Fr. Mike Schmitz | The Matt Fradd Show Ep. 12

g'day welcome to the Matt fried show I am obviously Matt Fred and I'm so glad that you are here today I just interviewed father Mike Schmitz for three hours ah-ha-ha-ha about everything we talked about the benefits of exercise we talked about the chaos in the church today and how we ought to respond we talked about how to discern our vocation we talked about unpopular moral teachings of the Catholic Church teaches we talked about Bishop Robert Barron and the good work he is doing and maybe some of the criticism he's receiving we talk about some other notorious clergy anyway you'll see it it's a very excellent episode you're gonna really enjoy it but I've got something really exciting to tell you before we get in so wait one second there is an app which has honestly changed my prayer life it's called hallo H al l o w you know how there's a lot of mindfulness apps out there today like calm etc maybe they're great but a lot of these apps tend to lead into new-age ways of thinking new age 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uses it we can't speak highly enough about it covenant eyes comm use the promo code Matt Fred one-word Matt Fred at checkout and you'll get a month for free all right here is the episode with father Mike Schmidt some of any innocence of children yeah [Music] anyway Flannery's great alright welcome thanks tell me about intermittent fasting my wife picks you up from the airport I told her that you need to eat before we do this my sustenance this is my sustenance right now yes she said he's doing intermittent fasting and I said of course he is so I am so there are a couple different protocols for intermittent fasting the most basic is a 16 18 16 hours yeah fasting an 8 hours per minute and then we know a little bit about also I heard that you what's the apical 0-0 super good tell me why I did it love it well cuz you ate in the morning no yeah in the morning and then eat at night that's right and I'm like no no I every day the the best thing is that I'm yes I'm saying no right now but in two hours I could say us so you know the hard thing about like religious fasting it's okay I'm fasting all day yeah there's no yes today yes tomorrow morning I get to and this is like no I'll just wait until 4:00 and then I'll be able to eat whatever I want more or less you know so the first protocol 16-8 but then as I kept doing it I kept reading more that at 16 hours was when some of the the health benefits really kick in and so like well I can extend it to an 18-6 or at 24 and it's been kind of fun it's fun to play with it also the thing I noticed is when I was doing the reading and listening to like the studies they would said that if you fast five out of seven days it's roughly the physical or health equivalent of fasting seven out of seven days it which is super flexible for myself so I can't I have at least two days a week if I wanted to I didn't have to do it and so I don't feel boxed in I don't feel like I'm being limited or being yeah it's feel free in it and so I have a buddy who started doing this some time last fall and he's like oh it's so great because I kept going on the all these like I'm gonna eat paleo or how many only you know the carnivore diet or whatever that kind of hairs and then I'd mess my meal prep up and not have the food and he was like the great thing about intermittent fasting is you don't have to do something you just don't do some thing how's a girl you just don't eat just wait yeah and it's been it's been really fun I like the intensity of it I'm not great at moderating things yeah but I'm good at being totally off the internet right or you know just reading this book I'm gonna get it done in a week or you know this was a thing so I like the intensity okay yeah cuz it's just like just don't do that until when your app says oh now you can yeah and yeah I've noticed that I've noticed change it's people always ask like okay this is like a spiritual thing well it's not doing well so the physical was the beginning but also had a spiritual component because I did exodus ninety this last January tour of the show so yes Joe fantastic and I'm gonna say something that they're not gonna like yeah so it's not a circus I started it two weeks before the starting of Exodus 90 the idea that okay if this doesn't work I'll just do the Exodus 90 fast but it does work this is gonna be my fast for the 90 days and he's make me excited in Austin TX in 93 and so um it worked out well that's what you think they wouldn't like yeah yeah don't mess the stuff you know got some strict but the thing I found is that any kind of discipline of saying no I just I get to exercise my will yes against my flesh essentially yeah is it has a spiritual component to it yes because not only does it have to do with the beginning of the day has to do at the end of the day so the beginning of the day is like yeah just kind of fast up until whenever you get to eat but then during the rest of the day it also has the sense of okay what am I gonna stop yeah cognizant get you're putting out good just shoveling it in yeah exodus Thani was great for me in that way too mmm-hmm because you realize how often you turn to food for leisure or even just kind of let that sense of boredom because it's there that like you know everything means something I remember coming across this quote then nothing is neutral to the soul and so when it comes to like well if you didn't doing this for health reasons well sure at the same time nothing is neutral to the soul yeah and so that sense of like oh me let me exercise discipline in this way that isn't strictly speaking purely spiritual yeah but at the same time has a definite experience like I want it's not like just because you're doing it even primarily for physical reasons that it de Peau has no consequence in your spiritual right yeah it's like exercise you know that you can recognize we realize that exercise well yep no this is for my eyes a little whatever yeah yeah I wanna be able to move when it also is uh you can lift that up you can offer that up you can yeah I mean that's what I mean and even if you weren't intentionally offering it up the discipline of bathing up in the morning and doing something you don't want to do is a good thing sometimes yeah absolutely no you don't want to I guess it does my spiritual director who's a hermit who lives up in the North Woods of Minnesota oh why you just say then so my spiritual director who is a home at up in the North Woods of Minnesota I have a buddy who says when he goes to visit him he's like it's like going to visit Gandalf what is his name hey Barry no no the illusion man I'm blanking it doesn't matter first name Roy calm down the Roy Jung all right so but he uh no he's like so he has us one-room cabin log heaven that is his father or grandfather built 100 plus years ago on this lake and she drive down this this dirt road and you know it's shrouded trees coming over it and he's standing on the porch waiting for you and come in and just kind of hey how's it going come on inside and it's just the best so he had said once um I told him that I used to do a lot of like racing and training in this kind of thing and he was okay this is good because when it comes to the spiritual life you know what discipline is you know how to like you need to do the thing that kinda is appointed in I think in that but I mean if there isn't always directly correlate you know if there's some sense of like you can bring a lot of intensity to I want to complete an Ironman triathlon and you can also bring a lessening of intensity to I want to be a saint right yeah so when you say for health reasons were you getting fat and wanted to look better or was it's you're sick and you wanted to be healthier well there's all the benefit because we're getting older right yeah yeah that's running out well not only does the metabolism start moving you know in the other direction yeah but also I've been I'd been training in a different way for myself personally over the last two years or so and and then trying to compete in that same field and so it's one of those things where I'm like okay good for you I need to this is just for fun obviously I'm not gonna go pro at 44 years old but at the same time one of the coaches that the the work I was doing was like you know pull-ups are really a lot easier when you weigh 20 less pounds yeah I was like yeah that's true yeah and so I started doing this and have you lost a lot of weight what 15 pounds have you from intermittent yeah yeah and I'm like wow pull-ups are easier I have 15 pounds out of my backpack yeah and I mean to do a lot more now did you find that when you were doing paleo and these different sorts of things that you were losing the same amount of weight it was always so short-term that I didn't experience any of the physical benefits that I could note until maybe six weeks of doing it and then I was my but my buddy who was like you haven't doing how's it how does it turn out and like I think it's not working for me I'll do this because of exodus 90 yep but then I don't think I'm really experiencing any of this and then about six weeks in that's like well oh wow yeah I now I can see a difference and I'm feeling a difference because another piece that they maintain is that you have a little bit more focus and kind of acuity I also noticed this may be more important for people who or whatever as you get older your testosterone levels go down and there's a guy seems rich Froning won the CrossFit Games four times in a row he's now in it what me must be early to mid-30s he started an intermittent fasting relatively recently and he said that his blood work was done and he was at some level say we'll say 400 testosterone level and just with changing intermittent fasting it doubled Wow and he said II didn't change anything else right and I noticed the sense of like okay when it comes to muscle growth that's really helped that's a nice and uh like Wow okay so one of the questions I have though is I workout in the morning a lot of people do I can't imagine getting up not eating and well so for myself and for rich I mean he would agree he's a little he so yesterday as an example I did I that little extra time I did two workouts had one workout at 6:00 a.m. and then I wanted to get on the rowing machine at like 1:00 o'clock okay and I did both workouts fasted and I didn't eat until like maybe two hours after that second workout Wow I feel completely fine now on day one of the intimate of intermittent fasting or if the first week would have you been like that I go what are you to do you think I think probably it's adjusted to it so now do you even have cravings yeah yeah that's why coffee exists yeah good part for me is the routine yeah so the reason I was cutting off all food around 4:00 p.m. so at 7:00 a.m. is I love waking up and my routine is there and it's like I usually black coffee or do some coconut milk I have some like you know some yeah thanks easily and yes I think that's the probably the hardest thing is giving up the routine you know I'm with you on that say well I had mentioned earlier I don't know know what the context was but having breakfast for the first time and however long yeah oh my gosh this is so good yeah why do I not have this more often yeah and but at the same time the flexibility and being able to say I can miss a day yeah that's completely fine like it's not the same thing as a diet it's more along the lines of it that's why you'd like to use the term protocol it's like no this is the habit I'm in or this is the purpose we do live in a very cushy existence you know that's talked about the oh my gosh see that I'm glad you said that because again part of that is again it could simply be why are they talking about intermittent fasting for the first however many minutes of this young a show and part of it is because we're rare we rarely uncomfortable yes like as far as first world kind of like I will go to the most comfortable route almost every single time unless there's something that's me either making me uncomfortable and ándale dispenser amazing how much we whine when something unnatural is imposed upon us like when we had a cold we think like this is totally the worst thing ever okay let's pause it since I started I haven't gotten sick haven't you not not once and that's really really rare for me because typically in the spring school starts back up I get you know some kind of cold then could get some kind of breaking you know this we should do it together what will our reward be reward so let's go my buddy Nick he he is he part brought it to my attention he was like you know he's like I haven't gotten sick once I'm like oh my gosh I have sounds like either yeah you hear these things and you just think this is another bloody fat yeah I mean we're certain it could be I mean the quiddity I got lucky hot and even if even if it is it's having good results yeah so the discomfort thing yeah that you know so I watched this documentary was it must been two years ago on a plane it was called the rise of the sufferfest and it was about the rise of the OCR or the obstacle course racing yeah and they called they were examining it was fun documentary just let people who go do these races but one of the things they were asking is so why do people do these races right now and there's a number of reasons they talked about how it the the popularity coincided with social media and that idea that on Monday morning you get to post a picture of yourself yes sir like in mud electrocuted by whatever and jumping over fighter faced by a mule exactly and you know you look at your you know your cubicle mate and say like how was your weekend would you do that sir you probably were in the garden or maybe you like lounge look what I was doing I was suffering yeah that that sense of I was doing something dramatic adventurous but also that sense of I always I was tested and that's a thing that I think we long for is I want to be tested yes like thank you this challenge we live like kings yeah if you can hire us honestly my gosh he didn't have a looks like he's slumming it you know I remember it I'm going to Madrid for World Youth Day mmm I'm touring this castle and it was beautiful and they showed us the this is the Royal bedroom and there's the bedpan and I thought what's that for yeah I'm like no the the person who was most well-off the person who was most comfortable was less comfortable than I am on any given day like that is I don't want it would you take him to keep the ignition on so it doesn't keep cutting out yeah no it's totally true and this is the beauty of exodus 90 working out those sorts of things because it is funny I mean we do tend to live under this illusion that if I could just live the life I want then I would be fulfilled you know then I might believe in God that my relationships would be good but comparatively speaking we live very comfortable lives not happy and we're bored and their relationships aren't necessarily great and well I think it goes back to the mistake that if I could just be at rest that the goal of life is to be at rest yes so the goal likes it to be have free time like to go the goal of life is retirement or vacation or as opposed to so a couple weeks ago I'm supposed to work the conference for a weekend and it just fell through and so I didn't have any assignment that weekend because usually if I'm not working at conference in the summertime I asked one of the parishes do you need any help and I'll just fill in there so the other priests connect you have free time it didn't happen so I was like well I'll just stay in Duluth and not and just say Mass for whoever's in town yep and and it's so funny because on any given Saturday where I'm like wrestling's like I need to write a homily like how is this going I'm just like you know beat myself up all day I think like would it be great to just have like a normal Saturday like normal human being yeah this is actually a weekend and then I have a Sunday where you get to like get up whenever and have coffee and it just kind of relaxed and I had that that weekend and I thought well this is nice I wouldn't want this to be every weekend yeah like I like the face funny you say that because as a father with four small children I sometimes think to myself wouldn't it be nice if they would just leave you yeah I could have a clean house I could read the books I want to read have the drink I want to drink at night pull over a friend and just live a calm or existence and it's so similar like if they go away the first day is actually really nice yeah I really like it I like the break I like being able to do what I want to do the day two or three comes I'm like I would hate to live like yeah we're in that that sense of like I've been exposed this to me the reality which is okay my goal is not to be at rest my goal is not to simply be on vacation my goal is not to I don't there yeah and then I can actually hopefully embrace and appreciate the fact that like no I think even a task yeah especially if the church is right and this is a veil of Tears yeah there will be a resting point yeah it is not in the veil of Tears so to kind of set up your lazy boy recliner and turn on Netflix and try to enjoy the veil of Tears as if it's heaven it won't work yeah I think that there's a piece of like let me give me a battle to fight or give me some kind of work to do and I think that's really good so let's throw a couple of objections at you from those watching who don't want to work out yeah and there's just three that I can quickly think of like one someone will say people are very vain they're turning it into a religion I see them all the time posting their pictures it's all about look at me look at me look at me well they'll say it takes charge time away from my family and it's it's kind of unreasonable to ask that of somebody also like maybe they grew up and they were they were made fun of by jocks and they have this stereotype of what it means to be someone who works out ya know that's what I like all of those I like the third one too because I still I still have even though I did sports as a kid I was never any good at anything that was hand-eye coordination or thought eye coordination or any coordination so things like oh and it wasn't even very good I started I I was I remember I started swimming competitively at six years old or seven years old and I remember being 4 years the slowest kid in the slowest Lane like out of all these you know I don't know how many kids were in the pool at the time out of all of them I'm in the slow lane and out of all of those kids I'm the one everyone's waiting for I hated it so much swimming is this the worst it's so hard and so I'm looking at people cheering from the sidelines as you're sigmaz than you well the worst is also when you're swimming in a race and you're so slow that they cheer for you when you finish it's like CrossFit yeah if people should I go to CrossFit three times a week and if at the end if I cuz I it's very bad at it and there's multiple occasions where I'm the last so close to the last and I'm like if they like like you've got cancer I glare at them like it's like when I'm throwing up in the toilet I don't mind is it coming in through my back like turn your eyes from - you know that's it so there is a little residual I can relate to someone who would say like I was teased by jocks or idea like that at the same time I also recognize in myself I have to get over that and so that's one of the tasks I get to do is I in a look at it like that I get to get over this because I'm carrying this whether it's a wound or I'm carrying this assumption or kingless resentment that yeah but by and large is not present to me but when I have to like face it and say okay I'm gonna try to do something that's gonna bring me out of my comfort zone now I think wait why do I resent hockey and I do I bring it up every time someone mentions hockey like oh you from Minnesota you like hockey like I hate hockey let me tell you how much I hate hockey I hate hockey because boys swimming is a winter sport in Minnesota and boys hockey is a winter sport in Minnesota and if you live in Minnesota in your boy swimmer you don't get any ink in the paper as if I still value that like what am I even thinking yeah um but I get to get over that because I want can you put that I get to get over that here's an opportunity for me and I live and work at University of Minnesota Duluth yeah which is back-to-back national hockey championships and I'm like no because I have been young men in mass who are part of this team like yes you are helping me get oh I do not have time to hear you okay not you know but I get to get over it for their sake to imagine it's like what is thank you gonna point number two is you had said I'm working in reverse order a problem at that time IV with another time shows to the time and that's legit and I would say like you know to go to CrossFit for an hour show up you're done in an hour I know that there are plenty of worse ways that can spend an hour of time and also there's plenty of ways I can spend that hour of time that make me a worse person but I know when I spend that hour of time I feel better you feel better and the rest of the day yeah I've got more energy yeah and so there's there's a there's a benefit now there's a what do you call it trade-off yeah the world over diminishing returns so I used to do travel or Ironman triathlons in marathons I haven't done any since I was ordained which has been my last Ironman Triathlon was in the year 2000 well dine in 2000 yeah I was renamed in 2003 I was injured the last couple of years of my seminary in side-entry I did other