Fr. Leonard Klein: A Lutheran Minister Becomes Catholic Priest - The Journey Home (1-29-2007)

good evening and welcome to the journey home my name is Marcus Grodi your host for this program our guest tonight is father Leonard Kline he's a former Lutheran minister now Catholic priest he's here to share his journey with us and I want to as I begin each program to let you know right off the bat that you're an important part of our programs so if you'd like to call with a question for father Kline you can do that at one 800 two two one nine four six Oh outside North America you can call us at 205 270 129 80 or you can send me an email at journey home at ewtn.com by the Klein welcome to the journey home thank you very much it's good to have you here I'm a for a little bit of a former lutheran myself so we've got so I understand yeah most people think of me as a Presbyterian pastor that was a a second stage in my own spiritual journey but I I remember the good days of my Lutheran upbringing and so I'm you're in a little bit I hear your story some of our familiar paths let me get out of the way and invite you to share a little summary of your journey well like you I I have warm memories of my Lutheran past which wasn't that long ago right but started a long time ago I was baptized and raised in the Lutheran Church my parents became involved in a confirmation class when they were engaged very ambitious young Lutheran pastor in rural Pennsylvania gathered a class of young adults and instructed them they were very active as the years went by in that rural Pennsylvania parish one of the practices of the Pennsylvania Dutch countryside got under the skin of some of the more dedicated people it was this that the buildings the church buildings were often shared by a reformed and a Lutheran congregation he had a joint sunday-school but you had Church only every other week when the pastor of your denomination came some of the more ardent folks thought you probably ought to have a worship service every week they couldn't change the system and people from three of these parishes withdrew formed their own independent Jason were adopted by the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod and what was it originally it was originally the what a bit what would have been called at that time the ulc the United Lutheran Church in America all right and as a result I I grew up with the the very thorough biblical instruction and and and doctrinal training of the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod Synod and it it sank in and I absorbed it very deeply very early whether I was profoundly pious I don't know but I was certainly convinced of the truth of the Christian gospel and and very well very well equipped I was fortunate enough to be admitted to Yale as an undergraduate and went off to college with that good training behind me and as a result did not fall away from from God and from the church in college that's not an easy thing to do it not only those college is not always an easy thing to do now but certainly it wasn't the only person who was active in the church and there were people in many denominations including a few Catholics that I got to know rather well in those years I I when it went to college in 1963 so the Second Vatican Council was on I was still in college then as the early ecumenical movement really took off so I had friendly contacts with with the Catholic Church for the first time in my life in college I'd gone to college hoping to be a lawyer and in my freshman year that started to change the the pastor who had confirmed me was was a wonderful man but sometimes you're too close to to somebody and they're too familiar and it never occurred to me that I would want to be a pastor to that changed in in my freshman year in college and told my family I think on the Thanksgiving break that I was prepared to go to seminary and actually started moving in that direction so I took Greek and my soft more year for instance and took a lot of courses in religion history and moved ahead with those plans stayed around at Yale and again at four Divinity School and there once again ran into the Catholic tradition but in a much more serious way Thomas Aquinas caught my interest but so did the modern theologian Karl Rahner one of my instructors was George Lynde Beck who was a Lutheran observer at Vatican two and and I still count him as a friend I stayed there I finished my divinity training and went on spent a year at the Missouri Synod Seminary in st. Louis which was actually in many ways academically more rigorous than Yale and and set out and was ordained in 1972 in October of 1972 and began of a ministry that was ten years in New York City and all three of our children have New York New York on there under birth certificates then we moved to New York Pennsylvania for complex variety of reasons one of which was that my wife had a teaching position at the Gettysburg Lutheran seminary so we moved down there and eventually I became the senior pastor of that parish and remained in that capacity until I entered the Catholic Church in in the summer of 2003 one thing I think that is really important for me to say is that my understanding of Lutheranism had been from very early on certainly from my college days that the Lutheran Church was deeply