(gentle music) - Well, Glen, first of all,
welcome to High Performance. - Pleasure to be here. And well, you can't see
the views that I can see. It's beautiful up here isn't it? - Yeah, gorgeous.
- Right across London. - Let's always start where
we begin these podcasts, in your mind, what do you
believe to be high performance? - First and foremost, I
think high performance, I think possibly we might get carried away with the top level. That's what it probably
means in most people's eyes. I think high performance is getting the best out of yourself, whatever that is in life. If you've got a natural talent or if you've got something
you're gonna work hard at, wherever, sport or no sport, it is about getting the
absolute best out of yourself, which takes a bit of time. That's not gonna happen
probably early in your life, but it's gonna happen at some
stage or it should happen. And I don't think you're doing yourself any favors as a person, if you don't get the best out of yourself and search for that and seek for that. It'd be amazing what you can achieve. - Lovely. And you sit here and you talk from a place of real experience across not just elite sport,
but life experience as well. And we will talk about where
it all began in your career, which is where we normally start. But I don't feel we can start anywhere apart from the sort of most
recent big event in your life, which is when you had your
cardiac arrest at BT Sport. How different is the person
sitting opposite us today from the man who would've sat
here three or four years ago? - Yeah, there is a difference, Jake, without a doubt. I mean, I was just so lucky
to be still sitting here, to be honest, you know, if it wasn't for Simon Daniels, on that fateful day in the BT studios, I wouldn't be sitting here, you know. - [Jake] He's the guy
that saved your life? - Yeah, Simon saved my life,
there's just no doubt about it. You know, with the CPR, with a cardiac arrest, you have to get there within
three minutes, really. If not, you've got no chance. I found all this ever since. But no, so I owe him my life. Has it changed my life? Yes, it has, there's no doubt about that. Every second of my life is special now. It always was. And I had, listen, I've had a deep belief about, you know, I believe in that we go on, I think there's a spirit
inside us that lives on. It's nothing to do with
religion in my opinion, it's just my humble opinion. But it's every single one of us live on. So I've had that belief. I had that spirituality within me. But since it's happened, I didn't go to some light, I didn't see what some people experience, I gotta say, but I've come back and I've
been saved really in many ways. And I just feel there's a deep knowingness of who I really am inside me now, than before this happened. Perhaps I was searching
and seeking that before, but there's certainly something
that's been going on since. Yeah and...
- What have you found? - No, I do believe, I've always believed in the afterlife, I do believe there's a spirit there waiting for us all, a consciousness. And I'm tapping into that consciousness. I think the mind and the body are powerful and that's what we see and that's the material side of the world. But I do believe there's
another, it's like an onion, you know, you peel off one layer and then there's another layer. But I truly believe our consciousness is at that third layer. And that's our real sort of, ourself. That's ourself, really. We think in a way that our mind is us and our body and our material
life that we're living in. But this has made me really think, I looked into that in many
ways for over 30 odd years, 40 years actually searching. But since I've come back
from being saved, really, in many ways, I've got
a completely different, deeper outlook than I've ever had before. Yeah, so it's... - What is your outlook now then? - I just know there's something in there, there's no such thing as death. When you actually come to realize that in your consciousness, and this is my belief, it
doesn't matter to anyone else. Everyone's got their individual belief. But when you actually
realize there's no death, that fear how you die, maybe
you might be a bit scared of, but there is no death, we live on. And I think that's really
almost been the last part of a little jigsaw that
I've been putting together for many, many years
with my spiritual life. And you know, what I
went through was tough. You know, what my family
went through was tough but coming through it
now, I call it extra time. And funny enough, that's
what the documentary with BT, we called it, I said, I want
it to be called, "Extra Time." Cause I feel as if I'm
in extra time, you know, if it goes to penalties,
it goes to penalties. (gentle laughter) - So do you believe that you were saved by Simon for a reason? - No, look, this is it, see, I think the reason might be just for myself, inside myself. I mean, I have questioned that, I have sort of sat down
in the light at home, and recuperation and the times when I, you know, I could hardly
walk at the beginning. So it's been a long sort of
getting back to where I was. And there was times where I thought, well, why, why was I saved? Other people haven't been saved. Is there some sort of
big thing I've got to do? Is there something I've gotta? You know, they were the
questions I was asking. And in the end, I've just,
it's unfolded within me as if to say, no, this is the reason why. As I say, I've been
searching for a long time, but now there's this understanding that there is this real
deep, third part of us that we don't really know and understand. And it's now opening up. - Brilliant.
- And that's just for me. - Yeah. - And it's nothing religious,
religion is man-made. This is at a spiritual level. This is a deep within us all. It's a consciousness, an awareness because our minds are powerful, but they can camouflage a lot. - So is it something that like, can we think of an example that you would respond differently today than you might have done
before this incident. - I mean, your fears go out the window. You know, when you actually
understand that, as I said, you know, there's no death, there's a lot of fear about, you know, and it's a fear a there's a apprehension about things in our life that we don't need to be worrying about. There's a lot of worry,
there's a lot of stress. Stress is something that's
brought on by people. And you got two ways now. And if you go into that
deeper part of yourself, which is your true self, I think you cope and deal with things. Well, you don't even
have to cope with them because they don't become a problem. You know, you approach
it in a different way. And I think that's, what's
happening, certainly to me, since, you know, I've had
this extra moment and time, it's a consciousness that you think, well, I'm tapping into
something deeper in myself that I, before I thought
might have been there, but this is unfolding now. And there's less fear in you. This doesn't mean as much. The material life doesn't mean anything. It's one thing I really, I've always sort of had a little bit of belief about that anyway, but I know it now, as a
knowingness that you can't take. You know, I was so close to death that I did go for seven minutes. But you can't take anything with you, you can't take your
material things with you. So it's how you do things. And what you do is far more important than what we achieve in
this material sort of world. Yes, we're in this environment and it's there to be
enjoyed, it's there to, you know, to enjoy it,
but you enjoy it more when you know yourself more and more, and all them fears go out the window. - Brilliant. And you know as a friend and
a colleague of yours, right, I love hearing you talk like that. And I love the fact that
that is how you feel. Because I think that, you know, I can still see, there's
a slight hesitancy maybe with you to talk like this because people judge, right. And we live in a world where
everyone has an opinion. People don't carry empathy with them. But how wonderful to feel like
that, to feel that freedom, to feel that kind of, that
sense of serenity, really, that all the little
things that do get us down and can get us down count for nothing. And, you know, you are coming at this from the position of a former
professional footballer, lauded as highly as you
could be as a footballer, managed your country, successful
manager at club level. Yet even you've realized that actually, all of those things don't count, what you did does not matter
how you did it does matter. - Yeah, that's exactly it. I mean, you can't take
your medals with you. You can't take your achievements, you can't take your bank
balance or your big house. And these are the things
that I think in life, we always, we get mixed up in. And they're important to a degree, but it's how and why and how
you've worked that through is more important, vastly more important in my
eyes at the moment than... It's how we treat each other. It's as simple as that in many ways. And in this modern day world, you know, perhaps we've took our eyes off that, you know, because it is a
material world out there, there's all these problems. But, in some ways, this is
a little bit of an illusion. If you see where I'm coming from. - Yeah.
