From Satan to Christ (Interviewing an Ex-Satanist) w/ Michael Davis

I just want to offer a disclaimer before we get underway that in today's episode we're going to be speaking about many sensitive things and even some troubling things and so certainly if you have children do not let them watch or listen to this unless you watch and listen to it ahead of time um and then I also would advise against anybody who struggles maybe with the vice of curiosity um just to be very wary about this maybe not watch it at all or just just just uh just to be cautious as you go through it in the name of the father Son and Holy Spirit I'm in almighty God who delivered your people from the bondage of the adversary and through your sun cast down Satan local lightning Deliver Us also from every influence of evil and unclean spirits command Satan to depart far from us by the power of your only begotten son our Lord Jesus Christ rescue us from demonic imaginings and darkness fill us with the light of your holy spirit that we may be guarded against all the snares of the cunning demons grant that your angel will always go before us and lead us in the path of righteousness all the days of our life so that we may give glory and honor to your most holy name Father Son and Holy Spirit now and always and forever and ever amen Michael Davis thank you for being on the show I'm honored it's good man it's great to have you it's uh yeah pleasure is it weird being in this room people always say it looks a lot smaller it's weird because all my favorite people have been here that's so cool yeah oh no I just I was I'm not going to keep saying I was telling you before the show but um yeah I um I can do that if you want to that's fine it's uh probably a nervous tick but I um yeah I I never on principle like I don't like anything that happened after the fall of Constantinople so I uh I I don't like podcasts on principle or I didn't like podcasts on principles but then when I in my job I had to start keeping up with the the most popular authors and stuff so I I uh I figured I should probably start listening to the podcasts and this was the first one I listened to because it's the it's the Catholic podcast and um you know after the first episode I was like this is pretty good I like this show I begrudgingly concede yep yep so now who was the first guest that you watched do you remember mother Natalia oh what a woman yeah yeah yep I um I have a story about the Christ the bridegroom after yeah but um well we should let's announce it now I don't know a bit bit of news bit of news here which I haven't told you or you I've shared with you so we are go just like we have father Gregory Pine weekly running a uh a show you know he does a little we're gonna have mother Natalia has agreed to do it as well so we're gonna start having a weekly uh chat with Mother Natalia I don't know how she's going to feel about the word Aquinas uh or pints maybe it'll just be pints of coffee with Maximus or something I don't know but I always thought father Boniface heck should start a rival podcast and call it hemina's with Benedict well I like that yeah or there's a beers with Bonaventure I'm gonna give everyone name ideas for their new podcast tequila with eskriver yeah just a quick shot good huh yeah you should know that you're Eastern you should change it to pints with Palomas yeah I'm not gonna do no but yeah I could uh but people have said that for sure oh oh well I thought that was my one joke so we're done um I I'm excited that I don't know a lot about you because it'll give us a chance to be sincere as I chat with you as opposed to pretending to not know things that I already know yeah so where were you born and raised well uh born in Massachusetts um raised uh you know a presbyterian um a fairly you know fairly conservative Presbyterian parish and uh idyllic you know New England childhood grew up on a an Old disused Farm but in you know rural Massachusetts so I my first job when I was in Middle School was you know working on a neighbor's farm and I did that through high school and it was uh the best job I ever had and probably ever will have so where did you grow up in Massachusetts it's uh you don't mind me asking exactly the town because my wife was born in Weymouth and her family are on the cape oh I didn't know that okay um it's a town called Haverhill okay a city called Haverhill was on the North Shore um and if anyone's ever passed through Haverhill they're going to say there's no Farm country in Haverhill but it's uh there is in the like the northern right up against the New Hampshire border there's uh it gets very rural I grew up on a property that was it used to be part of the the property of the poet John Greenleaf Whittier so his he was my neighbor I would walk through the woods and through the fields that we hate and I was at the Whittier Homestead which is all preserved and if anyone knows the um oh I'm I'm embarrassing myself well the barefoot boy um it was written while he was living there and uh there's one about this is humility and there's one about winter that everyone knows okay um but yeah so it was my my parents are wonderful wonderful people which I say to preface nothing that happened it was their fault um yeah and uh were they practicing Protestants my yeah my father was uh or is a lapsed Catholic my mother is uh a practicing Presbyterian yeah yeah and so did you take to the faith as a Early Child did you say your prayers read the Bible yeah I remember when I was uh when I was a little kid I mean probably or you know 12 maybe 13. I uh I told my our Minister that I wanted to be a Protestant Minister when I grew up I loved religion I loved the church I still loved the Presbyterian tradition for everything that he gave me um yeah I I have no complaints at all about growing up it was this the perfect you know New England childhood my family my family came to I was born in I was born in the city of Newburyport and my uh my family came to Newburyport and 1624 I think so like Deep Roots knew everyone in the area I used to go when I run into when I go to Market Basket near my parents house I still run into people that I know and um yeah I I just can't yeah I can't say enough about my parents my home the schools that I went to it was it was all idyllic I have nothing but good memories before I forget I want to just offer a disclaimer to those watching we're going to get into some very sensitive material today so if you sometimes let your children watch this show or listen to this show maybe don't do that until you've at least listened to it and then or watched it and then make that decision yeah because I'm sure you didn't go from presbyterian kid who wanted to be a pastor to Satanism overnight it was you know no so how did you gradually move down that path well I was uh I was an m a huge nerd and so uh I was really into Greek mythology when I was a kid awesome and uh and looking back one of the things that I realized you know reading Greek mythology studying as best I could you know when the internet was still pretty new um Greek religion um I was really drawn to the two things one of them was the um was the fact that there was really no distinction between the natural and the supernatural you know at any moment you know you could encounter a God in the river um the god of the river you know the god of a pretty a nymph could pop out of the trees and there's a part of me that still really believes in you know that that the world is charged with the Grandeur of God that there's you know I I I've I've experienced that you know personally I've I've never had any doubts about the supernatural um yeah Supernatural in in one way of thinking of it is could be thought of as a pejorative term yeah as if there's this distinction between what is natural and what Supernatural when maybe the national and Supernatural are one thing reality absolutely it's interesting I I uh in in Islam you know the there's the the gin or the genie and um the the I don't know if you know this but Muslims believe that the they still believe most of them still believe in the Gin but I mean it's integrals of the Quran but they believe that the the Jinn are you know they're pretty much they're they're like people but just incorporeal so some Gin convert to Islam some don't some are pagan um and they have these they have personalities they have private convictions some of which are presumably right or wrong and um so the the idea this idea that we have in the west now of separating the natural and the Supernatural is very foreign to our own tradition but it's basically unheard of in the rest of the world and I think it's very artificial and then when you encounter um a tradition of people that don't make that insane distinction um coming from you know even the best of us you know the people I should say the people with the best upbringing like mine um you know we're still products of a secularist world secular society and uh yeah so when you encounter something like Greek mythology um it seems more true than what you what you're what you imbibe from the culture it's funny you say that lately I've been on a kick of saying that I prefer non-fiction because it seems to me sometimes if it's good non-fiction more factual yeah Than Fiction sorry fiction is more factual than none fiction you know like reading Tolkien like this is more factual than reading the New York Times absolutely and you get you know you get made fun of when you talk about the authors that influence your worldview most and you say Tolkien and uh people no idea oh yeah that's true I mean yeah it's uh [Music] that's good yeah no it uh yeah so I I encountered this um this other way of it was just really the first way that I encountered this other way of looking at the the world and uh and I was drawn into it and so in middle school I made a friend who uh she was Wiccan and her mother was also Wiccan and you know we would we would hang out and she would they would take we lived not very far from Salem Massachusetts you know which city USA and so we go and we'd buy you know ritual stuff um how old were you Middle School you said Middle School yeah yeah I don't know how old that is 13. we did your parents know and were they concerned if they did no I don't think they knew I I did my best to hide it um I think I had I mean I had I know that I I left my Idols out but you know what does it what do you mean statues like the statues of the Gods and and things like that okay you gotta back up so you have statues of God in your in your house in your bedroom and yeah so these like these witchcraft shops they sell Idols like statues oh I see so after you bought them you would hide them oh yeah no I wouldn't I wouldn't hide them I think my parents just thought that they were oh artworks that I had because I would go um so they I think they and they knew that I loved Greek mythology so I think to have like a oops sorry yeah to have a little statue of uh you know of Apollo or whatever I think that that wasn't something that gave them any pause but um I did hide my my ritual tools and um and I had the usual stuff the um I had a chalice that I bought from witchcraft store and I would uh and I would take the the chalice and I would steal wine from my dad and uh and I would and you know usually like bread or something um and I'd take the uh the idols and um others you know other tools of the craft and I would go into the woods these we had very deep woods behind my house and I had a special group it was a hidden it was hidden in a gulf with a with a stream and I had a special spot that I would go to and I would make offerings and say the prayers and um and it was you know it was that was that was kind of how I how I got into it and I still think of that period as uh kind of The Arcadian phase of this uh this this part of my life because it was I was the other thing that I was desperate for I think growing up as a presbyterian the thing that we have a natural need for is ritual and to be able to take you know these these elements wine and bread and to have these beautiful statues in nature and to say these set prayers these ancient prayers um like the hymns of Orpheus and uh and to make these offerings and to to offer beautiful things to something beautiful or that seems beautiful you know um I think this fulfilled uh I think this was a in a way it was kind of a prefigurement if you want to say of a or it came from a good Instinct and uh and I and and it it doesn't it seems more innocent than anything else and uh I feel like becoming well jumping ahead but I feel like becoming Catholic you know it I I look back now and I say this is what I was looking for yeah so it was the innocence of a child looking for something more yeah yeah something and something fundamental um I I love I love our Protestant brothers and sisters and I love the church that I grew up in but I uh I don't the truth of the mass if you can say this the truth of the mass aside I don't think that man can go without ritual I think that there's a deep need for that and I think even though I had good Bible preaching great spiritual direction from my Minister who's a wonderful wonderful man I he's still active in Ministry and my parents were just wonderful very supportive of my uh you know of my spiritual formation in the Presbyterian Church not knowing that this was going on at the same time but um what was it about the idols and the rituals that you were buying from this Wicker Store what was it about that that you thought I can't let my parents into this you must have had a sense that this was bad or did you just think this was weird not necessarily bad and they wouldn't understand it why did you hide it from them I think I I know now that they wouldn't have minded but I think I liked the idea of it being a secret I think I liked the idea of being you know the secret Pagan that was sneaking out into the woods and you know might be persecuted if anyone not on my parents would have been I mean I think that they would have obviously had some objections but they wouldn't have you know they wouldn't have castigated me everything um I mean that's a quick that's a quick transition from visiting a Wicker Store with a friend in Middle School to Ritual books and and things like that it was there much progression there or did she kind of introduce you to it did you buy books that look cool and then learn how to do the rituals yourself yeah yeah and that was I mean I did have that was you know that was the first time around that time was the first time we had the internet in our house and so I looked