Infiltrating the Hells Angels: Jay Dobyns (full episode)

the infiltration case ends and then my true identity like who they thought to be Jaybird Davis turns out to be Jay Dobbins the gun Runner debt collector turns out to be an ATF agent so that the Angels issued contracts on me they were farmed out to the Aryan Brotherhood they were farmed out to the MS-13 18th Street picked one up here in Los Angeles [Music] come on I want to start just by saying how how much of an honor this is for me man like uh we're full disclosure we're meeting for real the first time today um it's a it's a joy for me and um I'm so grateful that you would do this uh I read your book uh years ago years ago and um I was uh utterly blown away and and fascinated um in my opinion um you're nothing short of a hero you exemplify courage strength um your wild man uh I I I learned so much strangely about my whole acting process uh by the way that uh you approached your work um I do it uh you know my work is putting on makeup and saying lines for a living and I operate under the umbrella of safety uh you put yourself out there in um uh such an insane way in your life um and I just I have so much respect for you and I'm so glad that I get the chance to actually kind of meet you and look you in the eye so so thank you man thank you thank you for coming bro so when you compare like uh like acting to you know and like your process yeah so I've been uh I've like I've been in a couple films right acting playing uh a cop yep right is much harder to do as an actor than it is to do operationally on the street why is that when you're when you're acting you you have a script to follow you have a director there who's who's orchestrating things you're surrounded by a crew and it it steals all your spontaneity like if I'm if I'm out on the street I can take it and I can control the situation however I want by what I say by what I do um by my actions I don't you don't have the freedom for that as an actor right so like when I've had some acting spots like small right nothing uh to uh be uh of significance I thought it was super hard like you have to deliver a line and you have to like honor the writer's words sure and the directors instructions and all the people looking I thought it was way harder but I imagine with so many of the the so many of the undercover agents that you've worked with over the years I'm sure you I mean there's something that set you apart correct like your ability to improvise your ability to go deeper your ability I mean I'm we're just talking about Mel Chancey and I I want to get into like a proper introduction all that but we're just talking about Mel Chancey and I one of the things that really struck me is is uh you know when you were in New York you were there I think at like a convention or you were there with like a bunch of other ATF agents and you were like I want to go over to the Hell's Angels Clubhouse like I want to just go over there because you're so sort of deeply you know in this guy and in this guy's soul and in this guy's shoes and you know the other agents were like you out of your [ __ ] mind but you made your connections you called your people in Arizona they got you in and that's where you met yeah Mel who's a a friend of both of ours um you know sort of legendary Hell's Angel but you know you wanting to do that you you you having both the urge to do that knowing that it might help your case or it might just be that's where you want it to be maybe you felt more comfortable with those guys than you did with the agents at that time you I I doubt that that's a common thing for undercover operatives I I think what is common is there's all these different elements and personalities the one common factor amongst all the guys that are great is they're audacious that there's there's some that have various levels of risk assessment various levels of Courage uh various looks various experiences understanding of the tradecraft all those things but every one of the great ones is just audacious yeah they just have they just have the balls to um you know uh not be afraid to fail be afraid to not try is worse than failing it's like Jordan says man you miss a hundred percent of the shots you don't take that's right so so take your shot and and if and if risk if if if uh risk beca is is a factor in it you know then you're probably not going to be very good at it because everything you do is a risk everything you do is risky there's no guarantees right right and would you just like quickly I just I mean just uh you know with who I I just want people to have an idea kind of who you are like you're going to see very quickly um this this is not my [ __ ] day job you know this is not going to be uh this is definitely not uh Walter Cronkite it's definitely not [ __ ] David Letterman but I wanted to you know you with all that I'll dumb it down from there I appreciate it bro I I think you know for me I just think it's really important that people know uh look you know kind of who you are and where you're from because to me I feel like you know like the books that you've written and um what you've done law enforcement in this in this country and sort of your struggles within law enforcement with the very Bureau that you gave so much to I feel like there's also so much more to you that I I don't know and I'm I'm fascinated to find out but I mean you infiltrated the Hell's Angels and uh brought probably the biggest case in the history of that organization against them um a two-year process uh that is really in my opinion unlike anything that has like ever really been done in law enforcement before um one thing in your book and your book just resonated with me in so many different ways and I've read it now multiple times in my life you know you start off by saying very specifically you did not grow up you didn't get beat up you didn't grow up struggling for food you did not tell me a little bit about how you grow up and tell me a little bit about your sort of first encounters with violence um because you're a guy who who has encountered violence and sort of like walked into the face of violence uh with a level of Courage that I don't think is uh like sort of anybody else that we've had here before you know when I was a kid I was the heavyweight champion of sissies and like I don't believe that bro it's so you also got an NFL contract and played four years division one football and total [ __ ] badass on the athletic field but yeah so I'll tell you like I'm I'm a kid I'm like eight years old there's a neighborhood bully who's beaten the dog crap out of me in my front yard he's bigger than me stronger than me he's got me pinned down I'm on my back just smacking the crap out of me and I hear the screen door open on our house and I'm like my like my Dad's here my my heroes here he's coming to the rescue right and I hear I can't see him but I hear my dad behind me saying keep hitting him and I'm like wait a minute man keep hitting him and and the the bully like kind of like is is confused and my dad's like keep hitting him hit him like you hit him before I came out and the kid starts smacking me again and my dad's like Jerry you're gonna fight back are you gonna do something you're just gonna lay there and take a beating and I'm like Dad he's too big he's too strong right so the guy takes a few more blows gets up and the kid runs off he's like freaked out like his you know someone's father's watching him kick his son's ass right I remember my dad came over and he picked me up and my nose was bleeding and he's like you have to learn to fight back because if you don't you're gonna be a victim for the rest of your life there's always someone bigger and stronger out there than you you have to fight back no matter what like that was like like almost as an eight-year-old wow like I was turned wow I was like you know and my dad's like was my hero is my hero he's the best man I've ever known uh the best man I ever hoped to know um like all these lessons in life that like that was hard for him sure you know and he picked me up and he ruffled my hair and then he's like now let's go in and get some ice on that lip you know and it like for a dad man that's heart like it's hard to do super hard anybody that's that's got a kid sure like like now putting myself in in my Dad's shoes at that point I'm like that was really hard for him but that was like a like a teaching moment like hey I'm trying to I'm trying to raise like a a good man sure sure and do you and and did that did that change things the next time that that's something was it acute was that change is something getting ignited it changed in a in a in kind of in a bad way in that when I uh when I did punch back and when I did learn to fight back got carried away I I kind of liked it yeah I liked being on the other side of it and that's just as dangerous of course being uh like a bully's a bully good guy's side or bad boy side of course of course um and so it was a was there anything your old man did to kind of curb that in you like did he ever see that side of you did he ever did he ever ask you to pull back on that or get you to see yourself in a different way I I think that um what he saw and what he enjoyed is like when I became involved in sports sure the recklessness that that creates that's how you play sports especially when you're an underachiever especially or when you're undersized and under speed and and under strength like how do you make up like how do you compete against those people that have all these physical like gifts that you don't have you just you're reckless describe yourself as a receiver you know the the way that you describe yourself in in in in the book um I'd like to say on a much sort of smaller level not even closer it's exactly I used to describe myself as a receiver as being sort of an underachiever not the fastest not the strongest but that's actually a position that I think is usually sort of goes hand in hand with the glory or the fast guy you're burning them deep but you know the kind of receiver I I love crack back blocks I loved uh shortyard receptions yeah I love dragging people over to get that first down I love hitting people as that position can you sort of describe yourself as a football player yeah exactly that I I tried to make up for my shortcomings by just playing Wild playing Reckless trying to be Fearless I was never the guy who ran down the sidelines and and caught the ball over his shoulder and scored a touchdown and got a date with the prom queen right I was the guy who like ran the slant to get the first down so the other cat could catch the touchdown that's right but I was all I was super proud of that absolutely I knew what my role was it was not to be the star it was not to be uh like the glory guy my role was very defined and very specific and I embraced it and that's how I stayed on the field and how do you feel like you you carry that you know you're a star player in in high school that took you to University Arizona and played you know division one college football you know got got looks from the NFL I mean how did how did the mentality of football I know you're you're coaching today how did like how did football sort of shape you for your career and how did it what lessons did you learn from it yeah it's just it's such a I don't think there's any sport that teaches you life's lessons as well as football and all the things that come within and not just the sport not just the tactics and the techniques of it but the teamwork of it and and the coordination that it takes and like knowing your role and and understanding your hierarchy um in the process that that's and that's life yep that's you know