Heated Debate on Pornography w/ Dennis Prager @PragerU​

let's talk about the pornography thing right well that was how did that go when you discussed it with Father Dave I I well you'll have to ask the people there I mean I can only judge it from my perspective I thought it went terrific when I when I saw that clip of you on Exodus I got the sense that you're a bit sidelined or totally I I know somebody who has a talk show I wish that I could go back and rephrase well that's correct I wrote a letter I hope you saw it and um uh it was the last thing I imagined being asked at an exodus course with Jordan Peterson and a bunch of Scholars whom I adored by the way uh nevertheless I I should have I wish I had phrased it better it it is what it is and I phrased it better tonight without being untrue to myself right and uh what I did not see a big part of the problem should I review this for your Watchers listeners review review what happened so that they'll understand what we're talking about so I uh the daily wire asked me to join Jordan Peterson or Jordan Peterson asked me to Jordan or both of them ask uh because he's doing uh the book of did the book of Exodus they were I believe 16 sessions of 90 minutes each it's a lot a lot of time with no commercials how how many days did you film this in oh eight eight eight days yes eight days each time in in Miami and uh it was wonderful I loved it so what arose at one time and I I had even forgotten about this it was it was five minutes out of let's see what is uh 16 times an hour and a half 24 hours so it's five minutes out of 24 hours and what happened was I don't even remember how the issue arose but I I mentioned that there that there is a Jewish Christian difference with regard to Jesus's statement that a man who lost after another woman has committed adultery with his heart that a a that phrase does not appear obviously in the Hebrew Bible but B that the general Jewish View and I say General because I can't speak for for all Jews even though I try to be normative uh is that you can only commit adultery with and I said this in the video and I and I purposely said I'm not trying at all to be cute right in any way you can only commit adultery with one organ and it is not the heart Judaism is very uh behavior-based Christianity uh is more not it's not that it's not Behavior based but it is equally if not more a thought inner self from heart based so for example there's a phrase in Hebrew that I learned very early in my Yeshiva education I'll say it in Hebrew so that people will know I didn't make it up it's not the thought that counts that no not that counts that is the essence but the deed right Judaism is very behaviorist and I am very behaviorist so for example and I mentioned this to the to at Franciscan uh I said on the radio very often I don't care if you like Jews I don't care if you dislike Jews I prefer you like Jews but there are a lot of Jews I don't like I mean it's just a little silly to say I like a whole group I don't there's no whole group I like there's no whole group I dislike but in any event I don't care if you dislike Jews I care how you treat Jews and and that that is uh uh it goes to the to the essence of what my belief is I want to know how you act uh the the left does this all the time oh you treat gays beautifully uh like in my case I am I am my wife and I are God Parents to a gay couple's children but the fact that I'm against a same-sex marriage that makes me a hater so how I treat jks is irrelevant it's it's what I think uh this bothers me that your thoughts can be regarded as a demerit but see but your thoughts wouldn't be uncharitable towards people with same-sex attraction you would just think that the behavior is presumably sinful uh the so they would be wrong in there no thinking of you as a home what bothers me the most is that we redefine marriage okay well my Leviticus commentary comes out that'll be the fifth of my five volume commentary on the Torah uh I have already written 22 000 words on one verse which of course I've never done for any other verse about a man should not lie uh with a man as with a woman and and so without even getting into that I just the point I wanted to make was for the left what I think renders me awful not what I do so my my treatment of gays is is excellent but the fact that I don't think marriage should be redefined yeah is enough to make me a hater bigot homophobe and all the other terms that they use anyway back to us let me interject here um so Aristotle in the nicomique in ethics right has these four levels of the vicious to to the virtuous man The Vicious man is the one who wants to do evil and does it and he has the incontinent man the continent man but he says the virtuous man is the one who wants to do the good and does it and so to me I like I have children if one of them held anti-semitic views but treated you kindly I would say well that's better than holding anti-semitic views and being bad toward you but I I wouldn't I would I would think that's not where I would settle that's fine that's fine I I I I I I I respect that and and I also want to say that I think I agree with you that um the obviously adultery and lust are different things if they weren't different things we wouldn't have two separate words for them but yeah also which comes somewhat of a revelation to my Christian friends is there's no uh there is no sin of this there are 613 laws in the Torah none of them say Do not