Tom Cabeen: A Jehovah's Witness Who Became Catholic - The Journey Home (5-19-2008)

good evening and welcome to the journey home my name is Marcus Grodi your host for this program and I will say it's great to be back we just got back from a couple weeks in Scandinavia taping special journey home programs from Stockholm and in Oslo and I hope you'll keep watching and look forward to seeing those wonderful both journey home programs as well as some great roundtable discussions and we'll have those in the future while I was gone I know you had a chance to see some of the programs from England and so I hope you enjoyed those and I hope they were encouragement to your faith our guest tonight is Tom to be former Jehovah Witness he's going to share his journey of faith both out of the Jehovah Witness faith to Jesus and then of all things to the Catholic Church we'll talk about that in a moment but a reminder you're an essential part of the program so if you'd like to give us a call you can do so at one eight hundred two two one nine four six Oh outside North American calls at 205 271 twenty nine eighty or you can send us an email the journey home at ewtn.com Tom welcome the journey home you Marcus thank you great to have you here you know we just met we just met about a year ago right when we're having that little coming home network that's right gathering out and robbing that road I'll be you didn't probably realize at that time you might end up by also I didn't know it's a big surprise to me to get an invitation I was very happy to get it I'm glad you're here because I know that a lot of our audience are confronted with Java witnesses and stopped by the door or drive up like in our case out in their country a carload of seven people in a car that you only hold for you drive up and they got to share the rod in that car you know what I speak so I know the audience is very interested plus I know there are people watching her former Jehovah Witnesses and I know you have a lot of encouragement to say to them well that's really my my gold marcasite I really have a strong heart for these people I love them very much I know that they're very sincere and I know that many of them many are searching and well I would like to share something that I found that was a wonderful thing and I think that's why why I yeah in the program tonight so and the journey home we always kind of take a big step back and and let the audience know where you came from how you became a job witness in the first place well I'd be happy to tell you I was actually brought up in the Jehovah's Witness faith I my parents became witnesses when I was three and I grew up believing the doctrines and teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses to be absolutely true it's all you knew and I like all of us except most of us accept the teachings and beliefs of our parents to be true and I did exactly the same as I got older I decided to volunteer for the headquarters of Jehovah's Witnesses I became what they call a pioneer a full-time minister and when you see headquarters is that the one was in New York in Brooklyn yeah Brooklyn Brooklyn New York so really that is volunteering for the epicenter that was that was and I worked as a door-to-door minister full-time minister for about a year and then I was invited to come and serve on the headquarter staff it was like a great thing for me I was so happy and I threw myself into the work and I felt a a second thing that I did when I first came to the headquarter staff as I resolved to truly learn my faith I had learned it like many children learn from their their parents they kind of I knew what everything to do by rote but I didn't really know the underpinnings of my faith so I began to study it very very seriously and it's always time went on I had two things happen I had a tremendous amount of success at the headquarters within a few years I was a in charge of their web press room their printing operations which is a very very important part of what they do and that's not most of us are familiar with exactly the printing of the watchtower and awake I'd actually run the watchtower press for a long time and then I became the supervisor of a number of presses and then I became the supervisor of the entire department when I was in my 20s and that was a very very unusual thing I think I replaced a man that was in the 60s and another thing that happened is as I learned more and more about Watchtower doctrines and teachings I began to have more and more questions about them I was trying to make them to fit them into a whole consistent logical whole and and and to fit them in with the real world and I I really sincerely tried to live my faith and that I was going to ask you about that puzzle bit because a majority of the audience like like me know very little about the ins and outs of what happens in that little and that little building down the corner we know about the watchtower little magazine but even as you described into your 20s in your involvement there it seemed like this faith is all about it information it is that's true in fact it's there's a great focus on what they call knowledge knowing God and it is about knowing things explanations of things I really honestly never learned how to worship it's as one of us or worship is the prayer the meetings are much more like sales meetings in a sense than they really are like worship services there's never any kneeling or things that we would connect with a worship yes spending time there there are songs that are sung the songs are more like work songs and they are like a sacred music but I don't want to minimize that they do it with all sincerity and they do it with the in fact years and years ago the the hymns were actually hymns from other denominations that they just read redid the lyrics but the other words to them but then they began to write their own so learning the faith in a deep way you're saying does it also mean like growing in holiness is there any sense of that it's more of an understand understanding their their doctrinal explanations you build this sort of framework of their understanding of how things are and essentially in a nutshell their understanding is that the faith was introduced in the