- Yeah. - Absolutely. Do you almost have this
sense that maybe, you know, sort of you've been woken
up to what you believe, yet you see other people walking around obsessed with the new car
or delaying their happiness until they get a great job or waiting until they
get a promotion at work before they feel validated? And really, all you are really saying is none of those things provide a validation for us as human beings. - No, absolutely. There's no judgment there whatsoever. You know, years ago, I
would've been similar to that, without a doubt. There's no rights and
wrongs in life, you know, there's only your own opinions. It's a very individual thing. That's what I've also come. You know, I searched different
theories and religions, you know, I looked into
Buddha, I looked into Christ, I looked into Christian. Now, all these things over 40 odd years of searching and reading and you know, just taking everything in and then filtering in
what made sense to me and what didn't make sense. But since the cardiac
arrest and what happened, it seems like something has happened in, you know, there's another set of, I say this in football terms sometimes, another set of curtains
have opened for me. And in football, as you grow
as an experienced player, when you're 35, the game's
different to when you're 18. These other sets of curtains seem to open. And in life, I think that happens as well. It certainly has happened to me. So no, I understand, you
know, we all understand, we all the same, we're
living in an earthy world, we're living in this environment. This is in a way our test, in a way. Our spirit actually gets
tested, left, right and center. And there's no harsher,
probably way of being tested than on earth, than this material world that we live in, because you can just get
carried away with it. But you know, it's
something that's deep inside each and every one of us, you don't have to go to a church. You don't have to go down one religion. We are all connected with a, you know, through this consciousness. - See what's striking Glen,
is that your curiosity is quite remarkable in many ways that you said you'd been asking these questions for over 40 years, what was it that peaked this
curiosity in the first place? - Well, Damien, that's a good question because
normally some people hit the, the depths in life before they
actually look at themselves and think what is there
to, I was the other way. I was about 27, 28 years of age. And I write this about in, in the book and I had everything really. I had a lovely career, fabulous career. I had a lovely family, kids,
marriage, house, car, you know, everything was there, but there was like, all I can say is like asking this great, big question
mark inside myself. And that was it. One day, I thought, why am I? There must be more to life. And that was then, that was really setting
off on that journey. Then I went searching and
looking down different avenues, all the different avenues I've sort, probably learned a lot from, but it was down at Christian Church. It was then going, as I say, looking into the spiritual in the Eastern philosophies. So I searched lots of different things and things were happening
to me individually. And everyone's faith is their own faith. There's no, no such thing as one faith,
it's your individual. You know, if you imagine you're a wheel, you've got middle of
the center of the wheel, but you've got million spikes, you know, going out to that wheel. And that's where it, we all are. It's no one way of thinking and that's the more, more I open my mind, the more that happened to me. So, yeah. And I've been searching that
and it's been continuing up right up until I'm talking now. So that's the exciting side about it all. It's there to be unfold. - I don't know if you've read the book, "The Second Mountain." It was recommended to us by
one of our previous guests by a guy called David Brooks who talks about a lot of
people climb the first mountain of a career and the house and all the chaplains of success that you describe, but the souls that get off that mountain. Well, all get to the top of it and realize it's not, the
view's not worth the climb. That then goes to that second
mountain of being curious and connection with other people and what the kind of way we behave, where real happiness lies. - See, I think that's interesting. I haven't read that book. No. but I think we are all
searching outside ourself. That's the only thing I can say. I think we've got, if you
search within yourself, that's where you'll find the connection, whatever that connection is to, everyone's gonna maybe
look at it differently. To me I think it's a creator that is of, of a consciousness and I'm, there's an awareness out there
that goes deeper within us. So we are looking to go
to different religions to go to the top of a mountain or the bottom of the ocean to find, but it's within ourself that
creators within ourself, that little spark is in there. And I think that's where I've
been searching and searching. But I think after this
cardiac arrest, it's, there's a lot of things happening that, that are just unfolding again, even deeper than I had before. So, you know, thank God for Simon and thank God I'm still
sitting here talking about it. - Could you, would you share what those things are that are unfolding that feel different? - Just everyday life, everyday situations that you think about. You know, there's a
serenity, there's a calmness, there's no panic. There's
no worry about, you know, if there is a problem,
it's not a real problem. It's an illusion in many ways, it's there. I can make a decision on it. I think there's deeper
things that I'm now thinking well yeah, but if I look
at it in a positive way, that will dissolve, it's almost
like things will dissolve. If you look deep within yourself and know that there's a third part of you. It's quite simple for me. I think you got a, you know, you got a body, you got a mind and you've got a spirit. And it's the three dimensions really. And I think it's the spirit side that's really opened up
in me since it happened. So once you tap into that, I think the fears go out in your life. You know, the joy comes
in even more joyous and you don't have to wait for the... We all think we're gonna have to be happy when we achieve things. You can be happy every single day. You can be happy every
moment within yourself. - So without being cross England,
do you think that if you, if this realization would've happened when you were still playing football, do you think it would've helped you? - Without any shadow of a doubt, it would've been wonderful
for that to have evolved and opened up when I was
younger, when I was playing. I think it would've, it
would've been immense for me, but also when I, if I'm
really truly honest, I think it would've been a test as well, because suddenly to actually
understand that some of this could be illusionary really
in many ways, the earthy side, the material, if it ends
up in, within yourself, you think to yourself, it
doesn't mean that much. Then you've got a bit
of a conundrum outer. How do you then go out and play football and try and win and compete? So that may have been a test. I think, as with my
experience now, looking back, I think I would've coped, but I'm not sure if I
would've been 22 or 27 then, and found out about this,
whether I would've coped, whether I would've had to say, I dunno if I can actually
achieve what I need to do as a footballer. You know, it's happened
now a lot later in my life, but if I'm really honest, it would've been a bit
of a conundrum, yeah. But it would've, if I could have dealt with
it and had the harmony and had the balance right. Oh my word, it would've, it
would've helped me so much, so much more. - What I think's really powerful
about this conversation is that you're not sitting here saying, "This is my set of beliefs and you have to follow them to be happy." What you're saying is just explore, just see what might be out there. And it's so easy, isn't it
for people to be dismissive or to say, I, you can't just be happy because you change your mindset, but you absolutely can. You know, everyone can find this. What advice would you give
to people listening to this who maybe are struggling,
maybe are unhappy? How do they begin the journey
of looking within themselves? - Well, that's the thing. It's, don't go from your mind. You know, when you can think about things, but there is another part to you. There's a deeper part
to you that is aware. There's an awareness about you. - How do you plug into that though? - Well, you go within,
you have to go within. That's why I think people like meditation and that they switch
the material life off, they switch their conscious
mind off, then forget there's. This is what we're talking about. There's a consciousness inside us. It's so much, there is
science will tell you that. You know, the conscious mind is the smallest part of our mind. And we live in that. We live in that most of our day. When you go out to sleep, you don't die, do you? So your mind is still going. So when you wake in there's
things that's happened. It deep inside you. And that's where, that's where I'm saying to people, that's where you need to go. You need to go one step
further than your mind. You have to close that mind. You have to quiet your mind to
go into this sort of position where there's an awareness about you. That is your true self. And once you tap into that, then these things unfold. Because if you think it's just the mind, the mind is you can have a positive mind. You can have a negative
mind. It's your choice. There's two things could come up. Some people could approach that in, in a negative way. And someone approaches
it in a positive way. That's the power of our mind, but there's a deeper part of us. There's an awareness inside us. The true spirit that's sparking us. That is we're all the same, in my opinion. That's where we live on. That's where you seek.