lust you can't covet covet is a very different concept of than lust covet means you want to take what belongs to another and it is a very simple proof that it doesn't mean lust covet you don't lust after a house or a donkey right one presumes and yet you're not allowed to covet those either but do you make a distinction between sexual desire and lust do you see a distance okay so therefore if you don't see a distinction between those two things it I can see why you would think it insane to tell somebody I don't know how you sexually desire your wife and have no lust for her oh I do okay so I would think that's interesting I would think that a lot so you think so lost okay yeah you're right this is interesting I've never confronted it quite this way reduces the subject to an object okay which subordinates the Dignity of the person to the good of a selfish pleasure it's also a distorted sexual act uh so it's an act which is contrary to human nature or to the end of uh so if sexual desire and lust are different can you sexually desire a woman you're not married to and not lust for her yes oh well I would think so okay I haven't heard that from from a Christian because I suppose there were like three stages if I would think of it like if I bought an airplane and I sit next to a beautiful woman and I'm attracted to her sexually how could I how could I not be okay that's beyond my control now what do I do with that uh do I sit here and fantasize about what I could do with her sexually like at that point the will is engaged and that is something within my control right so I think it is important to make that distinction and I think that might be part of what drives some Christians neurotic if they think well I'm I'm sexual desire is a sin can't sexually desire anybody who isn't my well I think not only Christians but I think I think in some cases with Jews too uh that it does drive people to be neurotic uh it's like if I said you don't think of a pink elephant well better don't you're in a restaurant don't think of food because that's a real life very bad stop it yeah yeah you'd go crazy that's right and by the way the more you don't think about it the more you think about it so there's that there's that element too agreed uh so uh I I do I differ with you and I did with the father and by the way I mentioned this is very important to note what a credit it is to Franciscan University a having me a as a religious Jew obviously doesn't believe in Christ I'm not a Christian and B uh that they discussed thee openly with me uh at the University uh what they heard me say on daily wire oh but he he did raise this issue about sexual objectification and that reduces the human being uh as as one created God's image Etc just what you said now and my my I have a different view of that sure uh I think uh this I suspect you may have not heard this before in one of your uh podcasts here we go many of your guests I think that in the bedroom if a a loving husband and who is a loving husband and I have a word to say about what a loving husband is a loving husband who sees his wife in the bedroom as a sexual object uh I I will be totally open with you I have said on the radio if after X number of years married your husband still sees you as a sex object you are both very lucky I would say it depends what you mean by sex object if what you mean is your husband continues to find you sexually desirable I would agree with you if what you mean is the man essentially treats his wife as a warm body to masturbate in not taking into account her feelings her desires oh of course right but that's not this that's not objectification has a as a dirty name he said he doesn't the the father said one shouldn't even objectivize baseball players and it was an excellent analogy I had thought of that myself but I do objectivize the baseball no I'm not sure if I agree with him it doesn't mean that you would it automatically mistreat the baseball player that's right but I'm in a different relationship with the baseball player than I am correct but there is a place in the totality of a relationship so here is my motto because I talk about men and women every week for an hour on my radio show and I have for about 20 years and that is you make love outside the bedroom and you have sex and inside the bedroom I think it's a romanticization of the sex act to say that there it's always making love it's okay to make lust it's okay to have some objectification that doesn't mean you're mistreating her yeah I I think I'd want to know what you mean by objectification you're using language to convey something that I might agree with yes you might I think you really might I agree with you it certainly doesn't mean mistreat there's it's not even implied but any more than with the baseball player and that and you'll say well I have a different relationship with the baseball player but you're right sex is its own its own world I don't like to romanticize sex sex is sex is is many many things sometimes it's Love sometimes it's just pure sex when it's pure sex and not just love there is an element of objectification uh I'm crazy about her legs is that a statement of love what do you mean you don't love legs what do you mean by love right so I would say Aristotle and Aquinas would say that to love is to will the good of the other for their sake so I don't will my wives good for my sake it's not like I say honey I really need you to go to CrossFit so I can lust after you