Healing After a Homosexual Lifestyle In Seminary w/ Marco Casanova

Marco nice to have you on the show Matt thanks for having me pleasure it's a it's a great thing to be here yeah yeah you're from Kansas or Kansas City but I live on the Missouri side because Kansas City spans both Kansas and Missouri yeah so I live on the Missouri side well it's lovely to have you um I'm really pumped about having this conversation me too I kind of like that we didn't get to spend a lot of time beforehand because I want to get to know you and I want to but it'll be more fresh this way amen so for those who haven't heard of you could you just sort of sum up your story in maybe a minute or so yeah so Marco Casanova I'm associate director of desert stream Ministries which is based in Kansas City and I oversee Living Waters which is our main program uh here in the United States and what are those things so Living Waters is a process oriented group for men and women with various starting points of sexual and relational frustration disintegration coming together in the context of a church um and reading Theology of the Body together receiving prayer for focused areas of need and This Confidential boundary space is is unto becoming chased together so we do that here in the states and throughout the world we've been around for 43 years um founded by my great mentor Andrew Kaminsky and um I'm his successor so I'm he's priming me to to sort of take the ranks when he retires and and your story real briefly before we get into it yeah so born and raised in Houston Texas uh I went to Seminary right out of high school Saint Charles Borman Philadelphia and it was there that I encountered Jesus powerfully in my own broken sexuality I struggle with same-sex attraction have since I was a kid and realized that early on but didn't really know how to speak about it in out in the open you know wasn't very therapeuticized to have like language to speak of it you know so I hit it you know and I I lied to go into the Seminary because I knew that that was some sort of disqualifying Factor at least I thought you know right at the point I entered the Seminary I was 18 years old pretty addicted to pornography and um sexual sin and when I got into this Seminary I started getting into more deviant Behavior acting out with gay prostitutes in Philadelphia and living this duplicity light this duplicitous life in the Seminary and uh I thought I was doing okay like sort of maintaining you know Archbishop chapute came um great friend and Mentor spiritual director he he instituted a spirituality year which is kind of a a year between various year it I won't go into it but we didn't want to do the year it was an extra year so we bemoaned the fact that he brought this extra year but the year changed my life made me a Christian I can't wait to get into this in a way you know and I surrendered to Jesus in an area where I felt most shame and it was there that it changed my life and yeah we can get into the rest and you're now married I am yeah to a woman to a woman yes we have to clarify that these days yeah to a woman Anya uh she's from Poland we met in Poland so I was doing a Living Waters conference in vadovicze right outside of Krakow where John Paul II was born and raised and she's from Krakow we got married in varovita uh December of 2022. so we're rookies so when did you first realize you had same-sex attraction uh it was when I was a kid probably in early Elementary school I just knew I was somewhat different you know struggling with feelings for my guy friends and I didn't really know how to navigate that you know and as the years progressed it became more of like a a concretized reality for me at least it was a it was a world view that was starting to develop and was in enforced in a way through my own pornographic stuff turning into gay pornography and was sort of reinforcing in me this same-sex attraction thing you know um and it brought a lot of shame to me because it no one ever spoke of it I feel like the face of homosexuality has changed rapidly recently where when I was growing up there was still I felt a lot of Shame around it at least where I grew up in Texas you know no one ever spoke about it and so navigating that alone was just an interesting phenomena you know I I I didn't really want to speak about it so I never did but when I entered the Seminary I realized okay I I actually I need help here you know I realized that I was um in an all-male environment which sort of exacerbated my own vulnerabilities um but reading John Paul II getting infused with this amazing Catholic anthropology I felt like I needed to be known by this Jesus who could help me right like I needed to be helped here this was the exact place that he could appropriate his merciful power because that's where I felt like I needed to be saved the most it was the area that brought me to my knees the most and it was it was in the context of the Seminary that I realized I couldn't do this anymore alone in the dark so to speak I can't wait to get to that but I just want to kind of linger a little bit more on your childhood so when because I know remember as a kid you know I found girls attractive as a young child but it wasn't attractive in a sexual sense right it was like I love this girl she's so pretty please sit by me please laugh at my jokes and of course then it kind of develops from there into more kind of sexual thoughts or feelings that sort of thing um and so for you I presume it was something similar did you kind of begin with heterosexual pornography or was your first exposure or intentional decision to seek a pornography homosexual my first exposure was heterosexual pornography but then it turned into homosexual pornography because I found that the homosexual thing was a hiding place for me whenever I felt particular shame or neglect from my friends or whatever like wherever I felt that I was not doing well there was something about the homosexual pornography that was soothing to me you know it was grasping for the masculine where I felt vacant in my masculinity you know and you wouldn't have articulated like that no not at all but I knew that there was something about men that's that uh um intimidated me yeah but at the same time soothed me you know so trying to navigate that as a kid I I felt inherently damnable I had a lot of religious shame you know I wanted to be a priest since I was like four years old did you come from a strong Catholic Family pretty strong yeah I mean they're they're great I wouldn't say that they're like super super Catholic but they're Catholic enough they're wonderful people yeah um Mexican-American family you know we don't really talk about sex it's kind of not something that we would speak about uh but I I did feel in a sense um a lot of shame that I was just damaged goods you know that I was there was something off about me you know that feeling well and I you know it's so in interesting because now hindsight 2020 right hindsight and we love hindsight it's just kind of normal like we all sort of internalize certain things from our family of Origins we all have certain particular temperaments you know there of course there's going to be broken Brokenness that we induce from those experiences and whether it's same-sex attraction or maybe you're I'm other men that I know who are perfectly attracted to women but don't know how to love a real woman right yeah the same sort of Brokenness in a way but different symptoms it's kind of normal right to experience some sort of disorder in our sexual gift giving and being reconciled to the gift that we are but I didn't know that you know no one was really speaking about that not to blame anybody honestly I'm not here to sort of put the blame on the church I don't really like that you know never really felt bullied by the church or ostracized by the church Church in fact the church really helped me you know as a child will you go into confession I was yeah what was that experience like and did you confess homosexual pornography specifically I did yeah and it was really good I mean thank God for the amazing priests in my life I feel like those masculine models have helped me integrate my own masculinity yeah I needed them you know so people ah the churches you know I I didn't experience the church as that and granted of course all of us have mixed experiences but I actually think that's a little room noise to sort of pin it on the church as she is not um really sympathetic to those who experience same-sex attraction I would say well no I mean the churches are healing ground you know she's mother to us who are hurting and yeah she doesn't always get it right through her broken members but nonetheless it's in the space of the church not only that I have found wonderful priests to walk with but that I have found a vision for my sexuality a vision beyond my fracture but yes to answer your question these priests really really helped me you know but of course I think they were limited you know these are celibate men who maybe even struggled themselves I don't know yeah but I think oftentimes people who experience same-sex attraction especially if you're locked in being a celibate for the kingdom of God how do you help somebody integrate that you know is it kind of White Knuckle it accepted as a cross and maybe you'll be a saint yeah or maybe what if there's more you know and it wasn't until later on that I I kind of grappled with that question is there more for me Beyond this did you have a religious conversion even amidst your Catholic upbringing was there some sort of event that you're going to start taking the Catholic faith more seriously you know I was always so attracted to the faith it wasn't really a big huge you know voila moment you know but I I was always attracted to the Saints Padre Pio my great Patron you know and John Vianney these priests who were heroic John Paul II I was always magnetized to them I think they showed me some sort of heroic masculinity that I really liked you know and that's when I really started to think well I kind of want to be a man of the kingdom of God I want to give my life for this Jesus was there any part of you Desiring to be a priest maybe not having to deal with your same-sex attraction I think so there was a house how was that the case I think in a way it it took me out of the game of relating to woman yeah because the the priesthood is is celibate so it sort of I could bypass the Garden of Eden so to speak you know I didn't have to go into the dance of actually Reckoning with her good and giving myself to her as a man and to dignify her in that self-gift I I suppose I meant something more superficial like this way you don't have to be asked why you're not dating women or oh for sure yeah so I didn't date at all I remember I liked this girl towards the end of my high school career and uh I was already accepted this Seminary so it kind of like it you know it was a bypassing you know I didn't think I knew that consciously but subconsciously it was a hiding place for me if that makes sense what the priesthood yeah