football like like acting or producing a film like uh an undercover operation maintaining a just a relationship a personal relationship running a family a small business a big business we all have the same process this and look maybe we don't even really if you haven't thought about it we don't really understand it to be like the people that are truly successful in life the highest Achievers are the best problem solvers that's right so whatever is in front of you identify whatever that objective is what's the mission what's the goal then the next step is communication with the people around you open transparent communication worry exchanging ideas when you do that you build trust because you because now you're part of a team and then with all those things in line now you can go solve whatever problem X is whether it's in your relationship whether it's boy girl stuff whether it's managing kids or a wife or a husband making a movie running undercover operation small business big businesses like our process is the same and like if you don't think about it like all of us spend our entire day solving problems that's right that's right and the people that are are super high Achievers are really good at it and and I and you know you're talking you the way that you're sort of uh able to put that now is coming from a place of just being an enormously High achiever yourself and looking back on this sort of unparalleled career but I I'm really interested in the guy like before you went into the ATF before you decided to become an undercover operative you know there's a level like you use the word recklessness right like I I like to think of that um it's what attracts me again in a much different sort of way to the acting look man again there's no words for the life that you you've lived and I guess I'm really interested you know in this guy who decides to to to to make a life of uh being an undercover operative in the most dangerous of situations where were you sort of like with violence and recklessness at that point in your life well you know I'll tell you uh the honest truth is I'm very much a common man who's been placed in uncommon situations and then just done the best I could in that situation um found some success at times and failed Stakes a lot of times too yeah um you know if and if we don't talk about the mistakes and if we don't talk about the failures then then there's then what I say doesn't have credibility agreed if all we do is like tell Hero Stories and Pat myself on the back totally um and try to uh like build upon some uh myth then it's all counterfeit but but what makes it I mean what what were you hungry for you know this decision to go into the ATF and go into this world and wanting to be into like what was it about that that was you know drawing you in the uh the Intrigue of it the challenge uh like the kind of the one-on-one challenge the competition of it undercover work you're in competition it's a competition of you versus either uh the the suspect you're working on the group you're working on yeah you're competing with them and they're competing against you yeah um the criminal Community is uniquely paranoid and they have to be because that's how they stay stay out of prison they don't trust you they don't like strangers and so there's a competition there you're TR like I'm trying to sell myself sure it's it's it's Jordan Belfort it's it's Wolf of Wall Street sell me this pen sure well I'm the pen yeah like I'm selling you yep like trust me believe you don't know me you don't have any experience with me you didn't grow up with me sell me your drugs sell me your guns sell me your bombs involve me in your home invasion scheme hire me to do the murder you want done selling me yep yep and building that credibility it's all about building that is basically your coat of armor right like that is how you do that and is admitting your failures is that part of building your credibility is is being exactly who you are I I mean I really want to talk about you know how you work with Ci's and how you how you sort of like build this this this this role but um you know look man I mean you're one of your first outings out there you you you got shot right and and uh can you take us through that story and I know you don't want to just tell Hero Stories but that I'm it's a crazy [ __ ] story so and I'm going to tie this to uh to your to your HBO show right now there's a there's a tie in here right please uh until we own the city love it um I got hired on a Monday 1987. I I I was a failed athlete I'd like I I had always planned on playing in the NFL yep um and then I I never had a plan B I never planned for anything other than that because that's what I was going to do well you know it turns out like dude you ain't good enough to play in the NFL right so you like so now you're left like a lot of young people now what right so at the time this is mid 80s Miami Vice was popular and as an audience we had never seen a cop show like that right we had seen all the procedurals detectives responding reactively to crime scenes doing interviews patrolmen right and then all of a sudden Sonny Crockett shows up on the scene got the Hugo Boss on he's riding a Lambo around South Beach right and he's he's going into these mansions and he's meeting with these glamorous kingpins and there's a ton of cocaine out on some barge in the harbor and he's got these like stripper models bringing them Mojitos right and I'm like man I like that seems pretty cool yeah yeah right so the reality of it is what I found the reality is that that Lamborghini it was like a Beatdown Monte Carlo sure right and the Hugo Boss suit was like cut off camos and a wife beater t-shirt and flip-flops right the the Kingpin that's that Sonny Crockett was dealing with was some like broke dick dude who didn't have two nickels to rub together that was sitting at the end of the bar with his plumber's crack hanging out here right the ton of cocaine it was an eight ball that was so stepped on with baby likes it if you'd [ __ ] before you'd get high off of it right and then the the the stripper models that like you see on TV that are like running with these cats they're like straight skanks with like three teeth in their head and tits like sweat socks with rocks in the toes and so when I when I experienced it and it was so much different than what Hollywood had sold me on sure sure I [ __ ] loved it every day man every day I loved it it wasn't glamorous undercover work is a nasty dirty bloody vomit-covered scab of a life and when I realized that I still loved it yeah yeah and what was it that you loved I love the challenge of the competition of it I loved how dirty it was I didn't have to be the guy with the gold chains and the Rolex and all the and all the you know driving the the Ferrari like I I didn't care I'd show up like on a bicycle for deals ride ride a bike because that's that's how some of those cats roll how early in their career was that that that that first event where you got wounded that well so like I get hired on a Monday yeah right so I actually was out here in Los Angeles got sworn in and I told my supervisors I want to work undercover I came to work undercover sure so supervisor digs in his desk and he hands me a cassette tape and some headphones and all it said on it was Marty right so I plug it in and I'm listening what it was was the audio recording of a Baltimore City Baltimore Police Department narcotics officer named Marcellus Ward Marty Ward holy [ __ ] who Marty in December of 1984 was in an undercover deal with a heroin dealer and was shot like five or six times point blank in a drug dealer's apartment and Marty in Baltimore in Baltimore and Marty dies on tape Marty like Marty dies with his boys trying to rescue him until you hear him die right so so guys shot him left and then you hear his backup unit come in trying to save him yeah and it is dude I'll send you the recording it's it it's it's it's hard yeah it's hard to listen to right so I come out I'm listening to tape my my boss is like hey man you still want to work undercover I'm like yeah man this dude's a freaking hero like I'm not I'm not gonna die doing it but right so four days later I get I get hired I want to work undercover they make me listen to the Marty tape they're trying to like hey dude you need to know what you're getting into right four days later I get taken hostage and shot um the bullet went in my back it went in uh between my uh can you just how did you get how did you get taken hostage so actually it's there's there's so many stories and backstories to everything right I know I know so so like I'm brand new and like I've I haven't been to the academy I don't have any training um I I wasn't a street guy right so I'm like on the the outer tertiary like most distant perimeter of this arrest operation sure the suspect shows up he shows up on a motorcycle gets off his motorcycle parks in front of his house starts walking in all the units all the all the surveillance units start swooping in on them to um to make the arrest sure well he he takes off he takes off running and so I'm like I'm in so far in the distance like I'm supposed to just be staying out of the out of the work right I see the cat running while I start running right so like I was I wasn't fast enough to play in the NFL I was slow but I was freaking yeah yeah I was uh Usain Bolt in Copland right so I start like I'm passing dudes and chasing we're running through the neighborhood and he's Serpentine and zigzagging yeah and I and I lose the dude he vanishes he knows where he's at I don't know where he's at yeah um short time later like we're we're just kind of searching creeping for the dude are you still do you still have your guys around you or they're like we're all spreading okay right so everybody's like you know there's like no one's really nearby or close um and the dude was hiding man and he popped up and and Drew down on me and I like I had my gun and he was like [ __ ] I will [ __ ] kill you where you stand right and I'm like you know I don't remember seeing this uh episode of my advice right right the Dude Gets behind me puts the gun to my head and and he puts his gun to your head right and he says I'll kill you where you're saying has anybody ever said that to you in your life that had anybody drawn a gun on you before in your life no so now there's a gun at your head what do you feel what are you feeling man well like I didn't have uh like those types of life experiences to refer back to like okay what do I do now right but there but there is a sports element to it there is a like a football element to it things are breaking bad there's chaos there's Panic man you're losing the game you don't help yourself by becoming hysterical right you find your you find your Zen you find a sense of calm and you try to like let your computer run you know I mean have you ever seen anyone else with that little experience go to that place I mean I I mean I imagine it's like you were specifically wired that way both you know for football you know the blood that your your mom and dad put in you you know I mean not most people most people get a gun to their head like that and I mean they're pissing their pants right they're not getting tactical you got you took a breath and got tactical and again it's not hero worship nothing like that I'm just wondering what is going through your your head I mean a gun was once put up put you know put to my head once in in Russia and and I knew into I felt like I was this but like I I immediately turned into a book I was literally like you I I'm here for you I'll do whatever you want I'm just wondering what went through your because I I