but if I want her to get healthy for her sake then this is love if she says she says to you honey there's a certain thing that you could do for me sexually that will really turn me on and it may not really turn you on are you being objectivized or are you doing it because you love her and because she wants first of all she's asked a question in which I presumably am free to decline so she free to decline that's coercion and there's no room for it so there is a objectification which I'm free to decline right so honey would you put on this sexy outfit for me are you okay with that me yeah buddy hell that's a question I didn't expect you to ask well you opened it up I would not be okay with that that's interesting I don't think even in the bedroom it's not that I'd be morally opposed to it it's just I'd feel uncomfortable with it well my view is that the more comfort that the couple has the better the relationship I think that's right so long as comfort doesn't lead to what I would consider to be sexually perverse acts well why is it sexually perverse to to wear a sexy outfit it's not and that's why I said I'm not morally opposed to it but okay so your discomfort is personal that's fair that's not an area I need to get into one thing I would love you to get into because you did say this in the email is you think that the widespread proliferation teenagers help people hear this side yes well I I given I gave an example tonight so I'm very friendly with a young woman she's 23. very very close to her uh people could guess who it is because the I do a podcast with her okay so she is so open God bless her I don't think she would object to my to my telling the story in fact maybe it was even discussed on one of our podcasts we're very very open so she uh was on a date and they were both a try it was not the first date and they kissed that's all they did they kissed and in the midst of the kiss he he grabbed her neck oh like this and even me Mr open was taken aback and and so was she to her credit she when she took his hand away she said either then or or later that evening or later another time why did you do that and he to his credit was open enough to say I thought you would like it that's what I see on the internet that's a bad thing that that's that's the number of young men who learn about women through porn and not real life is a very scary thing that is developed so I am I am as worried as you are about the pornification of society when I answered the question that Jordan Peterson asked which came out of nowhere I'm not blaming him in the lease it was a perfectly legit question but it came out of nowhere I was thinking still in the way I have always defined it as Playboy magazine that to me that was porn uh the stuff that is out there now is not what I think of when I'm asked the question and and so uh I did say this to the father tonight and I'm sure it shocked everybody there did you ask him you'll get it you'll get a charge out of this uh intellectually it'll blow your mind I think so my dad was an orthodox Jew modern Orthodox admittedly but Orthodox did never drove on the Sabbath never ate a non-kosher food warayamuka in the house sent the kids to Yeshiva I mean he's the real deal uh he was a president of of the Kingsway Jewish Center still exists an orthodox synagogue in Brooklyn New York and he subscribed to Playboy which shocks uh Jews as well as non-jews to be honest good okay yeah good the bad that it does yes okay however so I I I was raised in a very sexually open home that was also deeply religious and I never found them conflicting uh as he didn't and so he was an outlier I acknowledge and I am an outlier I acknowledge however I want people to understand my parents were together 72 years and they loved each other crazy when she died at 89 he died at 96. uh he he he basically his life ended his screensaver was I love you Hindi that was his nickname for her her name was Hilda and she knew he got Playboy this did not did not trouble my mother oh that's Mac okay I'm married to a live wire who was faithful and who loved me and she was crazy about him and that and that and that was it what would be better for your father to love your mother and get Playboy or for your father to say even though I'm tempted to look at pornography my wife's body is enough for me and I'm not going to look at that even though I'm tempted to that's a very interesting question I don't have an answer which will uh I I should give you the answer you want I think you should too yes that's a good point you do uh I don't know what that means enough uh as I said which bothers is funny there were two groups that it bothers the very religious and the radical feminist when I say that men are variety built in God made male sexual nature as variety oriented as one uh I don't know who put it this way but one would put it a woman loves a man and Men love women now I don't want men to go around loving women I'm totally opposed to that I am I I am and insist on my being it's not it's not even debatable that I am faithful to my wife it's a given my wife knows that other women are a turn on she knows it it does not bother her she she is she to to my luck I am married to a woman who does not find male sexual nature frightening most women do and by the way I understand that but again I think we have to make the distinction between sexual arousal and sitting and fantasizing or watching actually they looked at it together and and if you well