The Whitewashing of Neo-Nazis: Lev Golinkin & Ben Makuch on How Far Right Is Exploiting Ukraine War

this is democracy Now democracynow.org The War and Peace report I'm Amy Goodman with Juan Gonzalez we are going to talk today about what's happening in Ukraine we're joined right now by a journalist who's written extensively in The Intercept a reporter who's looked at the role of neo-nazis in the war the ukrainian-born journalist Lev golenken is also with us he recently wrote a piece for the nation headlined the Western media is whitewashing the azov Battalion the piece looks at the Neo-Nazi roots of one of Ukraine's most heralded paramilitary forces earlier this month turkey released five former as of commanders who are being held in Turkey they flew back on a plane with Ukrainian president the vlodimir zelensky meanwhile The Intercept recently detailed how an anti-putin Russian militia that carried out attacks inside Russia in May is led by a Neo-Nazi who who's maintained links with American neo-nazis that piece was written by Ben maku a national security reporter who used to work as a correspondent for Vice news tonight Ben's also just written a new piece for the intercept about an American army that wanted for murder in the United States who escaped to Ukraine to fight with the right sector an ultra nationalist Ukrainian militia we're going to get to that in a moment but Lev galenken and Ben macku we welcome you both to democracy Now Ben I want to talk with you about the piece that you wrote Russian militia has links to America Neo-Nazi and anti-trans figures why don't you lay out what you found so the leader of the Russian volunteer Corps Dennis kapustin is this well-known Neo-Nazi figure not only in Europe but he also came to prominence in the United States when he hosted a podcast in 2021 with a man named Rob rundo who is the founder and leader of the rise above movement this is a character who has been very involved with the online neonati community but also his group was at the Charlottesville ride some of them were indicted he himself came under probe by the FBI for some actions at Berkeley and after those podcast appearances I dug a little further and Dennis capucin also had connections to this man named Christopher poll house who is this four-year Marine Corps veteran that now leads this group called The Blood Tribe but most recently has shown up to drag events in Ohio carrying a pistol doing the Sig hail and intimidating protesters so to me when I started to see these connections with someone like Dennis who very clearly has at least the quiet support of Ukrainian forces when he attacked Russia from Ukraine it it to me was very significant especially when you saw that American weapons and American armored vehicles were allegedly used by the group and from what you can tell how extensive are the far-right groups in Russia and and their possible connections to those in Ukraine well foreign groups in Russia and Ukraine they have had links before but I I would say I mean the Russian far-right groups they they're extremely anti-prudent they had been in the past I I covered soccer hooligans in Russia in 2016 uh right on the lead up to the World Cup because many of them were talking about causing violence uh at the World Cup in in 2018 and these groups were extremely anti-putin they were some of them had actually done uh prison sentences for for terrorism and these are the types of figures that are now a part of the Russian volunteer Corps and and to be clear these types of these types of individuals are not only hyper violent and have been involved in criminal networks in Russia but they are very much you know very very pronounced neo-nazis that you know adhere to extremely racist and violent ideologies and these are the types of people that are involved in the Russian volunteer Corps let me bring Lev galenken into this conversation um Ben Lev can you talk about your most recent piece and also the significance of zelenski flying back with turkey with the permission of erdogan to the ire of Putin with the as of Stahl um leaders can you talk about who they are and what exactly this deal was yeah um the commander of azov who is this this is people who were trapped in mariopal who gave themselves up to the Russians and who according to a prisoner exchange deal were supposed to stay in Turkey until the end of the war uh zielinski broke that deal and brought them back the leader Denise prokopenko uh he's somebody who commanded hazov and he's the type of person who Western media says is an example of a not a Neo-Nazi okay um in in reality he came out of the Kiev soccer hooligan milieu uh it's called the white voice Club I think the name speaks for itself he's been photographed numerous times with a Totten cough which is one of the most common Neo-Nazi symbols in the world and he was part of as I was beginning he was part of as I was beginning from 2014 from when there was still just a battalion formula of a Neo-Nazi gang and it's it's one he's now returned uh either he will begin his duties as commander of azov again now or he's already been reinstituted but um it's it's insane that he's the type of person who we look at and we say you know azov no longer is commanded by far-right groups when you have somebody like that there has been criticism of your reporting Lev