- Death row, a place in a prison
that houses inmates who are sentenced to execution
after being convicted of a capital crime. The first established death penalty laws date as far back as the 18th-century BCE in the code of King Hammurabi of Babylon, which codified the death penalty
for 25 different crimes, including cheating on a spouse
and helping people escape enslavement. The death penalty's use
has spread throughout nearly every part of the world
over the course of history, but a large majority of countries today have either abolished
or discontinued the practice. Despite the extreme controversy
of this topic in the US which has led to many states
abolishing it altogether, capital punishment
still remains legal in 28 states with over 2,600 people currently on death row. In the last 50 years, nearly 9,000 people have been executed in the US
by order of the government. My name is Anthony Padilla. Today, I'm going to be sitting down with
people sentenced with the death penalty who've been exonerated or expunged
after being found not guilty. Are these death row exonerees able to live their free life to the fullest after losing years of their life to prison where they awaited execution
for a crime they didn't commit, or are they completely gutted
by the wrongful accusation that sent them through years
of physical and psychological torment at the hand of the justice system
they once believed was built to protect them? [music] - Hello, Nick. - How are you doing, Anthony? [music] - Derrick. - Hey, good evening, brother.
How are you doing, Anthony? [music] - Sunny and Peter. - Hello, Anthony. [music] - Thank you so much for coming on here and teaching me about the world
of death row survivors. - Man, it's my pleasure to be here, brother. - How would you describe yourself?
A death row survivor? Someone who was found not guilty
while awaiting a death sentence? - Former death row prisoner. - I guess death row survivors
would be my choice, I suppose. - Death row survivor sound great because-- - I like that too. [laughs] - Can you recall the events that led up
to your death penalty conviction? - In 1984, in Cincinnati, Ohio, a young man by the name of Gary Mitchell was working his family's establishment. It was a nightclub called the Central Cafe
in Cincinnati, Ohio. On August the 1st in 1984, two young men entered this establishment
and attacked Gary. Eight days later,
this young man passed away and died. On October the 25th, a year later, I was sent to die for this horrendous crime, this horrible crime
that I had nothing to do with. - Why did this murder get placed on you? - We had a bunch of overzealous
police officers taking the case and it was a high-profile case. They didn't care who they charged with it-- - They just needed to peg someone
for this crime? - Yes, they needed to find somebody. In my case, they caught the guy. They caught a guy
with the victim's personal belonging and all this money on him and guns. We didn't notice the top. I've been sent to die. They caught the guy and they let the guy go. - I was a 20-year-old drug addict living in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
in 1981. I was pulled over while intoxicated while operating a stolen car. I got into a scuffle with the police officer and it escalated
to the point of his gun discharging. He told a huge lie about me and this lie was that I took his gun
and tried to murder him. While I was incarcerated
for these initial charges, I made up a lie about a local unsolved crime
that was a murder in the area. The police figured out that I was lying,
but they nevertheless used me to mop up an unanswered question of who did it. I told the police that a friend of mine
had confessed to the crime, but I believe that that guy
had died of a drug overdose, so I thought I was going to get out
and run away, but it didn't work. - They were able to pin that crime on you in addition to the lie that the officer told about what you did
when you were in that scuffle with him? - It was all because of a prisoner who had burglarized the prosecutor's home who told them that I had confessed to him of the rape and murder of Linda May Craig,
the woman in question. I was then taken to trial on my
initial charges of attempted murder in 1982 against the word of a police officer
and I was found not guilty. The police then sought the death penalty out of vengeance for me being acquitted
of those original charges, so I was given a three-day
capital murder trial and sentenced to die at the age of 21. I was just so desperate to get out
from the initial lie of this police officer, I made up a lie of my own. In a 20-year-old's mind, as soon as you got out the door,
it would all go away. - In Ireland, on the 7th of July 1980, there was a bank robbery in a town called
Ballaghaderreen in County Roscommon. According to police,
three men robbed the bank and made their getaway in a getaway car. On a small country road at a crossroads,
the getaway car collided with a police car. There was an exchange of gunfire
and two police officers were killed. The three raiders escaped that same evening. One man was arrested on the side
of the road with a bullet wound in his chest. Another man was arrested
the following morning and the third man eluded them and they were
searching cross-country for him. Their claim was that this man was me. 12 days after the event on the 19th of July, I was arrested in a house in Galway. - I was 27 years old.