that's sad too I think I don't why is it sad because I think pornography is a well version of the sexual act yeah well okay which is holy what if they lose okay let me finish which is God's first commandment to humanity be fruitful and multiply it is the most intimate thing two human beings can do together not watch the office no go not go for a walk on the beach it's the fundamental act that brings about the family which brings about Society I'm of the opinion if you pervert that fundamentally I don't know why why is it perverted why is it because it usurps The Natural end of sexuality if I eat food and then force myself to throw up I'm usurping but I don't think that that it's a fair analogy let's say that it looks very fair let's say they looked at at bathing suit ads not not at Playboy just they looked at that other beautiful women together that that and it was okay with my mother obviously the assumption is it was okay with my mother if it wasn't then it's not a good thing clearly uh I am more worried about men having to hide their nature see when you say God has built into their nature desire for variety it sounds like you're saying that therefore it would be unnatural to not look at pornography well forget the word pornography because it's so loaded I'm anti-pornography but if pornography means anything that is arousing then it could be a bride right well exactly I think I could Define pornography like this I could say material which depicts erotic Behavior no not Behavior there's no behavior in Playboy okay well it's not Behavior I think that's an important distinction I think what when you say Behavior I think you're meaning video or action that's why that's why no I don't I'm I am not advocative of watching sexual behavior but I want to know what you mean by the word Behavior because if I'm going to say it's sexual sexual activity between two people okay so even a photograph in Playboy of two people engaging in it but there weren't such opposed to that but you're okay with a man looking at one naked woman let's say yes or they weren't even naked then they they were covered in their privates right but but you're opposed to them looking at anything that might be arousing you're what if a woman is wearing a regular uh wonderful a man is turned on which every man is by an attractive woman in in a nice dress that's a turn on so no no please answer I will so is that bad I'm gonna end with his wife I'm going to answer but let me unfold this a little bit I think pornography it can sometimes be a difficult thing to Define I would say and let me see if I can redefine it for you material that depicts something that's intended to sexually arouse or replace replace a prostitute I mean the word pornography comes from two Greek words porn a graph pain which means the writing or the drawing of the prostitutes it's meant to serve an erotic function but what if the eroticism is then is then so I'm okay with the wife I'm okay looking at breasts and I'm okay looking at bums and I if you go to the Sistine Chapel you'll see that Catholics are perfectly comfortable with nudity but I think that nudity can be presented in a way that upholds and expresses the Dignity of the person so I could say okay I could look at that and Marvel at God's creation and the beauty of woman and the beauty of man but I think I could also look at a lingerie catalog and in my mind treat this person as a mere object so I would say uh that in one aspect I'm okay looking at breasts let's say Sistine Chapel but in another sense if I'm looking at a lingerie catalog with the intention of lusting that they wouldn't be okay what if I'm looking at the lingerie or catalog with the intention of getting my wife lingerie I think the intention does matter yeah okay all right yeah we're not that far I'm not advocating this I know you know and I really want that to get yeah I really want that yes it's very important but I I'm so worried remember I come from the woman calling my show I saw I saw pictures on my husband's computer I'm devastated so what am I supposed to say you know what you're right to be devastated your husband is a real sinner he treats you as an object what would you like me to say to her here's what I'd like you to say I I think you could I don't think you have to say I think I would I think I would begin by validating her pain I wouldn't dismiss it by and I'm not saying you did this because I haven't heard this sort of phone call but I wouldn't dismiss it by saying you're wrong to be hurt I would say there are many things out there that your husband I'm sure loves you very much and that's my first question to her and you're right this is does he love you and is he loving and do you have a good love life and I yeah if the answers are all yes go on so if the answers are all yes I would say Well since he loves you and since this bothers you there are some excellent resources that I'd love to tell you about that could help him be free of pornography because surely you would say if a man is looking at pornography and his wife's heartbroken you're not saying well she's wrong to be and he doesn't need to change if she's heartbroken wouldn't you want to say to the man here are some ways that you could quit yes I would want to say to both of them it I understand why you're heartbroken because you think that he loves her more than you or as much as you and I want you to know that's not the case at all I don't know if that's the only reason she'd