up a lot of the stuff on there um I I was pretty infatuated with this girl so I think a lot I think that the the the my Lifelong Love of Greek mythology um kind of uh I was like you know oh this I want to impress this girl um this is kind of and it was kind of the expression that I got out of it uh the the the way that I found of kind of connecting with her and and being part of her world ah and so it's but I didn't I I didn't initially have any interest in you know what we would call Magic like we can type magic I mean all Pagan rituals are kind of magic they're always you're always you know saying to the gods this is I'll give you this if you give me that or I'll give you this offering if you you know if you don't smite me you know usually it's in historically it was mostly fear it was you know you make offerings to the gods so that they don't send another Greek nation state to kill you um but uh yeah I mean at first it was uh I just wanted to have a relationship with something Transcendent and um and taking the the love of Greek mythology and and bringing it together with the with the Wicca was uh was kind of the first expression that I found for that and then how did it develop oh regress or however you want to phrase it yeah well the first so I had um I had a particular Devotion to um to pan it first and then Apollo and I was really fascinated by the idea of healing spells and uh or you know abusive ritual to to heal and so when I started to go into true you know magic white magic as it's called because it's supposed to be benevolent um I was I started doing rituals for healing to try to I wanted to be a Healer which again I think is part of the Innocence you know um and uh and I probably don't I don't want to go probably into too much detail about what that looked like but I uh it was efficacious it you know and I and I I I would stand by that I mean I think that the I I believe that there was um that something happened I I witnessed stuff happen um as a middle schooler this was probably getting into high school okay yeah um but I was uh yeah I it so you realized at some point this isn't just make believe this isn't just nerdy things there's some this affects things I wasn't surprised when it worked because I did believe it I've and I think this is going back to I think that I you know um I think that I for whatever reason um from the time that I think recognizing the the truth in uh in the Supernatural um I immediately it clicked I've never doubted the supernatural this this is something that I've nothing that happens really surprises me in the spiritual world because you know I I don't know why but for whatever reason my temperament my I it's something that I I believe in more than the natural and so when these things started to work it was it wasn't so much a oh wow this stuff is real it was more of uh yeah I'm getting really good at this this is cool so I'm not going to make you share what you don't want to share but do you mind me asking why it is you don't want to go into detail um I I'm always uh I'm always worried about encouraging people sure that because um one of the when I so if I can just take a a quick segue I've I've wanted to talk about this for years and I'm hoping to help people and my my old priest who was a wonderful wonderful fraternity priest I love him to death he he urged me not to for a couple of reasons one of which was that um if I relive it too much he said you could get sucked back into it if your experiences were real you know the demons are never going to right be very far from you right and uh so he's so he doesn't he I I totally understand that I had a I had a conversation with my current spiritual father and um he he gave me the go ahead he said if God is putting this on your heart then you should you should do it I wouldn't have done it otherwise I wonder if this is similar to say other sort of obsessions people get into say with pornography you know there's a way to talk about one's experience with pornography without glorifying it and you don't want to speak or let's say just a hedonistic lifestyle and you can tell me if it's totally different right but I know when I'm say sharing how I came to Christ I I want to maybe point out the road I was going down but I don't want to speak about it in a way that others would think oh gee that's that sounds kind of cool fun I want to do that is it like that or is it maybe that on steroids or is it different yes I am I can't imagine myself ever going back to that but my priests knows better than I do and if I could get sucked back into it knowing what I do now um I would hate for anyone who has the whisper yeah to uh to for me to encourage them all yeah I mean I'd rather just say that it um stuff happened yep that's fine you know one of the reasons I thought this conversation was so important to have is that it seems that as Christianity evaporates from American culture and other cultures around the world um there's a vacuum there and that vacuum seems to be being filled by New Age spirituality and I mean I think all of us realize there's been a rise in Satanism like we've been hearing a lot more about it and I think this rushes to take its place so I'm I'm I think that this will be by God's blessing you know um a Grace to those who may go down that road or maybe currently tempted or who yeah yeah I'm um still I mean I think especially because healing is um I think a lot of people in desperation especially with illness yeah turn to can be tempted to turn to certain things it reminds you of Thomas aquinas's point that we don't commit evil for the sake of evil we we commit evil because we perceive it to be a good it's why people go to tarot card readers and use Ouija boards they're trying to attain information that they think would benefit them or others yes yeah I uh I did I did both those things yeah and um yeah no please did you then share these experiences with friends or family or did you keep them to yourself yeah I I did I um at that point I didn't have a ton of friends most of the friends that I had were involved with this stuff uh and and I did and I you know they were impressed and we would sort of compare notes and see the Vesper was talking about this when she was on your show yeah it's um did that surprise you at all to hear her powerful stories no no I wept like the whole time I love that woman yeah yeah you know for those watching if you haven't seen my interview with uh Vespa Stamper on her conversion from Wicca please go watch it it was glorious my wife was I I told my wife before we got married that I the other stuff happened and but I I didn't go into detail before the obviously the reason that I explained but um when she we were watching it together and I think it hit her like what it was like for me and uh and she you know she was she she wept too she uh because it resonated so much and um that yeah that child that childish experimentation and um you know wanting power wanting acceptance and it it I feel there's a part of me that doesn't want to I know there's a part of me that doesn't want to go into detail too because people are gonna say oh he was just a stupid kid he thought he was doing stuff that he wasn't which might be true I mean I don't know I'm not I'm not a reliable narrator but uh it felt it felt real and I know that the stuff that happened later was was real I mean I I would uh if someone wants to say I didn't I wasn't a good magician okay but if that when we get into this Satanist stuff if anyone wants to say oh that's all I would I would I would push back hard on that um but we can yeah we can go into that okay um yeah so I um in the course of I so you know my the circle that I had at that time were they were they were into white magic they were I mean I do believe really really good people you know mostly younger people uh just trying to you know little love spells and stuff for the the girls and then I listen to the healing stuff and but then as I I got really interested in um in Rune casting Rune spells and then I found demonic sigils can you explain both of those things to me yeah so runes I mean if people probably know what ruins other ancient symbols that have um that have power are supposed to have they probably do have power um but sigils are symbols that you draw as part of ritual magic to summon demons and every demon has his own sigil were you referring to them as demons at the time yeah I mean the demon I I don't I don't actually know the exact etymology but demon is very closely related to the word Damon d-a-e-m-o-n which is um a kind of powerful force and so for me and for a lot of people that are not that at that point I was not a Satanist I was probably some kind of Wiccan I guess and uh for people that that practice white magic with deemed Damons demons they uh it they they don't consider them evil they consider them uh more like natural spirits but particularly natural spirits that are that have been identified by Christianity as you know particularly powerful evil so there's there's obviously a draw there if you're if you're kind of rebelling against a Christian upbringing you know you you gravitate towards that and it's you know it's like oh it's not they're not really demons they're actually and this is the um I I had a I don't even know if I want to say their names I won't say the names I had I had I had relationships with uh spiritual relationships with a few different demons and then what does that mean I don't think I should probably talk about it okay is it like a person who would think they have a relationship with a saint or a guardian angel or something like that or is it much more involved at first yeah it was more like that it was more like that I mean there was um there was there was there was presence and then uh but then I I worked my way up to Lucifer and uh and Lucifer obviously you know in the luciferian tradition um which is a it's a it's the belief that Lucifer is you know that he's kind of a Promethean hero he Rebels against God he brings light he says the Morning Star right and he's always depicted as this beautiful angel um kind of cold and haughty but that's because he has power and he gives you this power and so I eventually I became pretty much just uh exclusively a luciferian and I uh and I remember you know being in high school and uh I I I can still I could still do it I mean I I drew I drew the Sigil of Lucifer on my notebooks the way a school girl would draw the name of her Crush like my I they're probably in my parents basement I had notebooks math notebooks and history notebooks and English notebooks covered with sigil Lucifer and I was I was absolutely you know I was like yeah it was like a crush I was infatuated with Lucifer and um and this uh this eventually you know again through the the influence of the internet it developed I developed into a Satanist a theistic what they call traditionalist or theistic Satanist as opposed to a levy and Satanist could you tell us the difference yeah so Levain Satanism is if you if you read about the Church of Satan in the news they have a van Satanist they claim not to believe in a literal Satan but Satan as a as a symbol of human freedom and of rebelling against Christian morality but then there's a different path called theistic Satanism or traditional Satanism which believes in Satan literally believes in Satan takes the side of Darkness um and it's a it's kind of it's an interesting um patent switch because you come I think and I've talked to people that I've had the same experience they come to Lucifer because they want light and then they find themselves going into darkness and then craving the darkness and uh I mean I'm not going to pretend like I was some great you know dark philosopher like you know something out of Lovecraft um I but I was like a punk right I was just a punk kid and uh I bought you know I I had a sweatshirt that I got from uh from Spencer's that had the Sigil of Baphomet on the back and I was like I was all dark and grungy and I was you know very proud of my Satanism and I talked about it too at this point did your parents intervene no I uh I I don't know what they thought I I didn't really I didn't talk to them about it I've I'm not a very good son I think that that's one of one of the pitfalls of being a really good parent and and uh and making sure that your children always know that you love them is that they take liberties with that and I've taken horrible liberties with my parents love my whole life and uh and I don't I think at this I think at this point you know I was kind of I wasn't I wasn't going to talk to them about it openly but I think that they probably thought that I was going through an emo phase or goth phase you know what I mean I don't think that they they knew how literally to take it um but um and at this point you know I was I was kind of shunning my old you know Wiccan friends um I thought that they were you know weak because they were only interested in the the white magic and I I honestly you know I yeah I uh it became less about the met I did still practice magic but it became less about the magic and more about the worship of Satan and I I don't know people listening to this this might this might not make any sense but it was uh it was just I I became so consumed by this personality and I think that I don't know if the person is the right word I think they say that angels are purses right yes and it was a personality and I had a relationship with this personality and I remember when I was one you know I you know one day I was in my room and I I lit the the red candles and I um and I was doing a a prayer and uh and I uh and I uh I said I I don't even know if I want to I probably should say though I I I I told Satan you know I don't want to sell you my soul I said just take it take it I love you I want you to have this I want yeah and um I think we'll go into this but I think in the end that's probably what saved me um or at least oh God to keep a foot in the door but um because it was taken not given or because uh I don't think Satan can't do anything with love Satan doesn't want love um he father amort said that Satan doesn't have children because he can't create he can't love Satan doesn't want children he wants slaves and uh and I think you know as John the Beloved says God is love and if you're and I think as long as you're trying as you're looking oh and mother Ileana says in her her beautiful book she says we're born searching for the face of love and I think at that point I was still looking for love and then Satan couldn't give me that and he