yeah the celibate it does yeah I mean even for myself as I discern the priesthood and then discerned against Seminary I had to realize that the Seminary was a hiding place for me as well because I was so afraid of being a bad husband a bad lover a terrible provider you know I was so afraid of all of those things that I didn't want to look at and so I thought well if I if I come I didn't think it in this way but it felt to me at the time that if I just became a priest but just during the Seminary then you know this girl who I really like Cameron who I'm now married to she can at least respect me you know she'll look at me with some kind of reverence that I'm this Pious Franciscan Friar doing this great work you know it was only when I started to realize oh I think I'm running away more than I'm running toward wow but for me it was a bit of a hiding place as well yeah yeah I I definitely I definitely felt that and you know I I had some good male friends in high school um but it wasn't until later in life that my male friends really asked more of that like why aren't you dating you know do I have a pass because I experience same-sex attraction I don't know there's there's a value of having normal dudes around you saying well I don't I see you as a guy and she likes you why not give it a try pursue what do you have to lose everyone has some sort of resume of Brokenness why is this so loaded why is this taking us out of the game yeah of possibly being robust marrieds yeah one thing I've criticized and I'd love your take on is how it feels like and maybe it only feels this way because it feels like the kind of Gaya gender is pressing in so heavily upon us that we react in this way but it feels like there's this this unhelpful distinction between those who are heterosexual and those who are on the other Island who are homosexual who are very different to us yeah as opposed to what you kind of started at aim at earlier or talk about earlier is like we all experience Brokenness in our sexuality right and maybe it's more helpful just to be like no there's no Us in them it's just us and we all have varied degrees of Brokenness which can express itself in different ways I agree with you Matt I think I think that's why I love Living Waters because it's equal ground we're all disintegrated you know that's a commonality so Living Waters just to clarify isn't just for those who have same-sex attraction no it's for honestly those of those who go through living wonders probably about 25 of them experience same-sex attraction the majority of people just are kind of your normal moral felons yeah you know so creating an equal ground where same-sex attraction is just one symptom of broken sexuality I think that's better than sort of saying oh well you go to your gay group you know go to your gay Group after we finish here and receive your your special healing you know or your special accommodation whatever the case might be it's like well no Jesus came to break the back of all moral disorder you know and to give us life to to reconcile us to the purity of our Origins no matter your proclivity either to the same sex or to the opposite sex broken as that might may be I like the equal ground I think that's important for us to maintain I don't like gay Catholicism I don't think that works what do you mean by gay Catholicism to sort of assume the proclivity as identity is is the experience of same-sex attraction is it symptom or is it destiny and I think to say I'm a gay Catholic assumes it has Destiny which I think says something conclusive about one's sexuality in a way it creates another nature we're all men for women women for men I mean that's Baseline t.o.b John Paul II deeper than any fracture is an orientation of who he will be for her and she for him I think that's better to just rest on that level ground of yeah I experience same-sex attraction but it doesn't determine my direction it doesn't determine my orientation that is a word that I want to reclaim what is orientation is sexual orientation whatever I feel or does it give homage to the design of my body that spousal by Nature and I think that's a better way that's a better starting point of saying yes I have confusing desires for sure but I need to reconcile to who I am as a man it's important to reconcile to who I am so that I can be a gift in my masculinity so with that in mind I want to tell you about an encounter I have with somebody who identified as gay and tell you if I got you can tell me if I got this wrong or if this was insensitive I had just gotten done giving a big presentation at a Steubenville conference which we have many all over the country for this person's anonymity and it was many years ago but he came up to me and and he kind of like said like you know I'm I'm gay and I I said sir like do you think you're special you don't think I have to deal with all the time as well there was something in his eyes that I could trust that he would take that well I wouldn't just randomly throw that out with no you know and and I gave him a hug and we we had a great talk is that kind of like yeah maybe that's a little too harsh I mean I I think I don't need a violin to be playing when I when I say I experience same-sex attraction because I think leaving homosexuality in a way I know that that's kind of a way of saying it like I left homosexual which is great I mean amen for those of us who have been washed by the blood of the Lamb yes Jesus is good to us he helps us but I think that's just the Prelude of becoming leaving behind a disordered way of living and saying okay what now yeah I think I would have said that well what now I mean you've come to grips with your experience of same-sex attraction I wouldn't necessarily call myself gay because of it but what now how are you going to reckon with that how are you going to integrate that experience of disordered sexuality but actually become in in through it how are you going to find the narrow way because you're still a man you still have a potency of engendering life of of actually pursuing women you have to reckon with that as any Christian does you know so yes and I think is always helpful yes thank you for sharing that what does that mean now what does it mean in Jesus you know he assumed a body so that we could be freed not from ours but for it so there's something about my body as a man who experiences same-sex attraction I do have a I do have a temptation to bypass the demands of this body to pursue women but I have to reckon with that you know so I'm going to ask you some questions that might sound as insensitive as when Michael Scott said to Oscar in the office one day you could we could get together and you could tell me how you'd do that do another dude all right so I don't mean to be insensitive I'm just trying to be honest so like what's the experience like you know when you kind of grew up teenage years you know um you are you attracted were you and maybe is the experience of people who would identify as gay that they do I they do find women sexually attractive and men but men more so or is it kind of like how I grew up was like I didn't find my secretary at all uh they may as well have been whatever yeah and women very sexually attractive like Arizona Spectrum where yeah you know I think I found women appealing you know but not sexually attractive okay you know so as a kid early laid out a lesson High School there was there was a locking into and I think an inner vow of I think I'm just gay you know and this is the direction I'm going but I know that that isn't wholly in line with the gospel so the priesthood I think is a good okay why not just reject Catholicism or or find Catholics who would uh dismiss the teachings from the church and say no they're really optional the church is going to change the teaching so just live the gay lifestyle like why not why not make that option that's a good question I think I I think I just loved Jesus too much like I I knew that I I trusted him and I knew I wanted to be his disciple and I think for me the Seminary was saying okay Lord I I think this is good I think this is a good way for me to live for you okay even though it's you say you love Jesus too much but that would imply that you believed what the Catholic Church taught about homosexual acts and I did why you did I did yeah I believe I believed what the church was saying but I I why did you believe that um I I think I saw the inherent disorder of it that it was just a dead end okay I think I knew from an early age probably because of my upbringing that sex was about babies and so if it wasn't leading to that there was something off about it I remember even as a kid being so convicted about the whole birth control thing like oh if sex is not about babies then it's just gymnastics it's just kind of hedonist you know so taking the Devil's Advocate approach and yet there are women women who are infertile and so if they're infertile maybe they shouldn't be having sex with their husbands either is that what you're saying no I wouldn't say that I would say that those who experience infertility in in whatever ways of course there's there's still an openness to life there's not there's not a um a sort of artificial means of withholding the gift you know of withholding self or or for for men who ask their wives to to use birth control to sort of stifle the system because that's just an obstacle to our sexual pleasure I think even those who experience a difficulty in conceiving there's still an openness kind of saying okay Lord here it is I'm still offering myself yeah the act at least says that of course the intention of the partners don't yeah exactly I think the ACT invites the Creator you know you lose control without unencumbered by birth control you lose control with the other and in a way that invites the Creator in you know it's beautiful and I knew I knew that from an early age like oh to sort of stifle that is disordered you know there's something about that that isn't according to the plan of God so did you have a lot of people really excited for you when you decided and announced you were joining the Seminary yeah yeah for sure like that my family was really excited I mean I grew up saying I was going to be a priest so it was sort of like a foot in you know and I did the strange thing of of of looking at different seminaries and I was attracted to the Philadelphia one so I went there which is people don't usually do that and I was accepted Cardinal regali at the time and um yeah people were pumped I was pumped you know but then when I entered my excitement became a slight anxiety because it exacerbated my need to be known in this area that I I wasn't known in you know why did it exacerbate the need um it it sort of created an anxiety that I know I need to speak this out you know but I'm just not so for example you asked about confession back as a kid yeah I would confess like gay pornography but behind the screen I wasn't known in it you know what I mean like Marco Casanova struggles in this way I was never up to this point known in that and I felt a