Is OTK Demon Hunter broken, un-interactive, and the most skill testing deck in the game?

hello and welcome everyone to the 39th meadowbreakers podcast starring d moneygames your favorite rapper hearthstone player extraordinaire warshack your favorite comedian meme deck master deck builder brewer extraordinaire and myself your demon hunter master welcome to podcast number 39. how are you guys doing today that sounded so rehearsed draco wow that was good uh doing good man doing good another day another dollar you know what i say um just uh yeah we got worlds going on right now it's just uh it's i feel like there's some changes coming soon we're gonna talk about that a little later maybe um yeah just feeling pretty good uh just excited for hearthstone to be getting into like people are getting like more excited about hearthstone you know there's this big tournament there's a million dollars on the line some serious money um some serious competition as well uh so that's just exciting it's exciting whenever whenever the game that you play is doing well so yeah just uh feeling pretty good hopeful what's up war track same here i'm doing well as well i've been having a lot of fun you know again mixing up wow and hearthstone dabbling a little both uh normally it's like 80 hearthstone but recently it's like 60 40. uh getting mythic gear yeah looking forward to doing some wow raids and that's always it's fun fun so yeah and uh i've been having a lot of good a lot i've had been having a great time as well lately um did anyone ask you i'm kidding sorry i did i said drago okay rob did come on man um and uh yeah i'm having a great time i've been playing a lot of classes that aren't demon hunter um this week um so i spent a lot of time learning etc warrior and i i ended up finding the nuances in it to be pretty enjoyable i had a lot of success with playing it in my thl games this week and that felt really great just to you know have that practice on a another meticulous deck actually show that it worked um but other than that it is nice to just be able to watch worlds um and feel like kind of hearthstone's at an exciting point um after all the uh the negative things that have been happening for the last few weeks so it's uh yeah it's good to be here man good to be here for the edc warrior was it actually harder or easier than what you thought because you we we chatted a little bit before and you said you spent about 10 hours practicing with this deck um was it harder easier than what i thought that is a really good question um i would say it was pretty similar to the complexity that i was expecting which wasn't being easy you know i i kind of went into it playing knowing that i've played against it a million times and i know you know like all the different ways that they can win so i i realized going into it it's like okay do i know that i want to armor out of range do i know that i want to try and get the combo happening before they're ready to see it and they don't think it's possible so do i double down on drawing right now or do i look for the pieces to survive um i was just familiar with playing against it so much that when i went into it i kind of knew what i was getting into so i guess i wasn't really surprised at the complexity of it because i've seen all the different lines and pan out successful against myself when i lose to it so um it was fun it was fun though just to kind of get behind the piloting seat of something that i play against all the time and uh just figure it out and uh yeah it was a lot of refining too along the way because there's a whole bunch of builds that people run of it some of them that are more draw heavy some of them put more control tools in it and i eventually kind of fell in love with going less about the draw and getting like double blade storms double brawls and going with the full removal control package versus trying to get the combo out faster just because it i was i felt more like i was in control of the games and the pace of them when i was able to be like okay let me just bladestorm this board drop the bullwork here then i can deal with the next two turns of damage without taking anything the next turn i can like shield block i just liked having the extra removal um and that was cool to find out too that's like okay i like playing control um when i'm doing it really hard for a lot of times in a row it allows you to kind of yeah get to it did i have the risky skippers it did have the skippers yes you need the skippers because i'm playing against i was playing on and i'm not going to ban demon hunter bill um and that's kind of what people haven't been doing lately most people in like conquest formats that we've been i've been looking at in the thl formats have been going the safer route and banning demon hunter because they know okay this thing has a good matchup against everything i can't play like decks if i'm worried about that thing kicking its ass all the time so everyone builds these i'm going to i don't have to worry about demon hunter builds you know they build these more aggressive styles of of conquest builds but i instead realized you know i like playing against demon hunter because i'm so used to playing it i feel like yeah strength of mine um the demon hunter match up even from the opposing end because i'm really familiar with the turn sequencing for them so i figured instead of building um and a a game that doesn't have demon hunter i should build against it and let them play it against me and then i'll play against it knowing it really well and that's kind of i guess where i got a little bit of an advantage in the conquest format because i didn't ban the demon hunter like everyone else yeah and you had big big success yes big successes yeah i mean that's that's like what people like like a lot of people always ask uh like should i just stick to one deck or should i try multiple decks and like it's always the same answer like if you can make multiple decks you wanna you wanna play multiple decks because you want to experience it from both point of views um and get really like comfortable with playing as it and playing against it so like the more you play as demon hunter you're gonna be more apt to uh play well against it and know how much damage they could do in certain situations and the likeliness of them having certain cards so uh yeah very nice yeah the entire concept of playing a series of conquest with no demon hunters on either side terrifies me because i don't know the way anything's gonna go because it was like okay i could play against demon honor a whole bunch or i could like be playing like warrior against mage and stuff and i and in that situation i'm completely out of my comfort zone well then you just rope every turn and just hope that you're doing the right thing right um but let's take a look at the meta that we have in front of us guys uh this is the meta that you see right here this is uh across all ranks and across all servers so if you're saying well why is priests at the bottom priest is so good i hate breakfast well that's because this is across all ranks so maybe priest is a harder deck to play and uh there's a lot of bad players that are trying to attempt it that don't know what they're doing totally possible but nonetheless this is the meta and uh has it really changed from last week i feel like demon hunter is now at the top and it was i think hunter was at the top for the past dh was at the top last week oh never mind what i mean it's even higher in the top now now it's 54.4 instead of 54.2 did anything change i don't think anything moved looks pretty similar yeah oh yeah yeah priestess fell further down and druid went up a little bit so that's it not by much though right they're both still bottom of the barrel and they're both at the bottom the only thing that changed in positioning was priest and druid on the bottom but i don't know matt i'm not surprised about this at all i think like the most easily accessible pilotable decks uh that are more aggressive and follow their own game plan are on the top of the list so um i know like maybe paladin isn't the most aggressive but it's probably the most probably one of the most what's the word approachable decks to pilot yes i think that's why it's always up there pretty pretty basic stuff here pretty similar to what we've been seeing nothing nothing new really but uh we could we could go into the