Haggai Matar & Gideon Levy: Israel's Fight over Judicial Changes Ignores Occupation & Apartheid

well Mass protests are continuing in Israel after lawmakers passed a highly contested bill that would gut the power of the Supreme Court by preventing it from blocking government decisions it deems unreasonable the bill is part of a broader set of judicial reforms pushed by Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu that has sparked months of unprecedented protests on Monday Israeli police fired water Cannons of protesters in Tel Aviv meanwhile Israel's Medical Association has begun a 24-hour strike to protest the gutting of the Judiciary in addition more than ten thousand idea for service have pledged not to report to duty in an act of protest the push to weaken the Judiciary has been so divisive that former Israeli Prime Minister omert says Israel could be entering a civil war prior to the vote Monday Israeli opposition leader and former prime minister yair lapid spoke in the knesset we are on our way to a disaster if you vote in for this bill today you bring the end of The People's Army you strengthen Israel's enemies you harm the state of Israel's security moments before the vote took place opposition lawmakers began chanting Shame Shame as some lawmakers tore up the text of the legislation [Applause] after Israeli opposition lawmakers walked out of the knesset supporters of the judicial reform passed the measure by a vote of 64-0 later in the day prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu who had just been released from the hospital having a pacemaker implanted gave a pre-recorded address on television today we carried out the required Democratic move the move was aimed at restoring a degree of balance between the authorities which was here for 50 years we passed the bill of reasonableness so that the elected government could lead the policy in accordance with the decision of the majority of the country's citizens Palestinian leaders have criticized both netanyahu's government for gutting the Judiciary as well as the massive protest movement for not speaking up for Palestinian rights Monday's vote came as Israel continues its deadly Crackdown in the West Bank earlier today Israeli forces killed three Palestinian men in obla 17 Palestinians were also arrested in overnight raids in related news the American anthropological Association has voted to boycott Israeli academic institutions in a major victory for the palestinian-led boycott divestment and sanctions BDS movement we're joined Now by two Israeli journalists in Tel Aviv hagai matar is executive director of 972 advancement of Citizen journalism the nonprofit that publishes 972 magazine matar is a conscientious objector who refused to serve in the Israeli Army get on Levy is also with us he's a columnist for the newspaperets and a member of its editorial board one of his recent pieces is headlined Israeli protest against the judicial coup has militaristic characteristics we welcome you both to democracy Now I want to start with a guy matar you are a conscientious objector you are a writer for 972 magazine the executive director of 972 can you respond to what happened in the knesset after the opposition walked out it was um uh a vote of what was it 64-0 for gutting the Judiciary and also these massive protests including today the um Health Care Association and the reservists um saying they won't serve as a result of this legislation yes uh thank you Amy for having me in this very troubling times um basically that the bill was passed um shortly before it was passed here the Minister of Justice is one of the champions of this legislation went on stage in the method to give all the reasons why things um this measure should be passed and he gave a list of Supreme Court rulings um in which he thought the use of reasonableness was unreasonable uh and all these examples all of them were connected to the Palestinian struggles it was that there was an example of the Court allowing Palestinian bereaved families to come to a shared ceremony with Israelis uh to mourn their dead there was an example of a palestinian-american citizen who wanted to come in to Israel and was stopped for being a BDS activist and that was struck down by the court now the Israeli Supreme Court is not an ally to Palestinians there's green lit already does of war crimes but in those very very few instances where it has put guard rails on occupation and apartheid practices that's what the government is targeting as well as trying to approve all sorts of political corruption that the court has served as a guardrail to has the legislation that was just passed weakened uh the court because we've heard the gutting or Awakening but we haven't heard much about the concrete uh legislation that was passed starting for context Israel does not have a constitution and it is very uh weak in terms of legislation generally and a lot of what we see in the fabric of Israeli law and Society is based on precedent and uh judicial president in Israel sometimes relies on this issue of reasonableness so we have a good recent example was that Netanyahu wanted to appoint foreign minister of finance someone who was just recently convicted for the third time for tax evasion uh fraud and theft um and the Supreme Court basically said this is extremely unreasonable to put someone like that in charge of the Ministry of Finance so this is a good example and again one of the motivations for uh for this initiative uh there are other reasons for the government to push forward with this legislation but I think these examples kind of show what the court has been doing and what the government does not wanted to do in terms of gutting it and suppressing its abilities to act and restrain the government's power and there has been a talk of further so-called reforms uh that the allies of Netanyahu want to pass or what are those reforms so it's important to remember that in January said the Minister of Justice siriv Levine announced a whole package of a Judicial overhaul it was a set of quite a few bills that the government committed to pass within two three months uh in the winter the massive protest movement is what forced the government to kind of narrow down to just one bill at a time it's something that we hear called the salami method just slicing it to thin little pieces of legislation and this is the first one to pass