That's where you go to. And if you go that deep
and you find yourself, then all these things unfold. - I think it's worth
pointing out as well, Damien. Like there are always cynics, right? They exist everywhere. What bad thing can come of exploring? Do you know what I mean? Though people go, "I'm not doing that." Well, the worst thing is you find nothing and you carry on as you
were and everything's fine. - That's right. And that's your right. That's your right to do that as well. That's the beauty of it. As I said, in football, I've used the terminology. And I think in life, as I saying, there's no rights or wrongs. It's what you find out yourself. It's what's right for you and
what's right wrong for you. And that's how you have to live. - So that curiosity, if I can take you back to the
start of your career, Glen, one thing that intrigued
me reading about you was that you must have been
one of the first footballers in the UK that went and sought
out help from a psychologist. I think it was called
John Sayer. Is that right? When you were at Tortenhum. - You say, yeah, well, I didn't
really seek out what I did. What we did do is that Keith
Berkenshaw and Peter Shreves was his assistant. I think the pair then decided that. And I think Stevie Perryman, our skipper was very close to... I wanna think back was very
close to Keith and Peter. And I think between the three of them, I'm guessing a little bit here, but it seems they were always
a tightly near the captain and the manager and Peter, I think it was them
that seeked out in 1980 sports psychologists to
come to the club back then, back then no one was doing it. Me included, all the
lads were a little bit, "Oh, what's this?" You know, weren't sure about it to be quite honest at the time. He was a lovely, lovely guy
and Chris Conley as well. There's two of them came in, but then eventually we started
to get some confidence. He had us in team building
meetings and stuff like that. And then we had individual meetings. That's when I really
started to think about what he was saying. I thought, oh, I like this. This is, this is quite interesting. This I'd never heard of anything about it. All the little techniques
he was coming out with, I thought this is a bit of me. I think this, I could, this is gonna help me. Whereas before for a couple of months, we were all a little bit, you know. Footballers were like- - Yeah, yeah. - What's this, you know? Dunno if I can swear on this
program, but you know, what, what is this all about? Is a load of rubbish, you know. And we were all the same, but then slowly but surely. And you know what? We, that team, that team just gelled. We had wonderful talent in the team, but there was just that
little bit something missing. Players travel together on coaches, on trains, on planes and whatever. They very rarely talk to
each other about the game. They talk about music or
they might have bit of banter and taking the out of each other. All them things, you
spend hours and hours, but you have a team meeting. And that's that back in the day, that was normally the
management talking at you. You never really had, but we had these round
tables sort of open chats with the players. He made
us talk to each other. He then set aside and
we spoke to each other. And if you went to talk to him, he'd say, "No, no, no. I
want you to look at him." If it was golf crooks or Aussie
or no, look at each other. Talk, make contact with your
eyes and talk to each other. What do you like about
when he does good things and tell him what you don't like when you're out on the pitch. And we started to this, this started to build between this team and you know what happened? We were successful. We were fighting for
it over the late '70s. Aussie and Ricky come from the
world cup, which was amazing. But there was still a problem. This, not a problem,
but we still couldn't. We couldn't gel together. Suddenly, he bought
crooks and Archie ball, which was the end of the jigsaw. And we, the creation that
we were getting as a team. We had finishes in the team,
but it was this gelling of the, what I call the invisible walls
were just being broken down between relationships between the team. And it was just amazing. And suddenly the
confidence that came there, the feeling that we had for each other, the respect that we had for each other, we didn't have to get on with them. Didn't have to be best
mates. We've everyone, but you had to respect each other. And suddenly it just took off and we won. We won the FA cup in '81. We were going for four trophies in '82, which we managed to win. We should have really done better. Then we won the UAFA cup a year after. It was just incredible. What Johnny had done. - And what about you individually, Glen? I've read that. Did he sort of give you that
mantra of Lord the manner? - He just, no, he just... I'll tell you what he did. He said, "Look, every single person," he talked as a person, not as a player. He said, "But if you've got a problem," he said, "And you don't want
it to affect your performance." Little bit to what we're saying. He said, "You've gotta visualize. I was always a visual
player anyway, naturally. I used to visualize
stuff when I was a kid, really, I used to play in the garden. There was 50,000 there. You know, I even commentated then back in the day, when I think about it, when
I was or nine in the garden. So I was visualizing,
going past Bobby Moore. I could visualize, I
could see it in my eye, in my mind's eye. So that was something that hit me when he said, "Visualize." And I started visualizing. He said, "If you've got a problem, don't let it affect your performance." He said, "So I want you to
visualize putting that down." And nowadays there's a lot
of these to a penny probably, but this was back in the early '80s. Write down your problem,
visualize putting it in a drawer, lock it away, put make
sure you it's not there. So you doesn't affect your performance. And I thought, actually,
I quite like that. So I did that on numerous occasions and that stayed with me all my life. - What was he asking you to do? Write down problems. The things you wanted to solve or. - I was worried about that might have gone and blocked in my perform. We're talking about performance here. So he would say, "Visualize,
you are writing it down on a bit of paper, whatever
the problem would be. Maybe there might have been
a problem with one of my kids might have ill or whatever,
I'm just giving an example. Whatever they may be, write
them down, visualize it, open the drawer, put it in
the drawer, lock the drawer. Don't throw the key, cause you're gonna have to
go back to them problems. But to then go and perform, then go and see yourself
walking onto the pitch and I'd do that. And as I say, it was a bit down my street. Anyway, cause I used to
visualize as a kid, all my life, I've been visual with
how I played football. So that was an individual bit
of work that I did with him. Then that as I say, stayed for life, he was a terrific and Chris was as well. But I worked more with John. I took John with me to
Southampton when I was a manager and there was a lot of
great work we did there. And the players took,
took to it eventually. And I saw players blossom. Like we like it happened in
the '80s. We taught them. I saw it happen to
particularly Southampton. The players took to it. I saw a young Wayne Bridge
who was 17 years of age. Wouldn't say wonderful talent. Didn't know he was a wonderful talent. Wouldn't say boot or goose. And suddenly he made us have these big, big meetings where you
had to say something. So the pencil would be handed
round and it come to Bridge. He'd be all red. He'd go red. He'd be really uncomfortable. But he said something about
the game at the weekend or whatever. Even if he said, oh, I
didn't like training today. We made him talk. Suddenly, three months, four
months, five months later, he was expressing himself. He was talking what the team needed. He flourished and he'd
become a terrific player. As we all know, went
on to play for England, blah, blah, blah. He's not like that now by the way, cause he's in the same stable at 10-10. But no that was Bridge at the beginning. Just one example and it
was lovely to see him grow. And it, I don't think
that would've happened if we hadn't have had that side of his, the mentality and the
allowing him to grow himself. And then having those meetings, the other defenders,
talking to him and saying, "You don't realize how good you are." And when your peers say that, "You could play for England Bridgey," in their meetings, you know, they had the back four and the goalkeeper would go in with John and then they went on and
I think we at the time, well I think we went
nine premier league games about clean sheets. And that unit with a
goalkeeper in the back four was incredible what he did there. And ironically, they went out and we got, I think it was eight clean sheets on the, on the trot, which is a sun
guy in the premier league. And that's little old Southampton when we were down at the deal. So you can see there was positivity, there was results from those
things that had happened. So it was saying intriguing and it was, it was great fun working with him. - And they're all the same players. They've all got the same
ability they had before. But what we're talking about here is, is the power of sharing the
power of an emotional connection with other people. - Absolutely. - And getting your mindset, right? So people always talk about you as being a naturally gifted footballer. How to, what percent do
you think your success as a footballer was in the mind and what percent was in the body? - Mine's quite a difficult
one to answer in a way because I, without sounding big-headed I was just, I was lucky
I was born that way. I was naturally foot- I was naturally born to play football. It chose me. Really. From a very young age, 4, 5, 6, I could play with two feet. And then the difference with
me, I would normally say, you need the mental and
you do need the mentality with, to go with any talent. Because again, we're going
back to how we really started about high performance is
getting the best outta yourself. It would hurt me as a kid, if
the ball went over my foot, if I wonder my foot, if
I miscontrolled one pass, it would hurt me literally inside that wouldn't be good enough. So my mentality was that strong. It was that, but the other
side, I loved football. So it was so much in my DNA that I, I was lucky because I put the hours in because of the love of the game. I would be constantly
playing football as a kid, just constantly. I
would be absolutely mad. I was mad on football. My mum, it used to drive
her mad, bless her. You know, I'd come in from dad playing with me out in the park. It'd be pitch black. And he'd sort of, hide round the corner. Pretend he's gone in. I'd be out there sort of
crying with a ball under my arm and then I'd go in and then
I'd start kicking the ball around in the lounge. Even when I went upstairs, I'd a sponge ball that I'd
play in the bedroom to, you know, it was, I was
football, football, football. So I'd play against a wall for
hour after hour after hour, just on my own. So it was, I put the hours in. So someone could be there saying, "You gotta put the hours in.
