Gifts of The Spirit: With Matt Chandler (2019)

hey everybody this Josh Lewis with the earrin at radio thank you so much for tuning in today I've got a very exciting episode we're here with Matt Chandler in studio we'd be talking about careful continuation ISM the gifts of the Spirit how they operate in the church today stay tuned it's going to be a great episode [Music] your left what's up how's it doing man good so I'm just happy to be here excited yeah I'm stoked to have you tell everyone at home I know you've done the demystifying the gifts of the Holy Spirit series with us we've unpacked some of that together for those who have purchased that series online I would tell everyone a little bit about yourself and a little about your ministry yeah so I have a ministry called Thomas ministries it's sort of a platform I used to go and do conferences on on the gifts the spirit training and equipping believers to do the works of Jesus so you and I just did the series on demystifying the gifts what does it look like - for to hear God and what is prophecy and sort of gave a whole both a theological and practical framework for all of that stuff so you could check that out if you're interested in more of that you can get on the remnant radio and and look it up yeah good stuff well glad to have you on and then to my left your right I've got Matt Chandler who it was super surreal to even hear your voice downstairs I've listened to you since Bible school I mean talking 10 years ago yeah so this is this is fascinating because this topic has been something that I have looked far and wide for people to approach the gifts of the Spirit carefully and thoughtfully and if you like your you're a great guest to do that well I'm certainly trying yeah thank you you ask I'm either being overly careful or not careful enough there you guys part of the fun of it I guess yes so tell everyone a little bit about yourself before we get too far into the topic sure my name is Matt Chandler I am the pastor of the village Church in the DFW area I will soon be able to say in Flower Mound Texas yeah we're spinning off or rolling off our campuses to be autonomous churches also the president of x-29 which is a global church planning network on six continents 26 different languages pretty fascinating thing I got myself caught up in there yeah praise God so so did you guys ever find I know you're looking to expand your building or maybe purchase did you did you figure that out well the church the church looks to vote on March 31st okay the purchase of land about a and a half from us so be praying for it yeah we're real excited about it awesome praise God okay so so we're talking about the gifts of the Holy Spirit your church has been in a bit of a transition as far as I can tell online because I've I try to listen to as much as I can I've tended a few of the services since you guys are pretty local and man it was been it was refreshing to to sit in a service where worship musics on the screen in the scripture verse for every song that's saying is present I was like what is it is and then and then we get into the teaching you do you break apart the word and then you ask people to begin to pray and you encourage people if something pops into your head as you're as you're praying asking God for a word someone's face a thought you know go and share that with someone and you're encouraging the body to exercise these spiritual gifts how is that been for your church transitioning into that yeah well so I think the transition isn't so much a theological transition as the village church has been a careful continuous Church to use your language since day one yeah in fact it'd been one of the pillars as we call them if we're reformed in our soteriology or complementarian and our view of man and a woman hood we are charismatic or continuous in regards to our belief around the Sun gives the holy spirit so those things have been taught you you learn about those as you come into membership at the village so it it wasn't so much that we were making a theological shift as much as we wanted to make a if you think of theology and philosophy theology philosophy and practice kind of yes as the operations of the church theologically our foundation had been solid we had never really put up any walls and we had never really put any furniture in the room so you had this foundation that can hold the gifts that could hold what we wanted to see the Spirit of God do among us but we had just never created any on-ramps we've never designed any architecture sure to usher those in so if any time the ghost wanted to just break through it was there but we hadn't presented really kind of a a welcoming of the and how we were organized and how we were training and how it was just information so really I came under some great conviction several years ago on a couple of fronts not just this front this is the one that's getting all the press but the other one was complementarian practice and how we were actually operating in our complementarity and so the elders did what we just called an initiative where we dove back in theological II and and did the exegetical work first what does the Bible mean when it says these things we didn't start with can a woman do this kind of woman do this where I said what does the Bible say okay so if that's what the Bible says if you take all these verses and we're exegetically saying we agree that that's what they say now let's ask the question because we've done the work to ask the question let's not start with a question cherry-pick a verse and say this is the heart of God let's let's say this is the heart of God this is God as he's revealed himself in his word this is a desire and his design now let's ask the question and so then we needed to do the same thing with the gifts so I wanted to teach on the gifts last summer and so the elders did a work of defining and and let's dig into these texts again let's let's see what Paul means by this let's see what Jesus means like this what does this mean in acts we've historically said this about the book of Acts that it is both prescriptive and both simultaneously so so if these are true these definitions we're all saying this is what the Bible saying then how should we then approach and where do we create space we call them kind of Salem moments where do we kind of create Sayla in the life of the village that is a very busy very large very fast-moving Church so where do we create space to breathe to invite the holy spirit in and to practice and and fail and be encouraged and and where do we draw the distinction between being a false prophet and and practicing prophecy wrongly like where do we help people with these things where do we kind of combat the long right tradition of the sufficiency of the scriptures that seems to be at odds with the gifts of the Spirit specifically if you're primarily in a reformed stream which we are then then you're going to be told that the sufficiency of the word of God means that all of these things violate that sufficiency it's the way they interpret solo script that's right right that's right and so how do we create space to teach how do we create space to practice how do we what are the boundaries of the wildness of the Spirit that we're gonna be comfortable with and so we we dove into those conversations and then then I would say that by and large the the Holy Spirit has fought battles on the horizon and won them long before they became battles that I felt I had to fight or that our elders had to find at the right time people had an experience of the Holy Spirit that disarmed them had discombobulated them