"The Palestine Laboratory": Antony Loewenstein on How Israel Exports the Technology of Occupation

this is democracy Now democracynow.org The War and Peace report I'm Amy Goodman the Palestine laboratory how Israel exports the technology of occupation around the world that's the title of a new book by the Australian journalist Anthony Lowenstein who examines how Israel's military-industrial complex has used the occupied Palestinian territories for decades he says as a testing ground for weaponry and surveillance technology that they then export around the world Anthony Lowenstein is the author of a number of books including disaster capitalism and my Israel question he was based in East Jerusalem between 2016 and 2020 his most recent article for the Sydney Morning Herald is being Jewish and critical of Israel can make you an outcast I should know Anthony is joining us from Sydney Australia we welcome you to democracy now Anthony your book has just come out what do you mean by the term the Palestine Laboratory thanks so much for having me on Amy what I mean by that is that the occupation of Palestine by Israel is now the longest occupation in modern times 56 years and counting there's obviously been an occupation of sorts since 1948 but particularly since 1967 and during those years what Israel has done very successfully from its perspective is find various tools and Technologies to maintain and control Palestinians and what they've done during that time what Israel has done is increasingly export those tools and Technologies but also those methods those so-called counter-insurgency methods so what I look at in the book both being on the ground in Palestine for many years and also 3D classified documents and various interviews across the world is that you find in over 130 countries across the globe in the last decades Israel has sold forms of anything from spyware so-called smart walls facial recognition tools a range of tools of occupation and repression that have initially been tested in Palestine on Palestinians so in other words what I'm saying is that the occupation of Palestine is not staying there it's not a conflict that remains geographically based just in Palestine it's become so-called Global Palestine how would you describe politicide a term you use politicide I think was a term that was coined by Barrel kimmeling who is now the late amazing academic and he was talking really about the concept of a desire within many in the Israeli Elite to find ways to destroy Palestinians that's not not necessarily just through killing them but also through extinguishing their political identity their political self-determination and when looking at from the outside one could argue that in some ways Palestinian resistance lives on your last segment talked about that very strongly Palestinians mostly have not left Palestine they remain there but certainly from the current Israeli government and I would argue for decades there has been a sense that there's a way to crush Palestinian aspirations their views their political reality their future their Horizon and by doing so Israel has increasingly marketed that to a global audience including in its whole identity as an ethno-nationalist State it's arguably the most successful ethno-nationalist state in the world a Jewish supremacist State and growing numbers of Nations around the world from India and others look to Israel with admiration and inspiration we just covered Modi in the lavish reception he got by the president of the United States Biden with the state dinner last night the joint session of Congress talk about a little more about how India looks to Israel look what India is doing under Modi of course is not solely because of Israel but traditionally Israel and India were not particularly good friends but in the last 10 years or so since Modi took power in 2014. there's been a real ideological alignment but the relationship is really twofold one it's a defense relationship so India buys huge amounts of Technology defense equipment spyware I interview a number of people in my book individuals in India lawyers others who are spied on by Israeli spyware particularly Pegasus by NSO group but also there's an ideological alignment a belief that many Indian officials in the Hindu fundamentalist government there are openly talking about admiration for what Israel is doing in the West Bank and wanting to do something similar in Kashmir and what I mean by that is they say that two reasons one because Israel gets away is that no one's stopping it there's a complete state of impunity that Israel has globally really but secondly this idea of bringing in according India's view huge numbers of Hindus to Muslim majority Kashmir to settle that territory to build so-called settlements akin to what Israel is doing in the West Bank and I think there's a really disturbing ideological alignment I would actually make the comparison between Israel and India today to Israel and apartheid South Africa back in the day Nations that were very very close ideologically and got inspiration from each other in the belief in Israel's case of course being a Jewish supremacist State and India's case being increasingly a Hindu fundamentalist State and that to me is something that should concern people including the US president so Anthony you talk about a Jewish supremacist state I'm wondering