first century and then it the entire church went apostate until the 20th century basically and then a small group of people rediscovered the faith and just in time for God to come and destroy the all the wicked people and bring them and make them the core of a new 144,000 and and and the ones that are going to live on the earth but those people that are looking going to live on the earth will be the core of a whole new society that will begin after God has destroyed all the wicked people and so as I think it so really it's about that knowingness information but yeah you were it's interesting that was the lynchpin for you in a way that really it was you saw things that did well I really believed this idea that the world was going to end and in fact I thought that as it was taught back in the late 60s that it would be ending around 1975 and I believed it really with all my heart but when things didn't happen in 1975 the world didn't end and I began to question more and more of the things that were taught there and eventually I got got my hands on a letter from a witness elder from Sweden a man named Karl Olaf Johnson who researched the historical basis for the witnesses teaching that the the Gentile times ended in 1914 which is a very very fundamental part of their entire doctrinal scheme and he completely destroyed it that I read the letter over and over and over again I didn't want it to be true because it would really take take down I can see where I was going but the evidence was just irrefutable so I accepted it and then with that I knew that I would at some point part ways with Jehovah's Witnesses did what is in a measure to parties continue with your work well I wasn't sure what was going to happen I knew that that I would continue to to learn but I did make a decision like to my wife and she has been such a doll through all this and she's been such a great Christian he was also support she was brought up from time she was eight as a Jehovah's Witness and she is always also a member of the headquarter staff she had volunteered there and we were married there at Brooklyn and so we had talked about things she comes at things sometimes I'm a different direction than I do and from her experiences of her sense of things being right in terms of the way people were treated and things like that she she was really when I told her well I think we need to leave she said right hallelujah already so she had sensed that that we needed to do that so we we left the headquarters in 1980 and I I just wanted to know what was true that's really where I where I was headed and so I wasn't sure many about the doctrines of Jehovah's Witnesses I knew that the the chronology was wrong but I wasn't sure about the rest of the the teaching so I what I really wanted to just know anybody else was either right oh I really didn't alright so I began to buy commentaries my first commentary was Barnes notes again to Presbyterian commentary I love this guy Barnes oh I begin to read it and I was very impressed with how much this man knew about the Bible I was just the so I began to buy other commentaries and I bought I spent hundreds and hundreds of dollars on commentaries I began to read them and people knew that I was interested they gave me commentaries and then I began to discover another problem and that was that you could read a one person's commentary and an explanation of the scripture and it seems so logical and seemed so so right and then you'd read somebody else's be just as logical and just as consistent but it came to a different conclusion this was this was a problem so eventually what happened we were out of the witnesses for about of the headquarter staff for about a year and a half and the elders called us into a meeting and they asked some questions ultimately to find out whether or not he believed that the watchtower organization was God's exclusive organization and I just couldn't confirm that I said he is God I don't really know what he's doing and I'm certainly not going to say he's this is the only place that he could ever have worked so we were disfellowship now you might think of disfellowshipping is a little bit like excommunication but it's actually a lot worse because it involves shunning and so in one fell swoop we lost our families we were we were actually basically disowned from our families on both sides and and our friends so it was a it was a rather traumatic time rather emotional time but but we decided to move on and as I struggled with these doctrinal issues I sort of put them on the background for a while and began to associate with some evangelical Christians and focus on Christian living and I actually became for for quite some time quite anti organizational I felt that the organization in itself was was the problem when you came out of jail witnesses and now you're testing the waters of evangelicalism had you had a faith in Christ in that transition you know did what did you come out of jail witness I really in relationship to Jesus Christ in God I really had my leaving witnesses had much more to do with with identifying a problem with their theology than it did coming to know Jesus Christ and and so it was it was while I was associated with evangelicals that I began to really understand the the importance of a relationship with Christ and and I began to have the faith in the divinity of Christ I could see that very clearly in Scripture and so I owe a great debt to the dear Baptist that I had that I worshiped with for really introducing to me the concept of a close relationship with Christ but I as time went on I had to seem to be forced to to narrow down the doctrinal framework of my understanding of Christ I always wanted more I wanted to know everything about Christ that I knew that there had to be more to it than Jesus loves me this I know for the Bible tells me so what do you mean by narrowing down well when you sit down and discuss various issues like you would think some some of these things would be very simple like God should we be baptized and you can talk to one pastor and he says it's sure you should be baptized and you can talk to another pastor and he looks at the scripture and says believe in the Lord Jesus and you'll be saved so you don't have