INTERVIEW: Buying and Flying the Cessna Citation Mustang | Airplane Intel Podcast

airplane in town podcast episode 67 this week we learn all about owning and flying a very popular very light jet the Cessna Citation Mustang with its owner in pilot Brad lund will discuss everything you need to know about buying flying and owning an entry-level jet which is more affordable and more accessible than you might think so stay tuned welcome to airplane Intel the aviation channel about the ins and outs of aircraft ownership we travel the country to help you make safer and smarter decisions when it comes to buying maintaining and sawing an airplane [Music] [Applause] [Music] to see more aviation content like this be sure to hit the like button subscribe and turn on notifications today we're speaking with Brad the owner of a 2009 cessna citation Mustang so Brad I know you're a busy guy so thanks for taking some time to be with us on the podcast we appreciate it good to be here excellent so as I mentioned you you own a Mustang but I'm sure there's more to the story so if you could just real quick kind of tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got started in aviation I got started in the aviation when I was in college I was going to school and I wanted to take some lessons and I did I took a couple lessons ran out of money and a couple years later just shortly after I got married I decided to take lessons in earnest and still remember my instructor Bob Evan Oskie up in Sacramento area and I learned on a 152 and 172 and 182 flew a bonanza for a little bit just messing around then eventually I I got my own plane it was a turbo 210 ok and flew that for a few years and then had several years of not flying had a financial reversal sold the plane got rid of it but then later got back into it and got a Columbia 400 mm which is a nice plane I flew that for a few years then wanted to trade up and went into this Mustang so by trade I'm in real estate and I'm a I'm a real estate owner and investor got a start with brokerage and then started buying duplexes and for plexes and that kind of thing and then got into apartments and then kind of traded in from apartments into self storage buildings and today I have a little chain of self storage buildings we have about 29 locations in California eras ona Nevada Texas and Washington okay very cool so I'm getting the impression then that you're using the airplane for for business as well as probably some personal use is that right yeah it's probably mostly business maybe 90 percent business and ten or twenty percent just personal travels I visit these sites look locations and the plane is good way for me to get around to all these locations very quickly very easily the locations are all kind of secondary markets tertiary markets and so they're not serviced by JetBlue or Southwest or anything like that so I could easily fly there in a 172 but this planes a little faster nicer yeah about 80 percent of my use is just getting from A to B for business so it's a good tool yeah absolutely so going from a Columbia 400 to the Mustang I'm sure there was quite a bit of learning curve there both from the pilot end but from the ownership end can you kind of tell us a little bit about about that and some of the differences maybe between owning a high performance single-engine airplane and a light jet so the Columbia 400 is a good plane mm-hmm it's the precursor to the Cessna 400 I think Cessna bought them right yep Cessna 400 but I had the Columbia 400 it's a good plane flies 185 knots true a turbocharged and if you wear oxygen it's it's a good cross-country hauler smooth fast stable nice plane but its seats for somewhat tight mm-hmm I wanted a bigger plane and I wanted something a little bit more user-friendly for passengers and that kind of thing sure so without claiming on the wing and doing all this other stuff and so I actually wanted to go from the Columbia 402 a Piper Mirage okay that was the plan mhm mhm the six seed nice plain nice-looking plane flies a little faster the Mirage is pressurized single so on and so forth and then after I started looking at that then I thought hey you know it would be better would be the Meridian hmm Piper Meridian which is a turbine and the turbine obviously offers a lot more capability reliability so forth absolutely so then I was I was looking at financing it and I use a company called PNC I don't have you heard of them sure don't think just about anybody with 20% down and so I I went to them and they said well we don't finance the meridians or mirages hmm so I guess they lose their value or something about it that the from a lender's point of view they don't really like them hmm so he encouraged me to go to a TBM which they could finance pretty easily and I looked at TBMs and I was excited about that but the TBMs I was looking at we're like two and a half million dollars mm-hmm and kind of out of my range and then and then someone suggested I look at the citation Mustang which is you know a jet twinjet mm-hmm quite a bit more but for whatever reason the the citation Mustang is about six or seven hundred thousand dollars less than the comparable TBH mm-hmm so more expensive to operate but but per hour but the the six or seven hundred thousand dollars in savings buys a lot of gas yeah it sure does doesn't it ya know for whatever reason I asked him if they could do a Mustang they said yes I went took a couple of test drives and a Mustang and loved it very nice plane I thought I was way out of my league not this way way way too much plane for me I was a little bit feeling unworthy of it yeah but I I swallowed the pill and bought it and and haven't looked back so it was alone that's how the transition came from Columbia 402 a citation Mustang oh that's very interesting and you know it sounds like you were going through kind of a more reasonable approach when looking to upgrade to the next airplane and through some circumstances outside of your control to an extent you've landed on the Mustang which like you said is a pretty pretty big jump in an airplane did you find that once you got kind of more honed in on the Mustang you were doing a lot more research on it and