tug from the Lord for years like you need to be known in this this needs to come into the light yeah so it's to be integrated you know I need I need to be known here and there was a lot of wrestle and just I'm not definitely not ever going to say that I just I love that it's so beautiful it's so vulnerable that place where the fear is if you know me you won't accept me yeah and I will be alone which I think is like our greatest fear oh my God left alone yeah this this risk of being known right that's where it's courageous I think when people leave homosexuality it's like you're you're you're showing me an aspect of yourself that's very very vulnerable yeah and what's what's kind of ironic too is vulnerability is I think one of the one of if not the most beautiful of human traits so when this fella came up to me at the Steubenville conference and announced to me that he was a gay Catholic I found that beautiful because he was sharing something that to him looked ugly yes and to me look beautiful right because it was just humility and vulnerability exactly I think that's a beautiful way to look at it Matt like these people are sharing something about themselves and how do we respond do we respond disgruntled and oh they're wrecking our Catholic ethos or is it an invitation to like well let me let me show you how Jesus has helped me or redeemed me in my own sexuality I mean Matt you're known for that I remember going to Steubenville conference as a high school student hearing you and like whoa this dude's leading out in his Brokenness kind of different than a lot of the other people I was hearing yeah they were being vulnerable but it was sort of nuanced to where it was I wasn't exactly sure what they were saying but you were just like I'm this this is how I was addicted and this was the the extent of it and this is how Jesus saved me I think we need that today in response to people who are saying this I think this is a part of me wouldn't it invite Community yeah to say well yeah I struggled maybe not like you but similar and Jesus helped me too how many conferences would you say you went to prior to Seminary roughly like uh I went to Steubenville like every year as a high school student so maybe like four now I know at studentville conference they often talk about sexuality right did you ever hear someone from stage say and if you have same-sex attraction look you're so welcome to the church and we love you and you're not a freak like does anyone ever say anything like that they did itself on the yeah but it kind of It kind of made me cringe a little bit you know because it wasn't there was no direction for me and I think I wanted Direction yeah you know it's like okay Jesus accepts me and the church accepts me I I thank you you know now what now what because I think a lot of people with same-sex attraction are afraid that if they follow the church's teachings they will be left alone which we've already agreed is the most terrifying Prospect for humans right and uh yeah I think I want what I wanted to hear uh and this isn't to dog anybody who you know gives those talks yes and amen but what I wanted to hear is maybe a witness of somebody who has experience being transformed by Jesus Mercy despite same-sex attraction you know we need that see what you're talking about I think is an intimacy with Jesus that many Christians haven't yet encountered right because I see this too when I talk to people let's say who would identify as alcoholics or say they were addicted to alcohol and then went to a 12-step group and or their life fell apart and they had no other option it's almost like to experience that deep intimacy of Jesus I need to get to the place where it doesn't work anymore I don't know how to make life work anymore and then that kind of that Redemption goes down so deep that I can now speak from this transformed place but I suspect that many Christians maybe even Christians on stage or who lead podcasts like myself haven't yet encountered that and so the good news for us might be well it's good news when we die and go to heaven or it's good news that we know the truth yes the church teaches that other people need to know but it hasn't yet reached dead deep down into our personal I mean I agree with you you know I think to have the ethos is really important but with no Praxis of how to walk that out it's sort of an anorexic gospel it's lacking something Jesus loves you in this Brokenness but not to provide Avenues to experience the transforming love of God is burdensome it's like okay well what now do I just sort of be good exist yeah screw up I think there's more for us and I'm eager I mean desert stream has been around for 43 years so this isn't novel but I think it's novel in the Catholic World you know I think it is fresh there's something fresh about it like whoa Jesus can actually do this for persons and it's not coercive you know that's I think that's the main obstacle today the whole conversion therapy bands all of this like is this coercive is this type of stuff coercive is it is it dangerous to be reconciled to one's nature you know and to actually be be be robustly alive in that you know not uh totally denying one's same-sex attraction but learning how to integrate and and to to proceed on with the Journey of giving and receiving is that dangerous well I would say no reality is not dangerous this is just capital r reality this is this is why Jesus came to reconcile us to who we are become what you are jp2 would say and I think there's something about that in this whole Arena which I think is so important today Matt we're in a in an incredible juncture in the life of the church right now where if we don't get this right if we don't get homosexually right homosexuality right it it it'll create such havoc in our church I mean the Protestant denominations have done this they've all folded to the whole homosexual question you know gay clergy gay marriage they've absolutely lost any sort of anthropology and I think in our history we have to be utterly clear in who we are and what is Ours by nature and what can the grace of Jesus help me be reconciled to so how are we not getting it right um I mean I think the Catholic church has a beautiful Anthem I think we have it I think we have the anthropology I think we do like what for those at home what man is and is for what do you mean by anthropology exactly Who We Are Who I Am for her who she is for me Theology of the Body I think that's prophetic I think what John Paul II did was a Prof a certain prophetic call to humanity it's still fresh today as I read it it's not dated in the least he's reminding us of who we are and it's just a Biblical anthropology he's just using the the Old and New Testament just to explain Who We Are so I think the Catholic church has it now I think the question is how do we appropriate it in our lives how do we actually um pastorally apply Theology of the Body I would say Living Waters it's an answer not to absolutize it you know but Christopher West for example we've been partnering with him and his Institute because he he believes Living Waters is the Pastoral application of Theology of the Body you read this Tome of human love and it's so incredible and then you're like how do I how do I do this I love it it sounds great how do I actually live this you know and I think every Christian is invited into that no matter your starting point so would you want to say thank you to hello which is the best not just the best Catholic app on the app store any app store it's the best app out of any app that's ever existed Catholic or otherwise I think it's finally time to say that if you want to grow in your prayer life please check out hello.com Matt if you sign up on their website at hello.com Matt you can get the entire app for free for 90 days that's ridiculous after those 90 days if you don't agree with me that it's worth the the money that you're gonna get charged after that monthly which is a relative relatively small amount you can just cancel you won't be charged to send they have sleep stories they have my Catholic Lo-Fi on there that just added the gospels a dramatized version of the gospels they have daily exegesis on mass readings which you can listen to it is fantastic so if you haven't done it already hello.com Matt sign up over there try it for free for three months so would you mind unless it's too personal sharing with me when you started to act out in seminary maybe what was it what was the impetus for that and the shame around that and whatever else yeah I mean being in Philadelphia is pretty far away from home and I remember getting to the point of in my own addiction to pornography that acting out homosexually seemed like wow that I could do that and and I can accommodate it you know I can sort of sanitize it you know gay massages that lead into sexual acts with other men in a way I I thought well it's not necessarily right right like I'm not out I'm not there was a there was a very weird I would say split from myself where I was trying to accommodate these ways of of soothing my pain soothing my my feelings of of being inadequate as a man you know and and in a way I I started to act out rebelliously in that but in the dark you know classic and good on the outside but in the inside really really broken and disintegrated and it was there that I I think it was maybe about 18 months that I pursued that and it was something that I would I would go to this Jesuit and confess behind the screen and he was amazing I remember I you know we've we became friends but I remember the first time I acted out and I went to confession he said you know you're going to want to do that again and you just have to be aware of that and I thought I'm never going to do that again right because the shame is so powerful the shame I was in tears there was something about it that was so I couldn't believe that I had crossed the threshold that I never thought I'd cross and this this Jesuit father Martin Tripoli beautiful man um he said You're Gonna Wanna You're Gonna Wanna do that again but I'll walk with you you know bless him you gotta you gotta you gotta get some self-mastery to really take him up on it at first I did later but I thought no no no no no it's I'm done you know I'll delete the apps I'll I'll I'm out you know but then I realized oh whoa I opened a door in my life that I'm I'm gonna need it I'm gonna need help closing um so yeah it it led me down a lot of dodgy um vacant uh attitudes in the Seminary I think I was showing up so to speak to class in Chapel and I was confessed and cleansed but in a way I had subjugated the confession to my own addictive acting out it was just a part of the cycle yeah you know go behind the screen feel pretty good and then a week later I'm in the same boat you know I needed help I needed a deep Reckoning there and so I when I was on this spirituality year um I remember going on this 30-day Retreat and I couldn't be silent because everything was confessed but I wasn't again known especially by the seminary community like I needed I needed them to know