be heartbroken I don't think it's that she loves I I think that pornography trains Us in selfishness all right yes so it also devices so what if he says to her look you saw lingerie ads and I'm I'm you know I'm dying to buy you some really uh cute uh lingerie would you be okay with that I would say that we're verging on what's sometimes called the fallacy of the beard you ever heard of this just because you don't know when something begins it doesn't mean you can't say what a thing is this isn't a beard but in a three months if I didn't shave it would be and just because you don't know when it started doesn't mean you can't say what a b it is and I would say that there are blurry lines I would agree with you like a Victoria Secret Fashion Show is that pornography I'd say probably what about uh but is it is it less bad than other forms of pornography yes not all pornography is equal some photography that far apart ah I my biggest one of my biggest teachings is that there are levels of sin and there are levels of good and that we should not listen uh I don't think this this is not a Catholic thing but many Protestants who listen to my show take issue with me when I say that God does not regard stealing a stapler from the office as he does child molestation right and they call me up and say Dennis love you but I got to tell you a sin is a sin yeah no we would we would part ways without I know you would yes Catholics and Jews believe in gradations of sin correct okay so there are gradations in that Arena as well yes but I would say that just because something is less bad than something else that doesn't make it good so if you're saying I'm not arguing it's good so if you say arguing it's not as bad right as people often make it out to be I am not arguing that it's good uh What in an ideal marriage would my father not have subscribed to Playboy I'll be prepared to say yes however good job yes yeah but it doesn't gain you as much as you think because I saw their relationship for seven I didn't see it for 72 years obviously but I saw it bulk of their life and I'm not making the respect with which he which he treated her I'm sure he did I'm not making the claim that you have pure pristine holy marriage and Haven of Filth I'm not saying right okay so fine so there are degrees but if you're saying to the woman yeah better for him to look at porn than to commit adultery then what I would say there is it might be less bad all things being equal right but less bad doesn't make it good right and if adultery can be analogized to shooting your marriage in the head I would say pornography is the slow poisoning of it and that there's a great deal of research that would go to back that up yes well in fact Dennis I'm going to get your book on Exodus I promise to look at it this is my book on pornography it's a non-religious response to pro-porn arguments I'll be very happy to read it and I'll sign it so it'll be worth more in the garage sale one day but there's no talk of sin there's no scripture verses it's all based on the 40 plus years of science that's coming out of Academia from Neuroscience okay so you see the reason I I actually never talk about pornography he asked me I never do I certainly don't Advocate it uh I don't even discuss it let alone Advocate it but it was asked and I and I and I I sort of took a vow many years ago I won't avoid questions yeah I wish I had I had known in advance it would be discussed I would have said how much I'm horrified by the pornification of society Etc uh but we uh I want I want to there's we're on so many different uh related but different tracks and I it's a very important subject uh the oh yes I was influenced by my parents marriage as we're all influenced by our parents marriage if you see your father be your mother you think that's normal and you end up beating your wife because my father I mean the thought that he would ever lift it he wouldn't hey it's so inconceivable to me all he did was was tell his sons how much he loved their mother I mean constantly uh so what I saw was a man got Playboy and loved his wife for 72 years she knew he got Playboy and loved her husband and knew he loved her for 72 years so that's what I saw and I I'm not going to sit here as their child and say this was really awful when when I I can't say because I'd be I would be lying but if you ask me is there an ideal I I will argue okay there is an ideal but uh but The Human Condition is messy so back to our uh earlier question where we differ on can a loving husband in the in in in the bedroom ever uh see his wife as a sex object and I said that's good see that's there finally we have a real difference I actually think that is a positive I don't know if we do have a disagreement if by sex object you mean you find your wife sexually desirable I don't know what the difference is what's the difference I think this is what I would say right a subject like man is made and man makes his own ends right slavery is wrong because we take a man who makes his own ends and would like to fulfill them uh when I talk about objectification I guess I'm talking about a sort of evacuation of the subject of the person I'm not concerned about her I'm not concerned about him he'll draw you draw an inference that I'm not implying and that's why I say I don't know if we're disagreeing or we may not that would be great to resolve it though I'm totally happy with that if that happens uh how you treat her is not is that you