eventually you realize that it's an airplane that you could not only afford but fly safely or did you have some other other things come up for that so the my biggest fear was can I afford a plane I'm not super rich it's expensive and for me that seemed like a you know who are you to be flying a jet but but as it's worked out it's been a great plane I like it it is affordable for me and the fact that I can use it as a tool in my business makes it all the more more reasonable because it's texted that could all the business pays for it right if I were just some doctor flying around for show it would be a lot more expensive of course of course yeah a lot more I I like the fact I like the plane because it's safe hmm and there was a time when I got out of flying where I I wasn't doing a whole lot of flying I had I had a financial reversal in my life the plane that I owned its Cessna turbo 210 I owned it free and clear and I needed the money and so I sold it and it was quick to go but but I did have a couple of scary experiences in that plane hmm and just turbulence flying over the mountains and you know sucking on oxygen and some other things and going across country in it and if you have a couple of scary experiences it'll scare you straight so when I got back into flying I did a fair amount of research and went to a I think they call it a risk management class mm-hm was kind of taught by the Kings oh sure yeah mm-hmm and just studying safety issues and I didn't want to kill myself so I was happy to go up to the Mustang because it's quite a bit safer hmm quite a bit yeah also a lot more automated - yes so I think the statistics what I've heard is that your typical piston engine you know if you compare that to a jet engine the statistics I've heard this may or may not be correct I don't know maybe some of your viewers will correct me better statistic I've heard is that it's about 96 97 times more reliable you know it's and that kind of stuff so I call it a hundred times more reliable that's pretty reliable and I've got two of them on on the back of the fuselage so there's some more reliability there as far as that goes and then you know it's just more capable there's more power it it goes faster it's more comfortable it's at higher altitude and you can cover the you know fly over the whether you're pressurized it's more spacious and and what you said is there's a lot of redundancy a lot of reliability that's built into the plane mm-hmm as it has you know a glass cockpit g1000 which is pretty capable mm-hmm I think the only thing that's better than that is maybe a touchscreen version of it hmm G 3000 but I mean it's pretty capable and and it's very easy to fly I I didn't have any problem making the transition I don't think anybody would mmm now you're talking about the airplane being more cable can you give us some some stats on the airplane you know tell us maybe what what kind of cruise performance you see fuel burn climb rates and and overall performance of the airplane so it'll take off pretty easy I think the max max takeoff is I've got a couple notes here 86 45 and the empty weight is about 650 360 so the useful load on the plane is about 30 280 pounds hmm I can fit about 20 650 pounds of fuel into the wing so with fuel full fuel maxed out it only has about a payload of about 700 mm-hmm which is you know 2 or 3 passengers right Oh usually you're you're balancing fuel with occupants but if you have full fuel you're probably three occupants maybe four occupants hmm as far as performance it's great it does feel like a big 172 in a lot of respects that's easier to fly and a high-performance plane because you're not dealing with mixture and props and and some of the other stuff they just has it has to throttle levels mm-hmm rattles that go fast and go faster it's actually a slow jet it's probably one of the slowest Jets it does 340 knots at cruise hmm is the true airspeed I regularly do that I sometimes see 350 so it's it's about a 400 mile an hour airplane and at 340 knots it's about double what my little Columbia 400 used to do hmm that was like 185 and this is 340 so it's good I like it it can get up and go it's got plenty of power it'll toss your head back you know down the runway and you can get from A to B quite nicely so there are other jets that are faster and I live in Orange County California area and it's not uncommon for me to be flying down on an arrival here in to LA or Orange County and there Sam's beat up other jets on my tail that are going you know 20 knots faster 30 knots faster so on occasional they'll pull me off the arrival let somebody else pass and I'll get back on okay I wish to wear a little bit faster but other than that it's great weird with general aviation it's great yeah oh yeah definitely and like you mentioned you know with balancing feel with with with occupants there's always a a compromise in any general aviation airplane obviously the Mustang is no exception although I would argue probably that when you compare it to most general aviation airplanes the Mustang outperforms it in many regards I think the thing that sticks out to me is the fact that the airplane is pressurized makes a massive difference I'm sure for you while flying the airplane for your your passengers as well especially if you're making trips you know through the to the west western United States where you got a probably climb pretty high sometimes and so you don't want the extra hassle of having the oxygen yeah and all that stuff that you would normally find in a smaller airplane now something I was curious about know you know going with the numbers three or 40 knots or so the useful load may be full feel useful or about 700 something pounds that's pretty close to the TBM and I'm just curious which which TBMs models were you looking at at the time when you were comparing them to the Mustang is it the 750 and 850 mmm the 950 was newer mm-hmm and I don't think that existed back then mm okay maybe it did I don't know I I just compared them side by side and hey if I'm gonna go big I might as well go big yeah though that that's how I came up with that but I you know the TBM is very capable and they fly different missions the TBM you know