but there are many more on the way some of them are meant to allow Netanyahu to escape his uh current uh trial for good political corruption other measures are meant to allow the government to enact territories and do basically whatever it wants with any kind of supervision from the side of the Court there are many other pieces of legislation they all together basically are meant to ensure that the government both can do whatever it wants in this current term and can persecute political Rivals and ensure its uh re-election in the future by disqualifying other political Rivals especially Palestinian citizens uh who whose parties might be disqualified if the judicial overhaul comes through foreign I want to bring get on Levy into this conversation also in Tel Aviv talk about um this piece that you wrote about the militaristic nature of these protests explain what you mean I have all the sympathy at our this protest movement the biggest ever in Israel and I can just appreciate all those hundreds of thousands of Israelis who are going to the streets regularly week after week day after day spending a lot of time energy sweat and many times even blood in order to express their protest but I have also some criticized some critics about this movement one you just mentioned Amy the fact that they really totally ignore deliberately the occupation and the apartheid but not less than this the structure and the combination of people who lead this this protest and who are really running it finally it is about the old boys from the Army I don't say they are the only one by all means not but they are giving the tone generals who head the state and now as we say in Hebrew and now all of a sudden the state is being taken from them by the right Wingers and they go to protest it is very problematic figures like heads of the Shabbat of the Sacred Services of Israel who are quite well known at least to your viewers say Amy in its brutal methods of blackmailing people and and doing all kind of anti-democratic actions in the West Bank including kidnapping people without any supervision legal supervision so those are the people who speak about democracy those are part of the leadership of this protest movement those are the heroes of this movement I have a problem with this you know generals and head of secret Services cannot teach anyone anything about democracy they should learn it by themselves before they teach others and uh could you comment also as you you have in some in some of your writings about the irony of talking about preserving democracy while both sides in this battle continue to uh assume and expect that the uh the oppression of the Palestinians will continue Legend yourself a struggle among the white community in South Africa about democracy for the white ones it is a struggle over democracy and by the way they had democracy they had elections they had quite Free Press in a way they had democracy but it was a democracy only to a very small part of the population of South Africa the Democracy that we are now struggling over is a democracy only for the Jewish citizens of Israel and partially for the Palestinian citizens of Israel what about five million people who live under the control of the same institutions who have no civil rights whatsoever who don't even possess a citizenship of any country in the world how can you speak about democracy and ignore this what kind of democracy can exist in an apartheid state I mean those things I understand they desire the ambition to try to recruit as many people as possible to this protest which is a just protest but the way they ignore the real dark side of Israel is for me unacceptable and unbearable and hagai matar as a conscientious objector the move of the 10 000 IDF or service Israeli Defense Forces or service to go on this strike today the significance of this and um their response to what get on Levy is saying so so I think I very much agree with the gidon um obviously I I think there it is very meaningful that this is happening that people are using this tool that until recently both conscientious objection and tools like the investment in sanctions campaign were seen as completely Beyond The Pale something that's outside of legitimacy in Israeli politics and now you have people from the center the mainstream of Israeli Society using both conscientious objection and calling the International Community to use molecular divestment and sanctions to save democracy um in Israel uh of course ignoring the Palestinian struggle but using these tools that Palestinians have been using for so long I think first it's very impressive that there is such a mobilization of resistance and it's troubling that people are not aware enough of uh what they've been missing in terms of the occupation apart and some of them are actively supporting it and at the same time I think what we're seeing is a completely new openness within this protest movement alongside the militarism alongside the nationalism and openness to rethink questions of democracy and equality in a meaningful way we're seeing much more many more people talking about the occupational apartheid now than we have for I would say almost 20 years there's a willingness that this crisis is creating uh which we as journalists are trying to capture on and educate people about what they've been missing and give them the tools to start understanding uh what the real problems of democracy have in here uh in for decades and again Levy I wanted to ask you to uh what degree do you believe that all of this judicial overhaul is a direct result of a prime minister Netanyahu trying to escape uh his legal troubles and the possibility of going to jail I wouldn't put everything on this I mean Netanyahu is quite a cynical politician very very sophisticated and shrewd but I wouldn't put everything on this don't forget the real engine of this so-called reform or revolution is the Minister of Justice and he is a genuine ideological hardcore right-winger nothing to do with with a netanyahu's trial I think he couldn't care less about the results of this trial Mr Levin has a a very clear ideology one can only Envy how clear his ideology is unlikely many times the ideology of the Zionist left which is always vague he has a very clear ideology and he's trying to implement it Netanyahu is using it for his own personal purposes but it cannot be explained I mean the whole reform