uh go to the top 1k let's do it let's go when i first looked at this chat i was like you guys are not going to believe this i did i was not ready to see this jay alex would be very proud um actually he doesn't really like world click anymore but uh world kick rogue at the top here which is like regular game that's like regular secret it's they run secrets right that's that's the secret um i believe i don't know i don't see any secrets i believe that is the second card on the core card list is a mind freeze uh no that's that's a price plunder our brain freeze oh wait oh the third one third card third card to the right so i don't see any secrets there okay well maybe not then yeah i guess this is just like this is just combo deck um running the world kicks running prize plunderers and uh two questing adventurers and uh yeah it seems pretty consistently good i guess yeah i don't know have you guys encountered this i i've seen it i've seen something like this i've seen quite a few world kicks but it never seems like so good so i'm i'm actually very surprised to see it at the top here i've never lost to it i've played it yeah against it you know what i mean like i mean i don't understand why world kick would even be like a helpful card against in a demon hunter matt and assault i mean i play a lot of soul demon on her and like why why would that card matter in that matchup like you want more combo cards in your hand you're dead bro like true yeah um but yeah i have played against someone who was playing a rogue and threw a whirl cake down that was interesting it did not seem i don't get it i'm gonna be real um i i mean so so so we were discussing it a little bit before the the podcast how there there's a pretty limited pool to combo cards and world kick is going to generally give you something pretty decent um whether it's gonna do damage probably uh in some ways brain freeze si7 agents you get eviscerate um a lot of cold blood cold blood head crack one thief eddie um i've actually like never seen anybody get edwin it's like always eviscerate when they play it having someone get a second edwin off a world kick on you it just can be convinced me otherwise so i think i just actually convinced yourself yeah i just realized why this is powerful can you imagine how horrible that would feel like if your opponent is like out of cards they have like a brain freeze and a whirl kick in hand then they just play the world kick play the brain freeze on a minion play and eviscerate and then eventually land on an edwin i would be like no like that is not fair i've dealt with all your cards and now you play one and then develop a 17 or like an 18 18 against me like no like i uh rob by the way you're echoing a little bit by the way that's pretty cool i fix i fix i get the point of it now but i don't understand it's it it's good it definitely has it's it's it's definitely like good um but it's just like i think it's just too slow i don't think you really need it it's just like added value and stuff like that but like how about you just replace that those cards with like good cards like that you want to run you know instead of like trying to get the good cards from it i just found some interesting statistics looking into this world kick rogue archetype on ancient replay all right so although this is the top rated deck in the game in top 1000 road games royal kick rogue takes up 2.5 of those games which is like none so yeah so this is like one person creating these stats this is j this is probably jay alex dude like honestly like we're looking at like oh this is the best archetype in the game because his specific deck that he was playing got its own arc arc what is the word it's got its own name you know yeah i mean like if you've played like 300 games and we're looking in top 1000 games and then there's another guy playing like 300 games that's pretty good it's playing your exact list then like that could create this statistic because it's only 2.5 percent of rogue games and top 1000 that are playing this list that's crazy we need to change this from world kick rogue to j alex rogue yeah just like okay guys jay alexander is good let's move on that's like pretty much what this is what else let's let's scroll down to tier two here what do we got um looks like a lot of the same decks that we've seen um highlander hunter feels ridiculous lately yeah i mean it's like you can't beat that deck if they draw their cards right like if there's no way it beats anything it's just so powerful and for it's not heavy on card draw it seems like they always have a play these highlander hunters like no matter if they draw cards or not they just always have cards in hand they're always summoning something they're always putting pressure they always get zeff they always get brand and brain on seven it's so hard to deal with so highlander hunter it it's it's a it's a tough deck to face against if you're trying to play any sort of like off meta and or fun deck because it just punishes that completely yeah um we've seen it quite a bit in worlds and it's actually been like kind of kind of meh in in worlds at the moment but i think it's it's it's very it's very uh hard to compare the two because it's totally different playing in a tournament um than playing on ladder because you're you're coming into it with a strategy a band strategy and like what you're targeting so um a lot of people might be prepared for the aggro the aggressive decks and uh build their lineup uh for it um but yeah i've a lot of i haven't seen all the matches but from what i've seen highlander hunter has been struggling a little bit it's kind of like 50 50 from what i've seen i get that i think like even though the deck's incredibly powerful i feel like probably knowing that the grand masters involved in worlds would have probably kind of made sure they didn't have a vulnerability to one of the most obvious decks in the game that you don't want to be vulnerable to you probably would have covered that would you not have like i mean like i would make sure that if i was bringing dax two worlds i'd make sure each one of them had the ability to overcome a highlander hunter you know i mean if that's if that's what you're expecting yes yeah like if you're expecting bomb or you're gonna you're gonna tuck in sticky fingers if you're expecting highlander hunter and aggro demon hunter which is probably a likely thing then i mean highlander hunter's been we we've been uh it's been at the top of the list for like the past few weeks that we've been doing the podcast um and yeah it's really no surprise to see it in there so i i would probably have a have a pretty control based lineup if i was to enter but it would be a lot of thinking you know you have to think about a lot of different scenarios yeah not surprising that up there sold demon hunter obviously feeling pretty good um seeker rogue pretty scammy etc we're answering everything agri demon hunter being oppressive and fast and in rage warrior just being a little bit worse than etc makes sense yeah i mean this is a lot of a lot of the same that we've seen before it's just like they've maybe fallen in percentages a little bit yeah um which is nice to see um but yeah kind of the same stuff it's just the world kick rogue was uh took us by surprise a little bit uh but uh what was the oh yeah we should do you want to talk about uh worlds a little bit since we're already talking about it yeah let's do it um any deck surprise you d-money rob uh i actually haven't watched um any of world i was gonna do that today so i i haven't i don't have much experience in the pool that's fair one thing d money and i were talking about that we got in a pretty intense conversation chat before we started this uh podcast was uh based on yarla playing otk demon hunter because bloody face said that she wished that she brought odk after the fact instead of aggro because it is the most powerful deck in the game evidently what do you think about that dan uh i think it is the most powerful deck in the game or one of the most powerful decks in the game um as well yeah i mean frozen says it every day and he plays it every day and like very very high legend um i play against it a million times a day and i lose against it a million times a day like if i don't draw lucia i lose and that's that's it like i'm literally just going like it's really it's really frustrating to play against