I think is is better suited in the high or mid-20s sure right versus my plane that's probably in the low to mid 30s mm-hmm so they serve different purposes different missions I think if you have a shorter mission TBM is probably better suited if you have a longer mission the Mustang is a little better suited but the plane is very quiet it's very smooth very few vibrations very stable and when I get passengers in the plane they always they almost always without fail they say my goodness this is super smooth you know it's smoother than the the Southwest flight that they're used to sure as far as vibrations and as far as the other stuff so and it's very stable so when I get into some turbulence or anything like that I love it because I'm a whiskey when it comes to turbulence hmm plane does remarkably well in turbulence hmm very good and it's got the you know full full de-ice boots and all that as well so icing is icing an issue for you or you have you found that the boots work pretty well for the type of flying that you're doing so I'm a fair weather flier mmm I try and avoid as much weather as possible at least nasty weather mm-hmm goes back to that king course on risk management I don't fly through those farms that question as a matter of course if you if you take off from any Airport you fly up through some clouds and you're at some sort of freezing level you're going to have I seen weather weather you like it or not yeah plane is very capable it's very automated you can set it and forget it there's a couple switches for heat on the engines and there's a switch for the boots and the plane will go through the cycles on a two minute cycle and pop all the boots at different intervals and you can set it forget it so there's a lot of stuff on the plane that's very automated same thing with the pressurization you basically just put in the destination altitude where you're going and the plane will pressurize for you without much attention from you at all mm-hmm yeah that makes the the workload a lot easier now because you're flying the airplane single pilot most of the time I would imagine right I do I do take my right-hand guy with me on most my trips but I I fly either by myself or with him hmm maybe 95 okay now so that required well did that require I guess a single pilot type rating for that airplane yes so technically I think all jets are our two pilots hmm I think all of them they make certain exceptions for the Mustang and for the Eclipse and for the Phenom and for couple you know the CJS whatever mm-hmm they do make exceptions but unless you qualify for the exception you know you're still required to fly it with two pilots and so as long as the plane meets those parameters and as far as the pilot has had the the type rating and the extra training to to fly a single pilot then yeah you can fly that single pilot hmm so then you you do have the the single pilot exemption I guess it would be on your on your type rating then very interesting did you find that that cause any issues or added costs when it came to insurance or anything like that I don't think so but I think one of the reasons why people go with a Meridian or a TBM is to avoid the tiebreak mm-hmm right I think one of the major reasons they say hey I don't want to have to do retraining and recorrect training every year mm-hmm it's time-consuming it's expensive it's a hassle it's a pain in my butt yeah I'll save the money so I'm gonna buy a plane that does not require that mm-hmm and I get that but for me it's not an issue I like the training I lean toward more training I'll get mid-year training I feel more confident with more training and so I enjoy it and I think it's worth the cost and I don't want to kill myself I'm happy to keep practice you know fly often oh yes absolutely and I couldn't agree with you more I think the more training the better in most cases anyway and and really the type rating training that's a that's about as good as it's going to get really I mean because that's right up there with the same quality of training that you the airline pilots are getting as well so that I mean it's it's really a great insurance policy in and of itself I would say I think the first time you get the plane you know you're gonna have between a week and two weeks of you know focus training going on but after that from year to year to year it's maybe two to three days right with an instructor and take get two or three days with the training and then go up with the FAA guy for half a day that's not - it's not bad but it might cost you know 7 or 10 or $15,000 some people don't want to pay that cost right now did you did you get your type rating before making the purchase or was that something you did subsequent to making the purchase of the airplane after for sure but there was no way I was gonna put out that outlay and then find out that I wouldn't qualify for the loan or something like that all right stay open or something so no I had the plane first and had a pilot ferry it back for me and then you know the next week next day we started on training so that I could fly it right away and then after you take the training you know you have some sort of safety pilot for a period of time right what insurance requires you mm-hmm I think my insurance required the VEX I was a safety pilot for I want to save us 30 hours okay yeah I think that's pretty reasonable I think for most airplanes like this we would you know typically see 25 to 50 hours depending on the total time of the pilot and experience now approximately how many hours did you have when you finally got into this airplane to get that type rating I had just under a thousand okay and and that that those those training requirements are actually all negotiable hmm oh if somebody who's talking to their insurance provider they could they could check around and if they were told hey by the way we want you to fly a hundred hours 55 it is very easily you could say no I'll give you 50 will that work you know and after they know that does work pres you can go somewhere else it's completely up to the insurance provider it has nothing to do with the FAA sure right absolutely that's a great point that's a great point as well now