that flipped their kind of view of the Word of God upside down that meant they had to come out of a new way and I would still say that that I think one of the things that makes the village church really beautiful is that there's a spectrum of belief that's acceptable yep and so I am far more comfortable in these areas than some of my elders are I've got one or two that might be farther than I am but but maybe not right so I would probably be the farthest edge for us and then there's some guys that see it that get it but they feel like to quote one of them that they feel like a baby deer walking on ice so so yeah it's a baby boy and then that they're not sure you know I'm careful to help them with language here but they they're not sure they'll ever be as comfortable with those things as I am they're they're comfortable the essentials that the the doctrine of the Trinity in the closed hand of that those are the things that they live and breathe and they know and they understand they feel most comfortable in which I'm happy to just go praise God you you really work those things in but but do so in a way that doesn't cast suspicion on this over here and and that's where I feel like as as one of the elders in the lead pastor I can find myself between these two factions and factions is probably too strong of a word because it's a biblical word that that's used around division but but there is a side of the church that is more comfortable with a gift and gifts and really suspicious of deep theological training and then there's the group that's really comfortable in deep theological training that's really skeptical of and a bit nervous of those who are over here that are more comfortable with the gifts and so I've found that the majority of my time is just trying to go there not two things there one yeah they're not two things they're one and so they really there's been no blow-up no kind of mass exodus of the church no oh my gosh they're heretics but there is kind of a low hum at TVC of where's this going how does this end what is this so even if you've been to encounter which is what you were describing you can watch kind of the texture of the church take place because at the same time that I say if you get a word and if you want to go share that I'll also say if the if many of you are not there yet and you're not comfortable those things don't make these men and women varsity right so so here's what I've done here's a list of things that you can be praying for the church and so if that's not where you are where you're just like I don't know how to do that I'm a little anxious about that then then just pray for the church we're glad that you're here God's healing people God's ministering to people he wants to hear from you he wants you there no spectators here tonight we're all participants and so that that gives permission for the person that's not there yet to feel very actively involved in what God is doing that encounter oh yeah even though there are far more people there that are there to get ghosty if I will we and so though that's the kind of balance I'm trying to help TBC walk in right now with the hopes that eventually more and more and more of us are more comfortable hearing from an acting upon which is what I think we're seeing right now yeah so we've we've watched some of the some of the videos and and teachings and podcasts and all that stuff and you made this reference of feeling like you were a kid who gone through a divorce oh yeah and mom and dad were fighting over you there was the continuationist camp and then the the cessationist camp and really it just comes down to whether people want to in all I mean to say is I resonate with it in the sense that the academic community feels like you know they can't really quite accept that yeah because of the gifts of the Spirit and then my charismatic community that I'm a part of goes we don't really we're not to carry we're not to we're worried about you too because of your academic passion sure yeah I keep pulling people to the scripture and they're like well I don't I don't I don't think you're following the spirit here it's like you're having to write hold up yeah yeah yeah like this book it's spiritually written spiritually discerned spiritually comprehended it's the most spiritual thing word of God which is the sword of the Spirit right so when I'm approaching your elders and you're writing this stuff out did you did you write out like I say document in the same way that you did the complementarian piece yeah that that that is still in the works what we do have is a working list of definitions in regards to the term is used and that the Apostle Paul uses around their son gives in particular yeah okay so meet me and my wife by the way read the complementarian okay we wept well thank you it was I mean 10 years in the maple literally two years of hard work I was in so many rooms where I was like gosh we can't we cannot close the loop on this conversation it was but it turned out beautiful I couldn't be more pleased and I also thought it was a picture of how a plurality of elders should work to accomplish deep theology and yeah it wasn't quite the high dollar catechism everyone came in and like a try this is it that's right no it certainly was and because people's backgrounds matter and even if you're talking about continuous so like one of our elders you know East Texas guy grew up in a really kind of not healthy charismatic involvement environment so anytime we would mention something I mean he's filtering all got buzzwords yeah he's filtering all that through this and and so it's important to know we had several guys on the complementarian paper oh yeah that'd searches that you know started this conversation and went fully gal and so I mean they had PTSD almost around this subject that even to have this conversation was you know we're gonna end up baptizing cats yeah and so the the fact that you're is that where the gallant Aryans go I've got great friends who re gals and love them and they're serious about the Bible and they're serious about Jesus serious about his mission and my co-host my church are all egalitarian so yeah certainly yes so they're also baptizing cats yeah well beautiful beautiful just beautiful but I know what you meant you're saying that his context was if we're gonna give up this what else are we gonna give up and the worry of that I and I think on the on the continuation that there is such a will we be what I've seen on TV well I was gonna ask you that what do you think the biggest fear is yeah those who you said have been more on the doctrine side so I think there are a lot of concerns and I think you know the biggest concern unfortunately is that nobody wants to make a mistake which is a really terrible view of God yeah it's like a vision is a terrible view of secatur yeah so so it's men I just don't want to mess up but which is what I've been trying to combat by just going what kind of like what that's a really terrible way to view God but he's up there just waiting for us to mess up so it's faith the police is the Lord and so even if you step out you're wrong and so then you've got a you got a tease out the difference between wrong and false right so wrong you see in the book of Acts and nobody gets killed for false you've seen the Old Testament people get killed for it so it's not the same thing to be wrong it's not to be false to be false has to be deceiving and conniving to be wrong as to miss here or misinterpret something that the Lord is trying to show you and and I think you learn over time a humility to to be able to own men I probably did I made a