because uh to play against a demon hunter especially if you don't know which archetype they're playing because if they're playing like you you have to mulligan for aggro or else you're going to lose to it and right mulligan for aggro and i get rid of ellucia and then it's combo and i don't draw a lucio then i lose um so it's very frustrating um but if i get a lucio i win so it's it's um yeah it's it's the best deck in the game or one of the best decks in the game uh it it makes sense that bloody face is really hard to mulligan against though you're right yeah because you have to kind of like because you have to always do the aggro mulligan because even when i play against demon hunter i'm always doing the aggro demon hunter mulligan as well because that deck is so fast that if you don't react to it immediately you're just gonna lose um yeah that kind of sucks from the priest's perspective now i think about it because you only have one card that can actually save you from dying to that yeah and a lot of classes don't even have cards to save them against it so one thing i will say and i was making this point earlier is that deck is extremely mathematically challenging to play um because you have to remember fell screen blast does one damage to three minions on the board so if you play one mo arg and you hit three minions with a fel screen blast then that does six damage to the opponent's face assuming there's a ignot out and then if you add spell damage onto one of them what it does is it duplicates the two with the moax that suddenly becomes four damage on each individual minion thus becoming 12 phase damage but if you get another like if somehow you're able to get another moar down that 12 damage becomes 24 or if you're able to get another spell damaged minion down then that instead of being 12 damage it becomes three times six six six six that would be okay maybe 18 damage so you have to kind of remember all these break points and then then there becomes the math where you're like okay i'm gonna have to hit my own minions how can i couple that life still damage to not kill the ilganov to not kill these first marks so that i can hit them again with a second lifesteal card how do i position them so that you can hit them with two or three and then it becomes very very very complicated with how to just use your mana and how to use the elgin auth and all of the cards in the turn to actually get to the mathematical break point before you kill off the minions that you need to do it or it's it's pretty crazy if any of you guys are interested in playing this deck i strongly suggest you look at frozen's twitter and look at the lethal puzzles that he's posted and think about whether or not that you find that stimulating and doable because if you don't think it's doable and you can't find the lethals when you're looking at those things in two or three minutes then you maybe need to make some cheat sheets ahead of time and definitely play with the deck tracker and think about like doing the math while you're doing it because it's a very challenging deck to play i would say um yes even though it's completely uninteractive for your opponent so we've had we had this discussion a little bit before the podcast um about i'm trying to look for the the math the post that he made but i can't really find it what are you trying to find a lethal puzzle the no the one that he has like all the math and everything for the for the combo i don't know oh really see is he made he made a cheat sheet for it somebody did maybe it wasn't frozen somebody somebody made a cheat sheet for it um i don't know what it was on reddit i had seen it on twitter i don't i don't go on reddit oh we're like one moar plus one i've ibm it was like all it was like uh a bunch of different combinations and how much competition um but yeah i we we were discussing uh like draco was saying that it's very it's it takes skill to play it and stuff like that um and we're going back and forth with like i i feel like it's the deck is like pretty straightforward getting up to the combo it's just you have to do the math like it's just it's very math intensive more than anything um i feel like there's there's really i feel like it's really straightforward leading up to it like you play your skulls when they're outcasted um you just try to stay alive and just assemble these combo pieces and then when you have enough you play them but i understand that there's a lot of implications with the math and how it lines up but like i don't know just get out a calculator and and like just do the math like when you when you have to i don't know i think i think what i find in my is my biggest argument about this perspective that you have of it is it sounds like that you think there's a moment where you draw a certain amount of cards and there's like this green light on that's like damn you got the comment but it's not like that because a lot of times you're just drawing through cards because that's all the deck does the entire [ __ ] time and you don't realize when you have seven mana in your hand and you just played that one spectral sight that the combo is actually there you don't you just don't see it so you just keep playing your turn and then you don't realize that you missed an opportunity where there was a lethal from combining the cards in a specific way with your opponent's minions on a previous turn like you don't just know when it's time to do the math you have to constantly be doing it the entire time sure you're re-evaluating you're constantly doing the math so when you get like but you have time to do the math like your opponent has a turn too like or you can just rope out every turn if you want to too like just like sit there and just like be like okay i have three four seven 12 90. yeah it's a completely non-interactable fact though i understand why people hate playing against it but all i'm saying though is is not everyone's going to be able to do it and it's one of those things where it's like if you're doing it and having a lot of success with it like good for you you can do it well and you can play it but it is totally a singer player single player game yes at that point like it's like yeah i mean that's what most combo decks are to me personally like you're you're not playing hearthstone you're playing your own you're playing a different game you're just you're just sitting there uh assembling your combo uh twiddling your fingers you know that's a way to play card games man dude like that's like like every card game whether it's magic or everything is like that and i've i've played i've played like an exodia deck before in yugioh i know how it feels and it feels good when you get it off it does but it's so [ __ ] stupid in my opinion um you're you're literally just drawing through your deck to get to this comp like you're you're just relying on like rng just finding the right pieces and just like it's not fun in my opinion like it's fun as like a gimmick to me but like it should not be the most powerful deck in the game like because it's it's when it's like so easy not i mean it's pretty easy to do the combo whether you like it or not like depending on how much damage it does sure like we do you'd have to do the math but like the combo is pretty straightforward i mean you're going to play a combination of mo args and ilgenoth and fel scream blast and stuff like that it's just like how much do you really need short that's when you start to like say like okay this deck is actually harder than i thought and like i'm sure it does require a lot of thinking like something draco was saying before the podcast was that uh like frozen on his stream like he doesn't really talk to chad at all like he doesn't really read chat too much he's just like focused on like playing the deck and like trying to like do these math calculations and stuff like that and like sure but like is hearthstone supposed to be all doing math i hearthstone like sure there's uh like we've seen like defile like how like cause like paul like there's definitely puzzles in hearthstone and stuff like that but like this is not like uh a cool puzzle you're literally just doing math like i don't think some of the best hearthstone players can play that deck correctly like i i'm that that's all i'm saying like it's like it's whether or not you think hearthstone should be math or if it's cool or not i wasn't saying