me you know I felt like I was withholding something from formation from these priests who were in charge of saying yes to my advancement you know and the third day in I remember I thought I can't I can't do this like I either leave the 30-day Retreat or I confess all of everything I've done to a priest so I did and it that catapulted me into a a conversion how did this confession differ from the one to the Jesuit and why did this cap is it because he was part of your formation program yeah it was there was something about that that had a gravitas you know it was how does that work as one uh is in seminary I know it's part of the private forum and the priest can't share this presumably with the person who's in charge of forming you how does that work so for me this this guy was in charge of the spiritual formation of the Seminary so he was internal Forum to use that language so but there was something that I wasn't even known to the internal form of the Seminary I didn't trust that I didn't want to be known by anybody who had a hand in my advancement you know and so I I came to grips with my need to be known to this man and I felt a real invitation from the Lord like I I need to just lay it out I need to tell him who I what I what I'm experiencing and who I am you know and it was there that I started to Pivot you know and this 30 day became a Saving Grace for me I'm grateful for that and the subsequent years became um restorative you know I started I never acted out again wow which was a Grace from the Lord but then I had I had a lot of other stuff to deal with pornography masturbation Fantasy Life codependency a lot of I had a I had a lot of stuff to unfold before the Lord and I needed help and that's when I started really utilizing everything that the Seminary could give me spiritual directors and therapists who helped me look into this my first therapist wasn't super helpful he wanted me just to sort of acclimatize myself to my gay self and so I I knew enough at that point like okay this isn't this isn't gonna work I need somebody with a little bit more of a of a grip on Catholic understanding so I went to this woman therapist and she was amazing she was able to help me see that my same-sex attraction had meaning that needed mining therapeutically that this was emblematic of a wound she gave me a template that I had never experienced before and she got out her little therapeutic scalpel so to speak and was able to help me navigate areas of the terrain of my soul and I needed guidance here um I remember sensing um a deep shame that I wanted to cultivate a desire um for woman not necessarily going into the direction of marriage but I I wanted to see woman as woman because I had so forfeited that in my homosexual Pursuits and I remember her um showing me the homosexual attraction was so high octane so jazzed and this desire for a woman was was was new it was new muscle for me and she was she helped me to just just to reckon with that and just to be patient with myself wow you know to sort of let this one let this one go Marco this one doesn't ennoble you it's compelling but it's not a nobling you know it doesn't doesn't really fulfill the design of of your nature but this one cultivate this one and by the power of the Holy Spirit it'll just cultivate it was so helpful for me just to sit in that office and just allow her wisdom and her guidance to to help me in these areas where I I mean celibate priest didn't help me yeah you know they cleansed me from my sin you know and they helped me to to be okay in the Lord but I also needed the psychotherapeutic to I heard somebody say if we were a little more Curious and a little less condemning of our sins we might make a great deal more advancement it sounds like that was what she was doing like how about we look at this right yeah how how do we see yeah how do we integrate this that was her big Pursuit how do we integrate this because you're a man and my task as a therapist and as a therapist for the Seminary is to to give you all of the resource you need at least in her wherewithal to be effectively mature enough to say I'm called to be a celibate for the kingdom of God and if I haven't reckoned with woman if I can't renounce the good of marriage for the sake of the Kingdom I'm not ready to be a priest so we had a task at hand I was just a a couple years away from diaconet which is when a man will promise celibacy to the bishop so I knew I there was a there was an end here that I needed to to come to grips with and that was very helpful for me but I still felt under a low ceiling like I was just gay frankly I felt like these Desires in me were still very strong and still not incredibly integrated and I took I postponed the acne ordination I asked chap you if I could take a year off and live in a parish and then my great friend Father Brian Kane who's a priest of Lincoln I said he was my formator at the time and he everyone knew everything about me at this point I had come into the light even with the bishop like I I'm like this guy's gonna lay hands on my head he needs to know who I am so at what point did you first share this struggle with somebody outside of the confessional or the psychologist's office yeah what was the question so uh I had a friend in the Seminary father Sean care who's a priest of Arlington Virginia a great guy uh is about the time that this book by James Martin building a bridge came out so I was reading it and I had a lot of things to say about it and I was taking him to a doctor's appointment he broke his leg or something and we're in the car and I'm pretty I was pretty impassioned by it and he just stops me he's like wait do you do you struggle with same-sex attraction and I was like oh my God like who asks that you know like Were You Raised by Wolves and I'm like yeah I do you know and that was the first time that I had kind of come into the light with my friends you know that was kind of a different level for me but then I was like yo Sean I don't need a therapist I need a friend so if I'm gonna be vulnerable I need you to reciprocate it you know like let's let's kind of do this together and then we formed a yazukaritas group in the Seminary and we we kind of really ran with the whole vulnerability thing so it's like a it typically priests who gather together and it's it's Faith sharing vulnerable vulnerable sharing groups for seminarians and Priests and it's a wonderful model of coming together we would come together every Wednesday morning and and just share where we're at with whatever we're struggling with be it with moral stuff or um whatever whatever the case was so that was when I I started to come into the light in Sean Sean was a firecracker for me he was he was really helpful and he's like yo you should tell chapu and I thought that is the last thing I would ever do but I thought I kind of let it I know why but tell us why that's the last thing you would have ever done well because I mean you then you're really kind of [Music] it was I was so scared you know like that could mean I'd be kicked out of the Seminary right you know but in a way he was right it is if you want to give this to Jesus then then give it to his members especially the members in your direct care who have a say over your life I believed it but when I first heard it I was super not into it I thought but I'll put on the back burner you know and if it catches fire I'll do it I'm that kind of person you know if somebody challenges me I may be defensive at first but if if it if it resonates so I'll walk I'll walk with it so I did and I met with chapu and laid it all out and he asked me important questions and it gave me a new Freedom you know to to walk with the clarity that these men knew me you know and at this point I had made significant progress in my integration but there was a personal feeling like I was still just under this low ceiling father Sean killed oh sorry what does that mean I like it is it just you felt constricted or I didn't feel free in my sexuality I didn't feel free enough to say yes I can renounce the good of marriage for the sake of the kingdom of God I was still allergic to the idea of marriage I couldn't even conceptualize myself actually being a good husband you know giving myself to a woman that was so foreign to me at this point I I desired marriage but I didn't think that was enough it wasn't just an emotional accommodation I wanted to feel it in my bones like oh no I made for this but I'm going to renounce the good of this to follow Jesus in this particular way for the sake of his kingdom and father Sean kilkali said hey there's this ministry out in Kansas City this guy Andrew Kaminsky he really believes Jesus can do transformative work on the level of sexual Brokenness and I I heard that and I I knew a little bit about Andrew because I had read his book strength and weakness was a part of our psychology course in the Seminary recommended reading and I was like oh yeah I know I know what that is but it struck me as all Evangelical and I was a little allergic to that like oh what do I do with a Evangelical Pentecostal Ministry you know like I don't know how to do that you know so but I thought I've risked much to sin I can risk now to be healed you know and if this is it I'm on this pastoral year I'm I'm Discerning I'm this is November of this 2018 pastoral year and I'm Discerning am I going to proceed on and I needed to utilize everything given to me so I came to this Living Waters Retreat we do it's called The Living Waters leadership training we do three a year and there's always there's always room for people who want personal healing and that was me I wasn't coming to lead Living Waters or even think about becoming an ambassador of Living Waters I just needed some answers you know so I came and I remember looking at the main room and there was the Divine Mercy I thought oh that's interesting the evangelicals like Divine Mercy I like that and then Andrew was at Mass the next morning and he went up for communion and I thought oh we don't like we don't enter commune but I'm here I'm just gonna you know I'm just gonna be open and and receptive and what I Andrew got up that next day and he said today is my favorite feast day and I thought surely he's a Catholic because it was the Feast of the dedication of the Basilica of Saint John lateran only a Catholic can actually like that and that's what he was referring to yeah exactly he loves the Ezekiel passage of the water just overflowing from the temple and that's when I knew he was a Catholic he talked about his conversion to Catholicism it was all falling into place for me I thought okay I'm not just in the hands of of evangelicals which I love now but now I'm in the hands of people who understand John Paul II Theology of the Body the Divine Mercy all of it it was an Evangelical Ministry but the fella who leads it was a Catholic it was just more ecumenical or yeah so now it's more of an ecumenical expression you know founded in uh Jesus movements California you know 1980 um but now it's it's it's become what it is now and and