couldn't do anything with the love that I was giving him by the way if there are any exorcists watching this and I'm doing something wrong please forgive me but um I uh I I I remember the first time I read the uh The Chronicles of Narnia and I know you don't like these no I like them I like some of them to my kids yeah the uh in the last battle where um was emeth the worshiper of Tash okay the good um Kellerman um foreign as an evil um in eth comes before Aslan and he's she says oh God now I'm gonna be smote by the good God right and um and Aslan says you know you you whatever good you did in tash's name you did in my name because you can't do good in the name of evil so does you know so to speak and I and I and I read I remember reading that and and uh I have the gift of tears and just weeping and and thinking you know that's what I think I think that's what say I think when I when I I think I think when I said you know Satan I love you I want to give myself to you I take my soul I don't want I don't want anything in return I think God set up and he kind of snuck snuck his foot in the door and said you know this is this is my opening and um yeah so thank God because eventually I did fall in with a very different a very different group did you maintain this relationship with the girl from middle school no no it's burned her spurned everyone spurned my parents and uh but I fell in with this other group and I um most most I I don't know if most some magic groups are not United by like a common cosmology they're United by uh by a desire for power for to practice magic together magic is more powerful when you practice it together they say that's probably true and uh and so I fell in with this other group that was more that was interested in black magic and some were Satan some weren't some were just wiccans who were interested in dark and some were um oh there's a term for it it's a uh it's a different it's kind of like an atheistic magic sect it's gonna come to me later but uh so we were we were United by the kind of the kind of ritually kind of magic we wanted to do not by a common belief system and I was involved with this group for a while and uh and I you know just going through the ranks and um and then the the final initiation no one was supposed to talk about unless they uh unless they've been through it and the I remember a friend of mine in the group went through the ritual and it was uh then he he told me afterwards he came to me he looked he looked he was I mean he was in his teens and he looked like he looked like an old man he was Haggard he was you know pale he was sickly he could he couldn't make eye contact with me and uh he said I went through the final initiation and I said oh and he said he said I need to tell you what happens and I can't talk about what happens but um it's horrible it's it was horrible it wasn't I don't think it was anything criminal um but it was uh it was pretty well it probably was I don't know shouldn't I'm I'm trying to I'm trying to save you illegal problems but it was uh it was terrible and um and I was and I I was like I'm getting out I don't want I don't want anything to do with this and uh and it reminded and years later I thought about this when I was reading the questions essay the diabolist where the where his friend The Satanist says you know if I if and he's he says he's listening to this this evil art student talked to one of his friends and um and he doesn't hear what the other person proposes to the diabolist but the diabolus says if if I did if I if I do this I shan't know the difference between right and wrong anymore and it was like a it was a moment like that for me when I realized as much as I think that I love evil I don't love this I don't want anything to do with this and um and so I got out I just stopped talking to those people I uh I I stopped answering phone calls and you text messages I didn't I and I I thought I I pretty much I gave the whole thing up completely um I burned my copy of all of my uh all my ritual books I threw away all of the the Garb and all of my you know Spencer's Punk Satanist clothing and were you afraid that not going through the final initiation or burning the books cutting off your relationships would ruin the relationship you had with the Demonic that you had come to obsess over and desire or did you not want that relationship I didn't want it anymore yeah and I don't I don't it I don't I don't remember it as a moment of saying oh my gosh this was all it took me let me get into this it took it took me about a year to realize how bad it had been but I I think that there was a part again I think there was a part of me that was still just looking for truth and beauty and uh and that and so I I remember it as more of a uh oh man I really got off course let me try something else you know um I've struggled with my lack of guilt my ever ever since I've struggled with a lack of guilt and I've had that's been a lot of the spiritual direction that I've gone through and um my priests have said my very good priests have said you know you've you've been to confession you've been forgiven he's I said yeah but Saint Francis of Assisi wept over his sins every night and they said that was a Grace um you know God doesn't necessarily want you to feel that sorrow he wants you to feel forgiven he wants you to feel lightness and but at that point I uh I have to trust that but at that point I um I didn't I it was uh it was I was I was horrified and disgusted by what had by what he told me um and I and it kind of shattered my Illusions about black magic and not that again I still believe that it something happens I mean I remember I remember the the when I when I gave when I when I surrendered myself to Satan I remember this again the bait and switch I um I don't probably shouldn't talk about that either I saw I had my first personal encounter with a demon and it was and it was hideous and uh and this is how I mean this is the stupidity that I think is Manifest at every point in this story but I wasn't I wasn't horrible I wasn't surprised and I wasn't horrified um I thought I was so grateful that he finally showed me his true face which is which is evil and uh and just in in hideous um but I think it was it was when it intersected with the heat when I when it it when it became it became real I mean really real for me when I I realized what other people were doing it was in my it seemed like it was something that was just happening in my head to me not in my head but just in my um I don't know this does this make sense at all um say no no well is it you're talking about like how you were processing these experiences and your kind of subjective experience of it all and you were wondering if others had the same thing maybe I'm not understanding it's hard to it's a little hard to describe um do it try it again I think that there was a gnosticism there is always a gnosticism with magic and I think that the the spiritual darkness is very attractive I mean sometimes the physical I'm not sometimes the physical darkness is what's really attractive you know what I mean it's like the uh there are very good people that have very disordered physical sexual whatever desires people that don't want them people that shun them but are yet drawn to them yeah I'm not you know thank God I'm not I shouldn't say this because this is where the you know this is when the devil goes at you but I don't you know I don't really struggle the sexual sins or physical that's I've always struggled with spiritual sins like this and um and I so the the the separation of the body and the soul I I was uh I was so immersed in the spiritual darkness and I was drawn to that and I was feeding into it but when it when the um when it became I don't know how to describe this without going into too much detail but there was uh there was a a ritual sexual aspect of this initiation and um that disgusted me and it wasn't it was I mean it's it's it's probably worse than you could imagine um and so I was I had been I had been drawn to the darkness but I was in the spiritual Darkness but I was repulsed by the by what by this part of it okay um and because you said you were coming up the ranks within a particular group yeah um and it's I suppose surprising to me that the final initiation was so grotesque it turned you off completely I would think that it would be something of a kind of a gradual process into no I had no idea we were doing we were still doing um just Rich magic rituals there wasn't the um the sexual aspect was only for the the initiates um I think probably because they didn't want you know the faint of heart to run off and talk about what they were doing and I probably should have told someone but um it was uh yeah yeah um I didn't realize that was a part of it and I guess I should have knowing having read about what happens in medieval black masses right yeah there's always a sexual aspect yeah and um and that was not that wasn't what drew me to it and I didn't I didn't expect it to be in a part of it but of course it was I mean I guess it was another I'm just processing this now but I I guess inevitably it had to become sexual but it was uh it didn't occur to me and so this was the that was the final initiation it was a and um and that I'd never had any interest in that and it it still disgusted me and I I wanted nothing to do with it yeah so I yeah that's probably very unsatisfying answer that's okay I don't know how to I don't know how to go into it in any more detail without it's okay yeah yeah so you cut off relationship with these folks yeah you burnt your punk satanic t-shirts and things put in the books um did you ever read the Satanic Bible and what is that um the Satanic Bible is Levan Satanist text so um it's not I did own a copy um I found a cop I found a copy of my my little girl that I dated later after I had my reversion I found a copy in her apartment I was like what is this and she said oh I was just having a look through and I I threw it in the trash I said you don't want this in your life I said this is this is a very slippery slope and I I do believe I do I am okay I'm 100 certain that the higher levels of the Church of Satan and people like um what's his name Lucius Grimes that sounds like something from a cartoon but he's got a he's he's the head of the Church of Satan or some or the satanic temple in Massachusetts Thursdays on it yeah anyway he um I'm certain that he's a theistic Satanist and he's tricking people into thinking that oh you know Satan is just a symbol of Freedom he's the one that's erecting all those Baphomet statues Lucian Lucian Grieves yeah and he's yeah the guy looks like a cartoon villain yeah you've seen pictures of this guy yeah yeah yes he's an American is he yes I think so I've never heard him speak but you see he's from Massachusetts born Detroit Michigan okay he's based in his group's based in Salem they were just firebombed last year I didn't feel that bad I shouldn't say that world's smallest no one died if someone died that would be sad yeah if the satanic temple is destroyed yeah um but he I mean I'm I I'm certain that he's a theistic satanistan oh yeah yeah he believes anyone at the higher levels believes because they'll encounter it at some point they'll know um so is there like a conversion experience that often happens between say it again Levan satanists to theistic satanists as they get deeper into it I I I mean I've never there are other um there are other converts from Satanism to Christianity that have talked about their conversion I I've tried not I've tried to steer clear they might have some insight I was never a van Satanist I because it's it's technically atheistic and I I don't believe that um but I just imagine that as you begin to encounter the supernatural as you delve into this yeah it's a little bit more difficult to deny they I don't see how they couldn't yeah because they do black masses they do you know old black masses um with all the trimmings you know and there's I mean there's photographs there's like there's text that you could any well um they're open about it yeah and um you can't and this is the thing you can't I know yeah you um you can't this is why exorcists always say don't mess with Ouija boards don't mess with tarot because if you if you invite if you invite demons into your life um they'll come and they won't care if you're kidding or not they'll just come okay keep going I'm just I'm looking for something um were you ever possessed and if not why not the uh my my uh after I made my first confession years later that was the first question my uh my priest asked me was um you know do you do you want to talk to an exorcist and I said I don't I don't feel the need I would I would tell you if I did I mean they say the classic signs of um of possession or well you know besides the the the vomiting Nails which does happen um are you can't you you physically can't receive the sacrament of uh confession and you physically can't receive the Eucharist and I did that say that again oh if I see yeah so I I mean I I could be demonically I think it's oppressed yeah um but I was never possessed and and that's I think the very simple reason is that um he already possessed you in a deeper way maybe are they talking about possession being at least The Exorcist I've spoken to when the demon has the body but not necessarily the soul and that's why one exercise said to me that one confession is worth a hundred thousand exorcisms yes yeah uh well you know it's Satan will possess or not possess people um depending on you know whether he thinks that it will uh it will serve his ends or not but uh a lot of the times this is a father Immortal so said that um oftentimes possessions um while obviously terrible in themselves um will lead many people to the church the person who's possessed will all of a sudden realize that there's a supernatural Dimension and uh and then there oftentimes their families will convert because they'll see the power the reality of the of the devil and the power of the church and uh and so it's it doesn't oh so Satan isn't necessarily going to possess everyone who um who gives him the opportunity he'll use them you know sometimes that could in perhaps be counter productive for him um like you said I mean he doesn't he just wants you to go to hell he doesn't really care how you get there he'll use any means um and you know the the gate that leads to Salvation is very narrow there's lots of different roads that lead to damnation um and so you know I I was already on the road and he didn't need to mess with