Franciscan University Presents: A Catholic Guide to Depression

depressions in john paul ii once said is always a spiritual trial join us today as we talk about understanding and overcoming the trial of depression with our special guest psychiatrist dr. aaron kerry Otte author of the catholic guide to depression how the Saints the sacraments and psychiatry can help you break its grip and find happiness again Michael Hernon vice president of advancement at Franciscan University in Steubenville Ohio and you're watching Franciscan University presents stay with us [Music] welcome to Franciscan University presents today we'll be talking about the topic of depression I'm your host Michael Hernon vice-president of advancement at Franciscan University in Steubenville Ohio joined here in our studios with our regular panelist dr. regis martin professor of systematic theology here at Franciscan University dr. Scott Hahn who holds the chair in the father Michael Scanlon chair in biblical theology of the New Evangelization and dr. Erin curiata who is the associate professor of psychiatry and the director of the program in medical ethics at the University of California Irvine you are the chairman of the clinical ethics committee at the University of California at Irvine Medical Center and you're a graduate from Notre Dame and got your medical degree at Georgetown you're you and your wife have five children and live out in California and today we're talking about the book that you wrote the caff against the sacraments and psychiatry can help you break its grip and find happiness again so welcome to the program it's great have you like great to be here yeah well if we could start off where our topic is depression so maybe we did start there what is depression well depression is a disorder of mind and body that can profoundly impair a person's ability to function both mentally and physically and a lot of folks who haven't experienced an episode of clinical depression assume gee you know I know what that must be like and I've hit right rough patches in life I've had bad days or times where I've been down in the dumps but when psychiatrists talk about clinical depression we're talking about something that is pretty qualitatively different from what most people have experienced in their in the usual ups and downs it's not like just having the blues or just having a bad day that's right it's it's also not just about our emotional state or our moods depression tends to disrupt for example a person's normal sleep-wake cycles so they have severe sleep difficulties it can change their appetite in ways that they can have profound weight loss which can compromise them medically it can lower their level of physical energy to the point where just getting out of bed in the morning is a major chore it affects our thinking as well our cognition can narrow our ability to think flexibly to see the future with any sense of of hope it impairs a person's ability to enjoy activities that usually they would find pleasurable so psychiatrists call this anhedonia that's sort of the technical name for it and depression often leads a person who otherwise would never consider it to start thinking perhaps life is not worth living anymore perhaps suicide might be an option for me so we can see that depression is is a state of really profound mental and physical suffering for an individual whose yeah I think that's the theme that needs to be underscored of I was hoping that it would come up even sooner this one item in the inventory and that's pain mmm people who are depressed are in the grip of a profound and even unspeakable pain excruciating sorrow I mean you you give the example of that woman in her 70s who recovered from cancer and she said the ordeal of cancer I would be willing to face again rather than a day of clinical depression that's right interestingly enough I was doing a radio show just a couple of weeks ago and the host told me during the show that he had at one point in his life lost his leg and after that underwent a an episode of depression and he said well the episode of depression caused him more pain and suffering then the physical ordeal of the loss of one of his limbs so I think these two stories really illustrate you know the the the psychic psychological pain and the intensity of that point that a person with depression and the fact that people who aren't depressed can't really appreciate that extent the abyss of the pain that those who are afflicted must endure you know that's why it's important for you to emphasize the fact that we're talking about clinical depression and not just sadness not even deep sadness because it's different in kind not just degree it isn't just worse than what most people have it's something different and it's been in my family and in my life experience I've known people who've gone through it you know and at one I suppose you'd think well you're a good Catholic you know you have prayer you have recourse to the sacraments you shouldn't be you know depressed and that sort of attitude and it's common but I think what we have to recognize is that you know sadness is not the same as clinical depression but clinical depression is a near epidemic I mean it has really spread far and wide and deep for Americans and throughout the world but I think also for Catholic Christians who are doubly shocked right you know that they succumb to it or that they're prone to it and I think that's why your work has particular importance right now yeah well thank you Scott you know it's not just a religious people who sometimes labor under this misapprehension as if to say look okay you're depressed for God's sake start praying and you'll get over it but secular people I think are under a similar of misconception they think well maybe you're not working hard enough that's right industry is the enemy of melancholy so for heaven's sake get a job staging therapy right right yeah yeah and it doesn't work that's right depression is a very complex illness and what we often see in people trying to approach how do I deal with this is that they will look at it from only one perspective and they'll miss other aspects of the disorder so they will prematurely or excessively spiritualize it right if only I prayed more or the Bible more we receive the sacraments more frequently I would somehow be inoculated from this particular disorder or illness or form of suffering prayer and the sacraments in the spiritual life have an important role to play in helping a person recover from depression and perhaps reducing their risk of depression but a faithful and dedicated spiritual life does not make a person immune from depression neither does hard work or physical activity all of these things have a role to play they're a piece