Fine Tuning The Impossible Gospel of Mormonism

you like my shoes yeah I'm going to sit this year because I don't have a whole lot of energy right now good morning everybody some of you guys caught that some of you need another thing or coffee old joke yeah how many of you guys have not heard the impossible gospel for Shogun Rob Butterfield come on really everybody here has heard it that is crazy let's close in prayer know a little bit about myself before we jump into something first off we're going to do we're going to do something old old school and new school old school in the sense that I don't have a PowerPoint presentation for you guys so you're going to have to bump each other and keep each other awake new school in that I've got a video that I want to show but before I do that just a little bit about me my name is Keith Walker Becky and I started evidence ministries in 1995 I'm a full-time missionary to both Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses so I'm bicultural and it's really good because I'm able to use things and I did it last week I was able to talk about JW's with Mormons and talk about things that apply to both groups and they can look at the JW and go oh that's wrong and then later on of course you know I trust the Holy Spirit to bring it to their mind of yeah who that's wrong but that also applies to me so that's kind of handy we've been full-time missionaries since 1999 this is my 18th year here in Manti this is the absolute highlight of my year it really is I get to see family that I only see once a year and some of you guys are are closer to me than any than people in San Antonio we've lived therefore for a while I told I told somebody last night who was mission-team came in from Provo I think it was and I was staring standing next to Aaron and I said we're Blood Brothers it's just not our blood and that's kind of how I feel about you guys here this morning's is that's what this is this is this is like a family reunion I mean I'd still come at the Mormons weren't here because you know we love you guys so I think that's enough Oh two things we've got t-shirts out there on the table the t-shirts work they really do I don't in fact I only used to create the t-shirts for our team and didn't start creating more t-shirts until we started getting requests for them people liked our t-shirts and they saw that they actually did work in in conversations this one here how many of you guys have seen The Princess Bride okay it is a cult classic in more ways than one but this is the word Greek or um it's a Greek word for grace Karis I had Rob Bowman help me with that and then I had Sir rodeheaver do the image for me and of course inigo montoya is saying you keep people think that's word I do not think it means what you think it means and that's exactly what it is with the word with grace with Mormonism so they may come up and ask you know what is that word and then instantly you're in a conversation they have different definitions of grace so we've got those out on the table we also have a newsletter signup sheet I didn't want to pass that out but you can stop at the table if you want to get on our newsletter it's a free monthly thing that we send out it's really two parts first part tells you kind of what we've been up to for the last month and then the last part is a short article on either Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons and we call it that packs and briefcases anybody know why we call our newsletter that there you go that's because you that's how you figure out who they are is because Mormons wear backpacks you know why because you can't write a bike with a briefcase so when they show up at your door and you want to know what group you're talking with well that kind of gives it away it's you of the backpack or the briefcase although one time I did have some Jehovah's Witnesses come to my door in white shirts ties and backpacks and and when they mentioned the watchtower I literally did this you know because it's like Oh wrong coat you know I didn't say that but that's what went through my mind was like oh man I got to get this straight so you got to be careful with that so anyway if you're not on our newsletter list sign up for that it's free and we'd really appreciate you keep it in contact with us all right so now the new school stuff the video that you're going to see here was shot by Eric Johnson in the back there he's with Mormonism research ministry although what happened is somebody must have copied it from his channel because I don't know who this person is from the video that we're going to watch but this guy titled it something like Oh does it okay angry angry Mormon and patient Christian and I think it's amazing that he called it that because I deal with a lot of X Mormons ex-jehovah's witnesses who are atheists and they'll watch this video or see how I dialogue with people online or things like that and they say you know you are an incredibly patient person and I say you know it's very ironic that you say that because that's how I know there's a God because I am NOT an incredibly patient person this is completely God that you see so the video itself is about 40 minutes long Eric came in at about I had probably talked with this couple for about a half hour before he came in so we're only going to watch about the first little bit less than five minutes of this video and then I'm going to explain why I showed the video so let me get out of the way and go ahead and start back you [Applause] that was an extremely boring conversation yeah I have I have had the privilege to to be there when someone came to know the Lord and aside from those conversations that was by far most memorable conversation I've ever had with the Mormon I love guys like that I absolutely love guys like that because they are going to stand for what they believe in and they will argue with you until they get it and I mean give me an honest Mormon any day even if they're angry give me an honest or angry Mormon any day because that I was literally sweating at the end of that conversation because let me tell you that was work it's got a Mormon cowboy and just an incredible conversation please pray for him the girl that jumped in that was his girlfriend and she claimed to be a Christian not understanding the differences between Mormonism and Christianity so when I started off the conversation I started off and this might sound weird okay but when it comes to protecting the flock and reaching the lost I would rather protect the flock that's me because the way I see it is the flock itself is what's going to be able to reach more people than individual me reach one single Mormon so I was I was more worried for her than I was for him and it became obvious to me that I don't think I think she was a nominal Christian I don't think she she really had placed faith in Christ so at that point I started treating both of them as if they were LDS and then he kind of took over the conversation as as you saw but the reason why I show that is because I'm going to go through an outline I did not come up with the impossible gospel form and it's my only named it I learned this approach from guys like Bill McKeever Timothy Oliver Tim Martin and some unknown dude in the park in man time in the city park in Manta he went through a number of quotes with us out of the miracle of forgiveness and this was very early in our ministry when I was not I was not as educated on Mormonism as I am now so I learned disappear I just