that formula I had you know can we say a prayer yes would you mind if I just read this prayer is prayers against demonic influence I say it every day in the name of the father Son and Holy Spirit I'm in almighty God who delivered your people from the bondage of the adversary and through your sun cast down Satan like lightning Deliver Us also from every influence of evil and unclean spirits command Satan to depart far from us by the power of your only begotten son our Lord Jesus Christ rescue us from demonic imaginings and darkness fill us with the light of your holy spirit that we may be guarded against all the snares of the cunning demons grant that your angel will always go before us and lead us in the path of righteousness all the days of our life so that we may give glory and honor to your most holy name Father Son and Holy Spirit now and always and forever and ever amen all right I want to say thank you to Emmaus Academy they've put out this brand new digital platform to help you grow in your love of sacred scripture when they thought your Love Of Christ if you're like me you know how tempting it is just to waste so much of your day on YouTube like maybe you're doing now or listening to political podcasts and other things the truth is we do often have the time to grow in our knowledge and love of scripture we just need a helping hand and that's what this brand new digital learning platform is going to help you do it has short courses on scripture that you can take you can learn from Dr Scott Hahn Dr John bergsma father Boniface Hicks many more I've been on this platform I have a subscription to it and um I mean it when I say it's actually really excellent and it'll help you love scripture I think a lot of us want to love scripture but we find we fight I don't know we feel guilty that we don't love it as much as we should platform forms like this will help you do that so click the link in the description Saint paulcenter.com Matt and sign up when you sign up you get two weeks free to the entire platform I mean think about how many times you and I have subscribed to say Hulu or something else um when we could be doing something like this and growing a love of scripture so again samepoolcenter.com sign up today you get two weeks for free you don't think it's worth it after that time cancel it you won't be charged or sent but I think you'd be really impressed with what you see all right so where did you um where did we so you burnt your books good for you yeah no I not and not all of them at first and this is the again I didn't uh in retrospect it seems so linear but I mean I didn't I didn't get rid of my Greek Pagan statues I didn't go back to that but I um I didn't think that that was part of the problem I didn't see the I didn't see that it was all connected um so I uh I eventually I became a I decided to try Buddhism just you know going to the next thing and there was a Buddhist temple in Haverhill for some reason that met in some you know the the priest's apartment and uh I uh I was a Buddhist for you know a fair while how old were you at this point and how long did that last the time I get so that's okay but like teenagers teenagers you're still in high school yeah High School yeah and that I mean I guess I mean I see a fair while it was you know it was it was a brief phase it was but it was enough that I I wasn't really thinking about the Satanist stuff anymore and it was uh it wasn't you know it wasn't a part of my life it wasn't a part of my um my you know my short-term memory you know what I mean and I thought I thought I'd moved on I thought that I was it was as you know it was as simple as um as just walking away from it and um and like you said I mean what we're talking about I mean and yeah it's amazing that it didn't it hasn't bothered me more it it has certainly has it has had lingering effects I mean I um every I've never talked about this at this length with anyone partially because I don't I still don't know how to talk about it and to the point about that disclaimer like I'm still not totally convinced that this is the right thing to do but my the people that I trust my spiritual um fathers have said that if God's putting it on your heart you should try to help people in any way that you know and um yeah but it is it is remarkable that I I guess I have it hasn't had more of an impact on my later life that's that's God's grace and that was and that's I think that's part of why I feel like I can talk about it I mean I got because my someone asked me you know aren't you afraid of demonic attack and I hadn't thought about it but I thought well God's God protect me without asking him to you know he was always he was always there protecting me um and I don't know how I don't know why some people are protected and others are not um but he's always taken very good care of me uh like I said I'm a very I'm a very bad son I'm a very bad son to my my my natural parents but I'm also very bad son to God I don't I'm not newly as grateful to him as I should be but um it hasn't been it hasn't been something that um has had any lingering as far as I can tell yeah was it I mean you talked about your initial obsession with Lucifer and it was like this relationship was there a sense of breaking up oh that's a great question did you miss it as a Buddhist I was uh when you asked me to send you an email with the brief rundown of of my story and so we could talk about it oh you know and I was going through I didn't I'd never really I'd never sat down and thought about it since it happened I'd never you know especially after I because my my first priest when I told him all of this he said that's my other priesthood put it out of your mind don't think about it that's don't give the demons an opening and I remember when I uh when I was writing you the email and uh I felt it come back a little bit what what did you feel come back the um the attraction yeah and in a weird way the love and uh the infatuation I guess it wasn't love it was infatuation but and um I was I was you know I probably shouldn't go into too much detail I didn't indulge in anything obviously but I was uh my my mind just started getting carried away by it and um and then I I kind of snapped back and I said oh that's what he meant that's what my priest meant it's not gonna go away and uh it was yeah I it in a way it did it did uh it was it was like it was it felt like a kind of a oh I missed him I missed what I thought we had like a first love you know it was it felt like in a way it felt like a shattered illusion I knew that I knew that it was kind of a dead end and it was I knew that wasn't what I was looking for but um I mean I'd be lying if I said I don't still it doesn't still come back I guess it does I didn't expect it to yeah um sure how did you go from Buddhism to accepting Christ I stopped going to Bible camp for obvious reasons but I'd gone to a great Presbyterian Bible camp in New Hampshire from my my mother went there my aunts and uncles went there I went there my mom was the nurse and I used yeah stopped going for obvious reasons but when I became a Buddhist I uh I was like oh that was fun so I decided to go back and uh as a CIT a counselor in training okay yeah so I was uh they didn't know probably shouldn't have if they had known I was a bad choice yeah but it's not their fault I don't want anyone that's watching this that uh knows the camp they didn't they knew nothing but uh I was um yeah I was a Buddhist and uh but being being back I had always loved this camp and I'd always felt so close to Christ there and uh and then going back I realized that what I've been looking for I'd had all along and you know it's things like Retreats and and Bible camps are so special you know you wish you could just take that with you everywhere um you wish it was you wish you'd never had to leave Retreat which you never had to leave and um part of that's a childish you know Camp's fun but but part of it looking back I still whenever I need to refresh myself um I think about that and I listen to the the worship songs that we sang at bible camp and I and I remember sitting on the cots and and studying scripture and uh and going back into that yeah it was it was you know it was like it was like coming home it was coming it was coming home and uh and I remember we I was the CIT for you know three weeks and I uh I was slowly you know I realized that you know meditation had mind-clearing meditation has nothing on you know worshiping the reason and at first you know I was just and I say you know I say I say worship just because at first I wasn't I wasn't doing it as a Christian or I wasn't thinking of it as a as a True Religion I was just having a lot of fun and uh and then over the course of the month I it I've I felt my heart softening and I was you know doing some soul searching and then we went all the uh the the cits and I think some of the older campers went on a uh a trip to the the pastor that led the camp he has a house on Cape Braden Island and we went up there and we were rafting in Canada yeah yeah yeah most most Presbyterians in New England are Canadians it's like the Canadian ethnic religion yeah and uh and so we went to uh we went to his house and and he was just a wonderful wonderful Pastor I love him to death I still have the he gave me his Bible after that I told him all this and I still have it I cherish it he was a total hippie it's called the green Bible someone can look it up the cover's hemp all the passages that relate to ecology are in green text there's no there's no red letter for the words of Christ there's just green right um total total hippie what a wonderful Guy and um and I I pulled him aside one night and I said I said Mark I have to tell you something and uh I told I you know I spilled my guts and um he listened to it he cried he said you know do you do you want to be a Christian again or something like that I said yeah I do he said do you want God to forgive you I said yes I do and he put his hand he put his hand on my shoulder he said the knees you've got it brother you got it he said he loves you he said he's not he's not gonna let you go over he's not gonna you know you he you you you tried to give your soul to the devil you know it's not his everything's God's and uh and it was such a relief and that was um my literal come to you and I you know I keep when I read Faust have you ever read Marlo's Faust do you know this this the plot there's a magician who sells his soul to a demon and uh and he in exchange for wealth and and women and stuff like that and then finally Mephistopheles comes to collect his Dew and he's dragging files to tell the Angels say just repent just repent and Faust says no it's too late it's too late and they say no it's not and they're begging with him to repent until the moment he's swallowed and um and this is the this is the in the you know in the Eastern Church we talk about this the metanoia the turning back yeah and it's you know when you you when the uh when The Prodigal Son turns back to the father you know he doesn't he doesn't even get to his father's house yet the moment he turns back the father books it down the road he's like I got you he he doesn't even he doesn't even begin to apologize before the father starts rushing over with his cloak in his rings and uh and that was my uh that was the moment that I you know I I still consider that you know I didn't become Catholic for years later but that was my that was my turning back that was when I I repented and the father just rushed it was like oh you're back I knew you'd be back and uh yeah so that was um so after that point I was uh again hadn't hadn't quite grappled yeah I I was on the road I guess to Catholicism but I I do consider that my my real the conversion my room my uh my moment of repent might come to Jesus moment during your Satanist days did you hold any animosity towards Christ I tried to and this is what I mean I I uh I I never uh I wanted to hate him more than I did um I couldn't really there was the idea that you know that I I think I hated God I hated what the satanists believe about God and what does Satanist believe about God that he you know he he oppresses us he enslaves us he uh he puts all these restrictions on our natural appetites that don't belong there and Satan gives us freedom he lets us indulge he gives us power God calls us to be meek and and weak and uh and I hated that of course that's not true but um I didn't hate G I couldn't I couldn't really bring myself to hate I couldn't think of a reason to hate Jesus you know what I mean because he's he doesn't talk about that God and um I didn't really I didn't really think about it I was I I I I I hated the god I hated who I thought was God um but the this is this is what I mean like God some somehow God was keeping me in at least in my peripheral vision on the right thing and uh I couldn't really bring myself to have anything against Jesus um I know that there's emphasis on the Black Mass say yeah and um so as a Satanist did you have any opinions about the Catholic Church per se I hated the cat uh well interest um my uh my grandparents were very anti-catholic I hated the Catholic Church before I was a Satanist um that didn't change what did you hate about Catholicism I had I had I had a i i this okay can I tell the whole story because I don't want to say this and then stop halfway because it's a it's a beautiful story when I was um my grandfather who was my my middle name is Warren his name is Warren he's my he's the best friend I ever had ever will have and uh he used to he was the deputy fire chief in our city and he loved to tell this story where uh when he got when the city got its first Italian mayor um and he didn't like him he's a Master Mason my grandfather was a Master Mason he was all and he said one day the chief the fire department was having problems and my grandfather blamed you know the Irish and stuff and so the uh so that he called the mayor called him in to his office and said um he said Deputy what what's wrong with the Department he said you want to know what the problem with the Department is mayor he said yeah I do and he said I slammed my hands on his test he said there's two GD many Roman Catholics and uh so we I I I hadn't it so I had this Prejudice yeah but I have to I have to tell the rest of the story please years later after I become Catholic my grandfather was dying and he was living with us he ate congestive heart failure and I used to catch him watching EWTN in the middle of the night he couldn't sleep he was so afraid of death he