of the puzzle but depression has causes on the biological level including genetic predispositions some people are just hardwired to respond to stress or certain life circumstances with a depressive reaction whereas another person might have a different sort of response to the same circumstances so we have to be able to attend to the medical and biological aspects of the illness as well it's too simplistic it's too reductionistic to say it's nothing but a chemical imbalance in the brain right certainly there are changes in brain chemistry and we know that medications and other things can help to right that imbalance I mean it soaked in cycling it's horrible enough when somebody has depression but when you visit upon them a kind of guilt as if they're responsible for this or even that's unbearable even that sometimes themselves you know me yes what am I doing wrong it will tend to suffer in silence and the you know there's perhaps no mention of them and the prayers of the faithful at mass because of the stigma of mental illness you know someone gets cancer they're flooded with sympathy they're flooded with external shows of support relays someone is suffering from cancer they may be suffering every bit as much perhaps even more suffering from depression they may be suffering even more than the individual with another conventional medical illness and yet people don't know what to say to them right or they say the wrong thing well they perfectly normal right yeah that's right from the other side it's hard to tell why this person can't get up in the morning you said something that I think we own no deep down and and resonate to and that is you know the pain of the body is real but the pain of the soul isn't less right it's much greater you know I remember thinking back to I think back to what st. Thomas More wrote about the sadness of Christ and the sorrow and you know the the agony of Jesus on the cross I mean that the physical pain is indescribable and yet the sorrows in his heart are much much deeper you know and and that is a sinless Redeemer I think what we have to recognize is that you know the pain that people go through is something that is really not only unspeakable but at times humanly unbearable and the best we can do I think is besides praying for them is to step away from putting them on a guilt trip I mean really have nothing to do with that and then be open to whatever possibilities there are besides prayer and the sacraments which are powerful you know a profession we'll help and it isn't some kind of admission of failure it really is I think a divine remedy at times and we ought to be open to that sort of thing even if it's humbling that's right it is an act of humility to say I'm dealing with something here that I can't fix that's right on my own and I'm willing to entrust myself to two competent and honest professionals who may be able to give me some assistance and and for the person who's trying to help a loved one with depression to be willing to accompany them to go there with them not to reach in and fix which we probably can't do but to have compassion in the literal sense of that term to be willing to to suffer with patiently and and be present to the person trying to understand them even though at times it may be it really does require an imaginative leap of what we might call the moral imagination to put yourself in somebody else's psyche to walk that extra mile I remember years ago when I read William Styron's darkness visible I mean the very title suggests that this depression is palpable it it's a presence and it's everywhere and it darkens and devastates one's life the whole landscape is leveled and you can't describe it you can't somehow conceptualize or capture it in language and others who have never been there they can't relate and of course the title comes from Milton's description of Hell emergence from a from a hellish state and Styron complains at the beginning of that book about the word depression yeah that it doesn't do justice the nature of this affliction you know depression is a sort of dip in the road or something like this right he prefers and I prefer the older term melancholia which suggests a sort of black and oppressive mental state right well when we talked about this earlier a little bit but do you think it's it's more of a modern phenomenon because it appears is if there's more people suffering from depression today or do we just simply recognize you know I would say yes and no on the one hand we have we have clinical depression and descriptions of depression going all the way back to to Hippocrates in the fourth century BC and even further in an Egyptian medical literature that pretty accurately described the the clinical features of depression is we would recognize them today at the same time there's pretty good epidemiological evidence that rates of depression are on the rise that there are social and cultural factors social isolation fragmentation of society fragmentation of the family that contribute in already vulnerable individuals to to amplify their risk for depression my colleague at Duke Dan blazer has written a book on the social origins of depression that it talks about this so it it's it's not an it's not a new phenomenon but it does seem to be getting worse in our time well there is something about the modern age I I think that that aggravates that that condition I mean the Pope Pope John Paul the second when he addressed those psychiatrists in Rome he spoke about consumerism and and material prosperity and the distractions of that of that life somehow accelerating these tendencies that are for the most part latent in the human psyche but they they get exacerbated inflamed by those very conditions that people so uncritically embrace if I only have more than I'm gonna be more no no you're not yeah yeah and so we have depression coming from within and from without is that is that yeah I think that's a good way to put it we have to recognize both the endogenous factors and the external factors you mean I mean that the stuff that we just simply come into the world with okay you know I I have a strong family history of depression let's say and therefore I'm in a sense primed you know to react to circumstances in a particular way and initially my first or second episode of depression might be tied up with the things going on in my life you know but the loss of a loved one or losing my job at work or being under excessive stress overtime depression tends to be getting more depression an episode of depression seems to change the brain in ways that it makes us more prone to relapse and to have future episodes so that with time and with repeated episodes of depression the the illness itself can seem to become more disconnected from