look I know this story I want you to tell the rest of the story but like how do you go tactical at that point um because I mean you didn't have a ton of training right no I had no training but I think it's uh it's it's an inherent survival Instinct like like panic's gonna get me nowhere panic's gonna get me shot yeah like right now yep um in in any kind of situation like those life and death situations if you're talking if you're communicating you're alive you're still in the game yeah just keep moving right keep like keep thinking keep planning okay so what happens next so the dude uh has got the gun to my head and uh I talked about this old like like I thought I was coming out of the job to this Lamborghini right like this old Monte Carlo right that we used to show up there he stuffs me in the front seat of Monte Carlo he gets behind me and he's got the gun to my head um and he's like saying like go like get me out of here right like like he like he wanted to use me as his vehicle to escape the situation well now the other agents are starting to close in right so I'm thinking like you know what man this this probably has got a bad ending but like I'm not gonna drive this dude away from here with all these other agents all these other armed agents I'm not going to drive this dude away from here and and have him kick me out and execute me in the ditch 20 miles down the road you knew that that was what was going right I was like if this is going down it ain't it's going down and were you playing the the Audio I mean in your head I mean did you go back to the to the Baltimore undercover agent yeah yeah absolutely right I'd only heard that tape a couple days before right so it was like that that story was Super Fresh in my mind and and and Marty's demise and and oh right so sitting there and I'm sitting behind the wheel and I see a telephone pole like 30 yards up in front the first thing I thought is like I'm going to buckle my seat belt and I'm going to run us into that telephone pole as hard as I can get this car going as fast as I can get it going and that's that's gonna at least give me a chance right so I'm going to buckle my seat belt and the keys are in the ignition of the of the car and I'm like okay plan B man I pulled the keys out and I dropped them to the floorboard and he's screaming at me like let's go let's go let's you know he's he's he's he's uh he's messed up sir um and I reach forward to grab the keys and when I he tried to ride forward with me and the gun came off my head the gun actually moved to my back he's trying to stay with me and ride me right and he's holding the gun on my back and then everything breaks bad he fires around um hits me in the back goes through my lung narrowly misses my heart exits my chest and then that inspires like literally uh this lead and glass storm like that that you could only imagine in a movie right right it was like it was five or ten seconds I think like 20 or 25 rounds were fired into the car right into the into the compartment we were in um so I brought this because I because I knew that story would come up right [ __ ] so that hole right there that's where the bullet went in my back come on right and this hole right here that hole right there is where it came out of my came out of my chest wow right so like I said got hired on a Monday like this goes down four days later on a Thursday with the feds John we get paid every two weeks I didn't even gotten a paycheck yet huh I didn't get if I comp him this one this was on the house man this was like a test drive like Hey man can I try can I come back tomorrow right and there was like I mean I'm laying in the dirt and dog crap of this trailer park and there's blood coming out of my chest like you're holding your thumb over the end of a garden hose just squirting out and then they dragged the suspect out of the back of the car because he I mean they ventilated this dude um his eyes are rolled back he's already got the death rattle going and um so they pushed me now into the back seat of this car and I'm like and I'm I'm in bad shape myself yeah and so the same card that the shooting took place in we take off for the hospital and so like and my boss was driving who was like a good experienced like old school cop and he's driving and hauling ass and he's looking over his shoulder into the back seat like hang on hang he's called everybody Bubba hang on bubba hang on bubba stay with me Bubba and then he's driving and driving and driving and he's like man do you know your way do you know the way to the hospital because we're down here and I'm like free I got blood gushing out of my chest and like glasses all in me right and I'm like like my ears are bleeding and I [ __ ] so but you know what um it has a really it has a really happy ending it has a good ending actually the the trauma surgeon that that operated on me is a guy named Dr Richard Carmona okay um and he was this young like super hot shot trauma surgeon right so he patches me up he saves my life Dr Carmona ultimately becomes the Surgeon General of the United States under President Bush well um and is just is a is a a remarkable amazing man amazing life's experiences wow um so like like what's the chance that this Hall goes down and then I land in the hands trauma surgeon on the planet yeah right there's like more to do there's always a silver lining yeah yeah yeah and then and then the decision I mean just because I I I gotta ask was there any doubt I mean was there was there any like I don't know if this is for me like what like I mean you you jump right back in correct well so I'm in the hospital and I'm and I'm recovering and like the uh the ambulance Chaser attorneys are lining up like it's like uh like trying to return something at Home Depot like hey take a number man I'm now serving number 17. right they were all taking their turn and they were coming in saying dude you haven't been trained that the government the agency has assumed a huge amount of liability for allowing this to happen to you how much money do you want and I'm like like I mean I grew up in a blue collar house man my dad was a carpenter right and my mom was a house cleaner right um they're like you ever seen five million dollars wow and I'm like no yeah how about 10 million dollars you know what that looks like I can get you money that's generational money like you'll never have to work another day in your life neither will your kids or their kids right right um like like your family will be taken care of forever and all I could think of was like like get out like there's no there's no cop who ever took a badge in a gun thinking that they were going to get rich right thinking that they were gonna you take it for other reasons right right and and so the money the money set like now at 60 I'm thinking like man you know what 35 years ago man I could have done a lot of money with a lot with that money over 35 years right but at the time I was like man get like all I wanted to do was get back to work I I understand the honor in that and I I understand but but what was driving you like if you could if you could Whittle it down to one thing like what was what was the desire to get back to work what was the desire because I mean you still need to learn this trade yeah and you basically have suffered at this point pretty much the worst I mean I would imagine losing a partner or losing somebody would be right but but I mean you know you you kind of face the ultimate what was it that was driving you to get into that I mean was it this this oath that you took was it you really want to catch bad guys I mean you talked about Miami but like what was it failure yeah I'd failed did you look at that day as a failure yep you did how so um the fact that I was brand new um that like by my own mistakes by my own errors in judgment by my own inability to assess risk I had I had created the situation no one asked me to come off the perimeter and chase this cat down right so I felt like I was embarrassed wow I was um Beyond embarrassed I was humiliated wow like I was the um I was the joke at the water cooler hey man did you hear about this dude in Tucson he was on the job four days and he almost got smoked freaking had a through and through like it was humiliating how how common is it for uh an undercover agent or or or you know whatever it was that you were doing at that point I mean I think there's like a real misconception about sort of the dangers that are out I mean how common is it for for an officer like that to get shot um well in today's world versus like 1987 it was very uncommon in today's world every day we're reading about some cop getting shot and and not like on its on a drug deal we're talking about dudes getting sniped getting ambushed right getting uh getting squared off on traffic standing it's almost like the patrolmen are it's like the most dangerous job now yeah it's it's yeah it's never been harder to be a cop than it is right now so when you go back in then is there a new commitment to training I mean is that sort of like is that what the next stage of your life is is it just like train your ass off I knew I could do it but um like so like my my previous plan a was to play professional football play in the NFL right fail didn't make it didn't achieve it go to plan B right off the bat fail I'm like man like I gotta break this cycle 99.9 of people would say Hey [ __ ] man I I played four years you know University of Arizona I got you know NFL looks like that that doesn't sound like a failure to me but but but but what about you made it look that way just because your mindset was I'm going all the way with this yeah and I think that like just my personality is I'm I'm self-critical um I do you think you need to be self-critical in order to be successful I I personally do yeah me too um I I am very rarely pleased or satisfied with anything I accomplished and I always find the mistake or the flaw or the error um is that good or bad man I don't know I'll tell you what like I think we both know people that uh uh achieve on a marginal level and they'll tell you how amazing they are and how fabulous they are and they'll Pat themselves on the back um and some of them actually seem pretty happy sometimes I'm like well [ __ ] man maybe I ought to just do that man they're [ __ ] enjoying the weekends while I'm working you know what I mean they're with their kids and [ __ ] living life you know yeah I I get it I get it and so so you know I just want to go I I mean I know then you know the next 20 years of your life are dedicated to this you don't just sort of unparalleled un uh undercover career and obviously you know most of the notoriety it goes to what you did with the Hell's Angels but I mean there were so many criminals that and so many criminal you know Enterprises that you infiltrated and I guess I'm wondering like you know we talked a little bit about like building credibility and I really I'm really really interested in that like how you do that and how you did that and so basically because I know when you kind of came onto the Angels task you you know you weren't really a motorcycle gang guy right like you were basically you had this role right you were like a hit man like like what was I was not the right choice when the uh when the opportunity came to work the Hell's Angels case the case agent approached me and said hey I want you to lead this undercover operation and my first response was I can name 10 guys off the top of my head who will serve this role for you better than I will um they were guys who that was what they focused on that's what their expertise was they were um they they had built themselves and and their experience towards that I