How to Discern the Spirits

welcome back to the word on fire show I'm Brandon Vaught the host and the content director here at word on fire Catholic ministries joining us is the founder and head of word on fire Bishop Robert Barron Bishop Baron good to always talk with you hey Brandon here someday I'll actually get to that room where you are this your office I've never actually been there this is a little this is in deep in the cavity Middle earth so you're somewhere near in Rohan Riders of Rohan but in the books above your head there somebody I'd like to see all that in person listen this past weekend you did another one of your big study programs you've done several of these over the years one on David the King one on the mystery of God several of them on different topics but prophet King priests prophet King the one you just recorded though was on the sacraments we just recorded it last week and it'll be available sometime next year but tell us about the filming how it went what you think what a joy it was we went down to a great church in Hollywood called Blessed Sacrament appropriately but one of the most beautiful churches in LA and it fits about 1,500 people so we got a big crowd filled the place and I gave six talks on the sacraments each one about 25 30 minutes long you know Brandon over the years we've asked a parishes if we were to do a study program what would you like us to do what would be most helpful to you far in a way the most requested was seven sacraments so that's why we did it and it was just a joy a great crowd great enthusiasm we work with spirit juice and I often have like my production team there from Chicago and they did a great job and there was enthusiasm I must say they are almost uniquely exhausting those experiences you know when you're coming out in front of this big crowd and it's not just giving a talk but you know okay I'll give this talk and we'll be over but it's a talk kind of for the ages because it's being filmed so you feel a special kind of pressure when I finished boy I was just ready to go to bed basically you know but it was a great day so stay tuned a word on fire we'll update you with all the progress about this new film series but it should come out sometime in in 2020 I would think yeah yeah okay well for today's topic we're gonna be discussing how to discern the spirits and and more generally how to discern the things of God how to know how and where God's moving in your life how to make decisions and alignment with God's will I wanted to start off with this little precursor story so a few days ago on my Facebook page I posted a message where I acknowledge that lots of people have been asking me which Catholic websites and podcasts and YouTube channels should I follow they say it's it's really confusing there's a huge landscape of so many personalities how do I know which ones are worth following and I said well what I typically tell people is you know first of all the prerequisites of truth and being faithful to the Magisterium all that basic stuff but then beyond that you need to discern whether this is of the Spirit of God and I laid out a couple ways to do that one is using the fruits of the spirit so you know when I was five right when I listen to this video channel for example does it engender love joy peace patience kindness dude does that person or host exhibit those things all that stuff but then the second one which was seem to be more controversial as I quoted a line from st. Ignatius as Spiritual Exercises his great spiritual manual and the line real briefly it said it is characteristic of the evil spirit to harass with anxiety to afflict with sadness and to raise obstacles backed by fallacious reasoning that disturb the soul and so my point was that if you're experiencing these things it could be a sign that this stuff this platform this channel this podcast is of a different spirit than the Holy Spirit so I thought that was pretty innocuous but what I was stunned by in the comment box that followed it was the number of people who concluded after reading all this so you're basically saying just follow your feelings and like if it makes you happy it's a good thing if it makes you anxious or sad it's a bad thing and we went back and forth many times several commenters but it seems like this area is is fuzzy for a lot of people between discerning spirit and following feelings and I know both of us want to point out right from the beginning we're not hitting these two things against each other like feelings and like other sources of discernment feelings aren't opposed to the movements of the Spirit but I thought for this episode we could dig deep into all of this stuff and make all the proper distinction so maybe let's start out 30,000 foot view st. Ignatius of Loyola Spiritual Exercises what are the basics we should know about these well of course I just filmed an Ignatius last summer and some I've got those places vividly in mind where he was from and Monterey so the the cave where he developed really this this method of discerning the spirits Ignatius born in 1491 in the basque country northwest Spain wants to be a courtier a soldier and kind of a worldly figure is wounded severely in a battle in Pamplona he's fighting for the against the French and during his recuperation he undergoes this massive call it not so much conversion but reversion reawakening of his faith which leads him eventually to this cave in Manresa which i had the privilege of visiting while he lived there for nine months he grew in his ability I'd say to understand what God wanted him to do with his life it was the beginning of this process of the discernment of spirits it gives rise eventually to the spiritual exercises which Ignatius works on the rest of his life and becomes the cornerstone of Jesuit spirituality to this day you know where a lot of it begins and maybe it's good for us to begin here - is Ignatius himself said when he was recovering from his wounds he wanted books to distract him and in the house there were two types of books there were books of kind of chivalric derring-do you know books about knights and so on that's what what he wanted that was