if you could talk about your own background something that you take on in this last piece you wrote being Jewish and critical of Israel can make you an outcast I should know and talk about your family your grandparents your great-grandparents those who died in Auschwitz those who didn't survive the Holocaust most of my family sadly Amy like most Jews who lived in Europe perished in the Holocaust including Auschwitz and the ones who got out and escaped Europe particularly in 1939 just before the war started escaped to wherever they were giving a Visa Australia Canada the US elsewhere and the ones who came to Australia when I was growing up I was born in the mid 70s in Melbourne Israel was not the center of their lives but Israel was seen as a safe haven for those who don't know as a Jew I can go to Israel tomorrow and within a few months I can almost certainly be a Jewish citizen if I can prove that I'm Jewish and I think for many Jews including my family there was a real reluctance and in fact a hostility to any kind of Palestinian reality Palestinian story even to meet Palestinians I mean as a young Jew I never met Palestinians and I think there is a change going on but certainly when I started writing about this issue around 20 years ago I wrote a book in 2006 called my Israel question where there are attempts by the Israel Lobby in Australia to censor the book those attempts to pulp the book there was condemnations of me in Parliament I mean it was ridiculous the book became a bestseller thanks to all that ridiculous controversy but over that time my parents both of whom lost most of their Jewish friends because it was the sins of the sun I was being critical of Israel I was trying to humanize Palestine so I'm not the only Jew of course who are saying this and I'm really encouraged in the last years in Australia the Us and other Western countries are growing almost like a Jewish insert agency against particularly an older generation of Jews who doesn't want to humanize Palestinians and somehow believes that Jewish identity should be tied to Jewish Supremacy and so for me personally I don't claim to be a victim that story that you reference at the beginning sort of gives a bit of a product history of my life but also explains that one does pay a price for it one does pay a price as a Jewish person I'm a secular anti-zionist due today but I feel often that there is a real moral collapse in much of the Jewish diaspora in the last decades it is changing but not nearly fast enough Anthony we were talking about the horrific shipwreck last week of migrants maybe up to 700 dead can you talk about Israeli technology used by the European Union to surveil and Target Asylum Seekers this really shocked me you know years ago when I started doing some work on this issue the short version is that the European Union in the last years after 2015 when they were in their view overwhelmed by particularly Muslim refugees from Syria Afghanistan and elsewhere didn't want to ever repeat that and they put in place almost The Fortress type Europe which has occurred in the last years which is a range of tools and Technologies to keep people out mostly Muslim and brown and black bodies of course and part of that Arsenal is using Israeli drones they're unarmed but they are flying over the Mediterranean 24 7 and they're used mostly by frontex which is the EU sort of border security arm and they're the eyes in the sky essentially so they are sending back all these images 24 7 to Warsaw which is where frontex is based and the EU has made a decision of course they don't admit this but this is the reality of letting people drown this is the new policy there are very very few rescue boats the EU barely rescues anyone there are some ngos that are trying to do so and I deeply admire what they're doing so the Israeli drone becomes a key Arsenal and part of this infrastructure of essentially allowing people to drown and to me it really goes to the heart of why Israeli drones are used by the EU because they were battle tested in Palestine over Gaza in a number of years in the last 15 years and you see this um almost um Israeli border industrial complex exported across the U.S Mexico border for example there are massive amounts of Israeli surveillance towers made by Albert which is Israel's lean defense company dotted across the border it's a key part of the U.S Arsenal across this border with Mexico and why was that company chosen by the us because of course it was tested first in Palestine so to me the real concern in the 21st centuries as the climate crisis worsens as resource Wards are worsening as Refugee numbers have never been high since World War II many Western nations are sadly making a choice to not welcome people in as we saw with the recent awful shipwreck or um disaster in the Mediterranean but in fact to build higher Walls and More surveillance and Israeli surveillance and technology and repression is part of that Arsenal that many nations are now a buying because it's been used in their views successfully on Palestinians in Palestine and you have evidence of the United States in a particularly controversial situations working with Israel to perhaps have for example in Guatemala Israel worked there so that the United States won't get won't be held responsible absolutely one of the things I documented in the book really clearly is that