to be and I and I say well why did Jesus tell us go go make disciples and baptize them so this was so you would remember the narrowing down of the what is essential essential doctrine baptisms pushed outside of that because you have conflicting views maybe is it essential or not a lot of things you only end up with that you said Jesus loves you and that's it that's it that's it and so I was not extremely upset by this situation I was really focused on practical Christianity learning how to do things like forgive one another and get along as Christians and I I was also quite focused on trying to help former Jehovah's Witnesses and this is another really essential part of this this story I started a we started my wife and I started a support group after sort of shortly after we left the witnesses and we were studying with a number of former witnesses and always our discussions would end up talking about problems with a watchtower society and finally we got to a point where we said we don't want to talk about problems of the watchtower society anymore we want to move on and learn some truths about Christ so that's really where we began to to study with a church and and then we joined this community and and the the relationship or the the situation within the church was that we learned to really get along with other Christians we learned how many wonderful devout people there are out there in the evangelical community and I suppose in others we happen to settle in that in community and and so I I was we were very happy about that we also started a support ministry a group a group of former witnesses started the ministry together called the VRC I biblical research and commentary international and we published all kinds of materials and we had a toll-free number that people could call who were leaving the witnesses to help them sort of we thought about a little bit like the Underground Railroad give him a hug and pat him on the back and help them to heal their wounds but one of the problems is that many many of Jehovah's Witnesses become agnostics and the they they have it took me a long time to figure out what the problem was and the problem was really I believe that they are so focused on what isn't true they're looking at various religions and they're seeing this not true and this not true and this not true that it's very difficult for them to focus on what is true and so they get this sort of negative perspective on matters and they lose faith in in politicians they lose faith and doctors they lose faith and all clergymen and and when they lose faith in the watchtower society they don't have faith in anything they don't they don't have anything to hold on to is every much would you say is what commonly happens in the meetings that you would have me the meeting is I focus on trying to teach you how to present the publications door-to-door there and that way they're sort of like sales meetings and then there's a there's a meeting in which that you are taught how to teach they call it the the ministry school in which they teach you how to read the scriptures and they it's a pretty good school it I mean they teach you some things about how to do public speaking and things like that I was wondering this negativism which I think your description of that is really fascinating that you have an entire faith in many ways that's based on pointing out the negatives of everybody else I wonder where did that come into play that comes right out of the watchtower publications and on their their main meeting where what what Catholic would consider a mass or what other we consider their worship service is the study of the Watchtower magazine and in the Watchtower magazine there's this continual reinforcement of things are bad this religion is wrong and we're the right the right ones and you can't really trust anybody but us and the other religious and it was about your witnesses there's nothing left at all that happens very very often to their credit some ex witness has become evangelical Christians but a large number of them become agnostics to some extent or other so I was in the Baptist Church and I was writing an article for the for the witnesses and I was interested in in helping them to in to get involved with some church just get involved with other people be part of a Christian community of faith community is an essential part to living as a Christian I knew this to be true but as time went on I began to read I in fact my goal was to tell them how the early Christians had really actually worshipped so I could show them that that it wasn't like Java so it was more like the evangelical Christians that's really was my goal so I started to read these writings and I had a good friend named David verso who had become sort of an expert on the early church and I said David what what can I read will tell me what the early Christians believed he said so he referred me to a bunch of history books and the anti-icing fathers and I began to read these books this is a very condensed version of a long story but I began to read these books and I was just astounded at the things that I was reading here were people who had this rich full robust faith in it and it was it was had so much information about Christ and about who he was and what he had done there their explanation of the atonement was so much fuller it wasn't like everyone else was wrong about it but there was just so much more so many aspects so many facets to it that I had never heard of before so I began to read these these writings and I begin to read his historical documents just plain old history books about the early Christians as time went on I fell in love with this faith that that they had and I was so sad that it was not around anymore that what had happened to this beautiful faith had existed and so as it turned out there was a sort of a falling-out between myself and the pastor of the church that we happen to and it was over a doctrinal issue and it it was one in which I felt there was a very very very clear testimony in the early church about this issue and and so I discussed it with him but at the end of the day it was I'm the pastor of the church and you know I can't have somebody not teaching my perspective on matters