Catholic in its substance and I knew that already from the doctrine we I grew up with the Assumption in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod that while the Episcopalians prayed for the dead and called their clergy father that Lutheran's were really far more Catholic than Episcopalians because we had the doctrine and and talked to the same language and I think in many ways that was true but else had a deeply sacramental understanding of the church I remember how important my first communion was to me and in those days First Communion was after confirmations was in in the eighth grade you remembered it and if possible I would always be at the Sunday service where communion was celebrated in in those years so that was very important my understanding of of liturgical worship was was very important the liturgy was always very reverently done in the church when I grew up and and I really internalized that and I'd like to surprise Catholics by saying I grew up knowing then they the Latin names for the Sundays in Lent and and so my practice is a Lutheran pastor in the in the many years that I was a pastor was very much in keeping with what I believed in fact to be the genuine understanding of the Lutheran Reformation is deeply sacramental and deeply liturgical you know I look back I remember my 30th anniversary of my confirmation classes as a loser and going back and one of my best friend's classmate had become a Lutheran pastor and he mm-hmm led the worship that that day it had been many years since I had been a Lutheran and it amazed me how similar the worship was to the mass was I was quite taken back by that in my church growing up there was a life-size statue of Jesus on the ocean so there are many very Catholic things but one question before we move on though the Lutheranism of today has its differences from what Luther himself taught yeah and when in when you were brought up Lutheran as you were trained in the Lutheran seminary as you pastor Lutheran was that something that the act the average lutheran is aware of or do they assume that what they believe and do today is the way Luther believed in did back I think you can find both I I think a lot of Lutheran laypeople say of a generation ago might have had a sense that Luther was maybe a little more Catholic than we are today perhaps not knowing what they meant by that so that people would take as people will whatever we're doing now must be the way it's supposed to be this meant of course invariably that a Lutheran pastor committed to the liturgical and sacramental traditions of Lutheranism that really substantive part of it would tend to face some resistance trying to introduce those practices I think in ways of like Mary I mean Lutheran do count on both our devotions to Mary but a humid and Lutheran's have a devotion to Mary like Luther that's right and and I think that's something that many Lutheran's would not understand the depth of Luther's devotion to Mary I would say that at least in the parishes that I served I don't think there was the kind of hostility to to the role of Mary that you might find elsewhere but I know in the one parish I served we had a large statue of Saint John the Evangelist above the altar and many people thought it was Mary because their Saint Saint John has never portrayed with the beard long hair no beard another thing is that Luther had such a strong in his writing view and the total depravity and depravity of the will and I remember when I grew up was Lutheran that didn't seem to be quite as stressed as much yeah now I grew up in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod so there what Augustinian streak was a little harder okay there of the the real weakness of the human will in the incapacity to save oneself certainly the way things were going and Evangelical Lutheran Church in America when I left it that serious sense of sin was was kind of evaporating being being politicized in psychologize your everything I was asking these is that you know again brought up a Lutheran that many Luther's do not realize the the change that the church went through after Luther and the generations after Luther to make it connect between the Lutheranism today with what Luther actually did and taught and like you said for them to realize how Catholic he was because he was so much within a tradition so if I ask you what opened your heart to the church I'm wondering is it was a part of it also because you didn't know about more of the Catholicism of Luther in your own desire for the sacramental way yeah I I think it really was and many under many ways that my understanding of of Lutheranism had to tilt me toward the Catholic Church it had to make the Catholic Church be a friendly looking place to me not a hostile one when people asked the question in a somewhat different way from the way you've put it when they say to me when did you first start thinking about it I actually have an answer and the answer is in seminary as as I confronted particularly the the work of Thomas Aquinas and and of Karl Rahner as I mentioned a modern and a medieval theologian I saw issues being raised there that I didn't think Lutheranism was able to raise was was able to deal with that there was a breath there and over my years as a Lutheran pastor I tended to feel that the more and