external events of my life is kind of taking on a light so which is why just getting another job after unemployment isn't necessarily the cure exactly because even if there is a trigger cause that sends somebody into a bout of deep depression it remains multi causal you know and so the responses you indicate have to be at several different levels both naturally as well as supernaturally that's right I like to say that we need to take a both/and approach to the treatment of depression because the cause has come because the cause has come from all these different directly a great pity that there's not just one cause I mean if it were simply genetic then you pop a pill right now when you get a headache you take aspirin there must be some biochemical of medicine that you can imbibe and bingo it's gone but it doesn't work like that that's right medicines have their place psychotherapy has its place but there are many other interventions and I I would argue you could say spiritual interventions or spiritual forms of health that are necessary for many people in the recovery process well I want to pick up on this point in the next epic section here stay with us on Franciscan University presents as we talk about depression and now we'll go into the next segment about its connection to the spiritual life stay with us on Franciscan University presents [Music] a depression like every other illness or condition we have has a mind body and spirit connection the the mind in the body is obvious but sometimes people don't notice the spiritual connection by that I mean we try to avoid harm we try to avoid hurtful things that are happening in our lives and we're depressed and so we turn to other behaviors very often those are addictive behaviors alcohol comes to mind drug addiction gambling sexual addiction so when a person is hurting from depression they will turn to those things rather than deal with the depression so a true healing or a true recovery from the depression must take into account also those patterns of sin that they may have started to engage in and that should be dealt with as well people recognize Franciscan University as being academically excellent and passionately Catholic we have the unique opportunity through our faculty members through our students to proclaim that academic excellence by reaching out in many different ways we also remain passionately Catholic in the way in which we are able to worship the way in which we are able to bring that love of Christ to others on a daily basis it's important for us to be able to embrace both [Music] welcome back to Franciscan University presents we've been talking with author professor and psychiatrist dr. Erin Kerry Adi Erin III we've been talking about depression as a whole and I want to go in as a Catholic into the role that depression might play in in sin and how sin and depression may have any connection or is there none well we know that all forms of suffering disorder illness ultimately are traced back to original sin in the fall are broken and wounded human nature is now prone to illness disease disability and ultimately death but I think it's not necessarily accurate to say that any one individuals particular episode of depression or their experience of depression can be traced back to that particular individuals personal sins let's say I think that's a mistake that a lot of folks make you know the Gospel of John recounts an episode where the disciples come up to Jesus and ask him was it this man's sins or his parents sins that caused him to be born blind and our Lord says you know you were asking the wrong question he reframes the whole thing for them so I think we don't want to fall into that simplistic trap of blaming the victim for what it is that they're suffering from now certainly the fact that we live in a sinful world our own sins and those of others can make us more prone to suffer from depression someone who has suffered as the victim of early childhood abuse or neglect for example we know that that individual later in life is going to be more prone and more at risk for developing depression so there is a relationship but it's not a clean sort of lying to one and direct relationship yeah but but but sin allowed pain and suffering to enter the world and therefore depression is part of that in a right I mean if the depressed person is undergoing a kind of descent into hell then the ultimate origin of that is the fall that's right if we hadn't fallen from grace nobody would be a falling into hell it seems to me that that implicit stigmatizing of the victim is what accounts for the sort of shyness and hesitancy a lot of us feel in talking about the mentally ill we don't want to embarrass them remind them of their sins and of course the victims feel a kind of shame and they don't want to talk about it so there's a double silence which we need to break through and it is extraordinary that Jesus does it in the New Testament but somehow the story didn't take yeah that's right we don't want to compound their suffering I mean a depressed person is already because of the depression experiencing excessive rumination and a sort of scrupulous 'ti on overdrive you know beating themselves up over perceived wrongs or perceived faults far in excess of any anything objective that they've done so that morbid introspection can lead to an even deeper self paralysis as it were I think you're wise though in emphasizing the role of the spiritual because you know the human soul is a spiritual substance and so much of modern psychology that's supposed to study the psyche denies the psyche and as much as the psyche is the soul and there's this reductionistic and materialist approach to the person as nothing more than body processes and yet there's also a tendency among Catholics to kind of go to the opposite end and the spiritual eyes this sort of thing you know yet the soul is the form of the body and the soul is really so inseparably United to us as persons you know and and so I think it's important to recognize that you know at a basic level even before you get into a severe depressive disorder praying for one another you know laying hands on each other as we do at Franciscan and other parish communities the sacraments frequenting the sacraments especially confession with spiritual direction accompanying that I think if there's a if there's a serious depression but also being open to prayers of deliverance you know III don't think this should be done recklessly or carelessly but you know that the church through the diocese through the bishop and priests you know there are processes in place where counseling and medical treatment can be accompanied by the prayer and the sacraments and serious and professionally informed priestly guidance in these