largely the whole all of the materials are our Theology of the Body so for me that was important I needed I needed to be and needed to feel like I was at home in something like I could track with this and this week I felt broke that low ceiling it gave me Vision I was able to kind of stand erect and see beyond my fracture yeah I was able to see a New Horizon from my sexual Humanity that I had never seen before because these Witnesses of men and women who come out of this stuff were saying oh no Jesus has helped me and this is how he's continuing to help me this is how I'm living with same-sex attraction but how I'm learning how to be a good gift for my wife I'm hearing these testimonies and it's breaking the domination of homosexuality in my life it no longer called the shots for me it no longer was holding the road map I was able to see beyond what I I couldn't I hadn't seen before and so I immediately went back to Kansas City and I left the Seminary because I knew I needed to give Jesus more space to do integrative work in my life I knew I needed to to let go of the Seminary not because I didn't want to be a priest but because I knew I just didn't have the wherewithal yet maybe I did maybe maybe I could develop that but I needed I needed Jesus to get in more and and I knew letting go of the Seminary was a necessity for me at this point so I came on as an intern to Desert stream and then um yeah been there since and now I'm full time so okay and what how did you how did you leave the Seminary so I just wrote a letter and said okay yeah I mean I I they want this is good all right yeah this is great did you did you get the sense that other men in the Seminary struggle with same-sex attraction yeah I mean it certainly came up I I think do you ever think about forgive the intense question the damage you could have caused if you had to become a priest and never reconciled this sort of stuff oh absolutely yeah that's what part of that was why it catapulted me out you know yeah and I want to be a saint let's be honest I want to be a saint and I think healing is an essential part of the Christian Mission Jesus came to reconcile us and I knew that if I wasn't going to take that seriously Jesus would still love me you know but I wasn't actually inviting Jesus to redeem everything about me if I was still even holding on to this gay thing and as a priest there was still something that I wasn't giving the Lord yeah and if you would have become a priest yeah yeah it would have locked me in I think in a way that how did did you explain this when did you explain this to your family because obviously they know her she wouldn't be on my channel talking about this so openly so how dang it mom doesn't know no she does uh I I would say uh when I left the Seminary they didn't know and then that Easter following Easter so I left in in January of 2019 and that Easter of 2019 I sat my family down and I gave I just kind of gave them what Jesus was doing in my life and that how did that happen how did that go I was it was great did they have the language of what the Lord is doing in my life because you said they were catholic but maybe not in that yeah I mean I think I think they they would like to have that language you know and there's they're good-hearted I think they received me in the best way that they could which was enough you know I needed I needed to tell them because I was becoming a part of this ministry and I wanted I wanted them to know it was important for them to know my process and why why I left the Seminary and why that at this point I felt like I wasn't going back to the Seminary you know so yeah it was good Friday we did like a prayer group which the casanovas never do but I told my sister I was like hey can we get the family together and do like a prayer devotional and she's like I love it let's do it so she gathered the family and uh I get I I gave up my Spiel and yeah since then we talk about it every once in a while you know just revisiting that um I think it's a process for them too like how do we reconcile this in in terms of he's no longer a priest I think it's easier for my immediate family but my extended family I'm sure they're like what what is Marco what's minus what's the Desert Storm working for Desert Storm Ministries you know like desert I wasn't talking about same-sex attraction and like yeah I think for for me it was it the open the mere openness to my family was um it was vulnerable it was hard you know what would have been harder telling them that or telling them that you had a pornography addiction hmm telling them that I think was harder for me you know were they accepting of it and if you more importantly yeah they were cool yeah and they they gave me a a good a good space to just talk it out they had questions which were great great questions some of them were more silent than others and that's okay you know again I don't know what's going on in their hearts the template in which they're receiving this yeah I think we're all different I'm definitely more versed in it than they are and I have to know that you know they don't have to receive me like a master therapist you know right yeah so you sound like you don't like people necessarily referring to themselves as gay Christians can you help us understand gay versus same-sex attracted and why some language might be more preferable to others yeah I think um that's a good question I think when you assume the the label of gay I think it's it's putting um a low ceiling on yourself I think it is saying something conclusive about your nature about your sexuality and I think that's important that we steer away from that because the one once we put sort of that at those adjectival qualifiers on it it sort of makes it something else yeah if I'm a gay Catholic that means that I'm I'm no longer in the world of Reckoning with woman you know I've I've kind of stalled in my need or in my adventure to reckon with her good well okay what does that mean because why can't somebody have same-sex attraction I call themselves a gay Catholic and reckon with a woman but not in the sense of wanting to date her or marry her well what does it mean to reckon with a woman I think it means to to see ourselves as gift and to see her as gift and not to put a cap on that I think putting gay on it qualifies it you know and in a way it's sort of determinative it's saying I I'm not really going there I've determined that I'm not going to get married because of this and I I think I would Challenge and say well are you sure are you sure what what makes you so sure that you're not called to that to give yourself as gift so do you differ with some other Catholics who've lived homosexual lifestyles in in this regard I I probably would yeah could you break open that difference for us so it's real clear for folks at home I like integration I like the language of integration I like the language of Chastity as seen in the catechism where it's an integration of our spiritual and corporeal bodily reality I like that language I think it's equal ground for those of us who struggle with sexual and relational Brokenness so in the language of integration as I'm integrating in who I am as man made in the image of God not just man but man and woman in the image of God I have to reckon with her in order to take my place I still don't know what that means as an image Bearer reckon with her um I have to see her as she is as as woman who's able to receive my Pursuit I I don't understand that either why can't I just recognize her as a good but a good that I don't want like I don't have to reckon with every woman in the world to be faithful to my wife and to give myself to her fully for sure no it's a good question I think it's important for those of us who to experience same-sex attraction to to not go out of the game of relating to Woman based on the proclivity so if somebody says I've had sex extraction ever since I was a kid lives in the homosexual lifestyle I'm now a faithful Catholic I've repented of that do you think they should be open to marrying a woman what about those who say I'm just not attracted to women and that doesn't mean I'm not integrated I'm just I don't experience that and so I'm going to be celibate yeah I think I think that's okay to come to that you know I think that's okay to say I'm called to be a celibate for the kingdom of God but I think that necessitates uh hard work of integration you know what does that mean in a hard work of a reckoning sorry using words that of of getting of of of of asking the hard questions of am I dodging woman because I see I'm threatened by her so maybe people too quickly dismiss the possibility of one day being married or being attracted to woman I I think so I mean I've met wonderful people in Courage who aren't married yeah who've been at it for years decades Chase living for Jesus it's amazing but I think they've reckoned with they've come to grips the other doesn't threaten them okay I think for those of us who struggle with same-sex attraction woman threatens me at times right I mean woman threatens me at times sure I think that's the equal ground that I'm speaking about you know certainly threatens Thursday so you laugh baby yeah we're gonna I'm praying for a bride for him um good thank you I'm sure he appreciate it I appreciate that yes um what are your thoughts on con what is conversion therapy and what do you think about it I mean I think I think conversion therapy is kind of a a catch-all these days for any effort for a person who's experienced the same sex attraction to to maybe launch into opposite sex relating so whether that's therapeutically or um yeah it's it's sort of I think a straw man frankly for for efforts of of people to choose the direction that is a therapist free to lead somebody in what is sometimes cool conversion therapy I mean I I think the question is what do we mean by conversion therapy you know is it good talk therapy about being reconciled to ones uh biological at a base level isn't it I'm attracted to dudes and I don't want to be yeah and and for me I think therapeutically I think a person has freedom to choose that and to say I I have conflictual feelings and I want to learn how to live with those not be so allergic to those maybe um having a therapeutic goal in mind you know maybe I maybe I am threatened by my co-workers who are women and I want I want to be I want to be good with them and how do you think you were threatened by women in a way that I wasn't I know you don't know me and that's an unfair question but I just think like I think a lot of men are threatened by the the beauty the elusiveness the mystery of woman yeah um and maybe that's why a lot of us turn to pornography because it's just easier I don't have to deal with the mystery I just get the whatever the the the soulless body I get the yeah you know um so do you think how do people with sense extraction struggle with woman in a way maybe that men don't in the way that we're kind of touching on I think for me I can only speak for myself I don't really know I think everyone's story is so