in the church so I had been teaching a Sunday School there for about 10 or 12 years and maybe 14 years and Wow and and I was an elder and I was very involved with the church and and so I found myself sort of on the outs again so I had David had recommended me the the Anglican Church so I said I'm going to try these Episcopalians out so I went to the Episcopal chairs it was an Episcopal Church about a block away from my office I went down there and I began to I sat down with wonderful pastor Reverend Andy Osman wonderful man and I told him I told him my problem I said I want to find out about this religion and so I went and began to associate with them this was the first exposure I had ever had to liturgical worship and I was just thrilled by it a night and this was very much like the early church there was a lot of respect for the early church among the Anglicans so I was there for a couple of for about a year and I began to notice that a lot of the people that whose writings I had read to acquaint me with the Anglican Church Thomas Howard for example had become Catholics and I thought no why would they become Catholics and just about this time I was reading I happened to go to a used book sale and I got a copy of the Catholic catechism for 50 Cent's and and I said you know I'm gonna just find out what these Catholics believe in so I sat down I started reading as I said holy smokes I'd become a Catholic I didn't even know it I saw all my friends there I uh Ignatius and in the clement of alexandria and and and all of the same beliefs and structure that was there that i had read about in the early church was right there in the catholic church so i I said well I really have to do some serious serious investigation here and so I began to continue to read and study and I had a few problems of course with some of the doctrines that I were unfamiliar to me I didn't know anything about the doctrine about Mary and I'm radically different not only from Joba with us but even from about on the the evangelical world but I was I was very very convinced that if I was looking for truth that God would not mislead me that he would guide me where I ought to be and so I ended up June 9th 2006 my wife and I were received into the show your wife made this the same during at the same time she she did and yet I was very careful not to try to convince her to become a Catholic because I wanted to become a Catholic and so I knowing that she is a very devout woman and a very intuitive person i i simply shared a few things with her and i prayed that if it was the right thing for us to do that she would come to that conclusion on her own and one night we were laying there in bed and she simply said to me you know we should become Catholics and so i said okay there's my side now you still involved with this unique ministry to the former joe witnesses i am involved with them although i am becoming more involved with a new ministry dr. jeff schwim who was on the show here with you a couple of years ago i believe and a number of us who were former witnesses are uniquely qualified to help to homes witnesses we know how they think we all have a great heart for them I know that there are many wonderfully devout people among them and and also among even the magical world in which we were so we are going to reaching out we have an apostolate for Catholic Catholic a former we call it Catholic X jws for the former job as witnesses and we're going to be having a conference later this summer and in August we'll tell you more about that little bouquet after the break maybe we don't even put to the we know we have phone calls and emails let me take a break right now and we'll come back with your questions for Tom see it you you welcome back to the journey home as a we've had a fine talk with Tom keen for convene foreigner former Java witness sorry we've got a lot of phone calls and emails before we get to that we mentioned a little bit about your conference coming up yes we have a conference coming up this this summer it's a welcome-home conference and it specifically for people who are interested in helping java's witnesses or jehovah's witnesses who are catholics who might be interested in becoming catholics this will be in a wharton West Virginia on August 1st through the 3rd so you can get on to the catholic x JW comm website and there's information you can register for it and we if you're interested in that that would be a wonderful wonderful this is not so much a conference for Jehovah Witnesses to come to pretty much is for those who are X Jehovah Witnesses Harasta Catholic correct and who might be interested in the Catholic Church and but who have an interest in helping Jehovah's Witnesses to to understand the Catholic faith all right very good all right let's take our first email bill from Wisconsin dear mr. cabin seems to me that you all the witnesses like many quote fringe sects are particularly anti-catholic more so than they are say anti mainline Protestant what are your thoughts on this and what might this say about the steadfast integrity of Catholic doctrine in the face of fanaticism discord and schism first of all from your experience Tom it comes from Bill in Wisconsin is it true that Joe woods is tend to be more anti-catholic than I think that is true yes Jehovah's Witnesses have a doctrine in which Babylon the Great represents all false religion but particularly Christendom and of Christendom particularly Catholicism and so there is a stronger and I think it's because the Catholic Church is a big target went once you begin to take on Protestant churches you have these a lot of smaller targets Catholic churches large highly visible it's an easy target so and he was wondering about what it says about the steadfastness of the integrity of the doc I actually personally at this point I don't think that there's a much of a link between Jehovah's Witnesses and Catholic doctrine at all I think that the Catholic doctrine because I am a Catholic is steadfast because it's the truth and it belongs to Christ and he's protecting it and will always protect it no matter what happens but Jehovah's Witnesses see themselves as being a fairly formidable adversary but they're not they're very small and you