Follow Him Podcast: Episode 38, Part 2–D&C 102-105 with guest Dr. Scott Woodward | Our Turtle House

welcome to part two of this week's podcast it's interesting uh as they start to go out to recruit in fact that's what verses 29 30 and then over verse 37 38 39 40. the lord puts him in companionships of recruiting companionships there's eight eight men that are going to go out and recruit people for this uh for this uh expedition they'll call it the camp of israel later on we call it zion's camp but they originally called it the camp of israel and uh in their recruiting they came across one wilford woodruff he was already a member of the church but he was being recruited to to join this expedition and i wanted to share a thought from wilford woodruff he said this he said that as he was sort of settling his uh business affairs and preparing to to join the camp of israel some of his friends and neighbors warned him not to go not not to undertake such a hazardous journey they they said do not go if you do you will lose your life and that's the exact phrase that the lord just said here right lose your life for my say or lay down lay down your land uh here's how wilford woodruff replied he said quote if i knew that i should have a ball put through my heart the first step i took in the state of missouri i would go that's that's all that's discipleship right there the lord says uh you you know that wilfred is a disciple in verse 28 according to those standards and so uh i like that story to tell in verse 27 28 and wilfred had just joined the church december 31 1833 uh and here this is just a couple months later and find it how old was he hank because in in that movie mountain of the lord he looks pretty young wilford woodruff was baptized december 31 1833 he's just 26 27 years old and a new convert of what four or five months uh and he's ready to put his life on the line there the lord says you want to know what discipleship looks like that's what it looks like yeah that's awesome wilfred woodruff yeah i wonder if he ever amounts to anything [Laughter] yeah yeah that'd be an interesting story to follow uh maybe pick up that thread uh now the lord says uh in terms of numbers he would prefer 500 he says in verse 30 um and if you can't do 500 then uh 300. if you can't do 300 then 100. and if you can't do 100 don't go he says at least at least 100 but uh 500 would be awesome right that that would be my my recommendation and so uh they go out recruiting so 205 men 10 women and like six children yeah uh so that's gonna be what they're the ultimately get they're gonna leave so hiram smith and and uh and his group they go up actually to michigan to recruit up there and they get about 20 people and joseph smith and those in the kirtland area get about 85 and then they start marching together to meet they'll meet together in missouri on june 8th so they're so they're recruiting kind of all along the way until they've the the biggest it gets then is yeah 205 men 10 women and six children and so now if you want if you want a verse to cross stitch and put on your wall uh you want a little handout to give to the youth uh verse 36 so good yeah yeah john you want you want to read it you want to oh it's marked yeah um all victory and glory is brought to pass unto you through your diligence faithfulness and prayers of faith that's a good cross stitch yeah that is a good cross stitch there's people listening saying what's cross stitch yeah that was awesome i love this the image of joseph smith standing up in the meeting saying i'm going to zion is it a good idea they're like it is a good idea who will go with me yeah yeah it could be funny to vote yes it's a good idea will you go i have bought some land i have bought some oxen and have to prove them uh i have married a wife [Laughter] yeah yeah you might die in verse 27 and 28. yeah you could you could die who's still with me and by the way and that's amazing right that they have 200 and how many does that add up to 215 plus six what 221 21 people 221 people that are willing to lay down their lives uh for the gospels say oh for zion's sake in this in this instance right wow so this section 104 uh yeah it kind of kind of fits in the context here because the issue is what to do about the united firm the united firm some of your listeners may recall section 78 commanded its creation section 82 is the day that it happened in missouri it was the uniting of the kirtland leaders and the missouri leaders in a united financial group that would oversee the printing of church publications holding church properties in trust assisting the poor it's basically that like the first corporate management system of the financial corporate management of the church right uh we're talking about primarily three places we're talking about the sydney gilbert and whitney store in missouri as a dry goods store or mercantile shop and then we have the ww phelps and companies print shop in missouri also that was the literary firm that produced scripture and then the third major player was back in kirtland which was the newell k whitney mercantile store and uh they they were money makers for the church well what happens when a mob destroys the printing press in missouri and the dry goods store in missouri uh what kind of a united firm do you have left when the you only have one one you just got the the kirtland store right and so they actually got together on april 10th they the united firm uh those that could meet and they voted we dissolved the firm uh it's only it's two years old by this point right and uh and so section 104 is the lord basically ratifying that decision that's a good idea on the 23rd of april so this is now right they met on the 10th now on the 23rd the lord is ratifying and saying uh let me let me tell you how i feel about that he takes this opportunity to teach and he says now the reason why an adjustment to the firm needs to take place is because here he goes this was intended verse 1 to be an everlasting firm every time you see the word order in this section just you just cross that out and write the word firm that was just a pseudonym put in later to disguise the fact that this was anything about finances so the enemies of the church who wanted to litigate wouldn't wouldn't know to come after that thing united firm united order same thing uh he says this was meant to be an everlasting order with a promise verse 2 immutable and unchangeable that as long as you were faithful you would receive a multiplicity of blessings but if not faithful then they were nigh unto cursing he says but in as much verse 3 but in as much as they were not faithful they were not nigh unto cursing therefore inasmuch as some of my servants you know who you are it was it was sydney gilbert's and it was w.w phelps have not kept the commandment but have broken the covenant through covetousness and with feigned words i have cursed them with a very sore and grievous curse and i've decreed in my heart that inasmuch as any man belonging to the order shall be found a transgressor or breaks the covenant that he will be cursed in his life and uh will be trodden down this is pretty strong language i the lord i'm not to be mocked in these things the lord is as merciful as the day is long but when he's dealing with uh covenant breakers who are consistently repeated offenders here this is what he's he's who he's talking to here let me give you some context on what he means by uh covetousness and feigned words i actually have a little excerpt from uh a letter that uh on the 14th of january 1833 uh not quite a year earlier uh kirtland leaders wrote this letter to edward partridge about a letter that i don't we don't we don't have a copy of as far as i know that sydney sydney gilbert had written them on in december i guess i guess it was pretty pretty snarky uh he said things he said things this is the words we have it says brother cindy gilbert's letter of december 10th has been received and read attentively and the low dark and blind insinuations which were in it were not received by us as from the fountain of light though his claims and pretensions to holiness were great we are not unwilling to be chastened or rebuked for our faults but we just want to receive it in language we can understand like nathan said today but thou art the man just tell us what you have against us no insinuations and dark you know uh sort of you know innuendo here he said they said we are aware that brother gilbert is doing much and a multitude of business on hand but but let him purge out the old leaven and do his business in the spirit of the lord and the lord will bless him otherwise the frown of the lord will remain upon him and then they say this there is manifestly an uneasiness in brother gilbert and a fearfulness that god will not provide for his saints in their last days and these fears lead him on to covetousness this ought not so to be but let him do just as the lord has commanded him and then the lord will open his coffers and his wants will be liberally supplied but if this uneasy covetous disposition be cherished by him the lord will bring him to poverty shame and disgrace wow that's a that's a rebuke uneasy uneasy covetousness disposition giant you don't want one of those and that letter that is a response to a letter from sydney gilbert and and who wrote that letter so this was written it says from kirtland