Itachi VS Pain | The Greatest Fight in Naruto

hello everyone it's your host it's at the programmer I actually had to redo this recording because I was recording with my PlayStation headset at first did you realize so Itachi versus Payne it's one of the most generic matchups in all of Naruto we did this as we checked in the last recording five years ago maybe six it might have been even more yeah yeah and obviously you know we've grown since then the way people perceive the series much different since back then so it's just time for a redo and there's a lot of interesting things we want to go over as well even just surrounding the topic not even it itself before we start the video I would like to mention today's sponsor which you can use in real life by the way and that is displayed most of us like our room to look nice and clean by styling our walls one of the best items you could use to add some style to your room or maybe your office is displaced now what is a display a display is a high quality one-of-a-kind metal poster 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entity around him as well as you know tsukuyomi the ability to control like all like time space in the you know the mental world and then he has Yama tarasu which is like the strongest attack on the physical world they're all named after deities and he also has the toteska blade which can Pierce anything and the yada mirror which can deflect anything and these are all described as Divine level Shinobi attributes and abilities and then pain on the other hand his whole thing is being Divine and even the way that they describe him is almost like some mythological Pokemon or something like he's not even like a normal human being you know like his eyes are named after samsara you know Swag was saying this in the last recording but every single one of the pads of pain is named after you know a certain cycle of samsara in the six cycles and all his abilities are sort of messing with reality he surpasses the concepts of just life and death entirely which is like the hugest thing in Naruto you know you have orochimar becoming a bad guy over death and then kakazu sassori and all these characters trying to become immortal and then he Don trying to become immortal or those guys trying to make him Immortal to get Beyond Death you have you know even the otsutsuki later in the series they make Karma to get past life and death and then you have pain here whose eyes are just beyond the concept he can just manipulate he can revive people over and over again and he seems to just have a whole different Divine level of abilities that no one else really does he he's also called like the child of Prophecy too by jariah before he uh meets Minato Jiraiya thought that this kid was like the chosen one of the whole Naruto world right and Itachi does kind of have like a he has a little bit of a chosen one thing it's mainly the novels where he's known as the Shinobi of chaos which is like that's why he has the lines on his face at least in the novels and it's basically a Shinobi that's born like once every 100 or so years that will have a huge change on the world so he's kind of like a chosen one as well maybe not as literal as like the sage toad or something it might have just been danzo you know gassing him up even but you know you kind of have a similar case that both possibly chosen chosen ones that will change the world both Divine Shinobi both are like Beyond signing level Fighters you know Itachi is constantly manhandling and bull bullying Orochimaru pain bully jariah and then they have to fight him after their mentors are defeated you know at the end so they're clearly supposed to be a similar level at least you know in terms of the story now whether they're actually the same strength well that's why this whole video right is gonna be kind of about so I guess where do you think we should start off yeah that's a really good question because people have been asking who would win this fight for a really long time pretty much since like wait wait before the series ended people want to know who would win Hitachi or pain like like even while the Naruto fight was ongoing people were yeah yeah this question definitely so I mean it it's like there are a whole lot of aspects here like a whole lot of aspects of the fight to talk about here I think that like with something like this it's a lot less clear-cut than like a lot of fights because Itachi and pain have such vast arsenals lots of interpretations too yeah they have their their many many different interpretations of their strength that we both think are valid that come from from statements about their abilities in non-biased sources like the data books statements from characters in the series and these statements can all be interpreted different ways like it's there's a lot to go over right yeah definitely probably the best place to start would be their opponents so pain does have a more impressive lineup of people he fights before like candy Tachi are revived I would say so it's easier to get a good grip on how strong he's supposed to be just using his fight against Sage Naruto I think everybody agrees that Sage Naruto is massively more powerful than Sasuke was around this point in the series Obito even says so after Sasuke awakens the mangekyo Sharingan that Sage Naruto is substantially more powerful than him like going into the five kage Summit right so at this point Sasuke should be able to use the susano he has a matarasu and kagasuchi and Obito just thinks him fighting Naruto would be totally hopeless like the leaf Village is off limits he needs to get stronger and Payne fought this person he also fought jaraya whereas Hitachi does fight arochimaru and beats him like really bad I guess like in his own like pseudo Sage Mode form if you want to call it that it's kind of it's kind of weird he turns into like a sage snake but it's not sage mode yeah so it's complicated but yeah yeah and he fights Kakashi and Sasuke so pain again like I said has more impressive opponents though one thing that Seth and I wanted to talk about is Sasuke we've been talking about this for various reasons over the past few days and we actually think that Sasuke is a lot more impressive than people give him credit for in early shipping and it's the reason for this right and I really wanted to hammer this home I almost want to just make a Sasuke video at one point but I can go over here too it's just like you know when he destroys team seven when they've meet him after the bridge Tsunade tells Sakura that Sasuke is so powerful he has to be on roids so he's like not Natty or he's using forbidden Jutsu to amplify his stats like that's the only way he could be that strong now Naruto before he meets Sasuke here is fatigued to the point he's like falling over he also fights Orochimaru twice a lot of people don't know that he actually fights Orochimaru again after four tails before meeting Sasuke and Orochimaru actually spares him so he has to fight while so fatigue he's falling over again against hiroshimaru so when he does fight Sasuke he's nowhere near full power right and