over the last 50 years a lot of Nations at the US was close to Israel almost became an American wingman often supporting arming training Nations the U.S even couldn't do officially because of some issue maybe in Congress and that did include Nations like Guatemala including at a point where they were committing genocide against their indigenous populations and one of the reasons that many of those Nations Guatemala Honduras Chile under Pinochet a range of other nations in Latin and South America although of course that went far further including in Africa and Asia was it they these nations were really attracted by the idea of learning the so-called skills that Israel was gaining through its occupation after 1967 how was it managing the Palestinian population how is it refreshing them essentially and there's huge amounts of evidence through Declassified documents and interviews much of which is in the book which really goes to the heart of showing that the U and Israel became almost like invaluable Partners during that period to the point where today the America Remains the world's biggest arms dealer 40 of the world's arms is sold by the U.S Israel is now 10th and just last week in fact Israel released his 2022 arms figures 12 and a half billion U.S the biggest amount ever and 25 of that was going to Arab autocracies after the so-called Abraham Accords the Trump deal from a few years ago so we're talking about Bahrain Saudi Arabia Morocco and others so what are they selling they're selling repressive technology spyware intelligence gathering a range of other tools to prop up U.S and Israeli back dictatorships in the Middle East so this is what the Israeli arms industry is about like this to me is a not just a moral failing but a really dark stain on the Jewish Legacy 75 years after the Holocaust like this is what we've become we meaning the Jewish population of the world the Legacy seems to be backing and supporting and arming the worst regimes in the world let me ask you about something you mentioned earlier and that's nso's Pegasus explain further how it's used and how it is used to infect the phones for example of journalists some for example who are in jail like in Morocco as you talk about the Abraham Accords omaradi who we interviewed before he was imprisoned and has been now for several years Pegasus got a lot of attention in the last years as peers all know as probably the most um known or inFAMOUS Israeli spy where essentially it's a tool that allows any government or Military Intelligence or Police Department to spy on someone's phone iPhone or Android and get all the information from that phone and it's popped up in dozens and dozens of countries around the world and I spend a lot of time in the book interviewing some of the victims of that surveillance in Togo for example in Mexico in India and Mexico interestingly enough is the biggest user of Pegasus by far there is an absolute Addiction in Mexico both under right-wing governments and the current nominally left-wing governments don't want to give this tool up and it's not just Pegasus of course there are many other Israeli companies doing the same thing but one of the things that I exploring The Bookies it's so much of the media in the last years around Pegasus missed the key point it was almost framed as a rogue Israeli company doing terrible things around the world but in fact companies like Pegasus actually are only private in name they are basically arms of the state Netanyahu and the mossed who have been going to various countries in the last 10 years that document this in the book and this has also been shown by Harris the Israeli newspaper often go to Nations like Saudi Arabia Rwanda and others and they hold Pegasus and other tools as a diplomatic carrot if you support us in the UN or elsewhere we will sell you the most powerful spyware in the world and that it works because it's been sold in UAE and Saudi and Rwanda and many other repressive States so unless there is a complete ban or massive regulation which currently does not exist at all these technologies will continue and even if NSO group disappears tomorrow and it's currently in finance crisis many other companies do exactly the same thing and which is why Israel is now one of the leading spyware exporters in the world well Anthony Lowenstein I want to thank you so much for being with us author of the new book The Palestine laboratory how Israel exports the technology of occupation around the world if you want to see our interview with the now imprisoned Moroccan journalist omaradi as well as our other work talking to the University of Toronto lab and others about Pegasus you can go to democracynow.org democracy Now produced with Mike Burke Renee feldstein August or Messiah Rhodes as well nermeen Sheikh Maria tarsena Tammy Warren after in Adora Samuel Studio John Hamilton Robbie Karen honey Masood Sanji Lopez our executive director Julie Crosby special thanks to Becca Staley John Randolph Paul Powell Mike defilippo Miguel negara Hugh Grant Dennis Moynihan David crude I'm Amy Goodman this is democracy Now foreign

Channel: Democracy Now!

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Keywords: Democracy Now, Amy Goodman, News, Politics, democracynow, Independent Media, Breaking News, World News

Id: 6eYVjWwOVC4

Length: 17min 10sec (1030 seconds)

Published: Fri Jun 23 2023