mess yes I'm gonna clean it up yeah forgive me I apologize and but I think the fears are more confusion than it is like legit like how does this work with this it seems like two different things are being said so if you're like men get it the Devourer the Word of God be men and women of the book or write it like bleed it breathe it know it and and then walk in the power of the Spirit for whatever reason and I think it might be a tactic of the enemy that that people just have the hardest time man those two things so like here would be an example so I'm preached my sermon series this summer very little push inside the village in fact it was received very warmly but outside the village oh yeah crazy - and here's what was interesting to me for all of the Matt Chandler doesn't believe in the sufficiency of the scriptures no one handled the text not one criticism not one to bring a frequency that I believe it was Chandler's jumped the shark which was kind of a tongue-in-cheek playing word for what I hope my illustration he just roasted and not one of them said actually his interpretation of the Greek word prophesy here is wrong because another guy so I'm being accused of not believing in the sufficiency of Scripture by people who aren't using the Scriptures to challenge what I just taught from the Scriptures which is a kind of circular argument that happens when you get about and you get around the gifts it's well it's your you don't believe in the sufficiency description I'm like well I'm using the Bible to teach this show me your verse well we've got a start I'm gonna weave the story together about out these are this is a real specific season in the life of the church and and it's not a and I'm like well ok but do we see these things in the first Great Awakening I mean gosh that was friggin AdWords right I mean nobody's accusing Edwards being a flaming charismatic and yet does he not say about the Great Awakening are we talking about so when did was that it was was it just for that season then is it so you get into this kind of circular argument with people who just they just can't do it yeah and so I'm just I'm ok with people just not being able to do it I want to walk with the people who are ready to do it or are open to consider or are and and I think I find myself theologically there in most places now not trying to police evangelicalism but trying to lead faithfully this people God's given me the lead and in my understand I want robust doctrinal zeal I mean I want him to love bobak and Calvin and I want him to devour and I want him alive in the holy spirit then and and that's that's gonna be a fine I think it's gonna be a fine you see that though because when you're talking about the good to the spirit you're talking about what it does in the body it is not constantly you D thrown the superhero mentality dethrone the I'm greater than thou mentality and I watched you in American gospel write preaching God's Word points to Christ and even when you're talking about the gifts of the Spirit when so many push off into this is going to deepen your spiritual walk if you can obtain this extra thing know you're able to point it to Christ and Christ wants his church to be equipped and he has given us these gifts and key and pointing the gifts to Christ and we mentioned before the show how how they kind of shot themselves in the foot themselves in the foot I looked at your video view count the critical sermons that you've preached from the village church 6070 thousand there's some of the highest viewed sermons yeah that you've preached so these people have been making accusations about how this was so wrong and they've been pushing people to go watch the video well and that's the other thing too and I appreciate that you know and that's one of the fun things about those guys is it worked in your favor helping us yeah well and I again I understand the fear I really do I was raised in it in fact the first gosh seven eight years of my Christian life was like this is demons this is trying to lead people away from the Lord this is you know you've got the sufficient you've got the book and that's all you need is the book and you know I'm talk about that cuz you just said you used to think this way oh there was no question I mean that most the critics out there will say well he's not gonna use the scriptures at all he's gonna talk about some personal experience and that usually is the biggest biggest criticism for those who make a shift yeah but in but I mean that criticism I think is silly like when you become a Christian like you have doctrinal understanding you have an experience that the Bible informs you what just happened to you so I can tell you this when Jeff Faircloth started bringing me to church and I thought it was corny and stupid and foolish but kept wanting to go back I had no idea that was the effectual call and God drawing me to himself I learned that later from the Word of God that got calls right ragged go Romans 8 right now right so though they won't yeah yeah yeah so you know for me there there was an experience but it was an experience that discombobulated me because it seemed to run contrary to what I had been told the scripture said but I saw it bringing great glory to Jesus Christ and I saw it drawing men and women to Jesus and and I knew enough of my Bible at that point to know that that the demons don't there that's not really there yeah that's not their goal yeah their thing isn't you know let me do the work of illumination in this man's heart so that he might believe and love Jesus Christ and let me break bondage here so that men and women might love and serve and follow Jesus Christ and one of the more hostile violent places on earth so so so seen the the power of God in dishonestly in in ways that that I'd been told he doesn't work was real because that was a serious man in in regards to my love for the word of God my passion to protect those who were trying to distort it so and that's why I can have like these the the brothers and sisters not continuous but those who have a lot of aggression towards continuous right a lot of visceral and anger towards they think they're protecting God's Word they think they're protecting their motivation is incredibly motivation who is nearly pure it's like saying buddy Calvinist in the edges Calvin that's just caged yeah cessationists like they they're just really what they think is right that's true and and in so doing I think they do a lot of harm but I can be compassionate because I was one and to be fair there's a lot of there is a lot of excess in the charismatic world yeah my my first experience with the gifts was incredibly positive but my subsequent experience was abysmal like I felt pressure did speak in tongues I felt all those things a lot of I mean it's a common story yeah but there is that there is that component too which does scare people away from it it would place myself in the abuse camp yeah and they say it's that I've seen so many abuses that want to come to Thessalonians that says don't despise prophecy I go well yeah that makes sense because it's really easy when you've seen it abused enough times which is why the command has to be there yeah yeah right like well and I tell a I tell a story when I talk about the prophetic in particular that that the reason it's easy to despise prophecy is when it's done poorly it's not just God breaking up with you or it's not just the person breaking up with you it's God breaking up with you yeah it's ya told me we're just ya supposed to be together or I had a like I had a dear friend he actually is I mean he I mean crazy not this I won't