Franciscan University Presents: Bringing Loved Ones Back to the Church

how can Catholics help those that they love children siblings parents friends find their way home to the Catholic Church join us today as we explore the answer to that question with our special guest dr. kerry Gress author of the book nudging conversions a practical guide to bring those you love back to the church I'm Michael Hernon vice president of advancement at Franciscan University in Steubenville Ohio and you're watching Franciscan University presents stay with us [Music] [Music] welcome to Franciscan University presents I'm your host Michael Hernon vice-president of advancement here at Franciscan University in Steubenville Ohio we'll be talking about a nudge in conversions today I'm joined in our studio with our regular panelist dr. regis martin professor of systematic theology here at Franciscan University and dr. Scott Hahn who holds the father Michael Scanlon share in biblical theology and the New Evangelization again here at Franciscan and we're joined by a very special guest dr. Kerry Gress you hold a doctorate in philosophy from Catholic you an MA from Franciscan University which I'm so proud to have alums on the show you served as their Rome bureau chief for Zenith their English edition and your mother of four your family live in Virginia and you're the author of motherhood the ultimate makeover as well as the co-author with George whyville on city of saints and today we're we talking about nudging conversions a practical guide to bringing your loved ones back to the church so welcome to the show thank you are we here yeah I'm so excited you're here because this is a very important topic for for us in general as Catholics and it's at the forefront of the mind of those leading the church today but before we get into kind of the heart of the book why did you write it what inspires what rooted to write this book you know I I didn't plan on writing this book it wasn't like I thought I should write a book about about evangelization in fact I largely would leave that to be to the experts but one afternoon I was I was at Mass on I was there were these two women and they were arguing who had more children away from the church and III engaged them and I just start adding and one of them was quite elderly and she said that she had many hip replacements and I said well are you offering that up for your kids and she said no I usually just complain about it and say you know after chatting I as I was driving home I realized that I've given her three different things to think about and I thought why don't I just add three more and make an article and once the article was published then someone suggested that I get into a book and and so that's what it's really turned into but it certainly wasn't something that I about doing at all in fact you know like I said there are other people who have done it and can do it well but it did seem like there were some experiences from my life that had really you know made it clear to me that there were there were some easy ways to evangelize that we don't normally think oh that's so great that is great well and I believe there's a little connection here with the university when yes absolutely well when I first was a student here I was kind of revert to the faith and my family would they thought it was crazy my mom thought I had joined a cult and you know it's just a saw it awkward situation when I would go home for holidays and things like that but I desperately wanted my family to convert and so you know I threw out my new apologetic skills with them and you know was making arguments and nothing seemed to work in fact it just seemed to really pushed my family members away and so at one point I finally was under the direction of father Dan poppy here at Stephenville and he suggested that I start spending an hour every day in adoration and of course I thought he was crazy because I was working in school full-time like who has time to do that but anyway I've read E&T followed his his recommendation and as a result just all these insights started coming to me about my family I had a lot of time to pray for them but also just to realize that I was going about reaching them in all the wrong ways and that there was really a much easier way to do it so it's great to be back here and just you know me back at the port and where all these prayers were really came to me and were said and and to see the fruit of it now in this book well I love it I love that it's born out of a desire to help other people you could see a real need but born out of prayer before our magic Lord right when we think about evangelization for Catholics this is even though we've been talking about evangelization for many many many years particularly a new evangelization but there's it's still intimidating for a lot of Catholics there's still a lot of fear not in stepping out what really is that fear what is that what scares Catholics away for all evangelist I think several things I think I want the one thing that I noticed and talked a lot about in this book is that we often think of evangels a as something of a debate and we have to have all the answers before we're going into it or we have to think only I could just say this to them or and what I discovered in prayer was this is the complete wrong way of going about it that in fact it's it's much more fundamental as far it's about building relationship and about showing that you involve people and having that kind of foundation but then from there things can grow but if people feel like you're trying to sell them something I think we all kind of know that you know but there's there's almost a Salesman feeling about it and I think also people have just had bad experiences I know I did is you know initially just making recommendations or you know trying to engage people in arguments and this just wasn't where they were they weren't thinking in terms of apologetic issues they were thinking more how do I live my life and and and I was thinking how do I make the church relevant to them I love I'm really struck by the examples that you cite because they suggest that reason has its limits I mean way of that famous dictum from Moscow the art has reasons anthem of which reason knows nothing and maybe up as you put it in your book in a very winsome phrase a reason has been placed on the chopping block edge reaction and that may be the case so it's not so much a matter of reaching for the best possible syllogism may your life the force of your example your prayers that will turn out to be more efficacious in the end and it seems to have been borne out by these illustrations now absolutely I think um you know I saw dramatic changes with my family and I mean you know over time because we're building relationship we're trying trying to get to a point where people know that we love them and then they come to have this fundamental trust and so then it's much easier to convey the faith because they wonder what makes you different why are you listening