Sakura she does get like a concussion she gets basically one tapped with a collateral from Kabuto's body like flying into her not to mention it is Sasuke who she's fighting so she's probably just like holding back subconsciously right like a lot but even with that information you know you still see the characters think he would do that anyway and the reason I say that is because Tsunade and probably Yamato and maybe Sai probably all tell you know their mission report after it's over and they probably tell Tsunade what happened and then Tsunade came to the conclusion unlike his peers he has to be unnatural he has to be on roids you know and his peers Naruto Sakura and Sai even Sai would be able to do this he had to remember Sai is actually relative to like base Naruto and Sakura probably but is that Sakura is able to actually fight an Akatsuki member named Sasori I've talked about this before uh I am one of the the biggest saucery hype beasts in the whole world so you can take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt but I think that saucery is so we'll talk more about data or later but Daedra seems to think that sasseri's stronger than him and dater is monstrous again we'll get into Data or later so just put a pin in that but saucery has like instant kill poison can control 100 puppets at the same time has the third kazakage puppet has the hiroko puppet that was able to completely decimate conqueror who's a jonian by the way we can actually start there because conquero is just concretely blatantly joning level he and tamari are uh it's him tamari and Neji who are joning at the start of shipping right yeah so sorcery in like his first the first phase of his boss fight just slams conqueror it's not close at all he doesn't get popped out of the hiruko shell so it's already established that he's massively above like joanine level and the big thing that I wanted to mention here is statement that I caught the other day when looking at the data books what it says specifically is he set his sights on the third kazakage who was called or hailed as something along those lines the strongest Shinobi so this statement is a little bit iffy but it's not inconsistent if we interpret it in the way that's the most charitable to sasri so hailed as the strongest Shinobi would imply that other people saw the third Kanza kage and thought this is the strongest ninja in the whole world right now if the data book had said flat out that he was the strongest Shinobi this would be a dismissable statement because it would be contradicted by the fact that pain was alive at this point in time and I mean that would be it right like obviously sorcery is not stronger than pain and sorcery killed third kazakage you would either be able to dismiss the feet by saying the toastery poison him or something or say that this statement just doesn't make any sense but the idea that he was hailed as the strongest Shinobi means that people who didn't know about characters like pain or Itachi who were kind of operating in the shadows I mean Draya didn't even know about the Civil War that was going on in the hidden rainbow didn't even know about Amaterasu you know and he's an Intel man so yeah yeah exactly like he had like rats in the Akatsuki apparently didn't even know about a matarasu didn't know about the Civil War going on in the hidden Reign didn't know that Hanzo died until he got in the hidden Reign and interrogated one of the Ninja there so it's totally reasonable to assume that people just wouldn't know about pain which means that the next point of comparison would be heroes in so the third Kanza kage if we take this statement super seriously could have been stronger than hiruzen about 10 years or so before Shippuden and what's important about this is that here is an explicitly says like very very explicitly says if I was 10 years younger I'd be able to beat you now to a Orochimaru when he's using the reaper death seal trying to pull out his soul Orochimaru says it himself he's like you know if you're 10 years younger you would beat me so yeah yeah it's Orochimaru who says it not here isn't this right yeah yeah if we're to take this seriously this would pretty firmly play sasury Above Orochimaru Sakura wasn't able to beat him by herself she was being assisted by Chio and sasuri was holding back but again like she's able to do better against sasuri than she is against the base yeah start of shipping inside yeah right and you know sasuri he is very strong even like that that is sort of like more of the higher end way you could scale accessory like you know there's and with a lot of Naruto characters there's a lot of things you can do like that for sure you know I mean I've seen people debate data versus hashirama you know like uh you know but uh like it's definitely a higher Ball but even without that you know SAS history is still incredibly powerful so incredibly powerful you know akotsky member as well as the fact he should be able to hunt down jinchurkey he's above you know kage level pretty blatantly stronger than the third kazakage or could take him down and he was like hey don't underestimate Gara and he never thought he couldn't take down Gara so implying he's also at least a kage level opponent while Chio also thought that he killed the fourth kazakage gar's dad was awesome uh he had the corrector he was like oh no that wasn't me that was rochimaru the other two those were me though yeah and rasa you know he's brawling shukaku all the time you know this gold release in third and sassori are apparently stronger than him but you know where I was kind of getting with that is it it then depends like do you think you know sassori is going all out and you know and it's like you you would say so right because he's like he's monologuing you know in his head I'm gonna kill him wow that was impressive she could actually Dodge that you know and the data books like the data books crediting Sakura dodging it due to like tsunami body training right but the other way you can kind of interpret it is maybe there's like a little bit of subconscious suppression from sasury but sasury also still thinks that it might be possible that Sakura and them are powerful enough to take down Orochimaru yeah that's another thing that kind of supports him being above Orochimaru he thinks that them being able to fight him means that they'd be able to go to tenchy Bridge and kill Kabuto and Orochimaru so another way you can maybe look at it is based on what the Akatsuki knew of Orochimaru you know a long time ago and then based on what Itachi's told them which is probably accurate by the way and many other characters know about him like Kisame Kisame literally power scales himself below Orochimaru by the way is that maybe you know sassori thought or he was stronger than Orochimaru like a long time ago you know what I mean yeah and so maybe like the current sawning you know are stronger than them but you know back in the day you know sassori would have been able to beat them or something if he was as strong as he is now that was just like eight different ways he could scale Sasori so you guys can