races I feel like some 24-hour ski races so just see ski for 24 hours and cross-country ski and this is me going on a 10k loop for 24 hours no many times as possible when do you sleep you don't sleep you just keep skiing and see I thought that was awesome and I still think it's awesome but I don't have time to Train like that so at some point you realize okay I don't have time to train like that yeah but do I have an hour yeah do I have 20 minutes sure no I have a sister who is all my family still exercises as part of like I'm so grateful to my parents because they were never athletes when they were kids but when they became adults they're like no we need to be healthy and so my dad even in medical school he would run at least one mile a day and they'd look at that now if anyone sinks one mile a day are you kidding me that is eight minutes you're done I mean if you're going into decent pace but then he started doing things he started doing Ironman Triathlon started doing cross-country ski marathon running marathons my mom started doing the same thing so time with dad was hits go run together or you guys ride your bike while I go for a run yeah and it was just that like that's what we do and then when we can't we became like adult kids of our parents it was how we spend time together is we train for a marathon we train for a triathlon and that's why I got to know my dad actually Wow is um to be out on a bike for four to five hours riding with your dad yeah it's like what do you talk about a second was something fun and that was just this been a huge gift so there's something that's kind of it was considered to be really normal like this is you ate today you slept today worked out today you went to work today all these kind of things you prayed today that was just like this is what healthy day looks like that's good again the diminishing returns is is there a limit and I think there is right but at the same time but it's almost like is that really your problem this is kind of what I think would be begin to talk about spiritual warfare yeah and the first thing Christians do is say we shouldn't look for Satan under every rock and I think really is that what you need to be dealing with right now I just think you know like is that is a legitimate concern we don't want to find sitting in the heavy rock and it is true that one can O go overboard like I can neglect my family so I can keep working out that's true how likely is that to happen right maybe it's possible but I think for most of us we should just start with that's exactly the X TV seen those people I've seen those people if some of these races where it's like okay you I mean they you should stop I mean there's you should lay in a pile of warm laundry any bread week there is a sense where it's like you know the Iron Man Widow they could call it that that is yet during the training season is so we don't get to see dad at all like okay well that's an issue so my sister gets around this she is just the most intense I have three sisters cool they're all very intense and two brothers who are both the very intense kind of intense people yep but Amy she's an orthopedic surgeon mother of three wife of one and she will she trained for this ultra triathlon so Ironman Triathlon is 2.4 mile swim 112 mile bike 26.2 mile run the ultra versions are longer than that goodness but as an example she would get up and she'd say okay even though I'm working and doing these things remember one day two summers ago she had like a five hour bike she had to do on a Saturday we're all home cuz it's like a vacation time like movie fourth of July so she got up at 3 mm-hmm he got on the trainer inside to run ride three hours before the Sun came up and then two hours so she was done by 8:00 so she could be present to the family I'm like okay Amy I three I respect that a lot and I wouldn't want to be that kind of person she crashed but the thing is like it when do you get tired so you know they say that there's only 2% of the population that can function on like four hours sleep or whatever I didn't know that but so it's very very smack sense yeah Mike ahead and my my one of my older sisters I think they have that genetic Wow I do I thought I always thought as a kid that growing up my growing when you get older when you come an adult that you don't need to sleep because my dad never slept Hugh did the same thing he would um he was rested he wasn't frantic and anxious Alden never seemed like that he would get called in you know a min or he'd come home from work at 9:00 yeah he'd something like hey Dad how you doing he could call back in at 11:00 he'd come back home at 3:00 he'd get up at 5:00 and run for ten miles and then go back to work and I thought that's what you do when you get older that's how you live yeah I don't know it turns out that is what some people can do Wow so I think that I think you will nail it the one you said that yeah it's if someone if that's their problem then we can identify it then yeah that's right well it and then the other thing is people will say like it's very vain yeah let me just say a word about that before you address it have you heard of resent him more this were this French word of resentment that need users yes yeah the idea for those who aren't aware is that you resent in someone what you feel yourself impotent to it lacking yeah yeah so if I look at you with your intermittent and fasting and you're working out and I genuinely feel like I could not attain that I have two options right I can look at you and celebrate what you're doing or I could say you know what like father Mike takes himself too seriously and really like what I'm doing yeah being with my family and and like sleeping in the moor and being with the kids like that is really how I should live yeah right now it's not it's not to say that that can't ever be the case you know but the place it's coming out of is just resenting you because I can't attain it and I do think that it's true that people who post CrossFit photos and these things maybe a lot of it comes from pride right but I think it's equally plausible that when people see these online and get upset it says more about them than the people they're watching absolutely I I love that too I'm gonna use in a homily someday but that sense of yes so if someone were to say but there's a danger of vanity yes there is I could also take pride in the fact that I don't work out there's plenty of people who do that plenty of people who take we can take pride in almost anything or find ourselves in identifying getting our identity from like I'm the one who doesn't do X or I'm the one who does something else I remember John Paul the second head warned against though well I think he called the cult of the body so in the theology of the body this they know this the recognition the body reveals something deep and profound at the same time there is the danger of the cult of the body and you say yeah absolutely and so but just because you're avoiding one extreme doesn't mean you have to go to the other extreme okay and so how do I just because obesity is bad doesn't mean I should strive to be an NX anorexic right yeah yeah that sense of like arguing just because it's possible to be overly interested in one's appearance that doesn't mean that yourself go exactly and I just think about that in in so many terms I mean again think of yeah this is Aristotle right the virtue is a mean between the extremes of virtue of excess and deficiency right yeah and so I'd say that someone could say yeah that could be there and that could be their Vice vanity could so is the solution to having a vice of vanity to not care or to treat yourself to denigrate something that's been declared good yeah or to be don't care for that yeah doesn't mean you have to so would you say generally speaking that working out is almost a moral imperative or keeping your body fit generally speaking and obviously there are circumstances exceptions where someone doesn't have the time or is sick or yeah but have you when I would yeah I would yeah we would say in the sense at least to the extent that also it's more imperative to exercise our minds mm-hmm that you're into developer intellect to the gift to use of the gifts we've been given and if one of the gifts I've been given is my mind that I need to exercise yeah and it's just like letting your mind go by an indulging and stupid choice and reading dumb books and pornography or not reading yeah would clearly be detrimental and and bad vicious yeah like to think of the idea that but if I let my body go somehow that's virtuous right or at least morally neutral ya know as opposed to being a steward yeah realizing okay actually I am a steward at all the things that I've been given right now a lot of fat people are offended to this this is this is trip right like so this might get back to resent him or not right but as soon as we start saying take care of your body like be in shape there's people who aren't in shape who I have to think because if I was them I'd be like screw you guys ready not I mean yeah and I don't know what do you say to that um I would say what do you define as in shape so as an example I would say that yes if my version of fitness is this impossibly high to attain it have to look like so and so then that's gonna be self-defeating in the first place as opposed to like no you've been given a body move you don't have to not to move like this person you don't have to look like anybody I mean that's a thing it's like we have this so did this false vision I mean because think of all the things I can think of all the things I dislike about my body kind of a thing and ya can lift that actually define me or discourage me or whatever like I suppose she's saying well no I mean I can move I can go for a walk I don't have to go to CrossFit I can go for a walk I don't have to run marathon like I can do Zumba like dance or I know some people who's just like I like dancing like that is a way you're using your body you don't have to be any shape or size or look any particular way but do you enjoy dancing then dance you know move and that's what it say if Samer someone was saying that they'd be it would be insulted or offended it does say a lot about the person who's chooses to be offended because we choose to be offended we don't I mean that's the bottom line is take offense is a decision but to clarify for anyone who's watching is to say that it's a moral imperative to take care of what you've been given there you go that's the general principle is the principle and and to analogize the body to the intellect like we did before like saying I need to develop my intellectual faculty isn't to say I need to be like Thomas Aquinas right even something yeah exactly yeah I mean just even think that the difference is with the body you can see sometimes how somebody has let themselves go whereas it's not immediately obvious if they've let their intellect go right yeah it's a visible it's a at the same time that's probably the the part of him someone might struggle with because they could say like no actually I do exercise I do workout and I don't look like this Adonis type person and I'd say then we need to recalibrate and reframe what we really think of in terms of what Fitness is or what just utilizing what you've been given so so I've been doing Crossfit as well last couple years and there are so many people at the gym at the box who like will beat me on a regular basis and I'm like how are you beating me but they are fit even if they don't necessarily come across as being [ __ ] or they're super strong you're saying they don't necessarily look like CrossFit right but they're beating you in the sense of like so I need to reformulate the idea of like what looks like Fitness versus what is fitness and so if someone is like saying like you know I've been exercising for however long and I don't look like a model or don't look like whatever like yeah that's not the goal and so when I go to CrossFit the it sounds like a cliche but I'm really going to beat me yesterday mm-hm there was this really humbling experience I had a couple of years back where you know I'm gonna say I went across fit and it was late in the afternoon 4:00 p.m. and I got there and I was stretching and didn't look like anyone else was coming then oh here comes someone and she's almost nine months pregnant and I say well at least I won't lose today so he come last today thinking that was a safe comment and that they would laugh with me they didn't laugh and she beat me yeah she pregnant beat me no that's how did the first day I went in I never thinking like okay this is the thing where you check your ego at the door yeah and that first day I was beaten by every woman who is in the in the gym that maybe like one or two I didn't but that's a regular big Euler scenario where there are so many people who are better than me cool and I mean I there's there's no need hi friend like in my experience when I travel the country all sometimes go to a CrossFit gym and I find that there is general that humble atmosphere so you go in this and posture and sumo who would serve very rarely very rarely like if you go to like ule you got a Google Maps type in CrossFit and you start looking at the reviews almost I'm certain one of the first things you'll see it's like very welcoming inviting yeah it cuz it is that like no matter how fit you are there's someone who can make you look how you make me look right exactly and so that's one of the things I did a video about to church on CrossFit and what we can like learn cool I didn't arm didn't know that but one of these not been published yet but um but one of the one of the things is if you can't do this you scale yeah and so when it comes to the spiritual life is like I'm out cuz I can't I can't make a holy hour like we're talking about Fitness all it's kind of easy time and all that I can't make a holy are you kidding me I can't pray a rosary every day or whatever the I think the hmm the level is okay exactly and then you go to one of these boxes and so if you can't do it do this do this do what you can do whatever you can along your fitness journey or something and there's one of the coaches who says like that wherever you're at on your fitness journey do this and so the other day I have been kind of injured a little bit with a hip thing and I said to the one of the coaches I said how much think come in today cuz I saw was a lot of squats and listen extra no always come in even if with a broken leg we get you to do something else yeah like we'll always find something you can do yeah not something you ever can't do and they we brought that up brought that to the spiritual life I mean think about how easily discouraged people are when it comes to their prayer life said well I can't I see and we have this this spirit of comparison an evil spirit of comparison that like infects a lot of communities our community on campus happens a lot because they're living in the same and their innocence is not just seeing each other on Sundays missing each other every single day and so like I noticed that she's she's pregnant she's not always in holy hour or he's always doing this he's leading a publicity why was he what was this person asked to do this and this and there's that spirit of comparison that says well I can't do what they're doing the nines can't do anything versus yeah that spirit of like a scale it yeah what can you do and to be free with that as opposed to I'm somehow failing like you're not yeah I think that's why people give up right and it's because they don't want to scale because scale means failure I don't like feeling like a failure so if I don't try it to fail yeah yeah completely ingested yeah like we said it also I like the rhyme yeah scale sky or fire the only spell um we've quite we're talking a little about productivity yeah it's kinda what we're talking about and it seems like there's this new emphasis on productivity you and I use the same what's it called the daily journal we use this I use this planner whole focus planner by Michael hi hi yeah I went out and I bought it I've gone through six of them or so yeah it's really helped me a tremendous deal what I'd like to talk about is being [Music] orderly and being productive but then also the perils of only ever trying to be more and more productive and how just like it's true that the goal of life isn't just to sit back and rest in a sense it's not to work or have you read papers book on leisure the basis of culture yeah yes let's talk about that yeah cuz you're a productive fellows I bless you me I like being productive yes I will start what's your daily routine the flag comma so I wake up good start thank you Erin don't tell anyone you woke up every person from that since the dawn of time has been starting their day by waking up listen I'm from the office okay just you guys suddenly I'm awake so now get about 5:00 every morning unless it have to give it four and then go work out why don't you have to get up at four if I can't get make it to the six a m-- work up and I'll go to the viola market I just have to felt strong sorry unless there's a reason that there's an so and then I'll get them with that and come back we have a holy hour like a community holy hour cool and then from after the holy hour usually until noon I will do like like work that has to get done what I mean by working it's work that I can do alone so a correspondence writing reading calling people back ping bills whatever that kind of just that stuff that I just need some work time what kind of homily that kind of stuff we're gonna talk and then at noon is typically when I'll start my like meetings and unless it's a strange time where it's like no the only time that people can meet order before noon in which case make the adjustment and then from noon basically on until say 10:00 or 11:00 is either meeting with people or teaching a class or doing a Bible study or its that's when all the interpersonal stuff happens and so in the morning is its physical and spiritual and then the rest of the morning is work and then the rest of the day is per relational to 10:00 or 11:00 at night yeah yeah and then and usually like to end the day that masses in there of course and prayers throughout the day and the best thing about a good day is another 30 minutes it likes just mental prayer before going to bed where it's just that's some of my favorite prayer time because the other times are like okay I need to put this in and this is just where I get to just be with the Lord and there's no agenda it's just I'm not trying to write a homily I'm not trying to figure out anything for a talk I'm not trying to learn anything I just want to be there to follow yeah and that's really important as such a window get your alone time like what's the thing you crave if you're with people a lot I mean am i long time ya know but then what is it that you do when you're alone or anything just so long with yet alone huh yeah I think so me too yeah even introvert yes me too yeah so it was um I also have recently started cooking supper for myself in a way that like I would just usually like make a sandwich or throw something on the grill and recently I've been doing like I know I'm actually gonna make a meal that takes a recipe and like there's a side here and and it's just sometimes like no this is like a human's eat and even if I'm eating it by myself that's so uh oh poor guy even somebody yourself like no no no no you know I've been at people all day even like that bed timer I'm like I'm just doing my work excuse me very really rarely alone exactly so it's so nice yeah a big fear and going before going into seminary was like ah so lonely like oh my gosh if only I was long like yeah but that's not mean I know you're kind of joking there but it'll be lonely isn't isn't the same thing as being alone that's right yeah yeah a lot of lonely people who are busy all day long with be completely yeah okay let's turn off so the daily planner has really helped me you better do your top three things gonna get done that day at the start of every week right here's the top three things and get done this week and that's all great but I do worry sometimes if we've forgotten how to just sit down and waste time yeah in the proper sense yeah I don't do that very well yeah so when it comes to leisure I really have to work for it internally and so um that means but that doesn't mean planning it planning for it and I'm okay with planning for it in the sense of saying sometimes I'll write it down in that sense that this is going to be time where I just get to do nothing gets it I get to be a piece and I think there is that badge of honor of like I'm really busy yes and that is something that's affected me a lot of times we're just saying I was gonna describe my dad's routine and like even in retirement he makes a list every morning of like when he's found that that he needed that in retirement because he was like what do I do and what day but uh yeah I think I remember thinking that I never imagined my dad taking a nap I still can't imagine him taking a nap but I can't imagine myself taking a nap and there's days we're like no it's okay yes if someone asked me what were you doing I will maybe embarassingly and they're asleep maybe with embarrassment say ah rest of my eyes yeah but there's like why because I have to be working yeah see this is something the father has been cooling out in me over the last few weeks I keep saying to the father like what do you want like what are you doing in my life and the word I keep getting is I want you to stop hiding yeah and what you just said there is something I'm infected with - so are you laying down and someone comes in and I feel the