did you I'm just curious to because you know with when when you own an airplane and it's a person well you know more or less a personal airplane that you are the owner pilot of the airplane do you do your recurrent training in your own airplane or do you go down to flight safety or one of the other simulator providers so that's a choice that everyone has sure the flight safety is kind of a lot of people like that because they have it in Florida and whatever you can take couple weeks off and it's almost like right stay in a hotel and eat out and and whatever and then you can fly in a simulator which is kind of nice because you can do different maneuvers that you wouldn't do in your normal plane and they could simulate all kinds of crazy stuff that they can't do in your normal plan but I chose to do my training and recurrent training right here in my own backyard Long Beach There's place called Angel City flyers and they're certified to do the training and I did it in my own plane I set up lamented a little bit with some simulator but I really didn't like flying the simulator that match and although it's cheaper it's not the same experience so I I prefer to pay a little extra and do it here locally but because it was local I think I made less hmm yeah you're probably right and that's interesting and obviously like said it's an option that all owner pilots have to make that choice of how they want to go about both the initial and the recurrent training for any any airplane type that they're in and sometimes the the insurance company that you choose will mandate that ah okay hey we don't know we don't want to do in the local place we want you doing safety mm-hmm so that's that's a choice up to the insurance providers Bob very interesting cool that's a good to know now can you tell us a little bit about what the purchase process was like I know you mentioned before we start recording you have a little story behind that but in general can you mention you know this is a a jet airplane as opposed to a high-performance single or twin or some of the smaller single-engine turbo props can you kind of just walk us through kind of what the purchase process was like and then by all means tell us the story about when you bought this airplane so this is my first jet so I know but I was looking at a bunch of jets a bunch of Mustangs and looking all over the place and wanted to get something good [Music] with jets a lot of them are on maintenance programs and the reason for that is because the average user the average buyer doesn't want to stomach any kind of crazy out-of-pocket cost in case something happened with an engine or something happened here they just don't want any big surprises sure so go in jet in the jet world there are what they call maintenance programs and you can buy a program for parts so that they'll replace any parts that you need pay for the cost of those you you can set up a maintenance program for labor so any any time the plane needs labor that would be covered and you could set up a maintenance program for the engines so that if anything happened to the engines any engine repairs of any kind or any kind of catastrophic event it would be covered but it's also to cover the cost of a future overhaul so because I was a new airplane or a new jet owner I didn't want to have to deal about those issues I was afraid already if maybe I couldn't afford this plane so I wanted to buy a plane that was on the programs that had been serviced on the programs that had program balances so that when the overhaul came you know I'd be that much closer to I wouldn't have any worries mm-hmm and so I was only looking at planes that had all these programs and I did find a good one that was well taken care of that was on all the programs negotiated with the the the owner on price came to a resolution on the price and it was represented by an airplane broker who when I said hey I'll make you an offer I made an offer it was accepted and I said what next he said well I can send you the purchase agreement and you just fill it out and we'll open escrow so I did that but in the purchase agreement it was silent as to whether or not the programs were included with the plane or not didn't word didn't say they weren't and so that got me into a little bit of trouble because the moment after I bought the plane thinking that these programs were integral to the plane and would definitely come with the plane the seller decided not to pass transfer the programs it's that she decided hey I'll just cash him out the money that's in the account and sell you the plane without the programs this course was upsetting to me because I was a new jet owner and you know I basically got snookered but luckily for me I had to sue him unfortunately that's too bad but luckily for me I was able to go to court and show that the plane was advertised with all the programs that all of our correspondents back and forth emails had included the programs that the broker had actually given me the name of the guy to transfer the programs and I had already made that call I had already filled out those forms I already sign those agreements I had already submitted money and it was just that the seller decided to change your mind about it in the end and it just came to a completion couple weeks ago hmm I did bail and and and I do have a judgment we'll see how easy that is to collect but I do have a judgment for the value programs hmm oh if anybody else is looking to buy a jet I would make sure that you mention in the purchase agreement specifically whether they are or are not included because mine was silent as to whether they were weren't they were able to open up you know and see what is all the other information that's relevant and and luckily the judge was reasonable and said yes no I think you agreed to sell it with the programs you had read the programs to get the program so I still don't have the programs but I have a judgment that would cost me that would pay for the programs and we'll see how you check back with me and let me know if I I'll let you know if I can collect on well yeah well congratulations on the case and yeah definitely keep in touch to find out what the final outcome is