couldn't sleep ever and he'd nod off in his chair for a couple of hours a night but I catch him watching the mass on EWTN and then one day he said to me um he said Mike I want to go to confession I said why do you want to go to confession he said I just feel like it's something I have to do I said I can call my priest he said would you I said yeah of course are you a Catholic at this point yeah yeah and so I brought him to uh my one of my priests at the time father Raymond Vander Mortel the architis Boston and um I I dropped him off he couldn't drive he could barely walk and uh and I they were they were in there they were there for an hour just talking I don't I mean they were they weren't in the confessional they were talking in the in a private room he couldn't go into a confessionally um but they they you know they were there for about an hour and then my grandfather came out tears tears and he got I helped him into the car I just I said was it good and he said I want to start coming to mass with you and that was on a I think that was on a Wednesday and then Saturday he went into renal failure slipped into a coma and died and uh it was cool yeah oh Mother Angelica we love you pray for us yeah I I know of at least one convert you know that she's helped to win from did he did he watch her as well or just the mass he was always watching EWTN he must have come across her yeah yeah she was the kind of person they would have liked it was awesome it was amazing yeah and I was uh I was worried about him because he wasn't just not Catholic he didn't like the Catholic church he was a Master Mason um he was he he I remember when he was first checked into the hospital they added they they said you know name he gave his name birthday religion he said I'm a Freemason [Music] I called him pal he said pal you're not supposed to say that he said what he's he said you're not supposed to say it's a religion he says but it is I said I know that I said but you're not supposed to tell people he said oh well you know I'm dying so what do I have to lose so uh yeah it was um yeah I can't I you know I'll know I can't I couldn't be more grateful just for that that assurance that yeah you found it at the end that's great yeah so you had you kind of had more of a prejudice against the Catholic church that wasn't based on factual things well I didn't know I just think it's weird because you don't I imagine you don't have many groups of satanists conducting black Baptist services right but you do have them conducting black masses and so I would imagine that satanists have a particular opinion about the the Catholic Church oh yeah oh yeah yeah I mean the Catholic but this is I I don't know I don't want to go into this for a different reason but I will okay um I went I went to Catholic schools for fifth grade through 12th and they were no offense to anyone listening to this they were really liberal novus ordo Catholic schools and I uh I grew up in one of those yeah it was hopeless and so I I read about what Satan stated about the Catholic church that's not there I never found it yeah I I was like you know oh it's patriarchal it's oppressive and uh well yeah yeah and um so I I had a kind of an Intel like I you know I hated Pope Benedict because you know I hated I would like I would I hated the Catholic Church as a Prejudice and I hated it in theory but I was just going to you know come to the feast there wasn't much there for us statements are getting scared of that kind of stuff yeah yeah and I you know there are people that go to those masses that are much holier than I am and I hate to say stuff like that but there was just no there was no this was the tradition bequeathed to them you know what I mean this is their tradition yes a lot of us didn't have any choice we were just given On Eagle's Wings without asking for it it was our school song yeah yeah and it was uh yeah I so I I I would have hated the Catholic church if I'd encountered the traditional catholic church I know I would have yes um I hated it in theory but I never I never encountered it that's so funny because converts will say I loved it in theory and then I never encountered it you hated it in theory and never encountered it yeah yeah let's take a break let's take a break and then we'll come back and we'll talk about how you became Catholic sweet be one of us we're gonna have three people smoking in this room so we'll have to see are we good is he is he is he too far away from the camera or just come in a little bit yeah right there me just pull it down a touch yeah perfect sweet all right so Presbyterian mm-hmm yeah by the way everyone watching on locals right now feel free to put in comments into the post I posted about this interview and I'll try to get some to some of the comments um how did you how did you become a catalog yeah the first um the first meaty book that I read after my reversion was Mere Christianity I found it in a bookstore in Canada when we were going back to visit family and uh I the thing and this is funny I the thing that grabbed me about it I loved it I loved everything about it but I had a crisis because uses the word sodomy in it or something and I'd never I'd never I never realized that you could have use a word like that and still be like a true intellectual Christian it struck me because my my church was you know fairly theologically Orthodox but they we didn't talk about that stuff I think that was more Yankee reticence than anything else but there was this guy talking and uh what did you find what did you not like about it well we grew up you know my again my family was my family was Republican Church going but um you know I was I was from Massachusetts and my schools were really little what do you want from me yeah I was like I thought it's either something you don't talk about or you you love it and it's fantastic and uh and I there was this guy that was like really down on it openly and it was a you know clearly a very kind good humored brilliant um and I I to this day that still strikes me that there was like you know there was the possibility to be um something the the there was there was there was clearly this like tradition of Christianity that was uh it shouldn't say it wasn't just the it wasn't just that but it was um it was it was a big part of it it was it but it was also this kind of like the gentleness and the good humor um that's it all everyone's gonna take away from this interview that way you know but uh it I realized that there was this whole other world this whole other kind of Christianity that I hadn't uh that I hadn't been exposed to that was both intellectual beautiful but also counter-cultural and so I wanted to know more and so I started reading um every C.S Lewis that I could read and also T.S Eliot his essays as well as his poetry I love his poetry too I was I went to Australia to become an Elliot scholar and uh and so I yeah I was reading these and I decided that I wanted to be an anglo-catholic okay and so I became uh I went to the local Episcopal Church which was also just flamingly liberal Pride Flags was not thrilled about that but it was ritually it was very beautiful and then I discovered the Church of the Advent in Boston which is a true conservative fish I mean it's conservative it's uh it has an LGBT community yeah um but it was uh yeah so I I did that and I became an anglo-catholic I went to uh when I went to Australia I went to an annual Catholic church when I was I did a brief stint in DC I went to a Niagara Catholic Church there and uh and I was you know a very proud anglo-catholic and uh and I I got involved with a group that doesn't exist anymore called the Sakura society which is a society for conservative traditional anglicans um in the church in the in the Episcopal church so there's lots of groups for conservative anglicans some in the Episcopal Church some in the continuing Anglican movement but this was the sector Society was particularly oriented to sort of re-evangelizing the uh the Episcopal Church and um and I was I was a very committed to the idea that you know I would I love I felt I loved Eastern Orthodoxy and I was very convinced that um the the Anglican Church was the was the patristic Church of the British Isles and that you know by extension America is Anglican territory and so Apostolic succession the United States should reside in the Episcopal Church this all sounds so nutty talking about it now because of how far gone the Episcopal Church is but I believe this obviously this is this is the Church of the Anglo-Saxon world or whatever of the anglosphere and um and so I was very and so I I had a particular bed bug about the ordinarian I hated the ordinary because it was siphoning off all of these conservative anglicans into the Catholic Church which is the worst thing they could do you know continuing Anglican movement is at least you know Protestant it's at least not part of the the Catholic to become a Roman was just the ultimate betrayal and uh so I was I was I wrote I wrote a a bunch of pamphlets and uh in a book about you know attacking the ordinarian and then um and then I but I had I had Catholic friends because you can't live in Boston and I have Catholic friends especially if you're a conservative you end who end up with a bunch of tlm friends and so one of my tlm friends was also very involved in the ordinary at Paris Boston and he said you know Mike you talk about this all the time he said have you ever actually been to an ordinarian service I said no of course not he said will you just come with me once and just see it and uh I said yeah all right if it'll make you feel better I said good opposition research and so I went and it was in the uh it was in the the the mass was in a side Chapel um in a Roman Catholic Church in uh well outside of Boston and um and the the priest who is now a very dear friend of mine father Jurgen leas was um started off as a care as an is it a charismatic Episcopalian anglo-catholic and he's got a he's a big friendly guy with a big booming Voice who preaches like a Baptist he's always talking about Jesus you know and uh and so I was I was sitting through this service and um I was like this is the worst of every world you know it's like it's not it's not the book of common prayer it's close it's pretty good um but and it's in this like this small Rinky Dink Chapel um in a Roman Catholic church and the and the priest sounds like a Baptist I was like this is confirmation bias and I was really happy that I'd gone but um then it came time for communion and I uh going to Catholic schools I always you know I you know I was I was told to you know to go up and cross my arms um and receive a blessing from the priest which I did obviously didn't do when I was a when I was a involved in Satanism but then my last you know my last year or whatever of high school I uh I started doing it just to help the line flow and um and so I was you know I I did that I went up to get a blessing I figured I I you know my my opinion was that the Roman Catholic Church was fine for Continental Europe it's a true church um and nothing against them but they don't belong in the angular sphere and so I went up to to receive a blessing and I would and I was the last person because I was sitting in the back and uh and I knelt and I crossed my arms and uh and I I've said this a bunch of times so it's possible that someone's heard this story before um but I uh as the priest was coming down the line the communion line and um in giving the Eucharist I uh I had this feeling that I've only it's a feeling that I used to get when I was picking up a friend of mine my ex-girlfriend from the airport because she was Australian and uh and when they when you're when this person that you love very much is you know coming through the gate you can sense them before you can see them and I had this this like excitement this expectation and uh I was like I wonder what this is this is odd and uh and his and he came down he was going slowly and he came coming down coming down coming down and uh so it's Jesus it's Jesus Christ and he stopped over me you know I bless you in the name of the father and of the son and of the Holy Spirit I feel like my heart stopped I I C.S Lewis says um when he because you know he was wounded at the psalm I think and he was he was shot through his shrapnel and he said I I was certain that I was dying he said I in a way I probably was he said and it was he said it wasn't uh he said I wasn't afraid he said it didn't feel like the moment for either courage or fear it was just and I had that feeling I was like I'm dead I died and I sat there and it took me a couple seconds and I realized I wasn't dead and so I stood up and my knees were my knees were weak and I walked I walked back to my pew and uh I just cried and cried and then I and then it was over and everyone went to Coffee hour and I in the priest fatherless who's the most wonderful man I've ever met he walked up to me he said hey you're new here and uh and he looked at me and he saw that my eyes were red and he said he said he said what's wrong I said I want to become a Catholic and I've never from that day had a moment stop so uh I didn't want to become ordinarian I love the ordinarian but I didn't want to become the ordinary because I wanted to be absolutely sure that I wasn't just take you know accommodating myself to the Catholic church I wanted to make sure that I was you know I wasn't just you know going to where all the conservative anglicans were going wanted to make sure so I went to The Latin Mass which I hated I went a friend of mine took me in college once and I hated it because it's in many ways very similar to the Anglican liturgy but uh you know if the priest doesn't face the people there no there aren't as many hymns it's in Latin you know there's none of the cranberry in the English a lot of it's very quiet and I didn't like it at all it was I I could probably use in a cerebral way recognize that there was Beauty there but I uh I didn't care for it and so I went to this beautiful Parish in Adelaide's in Peabody Massachusetts and [Music] um to a Latin Mass yeah and that was uh and that was but over time you know I I figured it out I uh and I I grew to I grew to love it I still love it and the priests there yeah father father David Lewis and father Raymond Evander Mortel um they did everything for me they were wonderful uh and uh and I was received yeah within a couple of another couple of months and uh I made my first confession I want to get to that yeah but before I do it's not as if you hadn't experienced