kind of see where we're going yeah yeah that's why this fight is so complicated now imagine Payne versus Hitachi right but what we're getting with that is if you scale it charitably for Sasuke Sasuke is roided out compared to Sakura who could avoid this like old school sauntings level you know attacks and even the databa kind of supports you know like I don't like dad's dad but it does give sassori a 34.5 which is pretty high and it says he could output more power with this puppet and the Sony R35 you know so it's like it wouldn't be contradictory really but it'd be crazy but still you know Sasuke in base form is roided out I don't know if Tsunade or Yamato or Sakura because I'm sure Naruto didn't talk to Tsunade about any of it I don't even know if she knows about Curse Mark II either like if she knows like the full scope of what it might be able to do maybe she heard it from say like Shikamaru when they're on the retrieval but they might not actually know the full scope of Sasuke's you know in comparison which is even stronger so their assessment of him being like steroid level might actually be a low ball as well and then you have crazy Data Book statements like he is the strong he's stronger than any Akatsuki member you know it's like that's a that's a crazy statement but the way I interpreted that as possibly consistent this is once again inter station one way or another is you know maybe like if Sasuke Curse Mark II threw a fireball Jutsu and he you know Itachi or Obito tried to throw their own you know the curse mark two Sasuke's would be stronger or something not necessarily that he has stronger Jutsu like he's not stronger than Amaterasu or you know he wouldn't be able to necessarily beat Obito and speed or whatever maybe the Kirin is even stronger than anything but you know it kind of depends on a few factors but then you then have you know him fight data and what was it it was sweet gutsu is like why did you struggle with data like didn't you beat Orochimaru and then we kind of get into this weird territory where like Orochimaru kind of gets like a beerus treatment where he gets kind of upscaled but it gets crazy and I'm gonna what me and swag will tell you why this like beerus Orochimaru stuff gets really crazy because it keeps going it's it's unbelievable yeah yeah and so he he fights data or whatever and then he fights you know Itachi after that and it's like why are you fighting Itachi now like it did the Orochimaru absorption amp them that much because you know at the start of Shippuden he's like you know to be honest me and Orochimaru are not strong enough to fight Itachi but now he's doing it alone so it's like does he think he's stronger than Orochimaru or them put together and swag brought up a decent point maybe he thought he'd have to take on Kisame and Orochimaru at the same time so maybe they thought they'd lose like a 2v2 or something or you know it'd be like a 2V1 and then he's like ah now that you know Kisame is not involved 1v1 I might be able to do it which you know whatever but then the five kage Summit comes around after a killer bee and you know they say sage Naruto is way stronger than Sasuke you know and it's like it's like okay so now it started like Sasuke scaling it's like a little bit weird and then after he fights Sage Kabuto this we just found this before the video this statement is so crazy okay Sasuke says we've just now surpassed our mentor okay right and he's obviously talking about Orochimaru and then when they get Orochimaru out of anko's curse mark Orochimaru says he's not interested in the war Justin stealing Sasuke's body and so he gets who's like see man I told you we shouldn't have let Orochimaru out and then Orochimaru says well I don't think I'm strong enough to steal Sasuke's body anyway and suigetsu thinks to himself I wonder about that like yeah yeah yeah yeah and it's kind of it's It's kind of nuts and you have to remember Orochimaru and Jiraiya are equals in part one and part one is orochimaru's actual Prime so like yeah now now Orochimaru does get stronger in the like War Arc I guess but this is kind of based on sweet gutsu's memories and this is this is actually before Orochimaru gets his arm powers back as well so part one orochimaro is stronger who's relative to jariah and then you have pain gets hit by a smoke bomb from sage jariah and while not looking you know he does the whole thing where he like blocks Jarius punch but have you guys ever actually thought about that pain while not even looking caught his punch and it's like okay yeah yeah maybe he's like he has the reaction because another pain is helping him see that but do you guys understand what that actually means to just catch a sage mode Punch remember this guy is now stronger than Orochimaru in part one unless Orochimaru is also probably in his equivocal Hydra Form or something like that he just catches it he just caught it without flinching one arm then you see Sage Naruto kick a way stronger pain tendo pain with more nagato you know concentration pain while blocking it bracing with his whole body gets sent launched across the crater while fully on guard facing him so now Sage Naruto in pain just seemed like a totally different level than like Sasuke Orochimaru and all those guys right right so now it's like you'd think okay well now pain is way stronger than Hitachi like there's just absolutely no way because based on hitachi's Feats you know he fights this like kind of inferior Sasuke almost and these sage mode characters maybe shukaku was right like maybe no one really could get involved in that battle you know what I mean like maybe stage Naruto really was that crazy then it kind of gets into some different territory where you kind of have to think about it like do you really think you know Sasuke would not be able to handle kakazoo like Kakashi did or handle you know pain in a similar way that Kakashi could you know what I mean and then we kind of get into that territory where it seems as though even though Sage Naruto is probably a lot stronger that Sasuke is still at the level where he could still fight the pains you know what I mean yeah so we could talk about that for a second here like it like let really think about it for a second right so Kakashi fights tendo pain and the Asura pain later shows up and he does pretty well he actually almost destroys tendo albeit with some help from choji and choza Sasuke is way stronger than Kakashi like this is just a fact maybe in bass yeah yeah possibly in bass well because Yamato and Kakashi are supposed to be like sort of relative and Yamato is just getting dismissed by base pre-absorption Sasuke and Naruto does you know he thinks about that yeah yeah he thinks about that bass Sasuke and Kakashi's just he's just able to tell that Naruto's still trying to catch up to Sasuke and at this point Kakashi says that Naruto surpassed him so there's like two layers right like two degrees that Sasuke is stronger than Kakashi by in base and then you have his at least bare minimum 10 times curse mark amp he'd probably actually be able to do pretty well against tendo and Asura though