named it the impossible gospel so that's kind of what everybody calls the approach but I did not come up with it so I want to make that clear but it really took off when chip wrote his book and included one of my outlines in his chapter on the book and you can get it on his table it's the Mormon scrapbook in in my mind that is as one of the top three books that you can get on how to learn how to witness to Mormons and understand what they believe top three come on that's good I got Eric Johnson in a room here too I got to be careful so anyway get the book because it's a good book and if eric has anything on our table get his stuff too right Eric that's right amen okay so the reason why I wanted to show that video is because what has happened and I and I've been telling my teams this for the last couple of years because I noticed a problem that people it's a trap that they tend to fall into when they're teaching the impossible gospel and it was something that excuse me it was something that that Kelsey actually mentioned yesterday when she said that the approaches and the tools that we use those it's not a script okay we're not to treat it like a script we're not to treat this outline that I have here as a script in other words you don't have to start with Moroni 10:32 and in with Alma 34 although that is what I'm going to do today I've had conversations where I've actually started with elma 34 and those of you who are familiar with Alma 34 thinking okay that's a really weird place to start but that was where I believe the Holy Spirit was telling me to begin my conversation with these three or four teenage kids in in Nauvoo Illinois so there's nothing magical about this approach it is not the best way to reach Mormons there are lots of good ways to reach Mormonism on mormons this is just one of them and it doesn't have to be done in the order that I'm going through it's just that the way my mind works I'm a very systematic logical thinker so I put it together in a way that just makes sense to me now I have had conversations that did coke right down the outline I mean they brought up the the exact objection that is just happens to be in my outline I had a guy that I was witnessing with once it was on my team and he pointed that out to me after this hour-long conversation we had this Mormon guy used to keep that one perfectly I said what do you mean perfectly he said it went point by point in your outline because I'm holding the outline watching you go through this and he said exactly what you said he was going to say in the order that you said he was going to say it now that's not normal okay and and if it doesn't happen that way then then don't think that you're doing it wrong remember this is a conversation conversations are two ways this is not an outline that you rush through to try to get them to the next verse so that you can prove your point because nobody likes to be preached at in that sense so keep it a conversation in fact most of my witnessing opportunities I do I probably do more listening than I do actual speaking and the reason why I do that is because I'm allowing the Mormon to tell me what's important to them so that I can then ask questions to direct the conversation in the way that they're telling me they want to go my son and I were talking with the Mormon guy two nights ago and we were talking about the nature of God and then all of a sudden he starts talking about forgiveness so I shifted I shifted from my approach God is not a man to the impossible gospel because that was what was important to him at that time so I can't overemphasize enough that this is just a tool this it's not a script you don't have to follow it word by word line by I preset by precept you know the way the Mormons put it so take what works for you throw away the rest come up with your own questions there's nothing again there's nothing magical about the approach so how many of you have smartphones all right keep your hands up those of you who do have smartphones how many of you have the LDS gospel library on it okay those of you who put your hands down you need to put your hands back up after you download the the LDS gospel library because it is it is a great tool to use I've got it you can use it on Google and Apple devices I used to have a book bag with me and it was kind of awkward sometimes so you know let me find my teachings of the prophets Joseph Smith and my lectures on faith and my miracle of forgiveness this is what I use now just my iPad all I've got out there is my iPad and my camera and it's so much easier to witness with that tool with their own app because you open you know you got the coolness factor of the iPad right you whip out the iPad you look official and then when they see that you're using the app that a lot of them use themselves instant credibility they already know that they know the source they know where it's come from and you don't have to spend time defending the information that you're looking at because they can download the stuff right then and there if they want to so it is an incredibly effective tool to use in fact I don't know maybe one day I might put up a YouTube video and show you guys exactly how to use the gospel library in a way that you can set it up for good conversations with folks so all right there are three parts mainly to the impossible gospel Mormonism we've got our attitude we've got our approach and we've got the answers and sometimes we're too quick to give the answer we just want to go right to Jesus before the Mormon understands their position before him so we'll preach the gospel to them and a lot of times they'll agree with us that's exactly right I agree with every word that you said unfortunately what they don't understand is because we use the same terminology or similar terminology we aren't using the same dictionary so they're not understanding this so don't rush to give the answer and again there's nothing magical about the approach but what I do think is is probably more important than the approach and the answer is your attitude because we can get in the way of the message that we're preaching now I'm not going to say that you're going to be at fault for somebody going to help because you didn't preach the gospel right that's not what I'm saying what I'm saying is we can do a disservice if we with our bad attitudes treat Mormons the wrong way and like maybe the second or third year that I came here there was a guy from Las Vegas we're only going to refer to him as tank because that's kind of what he looked like it was one of those no-neck bowling-ball kind of guys and that was his approach he just rolled right over people and there was a crowd of people there was one Mormon talking to this Christian and he was kind of prowling around on the outside and it kind of came up behind the Mormon and the Mormon said something and it was almost like he whispered in his ear but it wasn't a whisper because I could hear it and he kind of leaned over to his ears and said that's why your beliefs are going to lead you to hell I have an anger problem sometimes it's righteous and that night it was I watched him walk away and I approached him and I mean he could tell right away I do not intimidate easy easily when people try to intimidate me I literally laugh but for some reason I am intimidating to people like that I walked right up to him and I said what in the world are you doing he said I'm not here preaching the gospel to Mormons I said really you love Mormons he said yeah I said