[Music] on today's show we're talking all things creators with Nathan Barry founder of convertkit and host of the billion dooll Creator podcast we're going to talk middle class creators how you can have a midsize audience and make a ton of money especially in B2B niches this is something nobody's talking about and Nathan is breaking it down and you're going to want to stick around to the very end where Nathan gives you his three must dos for anyone who wants to be a Creator I'm your co-host kit Bodner Chief marketing officer at HubSpot I'm joined by my co-host Kieran Flanigan who's the chief marketing officer at zapier and this is marking Against the Grain let's get into Today's Show Nathan welcome to markting Against The Grain yeah thanks for having me on so one of the reasons we're really excited to have you on is because on our show we talk a lot about creators and the Creator first economy and you know Kier and I are bullish on creators but like where do you stand is that a good bet you're still going down that route what's the pros and the cons of the state of like the Creator movement today so the first thing is don't write it because it's a hot wve it'll change and and your company will die out because of it like the the 2021 vintage of like hot Creator companies I think most of them are going to die out but then the other thing is I think the Creator economy overall is absolutely massive and going to thrive and you know I think it' be five like five years from now I think it'll be two to five times bigger than it is now the thing that we've seen Nathan is like a lot of these channels that you can grow from today favor creators versus a a brand right like if you look at the social channels they for the most part want creators because they have all these Creator programs they don't even allow Brands to you know have their links on those platforms they want to monetize on the platform that favors creators so we've kind of seen this evolution of like all these channels start to kind of favor the individual versus the brand I'm curious if you've seen that how do you see that or do you see that Trend yourself I absolutely see it and it's not because the platform favors a an individual Creator over a brand it's because the consumers do it and so the platforms are watching that consumer behavior and then following it right everything that that the platforms are doing is to try to increase you know watch time views on advertising and that sort thing and so you need attention from a from an audience and so they're saying okay what works if we have you know random I don't know what Professional Services Company as their brand talking about here are seven ways that you should be ready for taxes this season or whatever the product is right they're seeing that content and then they're seeing you know the CPA who's saying hey here's what I'm actually seeing is I'm you know four things that I noticed last week cuz I was helping clients like here's what you should watch for in your business there is a going to be a night and day difference in engagement from consumers on that and so again it's not that the the platform is like this is what we want to exist in the world the platform is just like look this is what where attention is going they're trying to match their content with what their consumer wants and consumers for the most part are attracted towards an individual versus a brand and these channels actually allow individual to be much more front and center I think that would be to me like the bullish case on the Critter like if I had to sat down and say what's the bullish it's like well the consumer wants to like interact with individuals today it's easier than ever for an individual to get like front and center in all these channels with that person versus so maybe it's not like Creator versus a brand or person versus a brand but like just it's easier for a person with something to say to get in front of those people and that's what consumers gravitate towards the bearish case I've always had on just like creators in general and like anyone who wants to become a Creator is like where there's this like small subset of winners and everyone else is like losers and there's like like no there's like such a huge separation between those two things so actually there's a whole midtail or like middle category where you can actually be successful Creator where you don't have to be the Mr Beast or any of these kind of top Echelon is that always been that way or that's a new thing you've seen I think it's always been that way it's just not the sexy exciting thing to talk about right well it's also not in anybody's mindset Nathan I think when people start out they think they have to get really big and and getting really big takes a long long time and most people just can't do the grind Mo most people who are diving in are not going to see meaningful results in 1 to two years especially if they don't have the habits required to show up consistently if you're already a professional in your industry you know how to show up you know how to write you know you know how to produce content and you decide I'm going to be a Creator then like totally you can get it in one to two years but if you're if you're coming in cold you know saying like I have this unrelated skill that I want to teach as a Creator and you don't already know how to get like the perfect Zoom setup and you know you're not struggling over what podcasting mic to use then then you're going to have much different results but the popular Narrative of this power law it's just because people don't want to pay attention to or they don't have the data for the the mid tier because it's not what's getting written about but I can see it right I see it firstand I have 50,000 customers paying for convert kit and we collect all of the Revenue data from every platform that they sell on and that you know that customer that has between I call it 5,000 and 100,000 email subscribers they're absolutely printing money relative to Their audience size and the thing is is because they can I mean I know you both are huge fans of email marketing you wouldn't work you know where you have in your careers if you didn't believe in it but being able to personalize messages to your audience being able to segment Target right like you can monetize in a huge way like here's an example there's a Creator named Oli abdall he has a fantastic YouTube channel podcast all that but the YouTube channel is the main thing