Commending Christ, Q & A - John Piper, Mark Dever, Matt Chandler, and Michael Oh

or we thank you every opportunity we have together to consider your truth to consider the gospel and implications of it we thank you for the teaching that we've received these last few days we thank you for the fellowship we pray now that by your spirit you would give us an understanding of you and your word that will aid us and being those that you desire us to be as we go from here use this time we pray in Jesus name Amen okay well we'd like to start off with a question for Michael and that would just be to tell us more about Christ Bible seminary in about two minutes it's all right well general pattern that we have especially in Japan but also all around the world is that churches are the way that they are because the pastors are the way they are pastors are the way they are because they've been trained to be that way of seminary and or good or bad in Japan that is the pattern and there is a tremendous need to counteract and to push against great great legalism in the church great great love greater love for traditionalism and traditions than the gospel itself and people and God and our seminary exists to buck those trends to return grace to the classroom to return grace to the lives of pastors and to return grace to the Church of Jesus Christ in Japan and to plant churches like that and it's slow it takes time and it takes a generation or two generations or three generations but we're in it for the long haul and we've been blessed by the students that the Lord has brought to our door we feel it a privilege and a stewardship to love them well and to model in our relationships and our prayers together in how we love their families in how we train them and and disciple them to to do all in grapes and in the gospel and I love them and I'm happy to have one of our students here from Japan Kent good so do you teach your Old Testament there yes we do or do you personally I do not I do not to tell you I used to do I actually try to teach as little as possible because because we're trying to you know get get get be this huge ship out of the harbor and I think my gifts perhaps lie more in leadership areas and in the vision casting and in the training of these wonderful men and leaders who the Lord has given to me both in our team our faculty our staff and students than always in the classroom but I teach mainly the areas where I will teach is church history and I'll teach some theology and I also teach a foundational course that every student of ours takes called personal holiness where we talk about curative and suffering and prayer fasting excellent good mark a question for you please define the gospel in 60 seconds or less there is one God he made us he made us in His image he made us good we've sinned against him but we fallen God would be just that good to judge us eternally but in his amazing long eternal son of God has taken on flesh been incarnate Jesus Christ fully man fully God lived the life we should have lived but perfectly died on the cross in the place of the sins in the place of everyone who will repent of their sins and trust him and God raised him from the dead he ascended into heaven he will return in the same manner and he calls us to repent of our sins and trust on him and He will give us new life people fill us the Holy Spirit give us the new birth and adopt us as his reconciled children forever amen amen we want to go right down the panel I want to go right down the panel here starting with John and the question came in what do the other panelists what do the other speakers think about Mark's admonition that we preach the gospel in every sermon that we preach John I don't say that in every servant but rising increasingly in my own understanding of how the gospel relates to everything is the desire to make everything pervasively gospel oriented so I'm fudging I don't yet feel obliged as a steady-state pastor who speaks week in and week out to say it all those pieces every Sunday I want to point to Christ every message and I want there to be enough of it in the hymns and in the service so that everybody knows I'm moving towards Jesus I'm moving towards the cross as the foundation and the solution for everything but I don't I don't operate as I write a sermon I have to get that whole piece into every every message or into every Bible study I lead or into every page of every book it's just not that clear for me so that that is obligatory so that's how what I feel and what I think about it yeah I think we I would land at the same spot where it's good it's going to be Christocentric it's going to mention the cross and it's going to contrast what I'm saying from from what religion is and what the gospel is and so I think that's the that's the piece I'm looking for how do i distinguish particularly in my context how do i distinguish this from what Christian Smith called Christian moralistic therapeutic deism and the gospel like how do i distinguish this message knowing that the bulk of my ears are going to hear it through this lens and so I think that's yes but certain pieces of it and always to try to distinguish between religion in the gospel look I think for us in Japan we have and for us in terms of our church planting efforts through all nations fellowship we have we have expectation and and hope and anticipation and actualization of non Christians coming every week and almost non-christians new non-christians coming every week so in that sense I think we certainly have it as an aim and as something that's in the forefront of our minds our prayers our development to have the gospel preached every single week and of course for the the Christians who are there we feel strongly as well that it's it's the Gospel message that is needed not merely at the point of conversion and for our salvation but throughout the continued sanctification of our lives so I would say we have it as a goal a hope and we aim towards that in our in our ministry very good let's follow up on that and this was directed to to you Matt talk a little bit about the believers need to hear the gospel one person phrased it this way our Sunday mornings mainly for believers or for unbelievers another person phrased it this way is the message proclaimed to the unregenerate sheep the same as the message proclaimed to the regenerate sheep I think it is I think you see it in Romans 1 where you you you see Paul seen eagerly desired to preach the gospel to you well he's talking to the church the letters to the church to barbarian to Greek I want to preach the gospel to you and so I think a piece of progressive sanctification is understanding the atonement understanding that I in this moment and in a wicked sinner redeemed by the blood of Christ and to understand both of those now today that I'm not just oh I'm I'm all just redeemed or Jenna yes yes I am but I'm still a wicked center in need of the mercy of Christ in need of the blood of Christ in need of the cross of Christ that never it this way there's never a point where we lean against the cross of Christ there's just never that point we lean against it and we go honey go you guys should come it's a constant bowing before in saying there's room there's room and and so I think I don't know how to answer is the gospel presentation on a Sunday morning for those who are regenerate or those who are unretire the answer is yes I think the answer is yes it is the gospel message is for those who are perishing and those who are saved anyone else want to jump in on that one mark well in my sermons I mean sometimes it sounds like that