that i'm just saying it's hard as [ __ ] dude like i don't like i'm not going to challenge you to do it because i don't i don't want to do that i don't want to go through playing otk demon hunter for a week to say i can't yeah so i'm not going to say i don't think you can do it but i i don't just just be straight what like i don't think you would actually have the dedication to sit down there learn all the math to it and then make it play it perfectly that's really different to get really high that's a challenge i don't think you could do it saying that i can't do it and saying that i can't have the dedication that i won't have the dedication to do it are two different things i could definitely do it if i wanted to do it i could do it all right we will i feel like i can master okay maybe i shouldn't say master but i feel like i can still win a lot of my games after playing the deck like three games i feel like i would be in a very good spot uh to like just know how to op like pilot the deck well and then that's where i would have to like uh hone in on the math and like just get used to the math and you just you just get used to it like just by playing the deck so if i really wanted to i think i could totally do it but do i want to no um it doesn't look like fun uh but i don't think you get used to the math from playing like five games okay that's what i'm saying that's why to get used to the math you just like keep playing it over and over i didn't get like a specific number for that i said after three games i could play it like well enough you know honestly um because like you're you're you're just drawing through your deck and then you just play the combo pieces it it it's the the part where it gets complicated is like when you have to throw out cards at your hand that maybe like you you just have to like know what you really need for later like sometimes sometimes i've i've seen i've played against frozen a decent amount when he plays that deck like that's all he plays and he's played uh sometimes he plays zeff on turn two against me and i'm like oh really you don't need zeff okay um and then sometimes he'll play ilganoth on turn four against me and i'm like really are you actually and he's he'll still win against me actually like sometimes when he does that um and like it's just i'm curious what is he what is he usually beating you with when he throws out his like most important combo piece on turn four are you what are you playing priest uh i could be yeah probably priest does he just beat you down yeah he'll beat me down and then he'll finish me off with like zeph doomhammer something like that that's awesome um yeah great thanks um and what a chat dude that's ridiculous like yeah he's like ah here's i'm playing an otk combo deck [ __ ] the combo you just die it's those nuances that would be the more difficult things to realize like when you can throw out stuff like that i mean based on i'm sure it's based on what his current hand is and everything um and like if he has to maybe maybe you have to throw out ilganov to move over the skull to the left something like that i'm not sure but he runs delena in his deck that's so good i don't know if he still does but he posted it up yesterday rank one every time he he literally has never played that outcasted against me he always plays as a four 4 mana 4 3 and i always say that's the worst [ __ ] card in the deck i don't understand it has he ever played it has anybody in chat ever seen him play that outcast because i have not um but yeah that's that's my uh that's my take on it um but warshack let's let's hear what you have to think uh let's hear all you have to say about it what do you have to say though i'm curious about the otk demon hunter who's who's right yeah he's right i mean i think it's a like semi-difficult deck to play i mean it's hard to say because it's a combo deck right so you're just sitting there not doing much the whole game like d money said it is feeling like a single player game because your opposing player is just trying to kill you while you're just like mitigating damage not really doing anything and then you just die in one turn which is a feels bad for one player but the other player obviously like it's a feels good because you win the game um i mean i'm not a huge fan of otk dax but if there are ot k decks to exist i like those decks being fairly hard to pilot and play because again winning in one turn needs to have its drawbacks and i mean i've mentioned this in previous podcasts before where i thought a very healthy otk deck was in the past the um like a sathyavar or the shervala paladin i thought that was like one of the most ot care otk decks to ever exist um i think the otk demon hunter is a little bit easier to complete in regards to like the money said you do really just need a couple of the pieces together and you can do a very substantial amount of damage um with the ability to do the healing blades and the twin slices and logan and k or kanye just makes it so you can go through taunts so it's power level is very high but i do think it's still a fairly complicated deck to play it's not like shutter work shaman where you just literally play cards you play shutter and you win the game there's like zero thought process there um i don't know i'm kind of taking a stance on both sides like i feel like the decks are really strong and really powerful and it could use some nerfs but it's not super oppressive and absolutely is like game ruining um i actually have a question so what do we think is worse do we think edc warrior like the edc otk warriors worth worse or do we think the otk deep in hunter is worse and then another question d money is when you go against as if you're playing the priest and you're playing against the otk demon hunter and you have let's say mine render when you mine render do you take the and use their twin slices so they don't have the damage with the loganoth or do you actually just play the logan often then as many little spells as you can um yeah so good questions thank you um ilganov uh yeah when when you play when you play ellucia uh if you play elginoth you literally like just went they'll concede probably um but unless you're playing it's frozen and he uses doomhammer and a bunch of twin slices he still concedes when i elucia he'll he'll usually concede um but i'm i'm usually throwing out more than just elgin off because i you use it like right after they skull like they'll do they'll do like do they run pull kill they do right i don't know whatever um they'll do maybe they do polka or whatever whenever whenever he skulls and then he passes then i then i just play i i play lucia i play elginoth i play aldrocky warblades they concede um or just just dump as much as you can um like the twin slices usually aren't gonna get them there it's like that's a that's a rare occasion that i that i mentioned like with with like zeff and stuff like that um but it does happen um and uh to your question about which one do i think is worse uh for the game i think it's or which one's better i guess um yeah what do you think are you doing power level or or like that for the game what do you what's your question rob about the comparison of etc and otkdh like which one is worse for the game like which one is more oppressive which one would you like to see tone down nerf go away like is there are they both at the same level is demon hunter better is warrior better it's it's definitely demon hunter because you can play around it less i mean i don't know man your bias is that you're playing against people that are playing it really well like you're literally playing against the guy who like created the i mean i'm playing against other people that play it too i know but the majority of people aren't playing against frozen you know like they're not like that doesn't mean like just because you that's your life like you play high legend and like you're playing against frozen playing it like but like i i feel like if you are high legend or you're playing at a higher level then like you have a i don't want to say better understanding but like you have a better understanding um about like what cards are are just too strong and what decks are just too powerful um like regardless of if it's only at the top ranks i don't know it's it's still like i i don't want to just lose because my opponent is playing an unfair deck and otk the the