even have time to explain this but God I mean just backwoods country independent baptist got slain in the spirit and I mean just never fell out never struggled with lust again became a worship leader what worked it I mean just incredible story but there was a woman that came up to him when we were in college and just said his ministry had started to grow and he said hey the Lord told me that if you don't confess and repent of this sin that he's gonna take your ministry from you and he was like well what well what what sin I'm unaware that I'm walking in sin and she just said no I mean the Lord didn't tell me but he did as clear as day told me like I almost sort of audibly that that he's gonna take your ministry from me and I mean that was crushing to him and so he fasted and he prayed and he just finally came to me weeping and I was like brother I just don't I don't think that's the heart of God man God's not gonna be like I'm gonna take it all from you unless you repent of what I'm not telling you that that's not like we know from your word that God doesn't operate that way yeah right God's not making you guess and so the you know you you you stack up three or four of those and you can despise it or men I'll tell you as a pastor of a large church only get about I get 10 dreams a week and everybody knows what we should be doing and God has told everyone initiatives we should jump on and causes we should get behind in waze's so there is a sense in which you can just like okay and roll your eyes and you know it's kind of guy I got it thank you you know let me file that down here and so I understand why people can despise it but but I've just been around both worlds enough to know they're very similar abuses and more fundamentalist views and and tighter views of how the Bible's interpreted so but those don't get all the press they're not on TV they're there they're just as common but there's not a venue for an outworking of that because most of those people go hard left and and leave what would be considered kind of historic orthodox christian faith or they just drop Church all together never come back so you even talk about how there are different teachings and there are false teachings and there are wrong teachings yeah right you say Galit Aryan wrong teaching but not I'm not gonna call this guy heretic because the exact organism you approach the gifts in the same way so it sounds like there are there's wrong gifts and then there are false gifts can you help us unpack that where where would you see boss I know that that's gonna be hard we actually dealt with the false thing and the demystifying that gifts thing yeah I'm curious to hear your take on it yes so in the if I understand your question if you're asking about in the world of the sign gifts where does where's the line between false and wrong yeah I'm not asking you know for Prague's necessary yeah but when would you say this practice is wrong I'm not asking you to name the minister but you know what I mean yeah like yeah I don't know that I could name them I mean I can certainly name though the well-known ones I can tell you the way we package it at TVC which I'm happy for the Holy Spirit to blow up at any point he he would like to blow that up in fact I've just asked him you here's the boundaries about as I've understood them David says they'd fallen in Pleasant places you expand them if they need to be expanded but I'll need help biblically if you do that I mean it'll really be disorienting but but I want all that that we can hold sure and and all and and maybe you need to strengthen our walls before I had a wise guy say sometimes the ghost won't pour out until your walls are strong enough to hold what he's boring and so sometimes I've just been praying ok strengthen our walls so I think there are some practices that I I would want to put in the in the false category I think direct words of judgment over an entire organization from an outsider I'm almost always going to put in me that I'm gonna trust that that's false yeah without any inner without any insight into what's really going out without any relationship without any I think anytime that that you're trying to manipulate a room to make the Holy Spirit show up going to put that in a false category if you if you exaggerate what God's done I want to put that in a false category and so those are three off the top of my head that I'm like yeah no I'm just I'm just gonna categorize that a little bit different way than wrong yeah so wrong is so well I'll give this example from our last encounter while we were worshiping and I don't know if I was wrong or not well I mean time will tell maybe I won't know till glory but while we're singing there's there's an introduction and then we worship sometimes a testimony somebody who had been healed or in the last case a group of men had just been back from Beirut and we're testifying to what God did in Beirut and then we spent an extended time worshiping and and I was just asking the Holy Spirit what do you up to it we're about to pray that people would be healed but is there is there something in particular you're up to tonight I was thinking of that you know when Jesus knows that the Holy Spirit was present to heal so okay is there is there an men I just I mean I just vividly thought ovary and I was like okay Lord can we heal something else I you know with your ovaries that we want to pray for your ovaries time you know I was like okay what are you so I'm just he gives you that really yeah I mean I'm just like okay so I mean I got it such a great teaching opportunities to stand up and go okay I have not gone home yet today I have got here I got here at 6:00 in the morning I have preached three sermons I have worked on a paper I have do for school and now Here I am while I was praying I saw the word Overeem head that could mean nothing but it might just mean something and and so tonight if you've got something on an assist or something like that I may be the light now come and receive prayer no matter what you're sick with but maybe a particular Lord might be up to something around ovaries so like maybe there was something maybe there wasn't I know I got to pray for several people women in particular one woman in particular can't says as soon as I said it or spelt like her right one felt like it was on fire yeah and so a group got to pray for her and so those who she have a problem that she knew about she did okay she did and you can follow up with her yeah yeah yeah so we already have kind of followed up it's still kind of lingering last but lingering but we have had full-on miraculous healing what has happened so there's a woman which he actually shared her testimony we gave her ten minutes she went about 35 but it's finally and we love you woman whole life really the entire time I've been at the village six to sixteen years brutal back pains brutal migraines so she's had multiple surgeries I want to say twenty-something surgeries she has they've just been trying to figure out what's wrong with her and and so that that was one of the nights that I received as I was praying okay Lord it was backs and insomnia and so I got up and said same thing I say Alton hey this is just me stepping out Lauren my wife who's far more gifted in this arena than I am sometimes I lord me wrestle over that and he's like you preach she'll get she actually were praying for a woman and she like she was like it's something with your trans geminal nerve and I was like no she's not so doctor yes I was like what happened the woman I mean you should have seen her face and then we pray forward like go see why no way