need to step up and pretend like do Young's I was doing something oh bye-bye-bye what is that let's get the mayor I'm hiding I'm hiding right yeah cuz cuz it's so it's like I'm not reconcile - this is okay and I you know I've bought into that lie and that agreement that I have to be constantly productive able to be valuable or something but it's beautiful these things coming up no cuz I that that is something that I can default to and say no I'm being a Stewart again that sense of being a steward of my time or of the Lord's time sure but the Lord in his time set a day outside for rest yeah and even just think thinking of like how in the Old Testament you'd let a field lie fallow hmm and like no this is gonna we're gonna give even the field rest here and like oh well yeah but no I'm a Stewart I gotta use it yeah I remember st. John annoy Minh he's went first and our inner concerns yeah that I I remember reading a story that said that when he was ordained he made a promise to never waste time and that stuck with me as it would like okay so st. John Norman would never waste time I do waste time so I mean I recognize that in myself and it's always a source of embarrassment it's always maybe you can say it like you more serious our source of shame mm-hmm yeah of like like you said someone comes in then knocks on the door like okay I was not resting and I was working yes no it's really good for I live the house as I said where I live is where all the students are and so it's it's almost as if the door to my like little living area was made of glass because they can hear everything on the other side of the door like I remember when one of the guys he was like father's so last and I stopped by the new one house last night and I didn't know you like Taylor Swift like what I heard you rocking out to dealers but last night like listen that was not for you to hear and that was it was a it was a cover band and it's a great song and see I appreciate you minded my own business yes it's getting but um but there is such a a fishbowl being a dad right I mean your dad yeah it's like that it's like well I heard like you know yes watching a movie what were you watching there's a lot of explosions a lot of people yelling like oh yeah it was whatever transformers frustrating doesn't but first well well when it hits Thrun it is when it doesn't hit the wound it's like oh yeah that's me you know and so so when it's you should have been more productive were you not working into the into the night like no I I stopped and I put on a movie yeah like if I'm okay with that if I'm a free that's fine yeah but if I'm not then it's like I'm embarrassed yes and sometimes that embarrassment can come out of I really respect this person and they even like a student I really like or I want to be seen as holy in their eyes yes and I want them to look up to me as that yeah the spiritual father who's really pursuing Jesus and I want to be those were not shouts those were chants from the soul time I don't know if they understand it might have some talent Michael Scott with not that's it was me praying all up so when hits the wound then it really does it wakens that that embarrassment or a shame even how do you deal with that I think naming it is a big deal that's something this don't hide stop hi yeah I don't think I could have named it four months ago you know like camera and the kids come home they've been out for a couple of hours I'm sitting down watching something on Netflix or I'm learning minecraft you know so I want to get into admitting that it's me not hiding by the way yeah it's so good right doing that and then I'll hear the garage door opener and there's this sense of oh shut it but I was doing that unconscious yeah and I'm like what is that and then I thought naturally back to when I was younger and how when mom and dad came home things better be clean yeah to be in order I shouldn't be you know I'd be maybe picked on for certain things or I can't do that and you start to live out of that place but naming it it's probably a no I think that resonates to like I'm thinking of the UM we always had to be doing something and that's one of the things you mentioned in the garage door opening like okay so my older brother and I would have to on Saturday mornings so I'm not sure if this had this in Austria in the United States if cartoons they're all America they got lines that people have they were animated who's fast easy television yeah we call the telly here but the mark and I my brother would get up I mean it would we get up so early that Friday night programming was still on because we just like if we can get up we have to sneak by my parent's room yeah because we want them to sleep in as long as possible because once they get up yes it'll work once we get up pick it up it's like why are you watching TV like okay well because this is fun on the television but this is not time for fun it's time to work okay I understand that as parents you need to raise like it there's a discipline there's there's a gap we're going to work now and it's nice outside so get outside and do something completely understand that so I'm not like blaming it's more like hot that did do something where I could get caught relaxing I'm gonna get caught resting yes like what I'm not busted I was choosing to rest isn't that okay so the great thing about this for me has been helpful has been um being exposed to other people's families where I you see I can picture this right now the dad is like I'm just gonna go take a quick snooze that's in the middle of the afternoon and he's like not embarrassed about it and they're like great and you're blushing for him I'm so free yeah and there's something in that of like I know he's not lazy he works really really hard and but he also yeah I'm gonna go golf I'm gonna go take a break I'm gonna go do this yeah this would be fun just how about always just go rest over here and thinking there's another way to live like not just hear about it but to be exposed to it and to be exposed to the like the potential like freedom that someone reveals like no I'm not I'm not worried about you thinking I'm lazy mm-hmm I go well that might I mean I don't have to be worried about you thinking I'm lazy or like silly for getting interested in Minecraft yeah I think it's one of the reasons why I sometimes bring up my like affinity to comic books even yeah is cuz I need to like claim it in some ways that's something that I know my family members whatever would think maybe is silly mm-hm someone to bring it on it I'm gonna own it a little bit because yeah I understand it is superfluous and it's unnecessary risk okay yeah you know just kind of part of the point yeah yeah I remember taking the screen the fly screen off of my window sneaking out and walking around the back to the family room to play video games in the morning less my parents would yell at me to get back to bed yeah and it's interesting what you said there because yeah we both agree you as parents you want your children not to just veg and you want them to not be lazy these are good things but to be caught doing what you enjoy which is legitimate is a strange thing and can lead you to believe false things about yourself so the hiding thing again he's saying that it comes back to me so um a little while ago my mom way buddy might have been two years my mom was talking with some other moms of priests there's a little group in our diocese mops I called them the mops that's great and what does a mother of mothers of priests and so they're kind of checking in and like what's father so-and-so do want spotless and then one of them said what's father Mike doing to my mom and she said well you know he's always been kind of our secret agent man like he doesn't always tell us what's going on mm-hmm and she told me that she had said this and I was like oh yeah that's true but then I've been right it's been a couple years now and I it comes up again and again like like wait a second so that's true I don't always share like with my family what's going on unless they directly ask then of course I'll tell them it kind of course and I think wait what is the pattern inside of my life that isn't is the secret agent man in the sense of like I'm not gonna be free to share all the things I'm thinking about or the things I'm concerned about things I'm interested in like even said like video games if I was interested in that would I ever like share that or what I think it's something I would want to hide yeah and not even like we're not talking sin here we're just talking what I care about yes like what is that it's in your heart the sin thing is a whole nother issue but it's not about hiding that it's about hiding what's most interior to those who you at least claim to love and trust the most I'm thinking like why is that why would I be hesitant for that and I think one of the things I recognized is if I can control it then I'm not vulnerable yes and that sense of you can't say that's silly because you don't know that I'm interested in that kind of thing yeah and so I I can think of how many times I would have like rushed downstairs and like oh my gosh in the latest flash comic book this happened and like okay [ __ ] whatever like okay nerd or not even there'd like just that doesn't matter yes like that doesn't matter yeah like oh yes very good let's talk about agreements we make because this is language that the other Catholics aren't familiar with because you know let's just take that as an example I'm not speaking for you but something similar where you go downstairs and you show your parents and like you know oh and and you can make these subtle agreements about like I was having it today driving here to the to the studio what is this Matt Fred show thing I'm doing and I was listening to people who I consider much more intelligent than me and just bubbling up within me without me choosing any of it was accusations like you're not like that like you're not as intelligent as him you might like people to think that that's not true why are you even doing this it was all this and I'm like whoa and I wonder how often I don't even address that right it's just all day long there's these accusations revelation 12 verse 10 Satan is called the accuser of our brethren dinner and I had to stop I said Jesus what is the lie what what lie am i believing because the lie isn't he's smarter than me I mean that might be true mm-hmm but the lie I'm believing is you I'm a fraud I've somehow tricked people into watching this show and doing plants with Aquinas yeah and I've got away with it up until now but soon they'll discover you have nothing that it's vacuous okay and so in my car I said in the name of Jesus Christ I renounce the lie that I'm a fraud and did not have gifts to share but then I balance that out with an announcing that in Christ I am a beloved son who has been entrusted with gifts that I can share yeah and I found that incredibly liberating well seriously it's um one of the things that I've come to recognize there's a lot of times those lies you can't argue it's not or the accusation you can't argue with the accusation because they'll always have proof hmm so it's not so for example um some of your other guests you've had on the show or super-smart or have really brought you I'm watching this and going wow they presented an argument that was so articulate and so incredible that I I'm not able to articulate yes now if I were saying that's not true it is true yes there's proof and here's this person who presented this particular argument see and here's me bap rambling on about in CrossFit see like they'll always be proof and so every accusation the only reason it has power is because it has some kind of degree of proof where the person you're listening to really smart yeah proof there it is that's true but it but it's not all true yes and that's the piece that I want to pay attention to is like what's the lie that's mixed in with the truth yeah that I'm believing I'm swallowing the lie because I because it's mixed up with truth in that sense of being able sick so this is a limiting belief I'm gonna whack Takano Michael Hayek and everything is the limiting belief is partly true but not entirely true yes and so that's why it gets us to agree with it yeah thank the accusation comes and we agree with it because it's like well no I can see this and if something you start to argue with me and say no no it they're not that great or that whatever like no I have proof to this okay how to get out of it you went to the heart of it which is Jesus you're the Redeemer your healer that line from Genesis let there be light yeah he's a prayer that I say when I'm dealing with this like let it be light yeah let me see and so yeah it's it's great because the what's the thing in here what's the thread that isn't true so it is true that he's smarter than me and I'm more articulate on these topics that's true glory and Jesus Christ yeah it's not true what's not true is because he is smarter or she is smarter in these areas either for have nothing to offer right it's not true that I'm a fraud it's not true that this is coming entirely ya have a place of ego well that's the thing is like so there's this thing called wise mind so incognito or CBT cognitive behavioral therapy or dialectical behavior therapy DBT there's this theory and again not expert but I read stuff yeah that would say that we can have our like emotional mind that is like I like yakking the accusation the I feel worthless so I feel worthless emotional mind I am a rational mind that says but no I no no I I am worth something I want something so some of these therapists will say what you want to cultivate is wise mind because if I say I feel worthless but no no no no you're not you're not I'm trying to have my rat reason fight my emotions why is mine would say I'm not gonna fight I feel worthless and I know that I have great worth in Christ or I feel like I'm not arguing that I don't feel this way I do feel this way that's true and at the same time I know that Lord Jesus says I'm worth his death you know like okay so I avoid the whole battle and just being able to acknowledge here's what's going on I think sometimes that can i cannot-- rate because because what we do is we grow on these rabbit trails of fighting fighting what we're feeling and saying I shouldn't be feeling this way yeah we have Irish feelings great I'll even in the Catholic faith we say love isn't a feeling right well of course it's a feeling it's also a decision that feelings speak to something true right and so that's why you're saying to shut that down is to dismiss what it's saying or where its arrival is coming from yeah so I again goes back to the worthless all right feel unlovable there's so many people I feel unlovable and you say no to all you people love you you don't they don't know me yeah they only love me because they think that if they really knew me they wouldn't so I still feel unlovable the true me does okay how do you argue that you can't argue with it you say it's true I feel unlovable and yet I know not yet and I know that love has been declared over me and there's a there's a there's a thing in there where I'm not gonna go with I'm not gonna fight a fight that I have not been asked to fight I realize that this is the truth is how I feel and this is the truth about Who I am and both can exist at the same time I would say a lot of times like but I shouldn't feel this way whenever I'm talking to students who say that I say don't [ __ ] on yourselves like you do feel this way yeah so I can acknowledge it admit it you're not a failure because you feel this way you just can't feel this way that was great yeah but I keep going back to the hiding yeah you know so like what is it because they especially when you come up with examples of stuff we always I always go to the the easy examples and things like oh I don't mind if people know this about me as opposed to what is it that that silly things that I would want to be hidden for example here's a you go no bench in the agreement um I was listening to a or I say reading a Brene brown book but I wasn't I was listening to a burn hey brown most excellent so I want to clarify that because my season you're listening I look okay finals listen act is it doesn't matter truth is you may wish to present a version of yourself the folsom yes because it looks in my mind it looks smarter yes you know exactly and to it does driving and listening to this book and one of the things I think it was her somewhere else maybe who's speaking about not just the agreements but also the hidden rules and the hidden rules that we agreed to essentially and that is the idea of Commack going back to laziness lazy people take naps hard workers never take naps my dad's a hard worker you never took nap I want to be a hard worker I want taken that Saints are productive because what is it st. Teresa of ávila maybe he's quoted as saying hell is full of the talented heaven is full of the industrious okay like yeah yeah so I may never watch the office get things done you know kind of and that's getting things done is now holiness yeah like but but is it and if we conflate those I have agreed to that hidden rule like Oh in that case I must get things done in ice now this is good how do you get people to begin recognizing these agreements they've made about themselves and usually in conversation it comes up yeah because that's just like I have become intolerant of people telling me that this [ __ ] oh yeah thinking fun of them said yes you know I can't take it anymore because I might don't do that and they're joking don't do it anyway yeah you're a beloved son I know you don't you know yeah that's a good point yeah um cuz I really do like to hear what's going on because then you can Nate call it name it right you identify and say what you are what you are telling me right now is not the truth I mean it's the truth about like what you're experiencing mm-hmm but if that's the agreement you've made then let's let's let's look at that and so actually rather than actually sorry let me back up you said how do you reveal this to equal it reveal it reveals itself in conversation and then I find myself a lot of times saying where's that where's that come from yeah and that's the the next level and so then it's like it often it's like the fish saying where's this water right where everyone's talking about it's just we don't realize that it's not natural to be cynical of everybody right skeptical yeah everything well and you know when someone says and I think sometimes it's helpful to have someone else there because someone can say like oh my arm hurts like okay like where well the arm is just the whole thing is numb will care about this does this hurt like know that there is a certain no not this right when you bend it is this one that's when it hurts so my dad being the physician like I've seen him do that a thousand times like my my knee hurts okay let's go through it and they just deal around and that's like spiritually in some ways what I find myself doing all of the time is what about this mm-hmm that's fine what with this and that's fine okay bat that's the point of pain so what I thought was my whole arm hurts it's actually just this and only when I do this and so when someone says like I'm just feel worthless okay look we're not coming from like another question I asked is when you hear the those words you're worthless when you hear the words whatever the words are yeah whose voice is that like who does that sound like yeah like what do you mean like does it sound like a friend a this sound like someone who loves you sometimes it's like no this doesn't sound like someone who loves me B sometimes he actually just sounds like my mom okay so question harder to answer when you hear your mom's voices these are are these her loving words or these are words that came out of her own brokenness you know the kind of a place of accusation or place of woundedness because that's gonna tell you a lot like no I'm my mom or even my dad once said this yes and that's what I hug they hooked on to and as powered me now what do you think the the idea that you know sometimes we downplay the trauma we've experienced because it's objectively not as grave right serious is somebody else's trauma but it could be the case that when you were a kid your dad said something you misunderstood and yeah maybe even about yourself whereas this person over here may have received something much more objectively serious but didn't make an agreement by themselves so it's always a red flag for me when someone says it's not a big deal yeah yeah because if it may if it leaves a mark it left a mark and that's I think that's when it comes down to it is I mean I so there's this scar on the back of my hand and if you can see that yeah that was I was tussling with someone in a hallway and there's a plastic light switch that scratched and it was only ever a scratch it never like there's no stitches here I've got same thing look at this sir the camera will be very bored but you see that there yeah that was from a cardboard box in a refrigerator at work and someone thought I'd tried to kill myself it was one of those wax-coated yeah yeah this thing so this has left a mark it did not break mm-hmm all the layers of skin it didn't even cut that deep but left a mark and I can say well it shouldn't have left a mark okay fine don't [ __ ] on yourself that sense of whatever it left a mark therefore I mean I just think is a story I'll share often about a woman I know who never want to be picked up she may be a matriarchal role in my life and you know as kids as young man growing up you want you want to pick up your mom and my mom is not big