church leaders to edward partridge uh who was the leader over in missouri and they're just saying listen his letter yeah yeah yeah the letter we got from sydney gilbert was not uh that was not becoming of a member of the united firm that's not how it should go right so covetousness and feigned words uh phelps had also said things like well what are you going to do with my press and my printing stuff and joseph smith's like woo my my stuff whose press is that well william yeah is it not the lord's prayer how did you how did you come to have that press right uh careful careful that you don't forget that this is because of the consecration of the saints yeah and so you can see so human nature is just getting woven in here and and the lord is saying you want to know why the united firm needs to be dissolved well it's because that kind of stuff has crept in what lessons might there be you know for us as we think about covenant breaking the lord is serious especially when it's repeated you've been warned again and again by leaders this is over a year earlier they're warning him to repent of this kind of thing and he clearly did not and and so the lord's stepping it up a little bit in intensity here isn't he i think this is a good it's a good gut check for all of us right uh watch out for those that that covetous disposition um that can that can just ruin things in in your life and the other part of this scot that i'm hearing is i kind of like that these men were very human uh and that they they said things sometimes they shouldn't have said i'm hoping sydney gilbert uh repents here and and comes around but yeah he reminds them of of how this system is supposed to work verses 11 through 18 uh remind us they outline the principles that should undergird or that do undergird the lord's system of stewardship that we should remember uh for instance just we could highlight quickly uh verse 14 that remember that all things in the earth that god built are mine he says it is my purpose to provide for my saints he repeats it again for all things are mine it must needs be done in mine own way and behold this is the way that i the lord have decreed to provide for my saints that the poor shall be exalted in that the rich are made low the lord invites those who've been blessed with abundance to help the poor rise and thrive and it's without compulsion and when the when the rich withhold their their goods uh zion suffers and the lord is going to talk more about that as we go on in section 105 but that's all along the way it's covetousness it's selfishness it's thinking me my me my me my the lord saying remember it's it's mine and you are a steward you are a steward you are a steward uh nevertheless verse 17 the the earth is full and there is enough and to spare yea i prepared all things and have given unto the children of men to be agents unto themselves therefore if a man shall take of the abundance which i have made and impart not his portion according to the law of my gospel unto the poor and the needy he shall with the wicked lift up his eyes in hell being in torment you can totally choose what you want to do with the abundance i have given you but listen right this is my way if you are my covenant people i am asking you to give of your abundance what you got from me to help the help bring up help exalt the poor uh help build zion and uh and that that seems like that lesson just has not sunk in and has not sunk in and has not sunk in that's caused problems in missouri in their expulsion and now it's causing the the end of the united firm is what's happening here that's a i think that the end of verse 18 that's a direct reference to the parable of lazarus and the rich man right and he just he he just wouldn't even give lazarus a crumb off his table right lazarus just wanted the crumbs from the table and he said no i'm not going to give it to you and uh it's a it's a fantastic parable and this seems to be a lesson you're right scott he's staying over and over again selfishness will destroy zion yeah it hasn't sunk in yet apparently it's hard too to not not to read this and point fingers at ourselves i mean that's a good application of this am i like this because i always look at them and think they had less than we do now it's easy also john to look at people who have more than me and say yeah they should be giving right i hope i hope so and so reads this verse you know who really needs this version yeah yeah and uh not me of course but yeah yeah i'm fine yeah i'm doing great so we don't want to go through all of uh 1010 in i think all the details let me summarize a few things and then if listeners want to dig deeper uh i think they should uh verses 19 through 46 is like kind of one big section where the lord says listen here's what we're gonna do we're gonna distribute the the kirtland properties that were sort of managed by the united firm as personal stewardships to members of the firm in kirtland and he goes through each person in the firm and he says this is your stewardship this is your stewardship and if you if you do well and you you you let's see he repeats over and over again he says this this will be your stewardship under which you shall be appointed unto them and inasmuch as they are faithful i will bless and multiply blessings upon them he says that over and over after each stewardship you be faithful and you're going to get blessed abundantly i'm seeing the names here scott sydney rigdon verse 20 martin harris john johnson frederick williams oliver cowdery 28 uh is that new okay whitney 39 so he's just distributing out what is left yep to the individual that's right and this is going to be your stewardship uh it's in your own personal name but uh remembers who remember whose it is remember whose it is yeah so he's giving them back things like the property you live on like new okay whitney verse 39 i appoint unto you the house and the lot where he now resides uh that's now your stewardship uh the place you already lived uh or you're living and also your store and things that he was already uh interested in right already had some stewardship over but this is now just officially dissolving the ties with missouri i i wouldn't be uh i wouldn't be a good friend to my friend uh juliette sorensen who's serving in kirtland if i didn't point out the ashery in verse 39. if you go on a tour to if you go on a tour to old kirtland you can see the ashrae and it made them quite a bit of money it was one of the the few things few business ventures that actually was profitable for them yeah yeah and so uh juliet that one is for you that's so cool and that's how my children pronounce their oldest sister's name for a long time ashley they pronounced ashrae for a while hey i'm glad that that's a nice little tie in there john yeah if you've been to kirtland that's fun to tour that and they they made soap there right hank yeah they made the potash uh which they could sell yeah yeah the potter potash yeah so then verse 47 through 53 is where the lord officially dissolves the united firm look at verse 53 says well sadly verse 52 the covenants being broken through transgression by covetousness and feigned words therefore you are dissolved as a united order wow uh verse 48 uh he says let's have a united order of or united firm of the stake of zion in kirtland and let's have a total separate one called the united firm of the city of zion so that ends right there the joint association of the firm uh verses 54 to 59 just reviews again some of the principles and purposes for their stewardships uh my favorite is in 58 59 this is kind of a cool perspective about scripture look at this if you want to know how the lord feels about printing scripture and why he thinks that it's worth the funds that it takes to print scripture listen what he says here he says that the in verse 58 he's talking about printing my words the fullness of my scriptures the revelations of the doctrine covenants we've been talking about he says verse 59 here's why for the purpose of building up my church and the kingdom on the earth and to prepare my people for the time when i shall dwell with them which is nigh at hand i don't know how often i think about scriptures as the instruments that god has given us to help prepare for his second coming the the instruments god has given us to build the church and the kingdom of god on earth it is a one by one thing that the scriptures do right with in our own hearts helping us become pure uh but then there's also this aggregate thing happening as the as the leaven of the scriptures uh continues to influence us it's it's preparing for jesus to return and jesus thinks that's worth the investment and uh to get scriptures out to people uh and that's awesome yeah that is beautiful and and the the amount of scripture we print today uh oh man yeah it's just uh astronomical okay can you imagine showing these these men these people of jill smith's time the the hundreds of millions of copies of the book of mormon that have been printed in 120 languages that were right or whatever it is you know and now we're giving them out for free we're giving them out for free to anyone who wants a copy that speaks to the consecration of of enough saints today that we're seeing the the impact when you consecrate look how god can build zion through the consecration of the many members i mean it's it's phenomenal what's happening