the ritual of something like the Eucharist in your Anglican Church no oh yeah do you know what I'm saying yeah because I could say something well you were just moved by this beautiful ritual but no you were in an Anglican Church that presumably did something that looked very similar because almost I mean practically the same thing they I mean they uh they believe that they have the Eucharist the anglo-catholics believe that they have the Eucharist and they reference it and they have Eucharistic adoration um I've I've and I'd been to Catholic churches and I'd done it I've been to sorry to the the ordinary Parish but I've been to nicer Catholic churches I'd had I'd done this many many times before but um God decided that was the moment to reveal himself and uh and yeah that was the I had this this experience of the Eucharist and I've had yeah it's uh I've never had a doubt about this and I the sacraments are efficacious and you know that and I think that but I think people that aren't part of the Catholic Church don't realize what it's like I was uh I was at Divine Liturgy the other a couple of weeks ago and my daughter my daughter is at the uh the perfect height right now where if I hold her she can kick me between the legs nice and uh and she kept doing it during liturgy when she was being naughty and I was just I was not in the right mood and so I went up to uh I went up to receive the the uh the Eucharist and then um and and it was it was like the very first time you know the for the first time in the ordinarian chapel and I felt and I just felt it washing over me and uh and so I took her out back because I had I had to take I had to keep I had to take her with me but I went out back and into the outside the church and I started to cry and cry and I kissed her on the forehead and she she got very distressed she said Papa why are you crying I said because I'm happy and uh I'd been so mad at her and I just loved her and uh and she started to cry too and to laugh and we were just laughing and I said and I said to I said to God in my heart I was like what happened and he said uh he said we tried fatherhood your way now we're gonna try it my way and um he just and this is the and I've had I mean this is the God's been very good to me he's at time and time again he's just the sacraments just work you know they just they change you the grace the infusion of the grace and you know we're Christians we believe that God is everywhere we believe the grace is everywhere but the sacraments really are something special and you can you can feel that inferiorly I mean not always sometimes you know you just go through the motions unfortunately but there's sometimes I mean there's absolutely no reason why that should have happened I should have just gone back and grumbled in my Pew yes but he flipped that switch in my heart and he does that sometimes you know I mean I'm sure you've had experiences like that where you see the segment it's usually when you least expect it it's like when God catches you completely off guard and just bombards you with Grace and sweetness yeah yeah so I don't have this is again I'm just a very bad son I don't have as much of a Devotion to the sacraments as I should but I think it's because I take it for granted God's been so good to me with the yeah with all of this I've never had a moment to doubt hello I want to say thank you to hello which is the best not just the best Catholic app on the app store any app store it's the best app out of any app that's ever existed Catholic or otherwise I think it's finally time to say that if you want to grow in your prayer life please check out hallow.com Matt if you sign up on their website at hello.com Matt you can get the entire app for free for 90 days that's ridiculous after those 90 days if you don't agree with me that it's worth the the money that you're gonna get charged after that monthly which is a relatively small amount you can just cancel you won't be charged to send they have sleep stories they have my Catholic Lo-Fi on there they've just added the gospels a dramatized version of the gospels they have daily exegesis on mass readings which you can listen to it is fantastic so if you haven't done it already hello.com Matt sign up over there try it for free for three months ago tell us about your first confession oh yeah well it took a long time I uh my priest knew that I was into some into some some stuff and I uh and I said I said I don't think that I can because I was you know I I did I did some bad stuff apart from the magic and so I I said to my my priest I said I don't think I can remember everything and he said write it he said write it down he said just this one time okay he said write down everything that you want to tell me and I said okay so I did and it was a very long very long list and uh what was that experience like trying to remember and then putting pen to paper horrible and that was when it really that was when stuff really started to sink in because I've been I had been I've been going to this beautiful church with these beautiful holy priests and um you know how you have these moments where you just think oh my God you're so good I suck this is terrible this is terrible I'm so bad and uh I just had this moment and I was I was writing the everything down and I went to the can I went to confession with him and I [Music] and I told him uh I told him everything and uh and then afterwards he pre said you know God through the death and resurrection of his son I don't know what it is in English but he did it in English I think because he wanted me to know what was happening and uh and he pronounced he gave the Absolution and uh and then he said and then he smiled and he said you need to talk to an exorcist [Laughter] I said no I said I'll let you know but I think I'm okay right now he said okay he said he said there's massive there's math there was an evening Mass it was a feast day I think he said he said you should go to mass I said I will he said you can't receive God I said I know I know and um he said then when you get home he said burn that piece of paper he said in in never think about any of this ever again he said I said okay and he said Michael he said don't think about it he said don't let it trouble you don't let it burden you he said you are it was like what's that what's that it's not your fault I know it's not your fault and uh and finally I was I it sunk and I said okay he's you know God doesn't want us to carry that he says in the scripture he wipes the Slate clean it's like it never happened um and that's and I uh that was I I felt that I felt that I felt like the state was wash clean and I I and I remember I called my mom I said I didn't know it was possible to feel this way and my my poor mom she she it's not her it's not her tradition she she's so wonderful she's so supportive and she was like oh wow that's great and he's like I I have been unburdened by things I didn't know I was burdened by like I had my I had anxiety which I'm sure was partially demonic and that was gone um I uh I felt it I felt the Slate being wiped clean but I didn't the the mump the moment that I it all it all came together was um at the uh at the mass when uh I realized I was ready it was you know my I I I I didn't realize it in my head like oh now now it's just confirmation and Eucharist right I realized in my if I knew in my heart that I was ready now that I had done the thing that I needed to do to be received into the church and uh kind of God putting his hand on which I was like Now's the Time buddy and um and I remember the uh during it was a it was the Marion Feast I don't remember which one it was but the um the at the end they they sang you know Immaculate Mary our hearts are on fire and one of the big hurdles for me is a is a high Church Anglican and one of the things that it always even kept me in a distance from uh from the anglo-catholic movement I was never like a really true like died in the wall angle Catholic because I did it was not in to Mary and uh it's something that had bothered me and then I've been talking to my friends about and they said you know that's something it'll come look how I'm just be patient just keep trying I said okay and um at that moment it was like there was that final piece you know I and I I I that was the moment that I loved Mary that I had I had the love of Mary in my heart and uh so then my uh time goes by in my God and I get confirmed and I communed in everything that I mean every convert has this experience after confirmation I go back and I'm praying the pews and all these beautiful people keep coming saying welcome home congratulations and then the little old lady saying are you going to become a priest nope uh but I was like you know and I loved it and I was very grateful but I said I need I need some time alone and uh and I heard I heard I felt Mary in my heart say come to me I I went up to there's uh I had some experiences with Mary before that I pushed out of my this is a lot you know nothing's linear but I'd had some I'd had some very powerful encounters with Mary when I was younger and uh and I'd never let her into my heart but I had now and so I went out and she she'd protected me from a lot of things and I went to the Marion Grotto it was it was like yeah it was pouring rain and I was in my good suit and I fell down in the mud I said thank you thank you for everything that you've done for me and it was just oh yeah I don't deserve anything that I have I know what you mean I've been there I've been there arms wrapped around a Saint Joseph statue weeping like an idiot I think no one's looking I'm sorry that this is so incoherent it's not incoherent you're doing a fantastic job would you like Thursday to grab your tissue oh yeah would you mind Thursday you might just put it some there look at that okay so we don't have a tissue let's see if this works but we do a very sandpaper-ish paper towel you might want to music okay I muted the two microphones because you dropped the tissues on your thing too Matt uh all right yeah we're gonna do it you're good you're good thank you for sharing oh you're welcome yeah what a gift what a what a beautiful um vulnerability being vulnerable is difficult because uh you open yourself up for attack but it's the most beautiful thing a human can do so thank you for doing that yeah good I feel very safe there's a what's the there's a story one of the mystics tells where uh there's a a man a soldier who's lived a very disreputable life committed every sin in the book and stuff and he's he's shot and uh as he's dying he cries you know mother Mary saved me and um and then he's at the Judgment seat and uh you know he's being read he's the list of his sins and all the people that he's hurt and all the offenses that he's made to God and uh and then Christ says is there anyone that you can call to speak in your defense and then our lady's there and she wraps him in her blue mantle he called he called for me he's he's mine I'll protect I I will I'll vouch for him you know and uh I wish that I'd I probably should have I didn't want to think about this too much before I came on the show just because I you know I wanted to speak from the heart and let God guide me but I wish I'd talk more about Mary and uh but I know that she's she's protected me all the all the way what advice do you have to our many Protestant viewers about the Virgin Mary maybe it's a hang-up they currently have or an obstacle they're not sure how to overcome it's a good question I still wrestle I don't wrestle with the Theology of Mary um in the sense that it's not so but I uh I have Protestant arguments still in my head and I'm always trying to like kind of Bounce them I have I love Mary um but I'm not a theologian and I was kind of steeped in Anglican Theology and I you know so but I uh the thing that um this but it really it really clicked after we became an Eastern Catholic and uh the title of the theotokos the mother of God and um you know the I I think um some sometimes in the west you get I think a lot of Protestants are responding to a uh a particular kind of Marian theology that can sometimes be unhealthy like there's a uh there's a story about a um there's a medieval Apparition where there's a a monk who uh who never who never ceases to repeat this the Angelic salutation and um and it's kind of you know like the the cash and you know sort of the prayer of the heart way and um and Mary appears to this Monk and says um my son thanks you for saluting me but asks that you salute him also you know so um but by no means the majority of Catholics but there but I think a lot of Protestants encounter and then sometimes with selective memory choose to that they're you know that that sometimes you know yeah the um Marian devotion can Eclipse Devotion to the Lord um that's obviously not what the church wants but I remember one story I I don't this is nothing against my dad who I love but he always he uh one of the I remember he when we were when I first became Catholic he loves to tell this story about my great-grandmother who uh who had a great Devotion to the Blessed Mother and it was always the Blessed Mother and um in my my my my dad loves to see he's asked her once you know Nana why do you always pray to the Blessed Mother and um and she said because if you want something from a man you go to his mother and there's something beautiful and true about that but at the same time yeah you want to go to Christ yeah you want to be feel like you can go to Christ right uh and so I think a lot of Protestants I mean my grant my great grandma I'm sure she's in heaven I mean this is not this is not like uh right but I think that a lot of Protestants see that and they say you know why isn't Jesus enough and um and in the east in the Eastern Christian tradition um the type part you know the uh our lady is always the theotokos you know that's that's the and it's always the uh she we she's always holding Christ in her arms and you can and uh she's always pointing us to him and uh and I think also uh this is getting into the weeds I hope it's okay in the um the one of the things that I've I carried with me from when I was kind of an anglo-catholic with Orthodox sympathies was the was the um I don't I don't think I don't think you can have Christianity make sense without a pretty robust understanding of theosis and uh or divinization and really the besides the fact that she's Jesus's Mom the reason that Mary is so important in the East is because she was the first person that did it you know she's re she's revered um not