you think that guy because when you told him you he was going to hell it sound like you were happy about it are you and he says no and I I'm going to mix metaphors here I slapped him a new one alright tore him a new one because in in love but I was angry and he knew it he knew that what he did was wrong in the way that he treated the Mormon now I have told Mormons that they're going to hell but it's usually in a response to a question that they've asked me and I tell them are you sure you want the answer to this you know I got a smile on my face or a tear in my eye when I'm telling them that but I'm never happy about that message because that is eternity we're unforgiving people go and if we let our attitude get in the way of that we have done a disservice to Mormons so I'm going to illustrate that with a verse go to Ephesians 4:15 I'm going to read it out of the King James because that's what the Mormons use here Ephesians 4:15 since but speaking the truth in love may grow up into him in all things which is the head even Christ and he tells us to speak the truth in love right sometimes what I like to do is I like to change scripture I know that sounds weird but I change it so that you can see what it doesn't say by John 14:6 you know Jesus said I am the way the truth and the life and no man comes to the Father except except through Joseph Smith Jesus didn't say that okay but in a way that's how Mormons think so if you change the verse to fit their theology and then you speak it to them it's kind of shocking so I want to change Ephesians 4:15 instead of speaking the truth in love I want to read it as speaking the truth is love if we treat this verse that way that speaking the truth is love what would that imply this is the audience participation time was that speaking the truth is love so what does that imply exactly doesn't matter what I say or how I say it it's loving because I'm telling you the truth but that's not what the verse says the verse doesn't say speaking the truth is love it says it says to do it and then it tells you how to do it speak the truth but do it in love not that speaking the truth is love and of course speaking the truth is a loving thing but we have to make sure that we are doing it in a winsome way that the Mormon understands that we're doing this out of love and I've had numerous Mormons tell me I appreciate you're out here because I understand why you're out here I don't agree with you I don't agree with with what you believe about Mormonism and what you believe about the future of those who are invested in it but I do understand your heart and I appreciate you being out here that's common ground right there folks because they're understanding that that that we love them as people and we often tell them how we treat Mormon missionaries when we come or when they come to our homes I mean we feed these guys we've had these guys come over to our house because they were hungry seriously that's not a joke for Mormon missionaries went out to lunch only three of them had enough money for food the fourth one sat there and watched the three of them eat he then came up with a great idea I know let's go over to the Walker's house they said yeah that's pretty cool family let's go they came over to our house and the fourth one just happened to drop that story about yeah I didn't get lunch today boom immediately what's Becky doing she's in the kitchen what do you want we got left we have a veal call we have an eel called Verl various random leftovers the kids asked us what are we having for dinner we're having Verrel it's like okay you know whatever that is today well that's what that's what that Mormon missionary had that day he had virile and he was happy for it we treat these guys with love not only at home but also out there on the streets Mormons see that our attitude is extremely important okay now the approach the approach again the impossible gospel Mormonism it's a number of verses out of the Book of Mormon and the Bible excuse me in the Doctrine covenants we don't get to the Bible till later excuse me that's the answer part but what we do with the how many of you guys are four are familiar with formal logic okay got a few you alright you guys know what a reductio ad absurdum is my says my son the 14 year old oh you said that I'm sorry you are not my son and you are now 14 years old [Laughter] not my son just forgive me basically to dumb it down a reductio ad absurdum is you want to start in a certain place with an argument and you follow that argument to its logical conclusion and if the ending place is a bad place then your beginning place was a bad beginning alright so what you're doing is you're assuming something is true following it through and if you end up in a bad argument you know in a bad place that doesn't make sense then then that means that your starting place is not true that's what this argument is the whole impossible gospel argument is we're not telling Mormons that they're wrong if you noticed in the video he even said you haven't said you haven't said anything about why I'm wrong or why you're wrong or whatever and all you're doing is question me on this stuff when I could get a word in edgewise but that's what we want to do with this approach is I'm not going to come right out and tell them that they're wrong I'm going to I'm going to I'm going to imagine that what they say is correct we're going to follow it through to its logical conclusion and if the conclusion ends in a really really bad place like maybe impossibility then that means that the starting place is not a good starting place where start somewhere else somewhere else once the Mormon understands that then they start asking questions and that excuse me that's when we can get to the answers because now they're asked instead of well what do you believe it's well then how do you think you're forgiven you could say that same phrase with two completely different tones one of them is going to get an answer for me and the other one won't because I want to make sure that they're ready to hear that answer and before they're ready to hear that answer they've got to understand that they're lost and I keep I say this every year to people you've got to get them lost before you can get them saved because Mormons believe that that they are the one true church they're more they're more Christian than we are that they're the only true Christians we're just apostate Christians so they have to understand their real condition before God before their ears are open to hear the real answers so usually where we start is from our own eye 10:32 so if you guys this sounds really weird to say this in a Bible Church but open up your copies of the Book of Mormon to Moroni chapter 10 verse 32 chip says it's very important to have a copy of the Book of Mormon absolutely that's why I mentioned earlier too to have that app if you've got a smart device to be able to have that on there because Mormons they their eighth article of faith says that we believe the Bible to be the Word of God insofar that it's translated correctly and what that really means is if you can show them a verse that disagrees with their Mormon theology then that's one of those mistranslated verses so if you've got a book of Mormon and you can make a point with them out of that they're never going to question its validity they may question your interpretation of it but never its validity and that's why we encourage people to ask questions in fact that's one of the best things you