today yeah verses 60 to 77 command the establishment of two treasuries one for printing scripture specifically and one treasury for all other proceeds from their stewardships the different farms or the the new okay whitney store etc and then verses 78 through 86 gives counsel on how to get out of debt that instruction to pay all your debts reminded me of section 19 when uh martin harris was told pay the debt thou has contracted with the printer released thyself from bondage and this is kind of interesting to see uh scott i've heard you share something before about about debt that from uh from uh prophets more in our time that i thought would be helpful for our listeners uh so yeah let's get some perspective on on debt not all of it is you know you got to get rid of it all right now for instance uh other joseph b worthlin he said that some debt such as for a modest home expenses for education perhaps for a needed first car may be necessary right president hinckley said that in the financial operations of the church we've observed two basic and fixed principles presently said one the church will live within its means it will not spend more than it receives two a fixed percentage of the income will be set aside to build reserves against what might be called a possible rainy day for years the church has taught its membership the principle of setting aside a reserve of food as well as as well as money to take care of emergency needs that might arise and we are only trying to follow the same principle for the church as a whole so yeah you might need some some debt to uh to begin with and and uh this particular scenario that the lord's talking about with them uh is is different than i think most of us are gonna find ourselves in but uh but i think the general principle does apply let's let's live within our means let's pay off our debts uh when that makes sense and we can do that um right without harming our families and uh follow the the overall the example of the church in in living within our means and setting aside some some savings for a rainy day so uh scott i noticed that section 104 is received in april section 105 is received in june and i'm guessing a lot happens between april and june so can you tell us what happens yes yes uh i don't know if you can hear if my microphone just caught when you said that there was a thunderclap that just that just happened outside my window right here there's there's rain on the window and the thunder and i think that's perfect to talk about section 105. so yeah let me give you the timeline here on the 5th of may they've done the majority of their recruiting at home and up in michigan and zion camp leaves kirtland they're on their way to missouri to go help the saints right who were displaced get back to the lands that they rightfully own and uh this is america right we should and the governor governor duncan's like i mean there is no way anyone can argue that's not your property you have every right to it uh and and and i will help you uh the militia of the state militia meet you and we'll we'll help your people get in there so they're going to march from may 5th to june 22nd and uh it's this is going to be a long march this is going to be uh almost 900 miles i think it's 880 and they're not very well prepared in terms of food and rations there's going to be a lot of hot days a lot of blistered feet a lot of hungry people a lot of dehydration a lot of rancid food and this is going to test the the metal of the people it's going to test joseph the prophet uh uh george a smith joseph's cousin he was a teenager on this camp and he said that that when when hebrews kimball invited joseph to ride in the wagon you know because he's the prophet come riding the wagon with me joseph would say no thank you and he would walk along you know 20 to 40 miles a day along with everybody else and he had blistered feed along with everybody else and he was eating the food and drinking the the water and and experiencing the the low rations and i think this this is gonna this is testing everybody that's testing their patients it's testing their resolve it's testing some of their faith in joseph smith the prophet um william mcclellan will one day when he when he apostatizes he'll be one of the original 12 apostles who will leave the church he's going to cite one of the reasons he left the church was because he didn't believe that the our lord was a man of war and that when joseph did this zion's camp expedition that was evidence that he was a fallen prophet because he was being warlike you know and so people are going to have some assumptions they're going to be violated as they're watching this unfold and and yet at the very same time some people are going to have their faith deeply richly strengthened and they're going to come out of this uh polished and and ready for the lord's for the lord's work to take on the next level responsibility so this is the 18th of june let me tell you a story about lightning and thunder this is awesome so um on the 18th of june so zion's camp arrived within a mile of richmond which was the the county seat of ray county which is near jackson county and as the army is is camping there uh the prophet had a premonition of danger he went into the woods prayed for safety and was assured that the lord would protect them he then had the camp roused in the early morning hours and they left without prayers or breakfast and as they marched through richmond a slave woman said to them there's a company of men lying and wait here who are calculated to kill you this morning as you pass through which would be creepy right but as they pass through as they pass through nothing happened instead of reaching their intended destination of liberty they camp just inside clay county that night kind of alert right on on the lookout there had been stories circulating in jackson county and the counties nearby that the mormons were coming with like 2 000 men they were going to come and wipe them out and they were saying that not even a woman oh no the women no the men were going to be killed and the women were going to be made they're slaves and all kinds of stuff that like they're not saying right but they're just these inflammatory stories but people are getting whipped up into a frenzy like we're gonna we're not gonna let that happen are we like no you know and so they're they're ready to like take the mormons on right well meanwhile uh joseph's fears are confirmed that something something's up when five armed missourians right into camp cursing and swearing and they said the mormons are going to see hell before morning can i say that on the podcast yeah you can say yeah that was a quote that was a quote they boasted that nearly 400 men had joined forces from rey and lafayette and clay and jackson counties and they were then preparing to cross the missouri river at williams ferry and utterly destroy the mormons sounds of gunfire were heard off in the distance and some of the men wanted to fight some of joseph some of the camp of israel were like let's do it this is why we came right uh and but the prophet he promised that the lord would protect him he declared i love this he says stand still and see the salvation of god a few minutes after the missourians left a small little black cloud appeared in the clear western sky it moved eastward unrolled like a scroll and filled the heavens with darkness as the first ferry load of mobbers started crossing the missouri river to the south a sudden storm made it nearly impossible for the boat to return to pick up another load the storm was so intense the record says that zion's camp they abandoned their tents they find shelter in an old baptist meeting house and and joseph he exclaims boys there is some meaning to this god is in this storm uh it was impossible for anyone to sleep so they sang hymns just pouring like crazy uh they're singing in this old baptist church and uh all outside is he says during this time the whole canopy of the wide horizon was in one complete blaze with terrifying claps of thunder and the mobbers were scrambling to find refuge right and this this this storm broke branches from trees destroyed crops it soaked and made all the mobbers ammunition useless it frightened and scattered their horses raised the level of the river that they were trying to afford to come and take take out the mormons almost 40 feet in like a half hour you know like a half it just boom and uh it prevented them from attacking zion's cam uh the prophet recalled in his history says it it seemed as if the mandate of vengeance had gone forth from the god of battles to protect his servants from the destruction of their enemies my favorite is two days later a colonel sconce from the the enemies army rides into zion's camp to learn about the mormons intentions and he says to joseph after that storm he said i see that there is an almighty power that protects this people and the prophet then explains that the only purpose of zion's camp was just to help our brother and be reinstated in their lands we don't have any ill intentions we don't intend to hurt anybody and and the evil reports that are circulating about us are faults and and they're trying to get people whipped up to come against us to destroy us but after hearing that sconce and his companions were so affected by the stories of the unjust trials and suffering of the