will treat her badly the moment women don't say I'm crazy about my husband's legs okay but a man may not say it well that's true fair enough okay I I I I admit uh but every man thinks that way if there's a part of the of her body that is particularly a turn on to use the term to him that is objectification women don't do that women don't very I mean young women do oh he's got a great butt by objectification do you mean I find a part of my wife's body that I find attractive sexually yeah yeah all right well I I suppose that for me objectification means uh uh sort of subordinating the good of my wife to myself you have you have drawn a behavioral inference from a thought and I don't yeah but see I still am not convinced that this sharp distinction or the the distinction because I've heard Ben Shapiro say something similar and I so I don't know if this is as you say more a behaviorist kind of Jewish idea because I think he said something like I don't really care if you have racist thoughts I care about how you act that's right I said that to the group tonight I don't care if people dislike Jews I care how they treat us but if my son you're right I would tell the saint to my child if my child said I don't like this group but I think this is what our Lord Jesus Christ is doing in which he's saying your righteousness has to has to pass out of the Pharisees it's not enough that you uh don't murder you should not want to it's not enough that you don't commit adultery you should not say but yeah fuel the Flames I happen to think it's a good thing not to want to murder I I subscribe to that uh but there's a very interesting Hebrew phrase um translating from the Hebrew so it'll be a bit awkward in the place that a penitent stands the most righteous person doesn't stand and I extrapolate from that that if you have bad thoughts and don't act on them you're on a higher moral plane than the guy who never has a bad thought I don't get any credit for not molesting children I I'm as interested in children sexually as I am in bananas or or peach trees okay so I get no credit for not molesting a child but the sick dude who does want to and doesn't he gets a lot of credit So speaking of pedophilia uh suppose a man says I view animated child porn so there's no real victim in that sense right child pornography which we both agree is horrendous and by viewing animated child porn it prevents me from acting out sexually on a child now I I deny that I think that pornography inflames us to then want to act those fantasies out and I think there's good studies that back that up but surely you wouldn't say to the man who views animated child pornography that's not bad so long as you don't act it out wouldn't you want to help this poor sick dude yes I would but I'm thrilled that he's not acting it out I mean agreed okay of course well that's big yeah we're both thrilled that he might have a poor substitute but it is a substitute if that were the case no child is being used it's all animated yeah and uh and he uh would you would you use the word evil of animated child pornography no I would use evil only with behavior that's where we might differ forgetting the sex issue you can't be evil you didn't do evil if you thought evil made into animated pictures of pornography I'm not doing something evil that's correct yeah I think that's I think that's despicable yeah really yes of course who is being hurt you have to have a video I'll tell you there's at least two people being hurt there's the person who's poisoning himself by encouraging him out on children and there's also the animator okay wait a minute we both we both are aching for him not to have those fantasies I agree with you but you won't call it I won't call a fantasy evil I there's too much real evil on Earth for me to start being preoccupied with people's thinking it's not just thinking it's him masturbating to him okay okay so that the the real question about the whole pornography issue is not pornography it's masturbation there is a Catholic tradition and there's both I think both masturbation is evil but I think pornography okay so I don't think masturbation is evil okay that's and by the way I admit that within Orthodox Judaism there was uh when I was a counselor at Orthodox Jewish Camp the kids were told by some of their rabbis that masturbation is like murder okay I do believe that in Catholic theology there is uh there is no no there's no Catholic is saying that murder is equivalent to masturbation okay all right you might say that both are grave sins but you wouldn't say that masturbation is a grave of sin even within murder patricide we both believe murder is always wrong except obviously self-defense is killing the murderer so murder is always wrong child molestation is always wrong is masturbation always wrong what about a man whose wife and I I have this example now you may say well if you take an extreme example it's not fair but if you say always I have to take a real life example of a man I knew who uh adored his wife I knew them when they were both Welsh she got Alzheimer's at a very early age in her 50s and he he dressed her and bathed her and cleaned her up for a decade and if this man with a wife who no longer recognized him masturbated to get rid of his sexual tension and stayed to take care of his wife you you would not you would say that was evil I would because I think that evil is the way things shouldn't be and I think the sexual act exists for Union