more to feel that the sharp division of law from gospel in a very negative view of law that Lutheran theology took was not only wrong and unhelpful but downright unbiblical so there was always that that inclination but he told me this afternoon I would raise the question of what finally opened my heart that's her and I had to think about it a few moments and but then I told you and I'll tell the audience now and that is I think it really was John Paul the second the the man himself the incredibly powerful witness and of course the the rejuvenation of the church and the rescue of a deacon to represented by by john paul ii like many a serious and theologically conservative Protestant I watched those early years after vatican ii with considerable dismay wanted to say yo fellas we've been here already let us tell you you don't want to go in the direction of a kind of radical subjectivity a rejection of authority this is a dead end and in the words of the famous Southern Baptist I forget who it was all of a sudden we had a pope who knew how to Pope and and that made me say to myself okay why why am i outside my heart and my head are inclining me to full communion toward the fullness of the Catholic Church the richness of the tradition the the incredible richness of material that you have to work with with people in the sacraments the lives of the Saints the devotions the traditions these these things I identified with identified with strongly and I think finally that witness said to me that I needed to do what I'd been tending toward for an awfully long time you mentioned Karl Rahner mm-hmm I remember one of the first Catholics I read in seminary was another Catholic by the name of Hans King mm-hmm and for a while there kind of bent me on this and I'm wondering maybe we ought to clarify the Karl Rahner for our audience because in the end he had some struggles with his theology and sure I think sure Karl Rahner did have some Runyon's later in his life with with the Magisterium over a few specific issues but but remained I think an honored theologian to the end of his life what I think what I found so valuable in his writing was his emphasis on the human being as a fit receptacle for revelation the tendency toward total depravity in the Protestant traditions tends to muddy those waters and you begin to wonder in some some portrayals of the human being why God wants to save this thing anyway and so I think what for me runners work in in anthropology and the understanding of man of the human person was was really critical even if yes at some point say I and other people other people disagree with it and I just wanted to make sure because some people would hear him and they've heard we have to be careful that we don't always recommend folk you know make sure they go and grab a book is wool this doesn't sound like Catholic as I mention Hans Kuhn and you know be careful there the other thing that fat you made the comment about John Paul rescuing Vatican 2 and and to a real sense I think that you know there he was at the beginning of adding him to very much a part of issuer but then later taking it back himself as a bishop to his own diocese and trying to do the the the correct implementation of it and then giving the reigns at a time when there had been so much poor application of it as said bringing it back in line the best that he could and then you find yourself a priest doing it yourself yes did you anticipate that the door would be open for you for the priesthood I did anticipate it it was it was important for me there was not a condition of my entering the church I was certainly prepared to do something else but I think my own sense of vocation had been deep since my late teens and that I very much wanted to continue in active pastoral ministry to the people of God and I became aware that the route was still open talked to some friends and finally approached Cardinal William Keeler of Baltimore on the fall of 2001 and he was very warm very encouraging very supportive very helpful but he had to help me find another diocese because he had just accepted a married Lutheran man as a possible candidate for the priesthood in the diocese of in the Archdiocese of Baltimore and within the province of Baltimore Bishop Salter le my bishop now in Wilmington was was willing to take on this somewhat unusual and difficult case and shepherded it through for me in an article that I read that that you wrote which is a fascinating article on basically the article was on addressing the issue whether the decision that was made 500 years ago back in Wittenberg was a direct trajectory to the liberalism then we see in yeah Protestantism today and and one part of that that I often have mentioned on this program that it seems that a major difference between Catholicism and Protestantism is often this difference between Protestants seem to tend towards the either/or where Catholics are comfortable with the both hands and I think that's a fascinating thing or if you could talk about that or audience yeah let me just take the one thing I've already mentioned and that is the law gospel division within Lutheranism now Lutheranism doesn't formally say the law of God is bad and the gospel is good it's not in that sense strictly in either/or on the other hand the function of law is seen