and he's grown a big audience on email he did a YouTube course that did very very well before I share the numbers let me do a counterargument there's another Channel called yes Theory they are maybe five to 10 times as popular as Ali is they came out with a course and they I like it totally flopped they're teaching a course on like here's how to do YouTube totally flopped giant audience Ali abdall comes out with his course it's making $3 to4 million a year you know Allie is a power law Creator right he's big but yes the area is incredibly larger and so when you dive in on this you're like wait a second why is the small Creator printing money and the large creator has this big flop With Their audience and the thing is that oi did not promote his course on his YouTube channel he used his YouTube channel as top of funnel he got them into an email list he then segmented People based on what they're interested in he taught a bunch about here's how to start a YouTube channel here's what to do found this like you know you call it a niche of people who want to learn on YouTube but it's it was probably 5,000 people you know it was a lot of people and then he sold a high price course to them that was really good and really targeted and he made millions of dollars and so that's happening at smaller scales where the a CR is like hey I have 100,000 on Instagram and I can't sell a thing but then they're going down and targeting and finding the right thing for the right people to a subset you know 10,000 people on an email list where they can segment and tag and personalized and everything else and they're just printing money and so all these creators who are like there's no middle class like you're right there's no middle class on those platforms but if you bring those people email there's a thriving middle class okay so so one of one of the things if you're watching and you are like hey I I want to have at least some type of personal Revenue coming from a Creator is you have Nathan I think what you're telling everybody is like you need to decide what your top of the funnel is and that's probably some combination of YouTube or Instagram or Tik Tok and then you have some kind of mid funnel where you're going to actually monetize and and historically you're saying from all the data you see across 50,000 creators that's email and podcast is that what you're seeing yes so you got to think of it like a hub and spoke Model A lot of creators try to be on every platform and that doesn't work because you're going to spread yourself then or they'll go okay I'm only going to focus on email because that is where I the best engagement but there's a huge problem like email does not have a discovery algorithm it doesn't exist right like I promise you I've looked for a long time I think I have figured that out but we'll we'll come back to that in a second okay please so email is where you get the best engagement but there's no algorithm that's going to like if you have the best email it's like wow okay that's now trending on the email homepage like that's not a thing whereas a really great Twitter thread you know could legitimately be viewed by you know five 5 million people right LinkedIn all these other platforms Instagram Tik Tok Etc YouTube their whole thing is Discovery algorithms and so I think the most successful creators choose one social platform that they feel the best at and are most confident in they have a second that they're testing that they're playing with and then they are driving all of that to email so a common thing is you'll see YouTube as a primary Instagram as a secondary email as the Hub or if you're focused on written content Twitter is the primary and Linkedin as the secondary in the email Hub and I've seen some massive massive businesses you've seen people do that and capture email addresses of those two platforms because I've seen like anytime you promote on those platforms these days that stuff just doesn't do as well like that those all every platform seems to want to build like an inapp experience where they you know you see Tik Tok right like Tik Tok shops or incredible and they're incredible because the experience is within the same platform and even Google's search one of the last places which this whole entire goal is to get you somewhere else is moving towards no like you can't leave stay here we'll give you all the answers and I think AI chat is going to make that much worse but I'm definitely surprised to hear that like creators have been able to go from X and Linked In and build a great subscriber list of that because I haven't seen I've never really seen it work where you promote anything on these channels and at scale you can get people to sign up for something so I think that's interesting I love to kind of just hear about how that's been working yeah I see it work firsthand all the time I was just on a call yesterday with six or seven creators who were talking about how they've built their audiences on X and Linkedin and if you put a link in your initial post it's often going to not get the distribution that it would otherwise right so you'll see people do something like if I post something and it gets at least 200 likes and it has this momentum then I will reply with a lead magnet you know basically the traditional Playbook that's worked for so long it still works today so the the only difference is that you're generally not going straight to sharing a link you're providing a bunch of value on the platform and following up with a link to get more it's like the guest posting strategy where you're not just saying hey go you know jump over here to get my free guide to whatever topic you have to provide a ton of value in the guest post right and then you know say hey if you want to go deeper on product launches the thing is jump off here but the exact same strategies that have worked before always worked they there's just some very small tweaks on them the other thing is knowing that these algorithms are not going to show all your content to everyone and so effective content creators are going to post pretty often and then like there's a a Creator named Nick Huber who yep man here's someone's he's such a troll on twit it's hilarious his whole uh content strategy is to just elicit engagement through any means possible right so he has a very deliberate content strategy he's a little less trolling than he used to be he's also completely different in real life which I find wildly entertaining but he is one of those