different especially with those same-sex attractions so I I hope not I I don't want to sound like I'm absolutizing sure my template of freedom and healing um but I think for me it was can I actually dignify her uh sexually what does that mean I think there was a deep deep deep desire to be man enough to actually marry I think there was that in me you know like oh my gosh that was so attractive to me in the best sense when I saw marriage I was like whoa but I think the threat was can I actually show up for her am I man enough and when you say show up for her do you mean to please her sexually to provide for her to follow the above you know be roused by her yeah to protect her to speak for her okay to hold her to to lead her um that was a threat to me you know because it was it was a threat because you've I I apologize if I'm inter interjecting too much I love what you're saying I'm trying to understand it so is it a threat in the sense of the idea of it makes me feel emasculated like because I I don't have what it takes other people do I don't so therefore I can't go there because so I I It's the final flight so I have to fly I have to flee yeah from this threat that is calling something from me that I do not possess even though you do but the fear is that you don't possess it that's exactly right it was true it was new terrain that I hadn't walked into and that was threat that was threatening for me you know um but I'm grateful I'm grateful for I mean the whole healing Community you know who's who's helped me to sort of see my wherewithal to be a good gift to woman and to actually pursue a woman to love a woman well you know I remember so I met my wife in in varovitze we did the long distance thing and I remember going to visit her for the first time in Krakow um this was a couple months after we made it official that we were dating and feeling a lot of anxiety about oh I want to kiss her I want I want to show up for her I wanna I wanna feel for her there was other women that I had dated a little bit that I didn't feel that you know so I was worried because if I'm not if I don't feel for her then I'm not gonna pursue her not to say that that's everything but that's an important component it's something especially for someone like me who's going you know 30 on 13 in the world of women like I'm this was new for me you know this was kind of my first real relationship was there a point in your healing Journey that you thought okay I'm gonna be really open to pursuing women and pursuing marriage like was that a milestone for you yeah it was can you tell me how that happened so when I left the Seminary that's why I left okay they gave me the option of sort of leave of absence but I wanted I wanted to get into the world of woman we're gonna make that a short just clip that out no I definitely I wanted I wanted freedom to to step into that I never stepped into that you know yeah so it's important that I do that um but yeah I mean what I've experienced with my now wife um was it miraculous was it natural I think it's probably a little bit of both you know having good good feelings for her you know feelings that are uh appropriate I felt they were natural you know and I could go somewhere with with those I could it wasn't the end but it certainly was important data for me and Discerning this woman that I I grew to love and do you still have same-sex attraction it's not like that just vanishes when you make a decision for a woman yeah no yeah I still do I have to I I I'm a struggler you know but is it how is it how is your struggle different to say any other married man struggle who finds other people attractive and needs to be careful and needs to be on guard needs to watch the Motions of his heart as he gets close to somebody I think I'm sure in some ways it's the same I think it's the same you know I think it's it's just um important to keep an inventory or a keep a watchful eye you know I have good friends who know me and who pray with me when I need that you know I mean do I wish I I didn't have same-sex attraction I don't really go there like I met Jesus powerfully because of it I once sat in front of the Blessed Sacrament and thank God that I was exposed to pornography and I thanked him for all the sins I'd ever committed not because um because through them I came to him wow and through him yeah not because I'm rejoicing in the Sin which hurts him yeah I don't want to hurt him and I don't want to act irrationally yeah people are going to misunderstand this already I can tell but but I think those who are a little bit more spiritually in turn will get it to be able to sit before the Lord say thank you for everything that you've permitted to happen yeah because it has all brought me here to you you know it's kind of a womb that keeps on giving in a way for me you know it's it I bump up against it and I go to the I'm able to go to the Lord you know and I'm able to integrate more become more of who I'm called to be because of it if that makes sense say that last but again you're able to become more of you because of it yeah because I I I can come before the Lord and fellows uh and and say okay this I'm feeling this and yeah I I know who I am you know it doesn't surprise me no surprise oh my gosh I lost my healing because I have a homosexual thought I'm not I don't really think like that you know yeah but it's it's more of a way of saying okay Jesus come come Lord uh in a way of I love that like sitting before the Eucharist and just allowing the Lord to to meet me I remember when I got married um we came back from a honeymoon and I had an experience of feeling a lot of like just strong same-sex attraction they probably wanted to check out with pornography and I was I remember just feeling like oh like we're still in the honeymoon phase and this is kind of robbing me my wife wanted to go to this Eucharistic adoration event and and so we did and there was something there was something so beautiful about just sitting before the host and allowing Jesus to just be with me in that and assume the shame of that assume the the I was kind of pissed off and maybe slightly you know rude because of it you know how we get when we feel tempted and it's just disruptive to our plants but in a way it it opened me to Jesus who's who cleansed me initially from all of this it reminds me of Paul to the Corinthians like uh such were some of you but you've been cleansed you know he names homosexuality in that old litany but such were some of you but you've been cleansed so just to position myself and to be cleansed again I mean I had no felonies to confess there was no mortal sins but there was like this this this experience of a pool that gave me a reason to come before the Eucharistic Lord and say okay Lord here I am help me I think it's beautiful I like I I need that in my life you know and frankly I wouldn't have met Anya and my wife if it wasn't for same-sex attraction you know how is that the case well because we met in the Living Waters world she does live she did Living Waters in Poland um not because she comes from any same-sex stuff she has her own Brokenness um but we left we we met on this this ground of Living Waters you know and so in a way the Lord brought me to her through this wound [Music] strange yeah we uh this is this is so beautiful whenever I meet somebody who I'll give a talk and a couple might come up to me and say they've been going through essay or they've been through marriage counseling or I was an alcoholic or these kind of things I always think oh I bet you're someone I want to talk to because you're someone who knows who they are or has experienced something that they hate about themselves and have had to reconcile that and come to accept themselves in Christ um there's a depth there you know and I I feel sorry for those who haven't yet maybe run smack into their own impotency and so what do you bring to the lord it's like well I get impatient at traffic lights oh yeah but go into that like what what is that where does that come from you know well no it's just impatient with traffic lights it's like there's a shallowness there and I think yeah the Lord as we've kept saying the Lord wants to get down deep into those parts of ourselves that we hate about ourselves and to meet us there to yeah I'm still doing that like I'm not great at that you know as I don't know what it is maybe as a dude I'm not so connected to my emotions I love how women are the women I'm around at the office um they cry so beautifully at like things that are worthy of it and I'm like I'm trying I'm trying to shed a tear but it doesn't you know I'm I'm still working that like how do I go into the lower terrain of my soul how do I get into the lower register and and just be present there um I I want that Lord help me help me do that help me to reckon with my wounds and to to feel them and to to to allow them to to affect me you know so I hear you brother when you encounter people in Living Waters or desert stream what's the difference again real quick so one desert stream headquarters uh Kansas City many expressions of Living Waters throughout the world okay do you encounter people who come to you just completely hopeless like yeah I'm sure we're going to talk about my wounds and my childhood but you don't understand like none of this is going to help me really oh absolutely there was a a guy that comes to mind who came to a group that we did and uh he came in and he was he was in a in a really low place and he slightly suicidal you know but was seeing a therapist he was getting help in those areas um but he needed he needed hope he was sort of slothful in his porn addiction I didn't struggle with same-sex attraction but porn addiction uh Latin Mass guy so he was a little allergic to the whole can we lay hands on you in prayer you know that's okay uh and we were we were patient with him and I saw a change in him like Jesus was able to break through through the power of just members praying for him simply you know we utilize something called Listening Prayer and Living Waters where it's really a lot of silence and we just asked the Holy Spirit to speak to us give us words give us images for this one it's no advice it's not advice giving it's just saying okay Lord this person has expressed their need come come Holy Spirit common and encounter this one we stand with him today and the Lord encountered him now he's he's about to leave for mission in Ireland but it was just amazing what the Lord did through this it was a another program that we do cross-current but then he did Living Waters and and it it it it it broke through the spirit of death in his life there was something in his life that was that was gripping him because of his struggle and Jesus gave him hope in in that very place incredible you know and of course that's a that's a wonderful story I think a lot of people who come to Living Waters it's not like a one time and you get every all the integration you need and it's like well see you don't need your money back you you got it all right it's more like this is such a courageous