You gotta put the work in. Talent's not enough." But I was lucky in the sense
that I had this burning love within me to play football
from a very young age. And that hasn't really
left me to be honest, I can't get bored with football. - Well, I was gonna say that I was talk, me and Jake were talking off Evan. I remember reading Terry Gibson
when he was a young player describing the gym where
he had different targets on the wall. - Yeah, it was great. - How, but he was describing how, even when you were an
established first team player, just watching you, just
loving going in there, even when nobody was
asking you to work on it. - Absolutely. I mean, that's one of the, it was, that was me going back
to when I was a kid, cause I'd find a wall somewhere. I used to drive the neighbors mad. Oh Pete and Mary next door apologize here. But it was like, that's what we did at Tortenhum for hours and hours from
11 to till I was 15, till I signed on well 16 apprentice, we had every Tuesday and
Thursday in the ball court and they had circles, line, squares, and you had to hit the square, hit the line above the line, coming, all the skills would
spend an hour and half. That was our training sessions
all through those years. So playing against the wall was just how I was brought up. It's sad now because where can you, where can you see a kid
playing against the wall? They can't do it. And it was funny. I went to the beautiful
Tortenhum training ground years ago when it was first built. Wonderful, it's immaculate. It really is. And I said to the guy
who was taking us around, I said, "Where's the wall? Where you got your walls?" And he looked at me and I went, he said, "No, we've got the gym inside." I said, "No, but you got,
you got no walls outside." - For kicking a ball against. - When you and he went, no. I said, well the millions of
pounds that they they've spent. I remember when I went to Chelsea, I put two walls up outside and we ended up having
to put 'em on wheels cause we'd wheel them out
obviously on the grass. So we would wheel them about, and they were just a bit
bigger than the goal. And it was for the youngsters. It was for the academy boys really. I said, let's have them. And then in the end, our first team players would do it and we'd have some sessions against it. And then you'd look out the office and you'd see some
players, not all of them, but some would spend hours, listen, give me a ball and a wall. You don't need a coach.
You don't need your dad. You just need time. And the love of doing it and
you'll become a better player. Two-footed inside your
foot, outside your foot. Your feet are like golf clubs. As a footballer, you've gotta
be learn to use both of them. And you've gotta learn to use the inside and the outside of your foot. If you can do that and you will improve, you won't get worse. If you can do that, you've got angles to play
passes that others haven't got. And that's a massive advantage. - Wonderful. Let's move forward then to the management period of your career. And whether it's at
Southampton or at Swindon or with England or Chelsea, wherever, what culture did you want
to create as a manager? - Well, I knew, I knew how I wanted them to play whatever team I wanted to play football, with a balance. You have to have balance,
but it was a passing game. It was a technical game. So I wanted to, and I also wanted to improve every player. Yes. I was there to get results. Yes. We had to win
games to be competitive, to get promotion at Swindon for instance, but I wanted to improve players. That's where I was. It wasn't just about setting up the team. I wanted to improve them individually and tactically as a team as well. So there was a lot of work to go in. Some managers don't look at it that way. It's like, do this, do that. And we're gonna win whatever, which way. I wanted us to play a certain way. But I also wanted them
to improve as players. They weren't all gonna like you, it wasn't about liking people. It's about respecting people. And I think I had that as a manager, but I respected every
single player I worked with. Certain, you know, it's been aimed at me over the years wrongly that, cause I was a technical player
that I didn't have patience. I had more patience than anyone I realized I were a great iterable. So you know, I couldn't judge anyone who couldn't trap a ball or pass a ball. - Yeah, cause they used to say that you, you were the best player in
training and you showed off, got annoyed if players weren't good enough but that's a myth, right? - That's a myth. It's a myth. It really is. I mean, I was a
player manager for four years, obviously with Swindon and Chelsea. So that was different. I had to be good enough
to play in the team. As a player manager, you can't take somebody's place
cause they'll resent that. But if long as you're affecting
the game in a positive way, which I was then I was okay, but when you're a manager now, now that was just a bit of a fallacy. I joined in if a team was one player down sometimes with England, because normally you'd get
a lad over from the reserves to join the first team. If somebody's pulled a muscle or whatever, cause you're training sessions, you need them for a reason. So if you want eight V-8 you know, it's not working if it's eight V-7. So I would step in with England because we didn't have a reserve side. It was a squad that was there and I was still young enough to just about get around and play. So once that ball comes out,
you do as best as you can. That's all that was. And it
was on very isolated, you know, it's what press, it was a
perception that somebody, some press had picked up,
but it wasn't about that. It wasn't I had my career, but no, I had more patience than anyone. And that's what Arsène Wenger saw in me before I saw it myself. Actually he said, "Have you thought about
going to coaching?" When I had a knee problem
in Monaco the last year. And I said, no, not really. I hadn't thought, but he said, "Glen, I think
you should think about going into coaching or management." He said, "You've got a
patience with players." You've got this, you've
got this, you know, you know the game. And it was, that was
the first seed actually that was planted in my mind. When I was injured for a year with me, with me, with me knee. So, and then I started to look at the game a little bit different actually with through sort of
coach's eyes for a year, rather than as a player. - I love that philosophy of, of wanting to go in and improve players. And it sounds almost self-evident. But did you ever find players that weren't interested in improving or weren't open to new ideas? - There was a few, you know,
that were quite what I'd call. Can I use the word embarrassed? Not embarrassed, but not through me, but I was trying to give them things and trying to make, but I'm I, there was a, not many, but there were a few
on a handful that you, I think I'm not sure they want to actually put the yard, yards in. I would tell 'em about that wall. And I'd say, "Look, let's go and do, and I'd do some drills with 'em and I'd say, look, there's no reason why you can't spend as much
as many hours as you want. And I'd keep an eye on that kid or player. And I'd never, I'd see
him going after training and he wouldn't be out there. And I thought, well, you can only... In the end in life, you can
only lead a horse to water. It's an old saying, but can't make him, you
can't force him to drink. So I thought, well, I'll
leave that with you. That's your, that's your problem. And he was probably happy where he was at the level he was at. It was like, sometimes
there was not like almost, I'm not sure I can do this. So they were, they were scared. There was a fear in him to
actually go to another level. If you see my point
and that was quite sad. And as much as you can try and you can't force them to do it, but you give 'em an opportunity. You give 'em a chance. I love giving people second chances. I did that with my
academy, things like that. But in the end you have to leave them. If they're not gonna, and then use your energy, then goes on the people that are positive and that are gonna be, you
know, improve the team. - So the high you went
in terms of as a coach, eventually as a national team manager. What kind of mindset did you
find amongst players there when you were coach? - Much easier. - Was it? - Much easier. They were, they were the reason why they
were playing for England. Their minds were strong. They wanted to get the
best out of themselves. They wanted to achieve things. They would always set the bar high. You know, that's what
international football, you know, people like Paul
Scholes and Alan Shearer, when you're working with those and young Michael Owen comes in at 18, blows us all away. You know, David Beckham,
wonderful players. Paul Ince, great leaders we had as well in that team. But every single one of them
like myself, when I was a kid, if that ball went under their
foot, it would hurt them, their pride in their performance
wanting to become better. And this is obviously a world
level is gonna world cup. So you obviously gotta be better. Is every level go that you go up. No, they'd push themselves. I had, I can't remember
any England player. None of them, none of them that I'd say, not sure he really wants it. Wants to get the best out of himself, every single one of them. And that's the reason why