people he's not a powerlaw distribution Creator right from an audience size but he is absolutely printing money and so if you look at what he's doing he has the top of final posts on Twitter and in primarily where he is just trying to get views and attention right and so he'll post something about you know an HOA or right in his face and people like it just gets people fired up he he does a bunch of crazy real estate he say something inflammatory right and it'll go from there now down from there he'll have like meaningful business content as his like midlevel funnel where he's talking about hey this is what's working in my business here's some actual numbers you know here's a strategy you should Implement and then at the very bottom of the funnel he's got some very detailed Niche content right and this is all posted to Twitter but when you look at it like I learned more about bonus depreciation as a real estate tax strategy from a thread that he wrote where I was like I did not understand how that worked you know no CPA's article is going to get me to understand that but then he explains it and so the way that he thinks about it is top of funnel just trapped views midf funnel that content is focused on getting you know like demonstrating some of the expertise educating building that with a smaller group and then bottom of the funnel is to demonstrate that he is like a world-class expert at all of this and then do you want to be a customer of one of his companies co-invest with him in one of his funds on from there and that's it like that audience is worth $5 million a year or more there's actually a perfect description in that and why I think creators often beat Brands because the way you describe top of the funnel metal funnel and and then monetization that top funnel part you have to be okay with people not not reacting very well but like what brands often do is because they're so fearful of having people you know really say bad things about them that midf funnel piece is their topfunnel piece right and that's why that's actually why creators I perform brands in most of modern day channels is because no one wants the midf funnel stuff in those Creator awareness channels it's boring and people are just like looking for something to really react to either L disagree with or violently agree with and that's just not comfortable that's not a comfortable place for a brand to live right they don't like living in that place Kier let let me try something on both for both of you because we're talking about the Creator business and obviously Nathan is like hey I think it's hard to build a really high value venture-backed Creator focused business but man I think over the next decade the Creator economy is going to be huge well I think the reason for that that none of us nobody talks enough about is especially in the B2B landscape these B2B creators are disrupting all of these old school Niche media and training organizations right like these really obscure private Equity rolled up media companies that have 30 340 different little like Niche magazines and newsletters across different things and idiots like me were always like oh brands are going to disrupt those Publications those training training things because those companies they're kind of boring they're stodgy they have this host of kind of like average writers and you kind of don't know who's behind it and brands have the authority they can tell the story and then what we're actually saying is Well Brands can't disrupt because they can't actually do the provocation the point of the extreme point of view the kind of top 25% that is necessary to be relevant in a market that is very Dynamic and changing more than ever before and so creators are going to step in and fill that void and all that money that was being spent across all these media companies all of these training companies which by the way they're also small nobody's really rolling up I would if I bet if we went and sized it it's a massive like you know it's probably a 20 to30 billion dollar market like that's what's happening I think it's absolutely happening that the not only is the attention going to a different place than it was before but also it's just it's way more effective right we talked earlier to Market as an individual than as a brand I disagree with the premise that you have to be inflammatory or that that even necessarily works the best right and so that a a Creator is saying things different than what a brand could say because there's all of these creators that like are only entirely positive and are even more successful like in the same industry right if you look at sahill Bloom on on Twitter and Linkedin yeah he only says super positive things and he's got a million followers and his business is doing insanely well good so then Nathan can we do the before after what is the void creators of feeling that brands are having a hard time fing and if you're a brand and you want to be more like a Creator do these things if you're Creator and you want to be successful do these things like you work with the best creators in the world like you have more insight into this than anybody else like what's what's kind of the the before after or or the kind of the difference between those two buckets of people are out there trying to capture influence well I think the first thing is use creators and like Elevate people within your brand right this is something that HubSpot has done really really well both in you know your own content but then also like with the hubs podcast Network and and all of that where you're really able to have creators show up in a way right there are individuals that I can follow with convertkit we both do that both with you know our content right my what I what I'm creating what like Charlie prangley our creative director she's got 250,000 subscrib ders on YouTube right she is really welln in the design space when she comes out and talks about like here's how I use convertkit here's any of those things right it gets a ton of traffic and attention so both do it with you know your internal employees and then also do it with your customers right get creators who you know in our case our customers are creators so this is easier yeah right I have a a coffee table book here that is all of these stories of creators that we've told right this is how creators are using our product and you see that more and more where Brands will deliberately hire creators and say hey you're the the front person for this