why do you care why are you trying to reach me on the places where I need to be met instead of you know just making an argument or trying to find that perfect phrase that will turn someone's heart and you know with a doctorate in philosophy you obviously know the value of reason these limitations as well I think we also have all experiences sort of conversion as a sales technique you know just as you had Fuller Brush salesman going door to door when I was growing up as a kid so we still have people going door to door and I suppose there's nothing wrong with that but there really is a sort of you know sales approach and it's a different vision of what evangelization and conversion and tail and even though we could accommodate that as Catholics I think we recognize that conversion is necessarily ongoing and it's it has much more to do with relationships and I'm fortunate because I look back on my own Protestant formation and the approach that I was taught it wasn't so much taught as caught because it was Incarnation 'el it was a friendship and there was an older fellow who was at the University of Pittsburgh investing his life and me and we had shared experiences and so as a result of that when I go to a retreat you know it was much easier for me to just hear it and believe it because I had seen it I had enjoyed it but I think that's what you do in this book you just give so many practical tips but then with each tip you also give very personal examples anecdotes that just show us that in everyday life if we are praying for reading if we're really attentive to the people around us and in deep spiritual needs we can be the instrument that God uses like it you know in your book I thought the most telling line and it wasn't one that you had written but borrowed from some anonymous priest who defined evangelization as one beggar telling another look I find the food here's the bread come with me so that presupposes that people are hungry not for argument but for bread the bread of life right now and I think we're seeing that all I think that this is an incredible time to know how to properly evangelize people because the fact that people are so hungry there's so much you know the secular world has just enveloped us so much and people don't want something deeper I know one of the things that I wish I'd put more of in a book but I didn't have the experience to put that much in it I wrote it but I've talked to a lot of women who want their husbands to convert and you know you see this divine that happens between them so deeply and again you hear okay if I only I could just show him the right book or give him the right thing and instead the the division I think we need women it would be much better it would benefit much better if they trying to love their husband even more than they did before and and trying instead of the church becoming something that was dividing them because this is what the husband sees is you have this faith now and our relationship is not at all like it used to be instead of letting that be divisive kind of overcoming that and loving them you know more deeply many other culture tends to reinforce this idea that religion you know spirituality is a woman's thing anyway I know but I do think you're right I think that building a bridge of friendship and and being supernaturally natural with your spouse instead of just simply trying to change their mind and set them straight right because invariably it becomes an intractable it's not just a divisive thank you almost you know concretize two opposing positions what one fact you can't help but notice in your book you're constantly referencing hope friends I think your own analysis is of a piece with his particularly and evangelii gaudium it is really up his earliest exhortation shortly after becoming Pope and he is pretty insistent right you have to accompany people a journey with them you can't hit them over the head with the schoolbooks right you have to make the faith attractive when you proselytize you don't win converts but your life could be the bridge to belief yeah well I love the fact that I've got a room here of doctors you know and they're all talking about things that as a layman who doesn't happen to know a doctorate that that reason is vital is important no one's displacing that but the relationship the love the connectedness that all of us as Catholics share but this is a calling that we have this is an urgent calling we have what's the danger when Catholics don't respond to that call when we don't step out right I think the first danger is that it really makes our own face stale almost that you know we know we're called from the very beginning to be too off to give our faith to pass it on to others and that that is really a yeast in our own fate that it makes it grow and transforms it in ways that we can't imagine what we're giving it away and so I think there's that personal element of course of what we see but I think that the larger element is when we're not passing our faith on we end up with people who don't have it if you have barely example of the comedian whose name escapes me who's now if you really believe in everlasting life but you don't tell anybody about maybe you don't really like people in fact you meet them right I've only loathing for them or if you think a truck is coming to run you over maybe your first impulse ought to be to tickle this other fellow to save his life but Catholics don't get that exercise isn't that example of an atheist strike it absolutely a Penn Jillette is the name of comedian Penn & Teller's and really yeah and he's got this fantastic boat and he's making if he says this is if Catholics really believe there's no heaven in hell kernel consequences right I don't and I would be acting like somebody's standing and not seeing a truck coming right at them I mean hey I was thinking of that exact same anecdote and it just struck me that we really don't have authentic love if we're not prayerfully searching ways to build those bridges not just to connect with people in friendship although that's awesome right but to really allow Jesus to connect home friendship with them I mean if you don't transmit the good news then maybe you're telling people it's not so good right now it's optional and right now absolutely so when you think of evangelization is there a quick fix a one-size-fits-all like hey yo check this Bob or bull so now I there's no one-size-fits-all I think everybody's in such different places I think even just my own experience of a revert and dr. Han mentioned you know there's always be layers where we need to go deeper and deeper and so yeah if there was a quick fix I think we would have found it by now but it's it's really just a matter of trying to help people just heal and see how relevant the church is and how Christ is Christ the healer and wants to give them so much more than they even dream of it goes back probably at what Regis was talking about Pope Francis they don't omit that you find the person you get to know that you're in