as virtually entirely negative whereas I think within the Catholic tradition it's very easy to say but of course the law condemns our sin and shows it to us but it also reveals the good and gracious will of God and is therefore enormous ly helpful enormous ly salutary in trying to shape and form our lives as Christians obviously some of the other either/or is get more drastic in Lutheranism for instance it's either a sacrifice or it's a sacrament promised from God to you but it can't be something human beings do and something that God does and the mass cannot be both sacrifice and sacrament and so you get some strange rhetoric sometimes from Lutheran's like we don't do anything in the liturgy in this one Lutheran friend of mine once wisecrack to the bread and wine do not get to the altar by themselves for this to happen for the sacrament of Christ's body and blood to come to his people human beings have to do something now let's talk about what that is you know is it a making Holies of pleading again of Christ's sacrifice if so some sacrifice do I was thinking as I looked back on my own theology as a Presbyterian after Lutheran and in a certain sense the Calvinists went even farther to emphasize the either/or with a strong division particularly in the sovereignty of God mm-hmm and our lack of free will yeah and so it pushes you to that predestination side and I'm thinking there's an example where they couldn't see that in the mystery of God it's both God's sovereignty but yet in that he allows us the freedom to choose fully and there's that mystery of the birth and a Luther was there too I mean he started it with the depravity of the Wizzle but recognizing the beauty of that either it's a both/and yeah yeah and that Lutheranism really was never able to to make that happen theologically as you say never determinist as Calvinism was but I felt that Lutheranism really struggled over that issue in fact had that major splits and Lutheranism to the through the years so for the question of Reedus predestination you know I I did a major paper when in my year at Concordia st. Louis tracking the doctrine of predestination in the medieval theologians and noticing that all of them had maintained a high level of ambiguity and either-or that Luther tried but the complete rejection of a human role finally got the upper hand talked a little bit about also in your transition from the Lutheran understanding of Scripture to the Catholic understanding of the three-legged stool of authority mm-hmm every time the Protestant minister picks up the Bible and says the Bible says he is granting credibility and authority to the bishops of the early church who after all were the ones who determined what books would be in it apart from the witness of the church and of Israel from which the Scriptures come and the decision of those two communities what these books would be we couldn't use the term Scripture at all we'd be referring to merely generic ancient writings so the fact that there is a Bible at all is itself a witness to the authority of the church your average Lutheran in your congregations whether they have had an idea where the Bible came from I think certainly the the average well-informed person would you know they know the Bible had a history right they know it didn't come in a black cover but the problem have known that it was Catholic Bishops that had declared probably not I don't think when I would tell people that they weren't appalled yes but they don't people don't think about that somehow the Bible seems to tell us what the Bible is but of course is the one thing the Bible manifestly does not do is say what books are in the Bible right that's right even the idea that Sola scriptura could have existed in those first three hundred years is an absurdly right and it was the church starts before there is a New Testament one other topic that I remember in your paper you that you had drawn a distinction between is this the priesthood of all believers versus the unique priesthood of the sacramental priesthood and again the either-or division that existed existed there talked about if you would about comparison of your understanding of the ministry of the laity as a Lutheran and the need for it more mm-hmm in the Catholic Church the loop the priesthood of all believers is a real red herring in Lutheranism Luther had a high view of the ordained ministry and a high sense of the Lutheran confessions are very clear that no one is to preach or preside at the sacraments without being ritually called being ordained that of course was never meant to be against the laity the Pope the whole point of ordaining priests is for the sake of the people of God and those ministries simply aren't in in competition had to fight that issue in the Lutheran Church you know in many ways theologically it was very much up for grabs there was a lot of what one might call a clerical anti-clericalism in the Lutheran Church course there's a little bit of that in the Catholic Church - the best thing Catholic priests can do for the ladies be priests and if they do that well the lady will find its mission it's ministry in the modern world you mentioned so much john paul ii and that was a one of the his biggest messages was for the laity to remember their apostolate that they have a very important part