or here's the network of creators that are the front person there was a education startup um that I saw who deliberately hired someone who was already growing on Twitter and Instagram related to um you know alternative education and and all that and they're like okay you know we're now paying you I don't know what but say it's $100,000 a year 150,000 a year if you're hiring someone who's like growing in their career not like at the very very top and then you basically as a brand it's not that you like through your brand account try to copy what works as a Creator you just hire creators and go from there yeah notion is a great company right you look at all of this content if you if you go on Tik Tok and Instagram and YouTube and search notion content right there I think there are like over 100 million views on Tik Tok for the hashtag notion or if it's not that high it's pretty close and you might think oh that's just just because of their product right that's just how how it works no no no it is carefully engineered behind the scenes there's this guy Ben who is I think one of the best in the world at at this I wouldn't be surprised if you two both know him and he has like his creator and influencer program where he's working he's not working with the biggest creators he's working with ones who are even super small creating great content yeah he's building longterm relationships with them he's you know paying for a lot of content and then people see you know another Creator is like wow this Creator made notion content and did really well I think I will do the same and so that builds it up whereas the first Creator got paid to produce it right and so those kind of flywheels that you build work really really well and it's basically Brands working with creators rather than just trying to copy the best practices what about Aqua hyon creators basically having those people inter to your team versus but also buying the IP is basically what you're saying instead of hiring them also like buy the I don't know about the I actually just think like would be yeah I know but I you have to the way so I think there's two versions of that there's one where the IP is something worthwhile like actually something meaningful to you has enough volume or something that it's actually useful to you I don't know if there's a lot of creators when you are a brand like if that is true like the thing that they have is a thing that's going to be meaningful to your business but they themselves like if they can bring that in and do something some version of that bigger and better and you give them more resources like it's at the end of the day it's a pretty expensive hire but you end up overpaying because you think it's a unique person to work within your company you can Kickstart something but the problem with only working through creators you don't build any of that Talent internally you're continually dependent upon external people to like be you know they kind of repres present your a brand in some ways yeah I think that you either need to work with a network of creators where you're not riant on a single person right because if you build your entire brand or on one person who you know is not a co-founder does not have substantial Equity then that that could be a single point of failure the aqua hire thing is really interesting to me because the question I like to ask is for any given bit of attention what's the highest Roi place you could direct and so it's a good question creators are the absolute best in the world at getting attention right like a a million views 10 million you know like we are so good at it and on one hand creators monetized really really well where you're talking about someone who is in you know maybe a small Niche they could be teaching writing which maybe historically is a $60,000 a year job like somewhere in the United States and now here they are making $600,000 a year because they have this course that's doing really well maybe have sponsorships in their newsletter any of those things so you know I'm looking this person who like say has 50,000 people on their email list and is making $600,000 a year and we're like wow they have that attention and they're monetizing really really well like that's amazing on the other hand I think creators are the worst at monetization and the reason is because they're creating something that's so much more valuable have you guys ever had it where you're you're bidding on keywords or something like in in Google search results and someone is out bidding you and you can't figure out how they can pay as much yes and it's normally because they're losing money well often they're losing money yeah but often there's something going on Downstream like down in their funnel that they're doing that you're not right there's an upsell somewhere in there their their turn is way better than yours is and so this is the same thing with creators where a certain audience to a Creator is worth whatever amount of money let's use the writing course example selling a writing course for $1,000 right in my my attention to paid product funnel I basically cap out at $1,000 if we go a different direction should we sell a different kind of product right that attention might be worth way more to a brand so now you have these creators who are saying like hold on how could I monetize this attention to the best possible way give you an example there's a Blog Mark's Daily Apple it's a like health and wellness blog written by Mark sisen in 2013 to 2015 he's got 100 to 50,000 subscribers he's making $1 to $2 million a year combination of AD sales affiliate revenue and some of his own digital products great monetization wildly successful you know in like the Paleo Health Diet recipe space great win my question is when you look at that audience is that the best monetization 150,000 subscribers 1 to2 million a year looks great but what else could you do with that what he did I think is absolutely fascinating where he said okay what does my audience truly want yes there's recipes yes there's tips but what if they could just buy the product right and so everyone's saying like hey this paleo friendly salad dressing thanks for the recipe but it's kind of a pain in the ass to make can I just buy it and so he goes and starts a company doing that he you know effectively like hits his minimum order quantities and all of this off of his audience he can sell all the the first first units he can get distribution in grocery stores because when