I was a young mother of two young children. My husband at the time had asked
a friend of his to give us a lift because our car had broken down in Florida. We decided to pull over into a rest area. Police came to do
a routine check of the rest area. I was at the time asleep in the back
of the car with the two children. The police report said that
when they looked into the car, they saw a handgun between the driver's feet. They took him out of the car
and asked for his ID and told him to stand aside. The man from whom they confiscated the gun
was actually on parole, so that changed everything. The policeman then drew his gun. He said, "Okay, nobody move.
The next person to move is dead," and then there was gunfire. I just covered the children. When it got quiet, I determined that we were still alive and then I looked up to see if Jesse was okay. He was just standing
between the cars looking shocked. The driver was running around the car with a gun in his hand ordering Jesse to put us into the police car. I asked if he could just leave me
and the kids there, we'd be fine, but Jesse explained. He said,
"Listen, this guy has just shot two policemen and if we don't go with him,
he may kill us as witnesses." - You had proof that he was willing
to shoot and kill. - Now, we became hostages of a man who just shot and later we found out
killed the two policemen. There was a roadblock. He made this last-minute decision
to try to avoid the roadblock. As he did, all the policemen
at the roadblock with their rifles opened fire on the car. - Oh, my God.
- Again, I covered the children and we crashed. The only one who was
actually injured was the driver. He was shot in the leg and he was taken away. Jesse was taken and handcuffed
behind his back and then all the policemen with their guns
pointed them at me. I tried to explain that we had nothing to do
with what happened, but all they knew was that
two of their comrades were killed and that somehow
all or one or whoever was responsible. - They got in their heads
that someone needed to pay for this. - Oh yes. Actually, what they did
is they drove us to an unused portion of the railroad track where they got out of the car and were arguing among themselves
whether to take us in or to simply kill us right there
and say we had tried to escape. - You saw right there, the corruption that this power that they felt
they had over you to make decisions
about whether you would live or die. - Fortunately, the one that was arguing
to take us in prevailed. - Before we continue learning
about the world of death row survivors-- - I survived a riot, multiple stabbings, being put into the cages with another man, and made to fight that man for mere sport
and entertainment of the prison guards. - I had no fear of death, but I was afraid to die without dignity. - I want to shout out and thank
Witness to Innocence, the organization that helped us
contact some of the guests in this video as they work to empower
exonerated death row survivors. Witness to Innocence is the nation's only organization dedicated to empowering exonerated death row survivors to be the most powerful
and effective voice in the struggle to end the death penalty in the United States through public speaking,
testifying in state legislatures, media work, and active participation in our nation's cultural life. Their members are helping
to end the death penalty by educating the public about
innocence and wrongful convictions. For more information,
I'll go ahead and include a link to the Witness to Innocence website
in the description below. Now, back to the world of death row survivors. What was the interrogation
and trial process like for you? - It was awful, man. Saying you've done something
and you don't know nothing about what they saying you done, you lost. - You really can't say anything except,
"I didn't do it. I don't know what you're talking about." - That's the only two things you could say is, "I didn't do it. It wasn't me. It wasn't me." - It was very slanted. Everyone was just waiting the outcome. When I was sentenced to death, the jury took time
from sentencing me to convicting me to go out to the Wagon Wheel Restaurant
and eat dinner while they decided
whether or not to put me to death. - Over at dinner, they decided that a man that they didn't
necessarily have the proper evidence for would receive death at the hand
of the justice system that you were led to believe would protect you? - I watched all these people outside
walking around. I couldn't believe that they were all
laughing and joking and having a great time. There I was, 21 years old,
I just got sentenced to death plus 60 years, so I was done. - I was taken to the police station where
I was remanded in custody, interrogated. Evidence fabricated against me and I was brought before
the non-jury special criminal court where I was tried, convicted, and sentenced
to death for capital murder and robbery. During the course of my trial,
the police officer who had actually apprehended the man
they were chasing and spoken to, although the man then escaped from him,
when asked did he recognize the man, he said he did. "Did you see him again?"