kinds of prayers of deliverance and I I think when we recognize how multi causal it is we should celebrate the fact that the church embraces you know a kind of multi-faceted approach to treatment that's right Scott I I agree completely yeah and a reductionist approach that says well let's just look at the brain ignores the fact that medical research now shows psychotherapy changes the brain so certain forms of interpersonal relationships have a sort of causal effect on our biology we know that prayer changes the brain there was a recent study just published showing changes in the cerebral cortex among individuals who were religious or spiritual however it was defined in the study and who belonged to a religious community and those changes mediated the fact that these individuals were at lower risk for depression so again prayer the sacraments don't make us immune from these sort of sorts of problems of life but they can be a very important piece of healing and recovery and I'm glad that you mentioned the prayers of the church and the prayers of deliverance because the devil always goes after our weaknesses that's where he gets his foothold whether it's a whether it's a character defect or some you know physical disability or some you know mental vulnerability that's where he's going to get in there and tempt us the person with depression is going to be more likely to be tempted to despair and a sense of hopelessness in the old testament we have yet the example of saul you know who was the king and had been anointed and he had prophesied and yet you know because of his relationship with david because of his own insecurities and jealousy and because of evil spirits he goes into a kind of darkness with with with a murderous rage towards his son-in-law you know and that sort of thing you know and the music of david you know and the friendship of others consumed but sometimes not ultimately delivery you know and i also think of the man by the poolside of Bethsaida for 38 years you know Jesus comes alongside and says do you want to be healed what a dumb question you know but at the same time when you listen to his answer I've been here for 38 years and every time you know he could have said yes please go ahead but you can also sense that's you know that he's wallowing not just not not in the pool but in his own self-pity and I think this is where friendship is so important to where people who come alongside and and be patient and maybe even enter into that dark cave and spend time with you even if they don't have a magical wand away yeah I don't think I don't think we can emphasize this enough that note of solidarity that you suffer alongside the depressed person III think of that wonderful line from TS Eliot's Four Quartets about the wounded surgeon who plies the steel that questions the distempered part beneath the bleeding hands we feel the Chartres compassion of the healers part I mean that's an exquisite combination of competency and compassion he's a technician he knows he's a surgeon he can make the right incision but at the same time he suffers alongside eetu is wounded broken he can identify with this person's pain it's right with the man at at the pool needed he said I have no I have no one else to help me you know into the pool that's precisely what he needed was a friend who was willing to be there with him it is instructed that he doesn't despair unlike Saul I mean doesn't he end a suicide I mean this guy is healed I mean it's a long wait but I mean that's sort of a metaphor for the Christian life it's a waiting awaiting in hope and hope is the language of Prayer and it's powerful thinking that as a Catholic psychiatrist you come fully equipped to to help a person because you know Jung and Freud and Skinner that they break man down they they reduce him so far that they ignore all these other parts that the social part the spiritual part the physical part as well as the kind of psychological elements that play into a human person so when we're talking about the spiritual life what what impact or what influence have Dazz depression specifically have when we look at the spiritual life or the moral life because you know that that does influence us that has an impact in our life it does a person who's in the thick of a episode of depression will often find it very difficult to pray mmm they will feel perhaps that God is abandoned me or he is far away from me so the sense of his his presence the experience effectively or emotionally of any sort of spiritual consolation can be completely absent from their life a sense of personal self-loathing and self-hatred can often come to characterize their pattern of thinking which makes it very difficult for them to accept what it is that they're hearing in this in the scriptures mm-hmm about God's love for them well how can he love me when I'm such a horrible loathsome worthless kind of person and it's precisely there I think that we need to to intervene to restore the person's sense of their own dignity yes right now you're suffering tremendously but there is hope for you there is always hope for you and that anything we can do mmm spiritually to instill in the person a sense of that that key theological virtue of hope is going to help them to get through that period and to recover it's not necessarily going to take away their pain right immediately sometimes I tell patients I know what you're going through right now is horrifying and I know that there's probably nothing I can say to you today that's going to lift all of that anguish and make you feel immediately better but I can tell you that there is hope that what you have is treatable that I've dealt with many other patients that have gone through what you've gone through and they have recovered fully and if you're patient and if you stick with the treatment program with time I think you will find relief from the suffering and just instilling that sense of hope can be the most powerful thing I do there it's so important I mean even slowing down the downward slide right before it stops and gets reversed you know to think that there is hope you know because you're not only prone to feeling unlovable by God but you also tend to think that you're not loved by God why would he allow this you know so on the one hand I don't deserve mercy and grace on the other hand if you did love me why would I be here you know and it's it's mutually reinforcing and I think hope is precisely that what would you call the key that unlocks it but I think it's also the most it is the underrated of the three theological virtues and often times and quite unwittingly the victim has entered into the sufferings of Christ his cry from the cross my God my God why have you forsaken me that experience of abandonment is is