she's small woman but when she was like four years old there was a friend of her dads who visiting went to pick her up and I said whoa you're a heavy one oh and that's what stuck with her whoa yeah and you think one guy one time said this so that even this woman who is not big at all yeah at all and her strapping young sons you know who want to pick her up and could easily do it like no you can't because I'm too heavy think okay that's a lie that how did you get to that Lyle how did that end up coming to the surface at that I remember she wants you know shared yeah and just kind of it was cuz we would call me like you I don't know if you ever have that word maybe your sisters maybe with your wife and your girls you won't hug them and you pick them up yeah that's totally part of what you want to do and no you can't do that why cuz I'm too heavy you're clearly not you have no idea how strong I am yeah but then you know at one point hearing that story and going oh my gosh like there's this it's it's objectively untrue yes because there are people who are very large yes you are not one of them yes this is this fits right into what we're talking about with agreements so I've been thinking about this thing lately which I haven't fully fleshed out and I want to write by you and see if we can do it together so given the Church's teaching on divine simplicity right God doesn't have attributes right he is mercy he is love right he is his attributes if you want so it occurred to me the other day that if we say like I believe god I just don't believe that he loves me mm-hmm it's almost equivalent with atheism because God is his love for me right or his love so that to believe in God but a God that doesn't love or doesn't forgive it's like it's not the same thing as saying there is no God right but you are denying the existence of God since his essence is that so because of that what I've noticed is when I begin to believe things or make agreements with things this could be another way of detecting things and recognize them as lies or agreements that are in contrary what the Gospels tell me there's unbelief there in God yeah and I have to tell God who he is again and tell him who I am and tell me who I am in Christ to try to restore that Union in a sense you are good I am yours I can trust you so I can pour out my heart to you yeah and even if I don't feel loved right now I still trust that I am I am and I declare it yeah declaring regardless of feeling it's something we talk about a lot that is so essential yeah I am a beloved son of the Father he delights in me these are good things to say yeah you know I mean especially so I remember one of the gifts the Lord has given me that glory is I ever since have come to a certain degree of faith I've always known I could trust him and I mean so so that the again it's not my own I didn't do anything this is when I think of you know the gift of faith like wow this is supernatural because I know that I can not just I believe that he exists but I do believe that I can trust him that he's good ultimately yeah and that even if these situations are I can cannot understand them in any way shape or form I don't know why this is happening like wow Lord you you have spared me from the existing existential atheism essentially of saying I I need to know why in order to know I can trust you it's one of the article maybe maybe the primary grace that he's given me my entire life and I realized hasn't always been there hmm once he was given it was like oh wow yeah that's uh that's something I don't wrestle with because I think it easy say it comes back to this I can declare this because I trust you yes even if I don't feel like it or not yes thinking that it's the things like I don't necessarily feel trusting its but I know who you are yes you have declared that you are good that you love me that you are attentive to me that you're capable that you're working in my life though I might be unaware of it yeah bringing good in my life and I can trust you and in others lives that's hard too because in my own life I can say okay you know that's fine but I love this person over here oh my gosh lord I don't why they having to go through this pain because that's what I bet for me that's worse to see someone I love in pain versus myself in pain because them I want to be out of pain for me I'm like I can handle it is it there's a difference between being honest and raw and real with the Father like David was in the Psalms and there's a difference between making agreements about God so there's one thing to say like where are you lord yeah it's another thing to say which I've said I wish you would work as hard for me as the devil seems to be working for me I wish you father were interested in me as Satanist I remember I was in such a dark place yeah I said that and I meant it not not long after it was the next day I woke up at about 3:00 4:00 in the morning I sat on my bed like what is what is happening and I just started renouncing that but these these are things we assisting we get serious like you might be watching this and thing of what it's the same thing I mean David was honest and you're honest yeah but no because even David dates funny David sounds like a schizoid I mean like once a hummus joys I love the only solid Psalm 88 right that doesn't end hopeful mmm Psalm 88 is the last line as my one companion is darkness I didn't I every one of the other Psalms that our Psalms of lament or Psalms of complaint or Psalms of asking God for help say have there's always a note that says even so I know who you are even so I know you'll come to deliver me but Psalm 88 is the only one that all my friends have left me and one companion is darkness which is one of the reasons why the small tea tradition is that that was the song Jesus was praying overnight and kindnesses dungeon or whatever also because there's parts of the elements of the psalm that correspond with his ordeal and passion but yes it's a fennec but he's also saying here's what I experiencing but here's who I know you are somewhat you talk sorry I'm just checking out this he's saying like God this is what I'm experiencing here's who I know you are verses that what that dark time for you're saying God here's what I'm experiencing here's who you are yes you are not fighting for me my companions have become darkness yeah you have caused my beloved and my friends to shun me my companions have become darkness the end yeah and in the next song I will sing but it is it's so important that we be honest in our prayer yeah what do you think about I got a friend San Guzman runs a Catholic gentleman the two of us are thinking of starting this thing called the Brotherhood of st. James the protomatter okay and here's what we want to do we want to give people very explicit things to pray throughout the day like here is a prayer role for you so in the morning you'll do this at noon you will do this you will at least do this and you will do this this is the bare minimum that you will do yeah if you stop you will be kicked out of the Brotherhood with no exceptions yes what would thank something will work yeah because I go to an Eastern Church and is in a Western Roman Church we have slightly different things on this but it's been really helpful I love it I love waking up lighting the candles where the icons doing my chanting in Psalms and things you know and yet it can be the case that this can just become root right root hey you said America wrote we don't say in Australia like that either that's just my get-out-of-jail-free card every time I mess up a word don't hide yeah but yeah it can become like that so it's like there's this there's this this this tension between I'm just gonna pray from the heart and versus I'm just gonna say these traditional prayers yeah both are clearly good but one without the other can get weird yeah right yeah absolutely I would say that particularly and there's something so I never liked the the night before my ordination to the diac in it it's the the ordination where you promise celibacy and all it I was more concerned about the fact that I'm also promising to pray the Liturgy of the hours five times every day until the day that I die then I was then I was concerned about celibacy she's fine I kind of work that out a little bit you know hi I don't I think in seminary I did that maybe a handful of times all five like now for I'm saying is as of tomorrow until the day I die it's these five times um nice to find the Psalms in like the whole you know salt room whatever so I don't say odious because that's too the wrong word yeah I didn't get a lot out of it yeah but in the years since it's like my go-to I there's a guy I know it says it's my bread and butter and I'm like yeah that's Troy even one's dry that sense of mm-hmm I don't and that's the thing about praying with the Psalms I love is when I don't have the words I don't even know what I'm feeling actually I'm not even feeling anything yeah but here I can open the psalmist I can open this canticle and the Lord is speaking to me and I get to actually speak God's words back to God yeah and I think I stole it from Pope Benedict so I really really so one of the things we do want to pray with our students we have a holy hour every morning as I mentioned is we have the first like say I don't know 25 minutes there in silence and then the second half is we pray a morning prayer all together and one of the ways we do it is will do the psalm and then we'll stop and everyone will have a chance to choose a word or a phrase from that previous Psalm to share out loud because it's an idea of like we can just break through these wrote you know and we can stop and say oh no no God is speaking right now What did he say that actually either spoke to you or you choose to like take from his word and to say it out loud and we do go through the Psalms and canticles like that every single morning where no he's actually active God is you know pure act his word is effective in living therefore if I can read through the Psalms or through the canticle and get nothing that's not a deficit of his part I don't see the ex I'm not listening or I didn't take the time to realize wait a second I might have to dig a little bit like I might have to sift through some things or maybe again it doesn't speak to me but he is speaking to me so I'm gonna take a word and like make that my own now and so that's my attempt to every morning remind our students of we're gonna go through this rope prayer but we need to actively engage your dynamic yeah yeah I feel like that's one of the blessings the charismatic movement reminded us to have is a dynamic relationship with Jesus yes what do you know I just think I remember looking you can finish them yeah well it's just that I think a lot of us don't think we can have that we think that we've been given a text full of prayers that we can say and that the father might be interested in us but not in the sense that matters yeah and so we don't talk with him we don't say like what are you what are you doing yeah what do you want right now like would you would you would you see a spirit into this relationship with my daughter or my son and should I go and speak to them right now you know I'm glad that that's in some circles has been recovered I think he's he recovered more oh absolutely listening in prayer that God wants to be I mean he's an active part of our lives as opposed to we just report at the end of the day here's what happened yeah here's my here's my report I remember the first time might have been the first time I ever saw someone really really like scour God's Word as if like death now is gonna make a difference for today I was at a conference in Arizona and they invited me to sit at the table as they planned the day and so the conferences already planned and here and now is day two and yeah it can join us and I'm like okay I'll suit at the table and I just got ordained and in the plant conferences planned but here's Matt Maher and he's sitting at the table and he's like you know this morning I was praying in the Gospels and Gospels Jesus says this and he flips to it and says the line and it says you know I think I think God wants us to do X for today instead of what we were planning on I think we were to do this other thing and I remember just being like you are listening to the scripture in a way that you're actually willing to change the course of not just your life the course of like the event programming because you believe God is speaking through this and of course there's being tested by the other people in the room and the table and stuff but I just it opened up this whole reality to me I'm like God is speaking I know this I have affirmed this it's not like this should be shocking to me but to see it like lived out I was like man okay well and it's been my experience and as I'm faithful to those promptings of the Spirit they grow stronger and you begin to recognize them almost like the voice of a friend like oh I know right yeah absolutely just as opposed to like that's kind of wild here I just had yeah like yeah maybe it was verses I don't know this is what it sounds like yeah when God speaks you just recognize yeah the voice yeah and to be okay with being wrong yeah and to be okay with our eyes oh my gosh that's the thing it's like how do I know you people ask all the time how do I know if this is from God or not first does it contradict the Word of God Ecklie you can test it against like you should really leave my wife up with my secretary to sense you know no no he'll let mean he's let me know he's already let you know it you know shut up yeah but the another part of it is after that after it passes all those tests of it's contrary to the church or the scripture is you will you will not know if God wants you to walk up to that person and say that word unless you walk up to that person and say that word mm-hmm there's no way of knowing unless you act on it if you'll feel something to it like even if even if you're wrong or it's embarrassing at it's okay you just be faithful you know if you believe the Lord is speaking there should be faithful to the Lord even if you're wrong honestly that's that's even like the sense of you can also learn in that you can learn how to ask that's all I supposed to just get the facts okay that I need to say this as opposed to okay this might be weird I just you came up in prayer the other day and I thought this was I mean anything - and giving them at the is that does that mean anything to you is a really important thing I think you know I don't know although sometimes I've had the experience of people who come up to me and say that and I immediately get weirded out yeah that's probably says more about me than then maybe I just get the sense like I got people to do this I did you're under serious spiritual attack and I looked I saw the pain in your face this is my America yes it and I'm like it I was not in pain and yeah don't think I'm seriously under attack unless I'm so under attack that I'm not deluded and realize the Habs but but father Gregory pine said that when someone does that to him and it doesn't resonate he's like okay well maybe the father has put this on your heart for a reason so please pray for me yeah is that exactly if I never know what does this mean I say well noted and God speaks in clarity so if I don't know what that means then I'll note it yeah if it comes back up again later on yeah great yeah that's it but but how would I ever know if that's actually from the Lord unless I step out if I step out in some way and then like you said step not I don't have to leak like there's that everyone thinks like all or nothing like yeah there are some things that are all or nothing marriage you know um but there are some things that are like no you go and test that out before you yeah sell everything and what's that about being a priest today what's it like walking through an airport with a Roman collar I sometimes think that in some places it might be like wearing a mega hat yeah yeah self-conscious if I'm super self-conscious tell us about it yeah so here's another not hide thing place is super self-conscious like I I my personality is one that I like to blend in like I don't I remember so large-ish family eight of us total and loud family so the thing I remember thinking I hate large families I hate my own large family not because they didn't like all the rest of us but because we're so loud everywhere we went people saw just big group of people and someone's always having a problem you know exactly and it's like oh my gosh I hate this so much not because of them because of me this I my preference is not to be noticed that's just everywhere I go I want to not be noticed and so then it becomes a little bit uncomfortable to have everyone really really clear yeah really clearly and also not just looking at you but looking and making an assessment that you cannot control yeah and so it could be somebody can be positive I guess you know and other times it was just really nice when people are like oh good to see if father/son like that yeah like oh thanks good to see you too but other than that it's it's uh I was just getting it well I even think of just getting frustrated at the airport and then realizing wow Majan if I stood out like I said yeah that's okay so much like come on you know you get your sad or flustered and you're like just the other day I was trying to get to a conference and the plane was delayed and I'm like running through the airport I'm like I don't want to it might be the police representing them for you know priest of the church or you know I remember getting to a gate once this is a couple years ago and I had run through the airport again it not made it I suppose last weekend made it and some sweating and the lady didn't even look up you know I'm like I miss my flight so okay and we she looked up and said okay yeah and then went back down and I'm like I that plane is I need you to take this seriously but inside I'm like okay I'm so anxious but right now and kind of frustrated but I'm representing the church representing the Lord how do I not come across as being so I don't like that very much but it's I didn't what's been the worst and kind of best experiences you've had in public well some of the worst happened one of the worst things happen right away because the day I was heard and it I heard this in a video on the Pennsylvania scandal thing broke and I this kind of took me back to like gosh I want to go out like this yeah now when I was her dance I was her name and o2 was when I was being a deacon and that's when in the United States the first big wave of scandals like Boston Marathon I remember got heard and went to my family had this German restaurant that we like to go to in the Twin Cities st. Paul Minneapolis and we had a room kind of reserved and just family and friends super exciting and fun and they were getting up and going to the restroom and walking by a group of guys who are not too much a little younger than me at the time and this guy was like ha ha baluster and I'm like oh okay that's what this is gonna be because the first time I law and clerics Nilus that's what this that's what life is like now huh and so that that kind of marked a little bit in there and it's always have that sense of like I wonder what people are thinking particularly as it relates to that I don't know if anything got worse than that I know other people have other scenarios experiences but there's some I mean a lot of positive things - it's that's the that's the yeah it really is something you offer up but yeah technically you wouldn't be sinning if you just chose to come in your slacks right something yeah but this is something you consciously choose and my friend father Chris Prakash go from up in Canada said that for him he thought and this is just how he phrased it if this is what I have to offer up in reparation for what some like young boys have had to watch out for being abused by priests like this is something I can do yeah I just thought holy smokes yeah that that occurred to me that last year of seminary as well I remember it was one of them maybe top five moments of grace or at least it was a high moment of grace where Mir I was this because I was frustrated and I was in in prayer like god I just do not like this I did that I didn't do anything wrong and all this kind of stuff and and that I heard uh the word had come back that said well these people didn't do these kids didn't do anything wrong either and they have to carry this every day of their lives and so it's kind of one of that same similar kind of thing are you a fan of John Mulaney yeah yes sorry good god no well he's obviously hilarious yes but whenever he talks of Catholicism I kind of like yeah this is exactly how Catholicism is viewed in the United States Catholicism is a joke if you're a Catholic and serious about your Catholic faith you're both a bigot and a joke the church is bleeding in huge numbers I saw stats recently from 2000 and I think it was 13 - now the decline in baptisms those who longer affiliate with the church it's in the tens of thousands sometimes more and you just think yeah this is that with what the bloody hell is happening because it feels like and this is something I've written the Psalms today I think it was around like Psalm 9 or something it said something like when the ground is or when the foundation is removed how will the righteous remain or something to that effect and it was like okay we live in a society that's incredibly chaotic we're being told that men are women and women can be men and maybe they can swap during the day and that and that sodomy is virtuous and we all have to celebrate it and