his life he read them and read them with pleasure but afterwards he said he found himself kind of dry and bored and listless but the other books that were there were books about Christ and the Saints and he read those he said also with great interest but the difference was later as he mused on those stories those books he continued to be filled with a sense of of peace and joy and purpose and he says in his autobiography that was the beginning of this art and practice of the discernment of spirits and that's by the way one of the most important indicators and this one that I work with a lot look anything you're doing anytime of the day or night is gonna fill you with some sense of pleasure otherwise you wouldn't be doing it right so so whatever's right in front of you typically something that you think oh I like this is good but then how do you feel about it later so later on as you think back on that activity or that statement or that bit of behavior and you say oh gosh I wish I had done that or now I feel so kind of disappointed with myself and listless and so on other things you do and you you enjoy them while you're doing them and then you think back later and say yeah that was great I'm glad I did that I still feel lifted up by that it might be a year later you think back and say yeah I I still feel uplifted by that that in a way is the first rule the first experience of discernment that Ignatius himself had and I've recommended it for years to people is you know a lot of people for example will experience an attraction to the priesthood or religious life at some point most most Catholics do at least they did years ago all right when you're experiencing that you're probably feeling hey this is kind of cool but I feel good about this but how about you know a year later how about even six months later when you think back on that period are you still filled with a sense of peace and joy or you feel like that it's kind of silly or now that doesn't do much for me so that's one of the ways that's that's how it began with Ignatius and I think that's still a valid approach but just to finish your answer to your question having the Manresa experience having begun the spiritual exercises having directed many people for years ignatius develops a number of these famous rules for the discernment of spirits you know a basic assumption still an important one is we are all engaged in something like a spiritual warfare right that there's the good spirit the holy spirit but as the Bible itself points out not all spirits are good spirits not all the things that lead us or inspire us or draws our good and so we have to do this act of discernment is that if the holy spirit or is that from a not so holy spirit and that is a permanently important feature of a Christian life and Ignatius and other of the great masters help us through that thicket when I was sort of just getting into my faith as an early Christian I think the way that I approached God's will was it was sort of a binary thing that I either heard and followed or I didn't and it was quiet and so I was always like just trying to hear God's voice what does God want me to do what is God leading me but it wasn't for several years that and when I discovered Ignatius his approach to this whole thing that I realized there are actually multiple impulses and voices and spirits and promptings going on that require you to sift through them it's not like there's just one that you either hear or don't hear you kind of gotta sift through all these impulses in your life yeah and think of you know in the Gospel of John when we have the great image of the Good Shepherd and and the Good Shepherd here is the voice of the sheep and the sheep hear his voice and it's always struck me is a very interesting image because think of all the voices branded that are around us all the time you know voices literal voices people hey do this do that more metaphorical voices things they're leading us and so on trying to get our attention can we hear amidst all of that the voice the voice the voice of Christ who is calling us to follow him and it takes some discernment that's a our old kind of image it's an ear image right hearing think of someone who's got a very low level of musical ability and then someone at a very refined level they say that some of those great conductors you know they're conducting this big 80 piece Orchestra and there's one violinist who's who's one string is out of tune and you know you're you're the OB string or whatever is out of tune well that's someone with a hyper refined sense of hearing well the great masters ignatius comes to mind our people like that they have such a hyper refined sense of listening they can hear the voice of the Lord amidst all the cacophony of competing voices so st. Ignatius composes these Spiritual Exercises and it's often said they're not so much meant to be read it's not like a manual it's something you you do it experience usually in the form of a retreat I think all Jesuits correct me if I'm wrong Bishop it required to go through this 30-day spiritual exercise which have you have you ever gone on one of those retreats have you not thirty days but I've done the eight-day retreat a number of times and the eighth day is kind of a it's a mini version of the 30 day you go through the rhythm that Ignatius wanted so I've had a lot of experience with it but I'll confess I'm a little afraid of the 30 day it's such a commitment of not just of time but it's a great spiritual commitment to do that but I've done the eight days several times in the Spiritual Exercises there's several components you're reflecting on the life of Christ there's several different types of prayer experiences but there's one section that's relevant to our show topic here where Ignatius lists out 14 rules for spiritual discernment and they're real short and pithy you can read all of them in like two or three minutes but again they're meant to be experienced and discussed with the spiritual director it's not like you just read them and you got them but these 14 rules the first two of them I think are among the most interesting little passages of in any spiritual book