hopefully it works out continues to work out in your favor and the your able to get those programs back on the airplane because those programs are not only not only worth money in and of themselves but it affects the value of the airplane too as well as your own peace of mind because the the backside value of those programs could be hundreds of thousands of dollars really and when it comes to maintenance and things and like you said owning a jet isn't quite like doing a 30 or 40 thousand dollar overhaul on a on a lycoming engine or something like that right now so a jet you know the tbo on a jet on this plane is like 3500 hours mm-hmm and about halfway through you've got a hot section to do which is at 1750 hours so and those inspections could be you know three four five six hundred thousand dollars and you've got two of mm-hmm so the the real benefit to these maintenance programs or at least an engine program is to impound or you know put away for that future date and when I bought my plane you know there was I want to say was two hundred and seventy five thousand dollars or so in the account for the future replacement or overhaul of the engine and I expected to get that when I bought the plane mm-hmm so hopefully I'll hopefully I'll get it and I'll get him with interest but as a rip out that was a learning lesson for me I won't ever do that again hmm well that's a great insight for our listeners obviously hopefully like I said it continues to work out in your favor because it's a tough lesson to learn I'm sure in especially with your first first jet airplane but like I said this is something that should be thought through thought about on the front end of the transaction and into the agreements I should have one more thing yeah there there are a lot of people who don't buy the programs mm-hmm who say hey they got plenty of money and if something goes wrong I'll fix it and I've got money to fix it and they don't want to buy the program because frankly frankly the SAS not Textron they make money off the programs mm-hmm they wouldn't be doing it it's not just a bank yet it's kind of like an insurance program mm-hmm so there are plenty of people who put thousands and thousands and thousands of thousands of dollars into these programs and nothing goes wrong with the engine so in that case you know you'd be better off if you didn't have a program and work paying that money and you decided to pay your own way as you went I think it's mostly for a the peace of mind that you won't have any surprises like insurance it's like a bumper warranty on your car right it goes on you could take it in you can take it in - as often as you want for whatever you want any little sound any little anything and you don't have to worry about the charges and the cost expenses but those programs do cost money and they work out to be about if you get the engines and the labor and the parts it costs about six hundred six hundred and twenty dollars an hour hmm hour that you run the play hmm fly if you fly ten hours you've got to write a check for $6,200 hmm very interesting and yeah so I was that was gonna be my next question so I'm glad you brought that up because it's not like a it's similar in the the overall coverage that you would expect on a car warranty or something but you're paying for it by the hour typically right so it's definitely a little different than what some some folks might be used to seeing and this sort of sort of realm for sure yeah well you know I only flew at three hours last year so I only owe you three hours worth that's not exactly true either because when you set up on the program they mandate you sign a contract for a specific number of hours a year then you maybe you sign it 400 hours a year or 150 hours a year to depending on what your kind there's certain minimums hmm so whether you fly it or not you're still gonna pay the certain minimum amount yes yeah and it's also probably prudent for the new buyer owner of an airplane like this to determine which of the programs they need you know like you mentioned there's just parts there's labor there's engines there's airframe you know and so on so that's another area in which someone should do some research or reach out to someone that's kind of independent of the transaction to see what would make the most sense for them as well programs when I bought the plane and I'm for about a year hmm I had very little problems but I was always worried that maybe there was be some catastrophic event hmm and as as it turns out I did notice one time when I was taking a flight the oil on the Left engine went way down hmm and I topped it up and flew it another half an hour and found out that it went way down again and come to find out there was there was an oil leak that could have easily been an oil leak but it was deep deep within the chamber one of the seals and my maintenance guy said hey that's not good this this could be $100,000 hmm so I didn't have any programs I didn't have any way to pay for it and he said you want to go ahead and do it and I said nope and eventually he did some other looking and they figured out some other it would be an easier fix because I didn't have to send the engine somewhere and I didn't do it with a mobile team and whatever in the end it turned out to be only $30,000 but those thing it's easier to just pay by the hour and not have those big worries right yeah it's not easy for everyone to write out a $100,000 check or even a $30,000 check you know depending on on the situation now did you have correspondence with the Pratt & Whitney MRT mobile repair team with that particular issue or was your own mechanic I actually didn't it was my own mechanic and at Angel City Flyers who handles Mustangs he originally like I said he originally said hey this could be expensive it's gonna be $100,000 then he said well no actually the mobile team can handle it hmm the estimates gonna be about $60,000 you want to go ahead with that and I said no and I said there's got to be some something else we could do I was already in this lawsuit maybe I could wait it out mm-hmm but in the end from what he told me as Pratt Whitney said hey we understand you're not on the programs so if