He said, "Yes, he's in the court." He pointed up to the public gallery
and he says, "That's him standing up there
with his back to the wall." - Somebody else.
- Possibly, the only person that would know for sure
that it wasn't you clearly stated that it wasn't you,
and then nothing came about of that? - That's correct.
- Why do you think it was pinned on you? Why were you even brought in
in the first place? - I had a political background. I was a political activist
from the time I was 16 years of age. As far as the state was concerned,
I was considered to be a subversive. Until they arrested a torn man, the media
could speculate as to what happened. They had to get closure
and I was a political activist, so they picked me up and framed me. - Jesse's trial came first. He was tried, convicted,
and sentenced to death in four days. There wasn't a shred of evidence against him, except for the word of the killer, then my trial came up
and my trial lasted for two weeks. My lawyer said that
we had no need to put up a defense. - You were being told
that being innocent was enough? - Yes, and I thought so. - Yes, that's what we're led to believe
that the justice system will take care of those that are guilty
and will free those that are innocent. - He explained to me that
by not putting up a defense, it would give him a better position
in the closing argument. - All you had to do was be yourself and they
would see that you were obviously innocent. - The judge had been a highway patrolman
before he was a judge. He'd been asked to recuse himself
to not be the judge on our case because he couldn't possibly be impartial having been part of that brotherhood, but he refused to do that. - You can do that?
You can refuse to step down from a case that you're obviously going to have bias in? - He did, and so each juror has
to get up and say how they voted. When they said that they voted for life, the judge overruled them
and sentenced me to death anyway. - What? You can just overrule? You can make
an executive decision and decide, "You know what?
All this time that we spent deliberating--" The system that we have in place
to ensure this doesn't happen, they can just overrule all of that? - He was supposed to make
a proper written reason for having done so,
a legal reason for having done so, but he didn't. - Everything that we're taught to believe, it's really not there.
It's not there to protect us in the way that we're told that it is. - Systems are there to protect themselves. - Did you have faith in the justice system
before all of this played out? - In minor things, it could go wrong,
but not something as important as this. - It seems like it's rare
when it goes wrong, right? - People used to say,
"Well, yes, but you must have done something." I mean, the police don't just do that. - Right. People who want more power
don't ever abuse their power. - People just make up their mind
and they are going to do it and they believe
they're doing the right thing. - Peter, did you have faith
in the justice system at that time? - No.
[laughter] - Well, you were an activist. - I had been an activist and I had a critical
and somewhat cynical view of the whole apparatus.