saying that you're making too much of the white supremacist influences or the far right the Neo-Nazi influences now in Ukraine and the fighting against Russia that though they may have had their Beginnings there um can you respond to that yeah it's uh it's pretty insane that every time Marjorie Taylor green sneezes uh it's the second coming of Hitler and yet here we have two brigades brigades of neo-nazis and we're perfectly fine with it so I mean the way I look at it is you can support Ukraine without glorifying without whitewashing neo-nazis and it's insane that we are doing this I it's I think if I was reporting on neonachis anywhere else I wouldn't have gotten any criticism but it's because they're our neo-nazis and we're celebrating them then I've gotten criticism I mean I think it's I didn't start the obsession with azov Putin did when he began this war but also our Foreign Service and our media began when they started celebrating them as Heroes so um I'd like I mean anybody who's criticizing this it really doesn't matter because I I feel that two brigades of neo-nazis is too too many especially for us to be supporting can you talk about what happened at Stanford University on June 29th the panel that it held from the azoff Brigade lay out the scene for us uh azov has had uh extensive tours of America with Visa wives that Dennis prokopenko's wife was one of them as well as and as a veteran um they would tour and they would do Goodwill relationship building and uh they've been many they've been invited to Congress they met with members of Congress and twice last fall and now last month they've been to Stanford which is incredible that you have this University which ironically one of Stanford's institutes published what is probably the most exhaustive study of azov's Neo-Nazi links okay so one of Stanford's own Institute for combating extremism has tracked us off and has extensively reported on them and yet at the same time Stanford invited them to campus twice both times they've met with prominent people with former Russia ambassador to Russia Michael McFall with uh Francis fukuyama it's and they they're going there they're projecting their uh logo in on the campus which is a Neo-Nazi logo a wolf's angle and uh Stanford apparently is perfectly fine with welcoming them uh the the the incredible part is that Stanford before has had a role when a lefty Jewish American cartoonist came on campus and who uses uh sarcastically uses Neo not uses Nazi imagery when that happened Stanford suddenly had a problem Stanford started putting out statements and having events about how this could trigger students and how this makes people uncomfortable and yet you have a new Nazi insignia and Neo-Nazi group on campus and they're welcome they're they have the red carpet out for them it's it's it's stunning and it's just irresponsible and love go Lincoln I wanted to ask you even before the Russian invasion of Ukraine uh Ukraine had be there were numerous articles being published in Europe and the U.S about how Ukraine had become a a uh a meeting point for far right and Neo-Nazi groups from the United States and Russia there were regular conferences there and of course we've had thousands of foreigners uh volunteered to fight against the Russian uh invading troops what is your sense of What proportion of these foreign Fighters are also on neo-nazis it's hard to get the proportion especially these days because they're just so much unreported there's so much under the radar it's the point is that azov has remained a hub for neo-nazis to come over and they can get Battlefield experience it's it's no different than the networks of islamists who recruited Isis when they recruited people from all over the world to come and get experience so you have this and it's azerb is only a tiny part of the Ukrainian military but they're also have I mean how many how many how many world countries have actual Neo-Nazi units so azov has used this war to their advantage they've used it brilliantly and they are they are tremendous Fighters and it doesn't help that um America and Western media the same media who spend seven years tracking azov and tracking its Neo-Nazi nature Suddenly at the beginning of this Invasion suddenly turned around and said that all that all of a sudden this organization stopped being far right it's it's it's an incredible and this is what attracted my nation article it's just an incredible feat of whitewashing with just denying reality with Western media across the board suddenly saying based on nothing based on based on propaganda that these this entire group that attracted neo-nazis from all over the world that we've reported on has suddenly stopped stop being neo-nazis and now they're okay uh it's it's North Korean levels of propaganda and to see this happen in Western media it's rather disturbing I want to bring back in Ben macku Ben can you talk about the new just out intercept fugitive combatant wanted for murder an army that escaped to Ukraine and fought the Russians it's about a veteran named Craig Lang tell us his story so Craig Lang is in Iraq and Afghanistan war veteran and he left the military in 2014 under very murky's circumstances he allegedly had an armed confrontation with his now ex-wife he went AWOL on his base and then he left the military he says it was a