you want to pay the cash price is only about 30,000 mm-hmm which tells me that they've marked up those repairs quite a bit and the programs are quite a bit and there's a bunch of funny math they're kind of like healthcare yes you know the billy-oh for whatever they can bill you or bill your insurance for whatever they can bill you but but if you're a cash guy then you know you can negotiate a little bit better well that's a great point too and you're right they do mark those programs up significantly as well as the parts of themselves and I can tell you too that that mechanics have to be quite careful of how they write up defects and discrepancies on the airplane because it could affect the payout for those programs and and and for warranties and things so that's an interesting point that you bring up there for sure well there's always the question of hey are they gonna tell me that I need new tires uh-huh but if they're covered on the programs they're gonna say well you don't really need new tires huh and that's always you know a one worry to me I don't really know but because it's so foreign to me I really wanted to buy a plane that was on all three programs a that's $600 an hour and not worry about a thing because I just didn't have the pocketbook to stomach a hundred thousand two hundred three hundred thousand dollar surprise yes anyway when I buy another plane it will also be on program well I mean honestly that sounds smart to me and having someone that you can rely on to help make some of those decisions especially now that you're kind of going through some growing pains as a new jet owner is probably helpful as well now do you do you manage the airplane yourself and in terms of making sure the airplane is getting its scheduled maintenance and things like this or do you have some help with that no I do it myself I formed an entity that leases the plane from my business or my business leases the plane from the entity that bought it but I hadn't basically it's all myself and there are some programs that will do engine monitoring and like camp systems will tell you what is due at what interval and it is somewhat complicated because certain things are do you know annually some things are due at a certain number of hours some things are due at a certain number of years and there's a computer program that kind of keeps track of all that and they'll send you a little notice this is a by the way you've got these three things coming up three months from now these four things coming up six months from now at least things come up a year from now but luckily I've been able to kind of manage all that and and take it in for service about once a year one guy interesting and so do you do you stick with your local maintenance up or do you bring it to on the citation service centers or how do you typically handle that best of both worlds I will I will get a bid from the cessna citation center net it a bid from the local guy a lot of times the items are very specific of what needs to be done mm-hm and they will bid equally so I'll get a couple bids and Oakland para and usually the service center will be about double the cost local guy uh-huh and then I'll send the local guys bid to the service center and he'll come way down in price mm-hmm and if he can get it within a few thousand bucks I'll take it to the service center just to say that I've had it serviced at the service sure if it's still gonna be half price to take it to the local place I'll I'll tell you interesting and that's a great strategy as well because as we talked about a minute ago with some of the markup in the maintenance programs there's also markup in labor and and time quotes and things like this as well some cushion like you can call it I suppose so that's a great strategy the same problem with the turbo 2/10 and the 400 I would go in for an annual and that Colombia 400 and they'd say hey it's probably gonna be six to eight thousand dollars and then when we went to pick it up it was 15 hmm so masane thing in in piston planes you just have to shop it out and you have to watch it and maybe just the numbers are a little bit bigger but I there were several years where I was doing a the Colombia 400 I had problems with the turbochargers I had problems with some of the Pistons and being replaced and there were like one or two years two years there were my annuals were about 30 grand each year oh wow and I thought hey for this much money I could be flying a jet I don't know why I am running little Colombia mechanic said hey the engine is you know it's prone to to needing all kinds of problems and needs repairs or I'm just not a mechanic I don't really know that so I never know if I'm being taken for a sleigh ride or not right yeah well and it is hard to tell for sure if you're not on that side of the of the equation or the maintenance side of the equation because it is in its own right a very complex part of aviation and of course a important piece of the puzzle with ownership so I'm sure as you gain more experience in owning the jet you'll see as well you that you'll you'll pick up on a lot of things too so you'll you'll be able to kind of make different choices or more informed as soon as I suppose as you go on with it because acquired skill you know it's it's always nice to own a Porsche or Ferrari or something but for me it's just out of my realm so I really wanted the Honda hmm and I think that's what I've got right now because every time I mean I had a BMW one time every time you take it in for an oil change it was $300 mm-hmm tires were 400 bucks a piece and you know this goes wrong that goes wrong and it was just a cluster yeah at the end of the day I I really wanted the Honda of jets mm-hmm I know there is a Honda jet which is funny thing I wanted you know something that reliable yeah that's what I have I've heard people refer to the Mustang as the fisher-price Jets it's very simple it's very reliable very easy yeah you know the engines are great and usually yeah I totally agree and and one of the things that makes the Mustang a a good airplane it like we were talking before is it is simple it's got mechanical flight controls with cables and pulleys just like the