demon hunter compared to the etc uh like etc you can actually play around it in a couple or or like you can kind of play around it by like not having to play ellucia in your deck like you just don't play minions which is really a stupid way to to play around it like it they're going to have to change gtc in my opinion because there's really not a lot of ways to play around it but like you actually like just can't play around uh the demon hunter one unless you're just playing hyper aggressive and like that's not playing around it that's just smacking them in the dome i don't play against a lot of people pie at this deck really well man like i know you like hate it and and people get it off on you all the time but like i i don't think most people experience that like i think that's they are you playing in a very high level they are very lucky to not experience it i play in like really close to where you play and i play against people playing otk demon hunter when i'm playing soul demon hunter and i just punch their face in and they die i mean you're playing a pretty aggressive deck soul dh whether you like it or not is an aggressive deck in my opinion yeah i mean it is yeah it has a lot of burst yes um you're constantly putting on pressure you're you're constantly not i wouldn't say putting on pressure like you're not you're not really creating too big of boards typically but you're just smacking your opponent every single turn for a lot of damage um you can allow yourself not to die with healing um yes i get it you can play around soldie yes that's that's a deck that you can play around actually a little bit um and uh yeah the the the otk demon hunter i'm like what what can counter that besides ellucia and like take a test maybe but you're never going to get to that point like i i right like that aren't the other things you don't play like a demon hunter that's what i'm hunter saying to be really aggressive or else you can't you can't beat it or unless you run a lucio which is so bad for the game because then it it doesn't allow everybody to play other decks like you're literally forced to play these aggressive decks that we see in the top tier of the the meta every single week and that's for that's because of those decks because they exist in my opinion well etc warrior doesn't lose to it either because they like heal to like 90. right that's not enough though they still die to it i don't know not really i don't know they might get their combo off sometimes before they for you the other deck does like it's not like a superpower at all well you can't get the combo off as etc because the time yeah they're not gonna play minions yeah and then they're just gonna do like 90 95 damage or something ridiculous like that i don't think like i mean okay mate i don't think there's ever going to be a point where there's a whole bunch of people playing otk demon hunter really well to the point where everyone's like [ __ ] this deck it needs to get nerfed i i don't i just don't think that normal people are going to want to do it and learn it and make it get it to the level where it is actually that's not i think it's incredibly powerful though what do you mean they're like just because people don't play it can't do it just be okay you can't you can't say it's overpowered but just because people don't play it we're not gonna change it well i'm saying it's overpowered if people can do it but i'm saying that like one percent of people can do it so why would you nerf something that only like the top one percent of players in the entire world are even able to do like because then the other top one percent players are gonna feel like this is like stupid and unfair because like if i'd like so then you're just basically saying [ __ ] the top one percent like you guys can't replace this it's really targetable like you said too like all you have to do is play an aggressive deck there's like a ton of aggressive decks out there so if it ever became otk demon hunter is the deck that everyone's playing is the top one percent then maybe we put on our aggressive pants and we go on the ladder with an aggressive deck and we farm them and then we tell them to stop playing it you know like it's it's it's just like it's a card game meta that's what happens like just it doesn't mean the deck is i don't know man i think etc is easier to play and i think that deck is actually something that i think is easier too yeah yeah i think that that's good first um just because yeah a deck having a high skill ceiling and the higher the skill ceiling the better the deck performs is a good argument that the deck shouldn't exist i think the higher the ceiling for the deck and the better you can perform is like a wonderful thing for a strategy game and is that is that wrong i think it's it is a good thing for a strategy you can be really good at it it's it's it's like a different kind of skill it goes back to like the math thing again i i don't know like it's it's intelligence math like it's just it's just blatantly too good like frozen literally says it every single day i've i've watched a stream like three times in my lifetime um and i've watched it for like five minutes each time like separate days and he's always playing otk dh and every time i'm in this chat every time i'm in a stream he always says this deck is too good this deck is broken like like every single day just the last question we've been hammering out this this for a while now um how many people in the the worlds brought otk um steven hunter to the tournament wait what was your question rob uh do we know so for worlds the tournament had did how many players brought otk demon hunter uh not a lot of them i know i know um the only one i've really watched play it was yarla i only saw yarla as well but maybe there's one more i don't know okay yeah i mean there's quite a few like top decks like anyway like so you don't necessarily like a lot of people brought very aggressive lineups so if they did if people did bring uh that otk demon hunter then they would probably get just stomped with it so yeah that makes sense i i think like etc could turn into being like the best deck in the entire game as long as it keeps countering demon hunter and the combo is a lot more doable like you don't have to be like you don't have to do super complicated math to do etc like you just kind of like you know you you play the edc you pen flinger it you duplicate it you throw down the broom you run all the minions into [ __ ] and then you win like it's like it's pretty straightforward as a combo or i feel like i don't know man like that deck it kind of ruins the whole control meta game you know more than the otk demon hunter one does in a larger perspective of the game i mean i die i've died on turn seven and eight multiple times against otk demon hunter even soul demon hunter not even lying like oh yeah that happens okay well um from 30 and uh okay well um yeah i mean i died by turn four against an aggro demon hunter well that's different i'm saying like like otk like style like like it's it's just uh it's too strong my opinion uh but we can we could talk i could talk about this like for for a year and i probably i played those games out on stream where it's like i am just drawing the cards and then playing them on the board my opponent doesn't have the answers originally and then it turns into oh i draw elgin auth when i have a whole bunch of twin slices in my hand and punch my opponent for 14 on turn six no like they'll they'll skull on turn six and then turn seven i i've been i've been bursted down from 24 to 30 hp um like just from hand one thing i've started to do while we're streaming things like that that happen is identify when it didn't matter what our opponent did that game because like that was the that's the case when it happens like it's [ __ ] and i totally agree that those situations shouldn't be played out to the point where good decks don't even get to play the game at that point but yes that does happen sometimes and i also advocate that's why demon hunters should be nerfed i don't like it when i can just run a train into someone and they lose the game without playing that's like kind of i don't know but it you take those when it happens [Laughter] if you play the same thing all the time it feels nice yeah so i i posted a uh i posted a tweet uh last night or this morning on uh some changes that i thought