had mentioned the fact that the emphasis seems to be amongst your Witnesses on the negatives of others so it may be that most religious don't even know Catholic doctrine it's virtually a certainty almost none of them really understand Catholic doctrine Jehovah's Witnesses do focus on what is wrong in fact I remember one thing if I had think I can say a brief incident reading this a number of years ago I came across a quote from a Jewish sage and philosopher from the 11th century named Solomon eben gobby dole is from Spain and he said a fool rejoices when he discovers error a wise man rejoices when he discovers truth it had a big effect on me and I said what I'm going to do is not try to find out what's wrong I want to find out what's right what's true and that really had a good a good effect on really kind of guides even your work now with former Java witnesses who may certainly does anything exactly I encourage them to reach out and look for things that are true because all truth is is an expression of Christ alright Don thank you let's take our first caller this is al in California hello al what's your question for us tonight all right they're out well well let's wait what maybe we'll get out a little bit as I can't hear al right now or if we have another email ready maybe while they're getting L can I see another email here my staff we got here we go we're getting the next email all right this comes from Adam in Wisconsin dear Tom I was hoping that you could describe the worship services of the Jehovah Witnesses what are they like how many are there over the course of the week how do they compare to Evangelical Protestant services do they recognize sacraments and it's a lot of questions in there but first you know we talked a little bit about this but what's the s usual worship service have you gonna call it that well they've had a big change just in the last couple of weeks actually for many many years they had what they called a book study and they'd study one of the books that was held in a private home and then they would have this was done on one evening typically a Tuesday evening and on a Thursday evening there were two more additional meetings and those two meetings are called the service meeting and a ministry school one is a school that teaches you how to do the two to speak publicly and the other one is kind of a sales meeting telling you how to send the the place the literature out in that field and then on Sundays they have a public talk which is just a lecture and then the study of their main publication which is the watchtower stuff is it geared for newcomers no it's geared for four witnesses and in fact they have a special edition of the watchtower just for themselves that to study that in which they study watchtower doctrine very very thoroughly witnesses do not recognize sacraments they don't they don't have any sacramental element within their doctrines and teachings and I've forgotten what the other one is well again is it like evangelical worship rings yeah as no it's not really like the things that you would connect with worship they connect their worship with going on in the field service and that's why they come to your door on Sunday morning are they taught to pray they do pray but the prayers are not the kinds of prayers that an evangelical they're not so much worshipful prayers as petitions they're mostly petitions asking God for four things hmm all right let's see we get Allegan el in California are you there I am there now you hear me hell yes I'm here there you go do we finally got to great what's your question for us tonight okay well hi Marcus and Tom I worked with Legion of Mary and we go out each week door-to-door and do evangelizing and work and I come across people of all faiths recently I talked to a Jehovah Witness and we had a long talk but he wants to continue to talk he wants to convert me I'm sure my question is this by the way also I work with coming home network as a helper oh good but my question is what what questions should I ask him that would plant seeds that may grow later and also what documentation what kind of publications or anything should I take with me I have access to all kinds of apologetic and evangelization materials what kind of information should I take with me to offset some of the things he's liable to be bring up all right hey thanks a lot for your call thank well your work I mean god bless you that's a great question now I wish I could say that there was a silver bullet I wish there was something that you could say to them and so I'm going to tell you with experience the greatest thing that we've found to help a Jehovah's Witness is prayer that should be number one and then a focus on the truth what is true in terms particularly of our relationship with Christ find out what they believe about Christ there are I can't I wish I could give you some some publications that you could give them but I have to tell you that there until the Holy Spirit softens them their hearts and they and they are seeking you are likely to lock horns with them so be gentle with them you will not gain much by fighting with them or arguing with them I would suggest that the best thing you can do is to is to pray for them and to and to encourage them to fit their doctrines into a a realistic worldview and part of it is that they're really caught up in this negative outlook towards any other source of authority that even you trying to say something to them exactly you're immediately going to get drop into that other category negative someone they can't trust but prayer is really the grazing that the hen and it has brought many many people to faith all right God thank you out for your question let's go to our next email this is Carl anyways dear Marcus and guests the Jehovah Witnesses do not believe in the divinity of Christ true what do you think about the holy what do they think about the Holy Spirit do they believe that there is a new quote end of the world date end quote after the problems with their 1975 prophecy failure thanks Carl we have at least three questions in there number one the divinity of Christ way they do not believe in the divinity of Christ who is Jesus Jesus is in their thinking an angel in fact they actually