Sometime previous to my being arrested, I was campaigning against the death penalty for two other people
who had been sentenced to death. - The fact that you were against
death row so openly is almost what led you
to that point ironically. - It could be, yes. - Did you ever feel coerced
into saying anything self-incriminating? - I was taken to an interrogation room
and two detectives came in and were trying to get me to say
something that they wanted me to say. Every time I said, "You know, you're trying to
get me to say something that's not true," they would shut off the tape
and then start again. - Wow. Clear manipulation
over and over and over again. - Cognitive bias. They have a name for it now,
but in those days, they didn't. Now, we know that that's called "cognitive bias." You try to prove and find whatever it is
that proves what you believe. - Were you ever presented with a plea deal? - Yes, they offered me all kind of deals, but I couldn't take no deal
because I didn't do it. If you sign these papers--
A lot of exonerees would tell you that. You sign these papers,
you could walk up out of here scot-free because it keeps them from being reliable. - You would sign these papers
and that would be you basically saying, "I'm guilty and I admit these things," but then you would in return
get a lessened sentence and, in this case,
being released from death row? - If I would've signed them papers, they would've
let me walk up out of there scot-free. - You would still have that conviction
attached to you though for the rest of your life
if you were to sign that? - Yes, you would. - Do you remember the moment
that you heard that-- when you heard the judge say
that you would be facing the death penalty? - Oh, I knew I was convicted the day before when they showed photographs of the victim
and the members of the jury were crying. Anthony, they were hurrying home to go for the Fourth of July holiday weekend. The judge told them, "Now, I know that each and every one of you
shares a grave concern that this trial will interfere
with the Fourth of July holiday weekend, being only three days away. I promise you,
this trial will be over in three days and we can all get to go home and celebrate." - They're almost encouraging the jury to speed through this process, give you
a conviction, and go home and celebrate regardless of the fact
that they were putting a man that they did not have significant,
sufficient evidence to prove that you were actually guilty
and worthy of receiving the death penalty. - I just turned 21 a few months before my trial. I was a kid. I wasn't no grown man. - Can you explain what death row was like and how your day-to-day life
generally played out? - 24 hours a day of lockdown, knowing that you're going to die is hard. It was like being in hell. A lot of people have been in jail,
but I wasn't in jail. I was in hell. They shut down the prison and walked me down
this long corridor to death row. They opened up the door and I remember
when we walked in the death house, I could look over in the corner
and see Old Sparky. They call it the Old Sparky because, like
I said, people are caught on fire in this chair. It's like a bulletproof glass fixing with the-- You could see the electric chair
sitting there. - When you saw that electric chair,
could you imagine yourself sitting there being executed on that chair? - I remember, man, looking at that chair,
it was scary, man. I had just been sent to die and I was a wreck. When the guards said, "Dead man walking," I said, "I ain't dead yet." He was being smart. - It's almost like they're taunting you
by saying, "Dead man walking," to people, letting you see
the electric chair sitting there, and all you can do is imagine yourself being murdered
at the hand of the justice system. - I remained in solitary confinement
for five years. I only got visits from my family
four times a year during school holidays. I wasn't allowed any phone calls. I only got out of my cell twice a week
for a brief shower, and then maybe 15 minutes
outside with a guard. I wasn't allowed to communicate
with any other prisoners, and then back to my cell
for another three or four days, give you back your white pajamas
with your number. That's part of the dehumanization
process is you no longer have a name, you're a number. - I would spend the next 12 years
on the hardest block in America. I survived a riot, multiple stabbings, being put into the cages with another man, and made to fight that man for the mere sport and entertainment of the prison guards. - Wow.
- I witnessed people commit suicide. I saw murders there. It was just full-on. - You were really put through as close to hell as one may ever see in their life. - Yet I grew up there and became
one of the most dangerous men they ever held because
I cared about other men. - It was more of the empathy that you had that made you dangerous to these guards? - Imagine that you can't write
beautiful letters to your mother, but I can. Imagine that you aren't good
at reading the law, but I'm really good at it. I got two guys' sentences reduced to life imprisonment. That turned everybody's head my way. Suddenly, everyone wanted me to help them. If anyone did anything to me, the staff especially, it would be a full-on outbreak of rage and actions from men around me because I was so important to them. - What were the psychological effects of counting down days
to your execution while knowing full well that you were not guilty of the crime
that you were accused of? - I was sentenced to death
on the 27th of November 1980. The death sentence was to be carried out on the 19th of December
of that year, just three weeks later. While sitting on my bed
reading a newspaper one day, I overheard three jailers discussing what role they might have to play
in my execution. - What role they would have to play? - They were talking about me as if I wasn't there or as if I didn't exist or I wasn't a human being. Apparently, they had been told
by their superiors that two jailers would have to participate
in my being hanged. - As if being hanged wasn't enough. - This made me enraged. - As it should. - I realized that while they had me
imprisoned physically, they couldn't imprison my mind
or my spirit or my heart. I determined that those are
the realms of myself wherein I would live in that situation and that's what I did. I came to the realization
that I was not afraid to die. I had no fear of death- - Really?