should should uh occur in the game some nerfs and i i got one comment not to really throw shade on one person but um one person said uh let me let me let me bring it up real quick i can get it in just a second here um they said there's so many comments so many mad people um okay so somebody said oh my god there's so many i'm just so popular guys sorry sorry there's a lot of comments on this guys and a lot of them are really mad at t-money also guys you don't have to take these things personally when hearthstone streamers post tweets about like what do you think the balance changes should be if you disagree with them just because d money thinks blade dan should be three doesn't mean that like he's an [ __ ] even if he's completely wrong you know like he's just sharing his subjective opinion yeah nobody else nobody else has put out any like like people have put out like uh what they think could have like they put out like rough estimates on like maybe like oh blade dance could get changed this could get changed like maybe like three or four cards but like i actually put out like 10 cards i laid it out in like a picture and i put out what changes i'd want them to to do or what i think like they will do um and and one person said first of all why do you want to nerf i think all tier one decks are in a good spot with good and bad matchups also we're still looking for new decks and it's not solved yet um and uh the fact the fact that like tier one decks are in a good spot or whatever with like good and bad matchups like that's totally irrelevant to like the fact that like tier one decks could be in a good spot and like still have overpowered carts um so like that's i feel like that's just something like people have to realize like i i know you might what's up uh i was just gonna say in the same comment if there's tier one decks and they have good and bad matchups and we have all that information that means the meta is pretty solved we're not still figuring stuff out for things to be labeled a tier one deck and for things to have good and bad matchups labeled and we understand them means that things have shaken out already we kind of know what's going on yeah i mean maybe people are trying new things in in silver three but like uh it's it's pretty figured out and we i i feel like i'm not like trying to like toot my own horn but like i feel like uh i i play this game enough and at a high level that i can i have a really good idea of like what is too strong and what can use a change um except for his clear unbiased of only playing the things that he believes are cool and that he likes i also watch a decent amount of hearthstone when i'm not streaming on twitch i will watch a decent amount of twitch and i see it from different people's perspectives and i i've watched the worlds a bit and like i i i feel like i i have a good understanding of of what needs to be changed and what those changes could look like um it's yeah that's all i have to say i don't know um but yeah we should probably uh we have a couple more things to talk about here do we do do you want to talk about like world kick i think we already talked about it really so yeah we did we did um was there anything else or do you want to go into q and a i just want to say like one thing because i was just thinking about this too like one thing we illustrate with this podcast is like in and people are really jumping on d-money on twitter about his opinions about cards is that it's okay to disagree with people about hearthstone and video games and you can still be friends with them like we like me and d money and worship don't have to agree on all of these issues all the time and that doesn't make us not friends you know like we we argue about it and that's that's just fun you know it's it's not like a personal thing or you have to tell someone they suck at the game because they think etc should be nerfed all right the end let's go into q a yeah i mean uh yeah i talk about how i hate dh every single day and yet i do a podcast with draco cat who literally exclusively plays demon hunter um so yeah but guys it is the q plus a section of the podcast which is also q and a and that means question and answer so if you have questions please feel free to drop them in chat and we'll grab this behind you with answers what's a bad matchup for demon hunter in general you're gonna be more specific considering there's three viable archetypes right now soul demon hunter otk demon hunter and aggro demon hunter and each one of them has a different spread so um but they all have bad matchups too even though spoiler alert there's no bad matchups for demon hunter that's not true dude that is not true also chat to uh to help you ask your favorite streamers questions in regards to decks you should play a common question i'm sure me draco and d-money always get is hey what's the best deck so how to phrase this question slightly different and get a lot more information out of the person you're asking is hey blank is my favorite class what's a fun and or cool deck i could play with this class that allows us to kind of like give you a better picture because if you ask what the best deck is and dracco recommends otk demon absolutely despise demon hunter you've wasted your question and you've wasted his answer and you might be 14 and not be used to doing a lot of math and then like you're not gonna be successful that's not fun that is not fun you know if you want to play a game not do think about it as much then i definitely wouldn't recommend otk demon hunter you know play the aggro one you have more success and you have to think less also i forgot guys we haven't actually gone off of our talked about off meta decks in a while now we used to talk about spicy brews like one spicy deck a week we haven't done that in a while [ __ ] that nobody has a spicy here no but nobody's getting a spicy deck rod what we got nobody has one rob's got one i know i have one i have the highlander paladin rob hit legend with highlander paladin this week and sir finley is not a meme not only highlander paladin what is what is it it's a c'thun control highlander paladin how many times have you really gotten off get through it i was gonna ask that um it really depended on the matchup i had let me pull up the amount of games i played i think i got them off two or three times i went 18 and 8 to legend and i got them off two or three times and it's mainly in there to beat priests um because it's hard to kind of out value them sometimes because i don't run dqa in this list because it's too slow um so instead of dqa put in c'thun and it also i cut down on some five drops and giving paladin the uh utility and um flexibility of having an extra aoe spell to use with lord bear off so you go like lord bear off heart as a wonderful ward clear a board clear you could go lord bear off maul him also the four mana paladin legendary that casts a random spell from your deck she could cast a c'thun part which is pretty cool and it counts towards that that's true i mean she might destroy herself with it if she casts the wrong one she could if she casts them all but if she casts i it actually targets her she gets hit with the eyeballs and it does no damage to her so it casts it twice at the same time anyway so it does wait so it does it like once to her and doesn't do anything and then does once to the enemies yeah so if you if you cast the if you have the form in a paladin you cast the it casts the eye of c'thun 14 eyes fly out seven at your opponent and seven at her she takes no damage and your opponent takes all seven that's great that's pretty cool yeah so the eyes are hitting her and they're not doing anything it's like freaking out and they start spazzing and then the eyes of your opponents are going wacky too it's just a bunch of eyeballs everywhere oh my god i had this question going on on my discord last night and i could not figure out the [ __ ] answer to it and i'm curious if you guys know so if i'm playing against a paladin right i have aldraky warblades up right and they have the seven five lifesteal minion with the divine shield right um and the divine shield's gone so it's like just a lifesteal minion on my opponent's board and they're at full health if i was to play ilganath and then hit a lifesteal minion for seven that life steals for seven when they're at full health with the ilganoth out will ilganoth effect trigger