saints they actually then promised to use their influence to offset the feelings against the mormons which is so that's that's the day before the 22nd which is you'll notice in the in this chapter or the section heading june 22nd is when this revelation is received so what happens that causes uh the revelation uh to come about well they get some bad news they get bad news that uh governor daniel dunklin has reneged on his uh agreement to support uh the army to bring out any of the of his militia to help escort the scattered saints back home to their property and that's that's devastating news right because now it's just them 200 of them 221 and there's sounds like hundreds of others on the other on the opposite the opposing side and uh so this is a great disappointment that the governor has withdrawn his promise to support the saints and it was in the midst of that that it was counseled together what should we do and joseph inquires of the lord and section 105 is the result so that's the backstory any any reason why that happens maybe just political maneuvering yeah the reason that happens according to something i was reading on joseph smith papers about this recently it said that uh that governor dunklin saw the writing on the wall he saw that people in in jackson county and ray county they were a little fanatical they were they were they were crazy they they convinced themselves of the stories that they'd heard about about the saints and they were uh they were kind of thirsty for blood and governor duncan felt like if we do this [Music] this is going to lead to a bloodbath yeah this is going to lead to a civil war right here in missouri this is not going to be a peaceable experience and so i think he his judgment was this is not the time for anyone to be walking into jackson county with guns even the state militia with as long as the members of the church are there uh that's that's gonna be provocative right and so i think his his thought was let's let's force stall violence uh in all fairness to governor duncan he doesn't seem to be a flake he seems to be a uh a concerned governor yeah but now they're there so now what do they do they've walked 880 miles they they go up uh north about i can't it was 10 or 20 miles to a member of the church's farm there near fishing river and uh and section 105 is uh is received there so yeah so now they uh so now joseph is asking the lord what do we do now and uh section 105 is the response so verses 1 through 15 uh it gives the lord's first reason why zion is not going to be redeemed right now and then verses 16 and 17 give the second so let's look at verses 1-15 the first reason the lord says that zion is not going to be redeemed right now is because verse 2 here it is again behold i say unto you were it not for the transgressions of my people speaking concerning the church and not individuals they might have been redeemed even now what does that mean speaking concerning the church and not individuals that's that's fascinating there's a there's a phrase uh i want to use the phrase corporate blessings but that makes sense corporate blessings require corporate obedience meaning if god's going to bless an entire people it's going to take the unified cooperative effort and obedience of the entire people people yeah a few people can mess it up right i don't know what the exact critical mass is to mess up uh the blessings the corporate blessing but uh but whatever that threshold is they've crossed it and the lord said i'm not talking about any particular person and i'm talking about a collect collectively so the lord is the lord is saying here that you still haven't learned lesson number one which is to learn to a part of your substance as becometh saints uh and then surprisingly he says i'm not just talking about missouri this is interesting look at this in verse uh let's see verse seven i speak not concerning uh those who are appointed to lead my people uh who are the first elders of my church for they are not all under my condemnation but i'm i'm speaking concerning my churches abroad uh those outside of missouri as well and not just those in kirtland but those who are kind of scattered out little branches he says there are many who will say where is their god behold he will deliver them in the time of trouble and otherwise we will not go up to zion and we will keep our monies people kind of waiting for god to like deliver them to decide whether or not they're going to truly consecrate right once we see that the zion project is fully underway then we'll contribute our monies the lord saying that is backwards that's actually hindering the cause therefore he says in consequence of the transgressions of my people it is expedient in me that mine elders should wait for a little season for the redemption of zion so this is a corporate like beyond missouri corporate we're talking the whole church he's asked them time and time again section 101 most recently to give of their monies to help purchase lands in zion and that in in combination with zion's camp would would help bring about the redemption of zion but the money didn't come and we only got some some volunteers that's that's reason number two he says in verse 16 he says uh i commanded my servant joseph smith to say under the strength of my house even my warriors my young men my middle age men to gather together for the redemption of my people to throw down the towers of my enemies and scatter their watchmen but the strength of my house have not hearkened unto my words well i only got i only got uh 221 that's not enough that's not enough so okay so two reasons zion is not going to be redeemed right now the various branches of the church number one have not learned to consecrate their money as i asked them to do and zion can't be redeemed until the body of saints as a whole as a whole learned to impart of their substance and then problem number two there wasn't a sufficient number of young and middle-aged men who responded to the call to come to redeem zion as i asked them to do he doesn't even mention governor duncan at all which is interesting uh but uh that was the impetus that got them to ask the question but the lord doesn't even mention him in any way here so scott i'm hearing no consecration no unity there's no consecration and there's no unity and zion can't be built without consecration and without unity i think that's almost the definition right consecrated united people and oh that's right yeah yeah that's right and they've got neither um you can't get zion blessings without being zion people no you can't get zion blessings without living the love zion yeah that's right that's right so he's it's almost as if listen the the zion is waiting for you it's ready you're i'm i'm ready when you are ready when you're ready to be a zion people zion is ready to be built but for now we don't have enough people who are in right that's an important discussion because we can always talk about yeah we were persecuted and this happened to us and this happened to us but what is the lord actually saying i think that's a i like the way you put that scott here here are the reasons and they were internal they were they were they were us uh speak saying us as if i'm a member of the church with them back then but um we brought some of this upon ourselves and it's the same thing today i would wouldn't you think it's the same thing today both of you uh zion is waiting for us as a church uh ready for us to be united and consecrated people and it'll happen now what does that look like in in in 2021 and and what corporate blessings will require corporate obedience and consecration i mean the lord says that uh yeah basically he's ready when we are uh for whatever that will look like and what we need is the people who are willing to put all the chips in no matter what right now yeah i'm i'm in all right i'm i'm here with you and listen to the section just to jump back to section 101 verse 75 the lord said back in december he said quote there is even now already in store sufficient yea even an abundance to redeem zion and establish her waste places no more to be thrown down were the churches who call themselves after my name willing to hearken to my voice yikes all right so there's uh there's there's enough there the lord keeps saying and uh he's not he's not given up on zion but he's telling them here that uh uh yeah like you said john it's it's it's internal and uh they got some work to do in fact that's the solution the solution he actually gives a solution here and he gives two solutions so there's two problems and there's two solutions uh solution number one is in verse nine and ten uh the lord says uh i'll just summarize these solutions as education and an endowment those are the two solutions so verse nine and ten talk about education the lord says that both the elders and my people need to be taught more perfectly and have experience and know more perfectly concerning their duty and the things which i require at their hands i love how patient he is here you know he is exacting can we say that about god he's exacting he does require obedience uh but he says listen let's take as long as you need you need more time to learn uh to have experience and to to to learn more perfectly what i'm asking you to do about your duty and the things i'm requiring of you uh one of my favorite uh thoughts from from brad wilcox