believe that Jesus is the Archangel Michael and they believe that the Holy Spirit is so they believe in angels they do believe in angels all right that but angels are created creatures they're creatures not divine and in terms of the Holy Spirit they believe the Holy Spirit is isn't is God's active force that it is an impersonal force not a person other person correct and in terms of their date setting I don't want to tell you right there was an earlier oh there 75 was not by any means the first one the first one was actually 1914 and that's now the beginning of their of their dates they period but I don't know I actually don't follow their date setting that much anymore and I don't know if they have any real I'm pretty sure that they don't have any actual date but they may be searching for another date indicating that the end is quite near that's a very prominent part of their doctrine things are going to winding roads and that isn't just true of them I mean it's true of even the the evangelical groups that are very less or a tracker and all that I mean you know I the book I remember having a book 88 reasons while he's coming in 88 yes to come up with another book in 89 and yeah I mean he just kept going on and on how Lindsay the late great planet Earth had a big effect on evangelical Christianity in that way oh yeah yeah he had to do other books when think solutely that's a big business let's take our next caller Joe in New York hello Joe what's your question for us I'm Marcus interesting show I think um I was wondering in the the Bible according to the Jehovah's Witnesses they have a hundred and forty four thousand people reaching heaven now if that's the case when this this religion first started doesn't it make sense that 144,000 people were on the earth and they're all in heaven at once you know rather than overtime you know I'd like for your guests to answer me I'm not sure Joe well understanding the the Jehovah's Witness doctrine is a little complicated but essentially the idea is that the number of 144,000 represents in their theology those who are going to go to heaven at the time that Jehovah's Witnesses started they were called the the International Bible students there were only about twenty thousand of them when they were teaching this and so it seemed right that there might have been with them and others who thought like them all the way stretching back to the days of the Apostles they might add up to 144,000 but as they got up in their own numbers getting close to 144,000 they realized that that wasn't going to work so their second president Rutherford came up with the idea that there was another group a great crowd and so that's how the witnesses got this very unusual idea that only a small group was going to heaven and everybody else was going to live here on the earth that which is what they teach now you know a lot of these groups like the Joe witnesses and Millerites the even the Mormons all kind of had their roots back in the early 1800s about a similar period and also at a time when some of the secret societies were gaining yes in power where you end up where there is a wider group of membership that only have a certain limited knowledge of the bigger picture but there's a smaller group that have a unique understanding in potential power is that truth Joel witnesses yes very much so there there's actually some very interesting information about reading a book right now by a man named professor Nathan hat called the democratization of American Christianity and it's about the the phenomenon that happened in the United States where it actually happened in medicine and law and in religion where there seemed to be just sort of a complete disregard for the need for education and that was resolved by the American Medical Association in the American Bar Association but but in the field of religion that kind of stayed out and there was a huge huge number of religions that sprang up primarily in the United States in the 19th and the 20th century the Miller rights were actually a movement within evangelical Christianity but but they did influence the Java's witnesses in the 7th day of it because you have the 144,000 and the rest of us yes that's exactly I have this unique understanding and a lot of people at least the ones that I want to be generalists about this but most of the job witnesses that have made it out to my farm out little know where my time they got their 8 people in a car should only hold for they don't know their faiths all that well it's like you said they're a Salesman they've got something to give me that's about as much as they know about their faith and that's true that's true when you really engage them about the faith many of them have a hard time really explaining it because it's learned more by rote than by really fitting into it into a large that's what that was my undoing trying to understand it logically all right let's take this next email Susan from Pennsylvania dear Marcus and Tom I have two questions is there any publication of the watchtower that clearly defines all of their teachings in one place like our catechism my section is more it seems that the job witness position on Jesus is their weakest link they claim that he is really Michael the Archangel but produce very little evidence of this how did you defend this teaching as a witness and is the truth of who Jesus is the key to conversion Thank You Susan for that yes thank you Susan uh well is there collection of teachings like the catechism they I think that probably the closest thing might be a book but it's kind of like a Bible encyclopedia that is called insight on the scriptures they that might be something of that nature and they and they do have another book called reasoning on the scriptures that sort of gives their proof texts but it's important to know that that witnesses don't look at their doctrines in the same way that the Catholic Church looks at at her teachings and so there's a there's a fundamental difference in approach the the Catholic Church sees the teachings as but having been handed down and so you can see this documentation all through history for what the Catholic Church is believed Java's witnesses change enough so that if you look at