piston airplanes do there's not a very big hydraulic system on the airplane things like this and it's got FADEC engines and so on so it's a very simple airplane that makes it a little bit cheaper to operate easier to fly and a little bit easier to maintain as well so it's a good stepping stone airplane and I think you're right it is the Honda of the sky I mean all the citations are really I suppose you can argue but but being that the citation Mustang is on that the entry level side of a jet I think you're right on the money there now can you tell us about kind of giving an idea so far of what the operating costs hour per hour what kind of fuel burns you see and what have your overall on average ownership annual ownership cost been so far so so it's kind of brightened my eyes a little bit too to what I'm spending but the easy answer I guess is if you go to Conklin and Dec or whatever yeah you know they've said that the operating cost is about twelve hundred bucks I think hmm variable cost and I would say that's probably a good measure but I did that I did the math here myself just to just to cross-check their numbers mm-hmm and obviously the number one variable cost of a fuel right so my my plane and my version I'm sure they differ slightly but when I'm climbing out a full throttle and burning as much fuel as I can it's burning about 800 850 pounds an hour which is one hundred and fifteen hundred twenty gallons down at cruise I'm seeing in my plane about 600 to 650 yeah I've 600 to 650 pounds per hour which is about 8590 gallons hmm and then in the descent you know I see like 500 to 550 pounds per hour and that would be 70 to 75 gallons so I would say on average you know good rule of thumb would be plan on about a hundred hundred and five gallons per hour and that does differ a little bit based upon altitude and based upon a lot of things but what I found that varies even more than worrying about what altitude and all the other stuff is where you land hmm because jet fuel varies widely we have something else crazy mmm-hmm and don't even worry about how much fuel you're burning worry about where you land and how much you're gonna pay when you get there because you can see jet a fuel go for three dollars a gallon 292 75 and you can see jet a fuel going for 15 bucks $9 $10 yep so I'm very conscientious not of what I burn or my throttle setting but of where I fuel up and if it's the choice between signature a CI or some other FBO I will go wherever there's the cheapest fuel and I participate in several programs like CAA or UV air or any of these other places that can get the discount because that's the big difference recently I was picking up somebody in the Bay Area they said hey will you come up pick me up and I said no problem and they said well you know I said where you at and they said we're in San Francisco and I said well you're gonna have to get across the bridge to Hayward because the fuel in San Francisco is like $10 across the bridge and Hayward it's three dollars and if you're gonna fill up and put 300 gallons in that could be you know triple the cost mm-hmm and so I'm a little bit conscientious on where I fuel but on average if you're burnin if you're if you're burnin call it a hundred gallons an hour and you can get fuel at three dollars and fifty cents to four dollars fifty cents which is about what I pay where I go then I would say you're burning about 350 to 400 dollars $450 per hour and gas hmm that's a long answer I know but that's what I would plan on about 350 to 450 dollars an hour in fuel hmm and then if you were to add that to you know you say hey I want to be on all the maintenance programs cover for reserves engine reserves maintenance and all this other stuff call that another 650 bucks an hour so between 650 for the maintenance at 350 for the labor I would call it $1,000 an hour hmm which is pretty close to Conklin's 1200 sure I would say that we're oh that's just the variable costs there are fixed costs and those can be quite large and absurd in my case I I financed my plane put 20% down finance the rest of it and so I have a monthly payment that's about fourteen thousand bucks a month hmm and then I have insurance which is about $1,100 a month in California we have paid we pay property taxes on planes and boats and that kind of stuff and that's about twenty thousand bucks a year on this plane so that's a month another sixteen hundred dollars a month mm-hmm i buy some subscriptions to you know Sirius and Jefferson and engine monitoring and whatever so that was I'd say that's another seven hundred dollars a month and then I just leave my plane out I don't have a hangar here in Orange County they don't exist really so I have another hundred dollars for month with that so I've got my fixed costs for about seventeen five seventeen thousand five hundred per month mm-hmm so some people ask me hey how much does it cost to fly it I'd say well the first hour cost me about eighteen thousand five yeah but after that you know it's call it a thousand dollars an hour hmm that's about what I do so if you if you do the math and you say hey I fly 25 hours a month it works out to be about seventeen hundred dollars an hour for all five hours a month will be three hundred a year nice lot but that's about what I fly it sure and that obviously it will vary from owner to owner depending on what their fixed costs are and whatnot but that's a great insight into what it's like to own an airplane like this because I I'm not sure that that information other than kind of and I don't know where Conklin Dedecker and where aircraft cost calculator and guys like that are getting their data from per se but it's a good way to kind of get an idea of what what the expectations could be especially for those of fo living in California or in some of the states where they're paying property taxes and where things are just a little bit more expensive a cost of living and whatnot so it's a great great insight for them as well yeah and I'm sure you've got viewers or yourself or even me after doing this math that you would say hey you know I could fly a bonanza there for less mmm we're at em there for less and I get there an hour later or something