they were playing for England. You know, cause they're at their best. - I'm really interested in this
conversation around England because although you were
a brilliant footballer, it's very different when you're a manager and you got the England job at 38. Right? Which seems young to me. But I suppose the older you
get the younger everyone seems, but 38 years old. Was there any element of imposter syndrome when you turned up for the very first time in front of those world class, England, internationals? - It was a, I'd be lying if I didn't say at 38, there's some ways of looking at it because sometimes when you're only 38 and I'd only just finished playing at 38, I don't only just hung me boots up. So my mind actually is, was still very much in
touch with a player. If you are like now, if I'm
64, you bridge that gap. But it's a long time since I've played going through that emotion of playing. So I was in touch with that. If you see all my point, you know. Yes, it was young to be
in the national football. And probably I took the job in the end. I had tough decisions to
make blah, blah, blah. But in the end I thought, how can you turn your country down? I might never ever get
that opportunity again. It might be something I regret
for the rest of my life. Did I think I was too young? Football wise, no. And nothing that proves, I
think I was 61% win percentage. So I think I've proved
that I wasn't too young on the football front. I had some great players to work with. We were going places, believe me. We were playing some beautiful football, great football playing three at the bank, bit different to what you
know, the norm was at the time. Looking back now, would you say 38 and the situation for the
England job off the pitch, dealing with the press,
dealing with the media dealing blah, blah, blah, probably yeah. I'd deal with that much easier now without a shadow of a doubt. But was I too young to
take that job at 38? If I'd have come out with a well, didn't qualify for the world cup, come out with, I dunno,
25% win percentage, whatever it may be. I think, yeah, actually
Glen, you were too young, but I don't think I was, if I'm honest. And I think a lot of
the way we were playing, the way we were going on, I think that's the frustration of the job losing the job when I'd lost the job. It was where we could have took it, where we could have took it. And the exciting thing for
me was always about Rio. Funny enough, Rio
Ferdinand was a wonderful, wonderful center-back. He was a Rolse Royce of a center-back, but believe me, he never had the opportunity
to play in a back three. And I'd have had him
playing in a back three, which would've took him to another level and would've took England to another level because he would've been coming out a bit like the Germans play their sweeper. I'd have had him coming out on the ball, even off the ball. Cause I knew he could
cope going into midfield, making a spare man. And then we would do so there, there was, that's just one example
where I felt we were going with a crop of experienced players and the crop of young,
exciting players as Rio, Michael Owen, David
Beckham, and Paul Scoles. As long as also still
having your Shearers, and your Adams and your sharing them, the experience was still there. And you know what, any manager worth his
soul will always say, that's the template. That's the formula, the balance that you want. Experience with talent, young talent. We had some players, you know, what we could have done was frustrating not to have that opportunity. - So if we touch on the reasons why that you didn't get the
chance to do that then in terms of the narrative that was around the interview that you gave,
that was around beliefs, that like, and as we've spoken about, they were your beliefs. It almost seems ridiculous
these days that, that nobody would criticize somebody if they had a Catholic belief
or a Christian belief or that, or they were a Muslim. And yet you were casted for your beliefs. - Well, it is strange
cause before the world cup, I spoke about my beliefs in the spirit and my beliefs and that
didn't seem to have any problems then, you know. I was on BBC radio, one, two,
whatever it was at the time, but there was no problems there. So suddenly you get a few, you know, we started off the
euros, we lost the first game. So you know what it's
like Jake in football. So there's a suddenly
the press, the change, there's a bit of a change. So suddenly that was looked into. Now, when it comes down to, I've gone on record on the book and that's never been my
belief about the disabled. It's never what I said, never what I would ever believe. What I said is that it it's
a much deeper conversation. I remember saying that at
the time it's a five hour, it's a lifetime conversation, not just a throw in conversation at the back end of talking about France, who was the reason why we were talking. So that's the reason why,
and then it exploded. And then in the end, the FA didn't show enough
strength really to back me. And it was pretty
evident there come a time when I thought these
people are not, you know, they're not backing me
here when they should be. And it was pretty evident that there was a part of me saying, I don't wanna work for
these people anymore. And it went the way it was, but on the football front that was the real frustration that I knew where we could
have gone with that team or that squad. It was a team that was
ready to be even better than the team that we took to France for the world cup in '98. And the way we would've played, you know? Yeah. Looking back in life, you know, that was the most frustrating thing as a, in my football career. - Do you feel you needed more support? I mean, you were.. - Yeah. - How old were you when
you lost your job there? - What could only been 40, 41, but the FA wasn't like the FA is now. The infrastructure, what it is, it's... There wasn't, it was, there's not enough people really there. - How'd you mean? - Supporting you. You know, there was a lot of stuff went
on that I thought was quite, at the time they were doing their best, but there wasn't enough personnel to cover every single angle because the job got really big over probably about six or seven years. A little bit before me, you know, we had the euros in England. The thing exploded if you remember in '96 and I don't think the FA went with it. So there was always this, you always felt you were a
little bit out on a limb at times for that job. - You sort of left your
own devices you made. - Yeah. That interview is a prime example. You know, someone should
have been with me, someone should have been saying, you know, at the goodness of my heart, I said, I had a five minute conversation with him. He went off on an angle about my beliefs. And I said, yeah, I've been on radio explaining that. And I said, look, and in the end, I thought
this where's this going? It keeps bringing up the disabled. And in the end I said, no, well, you know, it's a five hour discussion. Let's leave it at that. And that was it. I didn't think anything
of it to be quite honest at the time. And then it exploded. So I think someone, it wasn't
as professional as it is now, or became probably, you know, a lot very quickly after that in many ways, that's a prime example. Someone you know better than anyone, someone the press man probably
should have been with me to say stop the interview
there or whatever. - It's very difficult. Isn't it? From your perspective? I just, I wonder whether they're, despite the fact you
were a brilliant player and they had this great career and that ended up as the England manager instead of being celebrated and everyone looking for
positivity everywhere. I wonder whether there was elements where people were
determined to misunderstand what was going on. - I can't really off, I can't answer that for you, Jake. That's that's for other
people to, I wouldn't know. All you do is you get your
head down and you do your job. You do what you know you're good at and do it as best as you can. And that's what we were doing. - But during that period, Glen, like where like famously Eileen jury was somebody that's always
associated with you. Like what, what did you have to do to
get the buy in from the FA to be able to bring in someone like that? - Well, what it was, that was slightly different. Some, but actually I
mentioned it the other day and somebody looked at me and said, "I didn't realize you knew
her when you were 17." They thought I'd just brought
her in at that England time. The reason I brought that, cause again, it goes back to my favor at 17, 18. She healed my hand. She healed me. Virtually, I was out for
two months and it was. - And how did you meet her? How did that relationship? - Well, it was just by pure chance. I took her daughter, Michelle out one day and it was just went back to their house and that was it, that's how we met. But that was when I was 17. So when that happens and then I went back for different times and same thing sort of happened and she was healing me
and I was like, wow, the trigger didn't, it
didn't really drop actually. It didn't make me search a little bit more like I did when I was 28. So I went all through them years thinking, this is great. This is, we've stayed friends. And so someone when I
said about England said, "I didn't realize you knew