to play and and and his wonderful encyclical crucify oscillate she was in the layout of christ are such an important message but often i i know that when i was a protestant my view as a looked at the catholic lady mmm-hmm that i felt that they were shackled mm-hmm sure because of what I had been taught on this division again between the two of course if you were Missouri Synod Lutheran there is much the same sort of thing you know whose hair posture and I still remember when I arrived at my first pastor at my second parish was communions a communion sunday actually there was communion at one service every Sunday at that parish when I got there and the head usher Reinhard Biermann comes up to me and says pastor how do you want us to bring him forward for communion I said the same what are you always doing is a you're the boss I remember as a boy when I went forward to communion we knelt at the altar she was you know in a very devotional way and but then I remember visiting a friend's Lutheran Church and it was a whole different world and there's a lot of variety there is a the fifties and sixties and a lot of inconsistency sure alright let's take a break and we'll come back we'll have some phone calls and emails for okay I seen a bit welcome back to the journey home our guest tonight is father Leonard Klein and thank you for condensing a life's journey into a very short time I appreciate that and we've got some emails and phone calls wait he's let's get to them this one comes from David nee writes dear father climb you keep referring to the sacramental character of the Lutheran Church yet the Lutheran Church has in fact only two sacraments baptism and marriage in communion you're right just like any other Christian denomination and I thought that Martin Luther himself only accepted two sacraments baptism and communion in this context what do you mean by Lutheran sacramentalism okay well first of all the the great emphasis on baptism and the Lord's Supper and Lutheranism can't be can't be denied and there's really very central in a very high view of both of those sacraments in addition Luther actually wasn't that interested in numbering the sacraments and neither were the Lutheran confessions so confession sits almost as a third sacrament and the reason the true he went to confession is links right at the end of his life yeah and we and the confession was practiced widely in the Lutheran Church well into the 20th century and some efforts have been made to revive it in addition there are allusions to a sacramental understanding of both marriage and ordination their minor but but they are there I think more to the point within the Lutheran tradition at its best God does indeed come to us through material means and so that aspect of sacramentality is very much there what isn't there in the way it is in the Catholic Church obviously is the range of the seven sacraments clearly identified and and celebrated and I think there was less of a view of what Catholics call sacramentals now all of those small material things through which God's blessing Grace and presence are known to us was it a couple the problems with Luther and that become a problem is one he wasn't very systematic hmm right so I mean we would have all owed him on any side of any issue right and that caused the problem yeah and so in many ways what came out of Luther that became Lutheranism were those who were making an effort to try and systematize what he had said all over the place one of my favorite books of Luther is a table talks of he's everywhere I'm not known that but I also wonder to what extent Luther's rejection of transubstantiation had to do with his own background that was kind of an anti Thomas yeah teaching that kind of set him off in the wrong direction because of his formation before his training before he even becoming a priest Luther felt that the philosophy of Aristotle had totally trumped Jesus Christ in the in the late medieval church and apparently as he was taught late scholastic theology that's what he perceived what he didn't perceive was that there might be some use in clear definitions of of the sort that that we see in the doctrine of transubstantiation and I think the rejection of that probably in some ways weakened Lutheran sacramentality and made it more open to two rather more subjective interpretations and so the Luther's vivid sense of the real presence including the real presence after the celebration of the sacrament so that you know the elements were consumed or carefully sequestered that faded and I think it faded in part because without a clear definition of what the presence is the notion of an enduring and abiding presence faded I mean I envision Luther in this tension between fighting against his understanding of Aquinas and transubstantiation fighting against that but yet at the same time defending the real presence against swingley and the other he's caught in between again but not being a systematic theologian not really leaving an answer that's right and in many ways Luther was his own Magisterium while he lived once he was gone holding the Lutheran movement together and holding together even some of the genius of his owns insights to say nothing of holding together his continuity with with the Catholic Church became much more difficult and