hadn't meaning they had spent the bulk of their career sort of in The Outlaw Biker communities they already had connections in those communities exactly what were what was your where were you at at that point like what was your guy I was like and I recycled this cover story over and over I was just this white trash Peckerwood debt collector gun Runner uh quasi-hit man at times um and like I could recycle that over and over and over again I could play that and make it I could sell it I don't care if you're a white collar guy on Wall Street or if you were uh pushing everything you own in a shopping cart like I could find a way to make that fit and sell it to what you needed in the criminal world and how do you sell it like um like well first of all like and and and you know this from like probably from your early days when you had to audition for films right when you had to go read when you're trying to get started you get one chance at a first impression that's it and you better hit it um now if you don't make a good first impression are you dead in the water probably not but now you've put yourself behind the eight ball man now you got to recover just get back to even right can you think of a time where you feel like you didn't make a good first impression oh um when I didn't make a good first impression probably with my wife right put myself behind the eight ball and had to make it come back you know it's all of our stories out there if you've got your eyes set on something you will keep going straight up bro straight up but but I I guess what I'm wondering is like this this character Jaybird David like is that who he was like was he a specific guy like how well did you know this guy that you were playing there's in my experience there's three types of like undercover uh operators that like are the high-end guys I'm not talking about like drive through the park and put your hand out and some kid's gonna drop a crack rock and like like like to anybody right right there's a there's the actors who like put on a costume whatever that role is and they inherit that Persona and they're acting through it then there's but that's mostly used for like sort of street level I'm doing this today to achieve this today not building a Persona in order if I meet this guy he tells this guy then you get to meet that guy you're finally going to get to your target right which is a much different level yeah so there's there's people that just like they almost put on a costume and inherit that they they start acting in that role then there's like the Hustler who we all know who's just like like a used car salesman you sell anybody anything man he's the guy that can sell ice to Eskimos on and he's just and he's always on the hustle yeah right and then there's like somewhere in between there is just the naturals and I like I I consider myself in that what you see is what you get um I didn't I didn't pretend to be something I wasn't um I I didn't communicate with people I was working on or against any different than I'm talking to you sure like and and you might like me or you might not like me but like but I'm not acting and I'm not pretending to be uh something I'm not this is just who I am so the the key in undercover work is like what value can you bring to whoever it is that you're targeting if if like for the Hell's Angels there's a million dudes who have Harleys that are sitting at the bar at the at the end of the bar with long hair and earrings and Tattoos who would cut off an arm to wear a Hell's Angels patch they're not interested in those dudes because there's a million of those guys what's your value what do you bring to the table can you make money can you earn can you enforce can you intimidate you know like like what level of violence are you comfortable with all those things that come into play that ended up like in the Hell's Angels example of trying to make myself valuable to him was the focus on the Hell's Angels at that time was that because of the big shootout with the Mongols is that sort of like what is that what's kind of sparked that that major interest or was there has there always been there was two main events that really inspired that case like really getting Steam uh the Hells Angels Mongols riot at the Harrah's Casino in Laughlin um and uh the Hells Angels in Mesa had murdered uh a woman an innocent woman they they was in their clubhouse right yeah they basically recruited her off the street to come to a party the party got out of hand uh she mouthed off in the wrong place at the wrong time man you don't talk [ __ ] on these dudes in their Clubhouse and you don't insult you don't insult them um she took a beating in the Mesa Clubhouse they beat her down um and then they stuffed her in the trunk of a car and drove her from Mesa out to Apache Junction Arizona which is further east and cut her head off um so that body was recovered and that that there was a tie to the Hell's Angels then with the riot then it was like look like we got to do something the riot was super inspiring because it took place in a public venue so like gang on gang violence and and when they keep it within their world like how much can you contain that or control that these guys are gonna fight man they're gonna get it on right but when it spills into the public when it spills into a venue where there's Common Man citizen there it's it's hard to ignore and so for you I mean and you got to know very well a lot of the people involved in both of those situations and I guess you know when we go back into building credibility and and you and your team you know you guys you guys uh you you know kind of join the ranks of this this Nomad biker gang and then when you finally make this approach to the angels you know and you talk about building this credibility and building this I mean you you guys have this whole you know you guys were your own motorcycle club like how how do you go about building that what are the tools that you need to do that yeah well like I said like we couldn't just show up and be like uh the Common Man Average Joe coming off the street like you don't knock on these dudes front door and ask for an application right it doesn't work that way right right so my coverage I used the cover story I'd always used um I was a gun Runner I could make that make sense to them how do you make that make sense to him I uh I obtain uh guns in Arizona cross them into the Border in Mexico where they're worth 10 times as much where the cartels will pay 10 times as much for that gun it's reverse drug trafficking right it's it's it's is that solution today absolutely absolutely makes sense to them like yeah that you know uh that was easy um I used my debt collector roll like I've always got money I've always got jobs I've always got work I've got money in my pocket I'm not a guy that you're gonna have to float yep um and then that like the the the culmination of that like the violence aspect to it like I started getting solicited to do murders right um because like I never sold myself as a hit man I never told one of those dudes like hey man I kill yeah I'm a contract killer I kill people for money they assume based on my Persona how I carried myself my cover story and then the experience they had with me like this guy I'll kill someone yeah you know get approached for it like hey I'm gonna take this dude out well you know and and you also you have to do a lot of work with criminal informants and and and and I just I'm just wondering a big part of what you do I guess what I'm trying to get at a big part of what you do I imagine is you got to get close to people and you got to form like real honest genuine relationships with them and I you know this guy Pops I know you guys got like enormously close news and I'm just I'm just wondering you know you probably had to get close really close with people who repulsed you and who you were disgusted by and I imagine you also got close with people that you genuinely liked and cared for and you genuinely saw like a level of decency in it whether they're a criminal or not I'm wondering if you can give me sort of like an example of both of those yeah you're um so so you're presenting this false Persona of who you are to people and and right off the bat you're lying to them um but you can never Undercover out of the human factor um so you're you're actually you have people targeted and and for various reasons but they're ultimately they're still human beings and so like in the Hell's Angels case for example every second of every day wasn't spent in some kind of criminal activity with these guys so they would be you know running their scheme or doing whatever they're doing and you see that and you become a witness to that but you're also spending down time with them social time sure in their homes in their living rooms holding their babies that's it eating with them yeah sleeping at their house have their sleeping at your house shooting pool with them drinking beer with them like just and you see like these redeeming qualities in their personalities and give me an example um just guys that like you run around with and you're like man like I like this guy and you know what if someone came in here and uh busted a bottle on the back of my head this dude would be throwing down for me that's right right like like don't you build those real relationships um the problem is is God does not build us to inherently plan on betraying someone and in undercover work you know from the very beginning like I'm going to try to make a good first impression I'm going to try to gain your trust I'm going to gain your loyalty ultimately in some cases I'm going to gain your love and no one in the back of your head and as I'm building this man I am gonna it's gonna be a bad day for you man ultimately because I am going to betray you yeah and and I find that so interesting you you talked about how you were sort of like this pit bull dog and your your sort of superior who is kind of running the show how to kind of hold you back a little bit and I'm wondering it's like how do you how did you manage to have I mean you have so many things going at once right like you have this burning desire to take these guys down but at the same time you're also getting in some cases extraordinarily close with them and finding things that you bond with things that you respect about them sometimes you love some of these guys but at the same time you're also trying to maintain your own real love for for for for your family and preserving them the job in the oath that you took and and I can only imagine I mean I'm obviously that that sounds [ __ ] insanely stressful whatever but I mean sure I'm just wondering like how do you how do you maintain the real you do you maintain the real you is it compartmentalization like how does that work well we've hit on this uh topic a couple times uh I failed at that um that's probably my my biggest regret my biggest humiliation or embarrassment is that I I was in this undercover role for for so long for such an extended period of time like well before and and Beyond the Hell's Angels case that Jaber Davis the gun Runner debt collector Hitman stopped becoming what I did for a living and it started becoming who I was but wasn't but but that was necessary correct in in order to accomplish what you accomplished well and and and that was at least that was my my defense to myself and to my wife yep I was like you know what people that treat this as a gimmick people that treat what I do as a hobby end up dead right I have to be all in I 100 percent because I'm going to get killed if I'm not right I I had an argument with my wife one point I came home I'd been away from the house for