little 60-second thing I just did but often they'll be parts of it at different places because I'm just engaging with the Christians in a non-christian so I have an application grid now sometimes they would point to make sure to talk about man here sinfulness and point for then include the rest of the story or something so and I think when you expand the treatment of the gospel I got yeah that's what we Christians rejoice in and that's what gives us hope that's why the Lord has weekly meetings for us the beginning of every week we begin by reminding ourselves we meet on Sunday morning the Lord Jesus rose from the dead on Sunday morning we begin by tithing our time we begin by reminding ourselves of our identity by washing ourselves in the gospel so yes the Christians very much need to hear the gospel I want to do that more than anything else when I am Assembly with Christians the first thing of the week amen amen very helpful John question for you and let's go ahead and just I guess get this one out of the way this came up is several times phrase many different ways and the question kind of goes like this in packers evangelism and the sovereignty of God he defines antinomy as quote an appearance of contradiction between conclusions which seem equally logical reasonable or necessary is the relationship but when the sovereignty of God and the responsibility of man quote inexplicable to our finite minds how is it that we are calling people to repent of their sin and yet it is God who must grant them repentance well the last part is not inexplicable to me the more theoretical piece about human accountability and view of divine sovereignty may be something to see it coming about those to me when Jesus stands in front of the tomb of Lazarus and says Lazarus come forth to a dead man and he comes that's not next victim because his word created the life command what thou wilt and grant what thou commandest this is not inexplicable this is explicable you're talking to dead people they need to live you are to call them live and when the Holy Spirit is at work in your life and you command the dead to live they live that's not inexplicable it's just miraculous so my issue there is not like mo this is a fog come here mystery hangs over why you would call dead people to do things you call dead people do things because the Word of God is powerful and creates life now the first way you ask the question is it an antenna me or a contradiction or humanly inexplicable how God can be absolutely sovereign over all human decisions and those decisions still be responsible accountable decisions I think that is the one for me anyway for which I don't have an ultimate answer because it really boils down to how did the first sin happen which is for me the hardest question of all I don't know how the first didn't happen I don't know why Lucifer created as a perfectly good being would sin and to put the name freewheel on it it's just a name it doesn't providing the explanatory power it doesn't work for me so I have no no final explanation so at that level the antenna me that Packer talks about between humans being held accountable for their actions which they absolutely in the Bible clearly are and God being ultimately decisively in control of all of those decisions those are two truths in the Bible I would die for either one of them I don't solve that problem with freewill it works it doesn't provide any explanatory help to me at all nor do I find it taught in the Bible I'm willing to just live with that mystery and say let's make sure we lift him up as really sovereign really totally in control let's make sure we call people to account to do what they're called upon to do and let's live with all the biblical teaching in the middle that we're dead in our trespasses and sins and the natural man cannot please God and therefore speak to the dead with divine authority that they must live and believe and obey or perish okay mark question for you talk a little bit about the great problem as Scott calls it of the invisibility of God how the outworking of faith through the local church in the world seems to be Jesus's most basic evangelism plan a couple related questions to that came in is Matthew 28 given to the church or individuals the lack of New Testament admonition and rebuke for not doing personal evangelism elaborate on that I don't know that how much more sound up and I said in whichever talking I address that in first Peter 3 the sciples evangelizing when they scatter all we went preached we don't see that that's limited after the persecution in Jerusalem just to the apostles so I think that the church as a whole just speaking sort of systematically theology theologically over Scripture the church as a whole is clearly acting as a witness and that's what I tried to put together last night biblically and then giving practical examples you know as far as who the Great Commission was given to it's given obviously an immediate sense to the disciples the Apostles but then when you look and you see how that's applied in the book of Acts the Christians beyond the Apostles clearly understood it as something that they themselves would have continued to fulfill and thus Christianity continued to grow and then when Peter writes in first Peter 3 that we're to be ready to give the reason for the hope that we have to anyone who asks us that may sound a little bit more passive but that still shows that absolutely every Christian has that kind of responsibility so and then you can get to further out things which I did actually Luke 6 about the overflow of our hearts of being what shapes our mouths so I think I think it may be a more implicit command than we sometimes presented as either if you take the Great Commission out of it but I think there's no way around saying that every Christian has the obligation to and the opportunity and the responsibility in the privilege to share the good news of what God has done in Christ will do it differently according to what how the Lord has gifted us and what responsibilities he hands to us in our lives so a pastor is going to one kind of responsibility you know others others but there's no way I think biblically we can responsibly say that all Christians aren't obliged to participate in that may I ask a follow-up question then is there ever a sense in where because of my lack of personal evangelism that someone's blood is on my hands we think of the text that talks about the Watchmen on the wall who was not a good watchman I think the answer that has to yes but because Christ has borne all of our sins I don't know how that plays out in eternity I got nothing else on that all right John because of Christ's blood we don't know how it plays out I don't understand that says well it's cleared the New Testament their rewards talked about right but all of our status were there because of God's grace in Christ so when when I'm told in Hebrews 13 that I'm accountable for the members of my congregation as an elder I believe that I believe it fervently not entirely sure what it mean but I believe it you know James 3:1 tells us that teachers will be held accountable to a stricter judgment well I believe that I don't know exactly kind of what that looks like on the fourth Thursday in heaven you know what I'm there but boy I believe it and it has a weight in my soul so on the you know the question of the blood on our hands you know I look at the watchman passage in Ezekiel and I think yeah pastors are analogous positions and a secondary analogy and I think would be Christians you know the gospel sharing it or not sharing it with others but then