finally I think in the end it was an impossible undertaking though all right took our first caller Steve from Washington hello what's your question for us tonight so you party there there I have a quick let's go the next email maybe we'll get Steve back do we have an email for us Andrew there we go let's see this comes from Adam dear mr. Kodai and father Klein you mentioned that Martin Luther conducted Marian devotions as a Lutheran I was intrigued with this could you please elaborate upon this also how were you able to overcome the Protestant problems with Marian devotion Thank You Adam for your email first I should clarify I don't know that we can say Luther conducted Mary and devotions I'm not aware of that at any point that he had a very high opinion of the Virgin Mary was the point that I was trying to make in terms of a hurdle I don't know that Mary was a big hurdle for me I had always a sense of the importance of her role in the story of salvation you can't miss it if you're paying attention and and that she ought to play a role in in Christian piety so that was always there I guess it was not for nothing that we named our eldest child Maria I remember the Lutheran growing up you know we'd have our huge nativity scene on the front with the statue of Mary you know but I was taught not to not to worship statues but there was a statue of Mary every Christmas so yeah I never thought of the conflict until later but Mary kind of disappeared after Christmas rightly not a part of yeah of our our devotion so let's see if we can get Steve again hello Steve from Washington what's your question for us yeah at the Catholic how do I respond to a Lutheran who doesn't believe the priest has authority to forgive sins through the sacrament of confession all right thank you Steve I would direct that Lutheran to the Lutheran Book of worship in which the the pastor announces that by his authority or her authorities and some Lutheran churches ordain women sins are being forgiven the Lutheran Church in fact teaches the authority of the clergy to absolve of course beyond that there are the the authority given in Matthew and the authority given in the Gospel of John when Jesus breathes upon upon the disciples and sends them forth to to forgive sin so I'd say direct your friend to the Bible and to the Lutheran Book of worship so it's really there in his Oates there is just there in his own tradition I guess I'd always assumed that there was a tension there since it seemed that Luther was was trying to downplay the priesthood that he was undercutting the foundation for confession and the sacramental nature of the mass because he was trying to downplay the priesthood is that it is that accurate I don't know if it's quite fair to say Luther was trying to downplay the role of the priesthood he was certainly trying to redefine it and and and his his real issue was was with the sacrifice of the mass for the earning of specific merit and at that point yes at that point he went after the priesthood very vigorously but in terms of the authority to preach to preside at the sacraments to forgive sins at that at that level Luther maintained a very high view of the priesthood let's take our next caller star from Michigan hello what's your question for us yes I have question in regard to my girlfriend who I love very much she is the sweetest and the kindest person you'd ever want to meet she's a Lutheran who it was originally Catholic she grew up Catholic she and her husband apparently after they were married went to counseling and the tongues there was either Lutheran or Baptist one I'm not sure and the first question out of his mouth to her was do you have a personal relationship with God and that sent her into searching and wondering because she said she didn't and she joined the Lutheran Church and it's very involved in the church and we've had some very very good conversations but I wonder if you might be able to give me a few more things that I could discuss with her thank you starting suppose it wouldn't hurt to grant it as a good thing that she has a more deep in personal relationship with the Lord now even if it came in a way that took her outside the Catholic Church one one would hope that as people come to understand what their relationship of the Lord is that it also implies and directly involves a relationship with this church and the issue then becomes well where do you find that in its fullest expression and I don't know that you can do much more than to to pray for her keep talking to her and be glad for where she is and maybe lead her back and one of the hardest things today I find especially I mean an awful lot of Reformation Christians who come from the traditions Reverend don't even think of themselves as a Reformation Christians anymore and then we have so many independent churches so many Christians today that don't think being saved means being a part of the church that you see themselves independently individually as that relationship to Jesus and that's where the the language of personal relationship which let us remember is not biblical can be a problem I don't have a personal relationship with Jesus apart from my relationship with my brother and sister Christians I don't have a personal relationship with Jesus apart from the Saints obviously it's profoundly