can do is ask questions instead of telling them what the verse means ask them what it means so you're using their definition if they're not quite getting the sense of what the verse actually says ask more clarifying questions so that they can finally get you know exactly what it is that we're trying to get them to see Merlin like 1032 says yay coming to Christ and be perfected in him and deny yourselves of all ungodliness and if you shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness and love God with all your might mind and strength then is His grace sufficient for you that by His grace he may be perfect in Christ and if by the grace of God your perfect skin Christ you can and know why it's deny the power of God now I will ask them what does that verse mean and a lot of times they don't know they'll just kind of look at it and go oh you know because it is kind of wording so I'll just ask them a clarifying question did you notice the if-then statement there it's a conditional statement did you notice that and they're kind of look for it and then so it would be good to end your copies of the Book of Mormon underline the if underline the then if you do this then you get this and then again just start asking questions what are the requirements for grace there's four things love God with all your might all your mind all your strength deny yourself of all ungodliness that's the one we want to focus on is the denial of all ungodliness but then you ask the question well when does the grace apply remember there's that if then the then is conditional upon the if the then does not come first the if does if this then this so what I what I want them to see is that they have to according their own scriptures deny themselves of all ungodliness now that might not mean much to them so again ask more clarifying questions what would your life look like if you denied yourself of all ungodliness and I've had people say well you know I guess I'd be a pretty good person and I say pretty good remember all ungodliness you don't have the any more ungodliness in your life to deny what would you be they they're telling me well you'd be perfect and I've had some people say well you're trying to make sound like I got to be perfect so in the wait a minute can you deny yourself of all ungodliness and be imperfect is that possible well no I had one kid say what's ungodliness that's all you know what godliness is he said yeah it's not that he says oh yeah I get it yeah real simple I do that to my kids all the time they hate it but who's the focus on if if what who's going to do the work here that's why the the Mormon cowboy was just incredulous like are you kidding me that because of what Jesus did you have this you betcha absolutely he's probably one of the most honest Mormons I've ever spoken to in my life to love the guy wish I could run into him again with some backup so point out that their whole eternity really focuses on that word if if they do this then they get that what is that that they get it's the grace that's sufficient and they'll admit that we have grace or that we need grace but there's an insufficient grace and there's a sufficient grace in the insufficient grace is the grace that kind of helps us keep the commandments but the sufficient grace is that which covers everything once you have met the requirements for it so again we need to point out that we're not the ones telling them they have to be perfect this is what Moroni is saying they're very familiar with maroney's promise in Moroni 10 verses three through five well this is Moroni is last promise if you do this then you get this the next verse that I often go to is a second Nephi 25 23 this is probably the most notorious verse in the Book of Mormon and Mormon scholars particularly those from BYU have been trying to distance themselves from the obvious meaning of this verse and I actually heard a new one a couple of days ago I'll tell you about that in a second first I'm going to read this for we labor diligently to write to persuade our children and also our brethren to believe in Christ and to be reconciled to God for we know that it is by grace that we are saved comma after all we can do again where's that focus after all you can do okay.we but to make it personal after all you can do now I heard a really creative interpretation of that verse a couple of days ago one of heck I forget who list but anyway the Mormon that he was talking to the Mormon said well you know what that really means is after all we can do were saved by grace kind of softens the blow right after after all we can do then Jesus comes in and he gives us his grace what he's done is he's reversed the order of what the verse says and the guy who was talking to him did a great job because he immediately went to Moroni 1032 and showed him the if-then statement if this then that we've got the same if-then statement here basically I mean it's a conditional it's not if-then in the same way that Moroni 10 32 is but it is conditional because we're saved by grace when only after it doesn't come before Becky likes to ask the question you know well what really is all you can do I mean how long did you pray this morning 5-10 minutes could you prayed six or 11 I mean really how how far are we going to take this because I can as I sit here before you today I can honestly tell you that there isn't a day in my life that I've done all I can do it's just not gonna I Drive myself nuts if I tried to do all I could do all the time I honestly don't believe we were created for that but maybe created for it but after the fall something else happened and and that's just something that I'm incapable of doing at this point but you've really got to get them to see that it's it's that grace it asked them to sometimes that you need to define words you know what do you mean by grace william ii by saved because I've had Mormon say oh oh yeah this is this everybody saved there was a guy last night saying that everybody's saved what he's talking about there is general salvation you guys understand the difference between general salvation and exaltation good okay for those of you who are watching on YouTube who don't general salvation is just resurrection and everybody's going to be resurrected everybody with a physical body will be resurrected that is done by grace you don't even have to know the name of Jesus to be able to be resurrected and it doesn't take any faith on your part because it's going to happen to you whether you want it or not but the grace that's sufficient for exaltation the grace that we need to be forgiven that's different in the end of the Bible dictionary in the LDS quad defines grace as an enabling power that's something that helps us do what we need to do in other words it's the power that we need to keep the commandments so when a Mormon says in that sense that they are saved by grace what they're what they are saying is because of the power that God has given them to keep the commandments that's why they're saved they're not focusing on their individual efforts they're focusing on that power that has been given to them so that they can do what they need to do so in the mind of the Mormon they can honestly say they're saved by grace but they're not quite catching apart that it's still dependent upon what you do it's still dependent on you as to whether or not you are forgiven now I really focus a lot on this verse because I want them to see that it's only after you do it you don't get the grace before it's only