her when you were 17." I said, yeah, that's the reason why. And I'd used her at club level. So she had done some
fantastic work with players. And I'd seen it and they'd seen it. So why would you not use it? It was like an extension to
the medical staff in many ways. Why would you not use it
for your good at England? And we did that. We did it for months before and then suddenly like
everything there's just, someone was gonna get out. So I said, right, let's bring it out. Let's say it before it's done. And I just said, yeah, we use a healer. I've used them, you
know, blah, blah, blah. But knowing that possibly you, you were gonna back in
the day, particularly, you're gonna get, that's
gonna get spun, but I thought, well, let's preempt it
rather than wait for them to, to say what they wanna say and that's... But I've, I knew about
healing when I was in France. I went to a healer, a guy called Dominic and experienced that when I was even at Monaco. So listen, I've experienced it. It works. And it works for many people. And it's worked for me and
my family for many years, since I've been playing, since
I've been England manager. Is a part of my spiritual life. It's you cut your finger, right? You don't think about it. What happens in three or four days' time? - Heal it up. - Starts to heal. And that's about even thinking about it. So there's people out there
that can accelerate that. That's all it is, you know? And that's the simplified
way of looking at it. And so that's why I was doing it. And that's why I used it on players. It was almost like for me,
in my mind, it was natural. It was normal. And it was an extension to the
medical staff in many ways. - It's a bit like the conversation
at the beginning though. Like, I wonder whether you
were ahead of your time in these kinds of conversations. And I think now if someone
said that people would go, well, you know what? - Try it. - Let's be open minded. Give it a whirl. Again, what's the worst that can happen? Nothing bad. What's the best that can happen? You heal quicker, but 20 odd years ago. - Yeah. But even it's different
even you're right, Jake, but also even scientifically,
they'll tell you that, that how things change, energy changes. Where energy really,
your body, your cells, they're all connected
to this consciousness that I'm talking about. If you put your mind in a positive mind, your cells and your atoms
change you as a person, your demeanor change. We know it. Science tells us this,
medical people are telling us, you know, we still say in
the world's flat, you know, it's a flat world. - No, listen, science is optimists. - Absolutely. - Better things, good
things happen to optimists. That is absolutely scientifically proven because of your mindset. - Because you're a magnet. You can draw positive or negative. Simple as that. When you think about it, your mind is such a powerful tool. You're like a magnet thinking
for yourself as a magnet. So you could, your choice is you can
be positive on anything or negative wherever it is. And I think that's, that's
something that's, you know. - I'm sure you would've had to draw on the positivity after that experience. How does it still hurt the
way the England job ended and? - No, it doesn't hurt. - And the missed opportunity- - Frustration, right. Frustration. On the football side. On the other side, if
people don't understand, that's, they're where they're
at in their own lives, but on the football side,
having that taken away, if we'd have lost five games on the trot and it looked like we
weren't gonna be qualifying for the euros that time. And then I go a, you know, I'd probably resigned
thinking no someone else needs to take over, but
it wasn't that case. So the frustration of one for me, the frustration is the
players that we had, the excitement of playing
those young players, gelling them even more
for another two years were the experienced players
that I had was exciting, really exciting with the
young Rio, for instance, what I was gonna do with
the three at the back then, you know, so all them
things were really exciting. So the more excited you about,
and then it's taken away, it's natural. You're gonna feel frustrated but not hurt. - And you'd obviously been
through that world cup in France, where David Beckham was famously sent off. Did that experience, you
know, driving on the example, you spoke up with John Sayer at Tortenhum, bring the team together
and galvanize the team where you felt that would've
enhanced it as well? - Well, we actually, obviously
we went out on the day. So if we'd have got through that game, which we so closely, we came very close to getting
through him with 10 men. No, David's situation was
a poor refereeing decision. That was a yellow card. I think most people would
say it was a yellow card. I was shocked when I saw the red, but as a manager at that moment, you have to think what you gonna do next. That's what the country wanted. That's what I had to do as a manager is what you gonna do next? So my decision making was quickly what I was gonna do with the pitch. Do I take another striker off? I kept two on, we did what we had to do. Terry Burm went in and looked
after David at that moment. I think if we would've stayed in the, in the tournament, if we would've won the
penalty shoot out, my word. That would've, I think
galvanized this even more, that the belief levels
that beat a team like that with 10 men when we were so close, we thought we'd gone through
with the golden goal. So the emotion that I've
never been involved in, such an emotional game as that, the ups and downs of that
game are quite incredible. It really was. So, you know, eventually
we got knocked out. So we, I can't really give
you that answer at that time, but... - What I meant in terms
of like Beckham obviously came back stronger as a character- - David did. - So if you'd have had him
richer for that experience, you think that would've enhanced? - Yeah I mean, what happened to David was
a disgrace at the beginning. You know, how the country
treated him in many ways. He showed such strength to come back and have the career that he did. Such strength. - What are your memories of that time? I mean, were you putting
your arm around him? Did you speak to him? - I spoke to him after, after the game, I spoke
to him in the morning after the game. His emotions were flying with everyone. I was emotional going into the
press conference afterwards, writing me book about having
a tear with Michelle Farra, my PA you know, just bumping into her before
I went in the press con had to go at the world's
press in this Titanic game. We'd just been knocked
out with all them things. And I see'em crying their eyes out. And with Joe and I just
burst into tears myself, cause I could see where they
felt about how I felt really, but I couldn't do that. But I had to, gather me thoughts before
I went in through that door and then face the media on that night. So that was tough. That was tough doing that, but I was proud of the
way the boys had played. So it was quite... - Do you remember what you said to them to put that behind you as a scored, as a team to go forward, positively? - You have to put that
there wasn't much said after in the dressing room. That wasn't the time to... Everyone was just so gutted. You know, I just, I think
my words to them would, were I was, your country would be proud of you the way we'd perform with 10 men for that length of time. Young Michael, what he did on the day, he announced himself for that gold, didn't he, to the world? And played so well, so maturely in not having to take him off, I kept Alan Shearer and him on. And he did the job on right hand side, all the individual performance. I said, "They'll be proud of you and you should be proud of yourself." And that was it. After the game, there was no, you can't gain into any
reasons why, blah, blah, blah. They put a fantastic, a
Titanic performance in and we didn't get the
little bit of good fortune. On the penalty shootout, when your opponents miss like they did, the most important
penalty is the next one. You score that, then you
pile so much pressure and that opportunity was
there and we missed it. They missed, we missed. And that was that moment
where you think, ah, when you look back, that was the time when I think we'd have gone through, but that's where you have
to take them opportunities. - I often think about your
managerial career Glen, as like, there's a great analogy by the old GE leader, Jack Welsh, where he says, when he
was a young manager, he blew up a factory and he was worried about getting sacked. And when he went to his manager, he said, "I'm not gonna sack you. You've just made the most, you just had the most expensive lesson you could ever learn in life." And when I think about you in '98, you had the situation
beforehand with Paul Gascoigne and leaving him out. And then in the tournament you had, the David Beckham incident
and got knock out. What did you learn from that that made you a better manager after? - I think the only thing
I think you can learn is that you have to, you have to do things because
you feel they're right at the time. You have to experience those things, whether that you're right or wrong. But it's the decision
that you have to make, that you feel is right at the time. Gaza was left out at the time because of his injuries, really. The press didn't wanna hear