he talks to a buyer right say Whole Foods they're like hey we're going to we're going to test this out we're going to put it in a couple stores see see how it goes if it does well we'll roll it out you know uh regionally and then maybe Nationwide and he can go cool that sounds good by the way which stores and they're like oh this one in Austin and all that he's like great right and he goes into his email tool it says like email everyone within 50 miles of this location and say hey guys I need a big favor like go buy as much you know of our product as possible so he goes back and talks to the buyer at the you know at the grocery store it's like hey how how' the test gun it sold out like he's like no amazing no way people people must love right so he gets National Distribution on from there so the company is called Primal kitchen and he built it it took him two years great business from launch to exit he sold it to craft foods for $200 million and so if you look he had a well monetized audience but that attention was worth infinitely more and so we created you know basically a hundred years of value in 2 years based on that and so to your aloh hire question I believe for most creators there's a different business there's a much better way to monetize and so if you can acquire those creators or hire them to build a software company right should you sell digital courses or should you sell convert K as a SAS product right my my lifetime value you know SAS is a better business is a better business model we know that isn't this the whole end game which is like the Creator moves up the value chain right so they start with courses and then to to that person who there it's like well I should just build a product right like in B2B Kip and I have talked about this for some time and B2B is trickier right it's easier I think in consumer to like go build go do the product than it is a lot of times in B2B because you know you're building software a lot of creators do not know how to like build a software product I'm starting to see it now like there was two Founders I've talked to rais C stage deals both of them started with audience like they had a newsletter someone else had another large audience on another Channel and they you they got so much information from that they're like oh there's a product in here and then because they already had the audience it was easier for them to like Kickstart the product and start to get like feedback make sure they were building it in the right way have something like from day one they've had people in their sphere using that product and so it does feel like that's the kind of Natural Evolution of all this which is like the smart Creator is just continue to move up the value chain and to build higher monetized products yeah I think that's that's happening a lot especially as you're getting all these examples of it right where people are saying you know if I sell a product that's actually worth more than selling attention and seeing it at the highest levels with like take Ryan Reynolds for example right early on getting paid to do TV commercials he's getting paid I say a million dollars for a a brand endorsement deal and then at some point he realizes like wait this is actually worth more to you like this attention that givu is worth more than a million dollars obviously otherwise you wouldn't pay for it you know how much more is it worth and so he eventually decides okay I'm going to buy into companies I'm going to promote that like own equity and then promote that myself and you know the exits in mmobile for 1.3 billion and Aviation Jin for 6 or 700 million prove that his attention was wildly valuable I think I think the prime example of this now is what Brian Johnson's doing right you have Brian Johnson if folks aren't familiar he the guy's trying to live live forever he wants to live to his 150 150 200 and but he's doing exactly what you both are saying right he invested all of this time and effort in like improving his health and he's basically just creating around it YouTube Tik Tok he's got a newsletter and then what did he get he got a ton of feedback just like the Primal kitchen guy of like oh man you're right finding this olive oil that's really healthy is really hard oh well great guys I'll just sell that olive oil oh finding the r chocolate's really hard I'll just sell you that chocolate right and it all comes down to one you have such a big audience that you can find product Market fit very clearly right you can you can basically drisk product Market fit fit and then Kieran it came back to what you said which is once you get once you have a big enough audience you just get feedback really fast and you can iterate on a product and make your product better than anybody else's because you have those like really quick really powerful feedback loops that are really hard when you're just all right I've got this product I'm going to go out and talk to people about it and try to get them to use it and over a year I'll get enough feedback where it's like people like Brian Johnson can get the feedback they need in like a week instead of a year you get to over this cold start problem which most products don't overcome like it might be a great product but or it might have the ability to iterate to become a great product but it doesn't get to last long enough because it doesn't have you know enough early sales or momentum or it doesn't get enough feedback right it doesn't get in front of enough people I think you also touched on the difference between the the creators of the brands that succeed long term and the ones that don't there's a lot of people uh who look at celebrities Who come out with a product and they're like oh I should do that too right The Rock has tequila whoever else like lisis Hamilton F1 thousand people have tequila yeah everybody has it right but I think the difference is that The Rock went in and like promoted it like like he went all in on it it wasn't like oh I have this attention let me pass them over there and so what you're talking about is using that attention and really diving in and crafting the product understanding how it's perceived and everything else and that's the difference basically we're going to see the trend continue if someone's like you know basically throw away brands that they're building up and testing and the ones that will be really successful are the ones who use their privileged position with an audience to get better information and better iterations