after and I mean when my kids were really really small you know I would tell my kids well you can only have your dessert after you're finished with your vegetables had one guy tell me one time you know you keep focusing on that word after you're inserting a time element here obviously what else can the word after mean unless there's a time involved but you know I told my daughter she's like 3 or 4 I said you know honey you're not gonna you're not going to get your dessert until after you're done with your vegetables so she takes her plate pushes the weights as I'm done like no that's not what I meant now my son he'll he'll interpret that differently he starts double-fisting at you know a wound boom world huh no just to be me yeah it's our job dads have to be mean sometimes he keeps kids on their toes so second Nephi 25 23 again it's a sticky verse and Mormons have tried to interpret it differently they've tried to say things like we're saved by grace in spite of all we can do which is kind of what the guy was saying the other night you know after all we do we're saved by grace but that is never how this verse is interpreted in Mormon Church manuals and in General Conference now there's another app I'm going to tell you guys about it's called Citation Index if you don't have it downloaded Citation Index and the reason why that is so important is because what you can do is you can type in a verse out of out of any of the four standard works and what that app will do is it will tell you where those verses have been quoted in General Conference now why is that important General Conference is something that Mormons do once every six months and I've heard countless Mormons tell me that their canon of Scripture is added to every six months and what they mean by that is they are literally getting what they believe are the words of God through their prophets and apostles their prophet seals seers and Revelator's in General Conference so General Conference holds wait two morons so if you can show them where they have used certain verses in General Conference and how that is applied how that is interpreted then it's no longer me telling them what second Nephi 25:23 means it's their General Authorities saying what 2nd Nephi 2523 means and it's never the way the guys that do why you say it it's always the way that we're talking about it here this morning so let's go to a next verse here alma 1137 i have a favorite chapter in the Book of Mormon and this is it Alma chapter 11 because there are three really good subjects that you can delve into one God the Trinity and this issue here about forgiveness of sins this one is important because of how its interpreted and how you can get Mormons to see the problem it says then I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins for I cannot deny his word and you said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven therefore how can he be saved except you inherit the kingdom of heaven therefore you cannot be saved in your sins now again there's a number of questions I like to go through if Jesus won't save you in your sins and what condition do you need to be in before he'll save you yeah what's the opposite of in oh you've got to be out of your sins and I had one marm and tell me well if I can be out of my sins what why do I need Jesus I said that is a great question and if my church taught that I'd be asking more questions because this is supposedly about Jesus not my performance what he did what he did for me not what I do for him I have I don't have the ability to please him so that I can earn my way as that Worman cowboy was saying how did you earn it I didn't earn it it just blew his mind he'd never he'd never understood that before now the distinction between in and from is this you've got if you're in your sins that means you're currently guilty for them from your sins you saved from your sins which sins which sins are you saved from Spencer W Kimball in the inside of October 1982 the articles told was called the gospel of repentance he makes the distinction listen how he puts it but if we do not repent then the Lord clearly lets us know that there will be discipline and a denial of blessing in advancement the Lord teaches that he cannot forgive people in their sins he can only save them from their abandoned sins Wow it's inside October 1982 and the article is called the gospel of repentance by Spencer W Kimball so it's only our abandoned sins that God saves us from because if you haven't abandoned him then where are you you're still living so you've got to get out of your sins before he will save you that's kind of like saying you know you've got to get out of the water before I'm going to save you from drowning right now I use that later on as an example okay my Jesus is not a swimming coach he's a lifeguard we're going to talk about a little bit later but that's very important that they that the Mormon gets that distinction in Alma 11:37 we're not saved from our sins only the abandoned ones because we're still in those sins wow what a heavy burden we're again where's the emphasis on what he does or what I have to do it's on what I have to do now probably about a month ago a month to half a month and a half ago I had a sort of a revelation Becky and I were disciple a young Mormon couple who they left Mormonism a number of years ago we're starting to go back and ended up in our church and just happen to come to our Sunday School class we go to a mega church okay we're talking like you know upwards of 10,000 people over a weekend kind of mega church so what are the odds that they're going to end up in our Sunday School class we actually weren't there that Sunday but based off of something that the the guy had said afterwards our Sunday school teacher was sharp enough to understand that he was a Mormon or at least with a Mormon background and he said you got to come back next week because there's this couple you got to me well we've been disciple in them and the lady was was listening to Becky talk about the gospel because they're still kind of fuzzy on the gospel and it occurred to me that that there was still somewhat of a language barrier that that we were having because no matter how we were explaining the gospel she was still saying yes I understand this yes I believe this but then she would say things that would communicate to you that she really wasn't getting it and what occurred to me is that old-school Mormonism has start like the cowboy okay rural Utah is totally different then then a lot of other place eleven Mormons in a lot of other places especially you know Texas Mormons they don't have the same culture so old-school Mormonism says yeah I have to work before I get right I have to earn you heard him say it he said the word earned but our friend when I asked this question I said are you telling me that you need to earn your forgiveness that Jesus has done his work and you need to add to it because his work is incomplete he's waiting for your part or that Jesus has done everything and you need to make yourself worthy enough to receive it and she said the second one I said okay we've we've made some headway here now in the mind of the Christian it's the same result okay because it's still dependent upon you it's still dependent upon your works but what we found out in that conversation is we needed to be more careful with how we were presenting the gospel because by saying things like Jesus did it all or I can't add anything to my salvation she was agreeing with