that when a name was called, it was more about the
story that it was gonna be, but it was... - The story what that he
smashed up your hotel room door? - Well, again, he thumped
the door with his hand, with his wrist. - That was it. - That was it. So that's how, you know, the... Hey, listen perception's
better than the real thing. Isn't it? When it comes to stories. - What did you actually say
to him in that hotel room? - Well, it wasn't just Gaza, I'd eight. I had seven other players
that I had to talk to them. I wanted to talk to them face to face and tell'em face to face. You know, I think that
was the way to do it. That's the way I would've
liked to have had it done if I was playing. So that's what we did. But Paul Paul really was the saddest case I've ever had to tell, not the toughest decision,
the saddest decision, because he played in all the, the qualifying games he'd
done well, when he was fit, I'd had that chat with him
about six months before, when we had just qualified, I think we were playing Cameroon. I don't think he was fit, but I had a chat with him and said to him, "Look, you're up at Middlesbrough, you've got to get yourself fit." He had a knee and a calf problem. I said, "You, this is a world cup. It made you in 1990, you are still good enough to
have a wonderful world cup." So the plan was to keep him, obviously. I mean, the last person I'd
have wanted to leave out, but at the end of the day, he was struggling with his fitness. And that was the problem. And that was a sort of a problem as an England manager as well. Cause you're leasing the
car, they're not yours. You know, they go away to their, to their clubs and then you
get 'em back for two weeks and then they go away again. You can't be with them every day. So I knew he was struggling with his, but I gave him right to
the last game, Morocco. And I thought, just get
through the game, Gaza. I just said, just get through this game. And unfortunately he got, he got carried off with a hematoma, which was gonna be out for
another two and a half weeks. The guys tell me what with
his knee and his calf, I just couldn't take the risk. And it was down to injury
at the end of the day. So that was the saddest
decision I had to make. But you know, there are
things that you have, you make the decisions cause you think it's the right thing at
the time for the squad. If I would've felt he'd have
had any chance of playing, then I would've took him. But it would've been, I
reckon it would've been, would've had to get to the, probably the semifinals before he was maybe even might have been fit. So yeah, that was a decision I had to make and it was a tough one. It was a tough one, but not the toughest. The toughest is letting
youngsters go, it's winding. And when they're you're
telling them, you can't, you're not gonna be a pro. That was the toughest. So that was early in my management career. So anything after that was gonna be a, a little bit easier than it was. - So do you feel those experiences, like we were talking offer before around when you first went into Swindon at four, within four weeks, you were having to chat the dreams of these 18 year old boys. How did you learn to do that
whilst still retaining the, your basic decency and humanity? - To be honest, that was
a massive shock to me. I mean, when you get asked
to go and be a manager, go from a player to a footballer to go swinding then
you're thinking, right. You're thinking about the team, they were down the bottom. So we had to get safe first. Eight games to go, thinking
about the training. You think about what quality
of the players we got, you know, then the youth team
manager comes in and said, "Look, Glen, in April, we've got this, we've got tell the players that are," and I hadn't seen that many of them play. So I thought, well, I'm
gonna have to give them my, and I remember watching
a couple of youth games. It was from reserve games at the place. So I had to do that as well just to, but it was only three games or so. I had to go with really what, what the youth team manager was saying and what the people that
had already seen them, the reserve team manager. So it was a little bit of no idea, but the decision of
actually sitting them down in the office with them and going through and then breaking down,
you know, in front of... That was the toughest thing. And I'm thinking I've only
been manager five weeks. It was a real shock to me. It really was. But then it was only then
that I started to think, you know what? These guys are too young. They're too young, 18 years of age. Some of them were like skinny, just had a, a growth spurt. One of them had been
injured for a year before. He was never gonna be able to show, show how good he was. And it was then that a little
seed went in my mind then that one day I'm going to
put an academy together for players that are gonna
be released from clubs because you can bet your one dollar. The one thing in football, every single year in every club in Europe, there's a conveyor belt
of players being released, cause there's only like not even 1% of the players get through and signed. So I'm thinking what a wastage
to give them a second chance to give them that extra
time that they need. Some, you know, like your Wayne Rooneys
and your Michael Owens, your Rio Ferdinands,
they're easy to spot at 18, but there's so many that can mature later or there's reasons why they
haven't produced cause of injury or mentally they're not strong enough. At 18, if we all think
back to when we were 18, we're different, completely
different weren't we? So that was then I thought I'm
gonna do something about that later in my career. And it was that day when
I reflected and thought it's too early, it's too early. And I proved that over the years actually, there was a couple of
players I was gonna release. And soon as I said they were
gonna release, you know what? They started to play incredibly well. Wayne Sullivan was one of them at Swindon. And in the end he got a contract
and I moved on to Chelsea and Johnny Gorman took
over as manager at Swindon. I remember watching the Em
field Wayne Sullivan playing and eight, two weeks, sorry, two months before the end of
that season when I was manager, when we got promotion, we said we were gonna release
him, but we were gonna, he was gonna play every reserve game. So the Scouts could watch
him to get another team. And in the end, because
the chains came off him, he was so anxious and worried
about getting a contract. He played unbelievable, Jake. - It's a great lesson there, isn't it? - Absolutely. And we went, give him a year's contract, see how he does. And he was playing at Am
field, at Old Trafford. He got himself and I was
looking at on the tellie going, "Well done, son." I felt so proud what he did. And it was brilliant. It was brilliant. But it just shows you
sometimes about the anxiety of a young player as well. You don't know yourself, you nowhere near knowing yourself at 18 and there's so many stresses and anxieties about contracts and trying to play and all going with the
first team or whatever. All the managers here. I went through it. I remember Bill Nicholson. If he was walking down the corridor, I was looking for a... I was looking for a cubby hole
or a broom cup to dive into, get out the way cause
your intimidation really. But you know, there's all the things that
as a youngster you go through that stop, you actually performing. And it was a lovely lesson for me. And it was great to see Wayne. - Power of the chains off, aye? - Yeah, it's almost like a nice circle from where we started. There into where you said
about learning about not, not getting caught up
in those small things. - Absolutely. Yeah. - Anxiety. - Well, you're now sitting here as a man who has the chains off because of what's happened to you. It's, you've had your mind open. And I think one of the, one of the nice things
I've heard you say before, and it was close to
not being a nice thing, but you are one of the few
people walking in the earth who knows how it feels to be celebrated while you're still here. Most people, it's not a good ending
to their cardiac arrest and the celebrations of
what they've achieved and the way they live their life happen without them seeing it. You've been in this amazing situation where you've seen the outpouring of love and the fear that we all
have for you in your life. And you're still here to, to savor it and to have
a genuine understanding of what you mean to millions
of people around the world. But most of all, to your family and especially
your grandchildren. - Yeah. I was very, very lucky, very lucky. And you were a part that day as you know. And we've had that conversation ourselves, which is quite incredible. Cause the thing about that
actually as well, Jake, is that it was really my
family and everyone else that went through distress
cause I was unconscious. I was gone, really. Let's be fair. If it wasn't for Simon, but then I'm in the
hospital and I'm out of it. The next thing I know is when
I came round in the hospital, so all this was happening and then it, it was a good point you make, it was almost like, it was almost like I did go and people were talking about and no I'm still here sort of thing. I haven't gone and I have to, I have to have that