relationship with them you know their needs and where they're come well I think it was Pope Francis who reminded us that the real agent of evangelization is Christ and this approach is to look people directly in the younger with love and concern he really cared about people well and one of my favorite chapters in the book is where I talk about asking questions and as a philosopher of course everybody knows Socrates is the one that asks the first questions and all his famous for the Socratic method but I was astounded to see how many times Christ asked questions I'm shocked to look at Matthew's Gospel almost every chapter there's a question you know who do people say that I am and you know on and on and on and I think that is one of the you know the most underused tools of evangelization that's out there because question elicits from people something that telling them doesn't if you ask a question and if this a person gives an answer that is not very thoughtful it'll probably stick with them they'll go back and reconsider it and think maybe I don't really think that I've done or even when you verbalize something you realize that doesn't sound as you know as truthful as I thought it was when I before I articulated it so I think that's and it really just an incredible tool that it's so easy because it takes the pressure off of you and having you know spout facts or whatever but and just and leaves it in the ball and other court you know stay with us for the next segment of Franciscan University presents [Music] as our holy father has reminded us and it on Jillian's vitae we must first evangelize ourselves we must have an act of prayer and sacramental life before we can expect to be able to do anything else secondly to whoever we would wish to reach out to we must very clearly show that we care and love them before any mention of God or faith is made it must be made clear in our actions and our interest in our words and only then and the Lord will reveal the time that is right when a faith concept or something that will present itself will appear but it will be in God's time not ours people recognize Franciscan University as being academically excellent and passionately Catholic we have a unique opportunity through our faculty members through our students to proclaim that academic excellence by reaching out in many different ways we also remain passionately Catholic in the way in which we are able to worship the way in which we are able to bring that love of Christ to others on a daily basis it's important for us to be able to embrace both [Music] welcome back to Franciscan University presents we've been talking about nudging conversions a practical guide to bringing those you love back into the church with dr. Kerry Gress Kerry we set up a really nice platform I think that makes it accessible for those who don't have PhDs are professional evangelists that evangelization although we need truth we need reason is a lot about relationships and getting to know people accompanying them on their journey but in this all of us have been influenced by the culture what role does the culture play in evangelization well I think well our current culture is all anti evangelization or the anti evangelization I suppose because it's become so secular every if you just look at you know women's magazines and and most of things that are on TV they're really pushing us away from having a deeper relationship with Christ and moving into that even anything remotely prayerful and so I think that's the other important element about evangelization is that Catholics can really are you know we've been we look at Renaissance Europe we look at medieval Europe and that there's this creative impulse that always comes with Catholicism when it's lived deeply and that is something that we need to add Catholics be moving in and thinking about it's not just about our friends and family but what are the gifts that we have that we can be passing these along so that we are building up a real authentic in Christian culture instead of something that some you know doing the opposite word force I like the approach that you take because there's a progression you know everybody has family everybody has friends everybody is suffering to to offer up and in prayer and that sort of thing but the chapter on cultivating real culture and pinpointing the way of beauty you know it isn't our task to kind of create the civilization of love you know we just have like one brick to add to the wall but we have that brick you know there's a way to discover beauty and truth and to shared with others by inviting them I know you talked about having couples over and you know just having them bring one particular thing and it was when I put the book I'm like I want to do that you know as I mentioned to Kimberly why don't we have some couple / and just build those bridges by suggesting that they bring something that they want to talk about right yeah I just think that's a that's very concrete and very great practice absolutely and I think I mean one of the most concrete things that we can do is just turn the TV off when we have other people elbows mean that is and you go to somebody's house and there's three TVs on and and people are you can't ever get into a conversation that's anything much exactly and we're so we're already so we have both of the competition of the culture right hostile message right but we also are called to influence that culture and then our little little contribution tonight impacts and I like this image of the brick you know you can you can build of a brick or you can use the brick to smash windows you know there's very little it seems to me that it's dangerously naive to discount the culture and kanuk area nice you of culture it keeps bumping up against our being it's simply the embodiment of what we believe the incarnation of faith or the absence of faith and it will either liberate or oppress but it's not going away I mean Bonaventure speaks of the latter that extends from Earth to eternity and secularism would be the attempt to dismantle it to tear it down well culture Christian culture is the effort to rebuild that ladder and you encourage people to start climbing yeah so that they can finally disappear into the heart and mind of God that that's a tall order but it begins in a piecemeal way like inviting couples to your house to break bread together that's beautiful it's really about creating a subculture you know because if you're looking at our society today it's just you're bound to be intimidated they're overwhelmed because it really is a kind of nude Eve Angela's Asian you know and the fact is we can see it in our own lives and everybody else too that everybody is converting in one direction or another nobody really stands still you know as Bob Dylan sang after finding juices back in the 70s you got to serve somebody you know and by showing people the way to the Lord Jesus and doing it in a way that friendship Beauty culture you know you change even the town that you live in but you can widen