just as the mother of God but as the model of all Christians and um she she does the thing that you need to do if you want to become like Christ and this is this is why you know Saint Luke was painting a saint Luke painted an icon of our lady and it's why you know as it's this isn't like a modern Innovation some of them some of the stuff in the west some of the more the what they call the Marian excesses and the western church and again this is no judgment um is Medieval but it's you know you go back to the early church and there's huge Devotion to our lady for that reason they didn't have a very complex Marion theology but they knew her personally yeah they saw how Christ loved her they saw what her prayers did and when she prayed on her deathbed to see the apostles one last time they appeared to her she was clearly this very special lady and um she's the she's the perfect Christian you know and that's um and I found I found that's so if so compelling when I discovered it yeah yeah I would recommend to Protestants that they read the catechism of the Catholic church and what it has to say about our blessed mother because to be a Catholic does not mean you have to resonate with how every saint speaks about every Catholic devotion I mean I've been a Catholic since I was baptized as an infant and I read certain Saints in the books of Virgin Mary and I think to myself yeah it's not doing it for Me Maybe a will later and maybe it's my fault but maybe it isn't it's okay you know we don't have to gravitate towards every particular Saint what they have to say but the Blessed Virgin Mary so yeah don't don't let that be a stumbling block I suppose I would say but um but yeah if it's if it's good enough for the earliest Christians yeah also I mean I know this is kind of been said but she has a unique relationship with each person of the Blessed Trinity in a way that no other creature can be said to have to said to have uh you're a Son of God the Father she's not only the daughter of God the Father she is in a very real way the spouse of God the Holy Spirit and the mother of God the son I never thought of that yeah that's really cool and like one Saint said that she's she's like the moon which reflects the radiance of the sun yeah yeah it's all from him but just like God just like God doesn't get jealous when we Marvel at the beauty of the moon or a mountain range or a baby or our spouse you know it's his creation it's like he's not jealous well it's funny because in the sense of sinful jealousy oh yeah yeah you know God why God wants us to love everyone infinitely so why wouldn't you try to love his mother infinitely I mean surely he he thinks very highly of her you know I think the Protestant would say it's not that I'm not willing to love her it's that I don't believe the things Catholics and Orthodox say of her and it's like all right well fair enough and you know um that's why that's why I would kind of I'm trying to think of an analogy right like I'm trying to think of maybe a Muslim a Muslim accepts Christ as a prophet right and you want this Muslim to come to believe that he's more than a prophet that he's the second person of the Blessed Trinity it may not be helpful for that I'm not meaning to compare Protestants to Muslims but there's an analogy here it might not be helpful for that Muslim to read you know the the agathis to Christ or some beautiful poem to Jesus right now because it might it might be far too confusing for him so you want him just to come to accept who Christ is then once he's accepted who Christ is then the rest begins to to follow and I think something similar with the Blessed Virgin Mary for the Protestant to realize that she's the mother of God that God has no absolute need of her but chose her chose to have need of her as it were and that if it weren't for Mary you wouldn't have Jesus um and and if you can just kind of get on board with like the the bare minimum um and then just to be to be patient and to and to not impose upon yourself the many devotions that exist within Orthodoxy or Catholicism regarding the Blessed Virgin Mary you don't have to do that um and then I think it it kind of follows yeah I would say yeah I uh I think one of the things Protestant identity is so often negative and so growing up I had a uh I'm not this is that what you mean I'm not that we don't do Mary because the Catholics do it and of course there are they have they have a theology yeah but they also have this Instinct and I think that many times the instinct is harder to overcome it's like you know the Catholics do the merry thing and I for me I think that that you know it's true that Protestants will say you know I love Mary I'm just not willing to pray for her um I I know from experience as as a Protestant talking to Protestants and ex-protestants that um that's not true of everyone there are a lot of people that don't want to love Mary that will that will actively sort of minimize her role and yeah like take an even lesser opinion of her than in the gospel because they don't want to be Catholic and I think that that's uh I think oftentimes that instinct is the hardest thing to overcome so I would I would say to Protestants if you can just recognize that and try to take that out of the equation you know let's let's forget Catholic versus Protestant just go to the gospels and go to the early church and see what they say about me about Mary and then go from there you know don't prep yourself for a great marrying conversion or anything like that but um you you will certainly take a higher view of Mary afterwards yeah yeah um we have some questions from our local supporters so let's uh I saved one from the chat but it's heavy a lot of them are very heavy all right well we'll see how we do ask anonymously yes yes sometimes John says ask darn it I'm someone with deep ties to the North Shore of Massachusetts from time to time while hiking I'll encounter people in the local Woods who are toying with Ouija boards Etc and regularly see the Beverly Beverly City Department yep of recreation advertising monthly witchcraft ceremonies led by high priestesses on the beach generally what should one make of the theistic Satanist Community around here is it growing are most people participating in these activity ah most people are participating in these activities non-theistic yeah I uh there's a rail trail near our house and I took my daughter for a walk um down the rail trail and um we made it probably about 10 15 minutes I said B we have to go back I I I I I went home in hell my my wife said um that was a quick walk I said something's something's wrong in those woods and then I went back a couple days later by myself to go for a walk and there were pentagrams carved in all the trees um no one I I don't know percentage-wise how many of these people are atheists or think that they're atheists there there's a lot so much so much more which real witchcraft real Satanism out there than anyone realizes so much more when you're involved in the community if you meet people everywhere um yes it's it's real it's growing um you know this sounds like satanic Panic stuff but it's happening it's happening in the woods near your house you know it's it's I'm sorry but it's it's these are the times that we live in um and part of the reason I wanted to stress that I had such a great childhood is not just because I did not just to take the blame off my parents but to say can happen to anyone anywhere even people with the best of intentions you can be coming into it seeking goodness and beauty and truth and get sucked into the darkness and then fall in love with the darkness seeking the light and then falling in love with the darkness um so yeah does that answer the question I'm of the opinion that if you expose people to the reality of the Demonic in the proper context say from a Christian Author like Father Gabrielle or or even a couple of the episodes I've done like I've had a couple of I've had two exorcists on my show I throw this out here because if you're watching right now and you think okay like how do I you know my child's old enough to hear some of this stuff maybe they don't listen to this episode but maybe they want to listen to something like that to show them that because I think it shows the power of God that's what those episodes do with the access it shows the power of God it shows that the demons are nothing to fear but it also shows their reality and why they are something to fear if you give yourself over to them you know um so in a way I hope that those episodes I've done with Exorcist can be something of a you know what do you say an antidote or that might be the wrong word um okay I'm not going to read any of these people's names just in case they want them to be anonymous but this person says I have a co-worker that has a Ouija board themed backpack um should I take all of her belongings out and burn it probably not I would think that there's a multi I'd like please disagree with me okay but my initial thought is uh all right it's a co-worker so this probably wouldn't go well for your job if you need it uh two you are committing theft and then damaging someone's property so you would have to suffer the consequences of that those would be things you would have to consider before doing something like this finally I would imagine it would only Harden their resolve that's the big one yeah yeah I think she would love to feel persecuted because this is the thing they you want this is I mean from the very beginning I wanted so badly to be the Pagan in the woods you know hiding from the and they they they all talk about this they all talk about how how hard it is to be a wicked how hard it is to be a Satanist because of the Christian patriarchy and stuff and it's not true it's not true what's that if only it works I know yeah and um there was uh in my first book the reaction in mind I have a chapter on the inquisitions and why Thomas Moore defended the burning of Heretics um we don't have to go too deep into that but um the church the the church's position is that no and historically that um you know violence to to fighting evil with violence is uh is not always a bad thing I mean Saint Bernard says that you know when the when the Christian night falls in battle um he dies for he dies for God you know this is historic church teaching um but it's always it's always instant but he also says you know it has to be a question of is it going to help you can't just lash out at evil um sometimes maybe even most of the time the correct answer is to turn the other cheek to those of you who are spiritual correct those who have fallen in the spirit of gentleness you do so much more good by blessed with holy water slip them right always paddle into a bag pray for her little green scapular yeah scapula yeah uh this person again I'm not going to read any names just in case powerful interview he says so far and what a great testimony thanks for this praise be to our Lord Jesus Christ for the power of his love and grace yes uh this woman asks can you ask Michael if he's comfortable answering of course if black masses are in Latin if they are would that be a sign that the traditional Latin mass is pro the proper form I don't know if we want to take our cue from Satanist but just this clarification I don't hold that opinion I believe the nervous order is just as well as Latin the extraordinary form or however you want to phrase it uh Michael you will be included in our daily Rosary intentions God bless thank you very much gosh I thought about that perk all the people that please pray for me yeah everyone pray yeah um I don't know that I thank God I didn't get that far um this man says can you ask Michael if he has anything to say about Saint Michael and the good Angel this side of his conversion I'd imagine that their characters and his experience of them are a stark contrast to that of the Satan and demons yes yeah it's uh it's it's interesting he I I feel like I have a special relationship with him because well I mean in one sense we all do because he's kind of the unit almost this is theologically wrong but like the universal Guardian Angel you know what I mean he's uh he's the prince of the Angels um but I have but you do you feel like you go into battle with my you do go into battle with Michael in a way that you don't go into battle with any other um and I have a I was talking to a friend of mine who's oh gosh this is a he was a Catholic seminarian um dabbled in paganism um and that was Jewish he's ethnically Jewish he reverted to duties or whatever but he said he he said I experience demonic oppression because of what I did when I was a pagan he said and I prayed the Saint Michael prayer he said it doesn't have Jesus in it he said I consider myself a Pious Jew he says but I know it works he says I know it works and I still I it worked when I was a Catholic and it still works as a Jew so Michael Michael's Michael Yes is fighting for us hmm Sarah says disclaimer for melancholics she said you may cry throughout the interview this is her thank you for sharing your beautiful story today on she says thank you yes yeah oh the person who asked about the Ouija board I think is now saying this was more of a joke okay text is tone deaf it's a valid question it's a valid question again I'm not against the the burning of evil materials just only if it's going to do more more good than harm do you find that you have a sensitivity to when evil is glorified in art and movies yes in a way that others may not yes because I find like because of my history of pornography I can't watch any movies that have any kind of sex stuff in it don't have anything to do with it first thing I do is I look up is there anything like that and I can't do it sometimes we'll be watching a movie and something quite brief will happen or it's not even it's not even I'm not even talking about things that Tempt Me by viewing them I'm talking about making light of what is Holy in marriage and and bringing it down to the level of the beasts even in language in a way that isn't lust inducing say sure I find myself hurt like hurt in a way that feels almost inordinate and so I wondered if you would have is it something similar when you've been down this road yeah oh yeah yeah I'm uh in well I mean in both you know it's um you think about how I I still like I said I still feel the draw in some ways I st it's it's kind of a laden I mean probably what it's the opposite of what you're talking about like with for me it uh it's titillating you know what I mean it's still still attractive in a