only by the trial of Netanyahu by all means notes White House Press Secretary Kareem Jean-Pierre called Monday's Clinic said vote unfortunate but reiterated Biden administration's support for Israel this is what you said our commitment to Israel's security is Ironclad and one of the things that you've heard us say before and I'll reiterate the core of that relationship is certainly on Democratic Values a shared democratic values and interests and that will continue to be the case um you know President Biden has had a friend of has been a friend of Israel for decades it is a is a personal relationship it's a lifelong a friend of Israel as I mentioned in my statement that came out moments ago and we are going to continue to continue to engage our Israeli counterparts to try and strengthen that special bond and that certainly will be um the um the plan going forward get on if you can talk about the significance of in the midst of these Mass protests President Biden inviting um and celebrating the Israeli president Herzog at the White House he gave a joint address to a joint session of Congress and President Biden spoke with Netanyahu on the phone and invited him to the United States not clear when or where unfortunately it's time to ask the United States when will you turn from a hollow talkings and condemnations into Deeds I mean for how long will this masquerade go on in which the United States is not very happy about all kinds of things that Israel is doing but does nothing but nothing to influence Israel to change its way how long will taxpayers in the United States spend so much money over quite a well-off state whose social needs are very very low whose military is one of the strongest and well equipped in the world and doing all this without any kind of conditions a terms everything is given to Israel and Israel can do whatever it wants Without Really any consideration of what's the United States is asking so one of the to either the United States is not serious about it which is my suspicion all the United States really believes that by talkings and condemnations Israel will change this is also very disappointing because after 55 years of occupation of violating any resolution of the International Community By ignoring American policy toward the Palestinians Israel continues to do whatever it wants so if the United States didn't draw the lesson it means that the United States is very happy about everything that Israel is doing and the proof is that United States does nothing to change it including Obama's regime Administration and now Biden Administration with which has I'm sure very good intentions but this is not enough when it comes to Israel and finally hagai matar I'd like to ask you how do you see this crisis uh potentially developing what are the the prospects for it being resolved do you think that the massive protest will prevent any further overhauls of the Court I think the government is in trouble it might not seem like that when they passed you know a bill of 64-0 but um I do think that they're in trouble it they've been limited from doing what they had initially set out uh to do which is a full judicial overhaul they've been basically prevented from doing that and I think with this latest measure and the responses we're seeing from so many different parts of the Israeli economy and security systems and and the unions are now talking about potentially going on strike and the demonstrators on the streets and there's just so much going on that I don't think that what the government is doing is sustainable they might take a pause now uh just to kind of reassess they might try and push forward and I think they will probably fail um and there's a chance this government at some point will collapse and be replaced with a new one very much like the previous one we had the so-called government of change um which will put a stop to this whole judicial reform and move towards full authoritarianism but at the same time there's a serious risk that if that happens there'll be a feeling of vindication of a victory of democracy or as in fact Palestinians will continue paying the price under such a government as well so I think we have to be very very careful of either the scenario of this government continuing to doing what it wants and of the scenario of this government falling and being replaced by another that is better for democracy for Jews but just as bad for democracy for Palestinians and we just have 30 seconds Becca Don Levy just the news of the last hours that Israeli forces killed three Palestinian men in nabla 17 Palestinians were also arrested in an overnight raid how aware is the Israeli population I mean we are seeing water cannons we're seeing some of the methods the Israeli government uses in the West Bank applied to the protesters but only some I mean when you see this level of killing of Palestinians just in the past year talk about what is the awareness in Israel and what you think needs to be done about this now this this may be the core of the issue the the fact that Israeli Society is living in total denial the media is the best collaborator to supply this denial and Israelis don't know anything don't want to know anything about what's going on half an hour away from their homes this killing of three Palestinians today is hardly covered and if it's covered it's covered in the most minimal way you can cover I mean a killing of a dog of the Army is covered in bigger bigger ways than killing SRI Palestinians at least two of them innocent as far as I understood so this daily killing is going on Israeli Society couldn't care less the occupation is not on the table anymore and the only way to make it change is when Israelis will have to pay and to be punished for those crimes as long as this doesn't happen they can continue to protest against democracy against damage to their own democracy and ignore the fact that they are living in an apartheid state getting Levy want to thank you for being with us calling us for our rights member of its editorial board the Israeli newspaper and hagai matar executive director of 972 advancement of Citizen journalism publishes 972 magazine

Channel: Democracy Now!

Views: 62,622

Keywords: Democracy Now, Amy Goodman, News, Politics, democracynow, Independent Media, Breaking News, World News

Id: F-bQ-kiYr5E

Length: 23min 40sec (1420 seconds)

Published: Tue Jul 25 2023