and deepen that kind of family subculture that everybody I think tends to gravitate towards even if they don't understand why right that that lines that Pope Francis has it's pretty penetrating that you mustn't evangelize as though you had just returned from from human very salaam ulis fare me O Lord from dower st. right absolutely a saint you have to smile even Allah and you're walking into the cultural catastrophe I have to say I'm married to someone who's very melancholic and so joy is not his thing so I have to defend those who you know it's not maybe not your temperament but I think the other thing that speaks volumes is peace and I think that is one of the things that people we live in such a frenetic a fast-paced society everybody so emotionally stirred up I mean just looking at Facebook you go from the saddest story you've ever read to someone's had a baby it's emotional whiplash you're just constantly you know bombarded and so if you find somebody that's got this incredible deep peace I think that and that aunts couple of a joy or and or is a really important piece to be offering yeah I like that phrase you you have the tyranny of niceness I think we really do have to put right keep that at bay and and the distinction you make is very helpful if you can't smile 24/7 at least you can evinced a kind of peace right a calm a serenity and people notice that and if I did infectious right we're hanging on to it Mary Johnson and I think all the the peace that those those naturally that would draw people in come from a mature face you talk about tonight here and you know why is it important for the would be evangelists to have a mature face and what does that look like well I think simply you cannot give what you don't have I think that's just one of the most fundamental pieces of this book is if you don't have faith yourself and and you want to give it away you don't have anything to really offer and so I think that's a huge piece but as far as the the marks of mature faith and there's so many different signs I think again peacefulness and and joy but it's also knowing how to pray and knowing trusting God surrendering your life to Him all of these pieces are really you know great characteristics that I think you can even see in other people that there's there's a depths going on there this isn't something that you know next week when the new trend blows in I'll be doing something else or when I have a new set of friends I'll you know follow them on this down this road but there's something deeply rooted and holding you in place and then from there it's easier to pour that out to other so I think the most fundamentally the first thing you can do to in vandalize others is to try and make your own faith go deeper to spend more time in adoration spend maybe add another mass to your week if you don't go week days go once a week on it to a daily Mass those kinds of things to increasing your own prayer is is only going to make it easier to pass the faith on daughter I would like to stand up in defense of melancholic my wife Kimberly we all described as pathologically positive she's just the way for the matter of what Dad on the other hand tend to be neurotic Lee negative you know I'm not melancholic we have a couple kids who are but there really is a different kind of joy I think we just associate joy with a certain type of personality like more novel Indian yeah and the fact is peace and joy are like two sides of the same coin and I come and I can see it in several examples you cite when you when you keep your when you continually shift your mind to the eternal and you fix your heart on God then suddenly these circumstances of life just fall into place you know you might be going through really tough times at the same time you know that God is with you and I think that other melon coloreds are going to say that's the kind of joy I can relate to you know it isn't smiley bubbly sometimes that comes off as superficial particularly Camilla yeah that's right yeah it's a turn-off yeah I think that that when you go to the idea of peace and joy it's got to be genuine you know and people I think have very good detectors of people who are just superficial and have just nothing more than a veneer but a melancholic has oftentimes feels things more deeply and therefore this is a real it looks as shadows you know I think if my favorite character in the Narnia Chronicles is Pablo you know and he finds joy in the midst of darkness and smoke and seduction you know what he puts his foot in the fire it just kind of awakens that sense of there's something more there's something greater and I think melancholic scan often show the way not with some big bright Sun but a flashlight er you know a candle or something I I want to speak out and defend for your husband's like that others too who have that melancholy so there's a great line in Agustin love is my gravitation and where it goes I too must follow and it doesn't really matter how you're feeling on the way and the truth is not a function of temperament and it's much deeper and that's what we serve that's what we testify to and that line you have I counted it I think three times it popped up it's a sort of mantra you can't give what you don't have and if you don't have faith what is it that you're giving away yeah it makes me very enticing and I think those who have gone through suffering in the midst of that they have even more to give and some of those who may not have the right words or this or that but they have their own they are they are faithful in the midst of trial they are faithful through challenges I really think of that as a maturing experience in our lives and we hold fast to our faith in the midst of that that's the happy you had mentioned the whole business of hunger you know 13 and longing for God and and the beggar Thank You Sonny says he's the protagonist of history his arms are always outstretched because he's empty and he acknowledges his nothingness and begs God to to to stoop down bend over and give me your life your love but what do you do with people who say look I've got plenty of comfort food I call it money a job sex and power a style what do I need evangelizing right well and I think there's so many people that are out there like that I know I was recently had a shared a meal with some parents that their their college children had all left the faith Aaron left their children left the faith in college and how do you draw them back you've given them these fundamentals but you know they're washed away quickly and in these influential college years and how do you rebuild that because now they've got jobs they've got careers they're not interested in that and and that's one of things we're seeing among churches where there they are trying to to reach people at baptism and the First Communion of their children because it's that point that people start paying attention to the face but I think there's a lot to be said for really the church recognizing that we're always it's always relevant to be Catholic