certain way and um and I find that objectively disgusting and but it yeah it breaks my heart to think about how many people are doing what I did which is just peeking at this darkness and getting and getting slowly drawn in um so on both levels yes it's hard to it's hard to see how a country which Slaughters its unborn babies doesn't gradually become a satanic nation of course it not only Slaughters their babies but then celebrates it you know publicly and as a nation the satanic temple is suing one state government in the south um that has oh now has an abortion ban saying that abortion is the satanic Sacrament and azer that's right under religious freedom laws they should be allowed to have abortions yeah this is this is child sacrifice it is and they're open about it now yeah this is this is Beyond post-christianity this is we are this is satanic yeah yeah how can we help you know it's so funny usually if I'm having an interview with somebody who left protestantism say and you know I love my brothers and sisters as you said I really do and so I'll say how can we help our person friends and you know so but I would think that many people don't have and probably shouldn't have almost certainly shouldn't have close acquaintances with satanists so how I imagine the answer is be a saint but yeah other than that how do how do people help their friends and family members maybe especially who are dabbling in witchcraft or who are full-on satanists how could people have helped you at the time I'm afraid to answer that question because I think that would be better for a priest okay um I don't want to give anyone advice on how to deal with the circumstance like that well let me ask a personal question how do you think you could have been helped when you were a 15 year old or whatever full on into Satanism if I I wish that um I had this whole this god-sized hole in my heart you know whatever I had this I had this longing for for true and good and beautiful things and it's no guarantee but if um if I had if my first exposure to the Catholic mass had been Saint Adelaide's in Peabody or the fraternity Parish New Hampshire instead of the novus ordo that might have made all the difference I think that um I think yeah beauty Beauty and if we if we our culture loves it fetishizes evil and ugliness and architecture and an art and irreverence and I think the most powerful witness against that is to be is to be kind and uh and to to create beautiful things I mean how many people have been converted by good literature how many people have started down that path through things like Tolkien you know um these are the I mean these are the weapons of the Angels um and I wish that uh I wish I wish I'd known Christ better I think that so many people this is what this is what struck me about C.S Lewis is that he was so his Christianity was compelling because it was authentic it wasn't embarrassed by itself it wasn't ashamed of itself and I was reading this and I was like oh this is this is the Christianity the satanists warned me about you know what I mean that's what we need we don't need to to try to accommodate the culture of death that's that's Doom that's the end I think the Moses to the starkest possible contrast with evil sainthood Holiness Beauty that's what I that's what would have if someone had said to me look this thing that you do with the the statue the little statues the little metal chalice a million times better over here that that could have they could have made all the difference um this person from locals asks how do theistic satanists go around the concept that Satan was created by God do they not think the creator has more power than the angel do they know it's an unfair battle they are getting into that's a very interesting question the uh the thing so this is why Faust I think is such an important uh an important work because Satan and the demons rebelled knowing that they're going to lose but they have so much pride and so much hatred for God that they do it anyway and Faust uh is the same you know he's he's the same kind of the same thing in human form he knows he's he's letting himself be dragged into hell and there's there comes a point where you're so enslaved to the darkness that you don't care you don't care that you're going to lose your pride and your ambition and you it's it's uh you hate you hate God and everything that God stands for so much that um you know Stephen Fry said something about how you know if uh if if if God is the kind of person that condemns homosexuals then he's a cruel sob and I'd rather go to hell or something like that and you hear people like that say that Christopher Hitchin said something similar yeah yeah and um it's like yeah okay well that's that's an option for you yeah yeah and um that's the I struggle you know it's it's hard to imagine how because we we believe that you only go to Hell by choice God gives you every Grace every opportunity but he the only thing that he can't he can't do is he can't force you to love him and if you choose to hate him it's like as C.S Lewis says God can't give you peace outside of himself it's not there and if you hate God if you truly hate God they can't do anything about that he gave us that free will yeah this this reminds me of arguments in the past more particularly a bad arguments I've had with my wife where I don't want to say sorry yeah I know I'm wrong yes but I I cannot and all of us have had this experience I would imagine a one degree or another I I just cannot bring myself how many times you hear people that I cannot bring myself to there's a there's a power in destroying yourself yes it's demonic that is demonic and I I we were talking about this in the walk over um I I've never struggled with the problem of evil just because it is to me it has been in my life the most powerful evidence of the supernatural and having been so deep into it little things like you know I love the Jesus prayer I've loved the Jesus prayer since I was in Anglican um it's my favorite thing to do I physically I find it so soothing um intellectually I find it so satisfying and then obviously spiritually I I I get I get something out of it every single time I say it it's it's like a sword that won't blunt yeah and uh but I don't say it as much as I should and I and whenever I say whatever I say to myself you know I'll say that I should say I should say a rope right and um and then I and I then but there's a part of me that doesn't want to and it's like what could that possibly be there's everything to recommend it I don't like doing anything more than that why wouldn't I do it why do I say no more times than I say yes that's evil that doesn't make sense there's no reason why that should exist especially if you don't have pressing needs or Duty isn't requiring you to do something else yeah I'm a journalist I never do anything um this person asks with regard to your response about walking in the woods with your family when you talk about the pentagram quick question I know what a pentagram looks like where does it come from do you know Thursday I'd never thought about that if you look that up for us thank you what do satanists believe they are doing to the geographic locations where rituals take place if anything should we be asking priests to come and bless these locations if we come across ritual ritual locations so what do they think they're doing I would I mean I I guess I should yeah oh they're they're um they're doing what you do when you when you pray for someone or when you pray for your you know in The Divine Liturgy we pray for our city right they're doing the same thing in River I mean at least the satanists are doing the same thing in Reverse they're wishing they're wishing evil on you they're invoking evil they're invoking Darkness they're trying to bring the darkness into our into our lives um there was a I remember there was a uh I forget I I think it was a priest I met in person but it might have been a video I watched it was he was talking to someone about on a plane about how he you know the the Catholics um passed on Friday and whatnot and the woman said that's very interesting she says I'm a Satanist and I fast on Sunday because I want to try to cancel out what you guys are doing I'm you know this is this is the day of great morning for us you fast on Friday because that's when Christ died we fast on Sunday because that's when he rose God have mercy yeah why could doozy uh [Music] I got something I think this is really hard to tell it's like one of those weird things that's like in every single culture for all of history like they've got oh I see you know like it's literally in Sumerian poetry from like 3500 BC so if what I'm seeing is correct it originates as a sign in occultism because it was used in Faust okay yeah yeah because it was used in Faust but uh the line is Mephistopheles says I must confess I'm prevented through though by a little thing that hinders me the druid's foot on your door sill Faust the pentagram gives you pain then tell me you son of hell if that's the case how did you gain entry are spirits like you cheated Mistoffelees look carefully it's not completed one angle if you inspect it closely has as you see been left a little open so okay it might be seeing this powerful from fouls it's hard to tell because it's everywhere so yeah yeah um how do you feel because you just said a moment ago that evil has never because it's been so prevalent in your life it hasn't been a compelling argument against God's existence how do you feel we talked about this before but I want you to talk about it now how do you feel about ghost stories and horror as a as a genre do you because you also said there's a sensitivity to that so I would imagine you would have a oh yeah that's interesting well I guess I've what I've seen has so much worse than like reading a story that it doesn't bother me on a visceral level yeah and um if there was a story so one story that does that does bother me is because it's about a diabolist it's an Mr James story and the the characters the main characters based on Aleister Crowley and I don't read that one um for the most part I mean ghost stories as such are like Cthulhu mythology yeah doesn't really have much in common I mean it's emo but um but I think that you know there are there are people who say that you know this you shouldn't touch this because it's evil um I don't know anything but in my uh in my humble opinion I mean I wouldn't I would rather people get a taste of how horrible that is uh through literature and then never have to actually encounter it I I think that ghost stories or horror stories and obviously there's a distinction that needs to be made between something that's glorifying evil or pressing your face into something disgusting for the sake of it that sort of thing and other works like I think hanseling riddle is one of the most terrifying stories ever written I'm not joking I think Dracula is you know Bram Stoker I think uh but I think these are beautiful books and I think they can also kind of put us in touch with the reality of the fact that the world is strange than we had First supposed it almost does battle against the secular interpretation of the world that we've been given in a way or it can absolutely you agree or not I do I do yeah you know it's interesting there's a there's a story a novella called the Greek god pan by Arthur Macon and um it's uh in many ways very revolting it's considered the first you know horror this is the first Horror Story and um you might care I don't know if I could might care to read I don't know if I could recommend it but there is a um there is a satanic aspect and I didn't know that I thought it was about the God Pan um you can imagine who Pan actually is but the uh one of the things that I was struck by I read about it afterwards and it was castigated um by by critics for being so explicit and so grotesque and so and um and I I was reading then I was like I didn't think it was that bad yeah and um that was something I wrote up sub stack post about this but I was I realized how desensitized we've been like I was telling Thursday I was uh one thing I might criticize my parents for they gave me a TV when I was a kid so I remember when I was quite little um staying up all night watching Silent Hill and that shattered me that haunts that will haunt me forever and um those things really desensitize you to evil it takes a lot to shock people now yeah and that's not good yeah I remember what hearing a Braveheart you ever watched that movie yeah it was a big deal when did it come out I was probably about 11 or 12. but there's that scene of the decapitated head in the basket yeah and now that's like every single episode of every single show on Hulu okay not really but yeah yeah no that's a good point all right well as we wrap up I want you to tell people where they can go to find more about you I just want to hold this up for the camera here Thursday this is called the reactionary mind why conservative Isn't Enough by Our Guest Michael Warren Davis um Rod Draya cool endorsed it um where else I love that guy yeah he seems like a good chap I was just in um where was I stanbul oh he's in Romania Hungary yeah I was I was supposed to go to Hungary but we missed our flight and the Hope was to meet up with him you should I will I'll go back we'll have to go back to Ukraine again so next time he's done more for me than I could ever say wonderful yeah and then we write these down to put them in the episode so like your sub stack page was that yeah it's um commonman.substack.com I think um and you can also pre-order my new book yes which I'll promise to promote big time when it comes out oh thank you yeah I appreciate that I have to make my plug for my publisher but um it's uh it's called after Christendom um and it's uh through Sophie and Sue press and the publisher of great authors like Father Boniface Hicks and mother Ileana and also me um not so great but that's uh yeah I um it's prepared for a pre-order now awesome well thank you for agreeing to come on the show for driving all the way here and God bless your wife and your family and oh it's an honor thank you Matt thank you so much long time fan and I I really can't believe that I'm I'm here yeah I do a lot of good I hope so amen thanks thank you

Channel: Pints With Aquinas

Views: 582,507

Keywords: aquinas, catholicism, catholic, pints with aquinas, matt fradd, theology, debate, religion, st. thomas aquinas, thomas aquinas, philosophy

Id: m5dY5TXiLK0

Length: 135min 4sec (8104 seconds)

Published: Wed Sep 06 2023