on the other hand we Christians sin and we have a Savior he has reconciled us to God by forgiving us for our sins taking the punishment for us and so I know that my status before God is as a fully love that adopted son reconciled to God completely so then what it means that there are rewards and maybe stricter judgment and I don't understand I think maybe I believe it I think that maybe at root there and I want to go to this is this issue of motivation for doing evangelism what I think underlies that question is this sense of fear I'm afraid or maybe love for the lost or disobedience to God missions happens because worship doesn't there's a motivational element let's just talk and jump in as you want to you hit on it and I think your your first talk just let's just go over motivations may be a triage of motivations for doing personal evangelism just simply obedience love for the lost and love of the Lord you really suggested more as you went home and right especially the way you ended namely that there is a lot of joy in heaven and if it's joy in heaven we surely one wouldn't be out sync with the Angels would we and so we should be happy and if we're happy when people get saved then we'd sure want to maximize that happiness and and there are a few things I mean I pray for myself for my children and my church that they would not miss out on the joy of leading someone to Christ my guess is that most of the brothers in this room had probably not personally walked anybody into the kingdom in a long time I haven't for some time people get saved as I preach they tell me about it months later that's a little different it's rewarding it's gratifying but to walk somebody like you've described there is a sweetness to that personal arm-in-arm movement from darkness to light that very many pastors don't experience for long stretches of time and it is sweet it's just powerful my daddy was an evangelist when I asked him the question year before he died what's what's the key to joy in the church unhesitatingly soul-winning it's because he knew what had made him tick for 50 years and why he was the most amazingly happy man I've known he was constantly experiencing saving grace flowing through his life into the life others and miracles were happening in other people's so joy you hit at the end and it when we went home after your first talk we kind of leaned over to each other and said number four he's going to get to number four in me like joy well there that was yes Scott what else we have all right well that was that was somewhat of the motivation question let's go to the methods question no no motivation you weak Mort I don't I think the only one that but I think it falls it I think they're broad categories so I think you can go subcategories now but I think they're the four are covered so we can start breaking it down in the sub quarries here and go okay I want to be the leader that God's called me to be for the church to model for the church he asked me to lead that we should do but that now we're under obedience now we're under so I think what we have left now that these kind of broad strokes have been painted is sub categories I guess we can do that but I think the things in my mind are filed under obedience they're filed under joy they're filed under these kind of larger headings these larger fruits I mean on the desire to glorify God I really do think it's amazing this is a way we can bring God glory now that we can't in heaven so that does add a special sort of you know zip in the step to make sure you're taking up these valuable opportunities when you're given them because we won't have those intercalating and and we don't we need to say love here and where I get the most convicted is when I measure the emotional of desire I have for my children to be saved compared to my neighbours why is that and for whatever reason I'm so knit together I'm just so one that the thought of them being lost is sometimes almost unbearable and then I ask why why not for for Bob and David next door one point one uh and so I just I pray that what would I say I want to pursue my joy it's really my joy in their joy and the absence of longing for their joy is a deeply convicting thing and I think all of us pastors should just be on our face that Jesus teaching about the 99 and the one it's a very sobering parable yet these ninety-nine folks here we're so happy about them and there goes one off one of those first Timothy 4:1 people who quit believing or we're never believing and they're gone and how to feel about that that sheep and just measure that by the closest people you have that you really care about and whether it's something similar and then ask God to change my heart love that love peace is one I'm just always anxious to grow in then let's go to the the many questions that came in on methods methodology that type of thing so let me set it up this way and I think I'd like to pair the answer here with Mark and with Michael then I've got another pair of questions for Matt and for John what's the place mark of methodology and programs for evangelism for example way of the master evangelism explosion door-to-door evangelism Mich evangelism bikers for Jesus hunters for Jesus that type of thing does God is it somewhat of a God can use any method and he chooses to you some more than others are there methods that should be off limits because they alter the nature or character of the gospel message talk to us about methodology a little bit well I think answer all the questions you asked yes so so elaborate certainly there are different methodologies certainly any of those that contain the gospel we can use certainly some are better than others certainly there's some we should not use because they distort the message so I think things like some of the programs you mentioned well so for example well no don't do that I think some of I think some of them I think some of the programs that you mentioned I will happily use and would use them as tools so I don't care that our congregation all knows one tool to use I actually prefer them knowing and using different tools I would rather equipment several different ways so people see that the tool is at the point it's the message that you're communicating but then I I think that if we can equip them well with those then the opportunities are just laying on there all over the place in their lives or and especially organized events so while I think the homogeneous unit principle is absolutely terrible for a church and really cuts across Scripture that this idea that everyone in church should be a part of the same demographic group because that's most naturally attractive to non-christians of that same demographic group I think in terms of evangelism that's fine in terms of if you wanna have a bikers for Jesus things super it's not your church but if you're trying to reach people that way or people born on Thursdays that's fine I mean whatever works you know in terms of getting people together getting a non-christian to identify with you on on on sinful basis you know you know to join together your vices liars you know you know any way that we can tell the gospel to people all right for Evangeline John's willing to lie but you gather all the Liars together they a good group to talk well we're here I mean you know I I what I loved your rose story that was so good you know I want Jesus died for that rose that's great anyway so it's good yeah I think we want to give you swimmy a line was sort of okay but no differently than you call me wonderful excellent so I think we want to use those natural affinities the Lord has given us