- - but I was afraid to die without dignity and I determined I wouldn't let them do that. - There were only two books in my cell,
a law book and a Bible. The law book was useless at that point in time and I used the Bible as a book of wisdom. It's the Bible that made me realize that they don't actually get to say when I die. That's not really up to them, even though they had it written down
and they had all the power. Instead, I took back control of my life. I couldn't control my environment.
I couldn't control where I was. From here in, I could control. - It was the one area
that you still had that control over. - I used the only tools that I had, which was yoga and meditation and prayer. That became my trinity. - While you were on death row,
were you aware of any developments that were being made with your case that could eventually lead
to your exoneration? - I was the first man in the United States
in 1988 to seek DNA testing- - - from prison? - Yes, I had no idea that over the next 15 years from that point, they would actively try to murder me. They destroyed all the autopsy material. When I had it located again,
they absconded with it from a laboratory. They went on and on and on trying to murder me even though I was trying to use science
to prove my innocence. I joined forces with Dr. Sir Alec Jeffreys, the inventor of DNA science. From England, he guided me over 12 years, educated me on DNA so I could learn everything possible
to defend myself in the courts. - 11 days before my execution date, the state commuted my sentence
to 40 years penal servitude without any possibility of parole. - Can you explain how that change occurred? - I was one day called out
to the governor's office, "Pringle, you're now doing 40 years. You're no longer sentenced to death."
I said, "On what authority?" He said, "On my authority." I said, "You don't have the authority to do that." He said, "Get out of here
and get your lawyer to contact me." - Were you given a reason for why it was changed from death to-- - From death to 40 years just like that. I was put out
in the general prison population which, for a couple of days, was grand. Then I realized
I couldn't face 40 years in that place. I determined that I was going to try
and prove my innocence. - Can you explain what went through your head when you realized
that you were no longer going to be facing death by hanging in the coming weeks? - It was a mixture. There was relief, of course, but I couldn't study because my anger was such that even reading my own case papers, my eyes would well up and I just couldn't do it. I knew I had to try to relax. I asked a friend of mine to get me in a book on yoga and I began to try
to teach myself yoga in the cell. Gradually, I learned how to do yoga
and, gradually, I was meditating. Gradually, my anger abated to such an extent
that I was able to study. That's what I spent most of my time doing
while I was in the prison. Other prisoners would come to me
with their cases and ask me to look at their papers, which I did because when you're asked
to help somebody, you do it sort of automatically nearly. The second reason was by helping them,
I was helping myself. I got a reputation in the prison
as a jailhouse lawyer. In the nearly 15 years
that I spent in the prison, I succeeded in helping 13 men
to get out of prison. - You kind of became a hero in some ways. You let 13 other people have their innocence because
you took that time to educate yourself. - I have to say that they weren't all innocent. - [laughs] Okay, got it. - Yes, but none of them were imprisoned
in accordance with due process, which meant in my eyes
that they were unlawfully imprisoned. - How long were you ultimately on death row
before being found innocent? - 8,057 days. - How many years does that translate to
just for my sake? - 23 years.