keep in mind tendo was holding back in that fight because he he didn't want to kill Kakashi the SEC this dude I always bring that up I'm like the second tendo is like I gotta kill you he won shots it basically people always forget that the second Nintendo wanted to he's like Bap just basically flicked him off no I mean he he even says as much too he's just like oh okay you're too much trouble I'll go get Intel somewhere else basically and then he just kills Kakashi even while suppressed with six other bodies fighting an entire Village he literally stabs Kakashi faster than anyone we've ever seen in the entire series ever like there's no one ever tags Kakashi like that easily he straight up stabbed not even kakuzu if that imagine that was that Rod he stopped it was poison imagine that was a poisoned Rod like what he would have instantly just killed Kakashi like it would have been that simple and people just don't realize that a lot so yeah if you're like charitable to Kakashi and you just choose to ignore the fact that pain was suppressed maybe Sasuke would be able to beat him but if you take that into account like it gets trickier right one thing we should establish though is that Itachi's fight with Sasuke is not real one thing about Hitachi you gotta know he is the sandbagger god uh he legit never fights seriously even when he's in Edo he has to hold back yet he can't fight Kabuto at full power because he has to get him to release edotensei and even when he's like sort of Edo controlled against Naruto his mangakyo isn't activated and he's not able to kill them anyway so it's like you never see Itachi ever fight full power ever he did not a single time he has never bloodlusted like not once he even lets Orochimaru live he doesn't even try to kill Orochimaru the only time you arguably see him try is when he is having a literal he's in the middle of a heart attack and this can't see and he has he just one shots Orochimaru in Sage Mode basically he basically one shot Sage Orochimaru like without trying he just he just stabs him and steals him away and that's the only thing he ever really does just to like address it too before we get comments like what are you talking about already have sage mode so Orochimaru has the the his ultimate Jutsu the Hydra is basically like his like ultimate form it's compared to the sage snakes yeah yeah exactly so that would basically be equivalent in power we can just assume for the sake of Simplicity to like Jarius at least equal to Sage jariah yeah if if Sage jariah was a thing in part one then that would be his Sage Mode equivalent is the Hydra snake so Itachi one shots it while having a heart attack and while blind okay that's the only time he ever tries the whole series and he is fatigued and can't use probably his full power even in Susana right well there is one other time where he tries and he also one shot at his opponent yeah so and you know it's like even even when he's like fighting the Chewbacca attention I don't want to get into nagato versus Hitachi but even when he's like fighting the chewbacco tensei he still is not in his full susano so it's it's crazy to me you know like so you never see it so we have to base it off of like some statements and we know a few things about Itachi a few things and I think one of the most important lines of scaling for him is like is he actually an undercover like top New Gen Shinobi of all time like you know you have basically the top three Shinobi of the generation which are Obito Itachi and nagato basically and is Itachi actually just number one like is he even stronger than Obito who Minato thinks you know like hey you should probably get some nine tails shocker to fight that guy you know and Itachi might actually be and in the novels you know before Itachi got sick you know Obito's like ah maybe you know they kind of saw each other as Rivals implying there's at least somewhat a level of care around each other which might imply you know a certain level of like shinobiness or something you know if you want to go there that's novel though but I think an interesting statement is you know when Itachi plants Amaterasu inside of Sasuke to you know stop Obito from grooming him basically Obito has an internal monologue where he's like yeah if he actually knew about me I'd be dead right now he doesn't say it out loud he says it to himself in his head meaning he thinks Hitachi could actually hatch like a plan to kill him if he knew about him which means I would say that his Jutsu are at least strong enough to kill him or his stats are high enough to kill him you know what I mean the most charitable way that you can interpret this is is just that Itachi would beat Obito in a fight if he knew about kamui or Izanagi or whatever else Obito is talking about but I think Seth and I agreed the more likely interpretation of it like what I think makes more sense is that Obito probably thinks that if Hitachi had all of the Intel about him whether he was talking about kamui or Izanagi like whatever he I really wish Kishimoto had shown what Obito actually did at least like a little flash or something yeah like just anything but we don't know so it was either kamui or um Izanagi but if Itachi had known about that he would have been able to concoct some sort of like plan or like you know like post-mortem like whatever like the thing he did the Sasuke where he like planted the Amaterasu maybe he would have planted a second omarasu or like a third one or he would have planted like sukuyomi that's actually a good point maybe he would have planted sukuyomi and Sasuke's eye and then he would have caught Obito and sukuyomi and like Obito would have died like who knows right yeah but regardless Itachi would have come up with something like if Conan can think of her 600 billion paper bomb plan yeah that then Itachi should be able to do it and the last line of scaling that makes I hate dude I hate this Linus I hate this guy I hate this beerus Orochimaru like I hate that Orochimaru might scale to like War art characters unironically like it's so it's so weird it would probably just have to be with the Kabuto am yeah because like something that makes it even less you know inconsistent is that the data books actually say Sasuke never reaches or surpasses Itachi's level until EMS you know so it might be like low-key consistent you know and yeah some now something else that might be crazy too is you know do we think that the Edo tensei are heavily amping Itachi or not now that's like the fourth line God there's so many ways to talk about now that's like the fourth line of scaling because if you go with that EMS interpretation and like the whole Orochimaru thing then Itachi should be that level anyway it would imply Itachi is war Arc level at full power anyway and we know that even Obito with just a Sharingan should also probably be able to fight those characters anyway and with the renagon he's sort of like taking on the entire planet basically you know so if Edo Itachi might not actually be that much crazy stronger than the real one and Edo nagato is sort of like similar to how pain is anyway normally