he gave a talk once and he said he said you know how in the sacrament you know uh when have you ever heard a priest like mess up the prayer you know and of course everyone can nod their head have you ever heard a priest messed up over and over again and it starts to get awkward and uncomfortable in the congregation you know and each time the bishop leans over kind of shakes his head and says one more time you know uh brad said he said there isn't some secret switch that a bishop can can can flip that to opens a trapdoor underneath the priest and and sucks illiterate priests down into the dungeon uh until they can get those prayers right right he said the lord does want that prayer said exactly but you can take as many tries as it takes to get it right uh sometimes you just need to practice until you get it right right and i love that thought i love the image of god that that portrays that he is exacting but he's also patient and uh and merciful and so that's what i see in verses nine and ten is you you gotta do some more learning apparently there's there's more you need to know more perfectly about your duty and the things i'm asking of you and let's take as much time as you need on that and then for this to happen he says in verse 11 and 12 and he mentions again in verse 18 and 33 he talks about an endowment he says this cannot be brought to pass this full educational experience this reorienting of your hearts and minds until mine elders are endowed with power from on high for behold i have prepared a great endowment and a blessing to be poured out upon them inasmuch as they are faithful and continue in humility before me and then we he actually tells them in verse 33 if you flip over that that endowment is going to happen he says in the in the kirtland temple uh back in kirtland there is a there is an endowment on high that my elders need to receive as in some he's not super explicit here but it seems somehow connected to this reorienting re-education experience and perhaps uh they need they need the gift from god this gift of power to help them be what he needs them to be to live the laws he needs them to live to bring about the zion project the kingdom of god that that needs to be brought about in preparation for his coming so these are all kind of connected together right if you go back to 101 wasn't that the parable what does he need the tower for right what does he need the temple for well i i needed the temple so you could learn to be zion uh and so we're gonna have to go do that somewhere else yeah and if you can keep that in mind that a a primary purpose of the temple is to make us zion-like or kingdom ready ready for the king to come ready to you know be being as consecrated and is you know pure in heart and mind and uh all the things that they're lacking here and that as we look inside our own souls we see that we're we're often lacking uh yeah the the covenants of the temple and that that's that's exactly what they're calculated to do now those won't come about tell navu what we're talking about here but but kirtland's going to be the beginning of those of that kind of uh purification of the heart that's right right what is it doesn't that what isaiah says go to the mountain of the lord he will teach us of his ways we will beat our swords into plows right am i getting this right we will uh our spears into pruning hooks in my mind he's saying let's go to the temple so we can be taught and changed right we can be changed from a sword to a plow right a weapon of war to a weapon of feeding people and it seems like that fits very well here don't you think scott with the idea of the temple is what's going to change you into a zion type people a zion part of that part of that education that reorientation that they need uh to we're not we're not doing things uh the way of of the world right uh uh and and it's it's hard to to un unlearn right you can hear yoda saying you must unlearn what you have learned i know john can you do a good yoda impersonation uh or i better than your repertoire do yoda i cannot [Laughter] we'll get that's a great line that was good you must unlearn what you have learned right one of my favorite yoda quotes in fact there's that that line is almost an exact line from uh from levi hancock who was on the on zion's camp he said that the prophet joseph taught taught those in zion's camp that quote we had to unlearn what we had learned from the world that was one of the things that we we need we need to shed that how long is it going to take for us to unlearn what we've learned from the world that keeps us from receiving the blessings of zion and the lord's saying here as long as it takes right you see the bishop leaning looking over and just just shaking his head and saying one more time give it another try yeah you'll get it you'll get it yeah you'll get it you'll get it however however many tries it takes just uh uh earlier in the podcast you said this is the way so you quoted the mandalorian and there you just quoted the yoda so i mean so wow there's something there's something there i think there's some plagiarism going on this was written first well this is humbling i mean thinking of of joseph himself walking as you said 30 or 40 miles in a day not getting on a wagon and uh i think i'd i i might be tempted to murmur blisters on your feet and everything and then getting there i mean zion's camp is just a fascinating story and i appreciate the way you've explained the the reasons the solutions this is really good scott i'm reminded of you know president benson's cleanse the inner vessel emphasis uh worry about the outside things as much but we gotta start within yeah and you think john you just some listeners might want to grab onto that phrase you just mentioned verse 14 uh where the lord promises to fight your battle he says i don't i don't require at their hands to fight the battles of zion for as i've said in former commandment even so will i fulfill i will fight your battles uh you can think for for imagery there you can think of that storm right the he he protected him big time so physically that that's that's certainly one of the things he might mean here but yeah you work on you work on you you work on your heart you work on becoming that that zion people according to the laws of the celestial kingdom uh he said in verse five work on that and i'll i'll worry about the enemies for me i just personally am thinking how can i be more consecrated and how can i be more united first of course in my home and my ward and my stake how can i be more united with my with those people around me and how can i be more consecrated i think if we all ask those questions we'd be moving forward would we scott towards our goal amen absolutely i don't i don't want to be the one ruining the corporate behavior you know the corporate blessings yeah yeah and john you'll appreciate a book of mormon reference here sometimes i think of it as uh you know when lehi's family they're in the boat they're they're crossing the ocean and how many did it take how did it take to to bring the storm you know there were a lot of people that were being very obedient to the lord the whole time you get a few people who are being rude a few people who are being uh they're i don't know what kind of dancing they were doing but yeah and it wasn't good yeah and then they're getting god mm-hmm yeah it was just a a a small was layman lemuel and what was it some of the some of the business sons of ishmael and sons yeah and and who paid everybody everybody everybody paid for their good point uh how many people does it take to uh rock the boat you know um lehigh can we make a separate boat for us [Laughter] let's split the boat in half cut it right down the message right sometimes that's the analogy right you've heard elder balor talk about the good ship zion right the good ship zion that's uh maybe that's an analogy that's helpful but you know uh the lord says uh there's a few other things maybe we should grab here that i think might be useful to understanding the lord's plan for that time and then and then maybe some things that grew out of this that would be interesting for our listeners so uh the lord says for those who will remain in the region those who are missourians who've been displaced uh that they that they should do their best to find grace and favor in the eyes of the locals this is in verse 23 24 25 that's the phrase i will give unto you favor and grace in that you may rest in peace and safety while you're saying to the people please help us out please execute judgment and justice for us according to law and redress us of our wrongs he says if you can if you can uh do that kind of curry favor with the locals that will give sufficient time verse 26 uh for joseph to raise an army of israel until the army of israel becomes very great which he says that joseph in mind and mine elders verse 27 will have time to gather up the strength of my house now uh what about those we haven't talked about the good guys yet what about those like wilford woodruffs what about those those people bring them out about c kimball all these things come on george a smith they did a great job showing they're willing to lay down their lives right to come along to zion's camp what about them and the lord talks about them in verse 18 and 19 he says that in as much as there are those who have hearkened to my