dishonorable disc or he says it was a in other than honorable discharge and the military won't actually clarified they'll and the doj just says that it's a discharge but following that he worked in the oil fields in North Dakota and saw the news in Ukraine around 2015 and thought to himself I want to go over there and with a few Facebook messages and some exchanges with people there he ended up in donbass which at the time was a frozen trench warfare against Russian backed separatists but also Russian regulars and he was fighting for a group called The Right sector which is a very Ultra nationalist organization that's sort of been this or has been a popular meeting ground for foreign Fighters for many years it attracted lots of neo-nazis but also anarchists and and essentially just radicals and he was fighting in a unit of mostly foreigners that subsequently got war crimes investigations into them both by the FBI and by Foreign authorities and around 2017 he left came back to the United States and it's around that point with someone else another U.S army veteran who also served in the right sector the doj alleges that he schemed and killed a couple in Florida uh in a gun sale to finance a trip to Venezuela where he was going to fight with uh anti-venezuelan government forces now he apparently ended up getting to Colombia he left and went back to Ukraine in 2018 2019 and around that time the FBI was on to him and he ended up in Ukrainian custody and since then he's been in this back and forth but in courts but what is really interesting is by 2021 right around the the end of the year he appealed his case to the European Court of Human Rights and that allowed him to stay in the country but he was on essentially house arrest or Keith City Limits arrest and of course we all know by February 2022 the Russian full-scale invasion of the country happened and as that was happening someone like Lang who's fought extensively not only in in Ukraine but also for the US Military ended up offering his service Services up and where did he end up uh right away was the right sector and he ended up fighting all the way till August 2022 at which point Ukrainian authorities finally booted him out of uniform and now he's facing extradition again but I think more than anything why I found this story so fascinating is that clearly this war and you know we're seeing more and more just how much control the Ukrainian military has and what's been going on especially in the early days you know a lot of things have slipped through the cracks and I think there's no question that the U.S military has had similar problems in their own prosecution of Wars over the last 20 years but I think you know when the Pentagon is offering up billions and billions of dollars to Ukraine to defend itself there needs to be some amount of scrutiny as to how the how it's military and you know looking at things like Azad Battalion and right sector being involved in in their actual military apparatus and how that operates and how someone like Lang who did fight for the country twice could also serve with the military knowing that he was facing extradition for you know pretty grisly double murder that that involves a a very lengthy uh a very lengthy set of court documents and allegations against him well well Ben I wanted to ask you a similar question the the uh is a situation in Ukraine analogous to what happened uh for instance during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan that Drew jihadists from around the world uh and uh and obviously became the basis for the development of Al Qaeda or is the fact that it is such a conventional War not a guerrilla War making it a lot more difficult for these foreign fighters who come in uh to stay very long or participate wondering your sense of that so I've been covering this for many years this exact Network pipeline because I knew very early on I I I followed several very Ultra violent Neo-Nazi groups like the base and Adam Walton division there was always a lot of Ambitions to get these kinds of guys through to Ukraine I knew of one ex-base member who actually ended up in Ukraine and fought not exactly sure exactly which part or which unit he was with but the Ukrainian military and kicking him and another American out of the country in the fall of 2024 joining a Neo-Nazi organization and trying to fight for the war so we know that there there has been secretive pipelines and networks and I know from my own sources and my own information that that still exists now is it to the extent to which we thought it could be there was a lot of of analysts and experts saying that this was going to turn into sort of this isis-like network that was going to mimic very much so what the Islamic State looked like in you know 2014 2015 2016 I would say and I think many people have been studying this say that that hasn't happened or at least we don't know exactly how that has happened but I will say looking back at someone like Christopher pullhouse who's connected to Dennis capustan who's the leader of the Russian uh volunteer Corps this is a man who's now said he wants to go join the war in Ukraine so I think the Ambitions of the far right and seeing how this this conflict continues and you know I've always said the longer continues the more opportunities for this sort of thing to