personal and individual for each and every one of us but never can the personal exist even an ordinary life apart from our communal connections and never is it more important than in the body of Christ you cannot be Christian by yourself very good let's take our next email Mary from New York dear Marcus and father do you know Father whether many Lutheran pastors grapple with the concept of not being in the fullness of the church that Jesus began what was the outcome of that grappling many I guess that's the the word that's that's the most important obviously most I think do not most for a variety of reasons theological conviction being content where they are do not see the question of the fullness of the Catholic Church is any kind of challenge to them on the other hand significant numbers who perceive the the deeply churchly nature of the scriptures who look honestly and openly at the Accu medical situation and and who grapple with the ways in which some of the things are going off track in the Lutheran tradition many of these these people are grappling with the question of whether they should not in fact be Catholics a friend of mine recently moved into the church a few months ago others are in conversation with me sometimes I get surprises from around the country and within three weeks after my my ordination icon celebrated at the confirmation mass of of a Lutheran clergy couple so yeah there are significant numbers grappling with it but they would certainly be a minority I know that myself even though I've been to seminary even though I studied history there when I became a pastor in many ways I treated the history of the church as if there was a huge void from the apostles to Luther mm-hmm basically its way I treated things is that true amongst most Lutheran pastors Lutheran layeth um I think to a fair degree yes the the so called submarine theory the the gospel somewhere went under under the water in the early centuries only to resurface in the 16th century it shouldn't take a whole lot of reflection to say that will not do there's something wrong with that scheme and and so I think one of the challenges for thoughtful Protestants is where did those centuries go and what have you done with them is there anybody back there who's bearing witness to you do you do you have to pay attention to agustin or is it just because Luther and Calvin liked him that he's he's worthwhile I think in some ways one of the reasons for the for the doctrinal decay particularly in mainline Protestantism in this country is that loss of continuity lost a sense of continuity a they like to to wisecrack that it's a lot harder to ignore Agustin and Aquinas if you're invoking them in prayer all right let's take a quick break you know I'm back in a moment with more of your questions for father client welcome back we've got a few more emails for a father client let's go to this one this comes from a friend I think a father Alvin Kimmel Catholic priest and former Episcopal priest friend of yours right yes I says greetings father Kline how was your understanding of justification by faith change since becoming Catholic thank you it was probably changing a long time before I became Catholic the I think the the biggest change is that when luther's Lutheran's try to systematize Luther they what they do is they try to make the doctrine of justification by faith the single controlling issue in all theological discussion and that simply tends to hamstring and short circuit I think a lot of of the content of the scriptures the simple truth is you could enter the interpretation of the Christian faith from the doctrine of the Trinity or from the person of Jesus Christ equally well so it's not so much giving up the notion that that faith is central to our salvation but giving up the notion that that particular debate about the role of faith the debate conducted in eastern Germany in the early part of the 16th century is the be-all and end-all of Christian theology by the way I guess I would say that well before I became Catholic my reading of st. Paul made me think that the doctrine of justification wasn't necessarily so central to st. Paul as we said it was as preparing for a study of the letter to the Romans and on reading it settled this is a book about the unity of the church first of all about holding together the Jewish and Gentile factions in that community and justification by faith as it appears in the letter to the Romans serves that greater purpose of the unity of the church it's not the controlling issue we because I remember by running with that idea of really seeing this as the central issue of Luther and everything else you end up coming up with a plan a and a plan B in Romans you know in other words there's the Europe by works and then that's thrown out right and it's completely as this external imposition of God's grace nothing I'd do with it and yeah and there are a couple of real hazards that that flow from pushing that too far one is subjectivism while Luther's understanding of faith was not entirely subjective or personalistic at the same time once the focus becomes on faith the focus can very quickly become just on me and it turns away from Christ away from the church away from God to me and my feelings and of course that's a fairly short route from there to to