an extended period of time I walk in like like Jaybird Davis walks into my house right and she's like you cannot be gone and come here and treat me and our kids and talk to us like we're Street people and I was like I'm not a light switch I can't turn this on and off and she's like well when you come to this house you better install a dimmer and dial that attitude down or don't come back straight up and and that was like I was super pissed off about that I was like don't you know I'm saving the world don't you know I'm doing all these amazing things and like and you're going to give me [ __ ] for it she was exactly right she was 100 Justified but you know it's it's such a I I guess uh because I know how committed you are to your family I I see your relationship and I just in two seconds and I I uh and what you said about like chasing that eight ball and making up for last night it's such a it's such a I think a meditation on fatherhood to begin with because I just know through your book you know you talked about all these kids that you would sort of come upon in the field you'd go into these houses where people are doing meth and they're they're [ __ ] right in front of their kids they're selling drugs in front of their kids there's violence right in front of these kids and you're seeing these these young girls that are being tossed around you're thinking of your own daughter and like you know I I really believe look man for me in this world first and foremost I'm a dad I'm a father and I'm a husband that is my primary that is that is my my North Star right and there's times where I have to say you know and but the bottom line is and I think this is true for guys who are locked up I think this is true for guys who are overseas I think it's true for guys who for whatever reason they walked away they walked away I feel like that love that that that bond is always there and you always have a relationship with it and and your North Star is how healthy that relationship is and there's always a way and I guess it it seems to me like it was always present your son gave you that rock you kept that rock with you you know like what like I brought I brought it you tell that story that's who you are I mean it's a clear and I guess like what lessons on fatherhood did this whole chapter in your life teach you it's it's it's gonna sound my answers are gonna sound like like kind of pathetic almost or like like I'm seeking Compassion or sympathy and I'm not because all the decisions I made I made [ __ ] no one made them for me I own all of them yep but it keeps coming back to this element of uh failure or perceived failure like you talked about like above all you're grounded in your wife and your kids right like I lost that man they weren't the most important thing to me um like I think inherently like I'm selfish that's a very unflattering thing to say about yourself I made decisions for me about me what was good for me what I wanted to do and I didn't think about my wife and I didn't think about my kids you're like along for the right and I and I settled that in my head because I was giving them I was providing them a comfortable life they had a nice house they had food they had clothes they went to good schools you know my wife had had a good car to drive they didn't have to worry about money like I balanced that by saying like you're like I'm giving you a comfortable life but I wasn't giving them presents sure I wasn't giving them I I wasn't there right I was like I was buying my family I was I was paying for my family by giving them things and I thought like like somehow that was like love or that was a real relationship and that I mean that's you know like we're like we're talking to an audience like I don't like I don't know the people out there that's a pretty humiliating thing to say about yourself but like we said earlier if I don't if I if I'm not if I don't come clean yeah like I'm counterfeit then yeah yeah yeah I mean and also can't do nothing about nothing until you admit that it's there I mean you you'll never address a problem unless you look at it right well you're like literally when you're like I was constantly pushing the envelope and I did everything as hard and as fast and as long as I could and then when the operation was done like then the fun time came and I partied as hard and as fast and as long as I could and I like I pushed I pushed the envelope every day on everything and and my relationships and so you know like I retired eight years ago and like the saying like uh it's better to burn out than fade away I did both I burned out and faded away I spent so much time on my couch now I've been reupholstered twice what is your relationship with the kids like now it's it's really good I bet um and my relationship with Gwen is really good I can see that um but I'll tell you what of no credit to me I did every single thing I could direct that um there was countless times where I should have came home and all my clothes should have been in the front yard and the lock should have been changed I made a million mistakes with Gwen and my kids and I'm blessed that they've given me a million and one second chances to fix it beautiful um and so I'm trying to take that one chance yep and trying to like see if I can finally like on the back half of my life maybe get it right because I spent the first half of my life getting everything wrong and when you when you say that you know you were like pushing the envelope in all areas again do you feel like that was necessary and in order to you know especially when you were is that the rock it is wow wow can you tell the story of that rock so during the course like so my kids never knew me as anything other than an undercover agent they were born into it like Gwen had a chance man she knew what I was doing before we got married so like like she had the opportunity to say no the kids never had an opportunity to say no right so like well before the Hell's Angels case through the Hell's Angels case I'd be gone for extended period of time you know smoking and Joe can come home um and I did the bare minimum I had to to keep my family functioning I'd mow the grass pay the bills Pat the kids on the head have a cup of coffee with Gwen couldn't wait to get back out because I loved being in gangster land what did you ever thrived I just loved um like the risk of it the challenge of it how Dynamic it was how dangerous it was um that like pushing the envelope right all the time so every time I'd come home and then get ready to leave my son who was little at time like 8 10. run out in the yard and say Dad don't leave yet like I got something for you and he'd come and he'd bring me a rock out of the yard and hundreds of times I had these rocks I I kept I kept Jackie's rocks I kept one in my pocket at all times I had them in the saddlebags my motorcycle my undercover car my undercover house these good luck charms right this kid was giving me these good luck charms I started handing them out to my partners on the task force I was like I don't know like what kind of blessing or Charm this kid has put trust me but like the violence is swirling around us eight or ten murders took place during that case like all around us friends of mine people that I was working on I was like like please hang on to this rock right so the last big operation we're getting ready to kind of wrap the case up and we're gonna go fake this murder right and I'm getting ready to leave and I tell Jackie like I'll I'm almost done and don't leave yet Dad don't leave yet and he brings me this rock right and he and he and it's this rock it's the the one he the the one that I keep with me and he says I've been saving this one for you it's special it's shaped like a heart and so like I'm a 40 year old dad and I'm trying to comfort like this 10 year old boy and I said all the things that I have been neglecting with you I'm gonna fix I'm gonna get done with this and I'm gonna come home and we're gonna play catch and we're gonna ride bikes and we're gonna wrestle we're going to swim and go to the movies right and I said it's all because of your rocks dude these good luck charms and I'm like they work so good I've been giving them to all my partners and this little boy standing on my driveway and Tears start running down his cheeks he's standing there no shirt no shoes and he's like those were not good luck charms and you shouldn't have given them to anybody they were just for you they were only for you Dad and so like I'm like trying to figure out like for years I thought he'd been giving me good luck charms and he's like that's for you to put in your pocket and every time you think someone's gonna hurt you you could put your hand in there and touch it and that would be like me being there to help you fight him wow and that was like that was the worst day and the best day of my life the worst day is that a 10 year old boy had to teach his 40 year old father what my job was the best day was that my ten-year-old son taught me what my job was um and so man I put a huge amount of battle damage on my phone that's what I did to my kids yeah all because what because I wanted to be Donnie Brasco part two um for what and then you leave no one cares no one remembers you no one remembers the cases you know you like you you you retire and the next day like the people on your task force are arguing over the stapler on your desk who gets it that's that's how important you are right right and then you know ultimately this this this this case is like brought against these guys there's got to be some feeling of like deep satisfaction there's gotta like what what is that what so uh so I I go through this dispute with my agency after the after the case right and I felt like uh the threats that we had faced that me and my family faced that weren't addressed I felt super betrayed by that sure right um and I was upset by it and then like the light bulb went off one day and my head cleared and I'm like dude like that was your karma man you had it coming you betrayed your family you betrayed your wife and your kids for this job think about all the people over 27 years that you had investigated that you won their love and you betrayed them like how you how does that feel man how you like that and you know when it happened to me I didn't like it very much and and and so once again you looked at this like again what many would look at is this like massive achievement or whatever but you looked in your life you looked at the parts that didn't work you looked at the parts that were failure how can I correct this first of all these people that you won the love of and and you betrayed them the the the these these criminals that you ended up bringing down or whatever that is can you talk about somebody specific that you felt really bad about that that that that that that that you came to love that that ultimately you brought down you know like like I can kind of squeeze that into one story right so we let go we spend two years with these guys and and make hundreds of them right and indicted 55 people 16 of mon Rico we indicted the guys that had beheaded Cynthia Garcia um so I'm briefing the SWAT team I'm briefing The Raid team for the for the takedown and in the process I'm talking about the different characters that they're going to be hunting and where they're going to be and how violent they are yeah of course and so in it I'm like hey when you hit JoJo right right like man like the dude's a pretty decent dude right like like like look I know you got to take him down yeah but like like like this dude easy right yep now Jimmy when you hit his house beat his [ __ ] balls off right because he's a [ __ ] [ __ ] yeah