replicated by the depressed person he feels that dereliction well you're part of Jesus at this moment whose own cries are much wider and deeper than you know he somehow includes you in his own definitive sense of loss being wrapped in this I mean that just makes me think you know are are there Saints who have been depressed yeah is that as that you know can you look back and see and if so who well many scholars believe that st. Teresa FLA's ooh during her teenage years went through periods of what today would probably be characterized as a clinical depression there's a non canonized but very well known Catholics as well I think of Gerard Manley Hopkins well-known poet who wrote some of the most beautiful verse in the English language who undoubtedly went through periods of deep melancholic depression which which he wrote about which comes through in his writings in his journals and in his poetry I think also of course it wasn't a Catholic but a great man of very noble character Abraham Lincoln mm-hmm who I think it's pretty clear and well-established now by biographers and scholars of his life that Lincoln suffered profound periods of dark melancholic depression when Winston Churchill would oftentimes speak of the black dog that would descend upon him well it didn't keep him from beating Hitler in war but nevertheless he experienced this this melancholia and it's crippling and and Hopkins certainly was able to take that experience and transmuted into unforgettable imperishable art the terrible sonnets I mean they record these dark nights these descents into a kind of hellish blackness and and the sense that you know I'm sending these letters to God and they come back unopened that's a terrible cry of anguish yeah it's powerful I want us to pick up on this and look forward in the next segment to how can we overcome or how can we help others looking at depression stay with us on Franciscan University presents [Music] one of the scripture verses that I often mentioned to my clients remind them of is psalm 34:19 which says the lord is close to the brokenhearted saves those whose spirits are crushed it's really good for for folks who are depressed to hear that because again they often feel far away from God but in fact this is actually telling us that in fact they're very close to God and or perhaps more correctly God is very close to them and that God is watching over them and so it just gives them great comfort that they're not really losing their faith typically in fact they're probably growing in their faith and the Lord's with them every step of the way through these very difficult times explore the treasures of your Catholic heritage on a Franciscan University pilgrimage led by inspiring spiritual directors you'll walk in the footsteps of saints and martyrs in the Holy Land Poland France and Italy and you'll deepen your love for Jesus Christ through daily mass confession prayer and the joy of Christian Fellowship led Franciscan University lead you on a pilgrimage of faith find out more at Franciscan ddu slash pilgrimages [Music] welcome back to Franciscan University presents this entire program springs forth from the very heart of Franciscan University here in Steubenville Ohio the cameras and the equipment are being run by our our students here at the University it's being filmed right here in our communication arts studio here at Franciscan University our regular panelists and myself are all here at Franciscan University we've been talking today with Erin Kerry Adi about the the Catholic guide to depression and the topic has been fascinating I know it affects a lot of people in many different ways you know speaking of students so you look like a student various to know whatever possessed you to enter into psychiatry because I know psychiatrists and they all look like Sigmund Freud in their 70s and you look like maybe you're 18 well I'm a little more than 18 Regis but but I will say sakai psychiatry sort of snuck up on me as an undergraduate I studied philosophy at Notre Dame and I was thinking of going to graduate school and philosophy because I love the academic life and and that particular discipline but my my fiancee at that time my current wife encouraged me to consider medicine because it was another thing I had been talking about doing as a way to both pursue my clinical interests and my interest in in philosophy by way of medical ethics and so forth so I ended up going to medical school and when I went to medical school I think psychiatry was the last specialty on my mind during my third year there I did early on I did my required clerkship in psychiatry I was on an inpatient locked psychiatric unit and just found the patients and their stories and their experiences completely fascinated I was just taken with it and and fell in love with with the work I was fortunate there to train with some really skilled and really excellent physicians and it became clear at that point that psychiatry was was the right specialty for me and I think it's been good for me I think as an academic philosopher I would have perhaps not been quite as grounded in the tangible reality of of people's life so it's a nice balance for me to pursue both the medical ethics work and the philosophy as well as the clinical medical school where did you go nuts that was after medical school I went to the University of California Irvine to do my residency training so that's four years of training in psychiatry after after med school yeah and stayed on there is a clinical faculty member when I finish and I've been on faculty now I think this is my seventh Wow how do you square all of that with the fact that you're still only two what yeah well I boys mind you well you know I I usually write my books late at night I don't watch a lot of TV and I have a wonderful wife that without without whom I would not have gotten my my shoes on my feet yeah well jumping back to our topic today we've talked about the the serious nature the gravity of depression the reality of some of its it's real serious symptoms causes and we've talked about its role in the spiritual life and its influence in us as a whole person I know my my wife has a sister who has suffered from depression and you know first if you could just share because it's it's something that many people live with others who are suffering friends or family members who are suffering from depression would you have any advice or what could they do because some some people may be able to overcome depression others might have to be living with it for a long time what would you say to someone who lives with or was in close proximity to someone well I would pray for patience and pray to the Holy Spirit for the gift of understanding and counsel don't assume that you know what the