but that's not the mature church that's a way we have to make friends with a non-christian a lot of knowing Jesus okay Michael would you talk a little bit about methodology in your ministry context in Japan Japan is that stuff is stuff field it's a tough place you name the methodology it has failed in Japan so I think the clearest message to that is that methodology is not the answer it's not the answer it's the substance behind the methodology it's the substance of what what is that methodology delivering and like MRSA AMA yes on on most methodologies there's no one size that fits all our ministry is targeting young people the younger generation which is an unreached people group within an unreached people group in Japan and our methodology is nothing unique it would be seen as just very common in many places around the world but it's the substance I think that we are hoping to focus well and present well and be well in the ministry and we're finding that the substance is really what is delivering so I won't waste our time I think even talking about the ver methodologies alright pair questions now for Matt and John along those lines Matt the question for you now what is the connection between a gospel that is in fact relevant for all people at all times and the need to contextualize that gospel message for specific people you're trying to reach will be a follow-up question for John related to Whitfield in that regard but to talk about your context you said the gospel is relevant it is what does it mean then to break that down for your people well my context is doubts fourth area highly churched large churches you can see some of the churches in Dallas from here it I mean 150 million dollar two hundred million dollar in one Church in town just started 250 million dollar we're in Minnesota so you really can yeah you look south so my the context that I find my life playing out in is is one in which the bulk of people not all people but the bulk of people have some understanding of who Jesus is so I used the phrase inoculated it's been my experience that the bulk of people have enough of Jesus to feel like they don't need him or that they understand him enough so they turn you off easy so what would I here's how it contextualize just beyond me I will constantly contrast the difference between the gospel and religion constantly if you listen to me on podcast if you listen I constantly want to go this is the gospel this is not the gospel this is not the teaching of Christ this is morality this is religion this methodology is religious this methodology is gospel driven this and so how I can textual eyes the gospel in my setting is to constantly contrast it with I don't want to call it evangelicalism but that tends to be what I call it I want to in my setting say this is probably what you grew up with this is why it's not true because what Jesus just said here and so that's how I'm contextualizing the gospel where is like I look at other dear friends of mine like Driscoll and I have an ongoing argument who has a harder job him trying to claim the gospel in a completely secular society or me trying to pretend the gospel in the society where everybody feels like they already know the gospel despite the fact that they don't know the gospel and I've had the most gut-wrenching experiences of in another church being a part of their baptism service just saying hey would you help us baptized were baptized and being in the water with a girl that says I want to be baptized my mom's sick and me having to go well ok there's about to get really awkward cuz I'm I'm out of the water I'm not baptizing alright so yeah I'm getting baptized I love I love Jesus my mom's sick I mean needed but baptized with my mom said ok ok this is a prophet I mean this is a problem so that's what contextualization looks like for me I need to contrast religion with the gospel and at times I need a contrast secular thought with the gospel but but the bulk of the people out in the crowd for us are D churched which means they grew up in church and they started seeing some of the weird hypocrisy in it or how it didn't add up or have them make sense or how it didn't and they walked away and now for whatever reason they're they're coming back or friends are drawing them in but even those friends at church experience even people who've never professed Christ have had some church experience and so we get our I tell you when I I smile I smile when just the absolute last time we baptized we we had a guy that got in the water it was just grew up an atheist his whole life and I was like thank you Jesus for that that was just a little gift for me a real life imagine from from Christ you know here there sleep well and and a witch and I mean I was I was beaming I mean I had music up on the way home like pagans yes alright versus just get into whoa hey I grew up in church my whole life you know I thought this is what it was this isn't what it is this is what I come professing Christ as my Lord say for the first time despite the fact that I had everyone in Michael to be Smiths albums so that that that's how I contextualize it okay excellent so John working with context a little bit and a little bit back to methodology trying to pull these together in a Whitefield question was it just a different day and age in which issues of contextualization preaching in the UK preaching in America you just preached if you're an itinerant evangelist like that if you were in that type of ministry that's one question related to it though would be the fact that it seems that Whitefield kind of pioneered the use of newspapers in his day promoting his meetings promoting his schedule can you comment on how churches or pastors should use advertising and means of technology to promote their ministries promote their church what is the question was what does BBC do in that regard to reach the community yeah the where I ended on the paradoxes the conundrums the riddles the contradictions of the good and evil is something I've learned in large measure besides from life by reading Mark Knoll in his in his historical work because Mark is a believers in evangelical and he he's probably the most foremost historical church historical scholar in America today and that's his conclusion of every book that it's ambiguous so in regard to this issue Whitfield is responsible for most of the problems in the world today he's responsible for the emergent church and his response for seeker-sensitive and is responsible for TB evangelism and he's responsible for the weird use of everything because he broke through in the modern era just kind of on the way out of of the old world to the new world he broke through and began became the first actor preacher entertainment preacher media savvy preacher because of newspapers and letters and publication of journal and I mean if you read stout stout says all these things on he says them cynically and it would would I would rather read no writing that biography he would say them and be sober about them he wouldn't have a snide attitude about it but if you can navigate your way through the cynicism and the snide miss there is truth there and so yes to Whitfield's alertness to sending somebody ahead to make sure they know he's coming and putting things in newspapers and publishing journals and using the latest transportation like horses and buggies and ships to get to where he needs to be and forging an international coalition from Scotland to England to New England so that this thing has some staying power and we usually think of Whitfield was the one who had all the organizational savvy but