and then you just say you know like KCM Naruto that fought them is just like fatigued or something and so it's just Killer Bees the only normal one you might be able to kind of dissect Itachi versus Pain a little bit but that would get into like Edo Itachi versus Edo nagato which is a entire whole video on its own extremely toxic yeah yeah yeah but that aside you know if you were just only take the sick Feats of the character let's say that you know Itachi was sandbagging but just a little bit which is not true but you know let's pretend Let's Pretend he had to actually he only sandbagged slightly versus Sasuke which some people actually think for some reason but let's just say that would annihilate him like you know pain would just absolutely annihilate Hitachi video over roll the outro yeah yeah but it's clearly more complicated than that you know what I mean so I guess from there where do you think we should even go with it just like compare their abilities or probably yeah like we should get into YouTube okay so if we assume that Itachi is not just complete and like not relative to Sasuke which he's not because Obito insists this and has to like drill it into Sasuke's brain and okay the data books do as well so yeah the the data books confirm this and they are a non-biased source but I want to stress that Obito is able to convince Sasuke who goes into this conversation certain absolutely positive that there is no way Itachi could be anything less than the most evil awful scum of the earth that he just genuinely beat him okay like Sasuke literally has like a mental breakdown just like can't process like all the stuff that all hotels and he does not want to believe this and Obito just walks him through the fight and he's just like no really think about it like you're alive right and he convinces Sasuke that Hitachi was holding back against him and again the data books confirm it so he was by like a lot you know Obito was just like if Itachi wanted you dead you'd be dead plain and simple so Itachi was holding back substantially significantly yeah and it's I think another line of scaling this is like scaling line five I just thought of I guess is if you think Sage Naruto and mangekyo Sharingan Phi kage Summit Sasuke would tie which might be implied like you know when they Clash like Naruto and Sasuke are like you know we'll kill each other if that's the case and you know Sasuke is more like rivaling Itachi by EMS then Itachi probably slams pain you know what I mean like really hard that's only if you think you know Ms Sasuke and Sage Naruto would be like a draw because at the end of the day while pain wasn't at full power versus Sage Naruto sage Naruto was so powerful that pain literally just could not damage him and would need at least you know chewbacco tensei or you know to absorb his chakra or do something like that to kind of take him down even that scaling is weird though of course that's only if you accept that interpretation but yeah because there's like a billion different interpretations of this yeah so first of all like pain was weaker against both of his like big opponents that we saw him fight primarily against Naruto because he just blew up the whole village something that Conan even advised him against doing because of how much it would weaken him and also he's trying not to kill Naruto he has to make sure that he can't now I don't think that that's as much of a factor here as it is when Sasuke's fighting Hitachi or when Itachi's fighting Kabuto because it doesn't seem like he really can kill Naruto there he would have been able to do it when he had Naruto likes drilled down with the one Rinnegan rod and like immobilized like at that point Naruto was done but aside from that no and also like he fought like six Tales who's just like totally different from Sage Naruto and seems to be a lot stronger the other thing though is that Sasuke six and I agree about this I think Sasuke got stronger over the course of the five kage Summit by like a lot like as his young gecko was evolving and stuff he was getting like tremendously massively Mega Stronger Yeah he got he got to the point that the raikage was like just hiding behind a wall like you didn't want to like mess with him like yeah exactly so and well no another thing too is that Naruto says to Itachi I'm stronger now than I was when I fought pain but then like the raikage who Sasuke was able to fight and almost kill if not for gara's interference or just like slapping KCM Naruto around at first so it's just like like you know it's it's weird that gets into like a sage Naruto versus KCM debate but yeah I I think that this line of interpretation actually go goes into Itachi's favor because at least in The Itachi versus pain because if let's I also remember this as well you remember when it's stronger Kakashi fights blinded Sasuke and his his attack is so fast he's like if I didn't activate calmly I would have just instantly died yeah yeah apparently Itachi is stronger than that yep and we've seen Kakashi versus pain you know what I mean which you know might also further The Itachi agenda now I'm trying to offer you know different interpretations for winners I'm not trying to say like because I it's a very complex saw I'm not trying to say absolutely one would stomp or something like that but in that interpretation I do think Hitachi once again has like the upper hand a lot if that's the case he's basically almost borderline blitzing like a guy who could fight Pain you know what I mean a little bit he wasn't on Payne's level he did get like one tap by Shin or tensei almost but he was able to like react to some of Payne's attacks he was also able to like calmly the nail he's always still able to calmly the rocket and it's implied to be like less scary than like The susano Arrow or something like that at least from what I heard he was like that you know he was that surprised but there's also another thing to talk about and that's in the weekly release of the Naruto manga this is the stupidest part of this video yeah yeah for sure and the weekly release of the Naruto manga Kishimoto used to write you know hype lines you know like next time you know on Dragon Ball Z you know like stuff like that you know and in one of these chapters it's after pain is introduced and we see you know the new Madara quote-unquote there's a statement the strongest man in the Akatsuki pursues Naruto next time Itachi's Pursuit you know and then color so this debate then goes into either Payne or Itachi are the strongest in the Akatsuki because it's either pain is pursuing Naruto or it's saying next time we'll see you the strongest guy pursuit in arto and it's Itachi's clone pursuing Naruto yeah so this is so like stupid and contentious and weird like this is one of those things that to get a definitive answer to this you would just have to ask Kishimoto yeah who were you talking about in the weekly release Shonen Jump Naruto chapter 364. the strongest man in the Akatsuki oh I'm pretty sure that was Obito but you know but um it's right after Payne's big introduction and he's literally like on the page and then you