and what and can you can you describe that line like what is it why what made him an [ __ ] what made you love you well probably no different than probably some of them felt about me but it's like you you put a group of people together and there's some people you click with there's other people you don't so um the people that I disliked probably had I'm sure had people that absolutely adored them the people that I liked probably had Arch enemies sure um it was just like the chemistry that I had with certain people whether it be good or bad was my chemistry I guess the reason why I ask is you know there's there's a lot of folks that I've become really close with and some folks that we've had on the show who who spent a lot of time in law enforcement not in the capacity that that you have for these prolonged undercover these these huge operations that you've been on but one thing that I hear over and over again from from from from folks in law enforcement especially when we start to talk about you know this kind of anti-police movement that's kind of taking over the country recently and and and and all of the videos that we're seeing about police brutality and how it's like changing the course of policing and one thing that I hear from from a lot of great cops and guys I really respect is you can't make it personal like it's business you can't make it personal when you start making it personal that's not bad [ __ ] but I think like in your case what's so [ __ ] astounding to me is like making it personal is kind of everything for you right like you've gotta like making it personal is also like your armor like you're not get these [ __ ] no one's getting close to Hell's Angels clubhouses you're going to New York City you're making a few phone calls you're in there [ __ ] an ATF agent you're in there like I talked to melchancy today as we were talking today is one of the most feared Hells Angels in history Mr 187 and he was just like what you were able to do was like [ __ ] unprecedent and he said by the way he's like he they would have never been able to do it to us he was like he's like you're able to talk to talk walk the walk you always had money on you you would say you're gonna do something you're gonna do it when violence came up you threw hands you were like down to like you and and he said that like look man like they you said you guys [ __ ] killed a Mongol and you showed pictures of it like you know what Mel said is I guess in the Hell's Angels in order to even think about getting patched in it's got to be you got to know somebody for five years you know yeah they said what you did was unprecedented and I imagine it's because you were able to form these personal relationships and I guess what I'm so you know you had to make this personal correct yeah I I absolutely it's it's got to be personal it's got to be important to you um but on the other side of that like so operationally it's very personal right but then at some point the these people that you've grown to to at least like right are sitting on the sidewalk in front of their house with their hands cuffed behind their back right you have created I've created the very worst day ever in that person's life and I'm responsible for it and there I am standing in front of them um then the personal side comes off I never mocked anybody over the course of my career I never said like I got you see how's that feel I tricked you you fell for it you bought it not one time what is the main emotion I was the dude who was like dude man you know what today is a freaking terrible day for you man but like it can be a great day like you like maybe this is what you needed Mel Chansey right no better example maybe this is what you needed to get right like man like so they're sitting there and they're pissed off and they hate me right they want to just rip my throat out like dude can I get you a cigarette man putting a cigarette in their mouth and and moving it in them out of their mouth so they can take a drag do you need some water let me get you a bottle of water those small little elements of humanity and compassion like I've had people that I've that I've arrested that said you know what man I didn't like you but you always treated me good that's right you always treated me like and I think that's the key for any of us men treat people the way you want to be treated in anything right right and I feel like that's like these great you you you know these these great cops that I've I've gotten to know and love over the years it's like they all have what you're talking about it's like empathy man it's like hey man therefore the grace of God go on man like I could be in that situation and there is this fine line and there's at the end of the day man we're all playing the cards that were dealt there was less just sort of forces separating us say you're on this side you're on this side I mean the way that you were able to ultimately get these guys off the street at a time in their life where they were causing horrible horrible [ __ ] things the way you were doing it was to be able to say hey man I open my heart up to you well you know we're both friends with Mel chances like I cannot think of a better example I mean that dude was the most dangerous cat on the Planet meant and legit and feared like by everyone and and he earned that like like that wasn't just because he was bigger than everybody or like like he Mel earned his reputation yeah um and then he has a downturn he gets caught up in it right and he realized uh like probably through that downturn that God had a bigger plan from him absolutely and that he could not fulfill that plan living in a steel cage and eating bologna sandwiches and lime Jello for the rest of his life he had to escape that and now look at like what he's doing with his life and how he's changing the world and how he's inspiring people towards God it's incredible like how do you not love that how do you not he and like he talks about you he like loves you you know he loves the guy he loves Bayless you know like he lo you know and and and and I guess with that you know like what does it say about criminality in general you know something else in your book that that really hit me man was uh you know you you know I think it was about that pops but it was about like sea eyes in general criminal informants and that you said that you know you're really going to folks and you're offering them a chance to do something different like to to to to to have a different kind of purpose and then a lot of these guys either haven't had that opportunity or they're they're they're caught up in the what can you say sort about criminal informants in general and then what can you say sort of about criminality and folks playing the cards that they're looked I think we both know there's some folks that are just deranged and there's some folks that are just kind of led by a little bit of evil whatever that is but what can you say about sort of the common criminal and is there is there another path is there another path in just sort of like targeting them taking them out and incarcerating them like what do you think about that well I think that uh a lot of times they end up in the situations they are because they're so desperate they can't even hope for Hope anymore like hope has escaped them hope isn't anything that factors in anymore um and when you're hopeless what do you care you're going to do whatever it is you do you know like now a lot of them are looking for a sense of belonging to something there's something missing in their life and that in that social aspect of life um like just like taking it down to street gangs like a lot of these uh these gang members don't have fathers at home that gang is their father that gang provides them that that grounding that a dad does um there's Hell's Angels that like for different reasons they wanted to belong to a family and now if you if you love that world and the family that is inviting you in is a family that carries with it intimidation and power and respect and now by putting that patch on your back like like Joe nobody all of a sudden you walk in a bar and people are moving out of your way people want to buy you drinks people want to give you drugs girls want to hang on you when without that patch you're invisible man that's that sounds pretty powerful yes sir like it's it's it's not it doesn't matter if I agree with it or not I understand it sure like like who like who doesn't want that sure sure right and that's the that's the view yeah dude like straight up rock stars in their world yep like the way they're treated and the way they're admired um no doubt yep yep and and you know you alluded to it a little bit before but I just you know I I want to just talk briefly about like kind of the Betrayal that you felt from the from the agency in general and like kind of walk us through that your home was burned down correct and and um you know the Hell's Angels and then through MS-13 and Aryan Brotherhood like you had green lights on you and and hits I mean what the [ __ ] is that like man I mean what it like uh the worst part of of that entire event was that I had brought that world uh down on my family I can't imagine um and and the the the code was broken and it like like it wasn't just about me anymore it was like hurting me there was there was uh comments made to me like dude like we know how to hurt you and it ain't putting a hole in you it ain't shooting you dude it's freaking hurting your family like like any of us like any like so how are those messages delivered to you oh so many different ways like like I had first hand face-to-face conversations um the the infiltration case ends and then my true uh identity like who they thought to be jber Davis turns out to be Jay Dobbins instead of the the gun Runner debt collector turns out to be an ATF agent um so that the Angels issued contracts on me they were farmed out to the Aryan Brotherhood they were farmed out to the MS-13 18th Street picked one up here in Los Angeles um other uh side people came in in like like lone wolves who wanted to make their bones um there was a letter intercepted out of the prison by the guy that beheaded Cynthia Garcia that I helped locked up that said like why are you guys trying to like like shoot or stab this dude stick them with a AIDs contaminated needle man he's gonna go down and like we won't be held accountable for it same letter said you want to make this dude pay you really want to hurt him kidnap his wife and videotape her being gang raped and show it to him you want to hurt him that's how you hurt him threats to kidnap my kids off the bus so Jay how does that like what does that do to you man well the the first emotion when you when you see something like that uh it's it's uh it's it's pretty dangerous right because like I think all of us know like like how to solve that yep um and my frustration was when those threats started coming out that um I like I never one time said well the threats were proven to be credible and valid and reliable threats they were accurate threats but like my agency didn't want to investigate them they were just there was too many they were too massive they came to me and said dude you're on your own where would you like us to start would you like us to start with the Hell's Angels with the contracts you want to score the MS-13 how about if we start working on the ABS maybe we'll go talk to 18th Street what about this where do you want us to start like dude you're on your own it's too big we can't handle it even though you're you're at this point one of the most distinguished ATF agents of all time what do you mean you're on your own like I I don't that's that