Whitfield was operating I mean a Western is operating desta what you usually think of Wesley as having all the savvy because he organized all these small groups and became the head of a denomination in which field said I could put my name on anything but he did the organs organizing he moved around among pastors and and leaders and I think all of that is was right to him to do I mean he broke out of the churches he that was it was inflammatory that he preached in public and not in in churches and it seemed to undermine and it gave rise to modern parachurch evangelicalism which is the problem and in a gift everything is ambiguous everything everything you look at is good is also bad except the Bible and Jesus everything and so no no everything should be corrected that gendler's way of doing it to be corrected my way your way everybody needs correction and we're just constantly navigating our way through ambiguities in life and so I want to say yes to - what - what he did as far as what works then you couldn't do what he did today I don't think if you went down down here and put up your little stage and started preaching everybody call you wacko and and 20 people would gather around and make fun of you and God was at work in the 18th century God came down he came down on Wesley he came down on Whitfield on edwards on the tenants on the earth skins and these guys had a movement that God did you can't make that happen and then when it when it starts to happen you just try to humble yourself and be obedient to it and then of course he had all these phenomenal gifts and for whatever reason God blessed and and he's doing it today in me this this is a this is a phenomenon and doing that seminary is strange and weird and and Marx kind of Foursquare Church way of doing it there and is just phenomenal I mean God's that's we're going to use that as a 9 March program thank you John just an unbelievable haven't you isn't it incredible I don't know what I don't really know what your question is asking I'm just tell me when to stop but the the reformed thing you got Seattle you got Denton Highland Village you got RC Sproule you get Alister big you got cap Capital Hill you've got Sovereign Grace Ministries I remember when I first met Mark Driscoll I said you know this kind of looks a lot like a little hipper Sovereign Grace and who II never even heard of CJ Mohini and Sovereign Grace so so these these two an interesting reformed charismatic deal over here and this kind of reform hip Seattle thing over here and what is that well in the world so nobody's organizing this nobody's managing this there's just a lot of unusual Whitfield Ian release of energy and relevant ways of talking today that I just kind of stand back and say hi CJ one time and they'll stop I promise I CJ one time CJ Mohini I said so I described about 15 of these streams that I see I said so do you think that anybody should try to make that into a river they said oh yeah yeah we and I think that's kind of like what you know together for the gospel is and I said well I don't have a gift and so if you want to try that you can but I'm just watching enjoying and doing my little Bella in Baptist effort here so I I doubt that that will will ever happen or should happen that you try to find out all the outcroppings of the movement of God's renewing Spirit in our day and get them all together in a room and make it a thing that God is doing it and we'd probably mess it up if everybody should just love each other and just do real well what is my sins all right in the time that remains we've got we got two more big sets of questions to talk about and then a few smaller ones if we can if we can get through so a lot of questions on this particular topic mark you wrote in your book the gospel and personal evangelism you wrote a gospel that does not offend has not been understood now this is for the whole panel but why don't you take it first mark how should that be understood a gospel that does not offend has not been understood how should we understand that statement with respect to two types of evangelism confrontational evangelism the person next to you on the plane door-to-door work that type of thing versus the more long-term relational evangelism a family member that you're wooing over a long period of time a neighbor that type of thing what does it mean to be salty is there a right or wrong way to provoke unbelievers talk about a little bit yeah I think we tend to think that the toreador cold-turkey evangelism is by nature offensive and long-term relational of engine is not offensive that's not what I'm talking about at all it's the message not our method the message that needs to be offensive so some of you know let's say if if I'm not a believer in Michael's a believer but we're friends we want to school together someone's going to know each other Michael sharing the gospel with me I want to be offended not at Michael per se that might bother me that he thinks this but what you really offend me is when I understand what he's telling me about God and my sin that's what needs to be offensive and that's why I think we can learn something very positive from Whitfield in the servants of his that I've read he never tried to dress up the gospel and make it immediately sugar-sweet in a way it shouldn't be some of the programs you mentioned a few minutes ago when you mentioned various ones will say things would you like like would you like this free gift of eternal life well I just think that's a bad T up to the gospel I mean the obvious in it that's a shoe salesman of 1950s I mean the obvious answer to that is yes I would please when the obvious answer Jesus to the disciples you know if you want to follow me take up your cross and follow me well the obviously there is no thank you you know the cross wasn't a religious symbol that's just like saying you know go be killed terribly publicly shamefully so this good news that we have to present is undermined by some of the less thoughtful ways we try to appeal to the non-christian in wanting something immediately happy and I think that the offense that we're looking for is an offense in the realization of the Gospel message itself not in our method of being confrontational anyone else yeah just I think what would help people understand that sentence if person hasn't been offended the heaviness of the gospel is to say what what that means is nobody likes to be called a damnable sinner if you find that person that's Dennis Lee Falls the day that you enjoy having your sin exposed and your wickedness exposed in and your selfishness name for it is the day that you start enjoying that will be the day that sentence ceases to be true so just make sure we need to make sure that the the word offense probably stunned elitsa my stumbling I'm stuck you're telling me something I'm stumbling over on the way they're not jumping on top of them saying thank you for putting that under my feet we get to that point but a person that doesn't feel I don't like to be called a sinner I don't like to think of God as angry at me you're telling me that I deserve everlasting punishment where in the world you find anybody that says I like that and so that's what has to be and I think in our experience the people that Matt doesn't like to baptize are like that I mean if you have brought up in a Christian home you don't member time you what didn't love the Lord you know you were converted then we conclude theologically early in life they they may not you may not watch them go through that experience of being individually scandal so in our experience we find that with people