it's every aspect of your life but how are we packaging that how are we making that clear to particularly to those who are in college and and elsewhere that you know the money is great and style and all that's fine but it's only going to get you so far and maybe that really is where the role of suffering comes from you know it grounds us in such a way where we can see through these things in there you know some somebody once said that the the true enemy of myth is circumstance and sooner or later circumstance brings down myth that I'm sort of self-sufficient moving and manage just fine I'll Shepherd my own way into the kingdom in fact I'll contrive the kingdom in earthly terms so leave me alone that person is going to be struck down when I inevitably and that's when the hunger may show itself I need Yeller but between now and then I think those gentle nudges you know the continual reminder is not pestering them it shouldn't be at least you know we should be scratching where people each and if they don't itch we'll use a little itchy powder and might make a dime you know but over time those sorts of circumstances invariably will catch up to people and they're going to remember who they can turn today and don't say I told you so I mean I think that was really not it was hard so I knew you were going to end up this place but yeah that doesn't work but um yeah if that words an or witness we talked quite a bit about witness and obviously there's that there's a power in that tonight but also what role does apologetics or having knowledge that they've come in I think apologetics obviously is huge and incredibly important then I think one of the things though that it's problematic about it as most people feel like you know I'm not Scott Hahn I can't I don't know how to defend the thing the way that he does and I think so I think this is a difficult thing because people find it very intimidating that there's just this 2,000 years of our faith I mean there's a lot to sift through and a lot to really know and then you also have sort of the cultures favourite things that they love to be Catholics up about whether it's you know the Inquisition or Galileo or you know you name it there's there's something out there that someone's going to try and you know trip you up on and so it seems I'm going to pick this up on the other side skews you stay with us on Franciscan University percent [Music] I think the keys to evangelization are to pray for the person and persevere in that prayer not to give up hope but the person may not be progressing as fast as you want them to and I think the second key to evangelization is loving the person where they're at just the same way God loves us and our sins and our fault to reciprocate the same love for that person as God loves us a lot of times people do come of the young teens do come and they don't want to be there usually they're because they have to be there for a confirmation obligation but if you've been able to cultivate within the group a good Chris Christian welcoming environment the youth begins to see the light and the joy that exists within that community I am a communication arts major the president of film club and an editor for a Franciscan University presents it's really great to be able to work on Franciscan University presents because it is a national television show on EWTN and a lot of other schools you're not going to have that kind of ability to put that on a resume when I graduate I know that I'm going to to be firm in sticking with my faith and you know go into daily Mass and if we're into fashion and things like that because instead of just learning with my mind or just focusing on schoolwork I actually you know can grow with my whole person Franciscan University is academically excellent and passionately Catholic [Music] welcome back to Franciscan University presents this entire program springs forth from the very heart of Franciscan University we're recording right now in our communication arts studio our students are operating the cameras and equipment here our panelists are theology professors here at the university we've been talking about nudging conversions kind of moving people along in the faith with dr. Kerr egress so I had to cut you off the last segment we were talking about the role of apologetics and you kind of started painting a picture of how much the world likes to heap stuff at us to undermine the faith create obstacles pitfalls say let me continue on with that well I think that the one struggle that most people have with with using apologetics is that we're just overwhelmed by the amount of things that we have to respond to and so it feels like okay what if I have a start down this road and then all of a sudden I don't have an answer and I think this is really a stumbling block but I think there's a great they're great resources for it the first one of course is to say I don't really know the answer to that but I can find a book for you I can find a great resource or I can you know send you a link to something about that because I we have the sense that we have to know it all you know do Catholics you don't know your face well there's 2,000 years of history to cover so it's a little difficult to do that for most of us but I think that's one of the best things about the Internet is that there are so many resources out there I think when I was coming back to the faith I didn't have I remember we're passing around VHS you know movies using those resources but I've you know our Dark Ages back and that a long time ago yes we'll love you Joe exactly and so really trying to find the resources was difficult but now it's not so much making people respect you if you say you know I don't know that I this is something I've ever studied but I can find for you a great resource if you've got something you're interested in you know here's a book here's that here's a website here's a video that's been done on it and I think that's a great way to sort of negotiate some of the apologetics without feeling like you have to really be an encyclopedia oh that's an admission of humility winning is not only disarming but sanctifying right it should be recommended of the art of listening is goes right to the heart of evangelization and I'm thinking that it's a pretty hallowed tradition you find this in st. Thomas the whole nature of the dispute Osseo is rooted in his willingness to listen to get inside the mind of his adversary so that he understands his argument better even than he does and that was the point Chesterton made about seven centuries later if you want to be a good controversialist an effective polemicist you need to listen to find out where is this guy coming from right and you could begin by asking what is it that you really want what are you looking and then listen and and usually the things that come up but people will bring up as something that they a beef they have with the church it usually has nothing to do with that it's usually there's something much much deeper it goes back to you know had a