marriage is nothing anymore and it's like the foundations within culture if this is what this is or society have been just eroded at and it felt like 15 years ago as Catholics many of us were like okay society can be crumbling and maybe my parish race to the moon bag but Pope Benedict has my back yeah John Paul the second look to Rome to clarify the confusion of my parish if there is that but either way the church is on my side it's the Bears the torch I know you know where I'm going I'm going on because I just feel so passionate about this but it feels like the many of us we now look at the church and it's in chaos - yeah and so outside is chaos inside is chaos and I get the sense that people are now trying to bring in to compensate for what no longer makes sense of the world they bring in extra things so it's super passionate about Donald Trump one way or the other or black lives matter or feminism or something it's like we're bringing in things to help us make sense of what's out there again because just the Catholic thing isn't doing it anymore and I suspect that over the next five years there's gonna be many people you and I know by name who are in the Catholic scene right now who have left who absolutely publicly leave the Catholic Church yeah what the bloody hell do we do yeah well I think it just to go back to the even the initial question about John Mulaney whenever I see him I just might cos he's hilarious he's hilarious he comes to my Catholic family that I think believe and here is he's a normal example of the number one example of here's the kind of guy that I was just like what what happened what what I would we would I do wrong but what we do wrong like in that sense of you were a picture of the people who are leaving the church and I've left the church and have probably had a lot of really good experiences with the church because at least I'm thinking that your family's solid and I think that other kind of elements are solid but what went wrong where Christ wasn't proclaimed into your life or it was just foolishness or it didn't happen even have any space in your life or whatever the thing is like I just want to know in some ways I just want to know like what could we do but what could we do it doesn't involve what you're describing here which is like okay so it's the church and and so CS Lewis hadn't even talked about this back in I know the beginning of the last century where he was saying that what the England Anglican Church had done it in England was it was gonna be okay so it's a Christianity and so Christianity and immigration Christianity and the death penalty Christianity and whatever the thing is and he's like no he can't be that where it touches yes it influences that thing but that thing can't influence Christianity like it can't be the one way it has to be the other which is so it's our following the Lord influences how we view immigration our following the lord influences how we view sexuality our mood and so it but it's not Christianity and because that's your brand now your brand is in the church and whatever the thing is and so they have that and that's a pure form but I what I mean is the authentic approach that maybe off I can be off I made it done it done it grab it trail keep going and that because I would say that so what is gonna be the heart I like you said 15 years ago culture can be turning the tide now a the crazy thing is that the tide of the culture turned in the last seven years in a way that unimaginable like you ruined ten years and think no no no there's no we're fine we're fine and then all the sudden in the space of not long at all 2012 was a big year and then the next couple years were just like flipped where the culture now identifies the church as again the the bigoted homophobic hypocritical all the like wait wait really in the space of yeah and then you started looking at politics and think wait a second what one politician says today and it's described as racist and bigoted and xenophobic whatever is literally what your favorite politician said four years four years ago okay so what happens we're so fractured so you said culture but then all of a sudden you look at the church and it can be like hey what is gonna be the next either local scandal or to what degree can I trust my bishop to what degree can I trust the Holy Father to what jury can I trust the cure whatever the thing is and I think in those elements it comes down to if we understand history one of the things we recognize is this is not new not to say it doesn't matter but to say these are the times in which God has always raised up Saints and they weren't waiting for permission to be Saints they weren't waiting for permission they weren't waiting for a perfect Pope to become the followers of Christ they weren't waiting for their Bishop to get on board and to stand up and talk about X or for them to say Lord I'm fully yours he's goes back to where we talked about like the Word of God continues to speak to us and the Holy Spirit to be able to say okay spirit lead me today so one of the things is yes there are people who need to stand up and need to identify and like bring into the light whatever has been corrupted and and infested in the church yes if I'm not that person cuz I don't know I mean that's the thing that so many people they think oh you're on YouTube you must know stuff about there's I don't know anything about you that when the in Sylvania scandal bra last year remember I was saying - like you must have got to say something because I've known about all that was happening with McCarrick yeah yeah and like I I'm from Duluth Minnesota like we have a great Bishop and you know if you didn't know we're very dysfunctional it's so like world talking to each other necessarily across diocese and like again my experience in seminary was I never was exposed to any like you had a good experience in statics know what yeah I mean there was some like well that guy is a crazy teacher but more like he just needs more be more faithful or more Orthodox to the church not there's a bunch of evil happening it was more along the lines of okay that class is early week you have to do some supplemental reading in order to get you know the education but the formation seemed solid and whatever anyways so like okay that's not it's your sphere of control versus fear of concern so I'm very concerned with the health of the church I'm very concerned with it with the wanting the church to be back not back but back to what back to only one of the 12 betraying Jesus yeah but the sense of like you were fired yes absolutely so we pray for the everyday when we have a person the faithful let I get the makeup is like the first Paris for the church and I always pray that the Holy Spirit would be used to purify the church from the inside out from the top to the bottom the whole thing but it's kind of like the OJ Simpson trial I don't remember this bad watched the eight pot series on Netflix I think which om Islam which was excellent I remember when it was when it was going on I don't know if I use this example somewhere else but people would always ask what do you think we think he was guilty and like I don't know no no you have to have an opinion it's wrong I think I do I do I do I have not watched all the courtroom stuff I see the headline here and the headline here I don't have enough information to have an opinion this is something you never hear people say yeah and this they don't have enough information to have an opinion and so when it comes to a lot of these things like we think that vegan or what it was talking about this or that like well I know what I've read I know it's other people have said I also know that I don't know enough so what do and that's my serious concern the whole church the health of Christendom Christianity the whole my sphere of control is can I choose the Lord today fully well I think I can at least I mean more than I did yesterday or whatever the thing is and so I think that I don't know there something's no element there is not trying to be a cop-out yeah I was trying to say like I don't know if this if there's something about kind of mining your own killing your own field yeah that's not stained you're laying in the sense of like it it's your self speed driving over here and helping out but in the sense of if I stay in Minnesota in Duluth Minnesota cuz my bishop has asked me that is my assignment that's the field that he's given me to cultivate yeah I don't know I don't maybe way off I just this is good i I've been thinking a lot lately about how many people are criticizing people in the church today I think its first Corinthians is it where pulse is at first Corinthians where Paul says some of you say I am with Paul Barnabas and it's just like that's what we're doing today like I am with Voris I am with Bishop Baron I am with Taylor Marshall is Christ divided and yet this is what we're doing it's like where we used to boast about being the one church while Protestantism had all of its fragmentations and I mean goodness gracious maybe there is a unity there but there is so much fragmentation among us and I'm seeing I don't know if this is the whole picture certainly it isn't but it's like we're saying since X isn't the solution to everything he therefore isn't the solution to anything right yeah so since life team or since Bishop Baron or since Michael Voris you know isn't the solution to what's going on therefore they're not the solution to anything right do you see what I'm saying yeah absolutely like why can't life team just be interested in like helping teens be holy yeah and they can fail like you fail yeah critic and how I fail but that we can encourage each other in the Lord yeah like it's not my role I don't feel cool to go on camera every day and denounce certain prelate for doing certain things I think I'm glad someone's doing it though even if maybe they fall into errors and excesses yeah you know yeah I'm not called to be a priest I'm glad you are you know you're not called to run a conversation show maybe yeah maybe you are better probably glad that I am Jesse yeah yeah absolutely hey I just want to pause this amazing conversation I'm having with father Mike Schmidt's just for one moment to tell you about something really exciting at the beginning of this interview we were talking about Exodus 90 which is an ascetical program for men and I know some of you men out there watched it and you had that little inkling at the bottom of your heart you're like man maybe like maybe I should do this alright here's what I want you to do go to Exodus 19 comm slash Matt Fred that's Exodus nine zero the numbers nine zero comm slash Matt Fred the reason you have to go to the slash Matt fred thing is that's my landing page for all of the men who want to join this Christmas exodus 90 so it starts at the end of September and it ends Christmas Day so you can join with literally thousands of men around the world who are going to undergo this 90-day challenge if you want to grow in their relationship with Christ so you get to do it as a brotherhood if you go to exodus nine zero comm slash Matt Fred however you're gonna get exclusive videos from me that you wouldn't be getting otherwise about how to do this in a way that's gonna be really helpful so again exodus nine zero comm slash Matt Fred even if you're not super set on doing it you just want a bit more information go to exodus nine zero comm slash Matt Fred right now check it out I have a story about Bishop Robert Barron the hotel because he's getting a lot of flack right now what for what Oh Taylor Marshall and Timothy Gordon going after him for his dare we hope that all should be saved and it's a little unclear as to what he means him and I haven't pursued this much I know people get pretty excited headed on the internet yeah I'm not saying they're wrong - I'm just yeah pointing out a fact but I was at the Flannery O'Connor's childhood home yesterday very loud that was great yes good gopher ladies not vodka ladies and gentlemen that is sparkling water so yes this is where I'm wearing flannel shirt right now love Flannery Organa and anyway so I was there yesterday and the lady was giving me a tour and she was nice enough you know but you got the sense that she most certainly was not a Catholic okay yeah and had to talk about Catholicism because it played a large role in finery O'Connor's life yeah and I got the sense that sometimes she would mention it it was little disparaging you know and so whatever we went through the entire tour and then at the end I looked up on the wall and they have these Flannery O'Connor fans that you wave yourself with and it's a face it's a cardboard cutout of Flannery O'Connor's face and on the board it says a good fan is hard to find based on her story a good man is hard to find and I said oh that's funny and she said yes she said have you heard a bishop Robert Barron like yes so I had a segue yes and she said that was his pun he came up with that oh oh wow and I'm like well I you know I I'm I know Bishop Robert Barron he's been on the show and sort of thing and so I am on pints with Aquinas and so I said oh that's good I'll tell him you know through thought I don't have his number but I told Brandon who knows him I'll tell him to think think be sure over there but I got to talking to her and she had no reason to sing the praises of Bishop Robert Barron and one she's not clearly a faithful Catholic she's clearly not a faithful Catholic and - she doesn't care to impress me she doesn't know my story she doesn't know I'm a faithful Catholic right but she said that he came in because they were doing this documentary for Flannery O'Connor and he stood up there and you know he was getting ready and he was about to do his monologue and she was waiting for this to be some highfalutin thing yeah and then he starts talking to Flannery O'Connor and as he's talking about her work is talking about the Coen brothers and Fargo and she just said she was mesmerised and she said something to the effect of she saw a sign of Catholicism or a richness to it that she doesn't often see and you could tell that the woman was captivated and I thought this is what Bishop Robert Barron does really know so if we want to criticize him well can we also admit that he's really good it's doing certain yeah oh I think they've said there's a because it's a good question I mean and there we hope what's his name not both of them yes that's a zit Bobbi's are to ask the question that's called doing theology I really like Ralph Martin because he has a kiss a really great book about like no you know no no we may not we may yeah yeah reason teaching for that yeah exactly and you can you know just wonder but there's a sense of like okay in the mystery of God now that there's unresolved mystery capital a mystery yes there's things that we don't ultimately know and I think that one of the pieces that we lose when we say dare we hope all men be saved is the evangelistic initiative I think that sense of like you know there's a there's a need yeah I mean I think of one of my favorite office of readings is from st. Francis Xavier here's my patron saint my confirmation saying he's writing back from India and Ritu writes about all the people in India who are coming to faith he's like the he would lose his voice because he baptized so many people in the course of a day that he would lose his voice was saying in the name of the Father Son Holy Spirit like a baptism and and he's writing back and saying I wish I could run through the hallways of the universities in Europe running up and down like a madman saying do you have any idea how many souls are going to hell just because of you because you're not we have more learning than love that the that you are staying here in Europe rather than coming to India there are so many people who would they would love to become Catholic but they're not because you're not willing to give your life and you're like okay that evangelistic not just kind of like excitement but desperation that sense of he doesn't say how many people are being lost kind of this you know how many people are not knowing who Jesus is because of you he says how many people are going to hell because of you and of course in divine judgment I the Lord will never unjust Lee judge any of us who didn't have whatever but that seems to be a pretty solid endorsement for there is a desperate need to proclaim the Gospel because the net it's a matter of eternity that's right and yet we don't believe in hell in order to put a great fire under our Evangelization thank you till a terror like yeah like heavens the carrot and hell's the stick that kind of gives it a move not just that but that okay we need to evangelize how do we get serious about it well what if we really believed yeah oh well I guess I would get a six on it go act like that even though he'll probably doesn't exist right I think the reason we believe in Hell is because Jesus spoke more about it than anybody else yeah yeah that sense of like a balance and so I think Ralph Martin in his book I camera within title of the book I only one think I was the fulfillment of all desires it so did yeah you're thinking of the one where he talks with the main premise is the few the way is hard and arrow yeah to perdition and we've flipped that around yes ed the way to life is wider is wide but the yeah so in that going back to people who are commentators can you can we acknowledge the the gift that people are bringing to the church without saying I don't know I don't think that Bishop Baron is a slouch in any way shape or form and I don't think he's a lackey in any way shape or form I don't think that he is like you and I would never describe him as Catholic light I'd say that he's Catholic he's a Catholic was a Catholic priest is it other ways who's now a Catholic bishop who uses his platform to evangelize will many be saved he's always calm yeah is that the one that's the one yeah well many of you say for those at home but yes to your point sorry but no I just think that there is a UH I don't know there's this of people like this I use I feel like find another enemy yeah that's a good way there's a lot out there yeah you know but no but okay but then what they're saying though is it would be worse to have a bishop teaching heresy than to have someone outside the church yeah so then so in that sense I see the urgency too and I also see maybe they perceive him or someone could we see this as being the way in the which the body is helping itself what I mean by that is if I have someone criticized me who's like in the church and says well father Mike actually you said this incorrectly or here's where you're wrong they're not my enemy they're helping me so if there's an element where someone's criticizing or critiquing this person they're not their enemy they're helping that person yeah so if I am wrong then that's why I'm wrong and if you will refuse to saying Bishop parents doing this but if you will refuse to engage with your critic right and yet you are engaging in this speech in a public platform it seems to me they have a right to correct your public yeah or at least ask for clarification or whatever yeah no and if you won't respond that's my view when they find out if I start saying stuff here like here's a good example of someone who seems to be father James Martin yeah it seems very clearly to be teaching things contrary to the faith right saying that two people in the same sex relationship ought to be had a kiss at the sign of peace and saying I'm no theologian but you know something is only binding upon the faithful if we as the church accept it and so therefore homosexuality might just sort of be like taking money at interest and equating it with things in Exodus right confusing the mosaic and the moral law right you don't need to be a bloody theologian to figure that out you just have to be able to go through seminary or if you haven't figured out yet to be criticized once about it ought to be enough okay so you're very nice and you're very good at speaking the truth and having people like you most people aren't good at that listening some people are good at how did you like them but they're speaking falsities or they speak the truth but people hate them mm-hmm you know so I don't want to lead you into a place where you don't want to talk about people that you don't want to you know because you know but but at what point is it no longer acceptable for us not to call out people by name yeah especially those of us who have some modest platform if they are leading the church into grave sin yeah no I I think that there's if there is if that does happen I need to have proof and I need to be able to point to a specific thing so say take any one of the people that has been named if I say well I'm a critic critic of a baron I'm a critic of my Morris I'm a critic of dr. Marshall or of father of Martin in what sense he's right I'm not I would not critique Bishop Barron's approach of like philosophy and culture to engage culture in a real clear way yes I wouldn't critique father Martin's desire to build bridges with a community that feels alienated and isolated from the Catholic Church like super good like this so if I'm gonna critique it I have to say when he said this though this isn't get ugly new nuanced doesn't go viral right like new right we like sledgehammer it's problematic or in error so for example for someone to say God made someone a certain way that is error yes that's not but yeah yeah I'm gonna read something to you yeah okay here's a direct quote from father James Martin and I bring this up because you wrote a book called I believe it may not need for love sorry made it made for love yeah what's the