know it's like you know there's like the lightning Flash and stuff it's Obito telling him to pursue Naruto yeah exactly it's like okay well you have to go after Naruto so you know on one hand it's like oh okay clearly it's pain but then on the other hand the next thing after that on the page is Itachi's Pursuit and what happens in the next chapter Itachi pursues Naruto I almost want to say Kishimoto did that on purpose I'm pretty sure he did I think he was saying they were both the strongest man maybe they're just recalls like I don't know but like you know I do want to say if we do take that since it's less likely talking about Obito now Obito is pursuing Naruto but he's always been pursuing Naruto yeah and the statement implies it's like a new thing and Obito himself isn't doing it he's sending someone else to do it I do want to say consistently that I don't believe you could ever really interpret pain above Obito but you might be able to interpret Itachi above Obito with those things we talked about earlier so I do want to say I'm slightly leaning towards Itachi but I do think there's a high chance it's also talking about paying you know I'm not gonna say you can interpret it like that that way that pain might be above Obito with that stuff that Obito says to Sasuke how yeah pain was invincible I couldn't even conceive of him yeah you know like so like I don't know they both have weird statements from Obito that imply that they're both above him they're both in proximity of the statement and like buy the right amount to be it's all like I don't know I have no idea who it's talking about so I'm gonna ask the comments you know based on all the information we presented you know all the Jutsu you think that they can do who do you actually think wins right now like just off the top right down below who do you think I'm actually curious what you guys think who would win based off what we said now there is a little bit more we have to talk about and that's the actual Jutsu they can use yeah because this is the big thing now this is this is a really important part and it's also extremely contentious and has multiple interpretations so we're gonna ask the chat what do you guys think after the video but it depends on you know Itachi tsukuyomi and ganjutsu right because this genjutsu and tsukuyomi it's very unique in the sense that it's basically a mind break so the thing about sukuyami is sukuyami is stronger than Ms Sasuke's genjutsu and it's able to affect Jin Cherokee even perfect gin Cherokee would get absolutely melted by sukuyami let's also let's miss this idea that Sasuke has tsukuyomi by the way because I still see it pop up sometimes like people still think Sasuke like no he doesn't Sasuke has hamarasu and kagetsuchi where sukuyomi would be any tanchi's eyes like danzo straight up says that Sasuke's genjutsu isn't even in the same class as Itachi's they're completely different right so the thing about sukuyomi versus pain is how does genjutsu or ocular Jutsu affect you know a path of pains you have to remember nagato's in a tower somewhere controlling a bunch of bodies and we know some things about how he perceives the world through these bodies and this is actually important because you have to remember sukuyami fries you to the point you die based on the level of information it can give you right so it depends on how much information can nagato handle how much information is actually being relayed from the pains to him and a lot of things like that right uh and it also depends do we think the renagon would just negate tsukuyomi would it just not let it work there's something like polite albeit like kind of wacky probably not concrete at all precedent for it where like the infinite sukuyomi Sasuke is like six paths Rinnegan was able to protect him from it so maybe like because ifachi has like the normal sukuyomi not like the infinite like reflected off of the Moon Six Paths ten Tails infinite tsukuyami and nagato has like a regular Rinnegan whereas Sasuke has like a hagaromo Rinnegan so like maybe you could say that it would work the same way but it's like total conjecture right yeah it's hard to say and also even then Sasuke kind of like blocked it with the susano well maybe he could because like maybe he was just blocking everybody else like who knows right and then it was just like it was more it was played off more like a theory than a fact they're like maybe maybe his renagon lets him do that maybe Sasuke just like guessed he like didn't even know he just did his best and they were like oh what happened so we actually just don't have any objective information like so that's why you know I'm gonna ask you guys again what do you think so we do we have seen you know nagato get hit by Frog song Through the paths of pain now how this affected the main nagato we don't know no idea we don't know if he was completely incapacitated we don't know if he's able to control the other panes all we know is that he wasn't able to just snap his pads out of it right the pads got killed or maybe he just let it happen to catch dry off guard or something you know like that'd be crazy that'd be nutty but we have nothing no proof of that but we do know that nagato is able to see what the pain saw in the genjutsu so he's perceiving it and he wasn't able to move the bodies apparently it paralyzed the body I think the data book even says they were paralyzed so whatever nagato perceived inside of there he was able to see in it and it paralyzed his control of the Bodies Okay so the reason this is important is because if Hitachi puts a pain body yes another path of pain could technically break you out of an ocular Jutsu but sukuyomi happens in an instant right it's because inside the illusion he controls like a fourth dimensional time space so a little one second or even like a millisecond or an infinitesimal amount of time a whole lifetime could happen you know by the time someone else helps you out and this is why it works on Jin Cherokee this is why you know the eight tails can't just break kill or be out of sukuyomi that's why Nars is warning him because it happens in an instant you know what I mean even when he goes over to tap him it's already over right like it's too late so then it depends is nagato seeing suku Yumi through the path of pain and if he is is he taking in like that fourth dimensional mind hacks of information into his brain and would it fry his brain just even perceiving with the path of pain had to perceive yeah so so keep in mind at this point we are at like the like eighth level down of like the branching paths right you know yeah yeah legit legit so um and now we still have to point out so if this is how it would work or we can even say that because like the paths of pain are weird right like maybe you could just say that nagato maybe it would even work through the pain yeah because well because like the pains talk to each other like they're different people at some point it's literally like a schizophrenic yeah it's weird well and then so the leaf captures one of the paths of pain and like the yamanaka are like they I think it's Eno's