- I got sent to die October the 25th, 1985. I walked off the death row October the 25th of 2005, the same day, the same day, Anthony. The worst day of my life
became the best day of my life after-- - 20 years later. - Exactly 20 years later. - After five years, my sentence was changed from death back to life because the judge had overruled the jury without giving a legal reason and because my court-appointed attorney wasn't prepared to discuss the death penalty. - By kind of strange happenstance,
your penalty was changed? - I was put into the population of the prison which, like Peter,
for me was like a celebration. It's like, "Woo, I can talk to people
and I can go eat with people." It was so great. I could make phone calls home. I could call my children for the first time. - At that moment, that felt like freedom even though it was still obviously not. - Oh gosh, it was a lot better. Let's just put it that way. It was a lot better. After my sentence was changed, my parents decided that they would take a vacation
that didn't involve bringing the children to visit prison because they didn't have
to worry about me being executed anymore. - That stress was no longer with them. They probably felt like they needed
to be around to keep up with any change that might be occurring
because they knew that you were potentially
going to be executed at any moment. - Unfortunately, the plane crashed and they were killed. - On their vacation
to finally take that moment away, to take that breath of fresh air
knowing that their daughter was no longer going to be executed? - Yes, they were killed. Thank God, they left the children home, so they weren't with them. It meant that now, my children became orphans again and I became an orphan too and there was nobody outside anymore
to help with my case, to send me maybe a little money so I could get something. That was definitely the worst day
of my entire life bar none. In the 15th year of our incarceration, Jesse received his third death warrant
and that normally is fatal than it was for him. In his case,
the electric chair malfunctioned. Instead of dying when they pulled the switch
and send the electricity through his body, he caught fire. The witnesses said that flames shot out
of his head from underneath the helmet and smoke came out and they had to do this to him three times before he was finally pronounced dead. - One thing after another, which turned an already horrendous
situation into something truly, truly, truly more devastating than anyone
could ever imagine. - About two-and-a-half years
after Jesse was executed, with the help of friends
who never believed that I was guilty and the pro bono lawyers, they were able to win my habeas corpus, which meant that my sentence and conviction
were overturned at that point. Like Peter,
they threatened to give me a new trial. They weren't going to let me go. - How were you eventually proven innocent? - 35 pieces of evidence--
withheld 35 pieces of evidence. - They were able to prove
that they purposefully withheld pieces of evidence? - 35 pieces of evidence. You only need one piece of new evidence
to get a new trial. They withheld 35 pieces. - I went to court in January of 1992 representing myself because
I had no lawyer and I had no money. I was taking an action
under the Constitution. In July, I won an order for discovery of the state papers
and the police papers in the case. I had a job fighting for that one, but I won it. The basis upon
which I was sentenced to death was after 34 hours of interrogation, a detective sergeant claimed that in a particular interrogation,
I had uttered these words, "I know that you know I was involved, but on the advice of my solicitor, I'm saying
nothing and you'll have to prove it all the way." Words I never said,
but he swore an oath in the trial and he had kept a record of the interrogation
that I'd said these words. When I got the photocopy of his notebook, it showed that he had entered the words
into the notebook before the interrogation
in which he claimed I said them. - Wow.
- It was clear that they had decided-- They had no evidence against me.
They decided to concoct evidence and I had my conviction overturned. The state had asked for a retrial and I was remanded in custody to go before the special criminal court
the following day to face the same charge that I already had overturned. I was brought into the witness box and I was asked if they gave me bail,
would I turn up for my trial. I said, "Of course, I would." If the states are foolish enough
to try and persist again, I said, "I've already proved my innocence once
and I can do it a second time," and so they gave me bail and I was released. A week later,
the state dropped the case against me. - We also asked for discovery
of anything we hadn't seen. At which point, they delivered
10 boxes of material to my lawyers who-- I mean, how to make a living besides my case. There was no way
they could go through those boxes, but my friends Mickey and Christy, they took those boxes to a hotel room and they started going through them. First, they found a report that the killer had passed the polygraph test
that he was required to take in order to prove they weren't making
the bargain with the real killer. My friend said,
"Why would we believe that report? They've lied about so much.
Let's hire a polygraph expert to examine the graph
that actually came off the machine." They hired an ex-policeman.