growing up in Christian homes but they to themselves can't like the idea that they deserve God's judgment there was some point in which they you know mentally morally bowed their knee to Christ and so that offense is then for them in the past perhaps but I think we probably run into people - it's not immediately offensive because the Lord's converted them early on let's run with that just one step deeper then we want to live in such a way that Christ is seen as a treasure Christ is seen as attractive to unbelievers what does it mean then - is it primarily an external thing people will observe my piece or my marriage or the smile on my face or the in some circles the things I do and don't do the places I go and don't go is a primary a disposition of the heart kind of thing or is it an external thing and then does it cross a line at some point where you may like what God has done for me and this is all true but there's all of this sin and repentance stuff that has to be talked about as well maybe Matt would you take that just you're in that suburban context very religious group I think you want to in your preaching and teaching and all I'll roll it back here because what we're trying to do at the village is stop some of the cycle and and so one of the first things we wanted to address at the village was children's ministry how are we going to teach our children how are we going to teach them Jesus how are we going to teach them the gospel how are we going to because what we found is that the bulk of religious people who we were baptized we were coming to know Christ how to convert a were offended that we would question and in fact there were people who left I remember one man in particularly that came and sat down with me and just said I'm leaving because I don't like I I feel good before I come here and then I don't know when I leave so I'm leaning in well I mean he's in a great place to go never have that happen Dallas all over the place but what we were finding this conversion experience that look like this a little Timmy you want to come to heaven with mommy and daddy or do you want to burn it out do you want to do Timmy okay let's go let's let's go up front and so for us I mean to combat it we were going let's start early let's start early and and so we teach doctor took to our children I got my my little five-year-old is by the way I think she's just doing it cuz she didn't want to go to bed at night but if when I try to put her to bed at night on the way out of the room she'll ask me tell me about Jesus in the cross or tell me about the Trinity that like the Trinity is bothering my five-year-old which is a great deal it's bothering me too right but but but I'm going hey might the what what and what Carl what Matt what those guys are riding what they're teaching our children I've got my fine rope asking me about the triune God not not hearing oh god hates liars don't don't be a lot you know got these are the character issues that God enjoys and so I think right out the gate we're trying to combat that a cycle but by really addressing children's ministry preschool ministry in a profoundly doctrinal way so that here's how I've taught it out loud to our people my daughter about the age of two fell in love with pink all things pink so here's how we talk about God how good how beautiful how right is God that he gave us pink right so that that's a different way to anything my daughter enjoys I want to trace back the authorship to Christ anything my son rebels I want to trace back the authorship to Christ anything as the creator of all things so what I'm trying to do early on is is not point to God's disappointment in our failures but in his deep love for us in giving us such things to communicate his love as Grace's mercy is so that God for my three-year-old mother was the god of pink and then the god of candy and he's the god of dress-ups and he's the god of you know we took our kids to China he's the god of we just continually want to instill the joy of who he is in them by very early communicating created look at what he didn't and so I know that's a roundabout response to that question but we haven't we haven't mentioned that part of all of this yet and in regards to evangelizing what's next and instilling the joy of Christ and what's next and and so primarily yes there's frontlines but in regards to breaking the cycle and wanting it to be wanting the joy of Christ to be that's what I want that's my pursuit that's what I'm after that's the goal that's the we want to instill that very early on into our children then you know in preaching and teaching is what we do so God gives pink God gives candy God's the giver every good and perfect gift and then where do you stir in and you don't deserve any of this and the only reason to get is because and and how early do you want her to receive yeah sure I I want to constantly talk about two things in our home over everything over meal over um daddy-daughter time on date night on at bedtime I want there to be two constant themes goodness grace and mercy and our wickedness and so where God gives me the chance to point out her wickedness I want to point it out and then point right back to the God of pink and and we're so I think it's the same conversation I think it's got to be the same conversation but it was my experience in especially early on in talking that first two years with guys that God had become a policeman that that was it he was just the divine policeman who saw all that they were doing wrong and yeah loved him but saw you know there was no grandeur glory might power just I I failed in all these areas so that you got back to religion you got back to leaden try to earn his favor let me try to earn his favor so in small ways the God of pink is look at the grant and look at the might look at the glory of God and and then look at you look at look how unbelievably is to you look at how unbelievable he is to mommy and daddy look how gracious he is in that you you know our home you know our and and this is one of the things I tried to teach our staff we're all young we all have to I mean I apologize to my children console this daddy's wickedness this is God still working on Daddy's heart even big thing even you know what I think that there might be a little too much television in our house so then let's gather up I failed to this is daddy's wicked this is daddy's need of grace this is dead and so to me it's the it's the same message it's the same message the goodness of might and beauty of Christ Oh our wickedness so I think where the rubber meets the road is when you get to that point and the question arises so I want pink and everything good and I don't deserve it and you're telling me the solution is Christ and the gospel how do I get it and that's just that conversation going to happen pretty early sir and how do you not bring a three four five year old to premature professor yeah I don't I don't know how to answer your question I pray a lot you know I pray a lot and then I tell you where I've where I've benefited so far is that my daughter for whatever reason probably to have me on my knees much more often is just born a skeptic just born a you know we're reading her a little book about the Trinity that gave an illustration about it was a really horrible illustration but Gabel illustration she I mean immediately come flaunted she's like that's not true but it's not true I played by myself all the time I played by myself happily all the time okay all right okay well the author is an idiot boo and there are a lot of morons out there we're gonna have to watch out for it so I think