and to masturbate is to thwart the end of that natural act I also think what we haven't taken into account yet is an industry that brutalizes women that's often involved in trafficking well that's why I said I'm against all of that I I'm on your side on that yeah yes I was talking about pictures still pictures of models yes okay but I'm still saying that this brutalizes women I think it's like who what woman would you like him to look at like your wife your daughter my daughter you would you be comfortable with someone you know and love being looked at like that I would no but it's it you're you're using um you're you're you're you're you're you're bringing the emotional I would say you're doing that I think you're you're doing that when you use this story so I would not deny that this is a virtuous man in many respects laudable who I could learn a great deal but no no you use the word evil that's right okay you define evil in a way I don't the way things shouldn't be yes I would refer to Natural evil so if a man is born blind this is a natural evil if a stone is blind this is not natural evil but I would also refer to moral evil as this is the way things shouldn't be so yeah we disagree on that yes so uh um I'm I'm trying to think of okay is it it shouldn't be that kids spend as much time as they do on on social media do we both agree with that that they spend too much time yes would you call it evil if they did spend too much time probably yes okay but I wouldn't say it was evil so how so I've shared with you how I Define evil how do you define the deliberate infliction of hurt on another human being so I would say that pornography involves the deliberate infliction of hurt on another human being through the photographing of a person models again I'm not sure I I don't have a I I don't know capable of masturbating to lingerie models as they are to Awful stuff right so what I think the goal should be is to line up the goal of the artist or the photographer and the goal and the intention of the viewer with the Dignity of the human person because I can view something non-pornographic and say masturbate to it right the problem isn't with the thing I'm looking at the problems with me likewise likewise I could look through a pornographic magazine and feel nothing but pity for these women who don't know their dignity in that case objectively it's photography but subjectively it isn't for me right so I think you want both to line up with the Dignity of the human person wanting to line up with dignity is totally admirable calling the nun lining up is a lingerie model losing her dignity and you may say yes yeah I think I would say yes okay yeah but again I want to make a huge distinction between these gradations well and so do I something [Music] when people say pornography they're thinking of the most awful behaviors well let me ask you this then because it sounded like you were saying that if a man views pornography and thereby doesn't commit adultery it's okay no I didn't say okay I said it wasn't all horrible fair enough right thank you for the correction yeah uh but you've also said that you're very much opposed to uh violent pornography obviously if a man says I need to watch violent pornography so I don't commit adultery do you say well okay that's that's less bad too or do you condemn that with a greater severity well because it's the odds are that the people in it are being hurt what if they're willing to be hurt so I then then I I more or less subscribe to your uh to your vision of the issue but again I want to remind everybody watching or listening that my vision was of Playboy of the 1960s when I was a teenager which is which would right to be regarded today as as not even worthy of Netflix on Netflix but so uh but uh well I have to ask you and and and many others who feel as you do and I respect it uh is uh is everything well well I did ask you I mean once you say masturbation under all circumstances is evil that's that I will admit we we part company yeah and that's fine I mean this is we knew we would disagree that's fine and right there's also a lot of things we agree about by the way there was one and I want to say his name because you I may be wrong but I believe there was one major uh uh uh Evangelical leader I mean major he was a household name for a while Dobson I think oh no you didn't know what I'm referring to I I don't want to misspeak it yeah maybe Thursday you can look this up but I believe Dobson at one point Justified masturbation in certain circumstances yeah see what I respect about you and what I respect about Jordan Peterson is that very often you tell us to take the Hard Road you're like yes it's bloody hard but be a man like rise up choose the harder path choose the more virtuous path I just wish that you'd you or Peterson would be more emphatic when it comes to sexual sins that of course you're tempted to it of course you want to do it what's interesting isn't why people masturbate to pornography it's obvious what's interesting is why people decide that a lot again don't throw in the word pornography you masturbate alone is a sin to you and evil what if he's masturbating to an image he makes up in his brain if he's masturbating to nothing I would consider it an evil okay fair okay yeah Dustin James Dr James Dobson in about 1987 the quote appears to be is my opinion that masturbation is not much of an issue with God it's a normal part of adolescence indeed Jesus did not mention