He discovered that he hadn't passed the lie detector test. Now, I thought that should have been
the end of it, but it wasn't. They kept going until my friends found that one of the prison guards had overheard the guy bragging, confessing, and had submitted a written report about it. That had been hidden from us all those years. That stopped the hearings
and, eventually, I was released. - It wasn't until I got sick with hepatitis from the beating
that they gave me that I asked to be executed. - You actually were at such
a low point and so sick that you requested your own execution? - The federal courts at that point stepped in and demanded that
all remaining DNA evidence be located in February of 2003. They got DNA from the killer's gloves
left inside the car that belonged to the victim. It was the first scientific evidence
in the case indicating that DNA from unknown male number one was present. It would consume the remaining DNA
in further testing, but it would be consumptive and that if all of the evidence remaining didn't yield any evidence,
they were going to go ahead and grant me my wish to be executed. - It was almost like because you wanted death, they were willing to look into it
to prove that your death wasn't justified. - I thought I was next, so I asked to have it accelerated
by being executed and I was granted the second round
of DNA testing in July of 2003, proving my innocence
and they took me off death row. - Do you remember the moment that you were told that you would be released
and you would become a free man again? - Man, like the heavens opened up on a cloudy day and the sun just come out. It felt like that day before Christmas, then you know you got all the toys out there. Your mom would tell you,
"Go upstairs and go to bed." - I had the happiest face you ever saw. - Despite everything that you went through,
you were still able to find that moment to really experience
and take in that joy? - There's this one picture in the newspaper of me like right after they said it and they're
taking off the handcuff and I was like, "Oh, my face was so happy." Sometimes when I'm not feeling that great,
I look at that picture and I can't help but be happy. That's the best. - What was the first thing that you did
once you were freed? - Went to eat at the Waffle House. - [laughs] That's a vicious celebration
right there. - It was the best food I ever had in my life. That food tasted so good. I was used to eating garbage for 20 years. - I had no idea a waffle could taste this good. - One of the first things I did
was to go to the sea because it felt like only the sea
could be powerful enough to wash it away, almost like a baptism. Just to wash it away and come out
a completely new, clean person. - I went and stayed with my friend who had put up the bond for me. Got up in the morning. I was the first up. I went down to the kitchen.
Everybody else in the house was still asleep. I went out to the back garden. It was a lovely, long back garden.
It was a beautiful day. Sun shining. No walls around me, no barbed wire, the birds singing. I walked down that garden and down
the bottom of that garden was a big apple tree. A big, old apple tree.
I went to this big, old apple tree and I put my hand on the trunk of the tree. As I was standing there, I began to think, "In all the time that I'd been in prison and all the things that had happened to me, this tree was growing quietly in this garden every year
producing its fruit, shedding its leaves,
hibernating for the winter, growing back in the spring,
and going through nature's way irrespective of the big city all around it and the greed and the avarice and all that rat race stuff that was going on
and the justice and injustice." I put my arms around
the trunk of the tree and I wept. That was the first moment
when I knew that I was free. - How was your life changed most
since death row? - It's changed for the better
'cause I'm like a teacher now. I'm teaching the world about abolition. I'm teaching the world about
injustice and the death coming. I also teach them about love and compassion. I tell them the reason I ain't angry
and I'm always happy 'cause I saw with anger, God's angry when they were taking my friends
out of their cell and murdering them. I would never want to act like that. That's why I'm so kind and I'm always smiling. - What do you think
was the most difficult part about assimilating back to normalcy again? - 16 years of freedom
been harder than death row. - Why is that?