it was crayons got it that's an ocelot able gift but Leanne she didn't want to be there that night she was in pain she had midshipmen in church in a couple months and this is per her testimony a couple Sunday nights ago and she went up and then reluctantly when I said you know back or insomnia she you got the word here yes okay so I just said hey she wouldn't believe you so much your wife it was Lauren yeah she would've been reluctant but named exact nerve and she that's right just like it's between the l2 and the helper and so Leanne received prayer felt a real burning while she was being prayed for and then as she walked out to her car afterwards her mom said hey you realize you're not you're not limping or anything you're not being super careful as you walk and then I was like oh my gosh and she did like a little shimmy and she was scheduled to have surgery that next week called and canceled the surgery and it spend one two three months and no no no as she goes back to the doctor just to get a she s just to say yeah I don't need surgery and I don't need and anytime she sees us now she does a little yeah she's been a little to do that for sixteen years and so that would be that that would be one of my favorite testimonies so far like I said another woman who who wasn't able to hold her grandchildren because of the shooting kind of debilitating pain and Lauren got to pray with her over trans general geminal nerve I can't even say it was good accidentally a transgender nerve yeah it's gonna be a whole nother whole nother issue and and so we haven't she she has been a little bit more kind of shy about her testimony but in time and then another woman who what was healed from a bad hip injury and so those have kind of been the big three although I would just say there's been just dozens and dozens of spiritual breakthroughs around depression and anxiety around insomnia was a huge one where God just did an incredible work a we prayed for throats or vocal folds one night and just had a guy walk up to me right afterwards with his wife and tears and just say I had mental to talk the last month and a half whether I am talking to you just not horse non it has this been going on for a long time or is this like within the past year no this is all within the past year now these things have been happening organically but not organizationally this is a place where organs of people within the church yes but now but now we're saying the elders are out in the back ready to pray for you members of the prayer team are around the room we want to pray for you and and so here's what we're praying we're praying for spiritual breakthrough and we're praying for physical healing and so that's the first Sunday night of every month and that was one of the spaces we wanted to create for that Sayla we learn here all the time we're constantly learning learning learning now let's sit in it and let's practice it and so encounter has been one of those things and by the way it used to be called elder led prayer we changed it to encounter switch the format people start having and it's I mean it's triple the number that it wasn't a double the number that it was let's be real Eldar led prayer doesn't sound scary doesn't it come to elder lets sinners they get a point out right so yeah it's been it's been pretty incredible and then we've done are all the villages doing this most this is mostly Flower Mound although you know basically when we decided to do multiply which is our kind of initiative to roll off our campuses there was a a move from a centralized model to a more collaborative model so it's right now it's this is what we're doing if you want to know exactly what we're doing I can send you they have sort of the freedom and all of them do nights of Prayer it might be some very comfortable yeah certainly certainly we didn't have campuses that are more comfortable than other campuses but again I'm most worried about Flower Mound in this season since that's where I live and that's where a minister and that's where I preached live and that'll be the church that I lead here in another few years just that one so so yeah we have done things like a Matt Palmer from bridge way up in Oklahoma City Sam storms is good friend of mine and Matt Palmer is kind of his right man and he is just a wonderful gift he's met with our elders and their wives he's met with our executive team and their spouses and and just had evenings where he taught and we practiced and it's been pretty profound so the elders are excited again I would say that there is a continuum around that where some are excited but nervous and and others are you know they're already kind of running like for a second hold up for you you know I talked too far down in that direction and so those are yeah I could not be happier with where things currently said who are voices that are helping you navigate these waters whether it be historical voices doctrine whether it be just friends that kind of thing so probably my the the guys closest to me right now that are our great sounding boards would be Andrew Wilson who men I just love Andrew Wilson just deep thinker theologically sound although we would we would disagree with one another in regards to complementary and pressures I see how he get he got there I just agree with them Sam storms of course is is just a gift to me those two guys in particular men that if I feel jammed up or I'm not quite sure where to go or what step to take all I'll make the call yeah yeah and I've I've genuinely enjoyed some of my forays into the charismatic community again again one of my mentors David McQueen out in Abilene he was the one that kind of started helping me understand these things earlier first one that introduced me to Jack Deere first one to kind of take me to a conference that was a legit charismatic conference and not a reformed one and so we kind of did it I'll take you to this one I'll go to that one how long ago was that oh gosh that was coming up on 20 years yeah so he David took me and our staff up to Trinity in Lubbock and Jack beer and man I remember who all of us was speaking that was 20 years ago yeah that that was when I first met Jack that was before I knew Jack yeah well you're a kid Miller how old are you know oh gosh I'm 37 see just a pop bro I think I'm very sad I was 14 when you were in the second grade so anyway so yeah that I think he could do that off the top of his head well don't sleep that could be wrong I would someone scribble it out real quick somebody comment section yeah yeah so that David I know David I've got us Abilene and hung out with him several times and he's I mean I think he's pioneered this in a Baptist Church oh yeah very much so like in a way that's that's grown the church they've been enlivened by and no credit I'm curious what advice would you give other pastors who are making that transition from continuation or well I'd say even cessationist yeah or continuationists in theory but not in practice yes who actually I'm straining yeah so I actually get this question a lot and to me it's a real hard question to answer because it's a lot like the question of yeah tell me how to love my wife well I mean there's some basic principles but the truth is I don't know your wife you know your wife and so eat each wife's a little unique and a little so I've got a friend who you know every night comes into the bedroom with the Bible just like okay maybe grab yours let's go to this passage I want to talk to you about this and I'm just the woman I'm married to that would know that though I'd be like his wife's just like oh you lead us so well I love this and be like