than anyone else by the way if you're a Creator you still have to have a good business right like if you look at hello Bellow with bankrupt this week right so that's Christen Bell and Dak Shepard two celebrities started this diaper company and it turn you know what turns out turns out it's really hard to make diapers like I saw a big breakdown of the bankruptcy and they're like oh Proctor and Gamble has a100 million machine to make their diapers because it's really hard to manufacture right and so it's like oh well cool I'm glad you passionate about your kids and a passionate about diapers but like it's actually really hard and really expensive and part of where creators are going to fail is in not picking businesses that they can actually execute on for Their audience and make a good product it turns out there's two things to compete against Network effects and diaper making machines so your two Moes as a company actually I don't think the end point is like moving up the value stack I think maybe for maybe unfortunately I think we're going to start to see the endpoint creators in in politics and presidents and like you already see it happening that like people who can use and wield these channels they just have so much Authority and ways to wield that power that I suspect we we won't just see Creator Le businesses which we already do today we're going to see like Creator Le politics and I think that is going to be a wild and iy and interest in moral world to live in all right Nathan before we let you go you work with the most successful creators in the world what are what are a couple of your like top lessons from those creators you've shared a lot in today's show but if if if folks are hang with us to the end what are a couple of things that you would say hey you got to keep these top of mind you got to execute these things if you're going to be a great Creator yeah I think there's three things first you have to stick with it longer than most people would think is reasonable right you're going to see that trait in SAS in marketing but it's especially true as a Creator and I think most creators who don't make it are the ones who gave up like a year in a year and a half in or they they focus on things sporadically and so the people that I see get a lot of traction are showing up every single day for two years minimum like you're not even allowed to evaluate is this worth doing until you've shown up every day for two years the second thing is the best creators are finding a way to personalize their message for first to push content to Their audience and second to personalize their message to specific members of Their audience right and so that is really being able to segment through email right I'm going to capture as many subscribers as I can and then I'm going to talk to them differently based on what they're interested in what they've purchased from me Etc right as as B2B uh business operators we know this very very well right you would not blast the same message to everyone at every stage in your like sales Pipeline and so don't do it when you're going B Toc in the same way and then I think the third thing is really thinking about what's the most valuable place that I can direct this attention I mentioned sahill blo it before he I think is the most fascinating Creator because he is in an undercover way making an insane amount of money off of an audience so on one hand he's got a million followers on Twitter 500,000 on his newsletter and you're like okay so you can monetize that you know maybe $100,000 a month if he did products we could get that up higher but what he's actually doing is he went through and he looked at what am I spending money on as a Creator and he went down the list and he said okay I'm hiring I've got a video editing agency I've got an email marketing agency to help me with you know growth and putting out these lead magnets and and all of that design right he's going through all these things to do all all of his cost centers as a Creator and he said great I'm going to start agencies for every single one of these and so in the last 11 months he has started eight agencies many with the same operator right so he's hired people to do it he provides all of the deal flow for this he's partnered with other creators right so him Sam par and Cody Sanchez have a agency called viral cuts which is making Clips right and these agencies are now at an $8 million a year run rate they're all recurring Revenue they all use the same business model and his whole thing is like I have this attention what can I point it to and so if you click through like we talked about you know these social platforms like a carousel works well in LinkedIn so he's got a carousel about like eight mental models to think better about decision- making whatever it is if you flip through to the second to last slide it's going to say hey why don't you you know if you enjoyed this content sign up for my newsletter that's the call the action we all expect then if you click to the very last slide it says and if you want to create designs like this this is the agency that did it for me which of course is one of his agencies of course he has yes and so that like is insane monetization and every single agency that he operates has they all have one problem they have more leads than they can onboard which has a virtuous cycle where the more someone can't have something the more they want it and so they're all like he'd be at a $20 million a year run rate if he was comfortable scaling this up faster but really he's saying like no I'm going to let leads sit in the pipeline we're going to make sure we can crush it on execution go from there so I think that third lesson is really think hard about what is the most valuable thing that I can create not just short-term cash flow but like long-term Enterprise Value that I could direct this audience towards distribution is undefeated distribution is undefeated everyone never forget it all right this has been a Creator Deep dive please hit subscribe on YouTube If you L this hit us up at a comment if you have feedback on today's show it was so awesome to have you today Nathan and as always we'll see everybody real soon on marketing Against the Grain this data is wrong every freaking time have you heard of HubSpot HubSpot is a CRM platform where everything is fully integrated well I can see the client's whole history calls support tickets emails and here's a task from 3 days ago I totally missed H spot grow better