I've read because what Ignatius describes is that the discernment of spirits operates differently depending on where you are in the spiritual life so if for example he said you're kind of just beginning to be drawn to God but there's still mortal sin or serious sins blocking your life the experian is that you encounter should be approached differently than if you're further on in your spiritual life and you're already committed to following the will of God in fact he says in in the first case when you're just sort of still stuck in mortal sin the evil spirits will make sin appealing and good and you'll feel good feelings when you are participating in sinful behavior while on the other hand good behavior might sting and bite and feel difficult it's feel like you're you're moving against the grain in a way but then in that second scenario where you have a person who's already moving on through purification from sin it's just the opposite the the evil spirit saddens you and puts obstacles in your way and makes you feel like you're stuck in the spiritual life you're not moving you might experience what he calls desolation while on the other hand the good spirit often consoles you and especially when you're doing the good it inspires good feelings and you what do you make of that I mean have you sensed that with people you've worked with in spiritual direction oh yeah and you know that's an old principle goes back to Aristotle but Thomas repeats it you know quit quit retribute or Secunda modem or chip en tus or chip yeah that's what I was gonna say I was gonna say that exact same thing which is it's a very cool I mean whatever is received is received according to the mode of the recipient so that's an ancient principle way before you know content company and maternity whatever is received is received according to your mode and so how is the grace of God received now read Flannery O'Connor if you want some of the you know graphic details there the grace of God might be received as a terrible upheaval of your life it might be received as an invasion it might be something overwhelmingly painful because you're off kilter and so God's grace is trying to set you right and then turn around you know if you are walking the right path how is God's grace can be receivable it's like a oasis like a Fountain of Life you know let me depart just for a minute from Ignatius for another great Spanish mystic of that same period it's interesting to me how Spain 16th century comes to the height of its political and cultural influence right but also the height of its spiritual power think of Ignatius John of the Cross Teresa of Avila all flourishing of the same country the same time you know well I'm thinking of John of the Cross and I've often used this with folks John says at the beginning of the relationship with God God often gives a lot of what Ignatian would call consolations in other words you're just starting off on the journey and so you're excited about it and going to mass is is cool and and praying the office I love this and and you read the lives of the Saints and you're filled with excitement about it good that's the way of John of the Cross says it often begins in the spiritual life God wants to draw you in right but at a decisive moment and it shouldn't depress you it should actually kind of excite you and a decisive moment John the Cross says God will withdraw those kind of happy consolations now why because you're meant not to fall in love with good feelings about God you're meant to fall in love with God and there is a difference right there might be happy feelings accompanying the experience of God great I'm totally in favor that when it happens but I'm not meant to fall in love with those because the trouble is then I can get addicted to the good feelings and when the will of God is leading me in a direction that will not produce good feelings then I'm gonna fall away so John the Cross says sometimes don't experience that as as oh gosh God has abandoned me no on the contrary it's God is trying to move you to a deeper place and everyone in the spiritual order John would use language of dryness or dark night etc everyone is drawn through it at a time like that you know I think I'm like Brandon go back to when I was a kid and and the discovery of st. Thomas Aquinas which I've talked about a million times probably boring everybody with it by now but talk about an extraordinary moment of consolation the excitement I felt as a kid as I was this world opened up to me and I was exploring it or I think of when I read a seven story mountain as a sixteen year old and I can still remember what that felt like it leaks the excitement of it it was exciting to read the story and then to begin to imagine myself walking this spiritual path was was wonderful was a great joy now did that stay with me in that same sense all my life no not the same sense you know that that falls away because now God is drawing you into alright here's what it really is like to follow my will what I'm gonna be asking of you you know so for John of the Cross that's a certain detachment from the feelings that accompany for both John of the Cross and Ignatius and all the great figures what's the bottom line what is awakening in us a deeper love for God and for neighbor there is your criterion and that's behind Galatians 5 that's behind everything else is and that's that's finally how Ignatius defines a consolation by the way it's not in terms of emotions primarily a consolation is what is gonna lead you to a deeper commitment to the love of God and love of neighbor when that's happening trust it trust it you're on the right path now turn around what's a desolation not primarily feelings of aridity a desolation is something that's moving you away from the love of God in the love of neighbor when you're on that path and look we're all sinners we all get on that path get off of it you know that's the path you should be aware of you be wary of but that's the ultimate if people are looking for the ultimate criterion that's it that's it what awakens love in you what awakens greater love that's the path God wants you on I mentioned at the outset this