their publications from 40 years ago many many things that are in there will not be said because they're focusing on pointing out the flaws and others so you know the new flaw Rises they've got a new response it may be or it may be a response to it just doesn't fit reality I think things change and if they teach that the for which they did that the explanation of prophecy the king of the north and the King of the South was with Soviet Russia when the Soviet Union collapses then oops oops go up with a new explanation that's thinking like the medical issues or or celebration of Christmas or some of the different things birthdays I mean there they have clear rules against that but usually it's it really is a response to rejecting what other people yes and and it is a there's a strong desire to be separate they are separatists in that way it to be different from other religions okay our phone call Linda from New York hello Lou what's your question yes hi Marcus I learned so much from your show but I also am on journey home and I all be at Jehovah Witness when I was younger I got involved later on in the event evangelical type of non-denominational churches Pentecostalism and so on I'm looking into the Catholic Church now and my question was for your guests did you ever have an obstacle to setting foot in the Catholic Church for the first time as far as the issue with the idol as far as like Mary and the Saints I think to have a little bit of a problem with that can you shed any light on you and your experience with it all and a great question thing yes it was a wonderful question actually I had no such problem at all because of the nature of my own search I had I had done so much research and I we were attending we were part of it the the Episcopal parish and oddly enough we we studied RCIA with our local priest but the first time we actually even attended Mass at our church was the day that we were confirmed and so we I was dying to get into the church but I stayed in to sing with the choir at our other church and and so the the issues although you raised a very good question Susan and many jumpers witnesses have a problem with confusing veneration for example with worship and I think it's because of the fact that the Javas witnesses do not actually worship to the extent in the fullness of what other religions including a Catholic which really the Catholic Church has so many different ways to worship but witnesses have a sort of a narrowness about them and so it's sometimes very difficult for them to understand the difference between veneration and worship and they would have been like Linda was saying would have been taught in a negative sense Catholics worship those not idols you know quote idols worship those statues worship Mary worship that's a negative it's always a negative I'm not really helping them understand authentic worship and in fact they have a very tendency not to listen to Catholics say no we're not worshiping they if you tell a Catholic are you telling Joe is witness look we're not worshipping these idols oh yes you are worshiping the idol that say and they'll try to produce some proof that you really are worshiping because they believe that we're blind yes enterings well first of all Linda I think it was I think was Linda you're in our prayers Linda you're on a journey and you've got a website or something again for her she's a extra of witness yes I'll go thinking of the Catholic Chur to the Catholic xjw website and you will find some information of a support and help and we're so glad that you called let's see we have another caller or an email let's not we're going to email here this is from looks like Debbie from California dear moccasin Tom my limited experience is that there was little room for biblical discussion with the Java witness because of the new world translations with certain passages changed eg pointing to divinity of Jesus should one attempt any discussion from Scripture well certainly discussions of Scripture are apropos always but you should be aware that all translations have certain limitations to them but Jehovah's Witnesses are slanted in their translation is slanted in the variant certain teachings that they have particularly John 1:1 has been transmitted strands lated they translated as the beginning was the word and the Word was with God in the word was a God they've added the word a there and there are other passages but there are equally good passages that that can be used to prove the divinity of Christ was one in Philippians that's very very good that can be used to that the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily in him so that really says that yeah so Christ is divine she's alluding to the fact that if you have this group that they have their own Bible I guess is again given your description they would probably negative about any other translation that's very possible although many of them are quite open to other translations they're not all against using anything but their own but I will say again that if a if a Jehovah's Witness comes to your door to convert you probably he or she is not going to be very open to being converted all right I think we got another caller here see this is John and Florida hello John what's your question for Marcus and Tommy yes I have a question and because I have a lot of success with Jehovah Witnesses and their convert the question I have is that I'm trying to get this boson thing off oh sorry John underline that real quick like the ear feedback and but I'm trying to say that when they come I listen to them and then I asked them to tape when they try to give me the watchtower I say yes I'll take it and also if they have a biblical deal that I think is that has merit I answer it and use them many times to my advantage and I finally get some of them into the house and I do use the the Magisterium I asked them where their documentation is and I floor some of them you know on this and I mean in a nice one and I always tell them to go in peace and I asked the question is are they trained not to take material no I don't believe that they are trained and not to take material I think the problem that you would have with them is interest their interest in in the material however