and then will their life affect lifesteal effect trigger after thus doing nothing or will they heal yes and then the lifesteal effect on the ognath trigger and thus dealing they heal for seven when they're not full and then it does seven afterwards so they get hit for seven like so what i've seen with lifesteal is it triggers after so like if you hit a minion with your heli blades you normally take the damage and then it heals you up even if you go past zero but if it heals you above zero you don't die well that's not what i'm saying i'm talking about my opponent's health yeah yeah so it should work so if you inverse that you would basically do damage to them and then it would heal them is what i'm saying so if you take that same logic and apply it to their minion because the ilganov damage is like a lightning bolt trigger like it's like the little lightning thing underneath of it whenever you hit something where it's like this is a minion doing an effect right now kind of thing so usually it does face damage resolves before minion damage yeah i mean i'm pretty sure exactly what bunch are saying in chat i i think that it's uh oh yeah what am i doing i'm supposed to show chad i'm not supposed to draw that there we go um it may depend on which minion yeah i think it i think it depends on which one was played first in that scenario i really want to know i i just can't i feel like someone needs to do it and and that might be true too because if the ill goth is played after then perhaps it does the lifesteal of the other minion before i don't think it just falls down to like like like no no offense rob i don't think it really just comes down to like the way the damage order is because it's like a lightning bolt effect on the ilgenoth when it actually does the damage which is weird i don't know man it's like you'll have to test it out and let us know next week um when highlander rotates the money will have nothing left to play correct true but what did you play before because i think i met you during the old doom meta so what were you playing in which would before it will do stuff that's a long time ago yeah but that was like that was that was the meta board and that was rise of shadows okay so that means you were playing not tempo mage because that was the oppressive deck in that piano period that was aggressive right you're not tempo rogue not tempo rogue because that was the uh the time where we would prep raiding party um yeah quit like yeah no uh more or like more popular decks than i don't remember even an odd right no no no no this was uh during the rise of shadows mata like that was when murloc shaman was actually good at one point for a brief period of time because like you would do the oracles and uh not the oracles the uh the anglers that would refill your hands and then you would run like the the blood lust to win with those priests was really bad at this point because we just rotated out all of the cards like and changed and he got rid of mind blast and leroy that's a really i can't really remember far back like that i i'm so bad at like remembering which decks were like in the meta at what what expansion and stuff like that but probably your major is super bad yeah we were playing there was like token um token druid with snip snap you know like like it was like mech token druid with the magnetized minions and stuff remember that i don't know if you made youtube content d money you could just scroll backwards and you could see all the decks you were playing at that time all right well what did you play before the only one who does that here uh what'd you say draco what did you play before highlander man that's like not even like that hard of a question like it was just it was mainly i i've just mainly been a control player so i i used to i play i used to love like old school control warrior uh dragon control priest that was that was a fun deck for me dragon priest that was pre-rotation but okay yeah well i don't know i'm just i i um dragon priest was last a thing in standard when anduin was in standard right like draconid operative that is so that was i don't know i don't know the timeline bro you asked me like before highlander i don't know bro um just i don't know next question um i just can't remember man hey after highlander stuff rotates i'm still gonna play one-offs anyway just to flex on people all right how about that like that all right any more questions guys we have like we have like a couple minutes left here coming coming in right at an hour here um meta break us live oh i remember what was happening in rise of shadows that uh was the khadgar giant meta oh yeah that's what i was playing oh god uh yeah with cyclones and stuff right i did love me some mountain giants yeah yeah that was the mountain giant duplication meta i mean was was hanlock a thing then the most popular deck in the game during that meta was uh the waggle pick aggro tempo rogue right there and then bomb warrior was really popular and powerful and giants um and all the cyclone conjurers calling stuff was very very very powerful and then control warrior with dr boom was still in the game yeah bad memories bad memories um what would you like to see from the mini expansion new carts got him um i would like to speak amalgam yeah rob wants a uh big amalgam he wants you want some malgadon from bgs to be a thing oh my god mech hunter noodle's right that was the the really annoying deck during that meta i actually played a bit of mech hunter at one point yeah i hit legend with that once um i want to see from the mini expansion uh just more i guess a few more corrupt cards i'm excited to see what corrupt cards they come out with um i don't know i want another token demon hunter finisher like honestly i spent a lot of time i know and now you're addicted i played a lot of it this week and it's really bad um it's really fun though you know it's it's uh yeah it would be cool if there was a finisher that didn't require me to buff a card in my hand get multiple cards reduced and then initiate the combo honest on an empty board that would be better for the deck i feel like it might be a little more powerful if we had something that was a little bit in strength level equivalent to like blood loss like give your hero plus three attack for each minion you have on the board that would be fine you know i mean the mini expansion i said it i probably said it last week but like the mini expansion could bring you like like it could bring us like anything like we have we really don't know like at all like that's gonna give us more pure paladin cards just watch oh just watch no no please for the love of god you've already no more you're out of madness so they might as well just give us another one because that deck is more supporting okay give us give us a smaller wheel that if you get if you land on the five percent then you get to spin the bigger wheel well no they give us they give a one man a spell edwin tudor for jeez that would be the most terrifying thing now we know a combo card from your deck yeah so so warshag is saying big amalgam and he's been uh he's been right in the past on on some uh some some things he he did call the wheel i think at one point uh i called the wheel i called corruption that's true oh my god you did call all those things because i remember you were saying like it would be cool if there's something like the gambling wheel where you spin it kind of like the price is right or something like that we talked about that on the podcast yeah so uh you could be on to something that's true or you might just be a blizzard employee undercover oh [ __ ] i don't know um got the fancy glasses on as i don't know um but yeah i think uh maybe if we want to answer like this one last question about like what steps do you should you take to start playing hearthstone and then maybe we should i can start that one sure um so for hearthstone the best way to tackle this game is to play as casually as possible so you log on you see what daily and weekly quests you have you complete those you do your absolute whatever the minimum is after your weekly and daily quests are complete you sign off of hearthstone as a casual player you build you find a class that you like um you can find a class through watching other streamers you're like oh hunter looks cool mage looks cool and then you look for a budget deck under that class um and then you just