happen will become and I do think the Ukrainian military and the authorities do not want this to happen and I think they're they're they're Vigilant to some extent but I also think that in times of war and you know I've crossed that border into Ukraine through Poland and I know how porous it can be you know the the government has a lot on its plate and I think trying to stop uh American extremists getting over while I think they can do a pretty good job of it there's no doubt that that could be a problem and I think this is something that is sort of a wait and see uh you know when it comes to you mentioned the mujahideen we didn't know exactly how severe that problem got and the formation of Al Qaeda until quite a few years later so I think the same sort of applies to to the the war in Ukraine but as I said we do know that those secretive networks they do exist I think they still exist the scale I don't think is on the level of Islamic State or the mujadin but I do think that these these links and these International networks are are very much around um level Lincoln um if you can talk about Ben was just talking about Dennis kapustin who was described by the Anti-Defamation League as a Russian Neo-Nazi can you talk about the Russian Neo-Nazi elements within Wagner and I was like shocked to learn that Wagner was named the Wagner mercenary Group by its founder for the composer Wagner who was Hitler's favorite composer yeah it's it's interesting because Putin's uh justification his excuse for this war was to what he called denotsify Ukraine the the pretense he made for his illegal Invasion for the war is that Ukraine has neo-nazis and Russia is going to invade and they're going to get rid of them he did this because partly to partly because he didn't have any other excuses and also partly because he wanted to to tap into Russia's memory of World War II and fighting the Nazis back then the irony is that uh denotsifying Ukraine is being done in large part by the Wagner Group which is riddled with neo-nazis so uh it's it shows I mean first it shows the hypocrisy of Russia that's using neo-nazis to uh supposedly demossify Ukraine when instead what they're doing is committing war crimes uh committing an illegal Invasion on this it's it's interesting because most neo-nazis split you have a lot of them splitting depending on how they view Russia some groups of neo-nazis view Russia as the last Bastion of the white race and they admire Putin and love him you see a lot of a lot of us in the far right they view Russia that way and then on the other side is people who view Russia as not even a white country it's a barbaric Asian horde that Ukraine and Poland and the baltics have to hold back so depending on where and where one Falls that's why you kind of have neo-nazis on both sides of this conflict and they're they have very identical World Views it's just it depends on how they see Russia and what happened that they go on one side or the other side of the conflict Ukrainian as a ukrainian-american are you concerned about what will happen about the empowering of the neo-nazis within Ukraine um when the war ends yeah I mean I think you don't have to be a ukrainian-american or an American to just be concerned because uh these people getting a national profile and the message that we are sending is that if you're the right type of Neo-Nazi we will arm you we will train you we will take you to Congress we will celebrate you across our media you will be our hero and for example Facebook did the incredible incredible move where they banned azov Acro all azov pages they had them banned as a hate group after the invasion began Facebook announced that they still have as obviously as a hate group but it's they're going to allow posts praising as of in other words yeah they're a hate group but you know hate groups can do good things too the the good people on both sides and this is what this war has has created and eventually Facebook just wound up dropping us off from its hate list of hate groups all together so we're sending a very dangerous message that if you're the right type of neo-nazis we will not only work with you we will celebrate you and and I think that message is going to be heard across the world and in its deeply problematic then we have 20 seconds your final comments from your research years in Ukraine well I would agree with Lev that you know when this ends that's going to be the real question I had someone from the azov uh movement tell me who was quite senior in the political side say to me in February 2022 that Ukraine is going to be the next Texas of Europe because there's so many weapons there and I think when this is all over that's going to be something that we're all going to have to face as a security issue in Europe and I think when you have far-right extremists who might have access to that that may be quite a problem to look out for well we're going to leave it there Ben maku National Security reporter for The Intercept we'll link to your pieces there and Lev galenken Ukrainian American journalist will link to your recent piece in the nation the Western media's whitewashing news off Battalion I'm Amy Goodman

Channel: Democracy Now!

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Id: 1B41Ux-2xP8

Length: 24min 21sec (1461 seconds)

Published: Wed Jul 19 2023