I would say this that if you are able to talk to them you should continue to talk to them and help them because the main thing that we always need to remember with regard to to all people our goal is to gain them they are not our enemy our enemy is the devil and he has misled people of all kinds and so we must always remember that treat them with the greatest gentleness and care because they are God's people is when you say gain them it's not scalps on our belt it's that they might have the fullness of faith for their salvation I was raised in a sacrifice that's we want them to have that's why this programs here so that they the fullness of faith and you had mentioned to me off the air that you know conversion you never know what God will use in someone's life to bring about conversion that's why you'd said earlier prayer was the most important thing so this gentleman with his love for these people sharing in the dialog that's wonderful because you never know what God might use in the midst of a dialogue that'd be the one little seed that might open our that's exactly right there are so many ways in which we can share the faith and and it's so vast and that's why a community of faith is such an important thing it's a marvelous thing we have an email here Maria from Alabama dear Margaret and guess what do Jehovah Witnesses believe about abortion and contraception abortion they are absolutely anti-abortion that they are Pro contraception that's right and so and it's because that that's a very good very very good question and it's very interesting that it was not until I became really familiar with the Catholic faith that I could begin to see the entire theology of life that underpins the Catholic understanding of the relationship between the sexes that that the contraception is part of the great theology of the sacredness of life but Jehovah's Witnesses they allow contraception and actually encourage contraception but not abortion they are anti abortion is it because they has some kind of systematic theology or philosophy behind it or I don't I never just heard anything I looked at on whether they connect although me was end of times thinking it could be yes I know that that the end time shortens my support is murder contraception we got the end coming soon so well I mean that might be their lifeline I will say this they are against the contraception like the intrauterine devices that that would actually cause an abortion but things that would be barrier type methods of contraception they are not against was Mary a big hurdle you I mean where was Mara thinking as a if Jesus is an angel but of course by the time I was even considering the Catholic Church I had left all of that far far behind years and years behind what I mean Mary was it was it was a difficult type of thing for me until I began to read the early the early Christians and then once I begin to understand how it is that Mary fit into the the whole recapitulation of mankind the writings of Irenaeus were excellent on that I'm going to call her sandy in South Dakota hello what's your question my question tonight is how does Tom feel now about voting not being involved in the military not taking part in community cleanup days and generally being involved with general public alright thank you thank you very much that's an excellent question you know as a Jehovah's Witness my basic idea was that the whole world was evil and wicked and that God was going to basically wipe everybody but Jehovah's Witnesses off the earth in a very short time and we were going to rebuild a new a whole new world but now I can see that Christ entered the world and built a church and this church has been changing the world for 2,000 years I now see that the entire underpinnings of Western civilization have come from the Catholic Church the Catholic Church built Western civilization and so my feelings about how we should be involved in changing the world are very different and they're very much in line with what the Catholic Church and what Catholics have been doing for for centuries and centuries but against more much more positive view than the other which was a Natalie and God so loved the world he said absolutely there's the emphasis if we can really do things that's maybe a good way to close the program let's say we have a Jehovah Witness watching or maybe a next show of witness well let's say we got Jehovah Witness watching what would you like to say to them to encourage them to make the same journey of me what I would say is trust that God will lead you to truth look for truth you don't have to immediately start reading Catholic publications but have the faith that God will lead you to to him that he will lead you to truth pray find out about the history of the church I find I found that to be very very helpful talk to people learn about everything that you learn about life is actually learning something about Christ everything true that everything Christ built he built the whole world it will lead us to him and so I would suggest that rather than looking at things that are wrong and what is wrong with everything look for what is right and as time goes on you will build within you a faith and trust particularly I would say this to you if you are feeling betrayed like many former witnesses are and you and you want to know the truth don't be afraid to search and don't be afraid to believe that God will guide you he truly will if they want to get in touch with you Tom how can they do that I am website or I don't have a person who can okay oh that's the safe way I'm diligent but you can go to what's the other website you mentioned the other website is though as a WWE Catholic xjw comm there you go so you know so you kind of anyone's interests you can go to that website and get in touch with men who can help as well as as you Tom thank you for sharing case I'm very winded up for inviting me get Marcus thanks beverage god bless you thank you so very much thank you for joining us on the journey home cop last season you

Channel: EWTN

Views: 165,423

Rating: 4.7211537 out of 5

Keywords: Catholic, EWTN, Christian, television, Jehovah's Witnesses (Religion)

Id: LvjYq6drTl0

Length: 56min 24sec (3384 seconds)

Published: Tue Jan 13 2015