subtitle Catholic Church new same-sex attraction okay so it has to do with homosexuality so for that reason I want you to comment on this so this is a direct quote from him all these Bible passages people throw at you Leviticus Deuteronomy and even the stuff in the New Testament where Paul talks about it once or twice has to be understood in their historical context the Bible is written in a particular time it's the inspired Word of God but it is written certainly in a particular time and in a particular historical context certainly in Old Testament times they didn't understand the phenomena of homosexuality and bisexuality I would say as we do today I'd also like to say that there's a lot of other stuff in Leviticus that we sort of understand in its historical context like what kind of slaves can we have whether or not we can wear certain kinds of clothes whether or not our crops can be next to one another we don't look at those passages in a historical way so why should we look at passages of homosexuality that way I'd also like to say that in his three-year public ministry Jesus says nothing about the topic alright so they go criticized that for me yeah well I mean it's such an interesting it's there's a way of speaking you can you can decline to criticize evaluate what's you into a corner it's okay the there's a way of speaking that so when I was in college all my professors talk like that where it was kind of this sense of I'm gonna begin by opening up what we know to be true in the sense of it's important to read the Bible in this historical context yep okay absolutely and then opening it up further to saying therefore it means whatever I want it to mean or yeah that's essentially essentially that or it doesn't mean what I don't want it to mean and making kind of a not just an emotional appeal but this kind of this sense of like because X therefore Y where's like well that's not that's not a one-to-one kind of a situation for example like the fabrics thing you can't mix fabrics in the Book of Leviticus therefore you also not and no you can therefore it's just the same thing it's all the same verses actually the historical context which which would be when it came to those kind of declarations in Leviticus regarding yeah your hair not being than your temples not being cut or not mixing certain fabrics or not eating shellfish these kind of things those were all in the in the sections of Leviticus that had to deal with how the community itself lived when it came to the teachings on homosexuality it had to deal with all people's is there so interesting fascinating when you actually get to the context it's like let's actually take a deep dive you said you need to be historical I certainly contextualize let's do it let's do it in that sense what you have is some rules that were specific to the Jewish people at the time in the Covenant these other declarations have to do with all peoples even those people amongst whom the Jews are living and so it's like well that's a big difference and that's what you're pointing to so actually if we do this in deep dive you have that the next step would be to try to address they didn't understand the cultural context and understand this like we do again let's look at the cultural context there has always been homosexuality or homosexual acts in especially in those ancient cultures it was by and large accepted and not seen as any big deal greco-roman culture Socrates the writings of Plato you see it right and so you since you say ok so they lived in an even more kind of open / tolerant culture than we might have been up until the last decade so your critique falls flat there as well now now extrapolate that to again that sense of but in the context of a loving monogamous situation everything changes and that doesn't hold water either because Romans 1 doesn't talk in any way shape or form about whether two men are laying with each other two women laying with each other in a monogamous loving relationship you know it has to do with what is the what is the nature of sex what's it oriented towards and what is the opposite of that I know it says misuse of that and then finally there's the argument from silence in other words right oh yeah exactly said to be important based on word count right yeah and Jesus didn't say any capital punishment was alive and well but a bunch in Jesus's day he doesn't say anything about capital punishment needs to be eradicated slavery was present Jesus didn't say anything about slavery being eradicated so does that mean they're cycling right abortion contraception that mean he's endorsing those things because he didn't speak directly against them and necessarily yes and it's a lot of times when someone doesn't speak against something in the scriptures is because it's like what we all know yeah that's not the case yes it's like that's not even a point of contention yeah we've got we all agree if we live in the covenant then here's what we know sex is for we know what the marriage or relationships are oriented towards so we don't have to fight well this does an excellent answer then the question I still want to figure out is when we see people confusing the faithful because like for example Bishop Baron has been criticized on dare we hope his position and I haven't read it but I understand on his website he has a very lengthy response to the many phone calls we don't forget daily on this issue yeah okay I haven't read it maybe it set a satisfactory maybe it's not okay yeah but it seems to me that if you're being criticized on things like homosexual acts being disordered or not you kind of have a bloody moral obligation to set the record straight like I speak a lot on the issue of pornography right suppose somebody heard me say don't beat yourself up when you should when you fall to pornography or God loves you even in your sin these are things I've said now if there was a lot of criticism around that and people said you're saying that pornography isn't a sin you better believe that I would clarify that up quickstart yeah and so in one sense I haven't read all of what father James Martin has had to say in response to this so I don't want to pretend to give him the benefit of the doubt you know maybe he has but I suspect given how much criticism I'm seeing online and his response to certain things and what he continues to say is he's not taking this very seriously or at least hasn't cleared the issue of what the church does and has always taught and will continue to teach so at what point do we as Catholics point people out by name because I totally respect the stick to your lanes stick to your field be faithful in to what you're being called but if there's a priest who's got a public platform and he's saying things that'll leading people into at best confusion and at worst serious sin when do we start pointing him to have him out well that's ok it's a good question and I would say cold months ago a couple years ago maybe at this point and that's when we start doing that I think it's probably it's time if it hasn't happened already okay and I think that I really do think that there's a there's a level in which so you know script was Jesus a brother goes to brother first and then you know et cetera et cetera I've never encountered father Martin ever in my life and I don't know if you would want to I mean BAP she seems like a decent guy that they know seems so what point I think I'd enjoy having a cup of coffee right yeah I read his book general guide almost everything loved it thought great I was like this is awesome this is but did not don't appreciate again me to sense the okay I want to affirm all of the things we can affirm which would be the fact that you're striving to build bridges the fact that you're striving to reach out to people who again who are isolated and feel alienated from the Catholic Church is super good at the same time you have to show your hand and what I mean by showing your hand is even if you're gonna so for example in my ministry on college campus with youth with youth with anybody I want to also be doing the same thing I want to be meeting with all the students that possibly can who identify as lesbian or gay or anything at some point though I'm gonna have to say okay here's what the church teaching is on this topic alright in this in this area in your life that's real and present to your life here is what the church is calling you to so Christ is calling you to and I'm gonna make it very very clear to you in love that this is this is the cards I'm holding now at the same time you're gonna experience some cognitive dissonance because what you're gonna experience is you're gonna say wait a second father Mike really seems to care about me it really seems to love me it really seems to be wanting to be in my life he's not shunning he's not excluding me but it's also he's saying that well this is wrong but I've always associated someone who says this is wrong as someone who hates me yes or somebody says this is wrong as someone who is disgusted by me and so I want them to experience the cognitive dissonance but in order that for that to happen I have to say and I support not to support what the Church teaches I know and believe this to be true and it's gonna be helpful for you to hear that from me as well from someone who actually has demonstrated that they care about you now I can understand that if maybe on a certain level father arm says I want to hold those cards is publicly is close to my vest as long as I possibly can because privately in my ministry and this could be the case that we don't know all the details it be privately in his ministry people come to him because they trust him because they see him saying kind and gentle you know what these kind of things open things and then when he's dealing with him he says okay one on one now I feel more comfortable I can tell you here's the next part you need to repent of whatever sin is in your life this or that or whatever it is but any repent of all those that could be is mo at some point though when people are getting confused by this you'd say you need to say okay I can't play those cards anymore because what my ministry in private is now become fully public does that make sense it does you're very kind to have that interpretation could be possible it could be possible if it's not then it has that was another example that's a good thing I mean it's a good thing that you did that I think to expect the best of a brother priest well that's the thing is like if if it were given to simply cynicism and criticism yeah then um it's like a Thomas Aquinas when the old story of people saying look the pigs are flying outside the window and he would keep rushing to see and they see and and he eventually said I would rather believe that pigs are flying but my brother then my brother is a liar yeah and something similar there to like I would rather believe the best about my brother priest or a friend and so in there's good because I know in my life that there's an element where Sam in a relationship or like you know in ministry with here's a man who experienced a same-sex attraction and he could say like well yeah but fellow Mike doesn't bring this up every time we talk right yeah exactly because hey this is not I mean it's a significant issue and it's also reality in your life yeah but I've already Clara we've already had that cause if you don't want to go back to that topic yes I don't have to bring it up every time we three meet and I think there's something about that that's deku someone could say I've already spoken on this you know what I believe the problem with father Martin is he hasn't spoken on that part he hasn't spoken on the part of it is important and necessary for salvation for every person who finds himself in sin to repent of that sin all of us and that's one of the things like you know we both have when we talk about this particular issue or any issue it's this is one among many things that a person can hand themselves over to going back to the beginning of our conversation about like vanity and crossfitter or whatever the thing is like I could hand myself over to that scent I would need to repent of that as well and that sense of being able to say I don't know there's there's a there's a there's a need and I think it's probably coming more and more apparent that this brother it is absolutely necessary not just for the people who are listening to him but free even for his own soul to make it very clear very soon that it's that's good that that there are some things that are evil yeah and this is one of those things that falls underneath the category oh yeah I have imagined people have a lot more respect like in the in the cognitive dissidence you spoke about when you reveal the cards yeah I can see that like I could see someone being very hurt by that and wondering why you're treating them so kindly when they've only associated people being against homosexual acts as being mean and awful humans you know but I can also see like the tremendous amount of trust like if I experienced extraction and I came to you and you counseled me and you know you welcomed me and you didn't make fun of me like I feared you might and then you reveal the cuts I would be like okay I can trust you whereas I feel like if somebody else was only saying the thing I want to hear but I got the sense he was never saying the full thing yeah I'd be like well I don't that's a good point can't trust yes it's not a good way to play your cards there's not a good way to even do me the street with someone yeah it's kind of bait and switch yeah that case yeah cuz I have having students who come and they're like I just want to know lay down here for me what do you guys believe about this or what do you believe about this and like okay in this one conversation that we get I'm going to go through the thing but I'm not gonna say well we're gonna look here at Leviticus 18 and we're a little over here Romans chapter 1 what I want to do is say okay tell me about yourself how is it going yes and just that how's it going you know I'm saying I think taking a holistic interest in the person coming to you not dealing with them as a problem or a problem they have you know external to who they as a human well that's it yeah and that's called doing I mean that's evangelizing right yes to Friendship every person is called yeah exact people don't send me like how can I help my friend and struggles with porn and you say I say we'll take a holistic interest in their life like what books do they like what Netflix shows are they watching what are they doing next summer well they afraid of like you ought to be interested in them not know how you can fix this part of them yeah and that in the long run will actually be more effective because they'll trust that you love them and what they're good and I wonder if that's part of what he's trying to get at when he says things like God made you this way and there's that because that's so that's so distorted and it's so destructive just tell us why explain why basically undercuts one of the foundational doctrines of Christianity which is original sin and their recognition that while we're made good we also have the ridges original wound there's there is this tendency that not everything that I want is the right thing not everything just because I experienced in a drive desire an attraction to something doesn't mean that God wants that for me and so like nobody this is deep-seated this is this is ingrained in me this is I've never known not this therefore God in His perfect will made me and this made me this particular way it's like wait so that means that sin means nothing sin is is any sense right because you I'm tempted to look at porn name and made any sense that the distill mhm yeah I have an inclination to chill my anger like yeah I've always been I have always had a short Irish temper for exactly it's Who I am and that sense of saying um that ultimately you move from which is a positive of acceptance which is okay knowledge about myself I've always struggled with hiding let's go back to the another topic I go I struggled with hiding but I but that's acceptance okay well my to do with that like in ignite to turn to the Lord to into the church to say what what do I do with this turn to the wisdom of the people around me and wisdom of the Ancients to say okay when I'm when I experience this thing what is a wise way forward versus I accept this and now accepting it means that I act on it and that's completely different and no one I mean when I say it's so destructive is this they just got made me with weight cuz I'm billion god be because then now I need to find some I don't need to find I have justification for anything I act on yeah as opposed to I acknowledges than myself and now I bring it to the Lord yeah getting not as a false self but this is really what's inside me one is a way that tries to twist what I find as shame into an app now what I celebrated myself and the other is here's what I find a shame I'm gonna invite the Lord into it to do something with it what are the weather whatever that is to hold me in the midst of it so that I recognize that I'm not identified with my shame because think about the move from shame to pride is I still identified with it like that's still me yeah what I saw is my greatest shame it's now my greatest pride as opposed to this isn't defined me this could be a part of my experience as part of my reality but it doesn't give me my identity and this is the big thing I in the book I was trying to talk about this it's like the difference between experience and identity okay so what experience in our life would you ever advocate someone to say you had this experience therefore that is you there's no experience that we'd ever like you know I'm a man I'm an egg I'm angry therefore I'm an angry person like well no you wouldn't say do that I smoked her alright house smells afraid yeah exactly I think that one of the more profound examples I think at least if someone who's been abused mmm that's a it's a big thing that affects one's whole life I can see effects how I look at myself how I see other people how I say God but you wouldn't say yeah that's who you are someone abused you you are and you are a victim and now that's your activist identity because you've never known any relationship that wasn't ain't advice you've never known any prayer that was untainted by this you never known anything that wasn't affected by this you would never encourage someone to use that experience as their identity the response though is these examples you've brought up are all negative experience hopelessness oh sorry homelessness smoking being abused and what they'll say is your belief that homosexual acts are disordered just comes from your Christian upbringing which is based on a false puritanical religion anyway what you don't understand father Mike is that acting this way is actually a beautiful thing I'm acting out of a good part of me the truest part of me it's not a response to a trauma I've received rather it's when I began engaging in who I truly am when I came out and told people that this is how I've always been and entered into a loving gay relationship that I that I found a freedom that I've never had before and that's what you're telling me is wrong and so to equate that with these negative experiences is the problem you have not yet what I have that makes sense and I would say two things to that one is there's a difference between relief and freedom so yeah if I spent my a lot of part of a large part of my life living under the the shame of secrecy living under the shame of like I don't want someone to find this find this out I just I'm dealing with this or I'm wrestling with it privately or yeah I'm feeling the weight and then I could to this place where I've come out and I'm met with welcome I met with the community I met with someone who cares about me and knows this about me because I mean so many people's stories are they just can't find this out about me if they just end up the people who claim to let me found this out they wouldn't love me anymore and then someone comes out and they find welcome and they find it people do love them that's a relief I'm not living under this shadow under this secret anymore but relief is not the same thing as freedom and relief is not the same thing is actual true peace it feels like peace and it can feel like some freedom to a certain degree but I would I would wonder I would just ask the question is it real now freedom or is it just the fact that you're no longer living in shame which is not something that the Lord or the church was asking you to do in the first place so to play devil's advocate the the response might be your psychologizing you were telling me that my experience of freedom is relief but you don't know me yeah and it's also kind of condescending to think that I'm not sophisticated enough to know the difference they could say yes I agree with you that there was a sense of relief and coming out and finding a supportive community and now that that relief has passed I have entered into a deeper freedom than ever and that's a good point and I would acknowledge that like again I wouldn't want it that's one of the things when people say Oh criticize me if I believe someone who says that I've always felt this way um again I believe that no no no no came from something else I'm like no I can only trust their experience if someone reports to me here's what they have experienced then like yeah I'm not gonna argue with with that mic I say no no no what this comes from your father comes from whatever so you're absolutely right I wouldn't argue with that but I like what you said if you're counseling someone given