excuse me I mean this is so so like I could see him answering this question what you need to do is at night before you guys go to bed grab your Bible and just teach her a little bit from the book and I think my wife would hit me with that book it's so mean just imagine so that's that's kind of a best practice for him and and for us it would get us in a lot of trouble I I think that kind of the the overarching kind of principles I want to give is that that the call that's been placed on my life is to love and Shepherd these people well so the people God has given me to lead they're not a problem to be solved there are people to be gently led and and so I don't want to with the gifts lose anyone that I don't have to lose now I'm saying that as the guy of a new pastors a very very large church so it means I've had to turn the ship really slowly and and I and I I think that by turning it slowly but actually turning it God's blessed us I think there's a way to go I want to move in that direction and not actually move in that direction because I was that way for a few years where I'm just like I want more of this but was afraid to teach on it was afraid to push too hard was afraid to challenge some people that I thought would be challenges to moving in that direction and so I would say there needs to be like anything else that there needs to be a prayer bathe plan to move in this direction that the Holy Spirit can blow up at any point so so here I am you know holding encounters bringing in guys to teach and train on prophecy trying to model it well from the stage both on the weekend services counter and in any other space I can get in you're doing this in your actual services well I'm very rarely in the service although I will oftentimes now get people to stand up to hold up on their hands to do something physically as a response to the proclaimed word because I think getting the body involved in invites that the spirit kind of to move and solidify we really are whole creatures we're not just spirits and so so I've done a lot of that invited people into spaces maybe they they aren't super comfortable with prayed for people in service those kinds of things I have not said anything about and you know I've seen kidneys in my head we're gonna stop the service right now and see if I got a kidney issue you know I haven't done anything like that at Norb I felt prompted to even do anything like that but but what I wanted to do in all of this is is say Holy Spirit if you want to move us faster than this you need to only pull yourself out in a way that moves it faster than this I don't want to control the process I've prayed I've considered I've thought I think this is wise but but you know so much more than me so if you want to expedite this I there are three or four people that if you fell down on right now and healed that everybody would be on board today and so my I would rather you like that temple gate then it is it is and so if you would which is which is naive right because even if even if right that they're still going to be detractors and those who are afraid so so that's still my prayer I'm just continuing to work the plan and that that I feel like the Lord's kind of laid before me to walk trusting that he'll steadily grow us in this area and and if at any moment he wants to just drop in a way that that blows that plan up and expedites everything I would just be really excited about that so we've talked a lot about okay how do we how do we get people who are going through the same experience that you're going through to say okay let's let's pull in this direction let's let's go after these things that the scripture says our Forte and for us what about the other end what about the end of guys who they have seen the gifts be abusive and they're they're trying to reel their church yeah how would you approach that process again not not the pastor that wife necessarily that's I'm illustrating but I think what's so beautiful about first Corinthians is it's addressing both right so what's really beautiful you want to preach to the book of 1st Corinthians it's coming at this from both angles yeah he says like desire is a three time brain rec yeah of gifts and he's putting the gifts in their place I mean he really is saying you're you're doing these things the wrong way I mean it's a rebuke of a super charismatic church well at the same time laying before what the gifts are actually giving for so so whether you're a continuous who wants to see the gifts more enlivened in your church you can say hey God's given us these gifts for what for the building up of the body right so then what are we to do with these things right if you've got a church that's practicing the gifts outside the balance of Scripture then once again 1st Corinthians is a beautiful gift to say hey Paul is clearly saying here that not everybody does this or that this is actually in the background not up front or right and so I I think the gift of 1st Corinthians is that if you're on the fringes and you're wanting to pull towards what I would call more holistic view of all of the gifts given to the church for the building up of the body because it's not just the sign gifts it's the person with hospitality in fact God thinks really highly of hospitality he puts it on the list of you know eldering right not tongues not prophesy hospitality so so there I mean to think about it in that way and to teach it in that way kind of pulls on both ends hopefully to what I would just think is a more holistic view of gifts in the life of the church reminds me of a conversation you and I have had yeah I wanted to toss it that way and asking you that because we've spoken about it a little bit on the series that we did together on demystifying the gifts of the Holy Spirit but this idea that the the charismatic movement some of the abuses there are seek the the gift not the giver right and we unpacked some of you know what I want you to take a stab at that because that's know do it man because because that's that's that is a thing that I think we can't abuse so I was told that when I was when I didn't grow up in a charismatic environment even grow up in a Christian environment I was Jewish yeah so my my introduction to the gifts was was unorthodox it was me and God and I had word the Box anyway yeah you know I started investigating the gifts of the Spirit my main ambition when I got into this stuff was really evangelism I wanted you know I wanted to know what it looked like for the the guy at the temple gate in 3000-4000 come to know Jesus in Haeundae so as a young life leader that's what I was pursuing like okay how did the gifts help with evangelism but right off the bat I was told seek the giver not the gifts and my when I started actually having experiences with the gifts I realized how good the giver was and so and then then I started looking in scriptures to see do you see that anywhere in the scriptures because that's a very often quoted phrase and what I found was just the opposite you know Matthew 7 and Luke 11 you're gonna see the same things said but then the word gets changed so ask and receive so you can find knocked it'll be open if any of you has a son who asked for a piece of bread you're not gonna throw him a stone if he asks for an egg you're not gonna throw him a scorpion if you then being evil know how to give good gifts to your children how much more will the Father in Heaven give good gifts to those who ask so in one of those I can't remember if it's Luke or Matthew but Matthew 7 look 11 you can check it for me and one of them he says give good gifts and the other says give the Holy