words i have prepared a blessing and an endowment for them mentions the endowment again here if they continue faithful i have heard their prayers and will accept their offerings i will accept their offerings and it is expedient in me that they should be brought thus far for a trial of their faith this was a refining even for the best of them a refining a trial of their faith and uh and this is where we get some of those great stories right from uh some of the leaders that were there brigham young for instance someone asked him brother brigham what have you gained by this journey and then when uh when brigham young was in salt lake he's already there uh he's president of the church at this time he was recalling this uh and he said i have traveled with joseph a thousand miles as he has led the camp of israel i have watched him and observed everything he said or did for the town of kirtland i would not give the knowledge i got from joseph from this journey this was the starting point of my knowing how to lead israel so uh this is going to be valuable in fact go over to verse 35 i think this the lord is starting to hint toward the fact that there were certain people on this on this trip who he is about to choose for added leadership responsibilities he says in verse 35 there has been a day of calling but the time has come for a day of choosing and let those be chosen that are worthy and it shall be manifest unto my servant joseph by the voice of the spirit those that are chosen and they shall be sanctified he's a little ambiguous here about what he means by chosen for what right chosen for what um but you you both know what happens after this right when they when they get home actually that next year on valentine's day uh this is when it's time for the choosing of the twelve apostles and the seventy uh and uh the way that joseph phrased the the gathering of that meeting he said we'd like to have a meeting with all those who were on zion's camp that's how he that's how he phrased it or the camp of israel i think would be his phrase and they along with others came and uh he actually had those who who were on in the camp of israel i want you to come sit over here and those who are not you can sit over here and he just wanted to highlight the sacrifice of those who are willing to do that and then he said the time has come for the lord to to call and to choose those who have proven that they've been willing to lay down their lives for him and then he turned to the three witnesses and said you know back in section 18 you were commissioned to choose the quorum of the twelve now is the time they withdraw uh amongst those that's oliver cowdery yeah that's oliver cowdery david whitmer martin harris okay they they withdraw are prayerful and they've been thinking about this ever since section 18 was given uh oliver calrey later says but you know like this this kind of weight on them um this responsibility but this was the time they come back and they present the names of the 12. and i think it was was it nine nine of the 12 original twelve apostles uh were on zion's camp and then uh and then the next the selection of the seventy how many of the the original presidents of the seventy and quorum of the seventy were on zion's camp 100 percent a hundred percent of those yeah were from zion's camp and so uh the the three witnesses set them the quorum of the twelve apart and then the first presidency confirmed their their calling and so so i think i think that's what the lord is alluding to here in verse 35 and 36 that yeah so so here so here in section one of i think that's what verse 35 and 36 are talking about right that this let those be chosen that are worthy there's now a group who have shown that they are willing to lay down their lives for christ's sake and that's exactly the kind of people he wants as the leaders of the king things get more complex as this continues to move as the church grows we're now we're now going to have a group of tried and true leaders right that uh that will hopefully be able to bear this kingdom forward so so zion's camp had that that influence that refining influence and it's interesting that's when you know when you when you listen to church leaders today talk about zion's camp they they seem to always go there and uh you know i like uh this this quote from elder dominate jokes he said according to its ostensible purpose zion's camp was a failure i love that just like that didn't they did not get their land back right uh but then he said but most of the men who were to lead the church for the next half century including those who would take the saints across the plains and colonize the inner mountain west came to know the prophet joseph and received their formative leadership training in the march of zion's camp um so good right elder bednar he brings it kind of to our day he says as as individuals and in our families we too will be tested sifted and prepared as were the members of zion's camp remember not everyone came out very well right there were some that this is going to try their faith and yet there's others like brigham young who just they come out shining uh there's something about this crucible right that sort of causes people to go one way or the other here so elder bed and are saying that's that's happening also today in different ways he says the scriptures and the declarations of the apostles and prophets do not indicate that faithful members of this church will have trials and tests removed from their lives right quite quite to the contrary the lord needs to know who he can rely on uh so anyway thoughts on that from either of you oh i i love that and i think hank has hank talk brought this up before um the idea of well that wasn't what we expected i think hank you brought up the the disciples on the road to email us well we had hoped that this had been the savior that would and i i keep seeing parallels with that because they also thought that jesus was a political type deliverer and he ended up to ended up to have a much more spiritual work and impact that he had on them and so did zion's camp it wasn't as much didn't end up being as much as a physical thing as a process of becoming for all those that went on it yeah it seems to be a pattern with the lord doesn't it that he's got we have one intention in mind he's got an expectation yeah we've he's got a completely different thing in mind he's um yeah and he kind of lets us go on with our expectation uh and then when the moment comes where our expectation isn't met he says but mine was right right everything happened that i wanted to have happen uh there along the way if you think about brigham and the exodus from nauvoo and the experience he gained from this and he's also going to be the one who takes him from uh missouri back to illinois right when they're actually joseph's in jail when joseph's in jail these two experiences are going to create uh in him someone who can actually pull off the exodus of the millennium right uh and so i think the lord has that in mind as he's working here uh versus our limited understanding right of what we think we're we're doing uh so wow and i i think it's great that like a mod an application that we can all make is when our expectations are not met or we didn't we didn't get what we thought we would get but we can say but what did we learn what did we become what did we experience those those verses that you pointed out scott um yeah what appears john what appears to be a total failure to some is an absolute success to the lord and and that can be applied in in many different ways when when things that you'd hoped kind of fall apart right when a marriage that you'd hoped was going to continue forever kind of falls apart or when something you know a career that you'd hoped was gonna happen doesn't happen you can see the lord's hand in in in that particular direction for a while right and then he says i got what i wanted out of that now let's go this way um yeah you can and you can go yeah and people can and we see it right uh that people can go two ways with those types of really intense life experiences it can either make them better or can make them bitter right i mean it's and it's uh you never know until the crucible hits and so i think just having that pattern in our lives of trying to be submissive to god do the best we can be willing to lay down our lives for his sake uh having uh you know just kingdom of god first in our minds i think that that prepares us when those types of things happen when our assumptions are violated because they will because they will right um i think one more example end of the war chapters where some some were hardened because of the exceedingly great length of the war and others were softened and it was same experience different reactions based on what they chose internally how they chose to take it now i was just going to say i just love seeing the lord's patience in these verses that you know and his he's just so calm with them as they're how frustrated they must be at least some of them and even joseph right uh and he says well you've got a lot to learn so i'm here for you do you know what else hank i i've i've just loved experiencing this with everyone because i i've sensed especially in those latter 90s sections how anxious he is to give them the blessings of the temple it keeps coming back i want to endow you with power