the fact that you're coming from the premise that this this behavior is wrong yeah then I like what you said I can at least ask the question well yeah you're not telling them that you're trying to make there's a distinction it it would be like if tomorrow I came this is very this is perhaps dis analogous to maybe to dis analogous to be helpful but suppose I've been having doubts for of Christianity for awhile and I've got this bloody show thing and Aquinas stuff and now I'm like I'm I don't think God exists and I'm gonna come out there would be a community online that can really be thrilled if I would do this and would welcome me and would praise me and I would want to kind of come up alongside them and hear what they're saying to offset the disapproving voices so yeah there's that sense of relief I would get then but it wouldn't mean freedom also would mean that um this battle that you've been engaged in there's a release is early exactly there's no I'm no longer fighting this thing just sort of relief yeah relief and so yeah lay down my arms and I've laid it down on this one side yep as opposed to okay I have to keep going it's like someone whose would say again it's a negative example but I even really having a tough time of my marriage and the family duties and kids at home and stuff and this other person has been very very attractive to me and just you know what would I do if I could get fully a lot free and I have never felt this way with that with my my current wife I'm not with my kids and I feel like has to be someone else but now I don't have to be someone else with her I get to be really who I really am you say okay there's a certain feeling of freedom the certain feeling of release relief because why because I've given in to something that I was battling with that I will anyway go on so this is excellent yeah and then the question is what this God want me to be unhappy I think sometimes you say yes very much yes he would rather you be unhappy and faithful now yeah then happy now and wrong and Damned and destroyed family well even that sense of like going back to the example you had mentioned before I said there's two things one is possibly freedom is mr. described where freedom might be word for it I could also say this is really for release the other thing would be someone reports and says I'm in a loving relationship and you don't you're cooking you're conflating an addiction to Prague Rafi it's to this relationship that is that brings me out of myself yeah that I feel I know I'm welcomed I know I'm known I'm cared for I'm loved like so good I remember that years ago there was a talk I gave on a college campus and after the talk this young woman stood up like father Mike I used to I remember she said used to I used to listen to your homily podcasts all through high school like okay what's coming now and she said and thank you for your talk he's a really respectful Amish I always appreciate cuz she's like I've been dating this woman for however long and she makes me more generous she makes me more patient she makes me a better person all these kind of things and what do you say to that and I remember I was like well actually everything you described I want to affirm everything you described is a sounds like a good relationship where the person is calling you out of yourself this person is making you more generous Mayo patient you have to die to yourself you have to truly choose to love them in so many ways everything you describe the church can affirm what you haven't described is a genital sexual relationship and that's what the church would say is problematic so it's so when someone says but look at all these great things and say everything you pointed to we would say yes it's this particular expression that we'd say and at this point is where love stops and in some way use creeps in and we can say that but any different relationship that you'd say I love what you've said before we've been on a panel discussion before a single conference so I remember you said this is not us right and then right it's just us can you talk about that and that's and that's the distinction is I think in so many ways we okay this a whole different topic but what I keep calling in my mind I tend to tarry anism and when that is is I get my identity from the group I'm part of and so my identity is on part of this group so I am either my race or I am my gender or I am my class or I am my nationality whatever that thing is like that is my deepest thing and everyone else is other yeah that's why you talked about like or people in our culture now talk about like you knows what communism studying a creeping always honestly the evil of communist people talk about being other denotes that sense of like oh your other INGOs people better people like okay yes and the church others them because they're not part of the group fine but here's what the church actually does the church never approaches groups search only approaches individuals and the Lord doesn't love y'all I was the Lord loves you specifically and so that sense of like when we evangelize when we approach people or a relationship when doing ministry it's not who you are your group and now how do i as a my group talk to you as your group so how do I so white heterosexual male talk to you like you know here's this african-american homosexual female like no how do how does father Mike talk to Jane you know as opposed to because okay so other so then we tend to at least news words that say well those people like so here you and I were talking right now and whoever's watching or listening to this would say there you are too sis exactly great white males you know from the Western world who have this vision talking about these people who aren't in the room with them and so it's they are talking about that these others and we are talking about them and as long as we do that we will get anywhere because ultimately what happens is it's us in them it's there for a lot of our conversations maybe we've failed in up to this point I have to be it's all about us in that sense of you I have wounds that you don't have and you have one said I don't have you have strengths I don't have an I have strengths you don't have and someone who wrestles with or experiences that same-sex attraction is not something I experienced or struggle with but that doesn't mean that their author I think I don't want to say this like this it's just like it's not them it's just us was it first Corinthians that says there's no trial that's come upon you that's not common to all human beings looks like okay no trial meaning everyone has their thing and that it's just like I don't know I don't know I mean that's I'm singing elegantly I know well let me tell you an inelegant story that I think speaking to what you're saying I was a student book conference and after the talk a teenager came up to me and we were chatting for a while and he shared with me that he had same-sex attraction now this can be this might be misunderstood but I'm gonna try and said it was like I get that if someone is experiencing this that this is a very profound part of them and it ought to be respected and received and reverenced but for whatever reason I mean I said it said okay you think you're special you know thing I [ __ ] that I'm dealing with and I bet I hugged him you know I think I hugged him first and it was in that loving yeah smiling conversation that I was able to then say that but he later told me that that was extinction he's written a book about it in that book he said it was it was the guy who wrote confessions of a gay oh yeah yeah like saying yeah and he said that it was a very liberating kind of mode yeah but it was but I think so he would see that the way I wanted to receive it like I love you I reverence what you're saying dude yeah it's not us and then it's not me and you it's it's it's us yeah yeah that that's so good and that's why I want to say almost everyone who comes and talks to me about this is like yeah and coming to like gets another yes um I'm no not like yeah that's just missing the same profound huge you've reeled this to me about yourself but that sense of yeah all right brother and I remember hearing someone say this day and they said when they came out to one of their good friends who said it's Catholic young men the friend said okay and if it wasn't this it would be something else yes yeah no this is a big it is a big deal this is a thing you've been dealing with your entire life and yes we're gonna keep doing this and we're keep working together but there's this whole notion of like exceptionalism our exception ISM and exception is amazing that I made up this word that would like well yeah I understand the church teaches this I understand the Bible teaches us I understand this is a right with but in my case like I'm the exception - yeah whatever it is that all the people need to like even see us lose right no show limit Sheldon a knock and writes about this in I think it's a book called under the mercy yes collection of essays yes where he talks about the false license of Eros and the false license of Eros is Bill's talking to him about how much he just loves sue and Sue makes him feel like he never felt before you know that meanwhile bill is married to Jane and like no but it's because I feel this eros that I have enough license that permission because love is my permission Holly and he's writing this not in any way shape or form about homosexuals right yeah because why because it's us it's every single one of us is tempted to say but okay yeah I'm a priest I made vows yes but in my case like no I need your release from this because I fallen in love with someone and you don't understand I have given so much my life to the church that did it so in my case it's gonna be okay yeah I will and then you hear people say things like well that's not the Jesus I worship or because you'll say that this is what the Church teaches well that's not what my god you think or how sad that you're not hearing what God is saying cuz all of us can say there's lots of teachings in the church I wish weren't there yeah like hell would be one of them but yeah I did that that's um that's when I I said yeah I mean sorry in my like say crass moments or maybe in my moments of less sensitivity I would say if someone says that's not the Jesus that I know I'm like yeah it's a distorted version of Jesus I guess it's a whoa that's your own version of Jesus I noticed that so I remember there's this you know how many of us we we create our own make God in our image hey so missus this book I Philip Yancey called the Jesus I never knew yeah and among the many things that stuck out with me stuck out to me about that book there was this one story about this baseball player was a Christian and in an interview after the game someone said you know if you ran into he like ran into the catcher at home plate knocked the ball loose and saying you know so-and-so you're a devout Christian is that how it is that how Jesus would play and what Jesus you know when he'd get the take the out rather than knock the yeah catch her over and the guy he apparently respond and said ya know he'd uh here's they love Jesus Jesus would play fair but he'd play to win and he probably tried to crawl out too and feel PNC says I remember watching this on TV and thinking like no that's not what Jesus do that's what you would do and you're putting that on you because that's what you would do you're saying well that's what Jesus would do and so we're we're all tempted to do that God in our image you don't do it we do it in the areas that I may think I was saying this earlier this summer at assumable conference I was like I have no problem resisting any temptation that I'm not currently experiencing absolutely - and I'm a really good person when I get everything I want yeah I'm generous but everything goes my way I'm so patient and kind and generous and loving but that's the thing is like this is not a special case and that says like I'm not a special case and that's I don't know something that I wonder if I don't know how to communicate that let me just could reframe all of this because I think I might have been speaking in a way that was a little bit too crass or whatever maybe less sensitive than I want it to be but like in this all of this is that sense of like we're really in this together yeah that it's easy to be flippant it's easy to be dismissive like are you kidding me these people are like oh god made me this way no no no no we are in this together in that sense that I know that there are times where there are some things in my life that God is calling me to do that are super painful and I would rather them be different and I know that you experienced things in your life that God is calling if they're super painful and you'd rather than be different I know that every single person we meet experiences that that same kind of thing of like this is super painful I'd rather it be different and that's not a small thing it's like a it's a really big deal and someone experienced a same-sex attraction I think sometimes one of the worst things we can do is treat them like it's a death sentence like I just don't all my kids and I understand this when parents are talking to me or whatever and they're saying I just really hope my child doesn't experiences like I get it but that's no more a death sentence than your child coming forward and saying like here's another thing I experiencing a wound that I have in my life I agree across that I have to carry like okay that's not a death sentence the Lord loves you in this the Lord is calling you to follow him in this yeah Lord your neck this doesn't disqualify you it ate as it doesn't disqualify you from being faithful Tim it also does this qualify you from being a saint and I just think I'm there this is the thing okay sorry don't be sorry this is good I here's what I want to happen more and more okay there are more and more young people that I meet and old people that I meet who experience same-sex attraction who claim Jesus like fully and saying no I know what the Lord is calling me to do I'm not perfect I but I do know what he's calling me to do there are times of loneliness but I also know there's times of fullness and relationship um even invitation is one of those kind of groups Courage's and all of those groups ya know people report and say that when we have more and more people our brothers and sisters who are part of us you know we're all who are saying like no actually this is my experience of the church like the young man who wrote the book that say things like you know this is I just deeply I don't can't remember a time when I wasn't attracted to members of the same sex and I've met I have a lot of joy in following Christ and this is not a death sentence for me but here is a way that any person and every person can move forward in love and move forward in like full freedom and joy and if a real relationships look like and Ralad that concept it's excellent yeah it's it's excellent and obviously you've crystallized a lot of these thoughts into your book yeah I think I have Dryden received well I tried I think so yeah but I think there's been uh I know that there's been people who have been helped by it which I'm really grateful for because it you know writing book is perfect it's hard yeah and they name it what they want to name it slap on the face of it whatever they want on an ad so you've said a few things in this interview which I love and it just reveals the father's heart that you have like when we were two met John Mulaney yeah what can i well know I I guess we've been like it really shows that you have that heart of a father what's the Clark being a what does it mean to be a father when you're a priest yeah how do you experience well that I always go back to um so when I was in seminary they kept saying again and again things like you know you're not being ordained to be a sacrament dispenser you're not being ordained to be just like you know the just a a person gives Hanalei his person who does the functions you're not being ordained to be a functionary basically like oh okay but then they never filled in the blank I like its minister your presents like okay I don't know what that means you know and it wasn't I couple that with growing up in an era and in a kind of maybe we'll even say uh a climate where I feel like I need to apologize for being a man entering yeah the seminary entering the priesthood yeah and then having that like the silliness what's appeared to be silly because it's come across as silly of like the 29 year old priest talking to a 85 year old woman saying oh go on my child like yeah oh my son come in here to the 90 year old man like I just don't I can't see that at all yep but a couple years ago except been ordained about 16 years now having a brother priest like just started speaking about the priest has father wish that all of a sudden was like this is the missing piece like this is this is this becomes out everything like this is the the lens through which everything that they said you're not a sacrament dispenser you're not just a preaching machine you're not just or whatever means your presence like what kind of presence father's presence like oh my gosh so you're not marinating me an administrator for parish or to be a you know accountant book keeper but dads have to balance the checkbook and dads have to run the family and they have to make sure that this is taken care of they have to stand like oh my gosh Lord this is what your day me for is the role of priest as father and nothing less than that and now but if someone had said that to you back in seminary maybe that would have sound just as vacuous a goodness and it could have been sounded well I would have received it as being presumptuous yeah so I want to know what you mean my father then since you could have hurdled at one point and it could have meant very little yeah what does it mean I'm exotic presumptuous because again I Here I am 27 years old yeah what do I know about yeah fathering anything in and so um so there are other who am way more mature than me who didn't have the same kind of wounds I think probably that would would prohibit that because I don't want to be presumptuous I don't be silly I don't want to be that you know okay sure kid you know kind of him yeah the one of the biggest blessings is so I my first couple years being a priest I was at a parish for two years and then I was assigned to the campus and assigned at the campus at I think 29 years old so I'm only a couple years older than some of the oldest students Wow and so like okay I'm more like the older brother thank you call me father which I'm grateful for but then as I love being on campus as I get older yeah cuz I'm like actually I'm literally some of some of you who have dads who are younger than me and in that sense of like really knowing in this stage of my life like as they come they arrive on campus like how you actually could be like my age your age like biological children yeah and so more and more and it's just a human development as well spiritual development seeing like then my spiritual children them is giving me the greatest honor I remember a couple years ago it happened for the first time where I walked into the room and one of our focus missionaries is like hi dad like hey guys okay you know and cuz it just struck me and that's so now it happens a lot where our students will be this will call me dad and and that if nothing else you just constantly reinforces what it is so it's imagine is you just you hear your kids call you dad yeah there's that thing so like it's an honor like wow you love that name but it's and um you're like all the ways I feel yeah like all the ways I I want to be like good dad and so and they do a good job of reminding me in that sense of like like here's what I need now and so I member you can just over the course of this summer multiple times getting messages where the emails or texts or whatever saying hey can you call me because those students are gone in the summertime you give me a call quick because I could use a dad right now and just being like okay so normally what would be like okay I'll help you know give some counsel yes I was like oh no no no this is you need more than just counseling any more than just like here's the priests wisdom like you're it's specifically explicitly saying what you need from me right now so I better rise to the occasion or else I'll be hanging on and not all for any kind of false humility yeah like false humility meaning like well what I have it right no no none of that I need you yeah - you know father means when you say be a Ministry of presence like Oh a father's presence yeah and that's why I like even just when it comes to traveling we were talking before you know that cutting down a lot on being gone thinking like nah it's okay if I'm gone because I show up when it counts I show up on the yours mass time here's the confession time zone here like I know they need someone who lives here because I'm not just the functionary I they need the father and so like a hot man so it's really I would say that the students have revealed this to me concurrently the Lord reveals to me in prayer as well that's cool and so I'm just really grateful for that I would like to hear more priests call me son mmm like we we are starved with from fatherhood in this world a and I would like to hear more of that at the same time I get where you're coming from if I was a 27 priest I would feel super silly ever they say my daughter my son but sometimes when a priest gets up and says brothers and sisters I'm like would you just claim your father who yeah and call me a son yeah and let it be