jettison jettisoning the the whole of Christian substance for a kind of psychologize spiritual eyes nothing another dangers anti-semitism if law is bad and works are bad yeah there's some there's edible things that can flow from that all right so we get least one more email and this comes from Dan dear father client of Marcos I am a cradle Catholic it would help me in my struggle they put son quotes to understand except the real presence of the body blood soul and divinity of Jesus and the consecrated Eucharist would you please lead me in your process to accept the real presence in the Eucharist well we're talking about somebody who used to be a Lutheran so let me go to Luther first that's the easiest way to do it in this case and that's Luther writing in chalk when he was debating with swingley oh ho cast a enemy this is my body I think we start with the promise of Jesus Christ himself and don't start by worrying about whether how in what way for what reason Christ is present in the sacrament start with his promise his assurance and then maybe switch to the side of your need for his presence what you need he promises you our body and blood he comes to you as body and blood I mean one of the things that struck me so much coming out of a similar tradition in trying to deal with that sacrament having for so long taught it as nothing more than a symbol because I was a teaching as a Calvinist was the the call by Jesus on the one hand to abide in him John 15 and then seeing the only place where he teaches us how to abide and that's in John 6 mm-hmm you know if you eat my body drink my blood you abide in me and I in you I mean there it is the need for the sacrament so we can truly abide in him through his his presence we can move a little earlier in John 2 to John 1 and the word became flesh and tabernacled among us that's exactly plant really quickly an email from Robert Minneapolis how do most Lutheran clergy and all Protestants for that matter respond to the Catholic issue of apostolic succession and the implication for validity of the sacrament of the Eucharist and confession and other sacramental questions emphasized succession from Lutheran perspective most Lutheran's would simply reject the necessity but say that the never Himself rejected not not as aggressively as some of his followers I suppose would be fair to say but I think for many in the Protestant communions and Lutheran's would certainly fit in this category as well the authority comes simply from the word itself although the word is not always clearly identified and it just sort of floats around and rests so the question of authenticity and of authorization is I think largely mooted in those communities so when Luther ordained his first pastors they came or if he called him priests to pass for that and itself was a radical move yeah and I'm not sure whether Luther himself ever ordained or others did that's there are people who know that I never did get that that part of things clear but the the Lutheran's did tend to hold on to at least a sort of priestly success and and ordination was always done by by other clergy all right although it became trendy for a while to have the whole country in the 70s and 80s to have the whole congregation lay on hands and that was it so there was a notion among some Lutheran's that the of--the the office of of ministry was actually transferred from the congregation by vote or by gesture to the past what was growing didn't democracy yeah democratic understanding of theology that's so prevalent and so many of the mainline churches let's assume we've got some Lutheran's watching us tonight what any words to them of encouragement make the same journey you've made I've been thinking about this one all day as has been clear I think from what I've said I am NOT here railing against Luther and the Reformation but I think the intention which every thoughtful Lutheran knows was to reform the church looked at from that point of view the Reformation failed except of course it did kick off the Catholic Reformation did reformed the church but as an effort to reform the universal Church the Lutheran Reformation did not succeed the question then arises is there a reason to continue this ISM and I would say to my friends maybe there isn't anymore hahaha so come home please examine the fullness of the church father remaining couple moments could we have a blessing from sure Lord God send your Holy Spirit upon your people upon all who listen upon all who are open to learning the goodness of your grace and glory and the love of your son may Almighty God bless you the father and the Son and the Holy Spirit thank you very much father Klein for joining us and and for your pastor works still in in Wilmington Delaware right yes okay fine thank you for joining us I hope this has been an encouragement to you especially encouragement you to pray for our brothers and sisters outside the church and help them to just to live out the fullness of their faith but to be drawn to the fullness of the faith here in the Catholic Church god bless you see you next week Oh

Channel: EWTN

Views: 46,504

Rating: 4.7030015 out of 5

Keywords: Catholic, EWTN, Christian, television, Lutheranism (Religion), Pastor, JHT01124

Id: 60flPv89WNM

Length: 54min 26sec (3266 seconds)

Published: Wed Jan 21 2015