life I I remember when I went to therapy for the first time for all sorts of things you know anger and stuff like that there was like the Temptation that what am I doing like this is pathetic I'm here on this couch talking this freaking dude yeah like and then and then the good part of me mocked the bad part of me and the good part of me said oh yeah like way better just to stuff your feelings down and like watch football and masturbate and like not give a about anybody and not open your heart to your children and just suffering you do that that sounds like a winning ticket like what most people are doing huh yeah um it's like and then I realized oh yeah that's stupid I don't want to do that yeah I want to live this deep life with its Joys and Sorrows yeah and I want to choose that over a surfacy shallow life where I pretend everything's fine exactly gradually dying yeah and I I this is why I love the world of Living Waters is because the gentleman like I just um described he he knows his limp he knows where the enemy can catch him he knows that he's prone to despair he knows that he he needs more magnanimity in his life you know praise God now he knows he he it doesn't take away the limp but he walks with it uh with with more insight and and a SP an inspired uh Authority now you know and he he now doesn't have the shame to ask somebody for prayer and to help it ask people for help you know so in that way it's beautiful to see the progression of how people walk these areas out in their life various areas out in their life it's an exhausting thing to continually repent of something you know you shouldn't be doing it's it's it just leads to a kind of hopelessness where you think God I just I just hate myself yes this what the hell is wrong with me I think a lot of people think that and of course one path out of that is to say well there's nothing wrong with me like this is Perfectly Natural and it's the church who's wrong yeah um yeah and that I have a lot of I think as you say that man I think of a lot of people that I know who are in the grips of Let's uh the people I'm thinking of are people who struggle with same-sex attraction and who don't have Community around them you know who don't have an empowered Community to help them if we have a fella or a lady who has same-sex attraction right now and they're watching this and they have no Community can they reach out to your group yeah what does that look like how exactly can they do that yeah I mean you can you can email me m Casanova there you go desertstream.org put that in Thursday it's buckle up yeah I'll try my best to connect you I mean that's why we exist you know like you're not alone Jesus has more for all of us yes come come and and experience what Jesus has for you this is why living water is obviously John 4 the Samaritan woman I love that I love that image of this woman who has a lot going on and this merciful Jesus comes and he he he shifts the atmosphere he changes everything for her you know and I think that's what Living Waters is that's what we are desert stream it's like okay you don't have to get tidy up to come come experience what God has for you there's there's more for you that's what I would say and and it doesn't my story doesn't have to be your story you know it's not this weird thing of now I have to sort of acclim my ties myself to being married it's like no that's that's not the point the point is you're a gift do you know that you're a good gift in your sexuality do you actually know that because Jesus has come to to reconcile us to that good gift so come I I imagine somebody saying all right I want to repent of this stuff and I keep going to this over and over and over again and they go to somebody like I don't know someone who's familiar with sort of therapeutic language and maybe that person says to them well what you really need to do is you need to go deeper you need to like bring this these these things to the Lord and look at your woundedness or whatever and all that might be good advice but it still seems to put the pressure back on the poor person who's exhausted from trying to deal with this stuff and now they've got to somehow be insightful enough like you were insightful enough to figure it out yeah I think this is where the work of the holy spirit is so important you know the Holy Spirit brings things up that we don't even know or maybe we haven't even looked at in our life this is why the work of the holy spirit is so important and what I mean by that is um for example there's this woman Leanne Payne I don't know if you've heard of this one it's kind of an Anglican she's she's dead now but her her books were so so important um as as the protestant.nominations even her own the Episcopalian denomination was folding because of the homosexual question she wrote this book called The Broken image because she knew that the church was sort of going in a direction that wasn't wasn't true and and so she wrote this book she was really an integrationalist she wasn't a therapist she was a C.S Lewis scholar and she had these he this sort of healing these healing conferences and I think of her as you as you say that Matt because I think she had such a uh a keen awareness that the Holy Spirit needs to be present in these areas and we need to invite the holy spirit in to help us navigate our own selves I think of people like Bob shoots you know or or or Andrew Kaminsky these people who are so acclimatized to the work of the holy spirit because it's not it's not helpful when a therapist is sort of looking at you like I know why you experience everything you're experiencing so let me just sort of get my dirty hands in there and fix you you know that's not helpful it's like get out of my soul you don't you don't actually really don't know what's going on maybe you have some awareness of it but that's why we need the work of the Holy Spirit we need the whole healing Community that's why it's not just Living Waters or just therapy or just the Eucharist it's all of the above helping us to navigate these areas and then to to just offer them as they come you know and I think that has been most helpful in my own life I definitely wasn't ready at when I came to came from the homosexual lifestyle and prostitutes and stuff into the light I was not ready to to receive a Tome and and just integrate like pull yourself together and be ready for marriage that wasn't that would be inappropriate that would be in a way um uh not respectful to the process of this person who's experiencing a lot of a lot of things and this is why I think the work of the holy spirit is so pivotal in these areas to just shift focus a little bit if we have somebody watching who's living in the living a homosexual lifestyle right now I can imagine their critique of you and your story being well of course you didn't find it fulfilling it's it's not a fulfilling thing to be going to massage parlors and prostitutes but if you had actually found someone that you could have shared your life with and fell in love with then you would have found it fulfilling what do you say to that yeah I think um to somebody who says that I would say well we have maybe a different view of what homosexuality is then I would see homosexuality more of as a compulsivity you know something within a particular person that wants to maybe repair something that they don't see in themselves I saw that in my own experience of same-sex attraction I I wanted men that I wanted to be like and in a way I I didn't I didn't just admire them I eroticized them you know and this isn't to absolutize it you know I want to be careful here because everyone's story is so different but I would say that homosexuality is by nature a compulsion it's not nature it would never fulfill Me Maybe it satiates something in me maybe I feel less body shame or I feel accepted but on a deeper level on a level of nature I would say that it's inherently unfulfilling it can never fulfill because we're not made for the same we're made for the other sexually speaking so I think there would be uh a difference in definition of homosexuality and also a difference in an anthropology of I'm a man what does that mean what's my direction I think that design unlocks the direction you know as a man I'm again made for woman woman for man how many young men do you encounter I mean we're going to have young men who watch this who I pray to God and I bless you brother if you're out there of course you are watching this you know you have same-sex attraction you haven't shared this with anybody and you're welcome here we love you you know we're so what would you kind of advice be to somebody who maybe finds the types of distracted maybe they're looking at porn maybe they're not maybe it's homosexual porn they don't know what to do with this what's your advice to them be hmm it's a good question that's why they pay me the big bucks you ask a good question you're a good Inquisitor okay uh I mean I I have a few things in my mind one uh I would say come to a Living Waters training Shameless plug I think it's important to have a boundary what if they're young though what if they're like 16 Ah that's kind of that was the Poo I had in mind you know the young man who's who's really in at a point in his life where it's easy to be influenced one way or the other and it seems to me that if I was in that position if I was a 16 year old boy with same-sex attraction and I got all I have got like big government big Tech big Hollywood all of the very attractive people telling me just embrace it and become yeah who you are that sounds way more appealing than just don't do it or something or if I were that 16 year old I'd probably find a good priest and just say hey can I talk to you can I bring this to the light a priest that you trust I don't think it has to be anybody or any priest you know but somebody that you're like you know this this person knows Jesus and I admire this person's love for the Lord it could also be a sister or it doesn't have to be religious somebody an adult in your life that you trust maybe youth Minister you know and bring it to someone bring it to someone that you train into the light yeah and say hey can I you don't have to have all the right language you know you don't have to watch this five million times to say it perfectly just say it just say I'm struggling here you know I just think that would be so helpful to invite somebody into that would that have been helpful for you as a 16 year old I think so yeah yeah to say what what do you think what do you think of this as I say this you know I felt like I needed to be covered there and hopefully that's what happens when this person expresses him or herself what does that mean I think of the corporate work of mercy of like clothing the naked like being vulnerable like you're showing yeah something you're showing like your wound yeah please reference it yeah like can you cover me with my baptismal garment like remind me of who I am you know and that's what I mean by a trusted member not a worldly we have worldly members of Jesus body too