those statements so we needed to reword it and say about your worthiness what position do you need to be in before you can accept what Jesus has done for you oh I have to do this this this this and this she wasn't making the connection so I bring that story to you so that you can realize that maybe sometimes we need to be a little bit more careful and how we're wording things because the more minutes the Mormon that you're talking to maybe the kind of Mormon who says yeah I just need to be worthy enough to receive not worthy enough to earn again same difference in the mind of the Christian but a world of difference in how we are communicating that you guys get what I'm saying here okay good all right so let's move on to first Nephi 3 7 now this is actually the linchpin of the whole argument alright we've looked at three different verses Moroni 1032 Loma 25 23 or 25 25 23 and Alma Levin 37 those all pretty much say the same thing first Nephi 37 nails it down because they may say things like I'm trying my best I'm doing what I can you know Jesus I do my best Jesus says the rest kind of thing but first Nephi 37 puts a different emphasis on it and it came to pass that I need fie said unto my father go and do the things which the LORD have commanded for I know that the Lord giveth no Commandments to the children of men safe he shall prepare away for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commanded them now I'll ask the Mormon what does it mean and this is a scripture mastery verse so most Mormons know this verse if not by heart so I'll kind of play a game especially if I'm talking with a bunch of teenagers I'll say you know hey it's a scripture Master River so you should know this and if you don't know this you haven't done all you can do they kind of laugh at that and they said well how does it start and I say well I tell you what you know I've got a quarter of the Book of Mormon memorized that you really you've memorized 25% of the Book of Mormon absolutely and it came to pass [Laughter] now I told that joke to a Mormon and he said actually that's only 2.1 percent I'm like that's still a lot you know I can't believe he actually went through and figured that out you know just the fact that it appears so many times that he wanted to know the percentage you know that that says something but anyway they'll kind of go through it they'll memorize it or it and they'll it's almost like they race to see who can finish the verse quickest and then I'll ask them what does it mean and then they kind of look at you like well gee you give me credit I know what the verse was you know so you just ask the question is it possible for God to give you a commandment you can't keep and they say well no well why not well because it says right here God doesn't give any Commandments to the children of men say he's going to he's going to prepare a way that they can do the thing that he wants them to do so we call this the Nike verse you know just do it you can do it it's all up to you so that's how we nail this down because the commandments God gives to you are the commandments that you can keep why because he's not going to tell you to do anything that you can't do did he tell you to deny yourself of all and godliness yep did he tell you to do all you can do yep did he tell you that you can't be saved in your sins implying you got a Fiat Ervil yeah those are commandments so the very fact that he gave you that commandment tells you what about God in his expectations of you Nike you can do it you can do these things he's told you to do otherwise you would have told you to do it so here's the golden question how's it working out for you how you doing is one of my old t-shirts matthew 5:8 you know you know that'd be perfect thing how you doing with that how is it working out oh well you know that's kind of hard you know we only doing the best I can does this say to do your best the best that you can well no but you know we all have their certain weaknesses I have that maybe you don't have and certain strengths that I have that maybe you don't have so God doesn't necessarily expect all the same thing so are you telling me that God does not expect us to keep the commandments oh no no no that's not what I'm saying so we do need to keep the commandments yes which ones all of them how often all the time we had a couple of sister missionaries in our home and I asked her those same questions how often just as all the time I said let me get this straight unless I keep all the commandments all the time I'm not forgiving and she says I like it better the way I say it well yeah you know I just have this gift or curse of boiling things down to its most simplest component and if that's really what's expected of me I've got to keep all the commandments all the time then really who is saved one of my former t-shirts says you know I've never met a Mormon I know I never met a Mormon who knows they're forgiven that's the most offensive t-shirt I've ever created right it's really on the line there I don't mind being on the line I'm not going to cross it but it's right there I had a guy come up to me and say you know that shirt is offensive I said trust me you'd be more offended if I took it off that's what he did he laughed now it's really hard for somebody to be mad at you if they're laughing with you right so we had a good 45-minute conversation at the end of the conversation he's still in like my shirt but he liked me and I hey that's a win in my book right but he understood the point by the end of the conversation under he understood why I had created that t-shirt another kid comes up to me and says I'm your first like what are you talking about give me a context here this is your t-shirt okay it didn't realize what sure does work you're my first way I'm your first Mormon who knows that he's forgiven I said really he said yeah so we kind of go it started going through some things are you still repenting yeah wait of what sin okay so if you're still repenting of sin then what does that imply you know because you can only be forgiving of repentance in right right so then are you really forgiving he swell no I guess that I'm only forgiving of my repentance and but I'm still working on the other ones I said okay he's well I know another Mormon I said who he said Jesus Jesus was a Mormon and he's forgiven I said of what he goes that's a good point you know you hear that phrase Jesus was a Mormon and everybody's like uh Napa ma no I'm focused with forgiving for what is this sinless son of God he's perfect you didn't do anything wrong so this t-shirt still holds true I've never met a Mormon who knows they're forgiven and yet they can do it but they don't why don't they you see this is where we're going with this I want them to see that they are expected to do this but they don't have the ability to do it they think they do but they really don't and that's what we're helping them understand you skip a couple of slides here just for sake of time my doctor and Covenants section 1 31 sorry Emma Fraser dr. covenant section 1 verses 31 through 33 there's an editor video that somebody took where I'm talking with a Chinese Mormon named dated and and we were kind of going back and forth over these verses here this is for I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance nevertheless he that were tensed and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven excuse me now check that phrase out he that repents and does the commandments of the Lord all right now