confusion between spiritual consolation and desolation and feelings that a lot of people just reduce the former to the latter yeah how do how do feelings fit into this whole thing I know like colloquially we've been using the language of you know I feel this right feel that or you feel God doing this but how do pet of feelings relate to all this they're part of it you know God made us body and soul he gave us minds he gave us bodies he gave us passions he gave us feelings good so they can become vehicles of his presence and his communication as you suggest correctly don't reduce it to that as though I'm just kind of reading it at the purely emotional level at the same time don't reject it or denigrate it God can indeed speak through our feelings those feelings I had as a kid reading Thomas Aquinas and Thomas Merton those feelings of kind of excitement a desire to go back to those books and read again and you know I think of myself am I my little ten speed bike riding up to the library this is no I know for people under 40 library what's that by its library like libraries a big building with their books in it what's a book and I'd go there what's a book it's just ink with pages symbols so writing and I remember I distinctly I signed what 14 15 years old and I'm writing with a kids enthusiasm to the library to get this big tome of Thomas Aquinas and I'd bring it home with with tremendous excitement to read well I don't want for a second to denigrate that or say oh well you know how childish at home no no I think God God was speaking to me through those exciting feelings because he finally what did it do finally it awakened me I to a deeper and more abiding love for God and for neighbor and because finally if you want to trace it all the way those feelings those bike trips to the library led me to where I am right now they led me to a life of dedication to the church and to Christ and to God and His people so I think God sure can and does speak through our feelings but just don't reduce it always be attentive to the whole of your experience but finally how is love the divine love speaking to you through all those it reminds me when you've often spoken about John Henry Newman illative sense that yeah this illative sense of coming to know something is not based merely on logic or merely on feelings but it's the converging synthesis of all these factors it's digital discernment kind of a similar thing yeah you know it's a question priests get asked a lot is you came a priest and most of us don't like that question here's why because it's practically impossible to give oh here's why let me do this mine too and I say to married people who ask that question hey if I say how come you Mary Kathleen and just left it like how come you married her well I mean Corey you're gonna give me a whole conger ease of reasons a whole slew of experiences and you know so same with the priesthood is how can we came a priest well this there's that that that experience this person and that book and that feeling and that and so the discerning person is and that's where Newman you're right is a good example if you're you're assessing all of these converging arguments all sort of tending in the same direction and that's very much I'd say what happened to me as I was discerning the priesthood they all these strands kind of came together but it takes time which is why I'm a heck I was of seminary for mater and rector for a long time you don't want someone showing up hey father I'm ready I've discerned I'm ready to go or day me tomorrow no no we're gonna slow down and we're gonna really take time to piece this thing together but Newman's a good comparison there well let's close with a maybe a practical application of this whole discerning of spirits I know a lot of people when they get into the spiritual exercises or the discernment of spirits they have a specific decision or event that they're trying to figure out should I become a priest or get married should I you know the example I used earlier should I follow this group or this video-channel or not can you give us maybe an example from your own life of how you've applied this discernment of spirits well I mean the best example is discerning my own vocation and I would say I've just been describing it kind of generically but I would say finally it was the application of the criterion of love what did I think was the path of greatest love for me MS priesthood I'll say this too and I think this is true for married people anyone that's discerned a vocation there was something about the desire for the priesthood that would not let me go and trust me I won't go into details but there were times in the process when I I did turn away from it I thought no no bet that's not what I want that's not good and it came back and when it came back it was accompanied by consolations to use Ignatian terms it was accompanied by deep consolation like yeah that that's it and then then I would move along and maybe turn away again it would come back with deep consolation once I got to the seminary I can say this was pretty with good confidence it I was on the beam once I was in the seminary that was it and that's 30 how many years ago when I was first starting the seminary and it's it's never left me I've always felt that sense of deep consolation around it you know I don't if I told I think it might have told the story another podcast but he that's kind of a grand one or discerning your whole path of life but I remember years ago it was a Sunday and I given a homily in this parish right which I prepared for that week and I gave it I thought it was ok wasn't a home run but was a solid single kind of homily and then I was driving a half hour north to another church where I had mass and fully intending to give the same homily right and I got there a little bit early so I parked just a bit away from the church I was just sort of musing and praying and it's just with this extraordinary sense of clarity and I'd say spiritual joy and excitement well Cana me was don't give that sermon give the one from six years ago see what you've done the you've been a priest for a long time you know the readings come