awkward kind of like when you marry someone you start calling their parents mum and dad yeah but can we just get over it because it would be nice if you know so I'll do that occasionally it will it's usually a big moments where I just kind of it's where I just kind of rather than saying my son or my children something like this but be able to just kind of describe mmm say it's just such an honor not just you know be a priest but to be your dad and you have kids like you like that kind of thing yes yes so you say it no no like weird way yeah what you say like mice children right you get images from like the 1950s movies or something good may have been appropriate back then but now mizzen gonna sound cool or normal or natural but you say it in a natural way one of the things I love is when my kids say dad can you can you help me catch bugs there can you sit on the couch with me and so many times I want to say no cuz I'm in the middle of something so what I try and have them say in my head is is what they're saying is dad it would be better if you were with me yeah what a lovely thing to say because my son Peter can go out and catch bugs on his own but he's saying I could do that but it would be better if you were with me I'm just so moved when I let such a thing to is like so I work in different parishes over the course like even seminary and then other times there's been good pastors and good staff and all those kind of things all these different places that I've been able to see at but I remember noticing a couple different places even if I just visited and they talked about how how kind of nice it was on the priest day off like oh he said he's away for the week oh good like that kind of relief I think my kids do that when I leave well it's working on it there's that sense of like like oh shoot I guess that's how it is I guess when you we knew the pastor is just like you know people are happy when you leave and I mean seeing it as a negative obviously but yes come on guys this is just a real what happens and then the last you know number of years being on campus and being gone for whatever a couple days or coming go leaving for a trip even leaving for one afternoon like I'm gone for the night and I come back in the next morning and our students and our missionaries saying like are so glad you're back you're back it's not the same if you're not here great and it's like oh my gosh like that I had assumed that you didn't care or that you liked it when I wasn't here or whatever the thing is yeah um but to hear like it's not the same when you're not here yeah so we're so glad you're back like oh okay noted especially when I get in to it in my head about they need me to be X or to be Y or to do what X or do y it's like now okay they just I want to be here yeah in that dance it that's really great can you tell me what's the number one you might have to explain what the the confess to seal the confessionalism why this isn't breaking it but what's the what's the primary sin you're hearing kind of being confessed in the confessional um I don't know they're not one thing it's yeah I think that there's a there's the there are the things that you can really see our influences of the culture things that are ubiquitous or things are just kind of like obviously when it comes to areas of like you know purity that kind of thing would be a thing but at the same time there's so much of a desire how I say this to belong to the Lord but to be like pulled in so many different directions and so to recognize like a I'm not praying like I should yeah I find myself being false in certain situations like basically anything that I think anyone would confessing likes and so like would it be pride or anything one of the things I've two things I found one is that as a priest hearing confessions is an incredible examination of conscience because what what is what is move someone's conscience is oftentimes something that's in my life but I've never never considered it as like oh my gosh that's there another source is the Screwtape Letters CS Lewis just like nails that when it comes to the interior life and the battles that everyone goes through no no not that everyone goes through every one of the things he names but I just am in awe of a man who had never heard confessions had never heard other people's bearing them elder people burying their souls and yet is able to say but this is how the one works in the most innocuous or in the most seemingly innocuous of ways yeah but it gave devastating results like dude how do you know all of those because he knows just a lot yes that's how he knows it yeah when people come to you for confession are you you you see that it's like okay this is like my fatherly mission I can't refuse them or is there time to be like I'm tired I've got stuff to do you should have asked earlier we had three hours available you didn't choose to take it yes like there's a human battle but there's also um I my first the day I encountered the Lord for the first time in a in the way that I really recognized it was I was in confession and I walked out of the confessional and I said God thank you so much for a forgiving my sins second thought if you ever want me to be a priest I'll hear anyone's confession whenever they ask third she's really cute that's how it was good through the way through the list so the first time even considered being a priest I thought that God if you ever wanted to be a priest I'll hear anyone's confession whenever they ask and that's still there I have to admit there's times where like you know as human level of like we have convention every day on campus and so there's that sense of like sometimes here's someone who comes at like a random time oh you guys there is it you know it's we're having a vision in an hour but I'd really try never to let that show because um hey I know I know it I know personally what it is to say you know to text a brother priests or to call a priest or just say it's just I hear I'm in town mmm father I just can I go to confession and I remember talking with a guy last weekend and he said that he once went to confession and it was like the lion was getting issued yeah he's short you know it's time to end and he walked he walked in the confessional his priest was standing up oh he's like father one more and the priest was like okay so no no I don't have to do it he's like no no no go ahead go ahead and he said I just he said I want like it made my confession and it was legit and yeah I think but I didn't I felt like and even though he was like no no it's okay it was that initial reaction like it was a priestess coming yeah you know like you know criticizing him and saying that but at the same time Ian's not wanting to give that impression and so I never ever want anyone to feel that way hopefully they haven't ever yeah but so yeah because there's always a joy I mean ultimately what it is it's like no this is why I'm alive yeah there been so many times when it's been like here's an opportune or not perfect for my schedule or went really really long and like this is why I'm a lizard literally why I'm alive like God this is one of the reasons why you created me was for this confession right here I suspect that the reason we here of absent fathers in a family has to do with their belief that they do not have what it takes they do not have what their family wants of them right so if my children are looking to me for something I know I can't give all right there could be a lot of shame there yeah and this thing leads a lot of fathers outside the home like I'll have my work life I'll try and border that up I can hear I'm not being I can crush this yeah I can crush this and I like crushing things I can't crush this and I feel like a failure yeah and I wonder how many priests like how many husbands have left the family left the priesthood because they're genuinely terrified and that they just don't have whatever it is you're bloody looking for and I'm sure the whole experience that's three or another as a father of children or as a priest people coming to you demands being made upon you and you see your own woundedness and this is why it's so bloody important that we all do the work of inner healing is yeah oh my gosh as you were saying that I'm like yeah it's because it's sometimes it's not the work it's the work beneath the work like it's not it's not I can't do this sure you can I think I can't what change another diaper you can't sit down with your kids you can't like throw a ball you can't I can't be present and I mean that's the thing is like I know even when it comes to priesthood there are some things that I'm gifted at or that I do relatively well that other guys don't do as well but when I hear my students talk about them at Oh father so and so he's the best we love him like oh my gosh okay so so clearly they don't love me because I do this better than him yeah they just love that why why do you like father so and so he just expense time with us or he is willing to listen he's willing to whatever like oh so all the things I thought you were impressed by ultimately don't matter because what you really want is what everyone wants so much one really knows cares about you absolutely yeah it's like any of us if you look back at your dad and you say think of some moments it would really meant a lot it probably wasn't seeing him do some cool trick or something it was whether you were sitting with him or when he took you camping what events in that I remember years ago I worked up in northern Minnesota and a parish but my first assignment and there was a funeral I did we did a lot of funerals up there and the grown daughter was describing her dad and because I got to know him and then he as he was dying in that last month's of his life she was describing she said he's always stuck with me especially when it comes to physical fitness and we but we originally talked about in this whole conversation um so I got my dad do you make so weak now he's like he's 90 plus and he's lost all this weight but I just can't remember like how he had such big biceps like it's such big arms I remember being so proud of my dad and his white t-shirt with all these big biceps and materias her dad who she loves with nothing there's no you know muscle on his body and this is the man that she like yeah I remember when he was really healthy and fit yeah but here's the man I love right now yeah and just that sense of again when it comes to whether it be attractiveness or abilities or she's not there because he has big biceps she's there because he's her dad I remember talking with youth minister and she was like how you know back in why first our youth ministry I was dieting exercising and I wanted to be like the yes the cool youth exactly and I realize now they don't care I'm 20 pounds overweight they have they couldn't care less I also want to know what fent is yeah am I here for them and in a way like being the cool hip youth minister is almost a bit yeah what do you say look a bit campy yeah that's a liability - what do you mean it's a liability in the sense that like it's all your charisma it's all your personality it's all on your gifts now yeah as opposed to something that's deeper yeah because why pants all about you yeah and what is that ministry y'all gonna be about my mom always says this whenever I go anywhere um and she like yeah mom I'm going to this place a little nervous you know she's like okay well peering for you remember what the real star is that's good she's always like mom I know remember they're not coming to see you they they just need filler I need Jesus they need to know that he loves them and he's calling them to bigger things people wanted I had certain things they want to know how to discern the vocation if they're feeling led to the priesthood they want to know what steps they can take what advice do you have I think there's a couple things first is to know the nature or the character of God and that God knows you better than you know yourself and he loves you better than you love yourself in that sense of being able if I know that if I know that he actually loves and cares knows and cares no one loves me back and trusts him that if he did he's good you know it's Colonel Newman God has created me for a definitive purpose for a definite purpose of some sort that he needs calling me okay so he's on my side yeah he's on my static entrusted to own me that I don't have to he's not leaving me orphan to figure this out on my own yeah or I like to scrub it like it's not like God thinks that you need to be Sherlock Holmes and you'd like need to read like okay I can tell by the way that this is arranged that here's what you want me to do if he knows who and loves you he knows the way you think he knows what you need and he loves you enough to give you what you need to know what he wants you know he's not playing hide and seek right exactly so if I know that it means I can trust him and if I can trust him that means that I can do a couple things that will open my me up to letting him speak to me and I always do use three things I say ask yourself the question am i a state of grace I'm doing my daily duties and I pray today yeah because if not in a state of grace well then I'm making it more difficult of course God can always access us about making more difficult for him to access so now instead of grace okay go back to confession number two am i doing my daily duties am i doing the things he's a set up for me on a regular basis cuz I'm not I'm clearly avoiding something that he's placed in my life you know and if I am doing it then I'm seeing us to him and thirdly and my prang meaning am I just giving him any chance to speak to me because it doesn't make any sense to say God what do you want for me to do and then I give him any time to like actually give me an answer and so I say if the person does those those does those three things then they don't worry there's gonna be afraid of anything why could you can trust him that he's speaking all that I remember contacting a Capuchin bishop in Australia is I was very drawn to the cat savor them and say with the CFR's in London he said something that like was I think was super profound he said don't be afraid if you're drawn to our order because of our habit oh my god he just exposed me that's totally why yeah I think you look awesome I would love to walk around like that so it was cool he said because what you're seeing you're attracted to a charism like right that's being expressed don't be afraid that you're attracted to a superficial element of the religious life he's they would be like if you fell in love with a woman but the first thing you notice was her eyes or her hair or her body was like good but that ought to lead you deeper so I just what do you think about all of that they're very simple that is and honest of this because sometimes you bought like wow maybe I'm just a drawn to this because of some super super official reason okay and I mean your superficial person it's like someone who says so I don't wanna confess you know confession because like I I don't really feel sorry but I want to go to hell like okay you have a mercenary heart CS Lewis has a whole poem about that that we have mercenary heart and God is so good that he's willing to accept you with your mercenary heart so that's what he has to use to draw that's what he uses dramas all of us in the first place is give you some consolations yeah and since you have a mercenary heart I will and continue to give you consolations until it's time to grow up and come to have you know a deeper yeah yeah so I love that bill about but yeah yeah I'm gonna go to the priesthood why the caller good say it yeah don't hide don't hide now say it yeah yeah yeah well and then okay so then what's some practical advice someone's instead of grace you know they're they're doing their daily duties what's the next step like who do they reach out to and yeah and how many men are you speaking to right now who are like are you kidding the last thing I would do is become a priest yeah no I most people who bring it up to me are really open to it at least I suspect that's true if somebody is engaged in the spiritual life serious about the Catholic faith you know evil priests laypeople or bishops I wanted to do what I know for myself nothing rocking like for myself even discernment it wasn't I saw a bunch of amazing priests and now want to be an amazing priest yeah it was I see oh this is that in something all the priests of my diocese but I see well I think could be done better and I'm like I think the I think I can do that better and hopefully not in a super arrogant way but even that even superficial yes that's what it is like father Mike has this terrible way of speaking I can do that better great so there's there's an attraction there what they should do I think I like the example of like algebra and I have to solve for x a really long problem solve for x but there's also variables like Y Z W Q I need to know what some of these other variables are before I can solve for X so I just keep looking at the problem I see an X and then Y and the W and the Z and Q like I I need to know what Z is and so get more data and so one of the things we get more data is like in visiting a seminary or a woman visiting a convent for a person just learning marriage go on a date you know because that's giving you more data you never make a better decision and that's one of the things that sometimes people I went to visit the convent and I didn't know for sure someone told me that if I set foot house maybe there's your Ian he'll think oh that's not true I remember somebody went visit to seminary I hated it so much I wanted to go home immediately if I were to use that as my cue I had been like no no I'm not coming back I'm not gonna give another seminary another try or thinking that I have to get there and know now I know not the answer I know more than I did before and same thing when it comes to like I talked to a priest in Aston about this I talked to a religious sister and asked her about this leaving this conversation I don't now know I know more than I did before and so to look at as like come and see weekend it's just some collecting more data yeah and now I it's like it's like the analogy I like is siting in a gun so before like deer hunting season opens up you have the rifle and take it out to the range and you gotta line up the scope on the target and you put you know the dot and the cross hairs then you don't get up and leave you get up and then you lie there and you pull the trigger you have to actually have to shoot you have to try you have to move and it's off you just making some adjustments and then line it up and shoot again and make some adjustments and line up it shoot again you don't do this on opening day you don't do this when you have a deer in your in the scope you do it when it's safe and you do it in small ways so you just have make small adjustments and that's the thing when it comes to I think any kind of discernment is should I start a new business well you could scrap everything and just try to make this business or you could make maybe take some steps and see if like this is right this is not right okay and adjust so that kind of discernment always has action involved in it oh so in evaluation well that's great okay I think that'll do yeah pretty much is the best thanks again man all right thank you so much for watching this incredible chat that I just had with father Mike Schmitz what an amazing man now we're gonna pause right now and if you are a patron go to patreon.com/crashcourse like what's it like when when people comment on his looks I mean I know he's not as attractive as me but he is attractive and a lot of people like say things like father water waste and I've always wondered like what's that like because I hate it when people say that so we gotta talk about that we talked about some other things I think you're really going to enjoy it so if you're a patron head over to patreon combat fraid you can watch it right now if you're not yet a patron and you are support all of this work that we're doing at the Matt Fred show pints with Aquinas go to patreon.com/scishow month ten bucks a month you get a bunch of free things in return like sign books stickers access to audio that you wouldn't have access to otherwise access to things like this the Matt Fred show you'll get episodes a day early soon at the bet pints with Aquinas there really is a ton of stuff we give you in return there's also just an online community there at patreon.com slash Matt Fred that you get to be a part of I bounce ideas off of you if you're a patron a patron you know this I asked the question suggestions things like that it would really mean a lot to me I know people don't sign up for the gifts they sign up because hopefully they believe in the work that I'm doing so if that's you would you please go to patreon.com/scishow and you'll get access to other things as well and it would really mean a lot now if you don't like patreon and you want to give just directly you won't have the whole patreon experience but there are some people who just want to give directly go to pints with Aquinas comm / donate pints with Aquinas comm / donate and you can do it there really means the world to me thank you so much and to patrons we'll pick up this conversation over at patreon.com slash Matt Fred job lesson thanks

Channel: Pints With Aquinas

Views: 220,949

Rating: 4.8986678 out of 5

Keywords: fr. mike schmitz, crossfit, catholic, bishop robert barron, flannery o'connor, fr james martin, homosexuality, priesthood, intermittent fasting, lgbtq

Id: yHWphnH390w

Length: 180min 7sec (10807 seconds)

Published: Mon Aug 19 2019