remember the Mormons talking about grace as a power to keep the commandments and that grace that covers repentance in right so if you repent reach that point of no-return that Aaron was talking about yesterday in his dialogue then those past sins are forgiven what about the future sins there shouldn't be any future sins why because you're keeping the commandments he that keeps the commandments right who healed that repents and does the commandments shall be forgiven so that obedience covers the future if you're obeying you're not sinning so as long as you're on that track then God is forgiving your past sin right so often what people will say is you know well I'm trying I'm doing my best I mean I can only do what what God expects me to do which is keeping the commandments I'll read I'll remind them and I'll ask them have you ever kept a commandment and they'll say yeah and I said well then that was your best so have you ever really forsaken and I want to get too personal with you but have you ever really truly forsaken a sin and I had a Mormon tell me yes smoking I I used to smoke and now I'm not a smoker and I said great that's awesome now what about all the other sins because you're forgiven for the sin of smoking but what about everything else you've got to work on those kinds of things and I don't I don't stick it in their face like you know nanny nanny boo-boo whatever but I want them to understand that this is what's expected of them according to Mormonism is that they've got to forsake each sin now often what they'll say is but I can repent I can I can repent of my sins ask the question what does repentance mean it's usually divided into five sections okay sorrow first in abandonment of sin confession of sin restitution for sin and doing the will of the Father or keeping the commandments the one that we focus on the most is the abandonment of sin there was a guy I talked to last year who was not quite getting this right and so what we did was we likened this to a pie alright and there's five ingredients to this pie and unless you have each of those ingredients what you're making is not a pie it's a mess and one of the most important ingredients is the abandonment of sin because what happens if you don't abandon your sin you're not forgiven because you're still in your sins on 1137 so you've got to abandon those sins excuse me so so what's good to go to sometimes and you guys can go to its DNC 58 42 and 43 I don't have that in my slides here I know you're not seeing my slides but I don't have it and what I'm saying is I don't have it in my notes so I'm making this up as I go on but DNC 58 42 says by this you may know from an repented of his sins behold he will confess them and forsake them confess and forsake so if you don't forsake then that means you didn't really repent so ask the question is it possible to be forgiven if you haven't repented well no okay so it so how do we know that how do we know if some was truly repented they forsaken their sin and I had a Mormon lady tell me one time that she didn't sin for a year yeah we were sitting in the park in the Manti city park and I'm I'm under the pavilion there and I've got my laptop in front of me and I'm writing out some prayer requests said I'm going to email to my mom so that she can send him out to our team back home we're praying for us and there was this family that had camped out in the in the northwest corner of the park where all the Christians normally hang out you know called the Christian ghetto affectionately right well this family evidently didn't get the memo and pitched their tents right amongst ours and usually most most Mormons only stay for one night then they're gone the next morning well this this family was on a family reunion so they stayed for more than one night and it didn't take them very long to figure out who we were you know you're one you're wearing one of these and in Utah and they know who you are and they don't like you or if you're wearing a Christian t-shirt okay I know who you are so she was upset with her adult daughter and she's like practically yelling at her while she's underneath the and on the other side of the pavilion and she says but don't they know about James chapter two faith without works is dead her daughter evidently got tired to listen to her and went into the tent so this lady marches right over to me and sits down right in front my laptop and I'm thinking Lord I'm on this mission trip I'm trying to get things done with you you keep giving me these Mormons to talk to so we talked for like a couple of hours and that's when she laid it on me that she hadn't because we're talking about repentance and she says I haven't sinned for a year and there's two normal responses to that you know the first of which is what you guys are all thinking now yeah right now I want to be like that right no way right and then the other response if you're a Mormon and you're believer is quote I want to be like that how do I do that well I didn't have either response I've been accused of being able to think outside the box and I don't know what box you're talking about so I looked at her and I said I said that's horrible so we talked about I just told you I didn't sin for years ma'am I know I heard what you said but I could be one of the worst things I've ever heard in my life she said what are you talking about I told didn't send for a year I said ma'am what why'd you start again you've just shown me the difference between temporarily stopping sin and forever forsaking sin and of which are you required to do and she said to forsake my sin now what I said next is going to sound really harsh but she understood me I said and then you don't have a whole lot of time left because she's like in her 80s she was not offended by that because she knew that that by that time that I genuinely cared for this lady but she made that distinction very clear that the forsaking of sin is what counts not the temporary the temporary stopping its the forever forsaking some Mormons will say that oh yeah I repent every day and they're proud of that I don't get that why are you proud of sinning every day I didn't say send every day well then what are you repenting from Joseph Smith himself said that daily repentance is not pleasing in the sight of God it's in the teaching of the Prophet Joseph Smith some Mormons should not be happy with the idea that they are repenting every day this is something that needs to be taken care of in this life and alma 34 explains that this is a long passage I'm going to read through this hope my voice holds out so flip to Alma 11:30 I'm sorry Alma chapter 34 I'm going to read the whole thing and there's a certain phrase that I want you to keep count of okay the phrase or form of the phrase this life alright so for behold this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God yeah behold the day of this life is a day for men to perform their labors and now as I said to you before as I've as you have so many witnesses therefore I beseech of you that you do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end for after this day of life which is given for us to prepare to preacher II behold if we do not improve our time while in this life then cometh the night of darkness where and there can no labor be performed you cannot say when you are brought to that to that awful crisis that I will repent that I will return to my god now you cannot say this for that same spirit which does possess your bodies at the time that you go