Spirit so to have one is to have the other and then you've also got first Corinthians 12 where he says the manifestations of the Spirit so instead of using the word gifts uses word this is how the Spirit makes himself known this is how he manifest and he does that through the gift so it really is a not necessarily a very helpful way to phrase things and I get them in tality behind it is you know we want you to know Jesus them not just the things he gives you yep so and I'm all for that yeah I found experientially and scripturally that to experience his gifts really is to experience him yeah so - - on fact that further maybe it maybe even let you tether onto the back end of that when talking about the gifts of the Spirit that the second blessing approach to those gifts is this a secondary experience that oh I've come to salvation and now I'm going to be endued with power from on high or visiting a moment of Terry in your prayer closet for twenty years yeah finally get it I heard a sermon once from a guy who's like you know received the five six twelve baptism I forget how many yeah the anointing the the the boldness the fire the you know I mean just so obviously he can see where I stand on it I think upon regenerates a heart is made alive were sealed with the Holy Spirit the the fullness of the Spirit is gonna work itself in us and through us and out of us yeah from here to glory and so I think there's a way of greater faithfulness and obedience there's greater awareness of his presence and power there's greater experiences but but I I'm I'm not a well let's get baptized in the Holy Spirit again let me give you guys I think that that everyone's from all the spirit fires off and like Lloyd Jones who I think is a second baptism guy says the circuits blow and so I think that I've had plenty of experiences not not a second you just define them differed about forty of them yeah where I could just sure feel that the temperatures is hotter than usual there's more power than usual here in preaching and praying and doing ministry that that there's a gear that is shifted here that I didn't shift but I can feel now I'm operating in that fourth or fifth gear in a way that I normally just operate in that third then so I understand that to be the Spirit of God dwelling inside of me yeah and the the volume just got turned up and I didn't turn that volume up the Lord in his in his Providence knew in this moment you're gonna I'm gonna what I'm wanting to do through you it's your giftedness isn't gonna I'm gonna need to do something here that's beyond what you're normally able to do and I'm gonna let you feel it you're gonna love it and you're gonna know I did it and you didn't yeah and so I love those moments when I can get in my car and go wow like I can't if I had to go do that again I could not do that no matter how good I feel how much sleep I've gone no matter how much rest I've walked in no matter what my quiet I could not do that again hey if I if I restrain a and did it again I would not be able to do what I just did in there that was the power of the Holy Spirit yeah and and that that can be addicting and going back to what you're talking about so then you want to position yourself in those places where I'm gonna take this step of faith and if I look like a fool I look like a fool but what God did that time and me I want him to do it again I don't want to stop caring about your available Tamia as often as it'll be available to me and and then I think all of us would say gosh we wish it would be more often than it is and and I think you the more you love veil yourself to that the more often it comes and the less you avail yourself to it the less often it comes and then and I mean that's tied up in faith and so and I'm actually quoting someone who they would not like the fact that I'm quoting them so to quote John MacArthur honey man yeah get all Johnny Mack the idea of I think it's Ephesians 5 do not be drunk with wine it's dissipation but be filled with the holy spirit be being fill the past present participle this active he talks about how it's it's not the Smith Wigglesworth keep failing the cup because we leak but it's more of a filling the sails of a ship being constantly propelled so these second third fourth fifth what what we in the charismatic Pentecostal realm would phrase as another baptism you would phrase if I'm hearing you correctly you will filling yes that God has a mission it's a co mission he's partnering with us and he is empowering that as we need that's exactly how I would I would define it okay so second second leading a question is I know it's kind of hard to figure out why Luke is putting some of these stories in and the way that they're being awarded the way there were did we see the different baptisms that are poured out do you think that this is an expression of God got explaining to his people that the Jews are called of God the Samaritans these almost half breed of Jew Gentile they're called of God in the Gentiles or yeah and that these baptism moments are - they're sending a bigger message there it's certainly an overarching I certainly think what God is man that is expanding the imaginations of his chosen people yeah who just could never seem to get God's heart for the nation's no I mean just never could seem to get it through I made it all about themselves rather than a system despite even if you think exodus look I'm gonna place you you're being like the world is right and you will be for me what a kingdom of priests Yeah right I'm just I'm gonna put you right of the rest of the income of the known world and you're gonna be a picture of life surrender to me the Creator God you're gonna be a kingdom of priests that shows draws in the nation's to the manifold wisdom of God walk or some calling Paul now in Ephesians not Moses and Exodus but but God's plan has always been let me set you up as a kingdom of priests and and they constantly said great we're the kingdom he's like okay but you're gonna be for me a kingdom of priests we got it yeah we're the kingdom it's all it's all us Jerusalem New Jerusalem we have the kingdom of God it got it yeah you're gonna be for me salt and like no we heard you we heard you we we're the thing right and so then so Jesus is confronting this so violently and how he does ministry but like - I mean when Jesus is talking about the the Samaritan man that helps the man I mean just think how offensive oh yeah that would have been or the the first I am statement in John goes to this threefold loser of a woman at a well in the middle of the day I mean she finds out he's the Christ before Nicodemus before the disciples before so he doesn't give it to the disciples as kind of a since you guys are gonna follow me let me tell you what's really going on here he doesn't give it to Nicodemus who's this ruling official a high up in the Pharisaic system he tells this adulterous woman at the well I am he I mean if that doesn't kind of explode categories I mean Jesus just constantly confront and they still don't get it and then he he sells him as he's ascending I mean he was trying to get my head around just go go and then in drew they don't go they stay in Jerusalem until Stevens martyred and then as they go they're only sharing the gospel with other Jews they still won't even sell you share the gospel with Gentiles as God drives them out of Jerusalem to Jerusalem area and all right then and so these baptisms in particular are about God going let me show you that the spirit is here that the kingdom is here and and it's breaking through as Paul writes in chapter 2 of Ephesians these walls have hostility yeah