bad experience here or this happened or I was angry about this event and that's where the listening can come in because that's when true healing can happen with your really paying attention to those deeper you know nuances of what's under them something that has been suggested superficially you know you mentioned my name in connection to apologetics but I mean I have to be honest and admit a certain reluctance to dive into apologetics and really for 30 years or more since becoming a Catholic and before then I I felt as though there were sort of people out there who were like macho apologists with a false sense of certitude who thought they could argue into submission just like someone could pin you down for the beaten count no and I think it's become apparent to all of us now that a new evangelization calls for a new apologetics ed was the line I know from a friend John cavity Nia notre-dame but others have used it too and the the logic of the faith is really something that you can see but now 60 or 70 years ago Frank she could be there in Hyde Park London and the Catholic evidence guild could be arguing you know debating but we've had a slow but seismic shift of culture so I think that the the inner logic of love has to be the thing that really opens them and simultaneously the heart you know I'm thinking of that one episode in the book where you uh you speak of a graduate student who was here struggling with unbelief agnosticism going through RCIA pulling back going through RCIA again and apparently pulling back until he just simply read the Nicene Creed you know to believe in God the Father Almighty to believe in Jesus Christ who from all eternity is more of a son than any kid I've ever had you know and to recognize that that the logic of the faith is really all about a love you know for four years I think I you know the love of the truth is what compelled me but now it's more like the truth of love that is showing itself to be the only thing that I can explain everything well and I think your point is played out everyday with social media because we see so commonly you know I'm just going to post this article and people aren't changed and transformed by that because it's this sort of faceless you know platform where you get hired to convey love it's hard to have a real relationship there so we have plenty of evidence that just putting an argument out there doesn't work in fact it makes people dig their heels in even deeper oftentimes and raises the polemics to a degree that that it really is warts love and shuts it off so in in many respects it's it is a new way of approaching it that must really be on that is not this reminder I think is really central to Pope Francis and that that apostolic exhortation that we may sow the seed but it lies deep down in the ground and even while the farmer is sleeping it grows we have limes and then it bursts for it so the real agent of evangelization is Christ and we have to insist upon the primacy of grace if you're going to succeed in persuading somebody to sign on you have to count on grace moving him it's not going to be the force of your argument but let's talk about that a little bit more because I think you've kind of removed a lot of people's hurdles by saying really ultimately it is not a one size fit all we have to look at each individual to listen to them by asking questions and finding out deeper we may have value in apologetics but finding out who this person is and how he journey with them but then there's also this extra huge burden that's lifted by saying this they're really the agent of evangelization is the Holy Spirit is Grace active in that person's life and through you as well so let's talk about that well I think one of the things that has a grace is I thought most dramatically when I realized God loves these people more than I do he wants them to become Catholic more than I do and in that was just this incredible freedom that I had I had an experience previously and I think it gives me that freedom when I'm around others when I now even though I was as a mom and looking at my children and trying to evangelize those I love that there's just freedom that it's okay if it doesn't happen now it doesn't have to happen on my terms and I think that is what is we know about grace edits it's always available and we kind of need to just be connected with that again it's all about relationship as far as our relationship with Christ and pulling others into that love I think is a really important element if what you finally give is the thing that you you've got at the deepest level then it needs to be love I mean that was the title of a wonderful von Balthasar book love alone is credible which became sort of the dress rehearsal for the whole glory of the Lord trilogy you give what you've got and love is diffusive of what you've got and it spreads out it radiates it's also patient mmm-hmm it you can't say okay I've given you love you've got five minutes I haven't heard and yes exactly what's wrong with you God is very patient with us right he waited thirty years before he decided to really gets curious about his mission and it really is it so much about timing God's timing and where the soul he knows when and where that soul is going to grow and so the prayers that you we may say now they may not really germinate until much much later but that's not like it's lost somehow so I think that's another piece of it you had mentioned this already a little bit but don't you want to share a little bit more than on the importance of prayer and even sacrifice you know in the role of evangelization absolutely I know I mean there are so many stories of people using whether it's novenas or having masses said for people I know I did a lot of 30 day mass novenas for people which was always comical because I was trying out like day 28 and I'm almost done and you know stacking up you know going to Mass on Saturday night and Sunday morning to make sure I can get to 30 days not having to start over but I think that is you know really sacrificing for others and whether it's fasting or in small ways and it those there's a lot of fruit from that but I don't think that we are aware of and even just regular aches and pains having people you mentioned one devotion which which is very popular these days I think Pope Francis had something to do with with the spread of and attraction of it I mean our lady under of thoughts yes that particular novena it's not only easy but it's endearing and there's so many I mean if you look at the world today if you look at one person's life there's so many knots it's not just you know I think back in the old days where divorce wasn't common and there wasn't abortion and all of these other things that just really torture our souls in new ways there's just that the knots are so significant and so overwhelming that I think we could really despair if we didn't have these great resources to know that these can be undone there can be healing there can be a new life here I think it's just the whole perspective