would you would you hurry up and do that thing yeah yeah i have a gift i want to give you but you can't give it until you're ready yeah yeah right and then i love going back to that parable that you mentioned from 101 scott what need has my lord of a tower hey what do you need that for why do you need a temple right you can give us everything without having a temple we don't need a guy i probably do that same thing in my own life why do i need to go to the temple why do i need to make time for that i pray i read my scriptures why do i need to make time for that temple right in the lord i'm a good person i'm a good person yeah and what would what is it the lord said in the in the parable i got to go back why what is the cause of this great evil just do what i ask you to do wow i have two two thoughts um one i want to just highlight something that uh there's an article about this that your your listener should know about written by alex ba back in 2005 it's uh on the church website just called joseph smith and zion's camp um let me just read the last paragraph of what he says in there it's so good john is showing it here for your viewers okay that's so good right yeah he just it's succinct and uh i think if you were going to teach a gospel doctrine lesson you'd want to just read through this and have a highlighter there's just an angle that i think is worth considering he talks about what did zion's camp do for joseph smith you know we often think about the the up-and-coming leaders but what about the what's joseph is he 20 28 28 28 years old okay so joseph turning 28 turning 28 i think there you go so joseph is 28 years old so what did what what about him so here's what alex bach says and i just love alex baugh and can't say enough good about his scholarship on all these kinds of topics he's so good so he said lastly we should not overlook the fact that the prophet joseph smith as the commander may have gained more from the experience than anyone else five years after zion's camp the lord revealed to the prophet that all the trials in his life shall give the experience and shall be for thy good surely the zion's camp experience was for his good unquestionably he learned valuable gospel lessons about faith and virtue and knowledge and temperance and patience brotherly kindness godliness charity humility and diligence he also learned lessons regarding relationships with others the need for preparation you know joseph didn't prepare very well for this and a lot of people suffered including himself and the consequences of one's actions in short zion's camp was an important chapter in the life of joseph smith that further defined and refined him as a prophet leader to the latter-day saints wow just a great great statement there from brotherhood that's a cool angle yeah now second second thought how about this thought from uh elder ballard elder ballard gave a talk let's see ten oh eleven years ago uh to uh young adults uh fireside he said this he said so i'm gonna play with his numbers a little bit because time has passed but he said by by the year 2040 just 30 years from now which would be what uh 19 years from now just 19 years from now the number of stakes will have doubled from what they were 11 years ago to approximately 6 000 stakes and then he said to that group that audience you're going to be in your 40s and 50s early 50s and he said now ask yourself where are the 6 000 stake presidents where are their first counselors and second counselors executive secretaries and clerks where are the six thousand times twelve or seventy two thousand high counsellors and suppose that every stake has an average of 10 units about the average in the stakes today where are the 60 000 bishops first counselors second counselors executive secretaries clerks elders corn presidents their counselors high priest group leaders their assistance relief society young women primary presidents and their counselors and on and on where are they and he said i'm speaking to them right now you are they you are they will you be ready he asked to accept the callings that the lord will extend to you do not let one day go by when you do not strive to be ready to serve how are we going to be sifted and tested and tried and prepared uh i don't think we're gonna be asked to walk a thousand miles or 880 right one one way all right and then turn around i just don't think that's gonna happen here's elder bednar dropped a zinger it was actually that same year 2010 at a byu idaho education week devotional he said uh he's talking about zion's game who talks about zion's camp it's really good he said consider brothers and sisters that affluence prosperity and ease can be tests in our day equal to or greater in intensity than the persecution and physical hardships endured by the saints who volunteered to march in zion's camp so he's saying that affluence prosperity and ease can be tests in our day that are equal to zion's camp how about that um and so sometimes i like to ask my students uh just to think about that because this kind of boggles the mind right how could how could prosperity try me how could prosperity like refine my soul and sometimes i like to throw out some questions like this i say all right so which test is harder being thrown into a prison cell or being given unlimited cell phone service okay a little little plan words there it's a little cheesy i apologize test is harder uh march with blistered feet 900 miles to missouri or walk across the street once a month to check on your ministering families for the love right i need to uh can i do a shout out to the day family who is my ministering family we're going to count this uh podcast that they listen to all right go ahead scott yeah see it's never been easier it's never been easier okay here's another okay which test is harder uh being tarred and feathered for being mormon or remember the churches christianity uh or keeping your thoughts clean on the internet which test is harder being tied to a tree and whipped for your beliefs which was totally happening to those saints in in missouri uh during the expulsion or always remembering the saviors you coveted to do while having tv youtube and facebook in your life is it easier to follow the prophet to redeem zion or is it easier to follow the prophet's counsel to redeem your own dead ancestors using high-speed internet uh on your laptop in your living room right as you prepare to go to one of the hope i mean if you live in the wasatch front many temples that are that are nearby and maybe you don't live close to temple and uh but uh but you understand the point uh which which test is harder uh right building the kirtland temple in your poverty or regularly attending one of the temples in your area right and and just honor i mean it's never been uh easier but in that ease uh is the test of the bed and are saying that's a provocative thought it's just like the uh just like zion's camp you find out it's a day of choosing right a day of affluence becomes then a day of choosing who who chooses right who chooses the lord over their over their affluence over their ease at byu idaho i took a class from elder bednar uh right before he became an apostle and the the class was called teachings of the living prophets my religion course and the next semester he actually became a living prophet so that helped to kind of validate a lot of what he taught and i remember uh we were we were studying elder scott you get to study different apostles and and uh elder bednar would uh he would he would always ask us he wanted us to ask him questions that's how you know we act and not be acted upon in the learning process and so sometimes he'd have really cool stuff to share but he wouldn't share it unless we asked you know and this was one of those weeks it was uh elder bednar had just been in salt lake at a meeting with some of the brethren he had just seen elder scott and we met on friday with other bedinar and so i remember we're there and elder bednar opens up class and he says all right we're talking about other scott today what questions do you have and i raised my hand and i said elder bednar have you seen elder scott recently and he said i have raised my hand again uh elderbender what would you teach this what did you what did you learn from elder scott that you could teach us and he said well that's a great question i was actually in uh in a meeting with him recently and as we were leaving we're in the elevator and i told him we're gonna be talking about him today and i asked him if he had any counsel uh for my students and he said yes i do and he said i wrote it down on this three by five card right here in my suit coat pocket would you guys like to hear what elder scott wanted to say to you and we're like yes and he said this is what he said i think this is pretty close to an exact quote he said elder scott said to us the students of elder bednar he said uh tell your tell your students that god did not send them to earth to be entertained they are here for a much more glorious purpose that was the message from elder scott wow you know i think you know held in reserve 6 000 years you know pick your favorite prophet quote of some of the the most you know noble and great generation and here we here we are you know we can spend hours and hours and hours just doing nothing you know uh and maybe that's part of the test right god needs