) Like that. (laughs) - (laughing) He tried to hold it on! - (laughing) I can't..! - [Dave] That's what we call,
"premature clicking". (laughs) - I'm like seeing it on my head, and then you do that. Oh, man. - [Dave] So, an observation. While you're holding the treat, had you continued to hold the treat, which ends up, when she grabs it, you're holding her beak a little bit too, use that as a third hand
to help lift her up. - [Shawn] Okay. I think if you would have
done it in that repetition you would have had it. - [Shawn] Okay. - [Dave] Yeah, and push in and lift. So, rather than just pushing straight in, try to push and scoop up. - Okay. - [Dave] She's really receptive, so, that's why we're pushing how we are. - Okay. - [Dave] Put that in... (clicking noise) - So, are you going for
the same timing of the-- - [Dave] Yeah. - You're going for the scoop. Okay. - You wanna coordinate it with, like all one motion?
- We need, yeah we need, yeah. - [Dave] Yeah. So as-- - Huh? - [Dave] It's a powder pouf. (clicking noise) It don't feel like you're- Actually, give me the clicker. - Okay. (everyone laughs) - [Dave] You're fired. (everyone laughs harder) - [Dave] I just wanna do it. - I know you do.
- I know I could get it, but-- - I know. You can't though,
coz she doesn't like you. - [Dave] (chuckling) Story of my life. - Okay, so, right there,
we lost a little trust. - Okay. - Trigger something, cue
something that you know she's good at and can do easily. - Okay. Dance. Dance! All right. - [Dave] Just regain the trust, change her mind from like, she knows what you're
trying to do now, I think. (laughs) - Why don't you ask her
to do some easy stuff. - [Jamie] So of course,
because we take a break, we pay attention to other birds, Ruby decided to fly at some point. So, she lands in this windowsill area, and Shawn is able to go over, offer his hand, and she steps up great. So we are finally finding
really really really extremely uncomfortable
places that she ends up, where she is actually willing
to step up onto his hand. So again, we give treats, we encourage her to stay there longer, we wait for calm, now
she looks totally cool, calm and collected on him. We're kinda laughing about the fact that this is the only way
this bird will step up. We try to work on this
flat countertop, but she's really uninterested,
and even with all the bribes, she's like "Nope! No thanks." And while Shawn is trying to
walk her back to her perch, she ends up flying onto the floor again. So this is a hard concept to explain. What I'm trying to get Shawn to do is to place his hand in a spot where she will step up onto it to get out of the situation that she is in. So, she will find his hand as the most convenient place to go, and will choose to do it. So, here we end up kinda working together, I'm trying to explain and encourage, and we end up each with a foot, so I pass my foot off to Shawn the rest of the way, and she's a little bit like, "What just happened?" Takes her treat, drops it,
gets startled and takes off, and literally ends up right
back at the same spot. - There have been times,
like if she's out, let's say I go out of the room or somewhere else, she'll
fly off, come and find me. She just-- (laughs) - She's like "Well, now
that you're here..." - Yeah! (laughs) - All right, you ready? - Yeah. - Okay while you're doing offers
like this, almost hold her. Put your arms next (backround
noise drowns him out) left or right, and then push
on to it when she seems ready. (clicking noise) - Oh yeah. I went under his hand, so when she reached that one foot for me, you got it. - Oh okay, so go to do that again? - Coz it's been me transferring
that other foot to you. - Jamie, just do the same thing, offer your hand, both sides. There you go. - Do you have one? - Yep. - Nice, all right. Trying to keep it calm. (clicking noise) (loud bang) - [Woman Off Screen] I'm sorry! - She's desensitized, it's fine. She's just chill about everything else. It's just a hand! Should we give her a treat?
Should we take a moment? - I think we might be done. - Oof! - Yeah, we'll have to pick her up anyway to get her put back. So let's go and do it one more, then we'll give her jackpot in the cage. - Looks like she wanted more
pets from you, actually, that time.
- Yeah she doesn't like getting head scratches, so. I see you holding her wings, almost, babe, made a big difference. - Okay. Looks like a very chill chicken. Like, pigeon. (clicking noise) - See how much quicker that was? - [Woman Off Screen] I
can't believe you did it. - All right, guys. So just go slowly, move her back in the cage. - [Shawn] All right. - One of my favorite things
about the master classes is when people email us, or
get in contact with us somehow, and give us a follow-up or an update on how their bird's doing from
the last time that we saw it. Shawn was one of those
people that immediately updated us, and sent
us the following email. It says: "Hi. I just
wanted to give an update with Ruby's progress.
She finally got it and has learned to step up. Ironically enough, the same foot she never wanted to move is
the one she now gives first. I applied what Dave advised in regards to moving my hand up and in as she reached up for the treat while on her perch. After a few repetitions, she
now actually steps forward and up onto my hand. I seriously cannot thank you both enough. Without your expertise and insight, I'm not sure I would
have figured this out. You're the best. Thank you, Shawn." So, Shawn, thank you for actually
applying the information. It is so exciting to see
that kind of progress. And Shawn was nice enough
to send some video to accompany this letter and I'm so excited to share it with you guys. After everything that
you saw in this video, all the confusion and
probably questions you had of "What the heck were these people doing? What were they trying to accomplish?" And I have to say, it's
probably the first master class that Dave and I struggled, with knowing something really well, being able to do it ourselves, but having a very hard
time conveying the method, and teaching somebody
else how to apply it. So, this was a challenge for us. Thank you, Shawn, and it
was very entertaining. Check out this footage. - Good girl. (clicking noise) (clicking noise) (clicking noise) Good
girl. (clicking noise)