that we're entering into a very spiritual realm and evangelization and to recognize our people bound up with all the things you mentioned and so many others but but it's the grace it's the Holy Spirit it's the intercession of Our Lady that will undo those knocks and I will open their heart because that's what at the point is is that it they may not be ready to receive the greatest apologetic they may be I have all these walls and barriers up to God's love and to truth you know there was one section in your book that really intrigued me this little schematic you put together phases in the spiritual life that first you suffer from yourself your your own sins become a source of torment and that's hellish but then you start to suffer for yourself and it becomes toriel but then the final leap right off the page you suffer for others man's paradise oh that was a beautiful scheme that you had set out where did you steal that yeah you know it was one of the useful gifts of the Holy Spirit I suppose I am yeah I just came to me and my husband when he read through the book said you know this is a very different chapter than the other chapter my favorite section and I mean when you brought it up again it was just like it just I read it and then I reread it because I just think that Christianity in its Catholic form alone really can confront suffering and recognize that it wasn't just redemptive 2,000 years ago it still is and it isn't just well therefore we have an answer to the problem of suffering no we have a divine compassion a capacity to discover our warden amidst the suffering I saw when my mother was dying of stage 4 bone cancer where she was finding God in deeper ways you know and I was like my goodness and so when I read that I just I remember jotting down something out of heard years ago that that Saints are nothing but graduates from the school of suffering ok the rest of us are just dropouts who've got to really enroll and hang in there you know and and everybody else is running from suffering from the illness they want to avoid denied death and that sort of thing but these things have that element of inevitability and so you know that the gospel has a way of just finding people no matter where they are because suffering finds them right and I think as a being a mom has been just an incredible gift of understanding disbalance of joy and suffering a new engine Matic ways I remember bringing my third child home and suddenly I was like 2 weeks after he was born and I'm in no stages where you know you haven't slept in days and I'm exhausted and but I had this great deep joy and I thought I know I'm not on any medication succeed you know I knew it was just that there was really it was the suffering that was giving me this joy that I hadn't experienced before and so I started paying attention to that and that was really just very decisive in my own life and helping me to understand this balance and I think we think of suffering is just terrible but when you experience the joy that can come with suffering all of a sudden you there's a you know I don't mind you so much I can take I can take more of this I'm open to more of this and and many seek it because they see that and feel that joy that's that comes with it well as you think about evangelization are there any kind of practical tips that you would share in Czar's you're making it very clear eyetality yes you can give what you don't have so that's certainly the first one and then the second one is you know put put the debate away and just keep it simple and and just really love people where they are and then build that relationship and that's really where the conversions are going to come from yeah amen amen stay with us for the final segment of Franciscan University presents [Music] so when we talk about FNG Lucien what comes to my mind about prayer love and listen so when I met someone just randomly everywhere anytime the first thing I would think north what do you want me to do and then I'll just love the person and try to listen what are they trying to communicate not only through their words but also through their action what they're trying to express there and then if I need to say something then my prayer is going to be Lord gives me the right words and right time explore the treasures of your Catholic heritage on a Franciscan University pilgrimage led by inspiring spiritual directors you'll walk in the footsteps of saints and martyrs in the Holy Land Poland France and Italy and you'll deepen your love for Jesus Christ through daily man's confession prayer and the joy of Christian Fellowship but Franciscan University lead you on a pilgrimage of faith find out more at Franciscan edu slash pilgrimages [Music] welcome back to Franciscan University presents this is our final segment here we've been talking about nudging conversions within your family bringing those you love back into the Catholic Church Regis could you start us off well thanks so much for this book and for your presence it's a marvelous book and I hope a thousand flowers will bloom from it up we've been talking about culture but the subject of beauty I think needs to come up to surround it because when culture flowers it's oftentimes around those forms of beauty which adorned and festoon it in such a striking and brilliant way I mean beauty it is said looks after herself but she needs some help she's sort of the Forgotten transcendental and good and true need to prop her up from time to time and Ratzinger Pope Benedict you quote in your book I think in a very telling a passage who speaks of the Gothic the encounter with the Gothic which somebody once described as a Lance aimed at the heart of God and he speaks of the ravishing Beauty awakened by the experience of the Gothic these vertical lines that shoot out and shoot up and they draw us heavenward Europe is is covered with the Gothic we don't have too many examples here maybe a pseudo gothic neo-gothic but there is something to be said for those those towering spires that reach literally into the heart of God and draw people in that direction I mean why should search architecture be flat as a map like a bowling alley it ought to be beautiful and filled with these spaces that invite us to to gaze at something greater than simply grit and Pope Benedict oftentimes speaks of the witness of sanctity as really mattering but also the witness of beauty and when the two conspire the beauty of holiness we make the faith that much more attractive and your book that makes it attractive and I'm so delighted that you've come here to talk about it thank you thanks migi Scott yeah welcome back Harry it's good to have you and it's good to read the book I really want to recommend it but thank you too for for writing it I took away from my reading of the book the the need that I always rediscover to focus on the face of Jesus not Christology not arguments in favor of his deity and that sort of thing because it almost always not always but usually causes me to fall back in love and the phone more deeply