leaders god needs people who are consecrated people who are willing to give their all to him and and that's what with with your free time you can give a lot to god you can give a lot to god in your free time you can help prepare your heart you can help you can consecrate your mind you can prepare yourself to be something that god can use someone who could be an instrument in his hands to do some things and yeah this is from uh let me read from elder uh 2007 elder dallin h oaks team sports and technology toys like video games and the internet are already winning away the time of our children and youth surfing the internet is not better than serving the lord or strengthening the family some young men and women are skipping church youth activities or cutting family time in order to participate in soccer leagues or to pursue various entertainments and then this statement i'll always remember some young people and i'd say all people are amusing themselves to death spiritual death amusing themselves to death now is that our zion's camp okay you know that's elder bednar seems to say that that could be our zion's camp today is this going to make it better or is it going to make you like just a lump that god can't really do much with right uh i don't i don't know you know we never want to be too harsh right but it's just more i check myself on these things like what am i doing that could be the name of my autobiography a lump that god couldn't do much with that that would be a good title for the life of hank smith um is there anything else in these sections uh john scott before we uh before we wrap up i feel like we've got some great great content great i think everybody will have an enhanced sense of zion's camp yep i think so the high council too and the high council did the high council get elevated at all in your minds i mean was this helpful anyway yeah there's a lot of high councilman jokes you know i just want to make sure that we've got we got to make sure we we just like you bri like to bring you the love of the high council oh yeah the steak presidency we want i bring you greetings and love from the stake presidency we come in scott we've been friends for a long time and i know you have been studying the history of the church and the doctrines of the church i know you said earlier i'm kind of a doctrinal guy uh i think that was a bit of an understatement when it comes to if i want to know a doctrine of the church if i'm a little bit confused uh i know that scott woodward knows he he knows he just knows this is he's made it his life study so in 25 25 years of studying and teaching uh our listeners would love to hear your thoughts on uh how you feel about joseph smith and the restoration the book of mormon and uh the temple and everything that's come from it what's it done for you yeah i can't remember what i said last time so i might repeat some some thoughts i still feel the same i still feel the same it just keeps growing you know the the reality of of humanity is that we're complex right we're complex people none of us are totally good none of us are totally bad uh we're complex and uh we as we've talked about today we need time to figure some things out and uh i think when you give the kind of charity to church leaders and the history of the church that we would hope that people would give to us uh it uh it's it's the right thing to do when you study church history it's it's the golden rule uh you know and uh and so when i study joseph smith and when i study early church history and i see some of the squabbles and the problems and the humanity and we've got a quorum of the 12 apostles early on who's going to be in their 20s and 30s they're going to be young guys uh and and they're going to have a lot of they're going to have a lot of trouble sometimes with each other sometimes with joseph and we're gonna it's gonna be complex uh you're coming up here on a few sections uh about the kirtland apostasy you're gonna get up there soon enough and we're gonna uh see that yeah there's some there are some challenges uh in in church history and they're always human problems you know and uh i'm okay with that i've come to a place in my life where i don't why would i expect anything else right the the divinity of this work is what god can do with with weak and simple people like i would include joseph smith in that he's marvelous but he's also one of the weak and simple things of the earth that uh the lord likes to work with those kind of people i remember uh president nelson saying when he was asked about you know some of the complexities of church history it was in a i think it was a a news conference and i remember his statement was yeah you're going to find a mix of of divinity and humanity in that totally then he kind of moved on next question you know uh and i just i love that matter of factness you know uh yeah you're gonna see it doctrinally sometimes you'll have you'll have uh some doctrinal errors that prophets in the past have made and and uh they they get fixed and things are gonna be all right uh brigham young said i know many times i've preached wrong and yet uh that doesn't make him not a prophet uh i have a little uh video maybe i'll be able to include a link uh in this in this uh notes or something just a just a little explainer video about how to uh become doctorally confident and knowing that there's sometimes there's there's apostles who said things that weren't true and how do you work through the complexities of that doesn't make someone not a prophet because they've made errors we saw that in section 102 right if the president makes an error then we can call for a re-hearing and that's totally in the cards right so i think sometimes we bring to the table some false assumptions about prophets and about church history we want it super sanitized and we want them just to never do wrong we want them to be amazing and we want to just cheer them on and and and and just be inspired by their every move move and every word and that's not reality right and so uh is this my wife calls this maybe a mature testimony uh where where we we kind of move past our simplistic assumptions and we can we just see things how they really are and to me that's that's the miracle of it is what what god did with some 20-somethings and 30-somethings uh in the early years of the church what he's doing today with 20-somethings and 30-somethings and octogenarians and the whole gamut he's doing with the youth of the church uh we're just a bunch of simple weak people and yet god keeps telling us you know try again and keep keep going and so i i love i love the man that i am when i when i keep the commandments of god when i try to keep my temple covenants that that i've made my baptismal covenants when i read scripture i feel profound peace and goodness and light and truth some scripture studies are better than others but i feel i feel consistently edified by them and as i step back and think you know where did all that come from most of the scriptures right besides the bible that we study and my temple covenants and i mean it all traces back to the life and ministry of joseph smith and what jesus did through this week's servant and i love the lord for it and i'm inspired beyond words for for the gift of the restoration for the prophets with my eyes wide open to the complexities and the problems and the challenges uh but for me that just i just wouldn't expect anything else of course there's humanity but but what about the divinity so i feel it's a good place i'm very comfortable in my latter day saints skin and i feel i feel like i can uh stand up for the prophets uh also with my eyes wide open to to pass weaknesses or erroneous statements or whatever and that's that's totally fine to me so i just have a testimony of god's work and and i see what it's doing in my life and then i see what is hap what's happening to those i love and then corporately right this big picture great things are happening right now we're moving in the right direction you know the lord's gonna come and uh and we're refining ourselves in preparation for him to do so yeah absolutely wonderful dr scott woodward john i'm gonna look at these sections i just i've had so much fun today with the very first uh with the very first hearing of the high council uh all the way to the end of zion's camp second one and the third one yeah so uplifted and edified and just uh enriched so we've it is it's a good day it's a good day um we want to thank everyone uh for listening of course we want to thank dr woodward uh for his time but we want to thank all of you for listening and we're grateful for you and your support john and i have said time and again this nothing like this would be happening if it weren't for you who take the time to listen uh thank you to our executive producers whom we love steve and shannon sorensen and we have a great production crew uh in jamie nielsen david perry lisa spice kyle nelson will staughton and maria hilton and we hope you all will join us for our next episode of follow him [Music] you

Channel: Our Turtle House

Views: 10,044

Rating: 4.8907852 out of 5

Keywords: follow him, follow him podcast;, followhim, churchofjesuschrist, church of jesus christ of latter-day saints, gospel study, scripture study, doctrine and covenants

Id: rIwLMF7ll58

Length: 80min 32sec (4832 seconds)

Published: Sun Sep 12 2021