person is going through try to listen you know try to be present and listen and think about the fact that even though their impairments or their disability may be hidden in ways that you know if they had a broken leg it's obvious why they can't go to work or why it's difficult to do some basic tasks but but understand that they're undergoing a really serious affliction and that they may need to be encouraged just to take small steps you know like a small child that getting out of bed in the morning and brushing their teeth may be an act of heroic fortitude yeah and sometimes we have to accept that a full recovery from a mental illness like depression may not be possible at the same time we want to encourage the person without being overbearing without being too pushy encourage them to seek help wherever it might be found and that may include medical help it may include help from a psychotherapist ideally it would include spiritual direction and as a psychiatrist I always like to work closely whenever my patient is a Catholic or a person who is also obtaining spiritual direction from a priest or a competent layperson I like to get their permission to speak with their spiritual director to make sure that we're understanding what it is that they're dealing with and in coordinating our care so that I'm looking at things on the medical or the psychological level the spiritual director is attending to to their spiritual life and I think that coordination of care and help with the other people in the person's life their family members their spiritual director their friends that are trying to help them that can be very very useful have you found we kind of touched on this earlier have you found that the some of the patients maybe that you've worked with that it's hard for them to even admit it to bring it out or is that where's that easy have they come to that reality it's difficult for them to admit it but when they encounter a person who is understanding who doesn't make assumptions or make judgments about what it is that they're going through there's also a great sense of relief in a sense that now I can unburden myself yeah and I'm not going to be unfairly stigmatized or misunderstood or patted on the back in a sort of condescending way as allied you know just buck up you'll you'll get through it so if we can approach that person with a real sense of love and compassion and a willingness to listen I think that alone without having to reach in there and solve the problem for them that alone can give them great solace at comfort you know I think that's an important point to emphasize because you know the gifts of understanding and counsel you know can instill hope but I think we tend to approach hope as simply hoping for Cure you know when in fact hope is what also empowers people to endure your not only physical illnesses that are incurable at least not going to be cured anytime soon but also these interior illnesses of the soul and I think when we recognize that these can actually bring us closer to Christ or bring our loved ones closer to Christ even if you're not feeling that proximity you know nevertheless you can harness this in holy ways you know you refer to Jesus you know and we've been coming back to this again and Hebrews 5 verses 5 through 7 now here he is praying with loud cries and tears and this isn't theatrical I mean this is from the depth of the soul an anguish that none of us have ever experienced it's not a clinical depression but in some ways his sorrow was part deeper precisely because he could love in a pure and divine way in his sacred humanity but you can see you know that he was heard by him who was able to save him from death but he didn't save him from suffering and death he saved him from despair which is a deeper death and I think that's what friendship does and that's what counsel and encouragement can also offer people and I think sometimes that's what we really need to offer you know prayer and fasting for loved ones but also just coming alongside as you've emphasized you know what I'm one last point I want to make that you know in the book of Hebrews who throughout the New Testament the most frequently quoted Old Testament book is the Psalms and you know it's the only book of the whole Bible that the church is praying 24/7 answer there are 150 Psalms but experts tell us that about 42% of them are Psalms of complaint or Psalms of lament yeah and when you read the psalmist's their prayers are often coming from that same sort of anguish that isn't a quick you know the prayer is not a quick fix I mean why have you forsaken me it's abandonment it's desolation it's not despair there's still hope but you know the fact that you can unite that prayer to the prayer of Christ you know can tap grace and I think also bring grace to many of your loved ones even while you're going through this what makes the Psalms so endearing is the fact that they weren't written by Stoics my absolutely heartfelt Hebrews I mean Jesus was not a stoic I mean he wept over Jerusalem he certainly wept copiously when his friend Lazarus died and and before bringing him back he commiserate with those who loved him the most his sisters and and that I think is a model of solidarity of compassion of just in a companionable way journeying along with the one who suffers and just being present to them without making judgments without patronising in a sort of pompous way saying oh I know what you're suffering let me explain it to you just being present and and and being friends or being family members are there warning signs because I mean there is a there is a you know potentiality with some people who are suffering from depression to consider that suicide or that their life isn't worth living in that sense are there warning signs that people should even be attuned to or looking out for sure well for some individuals even even faithful Catholics who would otherwise never consider suicide for moral and spiritual reasons when they're in the thick of the suffering of depression this may look like the only escape hatch the only way out of something that currently feels intolerable there's a myth out there for example that young people teenagers they tend to joke about suicide right well no that's not the case if someone makes an off-the-cuff remark about maybe you know maybe I should just end everything or maybe I just can't go on anymore we should inquire about that we should take that seriously and should not dismiss that as just sarcasm or you know exaggeration when when someone is at acute risk of suicide sometimes we have to take measures to make sure that they are safe right so in extreme circumstances if we believe that the person may be in danger of acting out on suicidal thoughts or suicidal impulses