- Well, look at my life right now. I spent the last 16 years trying to free
all these other men and help them. I dedicated all my freedom
to all this other stuff and I didn't give myself a lot of time to heal. In June of this year, I drove across America with my family and I got Walter Ogrod
out of prison after 28 years. I met him in 1999 and I promised him back then, I would get him out and I got him out this year. - You've spent your free time putting all your effort and energy into helping others
who were falsely accused escape? - Yes, and it took a toll on my life. - How do you feel about the US being one of just 35 countries still practicing
the death penalty today? - I think that if the death penalty
could be abolished in the United States, it would give impetus to abolition
of the death penalty in other countries. - I went to Sweden at one point and there was
a man named Hans Göran Franck, who started amnesty in Sweden. I asked him, "What do you think
would help to end the death penalty?" He said, "When the US ends the death penalty,
then the rest will follow." - Why do you think it is that the US sets
the precedent for the rest of the world? - I still think the US is a leader
in that way and can continue to be. I do think that when the new president does away with federal executions that the other states will follow
and I think it will be a huge step. - If there's anyone watching
who's currently facing wrongful accusations of a crime
they didn't commit, is there anything
that you'd want to say to them? - Innocent people make noise. If you really generally are innocent, that's what an innocent person wants. He wants to tell someone the truth. A guilty person just wants the system
to maybe get it wrong or they're going to tell stories
about how they're innocent, but the facts don't really mesh. - Testify for yourself because both Peter and I were told that we don't need to put up a defense,
you don't need to take the stand. There's nothing against you,
so there's no point in putting yourself through that
and it was a mistake. - It is painted the other way
where it's like if you try to defend yourself,
then you're going to look like you have a reason to defend yourself
when, in reality, it gives you a moment to express
your emotion and people to see that soul behind your eyes. - As Sonny says,
"If you come to trial and you're there and no matter what your lawyers say to you, go into the witness box on oath
and tell the truth." - What do you think
is the biggest misconception about people who have served time on death row? - Do you know that of all the people
released from death row, none of them have gone out
and committed murders? All of them are sweet, loving,
amazing people because we take what we now have so precious,
we don't want to spoil it. - All right, you got five seconds
to shout out or promote anything you want directly in the camera, go. - I love y'all, man. God bless you all and let's end the death penalty in America. - It's called sunnycenter.org
and then you can get in touch with us and you can read about it and buy our books. - Sunny Center Foundation,
which is the foundation we established, which is there to help people
who have been wrongfully convicted after they are released from prison. - Hi, I want you to share this
as much as you possibly can. That's all I want. - Take my grandson's advice and subscribe. [laughter] - Thank you so much, Sunny and Peter. I feel like I understand the world of
surviving death row just a little bit more. - Thank you.
- Okay, thank you. - After spending the day
with these death row survivors, I've come to understand that while we want to believe
in the efficiency of our justice system, we should never assume
an accusation or sentence is accurate or even true
without considering all possibilities. We can only hope and routinely vote to ensure that our system continues
to grow more fair and more just over the course of our lifetime. See you later. Bye, guys. - Press the like.
- Press the like. [music] - Did you two meet in your work
in advocating for others to not experience the same things
that you both did? - Yes, I was marching against
the death penalty through Texas. Some people from Ireland that were
part of Amnesty International were there. They heard my talk and they invited me to come. Steve Earle, he said to me, "When you go to Ireland,
you got to meet Peter Pringle." - With a name like Peter Pringle, you got to go to Ireland
and meet Peter Pringle. - Yes, okay, but he told me nothing about Peter. When I got there, somebody else said
the same thing and gave me his number. I called him and I invited him
to come to my talk. - The door opened over the far side
and this little lady walked in. I walked over to her and I said,
"You must be Sunny Jacobs." - I said, "You must be Peter Pringle." [laughter] - The sheer amount of strength
that it required to get you through-- and the hope that was required
to get you through all of these extremely devastating events ended up in some ways
with this match made in heaven, this perfect, serendipitous moment where you both realize
that you both lived very similar lives. Now, despite everything
that you went through, you can now live your life together with all of that strength put together to form this bond and this family together. - It's our gift.
- It's our gift and we're blessed.