so it's so big it is yes it is so and it's bigger than Cornelius and his household and it's bigger than that right you need be thoughtful about how you speak about my people Matt come on now yeah just you guys got a little cocky Lord handled his business cuz you guys are his business yeah he grabbed it off anyway so so okay last one cuz and I'm wrapping up on time here but one that I've always wrestled with with the this that second blessing that I was raised and the hardest one for me is Samaria Philip goes he preaches they received the gospel they believe and then according Simon the sorcerer he sees something that is imparted to them through the laying on of hands and he's like I want that look I'm ready that to me pay this out obviously that's talking about the wickedness of his heart but there was something deposited that was other than salvation at that moment how do you wrestle with that you explain that well I don't I don't know that I've got so my thoughts are you see something similar happening when Paul gets to Ephesus and there's a group there who were followers of the way who had John's baptism yeah but had not been filled with the spirit and so if you look back john's baptism is one of repentance one of turning back to the law so so there's a kind of renewal that that's not holy spirit empowered its white-knuckled we're gonna do what's right and pleasing to God let's hear the same it's what the people have God have been trying to do throughout the whole Old Testament we know what's right and good we're gonna do what's right and good we're gonna praise you because your ways lead to life we're gonna live those ways and then Paul comes and goes well what is this what baptism have you had John's baptism okay come here there's there's a new baptism there's a renewal of heart the law is now gonna be written on your heart because that's what the Holy Spirit does so so I kind of put it in that same category where where there's a way of repenting and turning back to God that's not salvation it's I think Paul would even say there's a difference between worldly sorrow and godly sorrow right yeah there's a kind of hate that I do this I can see in my life that this leader this led to a lot of brokenness I hate the consequences of my actions let me turn back because there's this God that's gonna bless me if I do the things that please him so let me do the things that please him again and there's this gosh there's even a water baptism for that right and challenge baptism and and yet the the way God is now baptizing us is in his Holy Spirit yeah and and I think that spirit baptism regeneration conversion is now the law written in my heart that has me going I want to do your Will O Lord in a way that's not let me white-knuckle this but out of affection for you saving me for you giving me new life let me now live to you and freedom from bondage to sin and shame and death and now empowered by your Holy Spirit to choose what is beautiful to choose what is lovely to choose what is right so I've always thought about it in those ways okay so again I'm one clarifying question Center we got to wrap up because I you know how people like to take little clip it's of what you say and rerun it so I just want to clarify this for everybody when you said that you see a likening of the Ephesian group of believers who had accepted a law are you see are you saying that Philip preached a gospel that was not Christ crucified repent turn believe yes that would be that would be conjecture gotcha whatever they received they received on those grounds understood so I cuz I think you could have preached the same go so what is a proclaimer of the gospel I cannot control what is heard I can only control what I say hmm and so it is not uncommon for people to say to me well you said so like a perfect example would be in the Apostles Creed when when I talk to it about descending into hell I was talking about some different ways that that's historically been interpreted and here's what we know from the text a lot of this is conjecture this is a Creed it's not the scriptures but it is tied to what the early church believed so I walked through all of that then and had a family send me a long email about how they were leaving the church and they were so disappointed that I don't believe that hell existed whoa that's a hugely so I went okay I know we're in that 52 minute sermon did I ever say you're preaching the Anopheles yes that's a church news yeah so but okay so they heard for whatever reason something now they didn't sure once I email back I'm like I'm not sure what you thought you heard me say but I just a misunderstanding on the Zohar but so experiential yeah it's very possible that Philip preached the the full beauty of the gospel and and like in the church that I pastor people hear it and still go okay let me work harder this might think I'm going don't it's not about working harder I heard okay I got you no never again bootstrap that's right yeah and so so it's so it's very possible yeah the did Phillips preaching in fact I would almost say likely that he's preaching the full count right I would also yeah but but that doesn't mean that's what they heard if you think about how steeped they are in the law which the people were trying to call up out of moralistic deism they're not even steeped in the wall yeah I mean I don't know the book half as well as the Jews in the first century would have known the Torah yeah and yet they are they are stuck yeah people I'm trying to call out of it are stuck but that's our humanity drivers that aleus yeah and that's yeah yeah so many tangents anyway so we are wrapping up she's got a few moments left in the show for those of you who are watching thank you so much for tuning in this week to remnant radio you can watch us every single Monday 9:00 8:30 p.m. Central Standard Time we've interviewed tons of pastors and teachers wayne grudem was just on craig keener was just on we've had Michael Brown Michael Heizer tons of pastors teachers theologians to unpack some of these topics we've been going through miracle signs and wonders us episodes we are unpacking some of the ecclesiology of how the church operates here in the next couple of weeks and months so if you're if you're thinking man these guys sound like one-trick ponies it's because we're really trying to drill down into this gifts of the Spirit bet and hear other voices and opinions so we're gonna get into some ecclesiology up in the next season but if you want more resources on this topic shoot over to our website to be remnant radio.com and you can find more information there Matt's an honor to have you oh man I've been blessed to so fun it's been a good night yeah thank you so much Miller same thing anytime always Miller you'll have a blessed one see you next time this episode is brought to you in part behind the fellowship Network are you looking to start a Christian nonprofit emissions organization or maybe a group that needs tax-free status for ministry purposes well the fellowship network is here for you for over 50 years they've been 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Channel: The Remnant Radio

Views: 26,860

Rating: 4.8531318 out of 5

Keywords: matt chandler, the village church, spiritual gifts, gifts of the spirit, matt chandler interview, matt chandler spiritual gifts, matt chandler gifts of the spirit, village church, matt chandler podcast, matt chandler prophecy, matt chandler prophecy pirates, matt chandler tongues, matt chandler healing, remnant radio, The Remnant Radio

Id: v8cvB_Iuvwg

Length: 60min 55sec (3655 seconds)

Published: Mon Mar 18 2019