which is kind of a firm people in their their gayness I don't think that's helpful that's what I mean by somebody that you trust who loves Jesus who knows maybe who knows how to do this and you know what I would say to this person who's listening pray for that pray for that person you know it'll come to your mind the holy spirit's looking for ways to come into your life pray for those people and and and take the opportunity to be known what groups in the church are doing good work in this regard and those who are doing not good work like what let's name names point to groups you're like no these people I think they're doing good no one's perfect I know that and then maybe what are some attempts by some to uh maybe cozy up to the lgbtq community but you're like this is not the way to do it it's a great question Matt um well I would of course I would of course say James Father James Martin is is his his whole Outreach is his ministry is confusing and I think it undermines the gospel how do you how is it confusing um I think what he presents is a faulty anthropology and it's sorry what does that mean what how is he presenting it that's faulty I think allowing persons who experience whatever um wherever they're at at the Spectrum of same-sex attraction or gender dysphoria that this is who they are oh I see championing that is as like this is my identity this doesn't make sense my nature and my direction I just think that's dangerous and you think he is doing that I do yeah yeah I I do I I think he may be clever in the way he does it um but I think he's doing that I think it is in a way feeding the manichaean Gnostic heresy still alive today of splitting people off body and soul that I I actually don't have to reckon with my body I think I think Father James Martin is doing that today and I think that's important for us to say we're in we're in a junk in a juncture in the church and we've got to get it right we have to get it right we can't be diplomatic a lot of Catholics are we we're so diplomatic that we fail to actually name what is wrong it's not helpful so Outreach dignity USA is like a another Ministry that's been around and that that has very confusing similar to James Martin uh new ways Ministries is also unhelpful yeah I would find I haven't heard of these very unhelpful I mean but they would be so radical on the Spectrum yeah those who I think are are are doing a good job I mean I love courage I do love courage I have deep respect for courage Father John Harvey Father Paul check father bochanski these These are men who know the church's teaching and they they've been custodians of that for 40 years 40 plus years they were founded the same year as desert stream and uh I I love them I love what they're doing um others I'm a little hesitant here Matt but I will I will just say I I love I love what people are doing for example like Eden invitation there there's like a good ethos but I think their Resource page is really confusing if we can get kind of nitty-gritty in that way um I think they've they've been um broadcasted this this movement called re-voice and it's more of an Evangelical phenomenon than a Catholic one but there's this side a and side B of revoice so revoices the umbrella side a is sort of uh Christian and gay and acting out so that's the side a and then inside B is um Christian gay but celibate you know and I just think again are they affirming both of these things yes so they they hold both of the a conference with both sides so to speak without calling a to repentance without calling those engaged in um yeah and accepting all of it it would kind of hold the tension of of this is what people can choose in a way um I just think that's dangerous you know I think it's sloppy Chastity that doesn't lead to integration actually doesn't lead to Freedom um so I I would say proceed with caution of course you know and I think I I say these things because I I have such a heart for the truth in these areas if I landed in one of these Ministries that don't have it right in my opinion where would I be would I be a confused priest would I be a disgruntled you know celibate ah I I dare I say I probably wouldn't be married to Anya if I didn't have somebody giving me vision for more so I would say yeah that would be my opinion on that Matt but that's really helpful all right I want to say thank you to Emmaus Academy they've put out this brand new digital platform to help you grow in your love of sacred scripture and therefore Your Love Of Christ if you're like me you know how tempting it is just to waste so much of your day on YouTube like maybe you're doing now or listening to political podcasts and other things the truth is we do often have the time to grow in our knowledge and love of scripture we just need a helping hand and that's what this brand new digital learning platform is going to help you do it has short courses on scripture that you can take you can learn from Dr Scott Hahn Dr John bergsma father Boniface Hicks many more I've been on this platform I have a subscription to it and um I mean it when I say it's actually really excellent and it'll help you love scripture I think a lot of us want to love scripture but we find we fight I don't know we feel guilty that we don't love it as much as we should platforms like this will help you do that so click the link in the description Saint paulcenter.com Matt and sign up when you sign up you get two weeks free to the entire platform I mean think about how many times you and I have subscribed to say Hulu or something else um when we could be doing something like this and growing in a love of scripture so again Saint paulsender.com sign up today you get two weeks for free you don't think it's worth it after that time cancel it you won't be charged or Cent but I think you'll be really impressed with what you see thank you so much for for being here again as we wrap up tell us more about your ministry that you're involved in and what you offer so um for those of us who are listening um abroad outside the United States we do have Living Waters International so my colleague Abby Ford oversees the international initiatives so don't hesitate to reach out to us um I can put you in touch with her for sure and then uh three times a year we always we do a Living Waters leadership training like I mentioned before but those are just great opportunities for people to come and experience healing you know and whatever it is um and so the the first one will be in conjunction with the Theology of the Body Institute of January 2024 um the second July in Kansas City and the third and last one will be in November in California so go to our website desertstream.org and you can get all that information and then we have this great conference coming up it's called Incarnation and integration Let Your Kingdom Come October 19th through the 21st and that's in Kansas City so if you want maybe not the Intensive of Living Waters leadership training but a few days to be in in the Stream so to speak of when you say leadership training does that mean for those who've kind of dealt with a lot of this stuff and now they're willing to help or is it people who like need help and they go to that conference for that reason so the Living Waters leadership training is for for persons who want to start this in their own Parish so for those who want to create a healing space for people um so if you have a heart for that and I'm like where do I look at if you have a heart for that come to one of our leadership trainings and be trained to learn how to do this 20-week group it's it's great and it'll it'll really change the face of your Parish to become not only a church that's clear on the the ethic of sexuality but to actually have have a Praxis how do you walk this out yes Theology of the Body yes the gospels yes Benedict XVI but how do I actually do this Living Waters will do that in your Parish so come and get trained start a group and we help you do that um that's what other resources do you have I mean do you have people who've written books that people could reach out to you guys have a podcast yeah so this book rediscovering our lost fullness a guide to sexual integration into Comiskey my boss you're so kind so um it's a great it's a just a great read um it's it's all about uh just real quick what's Andrew's story because we've mentioned him several times yeah I mean I don't want to get into it because I'd love to have him on one page but just just a real brief summary who is he Andrew Kaminsky comes out of homosexuality himself uh he was he was grappling with all of this stuff and and his pastors realized that he was taking a major ground and he started to date this woman Annette who's now his wife and they said how about you start Gathering with persons in our church and they did and that became a group called Living Waters and then they expanded Beyond just those who struggled with same-sex attraction just really anybody who needs more healing and they've been doing that for 43 plus years and they're they're they're doing great they're doing great work um and he converted to Catholicism 11 12 years ago what so through Christopher West was really a kind of the the pivot for him and reading Theology of the Body and this is our Living Waters guidebook this is your two brothers who can see it but it's great it's it's you can get back to your face where the focus is yes perfect thank you I said sack to your face but whatever since you wanted to be offended about it that's fine fine that better but get get the book like it's a road map it's been honed for those 40 years it's it's a wonderful resource there's video teachings that go with each chapter so even if you don't maybe you don't you can't start a group just go through it yourself it gives you language it gives you a lexicon to speak of your own experience of sexual Brokenness and what Jesus can do for you so so glad y'all are doing what you're doing yeah thank you you have this podcast I do yeah it's gonna say it I think there's as I've heard someone say many times this will be only part of the quietest Bingo people there's more podcasts Than People yeah at this point so surely you have one I do it's called desert streaming so and I do that that was good hey that's more clever than Council of Trent I just want Trent to know that it's very confusing I know it's spelled differently but follow us desert crap on trend for no reason at all yeah desert streaming it's great so please tune in I do it with my colleague Katie Kaminsky who we're really mobilizing to grow more groups in this country so we'll we'll put links to all that right already got it in my notes he's the best dude thank you let's go bro that's wonderful thank you so much for being on the show thanks for chatting with you bless you brother thank you women

Channel: Pints With Aquinas

Views: 94,147

Keywords: aquinas, catholicism, catholic, pints with aquinas, matt fradd, theology, debate, religion, st. thomas aquinas, thomas aquinas, philosophy

Id: GybOCasgJng

Length: 95min 0sec (5700 seconds)

Published: Tue Sep 26 2023