was that's how blunt it was put to me like you're on your own to solve this so I'm sitting there I'm like okay like I don't really have any resources I don't have the ability to go hide there's no witness security for law enforcement but I mean and how are you how are you living your day-to-day you know when you hear like are you are you constantly looking over your shoulder I mean what what what's the mindset looking over my shoulder paranoid like wanting help begging for help expecting help feeling like I'd earned or deserved help and not having it come what does this do with you and your wife like where where are you guys at you're not aware of the threats yeah and and um like like why like why she stuck it out I've I don't know because it would have been really easy for her to cut and run really easy for it too and you know like like so the agency doesn't that doesn't react and like so I get in a dispute with them like hey man you need to give me some help here right um so they doubled down on me and they unmask all my cover documents they they took all like all like my address had been hidden my my driver's registration all those things had been they made that all open source information that was now public record three months after that my house gets burned down and then no one comes to investigate the arson and then I find out behind uh behind closed doors dude you are the target of the arson I'm like what wait what they're like dude they've rented office space they've tasked they've manned a task force and they're recording your calls they're going to try to pin this arson on you so like when I talk about like we talked about earlier about the feelings of betrayal and like how I spent my life betraying people and how I felt like during the way I did my job I betrayed my family like I like I almost felt like like I had it coming I felt like dude you created this Karma like how do you like it again that same thing you're looking at something you did you're looking at your own failure you you're you're framing this because the only thing that you can change is sort of like making it your but this is you know and so the thing is though it's it sounds like I have this like like this bitterness about it I don't I love ATF I love the agents out there with their boots on the ground who are doing it the right way I ran in to a perfect storm of power corruption and arrogance and incompetence in a little window that all took care of each other that all protected each other and the trippy thing is the same people that were that were doing this to me at the exact same time are the people that were running atf's operation Fast and Furious and running thousands of assault weapons to the cartels wow which would have never been discovered had Brian Terry the border patrol agent not been murdered with one of the guns that ATF sent to the cartels that doesn't happen operation Fast and Furious never gets known about wow right same cats doing it at the same time they were um that they had insulated themselves and I guess it's the the saying uh can you just explain Fast and Furious for to people that don't don't know about it yeah operation Fast and Furious was this corrupt gun running investigation where ATF which is uh tasked with uh preventing Firearms trafficking in some kind of skewed like uh Twisted plan was allowing thousands of assault weapons to go directly to the cartels and they were like they were using it for like statistical reasons they were counting guns in Mexico and they were like bodies were stacking up in Mexico and they were using those dead bodies to justify like how we need more gun control laws here to prevent guns going into Mexico because of all the death and violence that was being created when they were the ones that were created who was funny who was profiting off of it who uh I don't you know what but but because because of fat but but because of Fast and Furious sort of be getting outed that that ultimately outed the guys that were sort of [ __ ] with you yeah but you know what like none of them paid none of them paid for what they did to me none of them paid for Fast and Furious actually some of them got promoted wow um but for the people that make the rules there are no rules they can do whatever they want and they do and they know they can't and they know they can get away with it and and do you feel I mean I was talking to Mel about this earlier I mean do you feel like those threats are still out there for you I well I'll say this I don't live my life in fear I live my life with concern um if I put myself in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong combination of people I could have a problem but do I think that they're hunting me no right um like I don't like I don't hide I'm not looking for a problem right right you put yourself out I don't hide right um I live my life with concern um but like I'm you know if if I get confronted with a problem I will walk away if you give me the opportunity I will run away but if you Corner me yeah like we're all going to the hospital right like all of us are right like I always felt like I've got God's hand on one shoulder and a pistol on my hip and between all of us we'll figure it out yep um and that's not cocky I'm not looking for a fight I don't want to fight first I don't want to fight these dudes I can't beat these guys yeah I've shown I can't beat them yeah yeah um it's funny because you know when I don't know it's funny but you know what what you know what I was talking to Mel about it you know the way he said is like you know honestly like now looking at your case and what you were able to do you know because I know George Christie a little bit too sure I know George as well and and uh you know I'm I'm dealing with the thing up in in my little town where I live um uh woman that's real really close with us helps helps raise my kids raise my kids since they were little um you know her her oldest her oldest son when he was 14 uh got linked up with a um a little gang out of Santa Paul I live in a little town called Ojai California and uh he uh you know he's 14 years old didn't really grow up with a dad a little bit of abuse he got linked up with the gang only a couple months but he got into it with a bigger kid um who was in sort of an offshoot kind of uh a gang that was connected with the angels down in Ventura and the kid was bigger he was older they got into a fight at the party they both went outside they agreed to have a fight both of them pulled out knives 14 year old ended up killing the 16 year old but he got sentenced to 36 to life no priors no nothing as a minor um but you know the Angels really uh you know to this woman that I'm very close with uh surrounded her house every night rubbing their engine scared her intimidated or threatened her uh and um you know I really care about this woman and and you know like I've tried to do sort of what I what I can do in it to help um those dudes have their phds and violence and intimidation they know how to scare you know how to scare you you know and and and when I talked to Mel about you know this situation you know the way he puts it um and I don't know if you've heard this before but I just found it interesting it's like look man you got him like like for him he's like at this point everybody looks at what you did as like you were just bet you won like you duped them like they [ __ ] up like you know like you you beat him and and you were yeah who you said you were you had your [ __ ] tight and and now there's like sort of like an honor in that there's like you know and like hey look man if someone's threatening me or my family that's not gonna necessarily make me sleep well at night but I just I wonder what what you thought of that when I've encountered I've got uh relationships on various levels with with uh current and ex Hells Angels um and I've had you know like pretty dangerous guys saying like look dude I don't like you I don't like the way you did this but um you're you're pretty dang good at it man and we understand that we do what we do and there's guys out there that do what you do you were better than us that's right um like like no one gets a trophy for it no one gets a trophy for winning that's right right that's right um ultimately they won right um after two years of pain and suffering and blood and violence and all this stuff and then all the aftermath and all my battle with a with ATF the Hell's Angels are stronger today than they were when I started on them they didn't get weaker they got better they got smarter you know I've had complaints with my No Angel book people are saying dude like okay good story good cop story right interesting you inspired people to become Hell's Angels with that people like saw the other side of it the glamor on the dark side of it like you like that's a recruiting tool for them and I'm like oh okay okay it's because it's all about choices like like for all of us right everyone's sitting here look at yourself and say choices you made earlier in your life the ones you made obviously put you on a path like you're successful and you're famous and you're a movie star you could have made a choice that exact same day that had you locked up oh man I was right there there's choices 100 and like when you're a young kid and you don't have life's experiences behind you and you're confronted with those Life Choices man you can't get it wrong because when you do it's unrecoverable what are you most proud of like what are you most proud of uh I'm proud of my family and I'm and I'm proud of them for them um I'm proud of them uh they they really truly showed me what love is because they they just they stuck by me and like I gave them no reason to I gave them that there's there's absolutely no reason why they should be in my life and even if they were remote uh removed from my life there's really no reason for them to even have any communication with me that's how much battle damage I put on them and there they are man wow every day there they are that's beautiful man and and and and right now with this you know like this sort of like anti-cop movement in this country like what what's your take on that well yeah I mean you look like we're one day removed from we're filming one day removed from the Vivaldi shooting in Texas we're a week removed from Buffalo from the supermarket shooting in Buffalo um so there's all these arguments out there of uh you know like like more gun laws gun control right um like I I think we need to do something different if I knew the solution I would offer it but I know what the answer is not I don't know what the answer is I know what it's not what's it the answer is not to take money away from the police to have less police that is not the answer we need to give we need like the exact opposite of defund the police over fund the police get better get more cops get better cops train them better every expert out there and I'm not an expert every expert out there says like dude train train train them train them to de-escalate train them like all the things the shortcomings exactly right um don't take money away from them don't try to weaken them it weakens all of us man do you have any opinion do you have any opinion you know with with what happened uh you know yesterday I mean do you do you I mean look man like your perspective on like illegal guns I mean that's like that's what you did man I mean like what what do you think about that what's your take on guns what's your take on how easy it is to get them like you know I I I know you said I mean like are you a big gun guy do you still carry like what yeah I carry but I wouldn't consider myself a gun guy or a gun expert by any