it dot dot dot Jesus didn't mention a lot of things well yeah but while it's not insignificant nor does the Hebrew Bible talk about it the spilling of seed with Onan from which we get onanism the sin was not that he spilled the seed the sin was that he didn't have intercourse with his uh with his brother's a widow so the I mean the Catholic would say that that reason would show us that masturbation is disordered that pornography is disordered because it takes a natural act which is good and it thwarts the end of it that's why I use the eggs what about a man who can't attract a woman he he should spend his life obviously then yes because masturbation is not like urination it's not something you need to do or else you're going to become neurotic and die somehow you're not going to find anybody in the morgue with a tag on their toe that says or something all right and I think I think it's I think it's it's a cornified culture that's given as the ideal life would involve none of this I am not preoccupied with the ideal life I am preoccupied with a good life as I often say I am not interested in making Saints I am interested in making good people and uh it is so hard to make good people in a post-communist post-nazi world post-islam it's not post yet Islamic terrorist world I admit I am preoccupied with real evil rather than non-identic Behavior I I admit it that that's where I I need to clarify my thought which might make it more acceptable to you I would say that there are circumstances in which masturbating or even looking at pornography could be a less grave sin due to Habit due to immaturity it's even killer culture we make fun of masturbation we don't seem to be proud of masturbation the even atheists there's this big move to to stop being a cream puff and masturbating into a sock and instead of instead of that control your sexual desire you're not a dog uh to be neutered you're someone who has Mastery over your lower passions so I have a desire for food but if I eat like a pig then this is going to be bad for my health and this would be the sin of gluttony I could have the desires but the difference is you can eat orgasm with eating and it's not the same thing you did no you're saying that I I'm equating them to show that they're dissimilar in that if I don't eat I die but it sounds like what you're saying is what but the man who never has a woman surely he should masturbate or else what and I'm saying he's not going to die he's not going to die right and I so I think the man should have Mastery over that passion and use it appropriately that's what I would say okay uh ideally I agree with you so by the way that's important that I said that okay I do ideally ideally I ideally but as I said like in the case of marriages I want them to love each other and and by the way let me just this is not utterly germane to our uh uh our debate here but uh having spoken to so many couples for so many years uh I have a phrase which uh is relative related to this but not exactly this but related you should make love outside the bedroom and have sex inside the bedroom I love it I but I think I know what you mean you love it well it's yeah if I'm ignoring my wife if if I'm not doing acts of kindness towards her throughout the day then right you can't expect to come together and be intimate in that most intimate of Embraces uh is selfish but I want to love my bride throughout the day sacrifice for her but what I I know I'm saying more than that okay that of course I'm saying that but I am saying more than that I'm I'm also saying that the bedroom might be a place for the non-holy uh to express itself because we I believe we're created in God's image and animals image and if we the sex allows the animal under holy circumstances which is matrimony for both Jews and Catholics that the word for for marriage in Hebrew means holy I mean that is the whole talmudic volumes on marriage and sex is called kadushin which means many Catholics know means holy so I I uh is a bearded Orthodox Rabbi I don't know if you're familiar with him and he wrote a book called kosher sex his argument is as follows and he's very anti-uh porn very uh his argument is anything that the couple the married couple agrees to in the bedroom they should do that that's the place and that's why he calls it kosher sex it wasn't uh by the way universally received well among among some religious Jews your views are not all that different from many Orthodox Jews why was he opposed to pornography for the same reasons you are thank you so much for watching that clip if you want to watch the entire thing go over to Matt frad.locals.com locals is like a non-work patreon so if you want to support the work of pints with Aquinas you can do that over there Matt frad.locals.com and when you do get a ton of things in return you get bonus podcasts you get bonus episodes of things you get monthly spiritual Direction with Father Gregory Pine you get monthly audio books you get our print newspaper sent to your door quarterly and we even pay for shipping there's a ton of things you get and you also get the satisfaction of knowing that you're supporting the work of plants with Aquinas Matt frat.locals.com

Channel: Pints With Aquinas

Views: 630,609

Keywords: aquinas, catholicism, catholic, pints with aquinas, matt fradd, theology, debate, religion, st. thomas aquinas, thomas aquinas, philosophy

Id: Xp8UaU7PboM

Length: 48min 31sec (2911 seconds)

Published: Fri Apr 21 2023