like that very true and to which I would apply of your bonanza or your TBM or whatever else you're flying you could probably fly a Cessna 152 there yeah and so where does it stop you know at a certain point you know if everybody were concerned about costs we'd all be driving Priuses right but yes they would never sell any Mercedes mm-hmm but certain people say hey I think the Mercedes was worth the extra value or X never know that it costs three times per mile to drive than a Prius but you know they get the value out of it and I think I think for me the Mustang is the Fisher Price of jets and it is it is good for my business and and for me it is affordable I can be where I want to be I can go where I want to go and it's not uncommon for me to be here in Orange County have some problem and I say hey I need to get up to Sacramento and I'm gonna leave you know it's noon and I'm gonna leave right now and I'll be there in an hour and a half and handle some sort of situation there fly back and stop in Fresno on the way handle some sort of situation there and still be home for dinner so it's a tool yeah like I say if I were a doctor just flying around for $1,700 an hour it's a harder sell for sure yeah absolutely well the the value of the airplane in terms of the value often out weighs the cost and everyone's a mission is obviously different and so that mission is going to be really the driving factor of what the perceived value is of the airplane for you as the owner so I mean you know that that Cessna 152 might make a great airplane for for one individual and not so much for another just because of what their mission is and how they need the airplane to fit within their life and within their business yeah well and then I go back to what you get in my case the Sanitation Mustang is has a near nearly flawless safety record mm-hmm I think they had one they had one accident that had their first fatality just just a year ago hmm some some guy was on a charter over in Europe and flying IFR at night in the snow hmm had a fatality so other than that I mean it's had a it's had a remarkable record safety record there's all kinds of redundant systems on it redundant engines state-of-the-art glass cockpit and some of the things and the the jet reliability and the dispatch record and being able to go you know quickly and quietly and with pressurization above the weather above the clouds you know right through any icing and and just have it be simple it's it's very simple and in a lot of respects I think it's easier to fly then say some old twin 421 or something like that yes I would agree with you on that one for sure yeah very interesting well Brad you've given us a lot of insights a lot of advice things that I didn't think about before so I definitely learned a lot from you and I hope our listeners did as well is there anything else that you wanted to share or other advice you wanted to give for someone thinking about buying maybe their first jets or the Mustang in particular well I think it's a great entry-level jet I would highly recommend it to anybody I have no problems with it I really like it that said I've flown it for two years and I'm ready to trade up hmm interest oh and I am looking for another plane I would like to have two extra seats I would like fly a little faster I'd like a little bit more range if there were some and this is just a this is just a regional jet good for a regional area you can't go across the country you can't fly coast to coast but you know that's never bothered me because my my bladder won't make it coast to coast and eat mm-hmm but I wouldn't mind having two extra seats and that kind of thing and so I I am looking to sell my plane and probably trade into like a phenom 180 mm hmm I think it's just a little bit more plane and just a little bit more cost and just a little bit more capable and might be worth a little extra money to get it but I have I really do like the Mustang and it's been a great plane I love it very interesting I think that's very common like with anyone that steps through the various piston airplanes and into their first turbine I mean it it's expected for you now to Mono move up to the next to the next step in your aircraft ownership career for sure and we just and we haven't aired it yet but we interviewed a gentleman recently who just bought a cj2 plus camp coming from an original straight CJ and prior to that owning an mu2 and an arrow star and and so on and so on so he's got this new CJ 2 plus and I'm sure within a few years he'll be looking at another one my end goal is to get the fastest plane I can fly okay the biggest and the fastest plane I could fly single pass that that's the end I don't want any more than that hmm I think that would be the Phenom 300 maybe yeah cost prohibitive I would I think I get almost everything in phenom 100 II hmm like that so was he see yeah we interviewed a broker that was representing a phenom 100 e back at NB Double A last year so for those of you that may be listening that aren't familiar with what that airplane is feel free to check it out on our YouTube channel for sure anyway Brad thank you so much for spending time with us and we learned a lot from you for sure and hopefully we can stay in touch and and talk to you again when you get to the Phenom and and beyond sounds great good luck thanks Adam thanks you as well thanks for watching if you enjoyed this video don't forget to hit the like button and subscribe to find out more about our aircraft pre buys and aircraft ownership solutions head on over to our website pre buy guys com2 here a weekly aviation podcast search for the airplane Intel podcasts on iTunes stitcher SoundCloud or YouTube see you soon and stay safe

Channel: Airplane Intel

Views: 11,364

Rating: 4.7622375 out of 5

Keywords: cessna citation, citation mustang, citation 510, aviation, cockpit with atc, pilot vlog, pilot interview, aviation podcast, flying, cessna citation mustang, buying an airplane, how to buy an airplane, flight instruction, mzeroa, steveo1kinevo, airplane intel, airplane intel podcast, the prebuy guys, adam sipe, don sebastian

Id: NkYQytfQL3Q

Length: 61min 21sec (3681 seconds)

Published: Wed Nov 27 2019