dad specifically not like the whole clan you know his dad like gets him in and starts trying to read his mind and like they're just like oh there's like mental blocks and stuff so like do they have like their own like nervous system and stuff that's independent of nagato like while they're being controlled because because that's kind of what it seems like it happens with Obito controlling the ginchuriki right because Obito doesn't know water mirror but then like you know yagara uses that and they're like using Jutsu he can't use is it like the pain has its own memory bank yeah you know so it's so it's actually so absurdly convoluted you could probably have like a legit college debate about this subject well and then the other thing is if it would like pass through the pain and damage nagato could he tank it because there's kind of like a precedent for like that he's able to process a ton of information too he's able to process more than most people you know because yamanakas are like we can only control like one body and the nagato can control six you know and it then kind of depends like do we think that okay because nagato controls you know six bodies and he's able to kind of rip people's Souls out and get all their memories yeah but then this is getting like So Meta and like weird but like it then depends like do we think that you know memories are the same level of information at let's say Itachi made nagato live his entire life right all his senses everything he tortured him for like uh his whole life tries to kill him like his girlfriend in the novel right does nagato removing someone's memories equate to that level of information and the reason that that would be questionable is because memories are different than a life of experiences right so take for instance you're just sitting in your bed or your chair or walking somewhere watching this video right the the little habits you're doing or the moments or the emotions you're doing you're not going to remember them right they're not going to be stored into your brain so when nagato ripped someone's soul out he's technically not getting the information of their entire life he's mainly just getting their memories or the things their body considered important enough information to keep but you know it does kind of imply nagato might have a greater mind resistance than normal people or at least a greater mind capacity so it might be more contentious like the human path seems very similar to like what he would be dealing with but like like Seth said the the data book just specifies memories like it doesn't seem like he pulls out their entire lifetime experience at once and well and then there's like another question like another new question that's like would Itachi even be able to do that to like most people or was he only able to make this girl live out her entire life because he knew her and knew like what she would be able to expect to happen right it's like it's like some crazy like knowledge thing like how well do you know them yeah yeah right well yeah exactly because she was like it'd be even crazier if we learned he could plan it in advance like you wrote it like a story and then another question you have to ask is like how does genjutsu work on people who like so okay like how much of a connection do people have to like bodies that they are controlling remotely in Naruto because Kabuto couldn't do anything about Itachi getting Koto matsukami used on him there's nothing that he could do to break it would it be the same for nagato who's controlling the like the pains like can Kabuto see through the eyes of the Edo tensei because he seems to be aware of what's Happening like yeah it's crazy how about we let's just say hypothetically you know because we've offered our opinion on you know the multiple Avenues you could say Hitachi or pain or stronger you know like I said it's a scholarly debate you know yeah you could have let's just say hypothetically they're equal for some reason yeah let's say they're equal and let's just say hypothetically sukuyami doesn't work okay let's just get that out of the way what do we think about their Jutsu off you know rain and let's say Itachi is relative to like all the pains at once or something like that or tendo full power or nagato full power or whatever you want to say is the equivocal because obviously if he's as strong as like one path of pain he just gets annihilated right like yeah so let's just say hypothetically it's like that you know is Amaterasu way faster than the wielder's attack speed and I think is another thing to talk about because Amaterasu is compared to Kieran and Kieran is considered an undodgeable attack by the wielder of it so it might be possible that they consider Amaterasu an undodgeable level speed even if you're relative to each other so that might be a thing that might explain why like nagato got hit by Amaterasu when Itachi like turned on him or something it was a nerfed nagato because it's like white-haired he was also like able to like shin rotensei it off of him but like maybe he absorbed some of it right and like would like was his like durability higher or was it even a factor because he was like Edo tensei like would tendo just get burnt to a crisp before he could like blow it off right like I don't know so uh if that's the case if you do think Amaterasu is like speed blitzing your own speed and he's relative to pain then he's probably amaterasuing like at least like one or two of them I guess and then the other should be like oh God I'm like get out of the way I mean that raises another question of how much Intel does he have about the pains it does seem like he's able to deduce his abilities pretty fast I don't think it's on Karama level yeah and I brought this up you know like Karama is probably like the smartest like combat and we've actually seen in the series maybe except for like you know Mata or something but when we see you know Kurama take over Naruto's body he's able to counter Shin or tensei instantly and when Payne uses chewbacco tensei in the manga at least the second Karama realizes being pulled up he's like I have to blow up chewbacco 10 he immediately starts blasting it literally next panel but Itachi he sort of starts talking to Naruto and B Naruto and B don't know what to do and hitachi's like I think we have to we have to shoot it you know after like asking Naruto what it does well Karama is also doing this like while he's like gaslighting and like grooming Naruto to like use more chakra so that it can break out and use like eight tails so like yeah his like situational awareness is like next level yeah so Itachi seems to be less aware than Karama or he's just slower just more calm about it well I think the most important thing to take away from it though is that he's not aware of chewbacco tensei which I think is a fairly reasonable thing to assume because I mean Conan warns nagato not to use it tendo has to be extremely close to him to use it and nagato's almost always in the hidden rain Village there's probably no situation where he'd ever need to use chibaku tensei ever up to this point so