means um I I I do believe this there's 350 million guns in the United States um if if I am a criminal or if I have a violent mindset and I'm willing to go out and murder someone which is the ultimate sin the ultimate crime do I care what the gun law says right about my ability to get it like we both know and like like we're in an affluent area here right we both know in 10 minutes we could get our hands on a gun without knowing anybody in this neighborhood just going around and starting to shake some hands 100 in 10 minutes we'd have a conversation if you really wanted it 100 right and that like that's not uh that's not like an undercover guy talking that or that's not a guy who's experienced in in that world and and the techniques that's anybody anybody anybody you know what I bring my gun with me every time I come to the city I live out in the country every time I come to City I always bring bring it with me that is so different from like how I was when I was growing up like I grew up in a city that was the murder capital of the country um you know like like Nick will tell you you know we grew up in an environment where like you know where we grew up it was like pretty safe you know but you you went a block to the left you blocked to the right and there was there's kids getting shot at school there's just shootings all the time and it was and so I was growing up you know to to really like hate guns I I just spies them and if you had a problem with somebody you settled with your hands like that's what you did I just feel like for me you know now this kind of front row ticket that I get in different cities to law enforcement and getting to know these people from the the shows I do and the relationships that I get to make it doesn't seem to be like that anymore everyone's shooting each other the gun is the great equalizer uh when you were kids you'd Slug It Out right the best fighter or the biggest guy or the strongest guy wins doesn't work like that anymore the skinniest most Punky most wimpy most coward can win because the gun is the great equalizer so is the answer then so is the answer then more guns are more people in schools like what do you like what do you think it's just like it's it's such a societal question yeah you look at like you just look at the world like like in the and the gun the gun argument part of it you look at like the the issues on the border you look at the the war in Ukraine you look at the abortion uh issues are all uh back on fight well not that they've never been not on fire but now they're just prevalent again um uh gas prices the economy and as a society we're freaking giving two [ __ ] about what's going on with Johnny Depp and Amber hurt it's crazy like it's crazy really crazy so right now I mean like you're you're you you coach you coach football you're coaching High School football you know you're in a position right now where like you're shaping young men's lives and hearts in a way I mean just some of the people that have the biggest effect in my life or my high school football coaches I'm just wondering like you know what are you seeing sort of like in the young men that you coach what what are you seeing in that High School environment what are you seeing that encourages you what are you seeing that like disappoints you um how does what happened yesterday in Texas how does it you know how does it play upon sort of like your role as a coach and Mentor for these young men well um my kids are out of school but like I know that that you have still have younger kids like how terrorizing to have kids going to school now and not knowing if like when you send them off or when you put them on the school bus whether you get to see them at the end of the day and like it's not like some kind of dream sequence uh uh illusion or imagination it's real it's happening all the time I think there's I think I read a stat where there's been 30 school shootings this year we're at the end of May when we're at a point where you have as good a chance of getting shot going to school as you do doing a drug deal yeah tell you what there wasn't there wasn't 19 uh or 26 drug murders yesterday I mean maybe there was maybe but between uh Second and and fifth or sixth grade that's insane it's insane it's you know what to be honest with you I mean I spent like my entire professional life trying to make an impact on that um and it it's like the in the the entirety of it has caused me to question everything I ever stood for and everything I ever believed in um and it's it's it's I don't want to give up but like there's days when I just want off the merry-round I just went off the Merry-Go-Round like I I did nothing I accomplished nothing I changed nothing um and like like I just I don't know I think that um you know I imagine like you know it's all about what can we do today and like who can we influence a day and what can we you know uh I don't know I I mean it is I mean there's there's no like easy way to you know talk about kind of you know what happened yesterday and and uh I can't imagine what these what these folks are going through and I just uh I don't think if if you haven't if you haven't lost a kid or lost a kid in those circumstances all you can do is is empathize with it and show compassion for it because you can't say like oh man I know how that feels no actually you know what you don't if you haven't gone through it you have no idea where I have no idea what that feels like no idea yeah all I can do is try to be compassionate for it empathetic towards it I have no idea what that feels like yeah yeah and not pretend like we got the answers you know no yeah yeah I was uh at Columbine High School about six hours after the that was the first not the first school shooting but the first big one yeah right and I can honestly say my DNA was altered that day like walking around that crime scene um I went from being a pretty happy joyful person to be in a really angry like I just I I wanted to just go like rage and fight and like lock people up and like take guns off the street and and stand in between like the good and innocent people in the communities and the Predators who wanted to ruin that for him I I like it really set that home I really like began to take a lot of pride in the responsibility in that um but like my my DNA changed that day and it wasn't like there's there's dead bodies of these kids in the school in the cafeteria in the library and there's and I mean it was a mess and I'll tell you what what burned on me and I and I still can't get that Vision out of my head there were backpacks there were book bags scattered all over that campus so like and you'd think that like you'd be focused on the the body of a kid you know or the or the the blood stains and and the Carnage there like I don't like my brain somehow has kind of erased that but I can't get rid of all those book bags all those backpacks scattered everywhere kids were shucking their their belongings and like kids who went to school that day to like enjoy their friends go to class go to their after school activities go to sports ended up like running for their lives and dying there that day and I was like so so angry with that like I was gonna like I'm gonna do something about this or die trying yep yep um man I uh this was like truly awesome bro like I I I admire you so much man and and I think beyond all else I mean not even all these incredible the the life that you're living in the life that you lead but uh you're just like super humble man and and honest and direct and I I uh I know I'm a better guy for knowing you man it's serious I I really really appreciate you you doing it and um I got just undying uh Limitless respect for you bro I I think for all of us for like what you do for all of us here on your crew for me like like like just try to change the world for the better yeah like I said like like maybe it's just one person yeah maybe it's one moment in one person's day that's right that's right all those events have made me more spiritual I lost everything I lost my reputation like any any thought I had of leaving a legacy um I was bankrupted by my by my fight against the government I had destroyed my family relationships I'd lost friends had turned their back on me I lost everything and then I realized after everything's gone like God was still there like like he was still there man like in spite of all my mistakes and all the things I screwed up he was still there and I learned I I learned one really important thing if the only time you're talking to God is when you're in trouble you're in trouble you're in trouble that's right you know um so so the great thing the best thing and why I wouldn't change anything is because it all of that brought me closer to God God doesn't come in and rescue you from all your suffering he uses that suffering to pull you closer to him like you have to go through that and he's like saying like like are you gonna come to me are you gonna turn to me are you going to have faith are you going to believe are you going to keep trying to do things your way Jay because check it out dude they don't work out good on your plan follow my plan I had to learn that the hard way um you know information is not does not necessarily equal knowledge knowledge does not necessarily equal wisdom and for me like wisdom was always something that came to me right after I needed it thank you right on man thank you for having me thank you guys too [Music] hey what's going on everybody it's John Bam Bam the dog uh first on behalf of both of us and everybody from the real ones team I just want to sincerely thank you guys for for tuning in the folks that I bring on the show they're family to me and uh being able to tell their stories and bringing you into their world is something I'm I'm just super proud of and uh again grateful that you guys tune in we've decided we want to take things just a step further it's a patreon community and basically what that means is if you become a part of this community look I already board Bam Bam if you want to become a part of this community you're going to be able to hear episodes early and all that ad free and all that good stuff but there's all this behind the scenes footage all this stuff that we've shot that really brings you into the folks that we've had on the show really brings you into their world live chats with me and the folks that I bring on the show to talk about their world talk about the issues that they're dealing with but their triumphs and their tragedies just go to patreon slash real ones on this website that you see right there right on the screen that's right in front of you this whole idea was something about building bridges and and bringing people together and bringing folks that often don't get the mic and giving the mic to them so the fact that you guys tuned in means the world anyways again thank you be good to each other out there rock and roll I'm gonna get a workout in a little bit with my man Eric Linden stunt coordinator from The Punisher he's coming all the way up because we're about to get after it and when that's done he asked me in the car are you gonna have my shake ready and I know what that means am I going to have my son Warrior Shake they've got the active protein but they also have this collagen protein which is amazing they also have the warrior blend which is a little bit lighter if you're trying to cut and uh I believe in it I believe in that some Warrior stuff go to www.sunwarrior.com real ones

Channel: REAL ONES with Jon Bernthal

Views: 262,316

Keywords: hells angels, real ones podcast, jon bernthal, true crime

Id: _pvFQ01QqM4

Length: 95min 43sec (5743 seconds)

Published: Fri Apr 21 2023