even having them involuntarily hospitalized for a brief period of time to get them through that period in an environment that is safe is is going to be necessary and potentially lifesaving if someone is struggling with suicidal thoughts and we know that they're seeing a physician or a psychiatrist or psychotherapist just calling that person and letting them know what we're observing you know what's going on you know the person is is isolating they seem to be you know giving away things that they own they see they're doing things that are unusual for them and I'm a little concerned giving that information to the person who's responsible for their clinical care can be helpful yeah don't panic but don't trivialize this sort of that's right right right you know without going in any details I we have six kids and my mother's side I mean my wife side you know there is no depression and my side of the family it goes back generations over a half a century ago I had a family member who went through ten years of darkness before taking his own life and and so I was aware of this and my father was too and he fought it and showed us even as a non-religious person what a heroic and difficult struggle it is but I never imagined that it would be possible for four teenage kids young teens to have an adult-sized depression and without naming names you know out of our six kids a couple of times we've had to deal with that and boy you know on the one hand my wife who doesn't have any experience in her family is just like buck up get over it you know on the other hand I'm like wait a second listen carefully you know and it involved for me not only an educational experience but you know reading and study and talking to experts but mostly spending a lot of time in a cave that I didn't even know existed hmm hours days weeks months thanks be to God I mean both of them are now and in a way that you could almost describe it divined and delivered they look back and they recognize what uh what a painfully difficult and a humanly impossible thing it was but the prayer the fasting the sacraments the friendship the professional help man I tell you you cannot underestimate the importance of this sort of thing you know and especially when you think there's no solution because while there might not be sometimes and frequently enough there is and so that hope that you share through the endurance as parents as spouses because this is not just with kids but spouses too you know I can't emphasize enough the importance of your contribution in the book as well as the wisdom you're sharing today thank you yeah so we've got some things that need to happen friendship prayer but really professional help and in that profession help is there a couple of quick things that you would mention as people go into that in the treatments well some Catholics avoids seeking help because they insist on having a Catholic psychiatrist who shares their faith ideally you could find someone like that but first of all being the Catholic alone does not make one a competent psychiatrist so better to see a competent Jewish psychiatrist than an incompetent Catholic psychiatrist find someone who's respectful of your religious beliefs and convictions and who is good at what they do and be willing to take that step to get help excellent excellent stay with us on Franciscan University presents [Music] the main thing that I want to say to family and friends is really just a message of support and I really want to affirm the good work that family and friends do in providing a listening ear and being patient and sometimes helping with the day-to-day tasks that the loved one who has depression is struggling to do especially because sometimes the weight of depression becomes so heavy that it's hard to complete those tasks and so to family and friends I would just affirm the support that you offer it's a gift with that measure and it provides hope to your loved one who has depression when they may question their own value or they may question their own dignity because of the burden of their illness so I say to you continue your good work my name is Joseph Ellis I'm a chemistry major biology minor here at Franciscan University I love the atmosphere just completely centered around the Catholic faith when I play soccer I'm in classes everything has that same Catholic attitude myself and a few of their chemistry majors have the opportunity to work with top scientists in order to combat neglected diseases I was able to connect my love for chemistry and also my love for mission work while synthesizing chemical compounds Franciscan University is academically excellent and passionately Catholic [Music] welcome back to Franciscan University presents today we've been talking about the topic of depression we've come to our final segment so we'll have our our kind of final points here Regis could you start us off yeah the the common place of observation to talk about depression is depressing but I think we've given it a fairly lively and I hope a helpful expression and I was really moved by what you were saying Scott at the end of that last segment recounting the experience of depression in your own family and it reminded me of a couple of things in a beautiful passage from Gabriel Marcel he talks about the ontological mystery which is the true prophetic tone of hope he says to pray or hope that someone I love will recover from even the most incurable of diseases means it is impossible that reality is not on my side that in its most inward depths it has somehow struck this chord of solidarity with me that all of heaven all the angels and saints conspire to ensure that this person I love will somehow recover I'm not alone and then the myth which I think thanks to the coming of Christ is actualized the myth of Orpheus and Euridice I think really illustrates this you know he nobody could sing as well as Orpheus and on the day of his marriage with Eurydice she dies she's stung by a bee and that's the end of the marriage but he is inconsolable and he insists on traveling into hell to rescue his bride and he persuades Pluto the god of the underworld because he plays his flute so well that even Pluto his heart is melted and he says okay you can go down and fetch her provided that when the two of you emerge into the daylight you don't look back well he doesn't look back to make certain that your idiocy is not far behind at that instant she falls again into hell and he spends the rest of his life missing her lamenting this loss and he's utterly inconsolable that it seems to me is the true nature of hope that you're not resigned to see your loved ones lost forever that you will endure that darkness that you will somehow soldier on because you're not alone I mean Christ is with us and