out of this life that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world for behold if you procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death behold you have become subjected to the spirit of the devil and he does seal you his therefore the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you and have no place in you the devil has all power over you and this is the final state of the wicked Mormons use this passage to other Mormons who are threatening to leave Mormonism and they use it by saying if you leave Mormonism this is your fate sealed to Satan but this isn't just about leaving Mormonism this is about those who have yet to complete their repentance what is completed repentance look like the abandonment of sin remember it's those five steps have got to accomplish those five steps otherwise they are unrepentant and what happens to unrepentant Mormons they're not forgiven now the Mormons thinking it's okay I can get a lower Kingdom you know lower level of Kingdom the Book of Mormon doesn't teach this the Book of Mormon teaches that you're either with God or you're with the devil subjected to him even more importantly that sealed to him that weren't very important to a Mormon because they want to be sealed to their families for all time and eternity it's all about the family I had a Mormon tell me that last week it's all about the family I said no it's all about Jesus I'm adopted into gods family it's not about me having my own family being sealed together it's a big difference between Jesus and earthly families but to think that for I'm forever sealed to Satan that's a daunting thought is to get a 16 year old kid I said have you have you completed your repentance he says well no I said well how long have you been a Mormon he says I got baptized when I was a tested so you procrastinate 'dear repentance for eight years and you know he'd never thought of that now of course I'm not expecting an eight you know 16 year old kid to completely conquer his sin problem but according to Mormonism it's possible because God isn't going to give you a commandment that you can't keep notice this says that it's the final state of the wicked not temporary it says there's no labor performed there so you can't work now there are some general authorities who will say that you can repent in the afterlife it's contrary to what the Book of Mormon says but there are teaching manuals that say yes we can accomplish our repentance in the afterlife but they always say two things in the process they'll tell you that you can't do it here all right it's impossible to do it here but we can do it in the afterlife so I ask the question how do you do this in the afterlife and they'll go into detail about well you know it's kind of hard to to repent of certain sins because certain sins require a physical body so you it's harder to repent of those kinds of sins but we're able we're able to do that but but it is harder in the spirit world so we'll let me let me get this straight it's impossible to do it now but it's harder to do it in the spirit world and I'm looking forward to that they haven't put that together in their minds so they're looking forward to doing something that's harder than impossible if it's impossible in this life how in the world can I do it in the next life when it's harder they haven't thought of that ask the question are you comfortable with your position before God right now knowing that you're still in your sin knowing that you're still repenting not that you have repented past tense but that you are still repenting present-tense are you comfortable with that knowing that the Book of Mormon teaches that you're going to be sealed to Satan let them wrestle with that lay that part on thick your whole eternity hangs on the word if if you do this it's all that you can do you've got to be out of your sins you can do this God isn't going to look at sin in the least degree of allowance he's not going to give that to you because he holds these sins against us we're only saved from our forsaken sin not the sins that we're still committing today under those conditions really who can be saved at that point they're able to listen to your gospel presentation because they want to know how do I get out of this this is a mess how can I do this so you're able to preach in a way that they are their defenses are down because they want to hear how can you do this how in the world do you know you're forgiven I like to take them to Romans chapter 10 and we'll end with this I'm going to read it out of the new American Standard just because that's the translation that I like to read the most this is again Romans chapter 10 I like to refer to Romans as the most inspired book of the Bible my wife thinks it's Hebrews now this is Paul talking to Israel all right but this could be us talking to the Mormon sorry brethren my heart's desire and prayer to God for them is for their salvation for I testify about them that they have a zeal of God they have a zeal for God but not according to knowledge for not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own does that sound like Mormonism and seeking to establish their own they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God for Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes it's about trusting and what Christ has done and not trying to make ourselves worthy to receive what he has done we are not worthy to receive it John tells us that we are enemies to God is it John or Romans 8 I don't remember one of those I know that Ephesians says that we are sons of disobedience we are we are enemies of God children of Wrath God saves us in that conduct actually it is Romans chapter 5 well that's that's verse 8 the one I'm referring to is I went to eight again flip over I told you it was a long one more but I lied Romans chapter 5 verse 10 for if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of his son much more having been reconciled we shall be saved by his life that is a foreign concept to Mormons Mormons think of themselves as children of God the Bible says were his enemies outside of Christ we are his enemies make that point to them have you ever considered yourself an enemy of God well no what is what is Paul saying Romans if God can save me while I'm an enemy how in the world can I make myself worthy how in the world can I earn it I can't that's God and I've got to come to him on his terms by faith coming to Christ knowing that the work he did for me is enough Jesus is sufficient for all that I need because I can't do it myself so I thought I probably gone over a couple of minutes extra if you guys have any questions catch me afterwards I love to teach on this subject and Mormons do get this if you spend enough time explaining it so let me close in prayer then I guess you've got more announcements Lord God thank you for thanks for this opportunity and thanks for all the Christian missionaries who are out here Lord I pray that you would give us great conversations tonight that you bring out Mormons we're going to match up with those personality-wise it would keep the enemy off the streets and that there would not be any contention whatsoever please continue to heal those of us who have not been feeling well and get us out there in in your full strength so that you can so that we can do your work it's in Jesus name we pray [Applause]

Channel: Aaron Shafovaloff

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Length: 76min 25sec (4585 seconds)

Published: Mon Jun 26 2017