around with a cycle so you say oh yeah six years ago I did a whole different homily on this one it came to me don't do the one you planned do this one okay and and all I could say it was accompanied by a deep spiritual joy and excitement so I did I gave the other homily now what I like him is that no one came to me effort is it Oh father that was the life-changing homily I don't know I don't know why the Holy Spirit gave me that inspiration but I'm pretty convinced that he did you know that was a sort of on-the-spot discernment and I'll stay with that little phrase deep joy and spiritual excitement is something that I've learned to recognize as the mark of the Holy Spirit you another example Brandon go back to March of this year when it was first suggested to me by a mutual friend of ours that I should write this book that became the letter to a suffering Church it was nowhere on my radar screen I wasn't thinking about it at all the minute he made the suggestion to me I thought yeah yeah that's the book I should write I was filled with I'd say a sense of joy and spiritual excitement about it and I've learned to recognize that as the mark of the Holy Spirit Ignatius by the way calls that consolation without cause beautifully like a consolation that it comes out of nowhere what caused that I don't know but but I just had this feeling of excitement and spiritual joy that's one of the signs of the Holy Spirit now we've obviously barely scratched the surface we've talked about this for maybe 2025 minutes people go on 30-day retreats unpacking all this but if you want more there's a really good book called the discernment of spirits and Ignatian guide for everyday living by father Timothy Gallagher Gallagher he's done a lot of great work popularizing the Ignatian spirituality for ordinary people so if you want to dig deeper into this discernment of spirits that's I think the go-to boy he's good [Music] [Music] well it's time now for a question from one of our listeners if you got one for Bishop Baron send it in we'd love to hear it just visit ask Bishop Baron comm you can record the question on your phone your computer your tablet and every episode we pick one to air here on the show today we're hearing from Stephen in Salt Lake City Utah and he's got a question about discernment so very apropos here Steven squadron hi my name is Steven from Salt Lake City Utah I am currently considering a vocation to the priesthood however I'd also like a wife and children obviously I can't have both Bishop Baron how do I discern which of these impulses is what I want and which of these impulses is what God wants from me thank you yeah good I mean that's that's where things come down to to the practical huh you know everything we've talked about but I'd recommend a couple things to you one is go to Mass every day go to Mass every day with that question in mind Lord what do you want me to do what path do you want me to walk then at Mass listen with great attention to the readings for the day and what are they telling you but ask him ask him in a very specific way what do you want me to do secondly I would say get a good spiritual director you got to talk this through see a tight little story when I was at the Youth synod a year ago I would tell the person's name but a very prominent Dominican and the Dominicans said you know all this talk about discernment I'd like a little more objective Dominican truth and what I like he was doing the old Jesuit Dominican fight you know but the point there is the danger of a hyper stress on discernment of spirits is it becomes very individualistic and very subjective istic Here I am and the privacy of my think of even Ignatius and is the little cave and Manresa a bit there like like Descartes in his heated room and ohm coming up with the cozy toe there there is something about the more modern approaches that are very interior again this finest it goes but my dominican friend it was pointing to you no Dominican truth speaks very objectively now to your question it's not just what I'm discerning but it can be what we're discerning together what a good spiritual friend as you're both looking outside of yourselves at the issue see you're trying to find the truth of it outside of your own private discernment so getting a good spiritual director is really key so daily Mass spurts director spend time before the bus sacrament and then finally keep the question foremost your mind which of the two paths as I'm envisioning them is gonna lead me to greater love of God a neighbor that's the one you want yeah and there's a lot of ways to do that discernment but that's the question which is gonna lead me to a greater love of God a neighbor that's the one that God wants for you well if you've been following word on fire over the past month you have been hearing a lot about st. John Henry Newman who is just canonized a couple weeks ago we've got footage from the canonization bishop Barron's lecture at Oxford a Q&A about Newman but as we wind down the month of October here I wanted to mention this website we created it's word on fire dot Institute slash Newman you'll not only find all the videos of the things I just mentioned but for the next three days until October 31st the end of the month we've made the John Henry Newman episode from our pivotal player series free free so the end of October so if you haven't seen that yet you want to go and watch it now before it expires at the end of October after that the only way you'll be able to watch it is through our word on fire digital platform or by joining the word on fire Institute one final shout out to one of our great word on fire patrons kale Robert watch us I believe tell me if I got your name right there kale he's from Newton Kansas kale thanks so much for supporting our show if you want to join kale please visit word on fire show.com slash patron become a supporter of this show well thanks so much for listening we'll see you next week on the word on fire show you [Music]

Channel: Bishop Robert Barron

Views: 229,758

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Id: jzYN2hMqLI4

Length: 33min 1sec (1981 seconds)

Published: Mon Nov 11 2019