he's protecting you right now because my daughter's a skeptic and she's not going to Oh daddy believes this let's go because she'll even now I mean there have been times my wife and I almost with a little panic look look at ourselves you know look at each other across the dinner table because of something she shot that or because hey boo do you want to pray no I don't you go ahead daddy oh I don't know so far what you're saying has not been true because there's no premature descendant of faith she's still probing it for weaknesses so that's an advertisement for children desiring God confidence in April every day those are not easy questions I've raised five kids up into professions of faith and I can describe how we did it but but I don't have great confidence that we as a church have got that one figured out so that we don't raise up a generation of nominal Christians all right mark one last question for you and then I'm going to pitch it over to John with actually a last question that I'd like you just to a direct it's one that came up many times here we'll get to in a second Mark salt light in the world but not of the world savour of life unto life for some I want Christ to be attractive pastors asking about this again let's really I want to hear you go at that I want to love my neighbor I want to live a winsome life and yet there's really hard things I'm going to have to tell them at some point that that may not be attractive at all that may just because it's leading to a question I want to ask John about fear so just talk about again that in the world but not of the world salt light love savour of life aroma of Christ Christ is great he's my treasure and this is really going to offend you well usually we're talking literally my neighbor that's not going to be one conversation there's going to be a relationship that gets built up and the first time I have lunch with almost anybody by nature I just interrogate them I asked them about their parents their grandparents how they met when they became Christians you know if they're from a Christian home you know what they did when they were five when they were 10 when they were 15 I mean I just so when I first meeting a neighbor and I say you can ask me all the same questions but when I'm first going to know a neighbor or somebody like that people tend to like to talk about themselves they feel loved and in fact I am loving and they know that and they sense that and I'm genuinely interested well yeah partly so it depends on depends on what we get into it but I mean I mean to be interested I'm curious and so that they're they're being genuinely loved and they they sense that and people are naturally going to like that I don't think that's manipulative I just think that's the nature the way the Lord made us with human relationships so that at whatever point however long I'm carrying on this conversation you know at whatever point I get to at some point you know the fact that I understand not because of my personal we serve it uniquely but I understand because in my own study of God's revelation of himself of the truth about us that we are all sinful and then draw the implications for them and personally I think they understand that I'm not I'm not the author of that I'm not shooting that them though they may feel it's kind of horrendous that I can actually believe that and you know be let around to wander around free in the country you know so I'm selling to a secular Jewish friend the other day and I don't think he understood before the winds put a day booking a few years ago going to use bookstores and thought I'd covered this but maybe you forgot but anyway I can up again what what I think Christianity teaches about sinfulness and he just always a portable you know now I don't think that trashed our relationship that may abate it not particularly I just call me again soon I don't know but it's I think if you do it in the context of getting to know somebody either it's on an airplane trip that I'm just I've been securely in them and their family what's going on then it's the message that's offensive you know hopefully it's not that ever reason to personally reject me and this is this one place that I love John the way you talk about being satisfied in God because I think people see that I think the Lord made us to be like that and even for people who hate the message they like what they see in the result of somebody who is truly happy and satisfied when things that seem that just have a sort of precognitive feel that they are innately good and right that you can be a human being and be satisfied like that not based on any external possession there's something I think that rings true in them you know in bunions holy war you got the town of Mansoul by Ovilus takes over the whole thing except the town crier old man conscience he's largely controlled by doctors but every once a while he grabs the Bell and he just starts ringing the bell and running the town of Mansoul saying DiNapoli's is a liar and a thief Emmanuel is the true Prince of Mansoul well that happens when you talk to you non-christian friends when you're delighted in God when you're satisfied in the Lord there is something authentically human about the way he made us to be that will make even the most offended non-christian see something winsome and attractive not because we're clever or witty or dress well but because we love the Lord and that's how he made us to be amen amen well yes yep tell you follow exactly I'm trying to figure out why I am I'm less successful than Mark Denver and I think there's something about the way I'm wired that if we get to that point about some bad news being shared about you it cut is over at that way whereas you are wired in such a way that the relationship survives like I state things in such a way that so I mean this is they're going and and give me an example when you thought you're going to go to hell and and I mean just just without not saying it like that the reality of how the reality of your sinfulness your depravity you seem to be able and there's a kind of odd an outgoing interest that that makes these these Ultimates not feel at that moment as ultimate doesn't say as they are because that sounds bad as ultimate as they seem like they should be felt to be and and yet that rescues the relationship for you to get them to the point where they can see them as serious as they are whereas I think I'm a prematurely push them to the ultimate sense of you're feeling how serious this is yet and you need to and that that that makes them feel like there's a there's no future for this relationship this preacher guy is just this is too heavy whereas you you speak about things and then the heaviness factor is suspended somehow for a season and then can come in and conversion how does that happen well you know I I don't know that I've really seen that many people converted I'm glad you think I'm successful at that but I don't know that I have but I think when I have and I look at it you know it's usually not been those usually I don't they've ever been that I'm aware of an airplane kind of conversation it's been like with Ryan just studying Mark's Gospel for three or four months together so Jesus is saying the offensive things I am helping them come to understand Jesus I'm helping them come to understand the gospel what Christianity teaches so it might not have such a personal dart as if it were the first conversation you know Michael it's just a complete secateurs till I tell him yeah you're going to burn you know it's not it's not like that it's it said Michael is curious about Christianity so