in love and I think whatever God does it's because people love him and can radiate that to other people that's what the New Evangelization is all about and that's what is distinctively Catholic about it you capture that you know John Paul who called for it you know Saint John Paul described the New Evangelization as riah van July zhing the de-christianized so it really is a reawakening and it can happen at any point along the way at any stage of life but it also illustrates the point that you make in 101 ways that conversion is ongoing and it's ever deepening its lifelong it's never easy but it's one of those things that just gets encouraged through friendship through family and often awakened through suffering as well so I would just you know emphasize one thing and that is trust the Holy Spirit to draw you closer to Jesus and then work on drawing others not your argumentation primarily although there's a place at a time for that but to really be patient we're gradually accompanied people and then be willing to be bold and to say something that might startle the other person but again it's planning a seed that might not cause an instantaneous response but it will germinate you know and the Holy Spirit will water that and so I just want to again get back and say you know you show in so many ways how to do it and I would encourage people to get this book because it isn't a theologian it really is something of a mom of a regular person just showing how supernatural grace works well thank you well and thank you for bringing the whole get out because I think this is something we haven't really talked a lot about but I think the role of the Holy Spirit and I mentioned in my book my example of dealing with my sister and she she was living a very very very worldly life and I knew like you know it's her younger sister I was not the person that was going to bring her back to the church and so I really started praying and I felt the Holy Spirit saying you need to pray that somebody else will come into her life and lead her back to the church and sure enough you know this great story that my sister tells about she was on a business trip she went from she went to like three different restaurants but for whatever reason she didn't stay at them and she said she found herself sitting at a bar next to a woman who was smoking now if you knew my sister she wouldn't go to a bar first of all but then sitting next to someone who was smoking was really the last thing that you would expect of her and sure enough this woman and her husband really just loves my sister and they took her to Rome she met the Pope I mean it was really the first spark that I think for the deepening of my sister's faith but again it was I think I feeling that prayer pray that somebody else will come into her life and just to see the fruit of that was really remarkable but holding streudel right but I think the other thing that I would be remiss in not mentioning about evangelization is of course the role to Our Lady plates and we know that as far as numbers the largest evangelization that ever took place was with Our Lady of Guadalupe in terms of just the breadth of it and then the quickness of it and so I really think that's another key piece to just keeping in mind asking Our Lady to help Mother these Souls and give them what they need because she knows what they need so true so true well thank you if you've enjoyed today's program you can find out more by downloads that we have for you available at faith and reason com nudging conversions particularly this is entitled for within your family I think we all have family members who have wandered who are possibly living right now outside of the faith you can get this at faith in reason calm or just for asking us the book also nudging conversions a practical guide to bring those you love back into the church we're at a time unlike any others a greater outpouring of grace because we need it a great they would say that for a new evangelization have to happen we need a new Pentecost and as Carrie just said we need to rely on the Holy Spirit because if we think this job is up to us we will fail and the world will be lost but if we recognize how much that God wants this more than we do and a pretty recognizing that fact that whether it be your children your grandchildren whether it be your brothers or sisters or parents even our spouses this is an opportunity for great grace in this moment to call upon the Holy Spirit and a spouse of the Holy Spirit we've got to think big recognizing that God can do great things but act very very small and say this is our effort this is our brick in the wall and saying we were building a culture of love one child at a time or as Kimberly would say one diaper at a time with our own children whatever those little efforts those little acts of love but but consumed with God's great grace offering our sufferings I really can do a world of difference and our world needs to be transformed by our actions and our love so let's offer people those little nudges and nudges that we can offer in their conversions I want to invite you to be a part of Franciscan University's mission our mission is to educate to evangelize to form those we're going to go out and transform the world and we want you to be a part of that coming here to our campus to study to earn your degree to be nourished in the truths of the faith or through our online programs which are dynamic presentations that will equip you so many ways for our life fully immersed in what God is calling you to do or join us at one of our dynamic summer conferences or join with us on pilgrimages we travel the world to sacred shrines around the world or go to faith and reason calm where there's videos and talks to educate to equip and inspire you for the New Evangelization and until next time Blackey of functioning [Music] download the free handout on today's topics go to faith and reason com email your request for the handout - presents as Franciscan Jeanne you at faith and reason comm you can also purchase past episodes of Franciscan University presents or request today's free hand out and purchase past programs by calling 8 eight eight three three three zero three eight one that's eight eight eight three three three zero three eight one or call seven four zero two eight three six three five seven [Music] [Applause] [Music]

Channel: Franciscan University of Steubenville

Views: 4,773

Rating: 4.8153844 out of 5

Keywords: Franciscan University, Steubenville, Ohio, Catholic, college, Franciscan University of Steubenville, Franciscan University of Steubenville (College / University), FaithAndReason.com, Faith And Reason, EWTN, Eternal Word Television Network, Franciscan University Presents, Presents, Michael Hernon, Dr. Regis Martin, Dr. Scott Hahn, Dr. Carrie Gress, Carrie Gress, Nuding Conversions: A Practical Guide to Bringing Those You Love Back to the Church, Nuding Conversions, conversion, reversion

Id: FFg31nm07jU

Length: 58min 30sec (3510 seconds)

Published: Sat Sep 02 2017