try to make that deck as you progress through the game this doesn't they're not necessarily going to be a budget player you don't know well if you're starting off as a cat if you have never played hearthstone before and you want to start off i don't recommend spending money right like you're not sure if you want to play it or not you want to play the game and figure it out and see if you like it enough and then if you play if you find yourself playing hearthstone every day for an hour or two for like let's say like a couple weeks then sure you can spend 20 bucks on the tavern pass right but i would never want to tell somebody before they've even played like a week of hearthstone to spend money for sure for sure but you should you should come into the the game like with the expectation that if you do want to be competitive in the game you're probably going to have to spend some money at some point and that's just what card games are typically um yeah but yeah competitive players are like less than one percent of the game yeah but you you don't have to be like a the top player to be competitive like you could still be like hitting legend it depends on like what you consider competitive i guess um like to a certain extent but i i i would say heading legend is top one and a half percent sure but it depends on the because there's like a lot of casual players that like maybe play on mobile and stuff like that or like you don't know like the extent like it really depends on what you want but like if you're if you're if you're just getting started i mean i you should probably look up yeah you get a free deck at one point too you don't have to pay money on hearthstone you get a free deck um but you shouldn't lose you should probably explore all the classes um for sure uh like a good thing to do if you're like a new player is uh you should check out the you should probably look up like the achievements that are in hearthstone because you actually get like a thousand gold or something for 500 gold for beating all of the the bots on normal and then you get like another 500 for beating them on all on heroic and stuff like that um so there's like certain things that you can do when you're starting off so you get to recognize you get to unlock the other classes and you get some bonus gold and stuff like that um and just like explore everything essentially and like find out like what you want to play and like if you like it of course and uh streams are you know a good oh good way yeah what's up you know it was interesting so i have a friend and um he actually started playing hearthstone about two weeks ago right um on his phone and he asked me you know questions hey what that what class i recommended hunter and mage for starters and he came over last night and said hey can you take a look at my hunter deck and like you know fix it up i said sure so i look at this thing and he had no idea how to what gold was he had no idea how to open packs he had no idea about the rewards track anything like that so i went on this thing i'm like hey you have like you're like level 12 or something like why didn't you like collect your gold in your packs he's like i had no idea the game never told me that this was something i could have for free i'm sorry i'm sorry it's kind of funny man um no i was mind blown he's not a dumb kid you know what i'm saying like he's i mean he's not he's not a rocket scientist but like i was really surprised that like a new player in hearthstone had no idea how to get cards it has nothing to do with the subject matter we're talking about i just thought that it was really like i was like wow like he just didn't know you click on the picture and you get stuff and how to progress and what that meant so i just it was wow guys if you are just starting to play hearthstone and you're gonna pick a free deck um they're do your research ahead of time if you don't know what you want ask any of us during our streams we can look at the free decks and help help you figure out what's good to get for you because some of the decks are really good and come with a lot of legendaries that are usable in a lot of future decks and some of them are not very good and come with a whole bunch of legendaries that will probably never see meta play so you want to make sure that when you pick up free deck that you're picking something that you're going to enjoy like if you're if you know you're never going to want to play rogue then even though rogue's deck is probably the best one to pick out there you don't want to pick the rogue deck if you pick rogue you get krasanov and jandis and those cards are dual class legendaries that are in both warrior and like mage and rogue you know so for example like choosing that you'd probably be getting the best value of like an entry level into the game and you kind of just want to make sure that you pick make these decisions in the most beneficial way to you because if you go and pick the pure paladin deck and realize i hate pure paladin guess what you have no neutral cards so you just like got all paladin cards for your free deck um and that's not gonna be awesome so yeah yeah make sure you do your research before you when it says what deck do you want like don't just pick something and click confirm like put the ipad down log on to twitch log into google make sure you make a decision that's going to be good for you because it's the most important thing to make as a newbie the most important decision of your life all right yeah i mean if you're going to play hardcore and you're not going to play money then this is the literally the most important decision you're going to make with your hearthstone so or ask one of us yeah true i'll tell you we get to that point and you know warshack does make some really great budget deck videos by the way and he has them all organized under categories too so i've heard i don't know he's talked about it a couple times right i love paladin pure paladin's a really good deck and you can just i don't recommend that one nope nope you can just start the game and grab it you know i mean like that's sick though you know and i mean like imagine how much of an entry level that is for people now you get a competitive deck right off the beginning and you can just grind up to legend with it it would work nope don't do people literally work chad whether or not rob likes the decision he wanted to hit legend and wanted a deck that was powerful enough the pure paladin one is good enough to get you there so um i think that's all the time we have though gentlemen um yes sir my podcast command is still not set up i thought are you kidding me i thought i i what happened to that i thought i copied you didn't pasta you didn't take the pasta i thought i did i just typed it in on your channel it's not even active it's not even working it is active it's actually pog cast oh that's why okay yeah that's what i thought uh all right so i'm gonna shout out our guests here um are you you're in my channel and you're gonna steal my copy pasta from my bot okay oh my god the one in worlds just um oh my god silver name did a revolve and it turned one of yarlo's three drops into a nasdormu 88. sometimes they put cards into the game just for hyrules you know talk about all that don't you love it when you see something like that happen on the world stage that's ridiculous man um yeah thank you guys for joining me i'm going to shout out to our uh fellow podcast mates here we got uh warshack and dracocat if you want to check out their channels there you go right there they're right in chat uh they stream on twitch very very uh i think warshak streams like every single day pretty much and draco streams a lot of days monday through friday okay it's it's easy to remember d money one day through fr i just wanted to hear you say it i just love your voice trick um but yeah thank you guys for joining me uh was a pleasure thanks for having me thank you for having me man you have a wonderful stream i'm sorry for arguing with you so much yeah no problem um yeah i'll see you guys have a great one peace [Music] you

Channel: Metabreakers Hearthstone Podcast

Views: 342

Keywords: Hearthstone, Best Decks, Warshack, Dmoney, Dmoneygames, Thewarshack, Dracocatt, Metabreakers, Podcast, Legend, Nerfs, New decks, Top Tier, Madness At The Dark Moon Faire

Id: cZjH-8HR800

Length: 71min 48sec (4308 seconds)

Published: Tue Dec 29 2020