Itachi probably doesn't know about it how much he else he knows about tendo could affect whether or not he wants to destroy it first but the reason I ask this is because I think I agree with Seth that he would probably have time to have matarasu at least one path of pain if we assume that this is the case anyway yeah like speed blitzing your own speed yeah so the thing is which one would he pick like does he have the knowledge necessary to like to figure out like which one is optimal because if he doesn't get naraka then whichever one he takes out is getting revived so like does he know about the naraka pain and king of Hell being able to like revive other pains and stuff he usually doesn't start off with llama tarasu although he did as Edo but the other thing too is he can use it multiple times yeah but they might be like more aware or try to mess with him by that point and it also depends like is he thought she gonna try to feel him out like you know I could kind of Imagine a scene where you know pain is like you know he tries to pull him in boncho tendings him and it's like an explosive clone or something I could totally see that happening you know like just like intelligence wise alone if he knows that he can do that or if he tries to mess with him which Itachi apparently Itachi and like Kakashi and all those Ambu like old school Ambu Fighters they're very like test your opponent to see what they can do kind of guys a lot of the time so it might not be out of character for Itachi to kind of feel pain out before going for the kill and that also depends on what you guys would think about that now as an Edo he's just like amateurized sorry burning heavily yeah because I mean he's just totally risk-free right like he can't get killed like you know he can't sustain any injuries he has infinite chakra infinite but maybe when he's alive you know he'd be more proddy I think that nagato would and I could be wrong about this based on how he fought Jiraiya and Naruto though Naruto was a little bit different because he didn't want to kill him and Jiraiya I'm pretty sure he just didn't want to give Jiraiya the Intel because he was worried that Uriah would you know be able to pass it on to other people which he did he was right about yeah but I think that against most people and he's not trying to get or protect Intel he would probably just go all out and just try to like murder them because I mean he's a really like nagato is a brutal person based on what we're told about how he handled Hanzo like he killed everyone that Hanzo knew and and their family members right now yeah I agree I think in terms like an equal stats debate that Itachi does have an advantage in that you know not even zetsu knows and he stalks everyone he had no idea Itachi had a Toshiba blade that's a huge deal like if imagine Payne like boncho tennies like Itachi in and then he like susano like Spears him with like the sword something crazy like so there's a lot of avenues to catch Kendo or you know the pains off guard with that sword and I think that's kind of underestimated yeah it also depends as well how many people you think you can see with the sword at one time like does he have to stab him and sit there and absorb him and then he likes watch Kebab them right like just like all at once and then you know I think like as well if it got to the point where Payne is using chewbacco tensei you know Itachi might just go for like the duel 4ko or something you know like you know I actually think that's probably what would happen with equal stats is that Hitachi would be able to take out the other pains and then like it would be like chewbacco tensei and then he would just poke the Nintendo as he's going up because we know he has enough chakra to use Amaterasu like at least like two or three times probably so he could probably like burn the summonings with the look probably burn a few pads yeah fortunately he doesn't have to worry about like the dog or whatever right yeah he just burned the dog or even seal it you know the I think the only one that might be a problem for him is the chameleon I don't know if he'd be able to see the pains apparently he was able to counter the chameleon as an Edo but apparently I think the chameleon was like strangely visible or yeah he wasn't invisible at the time so weird I don't know like maybe it was just like an artistic effect but you could have drawn it some so I guess it depends if you think like Itachi has like a a way to sense it like a barrier Jutsu or like monster detection barrier like Uriah has although the sage toads thinks that's bad in the novels it is stated that Hitachi is like even as a child he looked into every Ninjutsu possible and saves Jutsu so yeah he even knows about said Jutsu which is why he calls out versus Kabuto so he might have monster detection barrier or an invisibility detection barrier so he might be able to protect chameleon it is head Cannon though yeah you know it's obviously like knowledge headcanon but it wouldn't be like so like unbelievably crazy if he did yeah like it would be like you know all Minato probably has X or Y ceiling due to right like you wouldn't claim it for sure but you would be like it's reasonable yeah so I would honestly say like in my personal opinion this is just gonna be how I end it I think it would probably be like more draw like you know like high Diffie or it'd probably go in Itachi's favor in my opinion that's just how I think it would go I'm pretty much the same boat assuming equal stats then yeah pain probably edges it out just a little bit I mean it depends on a lot of things though too because we didn't even talk about like the yatamir right like there's weird stuff there like would pain be able to pull Itachi out or would the automator block it could that could the paths absorb the toast I was about to say like what it would like uh the Pareto path just be able to run up and absorb the yata mirror yeah I think that's basically most of the things that we can talk about I'm curious what y'all think in the down the comments of course you know that's just the random equal stats you know whatever debate there's also like the 30 lines of scaling where we told you guys this is almost just like an educational like podcast video like in a weird way but anyways guys hope you enjoyed you know special thanks to swag cage for joining on this video it's over an hour long so I'm gonna try to wrap it up but thank you all for watching hope you enjoyed if you did please subscribe until next time bye

Channel: SethTheProgrammer

Views: 820,289

Keywords: itachi vs pain, pain vs itachi, could pain beat itachi, could itachi beat pain, how strong is itachi, how strong is pain, itachu susanoo, sasuke vs itachi, naruto vs pain, jiraiya vs pain, naruto and bee vs itachi and nagato, itachi vs nagato, seththeprogrammer, seth the programmer, swagkage, seth the programmer naruto, swagkage naruto, rinnegan explained, sharingan explained, pain destroys the leaf village, pain speech, ranking the akatsuki, itachi vs obito, pain vs obito

Id: w960-MDlsC8

Length: 58min 40sec (3520 seconds)

Published: Sat Dec 17 2022