he's reading about Jesus and we're talking about it together and he is more Socratic and he comes see that Wow this is what Jesus teaches now yeah I mean perfect example is Bilal this Muslim Lebanese friend I mentioned in one of the talks in that very same conversation he was praising me and my wife for having such a righteous house he's been in our home and he was just contrasting with Britain and and I I thought I saw an opportunity for the gospel there and I don't know that's quite right but I said so beyond do you think when I die I'm going to go to hell and he said a pause from him he said surely not God would not send someone so righteous as you to hell and I knew they'd want ask my question he would ask the follow-up which is why I asked it and he paused from and he said and do you think when I will die I will go to hell I said oh yes you know you will certainly get hell you know because because I will go to hell all everyone will go to hell because of our sins against God we need to say so that was an example in which you know I did sort of push it personally like that in order that I had that relationship all it survived oh yeah give ya relationship we're torn not to stop on these things how we need the Lord's help in these things well John I want you to encourage us even as you close us in prayer and there were several questions that came and they weren't questions they were confessions of men who are hear phrases like I am paralyzed by fear I can preach to hundreds in my congregation about the gospel but I cannot bring myself to open my mouth to an individual I'm afraid that I might manipulate I'm afraid I might say it wrong I'm afraid of losing the relationship I'm afraid of being rejected I'm afraid of failure and then several of them just that the sense of guilt over not doing that has been brought to light through this conference what do you tell those folks which is many of us if we're honest we have strong fear and hesitation in this regard how do we rest in the gospel even as we pursue these things for God's glory just to orient myself on that spectrum of fear what I find most enticing about my own fear is that it rises in proportion to the sophistication of the person I'm talking to when I do my jogging evangelism in my neighborhood it's mainly poor and uneducated people that I'm passing as I jog and I've got tracks in my pocket and it's Monday or it's early morning and I'm not the time so I'm jogging and I pray for the Lord to help me stop I find that relatively easy to do so here's three guys Native American African American and and Hispanic guys and they're trash-talking each others but 8 o'clock in the morning and they're just laying into bush and talking about Obama and noon I thought this is cool so I just blend your right into these guys and say hey can tell you about Jesus now I find that incredibly easy to do because I frankly I feel superior to those guys in that there it is into would feel great and there goes there goes John Piper is down to selfish ego and but if I run by bus stop and there's a nicely dressed woman and and she's on the way to work downtown in the 46th floor dids tower as a lawyer I know Stan I'm sweating and you know cut off Bermuda shorts on 63 years old look like an idiot she's so perfect so there there there's mine so all that to just say I'm with you and that's that that's pride that's fear that's ranking acts 541 rejoiced that we were shamed for the name I won't mind being shamed by somebody who's a lower educated person but I don't want to be shamed by a lawyer do I need to cross or what now what do you do I don't think I can say much more than has been said except that life is very short and the approval of the creator of the universe is infinitely more valuable than the approval of any sophisticated person and I'm not responsible for their conversion I'm responsible as mark just laid it out so well to be faithful to the gospel and everything is going to work together for my good if they roll their eyes if they spread rumors about me if they say ugly things the the sinking see I think all of us are wrestling with things that happen to us when we were four I can name two horribly embarrassing things that I can remember from grade school but I think scarred me forever and made me very hesitant to say certain things in certain situations so preacher easy Piper's bold and acid toned but I am no more bold that you are on the airplane and innumerable and a lot of it is owing to different kinds of experiences we've had and I I just think we should look that in the face and say blessed are you when men persecute you and revile you and say all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account rejoice and be glad for great is your reward in heaven for so many persecutions who were before you that is addressed squarely to our situation they're gonna refile reviling is the thing I don't want more than any shoot me yes reviled me no make me lose my job and I'll be cool and strong I don't want to be reviled falsely so Jesus Tech takes that one on and he says great is your reward in heaven so brothers do we believe in what's coming I really think being heavenly minded is the answer here life is short heaven is long Christ is there his approval is there someday he is on our side these people don't matter ultimately if they're on our side are not he matters ultimately that that whole thing do we believe it do at that moment on the plane or in the neighborhood or at the officer in the wherever do we believe it and so let's pray for faith let's pray that he is supremely valuable to us and that we then would be granted the gift to care that others join us in that supreme value paralyzed I'm supposed to closing prayer so I'm gonna pray for those of us who will wrestle with that and then and then give back to Scott father I I knew this this panel would get to the point of my own weakness my own fears and I just want to be really really candid I feel so enough to compare to mark and Mark feels in it and so we're guests together how these brothers feel arm in arm with fellow self-contradictory people why would why would John Piper preach with such boldness to 5,000 folks and then be squeamish with a well-dressed woman on the street well that's that God break in breaking on me help help me to care more like mark is way ahead of me on this care more about asking what happened when you were five and what happened when you into high school and people do like you to take interest in them and I'm hurrying home I kind of got to write so god I pray for greater interest in my heart in other people and less fear about what they think of me especially the sophisticated ones and more belief in the reward of heaven great is your reward in heaven and it's coming soon Oh give us a keen sense of what we're going to die and when we die we're going to see him and then we'll everything will be made up for one hundred twelve thousand four million phone so God we confess our sins you are faithful and just you forgive our sins and I really pray that the upshot of his conference would be new fresh boldness they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and they spoke the Word of God with boldness so God Holy Spirit would you come would you come and fill these brothers on their way home in Jesus you

Channel: Truth Endures

Views: 15,358

Rating: 4.7473683 out of 5

Keywords: Matt Chandler (Person), Mark Dever (Author), John Piper (Author), Religion (TV Genre), Friends, John Piper, Mark Dever, Matt Chandler, and Michael Oh

Id: uJseEBHjQDQ

Length: 75min 28sec (4528 seconds)

Published: Sat Sep 19 2015