that presence I I think is the ultimate consolation Thank You Regis Oh Scott well we've talked about the whole gambit you know in terms of the sacraments in terms of spiritual direction in terms of prayer and the priestly ministry of the church as well as friendship and solidarity and encouragement council and understanding you know I can't help but also wonder if an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure in this sense you know one of my favorite writers is Conrad bars and he talks about the importance of affirmation and this affirmation deprivation neurosis when people are on a firm they need to be healed I think when they're on a farm or prone to such things as melancholia I think as as parents but also in family relationships and in the church setting the need to find the good not to pretend not to make things up you know not up not to play here no evil see no evil but you know if there's anything good if there's anything true if there's anything excellent worthy of praise as Paul says in Philippians four think about these things and talk about them and especially in families you know in especially workplaces in a and in the churches you know it's so easy just to focus on the negative you know and if God did that we would not last you know and if if God can find the positive in us and enlarge that then we can certainly participate with him in doing that with our children especially and adult children as well as we have nine grandchildren now and a whole network of friends that really form you know a spiritual family and I think the more I experience friendship from others who affirm what is good and will also give me fraternal correction the more we really participate in the mission of Christ the more we advanced the new evangelization the more healing we can give to people even before the drastic measures become necessary and I and I think this dovetails nicely I've already praised you and thank you for your work and for your book and so I echo that again but I also want to encourage our viewers just to really enter into the affirmation of the Word of God who loves us into wholeness and to share in that in just little ways every day mm-hmm thank you Scott dr. well praise and affirmation is a spiritual good we can never as parents give too much of it it's right shoulder an accurate affirmation of ethros what I would like to say to those who are suffering from depression is that there is always hope that though you may emotionally or subjectively feel the absence of God Christ our Lord has gone with you my soul is sorrowful even unto death so while Jesus may not have experienced depression in the clinical sense of the term in the Garden of Gethsemane he endured not only our physical suffering and anguish but our mental anguish as well so he is there very very close to you even if you can't sense it even if you can't feel it and that that spiritual reality has to be the basis for our hope our divine filiation the knowledge that by virtue of our baptism which can't be eradicated I am a child of God God is my loving father who is very very close to me and who wants me to be close to him and may allow suffering for a period of time but ultimately he wants my good for family members or friends that are trying to help a loved one and sometimes feel inept or powerless what can I do remember that little things can be important I've read many accounts where someone said just you know my wife taking off my shoes and rubbing my feet and giving me that the tangible contact with reality that was the beginning of my recovery recall a story of a man who committed suicide tragically by jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco he was in his 30s his psychiatrist went with the medical examiner the man's apartment after his death where they found his diary and there was an entry written in the diary just a couple of hours before his death which said I'm going to walk to the bridge and if one person smiles at me along the way I won't jump so I use that as an example of this idea that I think we don't know all that we can be to another person no st. Paul says to the Colossians you have died in Baptism and your life is hidden with Christ in God and I think many times our acts of charity our acts of love and kindness you know we have to sort of just deposit them with God and trust that they're doing some good in the world or they're doing some good for this person who I love who is suffering even if I can't immediately see the tangible fruits of that even if I can't you know see the flowers that are that are going to bloom in a distant field because of my prayers or because of my my fasting and and my efforts to to be a better Christian so I would encourage all of those who are watching this to ask for and to try to build on the theological virtue of Hope which is so important in the life of a Christian Wow Wow thank you so much doctor that I don't think I could have summarized anything better thank you for being on the program if you enjoyed today's topic we have a handout for you it's actually from doctors book here on the Catholic guide to depression and it's free to download at faith in reason calm or just for asking this entire program Springs from the heart of Franciscan University and our mission is forming the students who are transforming the world and I want to invite you to be a part of that mission you can come in and join us at one of our summer conferences you can join us on a pilgrimage to the holy shrines around the world maybe you want to come and take get a degree take some classes online or here on campus maybe you can just visit us at faith in reason com there's videos from professors and speakers to grow your faith and deepen your ability to serve in the New Evangelization and until next time may the Lord bless you and keep you to download the free handout on today's topic go to faith and reason com email your request for the handout to presents at franciscan needy you at faith in reason comm you can also purchase past episodes of Franciscan University presents or request today's free handout and pushes past programs by calling 888 three three three zero three eight one that's eight eight eight three three three zero three eight one or call seven four zero two eight three six three five seven [Music]

Channel: Franciscan University of Steubenville

Views: 40,984

Rating: 4.9104085 out of 5

Keywords: Franciscan University, Steubenville, Ohio, Catholic, college, Franciscan University Presents, EWTN, Michael Hernon, Dr. Regis Martin, Dr. Scott Hahn, Dr. Aaron Kheriaty, depression, The Catholic Guide to Depression, psychiatry, University of California Irvine, clinical depression

Id: 8SIWlQ0ZUqY

Length: 58min 30sec (3510 seconds)

Published: Tue Aug 05 2014