sense of humor about it. I have to, often I say to people just to, it's my sort of sense of humor, I suppose. And it's happened to me so I can say it, but I used to say things were... It's amazing now you, when you hang your boots up
or as a sportsman you finish, you become a better player or
a better manager or whatever. And then when you pass, you become, you become even better player. So it's, I went through that
and it's a strange one to, well, not a strange one, a good one to come out
at the other end yeah. - Can I ask you a question about it, Glen? That there's two types of
values people talk about. They talk about your
resume or your CV values. So the sort things you write down, when you're looking to go for a job, I'm a hard worker, I'm disciplined, but then does your obituary values. The sort of things people say to you when you're no longer
here that you were kind, you were decent, you were caring. Would you say that they've
changed for you now? The difference of how you
would've described your values before to now? - Yeah I don't wanna disvalue
what we have to do on in life. In this... It's like a film really. Think of life as a film and we
are the actors in many ways, we've gotta play our part
and it's how we play our part is more important than what
we achieve playing the part. So yeah, I think nowadays with the experience and what I've been searching and unfolding for many years now. Yeah, it's more important the way that we, this is what real life is. As I said earlier on in the conversation, we can't take our successes,
our earthly successes, our material successes. Yeah, they're important to a degree, but they're not the reason why we're here. So the CV you're talking about doesn't really mean that much. It's the other side that is the lessons. That is what we're trying to unfold, what we're trying to
find within ourselves. And you know, that's the
journey that we're all on. - So when you were hearing some of these, I don't wanna use what
term obituaries about you, about your brief passing. What were the values that
people said about you that really resonated that you thought, that is how I'd like to be remembered? - Listen, you wanna, you wanna be remembered with
some of the achievements that you do on, in your career. Of course you do. I'm not saying that means nothing, but it's more, you know, the relationships that
you have with people doing them things, whether
it was on the pitch, whether it was a manager, whether it was working
on TV, everyday life. The person that I met in the
coffee shop just a minute ago, before I come here, that is life. That is the most important
thing at that time in that coffee shop to
me, that is that moment. We can't do anything about yesterday and we can't do anything about tomorrow, but at that moment we
are living in the moment. And that is the most, that guy was the most
important person to me when I was talking to him and
I had a photo done with him and we chatted. And that was the most important,
important thing in my life. I couldn't do anything
about this conversation now we're having, and tonight
I can't do anything now. I will do later on whatever it is. And that's really how you see life, yeah. - I love that sense of presence. We always finish with
some quick fact questions. - Oh no. - Oh yeah. What would you say are
your three non-negotiables for living a high performance life? What are the three values
that you hold most dear? - Touching on what I was saying, one I've come straight to mind is to be honest with yourself. I think until you can
be honest with yourself, you can't be honest with anyone else. I've learned that over the years. Maximize your performance, if you like. Maximize yourself. If it doesn't work, but
you've given everything, I'm useless at crosswords, but if I've given everything
and I can't do any better, I've done my best. So I think give everything. I think it's a bit of a fallacy sometimes that we think hard work, you've gotta work hard to achieve. Not necessarily. You might be doing the wrong
thing, working hard to achieve. I think if you go within, you
find out what you can achieve. So go within yourself, a little bit of what we've
been speaking about as well. - If you could go back to
one moment in your life, what would it be and why? - Cool. Well, in football terms or? - Anything at all. - Well, having that enlightenment, I think when I was younger
at some stage in my 20s, would've been magnificent for me. So yeah, I would like to
have had that enlightenment. What I've... Hey, listen, I've still got
lots and lots and lots to learn and to go on, but that
would've been special for me. And I think that, I just think, you know, if people like Jake,
you made a great point. What are you gonna lose? If you're, if anyone out there youngster. Car, dear, believe me. If you can tap into it and find yourself and find out who you are
and really what you are and go on that road, that journey, life will become so
much different for you. - We had a guest actually. And we asked her about when people don't believe
this kind of stuff, as in, they're not interested
in pursuing or exploring. And her phrase was, she said, "How's cynicism working out for you?" It's a good point, isn't it? - It's a good point. - What's cynicism gonna do for you? How important is legacy to you, Glen? - Well, again, as I've said, I... the legacy for anyone let's look at the top
business people in the world, multimillionaires and the
most successful sports people, whatever yeah. We've put an imprint. We've put a little imprint on this planet, but it's not, your legacy
is deep down inside. It's what you've, how
you've achieved things, how you've treated people. They're the things that go on. They're the things you take with you. If you like it, if you
wanna say it's a spirit, if you wanna say your
consciousness, whatever, I believe that's, they're
the things you take with you. The other stuff is left down here. So your legacy is how you treat people. - What advice would you
give to a teenage, Glen, who is just starting out on his journey? - On a football career? Listen, but take in what
you feel is good for you. And don't, you know, decide yourself what's right for you. But listen, don't have a closed mind that you won't listen to anyone. I took a lot of advice and things in, but I decided what suited me
as a player and what didn't. So I would say that is the most... And that's again being yourself,
being true to yourself. Now there's 10 years, 15, 20 years later, you might change your mind on something that you've made when
you're 18 or a youngster trying to make it. And the other thing I'd say to
a young kid, without a doubt, without a doubt, and I wish I'd have, I wish there was a pill for it. And there isn't a pill for it, is fear. A sportsman with fear is... you are gonna debilitate yourself. You have to nullify the fear. And as a kid we're, there's fear. The chains that we're talking about. If you can take your, the fear out of you, you'll be amazed at what you can achieve. And I think looking back that's, that's one big thing that I would, that I would look back and change. We all had fears and there were things that we didn't really need to
worry about in the end guys, and that's experience teaches you that. But if you could have that,
when you were younger, my word, the world's your oyster. - Fantastic. And the final question is
always in this podcast, it's kind of your final message, really, for the people that have sat
and listened to this hour or so we've had in each other's company
is you are one golden rule for living a high performance life. What is the, what's the one kind of north
star for you in your life? - Well, I don't know
about high performance. I know that's the words
we're talking about, but yeah, just get on. Love each other. It's the most beautiful thing you can do is love each other, whatever. It's easy to love your kids, isn't it? But it's a bit tougher
to go down that road. But I think that's what, what I've been talking about all day is really what I think
we're talking about. That purity, that consciousness inside us, that spirituality is about love, kindness. All them things are really
important in this day and age, especially at the moment
after we come through COVID. We all seem to get a little bit closer to that love for each other, didn't we? Cause we're all in the
same boat around the world, but unfortunately, I'm
not sure we've learned too much about it. With politics and what we're
seeing now, straight away, soon after this dreadful pandemic, we should have pulled us all together. Unfortunately we, I think we
are just slipping back into, into the old ways. - I couldn't agree more. And Glen, thank you so much
for sitting and talking with us there are people that would've
tuned into that thinking, oh, I'll hear a conversation about the good old Tortenhum days. And you know, but as
always on this podcast, it's a conversation with, some people think a former footballer, but as we know, it's a
conversation with a human being and that is what this is about. It's a human conversation about life. So thank you for being so- - Well, thank you. Thank you. Enjoyed it every minute. Thank you, cheers. (vibrant music) - Please hit subscribe. Hit the notification bell, give us a thumbs up, leave a review, but somehow get involved with
The High Performance Podcast and become part of our growing community. Thanks for being part of the adventure.
